Fair price for a MB149

[penmainiac]

Hi! So I am hoping to be able to pick up a used possibly MB 149 at an upcoming pen show, and I was wondering what decent price for one?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farmboy]

450 seem to be in the ball park for a good used 149.

Good luck.

[penmainiac]

450 seem to be in the ball park for a good used 149.

Good luck.

Thanks, I hope I can find one that’s in my budget[emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sezna]

Do be careful about 149s that are priced a little too low, though.

[Chrissy]

Weren't you trying to buy one a year ago when you joined FPG? They haven't changed much in price since then.
They will be almost exactly the same price at this years pen shows as they were at last years pen shows. :)

[penmainiac]

Weren't you trying to buy one a year ago when you joined FPG? They haven't changed much in price since then.
They will be almost exactly the same price at this years pen shows as they were at last years pen shows. :)

Ok thanks! I have finally been able to save up enough money on the side for a 149 probably, around $500 and I was hoping they would be in my budget.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[penmainiac]

Do be careful about 149s that are priced a little too low, though.

Thanks! I think it is unlikely there will be fakes at a pen show, will there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barry B. Gabay]

Welcome back, maniac! Hope it's been an enjoyable year. Good luck with your search for the perfect 149. Chrissy's advice is always right on target. Is your hunt going to be the LA Show, as you mentioned last yr? How did you do on your first semester exams?

[penmainiac]

Welcome back, maniac! Hope it's been an enjoyable year. Good luck with your search for the perfect 149. Chrissy's advice is always right on target. Is your hunt going to be the LA Show, as you mentioned last yr? How did you do on your first semester exams?

I actually did pretty well, and thanks for asking[emoji16]. I hope I can manage to find a used 149, It would really top my collection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KBeezie]

I would also say it would depend on the age/era of the 149. Since the price above would sound like a common ballpark for a modern (early/mid 90s onward) 149. But might be too low for something from the 1980s or before, depending on their nib and nib qualities (ie: older semi-flex 14K for example).



Do be careful about 149s that are priced a little too low, though.

Thanks! I think it is unlikely there will be fakes at a pen show, will there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One of the big tells, is that 149 (and likewise the 146) are only available as piston fillers. If you see a 149 where the barrel removal is required to fill it, then it's either mislabeled as a 149, or is a fake. They may try to call a standard converter a piston, but Montblanc didn't make the 149 as a c/c pen.

And to date, I don't think anyone has ever seen a 149 fake, that also copied the piston mechanism (less of a profit margin to be had for that, with the bargain prices they put on them).

[penmainiac]

I did some more research on Fountainpennetork, and it seems like $450 was the average price 5 years ago, could they have gone up?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farmboy]

Will you be at the LA pen show?

[penmainiac]

Will you be at the LA pen show?

Yes I will, why do you ask?

[ilikenails]

And to date, I don't think anyone has ever seen a 149 fake, that also copied the piston mechanism (less of a profit margin to be had for that, with the bargain prices they put on them).

Piston fillers aren't expensive to make - after all a Wing Sung 698 is only $20 from a Western seller and functionally speaking, there isn't a lot of difference between it and a 149. I've never heard of a piston filling fake, but I certainly wouldn't say one is impossible.

To the OP
1. Look for the word "pix" under the clip

2. Look for a serial number on the cap band

3. Hold the pen up against a bright light: where the light comes through it should reveal that the plastic (aka "precious resin" aka "it breaks sooo easily!") is a very dark red, not a neutral black.

...I've never heard of any fake getting all these details right. That said, the "pix" imprint and serial number were only introduced in the 90s, so if you're interested in older pens, ignore this.

[KBeezie]

And to date, I don't think anyone has ever seen a 149 fake, that also copied the piston mechanism (less of a profit margin to be had for that, with the bargain prices they put on them).

Piston fillers aren't expensive to make - after all a Wing Sung 698 is only $20 from a Western seller and functionally speaking, there isn't a lot of difference between it and a 149. I've never heard of a piston filling fake, but I certainly wouldn't say one is impossible.



