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FredRydr
December 16th, 2019, 05:10 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/12/smarter-living/how-to-argue-on-the-internet-without-losing-your-mind.html

"...it’s important to stop when you can see that the argument has become toxic, because it will only get worse from there. “Prevent downward spirals. Don’t participate in toxic discussions. Nothing good will come out of it...”.

In depth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5791909/

Fermata
December 16th, 2019, 06:40 AM
Fury behind the glass, until the glass has been removed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvz7nboJ0kg

Thank you for posting the two articles.

azkid
December 16th, 2019, 07:30 AM
That article had some good lessons for me, thanks. It's absolutely true about the bad mood. Oof.

Coincidentally, my daughter and I just saw an episode of Brainchild that demonstrates the disinhibition effect. (Such a great show, young or old).

arrow
December 16th, 2019, 08:35 AM
I wish they never started to use the word troll or trolldom, it generally means magic.

Dreck
December 16th, 2019, 08:37 AM
Thanks for linking the actual research article, Fred!

Stands on Feet
December 16th, 2019, 09:40 AM
I wish they never started to use the word troll or trolldom, it generally means magic.

Actually, I think it refers to fishing. Trolls aren't magic, but they are mythological.

Chrissy
December 16th, 2019, 10:13 AM
Thanks Fred. An interesting read. :)

On FPGeeks it's quite easy to avoid trolls. Just switch on the Ignore button. :) Settings > Edit Ignore List. :)

Fermata
December 16th, 2019, 11:40 AM
and never be tempted to click View Post just to have a look anyway.

Fermata
December 16th, 2019, 11:42 AM
I wish they never started to use the word troll or trolldom, it generally means magic.

Actually, I think it refers to fishing. Trolls aren't magic, but they are mythological.

Just looked it up, you can see why the word has been used for internet

The English noun "troll" in the standard sense of ugly dwarf or giant dates to 1610 and comes from the Old Norse word "troll" meaning giant or demon. The word evokes the trolls of Scandinavian folklore and children's tales: antisocial, quarrelsome and slow-witted creatures which make life difficult for travellers.

Empty_of_Clouds
December 16th, 2019, 12:07 PM
The important part - and one that nearly everyone overlooks when condemning people of trollish behaviour - is the intent. A troll, by definition, has the intention of being disruptive for the sake of it.

Jon Szanto
December 16th, 2019, 12:45 PM
The important part - and one that nearly everyone overlooks when condemning people of trollish behaviour - is the intent. A troll, by definition, has the intention of being disruptive for the sake of it.

Certainly, to an extent, but the history of online discussion groups is littered with enormous and bloated threads full of unending bickering from multiple parties, each of which thinks they are engaging with only the best of intentions. That they continue, on and on and on, shows a lack of insight into the nature of disengagement.

It's the old "I can't come to bed, there is someone wrong on the Internet" concept. Let's just say there are meta- or proto-trollish behaviors that any one of us can fall into, as well.

Empty_of_Clouds
December 16th, 2019, 01:36 PM
People will sometimes argue their side of a discussion with varying degrees of belligerance and self-certitude, but that is not at all the same as what a troll does - in terms of intention.

In my opinion, there is a very real danger that the term "troll" will be invoked at some point in any heated discussion; perhaps as a kind of amendment to Godwin's Law.

Jon Szanto
December 16th, 2019, 02:01 PM
My point is that the concept of intention is fairly pointless if people continue to beat a dead horse ad nauseum, completely overlooking the pointless aspects of unchecked repetition and bottom-line ineffectiveness. The property of disengagement is so important in many ways, and one of the most important is simply knowing when to let something drop when you realize nothing will come of continuing. When confronted with threads that scroll on, page after page and no progress is to be had, it becomes rather unimportant if a troll is involved.

But, yes, conflating that with trolldom won't help, either. I was merely speaking to some of the other points in the article. And, with that, I'll bow out.

arrow
December 16th, 2019, 03:30 PM
Actually, I think it refers to fishing. Trolls aren't magic, but they are mythological.

Oh, they are ;-)

In norse folklore Trolls came in many forms, in the stories refering to them they vary a lot. Trolldom litterally means magic in Scandinavian languages. Words like sorcerer and magician can usually be translated with trollmann (trollmann). Jotner, trolls, etc. had magic. In fairytales they turn up in many forms, difficult and more good willed, living along side human kind.

