Second conklin sleeve filler sac melted on me

[lowks2]

I have had my second conklin sleeve filler sac melted away on me. This time I kept blue Robert Oster ink (fire and ice) in it for 2 weeks! Anyone had the same problem or where can i get replacements ?

[ms8109]

I had this same thing happen and was told it was the ink!


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[lowks2]

I had this same thing happen and was told it was the ink!


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What ink did you use and how did you eventually get the replacement. I am pretty sure that both the inks I used were different.

[Deb]

I'm told that it does happen that some sacs fail but that is very rare. Statistically it is vanishingly unlikely that you would get two. It looks like ink must be the culprit.

[dneal]

Not enough information. Did you buy a batch of sacs, and have two in a row fail with two different inks? That sounds like a quality control issue with the sacs. Did you buy two different Conklins and have sacs in both fail using two different inks? Still sounds like a bad batch of sacs.

[FredRydr]

...ink must be the culprit.
This^

[mhosea]

Statistically it is vanishingly unlikely that you would get two.

On the question of statistics (or rather probability), it would be rare to get two bad sacs if you dumped all the sacs in the world in a bin and drew two sacs at random from it. But latex sacs are made in batches. Two sacs from the same batch being bad? The conditional probability of getting two in a row bad given that the first one was bad and they came from the same batch? Probably not a small probability there. If I know this pen, it's in the category of pens that would be hard on sacs without some sort of metal inhibitor.

But that doesn't mean I think it was the sac. One of the things I never tried to account for was the effect of metal contact with the natural rubber providing ions that would be catalysts. I mean, it's not like I'm a chemist or anything like it, but in all the trials I had trying to make inks melt sacs, and failing, never did I attempt to provide this input to the system. I don't think I would have, because it sounds like a lot of work to engineer, but I'm kind of wondering if the metal + the sac + ink all three needed to be present to effect the melting, and I only ever had just the sac and the ink.

[Lloyd]

I thought Noodlers was always to blame. Any chance there's a bottle of BSB within a 10 mile radius of your house?

If there are any typos in this post, I blame Tapatalk!

[lowks2]

Not enough information. Did you buy a batch of sacs, and have two in a row fail with two different inks? That sounds like a quality control issue with the sacs. Did you buy two different Conklins and have sacs in both fail using two different inks? Still sounds like a bad batch of sacs.

First time it melted using Aurora Black, sent it back to be replaced by brick and mortar shop, replaced then second time around it came back from service replaced with new sac then used Robert Oster Fire and Ice. Both time same result.

[dneal]

Not enough information. Did you buy a batch of sacs, and have two in a row fail with two different inks? That sounds like a quality control issue with the sacs. Did you buy two different Conklins and have sacs in both fail using two different inks? Still sounds like a bad batch of sacs.

First time it melted using Aurora Black, sent it back to be replaced by brick and mortar shop, replaced then second time around it came back from service replaced with new sac then used Robert Oster Fire and Ice. Both time same result.

Well that's odd indeed, and I don't think of Aurora Black as a troublesome ink. It appears that ink might not be the issue.

Did you look at the sac and see if it was "melted", or did you just note there was a leak. It might simply be something piercing the sac.

[FredRydr]

First time it melted using Aurora Black....
Oooo! That starts to change things. That's pretty innocuous stuff. Are you using unadulterated shellac?

I would stop using those sacs, contact the seller (retailer or the manufacturer such as Peter Amis) to describe what's been happening and when the sacs were purchased, and offer to return a sac to analyse. I hope you haven't mixed sacs from different purchase dates (i.e., from different batches or manufacturers).

Meanwhile, bite the bullet and buy fresh sacs.

P.S. Did the sac actually dissolve, or did its contents look like melted rubber?

[KBeezie]

First time it melted using Aurora Black, sent it back to be replaced by brick and mortar shop, replaced then second time around it came back from service replaced with new sac then used Robert Oster Fire and Ice. Both time same result.

When I first read the thread, my first thought was that maybe RO Fire & Ice is on the alkaline side of pH much like most of Iroshizuku's inks being over 9.x , which latex sacs do not like, especially aged sacs.