They're not... but I've never seen one to date, and I doubt they would bother if they can go even cheaper on a c/c pen and maximize profit from their scams. (and I'm sure I could note some differences from a 698 and a modern 149, aside from the fact that the modern 149 has brass pistons)

[guyy]

Well sure there are differences. For example, the brass you mention + the helical rod on the Wing Sung looks way sturdier than the one on a lot of MBs.

Functionally, they do the same job and work the same way.

[KBeezie]

Well sure there are differences. For example, the brass you mention + the helical rod on the Wing Sung looks way sturdier than the one on a lot of MBs.

Functionally, they do the same job and work the same way.

I'm not seeing the point exactly in the sense of discounting that similar-function-counterfeits exist.

Like until we see one show up, it's a very good bet that if you have to take the barrel off, it's not a real 146/149.

[ilikenails]

And to date, I don't think anyone has ever seen a 149 fake, that also copied the piston mechanism (less of a profit margin to be had for that, with the bargain prices they put on them).

Piston fillers aren't expensive to make - after all a Wing Sung 698 is only $20 from a Western seller and functionally speaking, there isn't a lot of difference between it and a 149. I've never heard of a piston filling fake, but I certainly wouldn't say one is impossible.



They're not... but I've never seen one to date, and I doubt they would bother if they can go even cheaper on a c/c pen and maximize profit from their scams. (and I'm sure I could note some differences from a 698 and a modern 149, aside from the fact that the modern 149 has brass pistons)

When you look at the engineering that goes into some Chinese fakes and the staggering price an MB sells for, the cost of a brass cylinder is nothing. It's hard to tell a fake Chinese Porsche from the real thing without taking it apart: a pen costing a few dollars to make and selling for hundreds isn't really an engineering challenge.

My guess is that MB pens don't have enough prestige inside China to be worth serious effort creating good fakes - because contrary to what Westerners assume, that's the market that high quality fakes are made for. Looking at recent high-end Chinese pens they seem to find the idea of paying high prices for black plastic a little silly. Fancier versions of the Duofold seem to be their idea of a prestige pen. eg

https://frankunderwater.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/frankunderwater_pennews_moonman_m600_check_checkbo ard.jpg?w=800&h=666&crop=1

..There's also a cultural issue in that the 149 isn't a great design for very precise writing - it's more or less the opposite of a calligraphy pen. Chinese script is a very high art and flourishing a thick and heavy pen might have very negative connotations.

Anyway, I certainly wouldn't buy ANY modern Montblanc without looking for those three signs of a genuine pen - it's not hard to hold a pen up to the light or look under the clip.

(https://www.highsnobiety.com/p/chinese-counterfeit-cars/)

[kazoolaw]

To ilikenails: you've mentioned easily broken MBs in another post. Could you describe how your M B, or another you've seen, got broken?

gary

[ilikenails]

To ilikenails: you've mentioned easily broken MBs in another post. Could you describe how your M B, or another you've seen, got broken?

gary

The funniest case I've seen was the MB that broken literally through being used. It was a twist retract bp. The brittle plastic inevitably broken through the torque the twist mechanism inflicted. The only time I remember mentioning this here was in this thread, where someone immediately came along and said this had happened to him:

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/25970-How-long-can-a-Montblanc-precious-resin-pen-last-if-treated-well-and-used-every-day
What you say about the wrist retract ballpoints is true. My first one broke at the barrel open end on its last retract, after about ten years use.

You can easily confirm MB's poor reputation in this regard with a google search like

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&biw=1920&bih=1047&ei=TlelXv-2CPWp8gLblIOADw&q=montblanc+precious+resin+broken&oq=montblanc+precious+resin+broken&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoECAAQRzoFCCEQoAFQ3WJYvWZg02l oAHACeACAAZIBiAG-A5IBAzIuMpgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj_lbC75oXpAhX1lFwKHVvKAPA4ChDh1QMICw&uact=5

To be honest, this is just inevitable. Plastic relies on a certain amount of flex to handle impact. If you add long glass fibres for shine, they reduce flexibility - you now have a brittle material. Parker 51s were made out of the same resin but without the glass and they were the opposite - notoriously tough.

But it's cheap and shiny and doesn't have a long cure time, and you can injection mould it instead of shaping on it on a lathe, which makes production even cheaper again. It's a great material if you're selling to people who don't know what they're buying - which to be honest is likely to be almost anyone willing to be swallow the idea that injection moulded plastic is "precious". MB make pens for people who buy branded luxury goods: it's not a knowledgeable market.