I shouldn't side track too much, it's an important subject and I agree with the inutital poster. I hope we can keep having an open mind reading posts as well as taking care when responding to them. Taking a step back and consciously not add to a difficult situation regardless of who is involved can be what solves it in some cases.

Fermata
December 17th, 2019, 04:26 AM
My point is that the concept of intention is fairly pointless if people continue to beat a dead horse ad nauseum, completely overlooking the pointless aspects of unchecked repetition and bottom-line ineffectiveness. The property of disengagement is so important in many ways, and one of the most important is simply knowing when to let something drop when you realize nothing will come of continuing. When confronted with threads that scroll on, page after page and no progress is to be had, it becomes rather unimportant if a troll is involved.

But, yes, conflating that with trolldom won't help, either. I was merely speaking to some of the other points in the article. And, with that, I'll bow out.

Good point.

I have seen people openly admit that they start an argument or nitpick on the tiniest detail just because they have time on their hands, they want some banter without giving any consideration to the effect on others or even if there is any point to their comments. Their intention, well I dont really know, perhaps to pass some time or to have something else to respond to in an hour or so,

Intention is a very difficult area to understand if you dont have the same mind set as the person doing the posting. Interpretation is often crosswired when you only have a few lines to form an opinion, it is easy to make mistakes.

Deb
December 17th, 2019, 06:03 AM
I don't think that what happened here recently and by the same person several times before is really an example of trolling in the usual sense. It is more an unwillingness to allow the other person the last word and an absolute conviction that he is right. Of course he may be right - probably is, given the quality of his research but the unwillingness to allow even the slightest compromise is unpleasant and tiresome. There may be some element of trolling in that he enjoys the interminable and relentless arguing - I can only assume he must do, otherwise why persist? Considering that they do not seem to hold each other in high regard, the style of debate ( if it can be honoured in that way!) is similar to that employed by David Isaacson, equally arrogant and irritating.

As has been said above, don't be drawn in.

Chrissy
December 17th, 2019, 06:50 AM
I don't think that what happened here recently and by the same person several times before is really an example of trolling in the usual sense. It is more an unwillingness to allow the other person the last word and an absolute conviction that he is right. Of course he may be right - probably is, given the quality of his research but the unwillingness to allow even the slightest compromise is unpleasant and tiresome. There may be some element of trolling in that he enjoys the interminable and relentless arguing - I can only assume he must do, otherwise why persist? Considering that they do not seem to hold each other in high regard, the style of debate ( if it can be honoured in that way!) is similar to that employed by David Isaacson, equally arrogant and irritating.

As has been said above, don't be drawn in.

Indeed: Don't feed the troll

FredRydr
December 17th, 2019, 07:47 AM
The full title of the article is: How to Argue on the Internet Without Losing Your Mind. Avoid the murky waters of trolldom. It was too long for the subject line, so I chose the more catchy second phrase rather than the drier but more apropos first phrase for the subject line. The New York Times article that summarizes the National Institute of Health study addresses lack of empathy towards others when debating online, not just intentional trolling in the classic sense (as some have discussed above). In any event, the term "trolling behavior" has evolved to encompass bad online behavior in general.

I recommend reading the NIH manuscript to understand how such behavior foments similar behavior in others, and can indicate broader mental health problems.

The big takeaway lesson is: stop participating when the posts go toxic.

Deb
December 17th, 2019, 07:51 AM
can indicate broader mental health problems.


Precisely so!

azkid
December 17th, 2019, 08:43 AM
Something else to consider is that real people have a very diverse range of styles, psychologies, perceptions, and so on, which color their interactions. But little of that is as apparent in written text as it is in person.

While it is said we miss out on many cues we get from face to face conversation, these cues tell us a lot more than simplistic happy/sad, sarcastic/serious, troll/joking.

I hadn't considered before that we can get an overall sense of what the person is about, their intent, and where they are coming from, how best to interact with them.

One guy I know comes off sort of normal and kind of funny online but in person he is kind of a mean spirited asshole.

Another guy I know is a mean spirited asshole online and a genius smart, arrogant but kind of likeable asshole in person.

There are definitely trolls out there who have fun provoking and arguing for no good reason.

But sometimes "troll" is too simple a label that fails to provide any insight or explanation. A cursory study of certain psychological disorders that affect social interaction, along with careful observation, yield a far more nuanced, useful, and satisfying explanation.

Jon Szanto
December 17th, 2019, 10:10 AM
The big takeaway lesson is: stop participating when the posts go toxic.