Interesting discussion here - it covers both the material's weakness and a great way to check if a pen is genuine:

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/269315-what-is-precious-resin/

I took an opportunity to do my Macgyver-ness. a friend had shattered older 1980s resin barrel. I had several test sample of plastics, metals, glass I had lying in my garage shelves I do keep them to compare and test their tolerances. ( long story )


so I wrapped a towel in bench vice grip, intentionally bent the barrel, it did not show white/clouding creases you would expect to see in plastics . rather it snapped after a slight nudge, about 20 or so pounds of pressure. So we established something, it IS brittle. upon close look the fresh sheared pieces showed many tiny shivers, It resembles to obsidian glass shards. So I may suspect they added silica into resin. to retain their shininess, sharp tone, and scratch resistant.



under a strong light it gleamed red-black. but I also put it under infrared light. the pictures revels it is completely invisible. So I had concluded that Silica and resin that's so pure that it is invisible under an infrared light.



So rule of thumb, If you are trying to detect fake Mb's put it under infrared to confirm it is completely invisible and only piston, nib housing and the nib is showing. that's one of the extreme ways to confirm genuineness.



other than sticking magnet to the nib and risking scratching ( tissue towel wrapped magnet is logical) and checking threading, and such. Checking the obvious German quality of the gold nib and I simply stick whole pen it under infrared light and peek.



Ive seen many counterfeits fail the infrared light. they show very subtle silhouettes.

..I should emphasize, again, that the problem is NOT plastic in general: the materials other companies use are generally fine. It's the combination of plastic plus glass fibres to make a cheap, injection mouldable material that's shiny.

Also, if you're willing to buy a pen that breaks more easily than normal, that's fine: other factors count too. And breaking more easily than normal doesn't mean that your pen is going to break - if you don't drop it, it should be fine. Just remember that (same link) this is typical -

Precious resin is what Montblanc calls their injection molded plastic. Personally it's not all that break resistant as I can testify to
After dropping a 149 on the floor and seeing the cap easily crack. Precious in my opinion would be an early 149 made of machined celluloid plastic rather than the cheap injection molded stuff they use now. I am sure it's not cheapest either

...In terms of actual performance, a $25 Pilot Kakuno is going to write as well (if you like fine nibs) and be a lot tougher.

BUT to be completely fair, I have heard that MB are very reasonable about replacing pen bodies at a relatively low cost, even out of warranty. (Although I don't know if this applies if you bought used, etc.)

Otoh again, while I like the looks of the MB more than Pelikan and the feel of the section a lot more, I hate the design from the maintenance pov. It seems like the only sane thing to do is to send that back to MB and pay to have it done every few years. Pelikan(?) TWSBI and Wing Sung all make their piston fillers user serviceable - in fact even a Pilot 823 vac is something you can quite easily take apart to lube the filling system (or so I've been told - a TWSBI wrench is supposed to be perfect for the job.) I've been told that a heavily used MB piston filler should probably get a service every 4 years for this reason - it's probably also a good idea to keep to a very mainstream brand of ink with a consistent formulation. (Cough... so maybe not Noodlers) And ideally maybe not to change inks too much even inside a brand - the more you clean out, the sooner you'll need a service. (Obviously, I've never been impressed with an MB enough to keep one for 4 years, especially as a main user. Although I'd consider it if I found a good pre-Richmont Group 146.)

Although for brave people, I just found this tool:

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/290071-lubricating-the-piston-on-a-meisterstuck-149/

[azkid]

FWIW, I've looked at a lot of pics of slim MB school pens (221 and similar) and noticed several with cracks around the cap clip. One of the pens I bought had this issue.

In addition, shortly after getting it, the hood broke at the nib end. The cracks occurred at stress points on each side of the nib.

Given the thin material in this area and the design of the hood of this particular style/model which lacks structure at the top to support the top of the nib/section, I suspect the break was due to excessive pressure applied at some point in its lifetime.

I found a new hood for it and that part has had no issues thus far. My other 221 has held up ok so far.