Disengage. Walk away. It's healthier for everyone.

Chuck Naill
December 17th, 2019, 04:53 PM
The big takeaway lesson is: stop participating when the posts go toxic.

Disengage. Walk away. It's healthier for everyone.

I use the same BF quote on another forum.

Cayce04
December 18th, 2019, 12:32 PM
I have unfortunatly been baited too much to the point that it has been a few years since I felt comfortable posting on-line.

TSherbs
November 23rd, 2020, 08:23 AM
This was a great thread. First I've seen it.

Detman101
November 23rd, 2020, 08:34 AM
I have seen people openly admit that they start an argument or nitpick on the tiniest detail just because they have time on their hands, they want some banter without giving any consideration to the effect on others or even if there is any point to their comments. Their intention, well I don't really know, perhaps to pass some time or to have something else to respond to in an hour or so...

I see you have met my wife. :bounce:

TSherbs
December 2nd, 2022, 09:46 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/12/smarter-living/how-to-argue-on-the-internet-without-losing-your-mind.html

"...it’s important to stop when you can see that the argument has become toxic, because it will only get worse from there. “Prevent downward spirals. Don’t participate in toxic discussions. Nothing good will come out of it...”.

In depth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5791909/

A reminder of the wisdom in this post from FredRydr.

FredRydr
March 14th, 2023, 05:03 PM
Reminder - don't engage with them, at all.

TSherbs
April 27th, 2023, 06:50 PM
I'm an Atlantic digital subscriber, and this article was recently put in front of my eyes again:

How internet trolls behave, and how to best deal with them:

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/03/how-to-manage-cyberbullying-internet-trolls/627084/

Carpio
June 21st, 2023, 07:46 PM
Hello,

An old thread brought back to life?
I'm jumping on this boat.

The troll has no conscience. Nothing is off limits to him/her/them. Their intention is to not only win an argument, but to offend as much as possible, but don't hit back - do so and you become no better and find yourself embroiled in a no win fight. A verbal fight you think you can win but you never will. Trolls generally hunt in packs. Upset one by defeating him/her and next thing you know you're having to deal with multiples. Retaliation feeds them. Sadly, it turns you into a contender. The troll has you hitched. He will be back. That is a certainty. It is what feeds him/her/them.
All this and the damage to a forum/social media is damaged for good. OK, so the trolling here is slightly different due to no moderation blocking out trolls/spammers (there is a big difference between a troll and a spammer) but posting 'Spam. Spammer reported' is as good as a troll fight. Total ignore is what annoys a troll/spammer to the point they move to their next, new web victim, and from what I have seen, having read a lot of threads in different parts of FPG, the spam here is very little and very simple to ignore.
Spammers reading this may have a field day, but adhere to the 'golden rule' and in general, Bobs your Uncle and Fanny is your Aunt.
Just my two shillings worth.



Carpio

Chrissy
June 22nd, 2023, 04:26 AM
I occasionally wake at 02.46am too. I ignore what trolls and spammers type. Attention seekers are always better ignored. No need to jump on the boat and resurrect this thread. That's exactly what spammers and trolls do.

Carpio
June 22nd, 2023, 06:17 AM
Hello,

I actually woke at 0152, and it took me 20 minutes to change a medical dressing so it only took me 34 minutes to type my opinion here. I'm impressed with that. What wakes you up? Is it excrutiating pain, or thirst?
I'll keep in mind not to resurrect another thread, but fares fare, I've only done it once (I didn't ressurect this thread) and being made uncomfortable after an accident last week, I promised myself to be more observant with dates of posts and my replies.

Carpio <<<<<<<<<<<<< NOT A TROLL OR A SPAMMER.

Chrissy
June 22nd, 2023, 08:53 AM
Hello,

I actually woke at 0152, and it took me 20 minutes to change a medical dressing so it only took me 34 minutes to type my opinion here. I'm impressed with that. What wakes you up? Is it excrutiating pain, or thirst?
I'll keep in mind not to resurrect another thread, but fares fare, I've only done it once (I didn't ressurect this thread) and being made uncomfortable after an accident last week, I promised myself to be more observant with dates of posts and my replies.

Carpio <<<<<<<<<<<<< NOT A TROLL OR A SPAMMER.
It just dozed for a couple of months since April without any replies. No big deal. No-one suggested you were a troll or a spammer. Currently I wake up because it's too darn hot.