[kazoolaw]

Thanks for the information. Many complaints about the twist BPs. The references to the 221

In the threads linked above I saw one report of a 149 breaking when dropped. Can't think of many items that are immune to breakage. Anecdotally, I've dropped both a 149 and a 146 on concrete without breaking. Not recommended practice. My 149 has seen 20+ years of service with just an occasional flush.

My experience with the 149's I've owned come closest to jar's post "...I would expect a Montblanc fountain pen to last at least a century with just basic care."

No product is perfect, and I'm not about to argue that MSRP is a reasonable or bargain for a 1XX MB. However, I don't think that someone buying a 146 or a 149 is in imminent danger of it breaking in normal usage.

[ilikenails]

Thanks for the information. Many complaints about the twist BPs. The references to the 221

In the threads linked above I saw one report of a 149 breaking when dropped. Can't think of many items that are immune to breakage. .

You didn't notice the pen repairer who kept literally dozens of broken MBs in a jar on his worktop as a warning to customers not to but the modern version? Ok...

Or the detail description of the lab test I posted showing, beyond all doubt, that the material is exceptionally brittle? Ok...

Or the first random search I did gave this

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/mont-blanc-broken-how-to-fix-it.279163/

I have a mont blanc rollerball that is broken. The body has cracked where you screw in the tip...not sure how to describe it...Anyone know where I can send it to at least see if there is anything that can be done for it. Seems like a 200 dollar pen wouldnt crack when you put in a new, or take out an old refill.

I have a Meisterstuck fountain pen I bought years ago. A couple of years later, I noticed a crack in the barrel.

Actually Mont Blanc has a reputation of cracking easily. Their "Precious Resin" tends to be brittle

last time i asked, the service charge was $100 to replace that crappy plastic.




And the next got this

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/317899-crack-in-section-resin-sugestions-and-success-stories-welcomed/

(That thread also VERY useful suggestions on restorers if you need one.)

It's honestly almost shocking to me that people here don't know this. It's widely accepted that "precious resin" MBs are exceptionally brittle even on MB forums elsewhere. It's not even in the realm of opinion or anecdotal evidence: once again, FREAKING LAB TESTS! This is a more than usually brittle material.

This isn't me being a killjoy, it's just something you have to understand. Treat one of these pens a little more carefully, maybe carry it a pen kimono, do NOT push the clip to the limits - clips are often where fractures start. And, very relevantly to this thread, look at a used pen much more carefully for signs of surface wear than you would other pens. A deep scratch in a lot of pens will just be cosmetic, but in an MB it may well be start of a slow fracture.

[kazoolaw]

ilikenails,

Is it that you think people don't read what you post? Did I miss you saying that the MB barrel was from a 149?

I looked at the threads you posted: don't see a reference to a 149 or 146. Please let me know if I missed references to those two models. Yes, I saw the "fat" pen reference.

Did you recognize who asked the question, and the sarcasm in the response, about the lab test?

Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
Q: Do you have anything, even anecdotally, regarding "explosions" of MB pens, specifically MBs 146s or 149s? Please include in your response the sample size of those two models.

A: The reference is to the 2003 in-depth study of Montblanc Meisterstuck caps and barrels, based on a hypothesis that the black (not bordeaux) resin is prone to sudden fulmination if dropped from a height of 1.5 meters or more. 1,874 146es and a control population of 947 Safaris were subjected to strict laboratory tests that produced sufficient data to prove the hypothesis. At ambient temperature, empty Montblancs have a 93% likelihood of exploding if dropped 1.5 meters onto a hard surface compared to less than 1% for the empty Safaris. Only two injuries were suffered by lab assistants in the study, and Lamy covered the expense of their treatment. Montblanc refused to have anything to do with it.

I trust this satisfies your demand for evidence. Alas, the study never made it onto the internet, but I see no reason why you cannot take my word for it."


There is a MB model with a known and documented issue with cap cracks, none of which you've referenced, and which is neither a 149 or 146.

To prove a MB pen-demic you'll need more proof.

[ilikenails]

Did I miss you saying that the MB barrel was from a 149?

MB use the same plastic in all their standard pens. It isn't going to magically turn into armour plate because the tube it's being moulded into has a different serial number. It's fine if you like MB branding enough to pay their prices, but you shouldn't try to cover up objective fact.

Did you recognize who asked the question, and the sarcasm in the response, about the lab test?

I prefer not to comment on badly written humour. In this case, it's very badly written. As well as being unfunny, you don't need a population sample for material tests like that - they're very simple and extremely robust. To dumb this down to a level you can hopefully understand, if I want to compare the weight of a 149 and a Prera, I can reasonably just weigh one of each pen, not several hundred. Population sampling is for things like medical tests where you should expect a large number of confounding factors and you're often trying to measure a small effect.

Now, it's *possible* that the test might have hit on an unusually weak MB - but it's not the smart way to bet. Especially given all the other evidence and basic materials science: you simply can't do what MB have done without expecting the resulting material to be much more brittle than it was before the fibres were added.

[carlos.q]

I suppose we have all noticed that the OP bought his 149...

[kazoolaw]

Did I miss you saying that the MB barrel was from a 149?

MB use the same plastic in all their standard pens. It isn't going to magically turn into armour plate because the tube it's being moulded into has a different serial number. It's fine if you like MB branding enough to pay their prices, but you shouldn't try to cover up objective fact.

No, didn't think I had. Do I think you have ignored references to how thin the components are in the size of the models referenced? I do. Do you concede that the relative thickness of a material may be a factor in how resistant it is to breaking? Attempting to change the subject to the

Did you recognize who asked the question, and the sarcasm in the response, about the lab test?

I prefer not to comment on badly written humour. In this case, it's very badly written. As well as being unfunny, you don't need a population sample for material tests like that - they're very simple and extremely robust. To dumb this down to a level you can hopefully understand, if I want to compare the weight of a 149 and a Prera, I can reasonably just weigh one of each pen, not several hundred. Population sampling is for things like medical tests where you should expect a large number of confounding factors and you're often trying to measure a small effect.

You don't comment, yet you're willing to pass the "test" as being genuine? You would cite to a "test" written in jest as proof? Is that the best you can do? Or did you think that no one would actually bother to check your citations?


Now, it's *possible* that the test might have hit on an unusually weak MB - but it's not the smart way to bet. Especially given all the other evidence and basic materials science: you simply can't do what MB have done without expecting the resulting material to be much more brittle than it was before the fibres were added.

What test? The one that was written in jest, in what you called 'badly written humour?' The one that wasn't really a test?

You are welcome to the last word in this thread. I wish you luck in locating an "objective fact." Thus far both have eluded you.

[kazoolaw]

Hi! So I am hoping to be able to pick up a used possibly MB 149 at an upcoming pen show, and I was wondering what decent price for one?




Good luck with your purchase.

[FredRydr]

Hi! So I am hoping to be able to pick up a used possibly MB 149 at an upcoming pen show, and I was wondering what decent price for one?
Good luck with your purchase.
Um...the young man was hot to trot for a 149 when he started this thread, he was advised to wait and compare them at a pen show, he bought one on February 9th at the LA show for cheap, turned out he went ahead on his own with no idea what he was doing, the pen had issues and problems, and he was trying to trade it for a Visconti four days later. This thread should be allowed to fade, fade away....

[kazoolaw]

Still appreciate your test report. Not bad humor at all.

[welch]

[QUOTE=kazoolaw;290070]Thanks for the information. Many complaints about the twist BPs.

<snip>

And the next got this

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/317899-crack-in-section-resin-sugestions-and-success-stories-welcomed/

(That thread also VERY useful suggestions on restorers if you need one.)

It's honestly almost shocking to me that people here don't know this. It's widely accepted that "precious resin" MBs are exceptionally brittle even on MB forums elsewhere. It's not even in the realm of opinion or anecdotal evidence: once again, FREAKING LAB TESTS! This is a more than usually brittle material.



I read through this thread in FPN. It is about the Montblanc "Generation", a fountain pen that Ron Zorn says, in the thread, is NOT made with the same "resin" that Montblanc uses in the Meisterstuck. In the thread, Ron points to a design flaw in the Generation that puts too much pressure at a point just up from the nib and where the material is too thin.

All this says nothing about Montblanc in general.

[guyy]

Indeed. The Generation and other similarly designed pens transfer stress from the nib to the shell’s plastic at that corner. I have an old Sailor that is cracking at the same spot. It’s just a bad design.