But then you say this, and I'm thinking, Aurora Black tests out to 6.5~6.9, it's damn near straight up water (7), and anything more acidic than that would be just fine for latex sacs, so the shop is probably using a really bad batch, since even with alkaline ink, it should take a few months for a latex sac under repeated filling to start breaking down.

Either that or said brick and mortar shop is recycling ancient sacs that they deemed still good because they're still pliable and untorn (but aged sacs will likely start rupturing within weeks if it's that far gone).

[KBeezie]

Far as replacement sacs, if you want to have it where you don't have to worry about the ink you use (especially as most modern inks don't take into account latex sacs, despite some more expensive pens like the modern Decoband using them), then you'll want to use either a silicone sac, or PVC sac.

It's why I replaced the sac in my 1964 Pilot Super 250 with a PVC sac (since it's encased in a sac protector with a quarter turn filler knob, and the gasket is lucite), so that I could use Iroshizuku inks in it (since previously using Iroshizuku Syo-ro ruptured the latex sac I had before the most recent re-saccing).

If the Conklin you are re-saccing is celluloid or vegetal resin (similar stuff Noodler's pens have that smells), then use silicone sacs. If it's hard rubber, modern plastic, or metal (and the grip/nipple area is not celluloid, such as visulated grips), you can use PVC sacs.

Silicone is inert and should be able to handle all the inks, and won't seep any chemical into the surrounding pen material and can keep it's shape for years, it's just as resilient as latex. But it's gas permeable, so ink is more likely to evaporate the water content more quickly especially with a poor fitting cap, and you can't just store pen sideways (or upside down like a desk pen) without it leaking overnight, have to keep it upright when not in use. But you also cannot use shellac with silicone, have to use a Silicone adhesive like Loctite 908570.

PVC is pretty strong and springy (such as the Pil-Glass used in the Parker 51 Aeros for years), but it will attack and merge with celluloid and soft plastics, causing the celluloid to become soft and squishy as the plasticizer gets destroyed. Doesn't suffer the gas permeability issue though. Can use PVC in most modern plastics, or pens that use a sac protector like the Sheaffer Snorkel, Parker Slimfold, or like my Pilot Super 250. You can also use shellac with PVC.

Latex is still preferred if you can limit your ink selection, as it's pretty strong resistance (except in the case of alkaline), and tear resistance, but ages poorly compared to either silicone or PVC.

Once you got that replaced, you mainly just have to worry about clogging and staining of highly saturated fountain pen inks, since 14K/18K gold, and ebonite feeds/grips are quite resilient to either acidic or alkaline inks.
(PS: PVC/Vinyl sacs will stain pretty easily, so don't rely on it's clarity forever, just look at some of the old Parker 21 and 51 aero sacs over the years).

[lowks2]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

[KBeezie]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

Oh it's a modern Conklin... good luck with that.

[lowks2]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

Oh it's a modern Conklin... good luck with that.

Because of the pen or because of Yafa ?

[FredRydr]

I think the "good luck with that" comment comes from the odd mix of "modern" and "ink sac." Where are Conklin parts made? If China, the sacs might come from there, where quality control might be out of control. If sourced from the USA, they may very well have come from The Sac Co, and you could contact Peter Amis for an explanation. But really, given the price of a sac, I'd just buy fresh sacs and move on.

[dneal]

But really, given the price of a sac, I'd just buy fresh sacs and move on.

This.

[Ron Z]

This is an argument that has gone on for almost as long as I've been in the business full time. I do see a lot of failed sacs, and damage related to inks. One individual has done some more scientific testing, and concluded that the dye saturated inks, and one brand in particular, are connected with premature failure of sacs. I've also seen problems with red inks, or inks that contain red like brown or purple, causing sacs to fail in fairly short order. Such may be the case here. But, I've also seen premature failure in cases where the latex sac comes in contact with a metal sac guard. In that case, I use a PVC sac (the supply is dwindling) or make sure that the sac has a good coating of talc before I close up the pen.

I buy my sacs from the Pen Sac Company. About 17 years ago Woodbin has a problem with a bunch of sacs, and Vac diaphragms in particular, failing rather quickly because they were missing an ingredient that prevented decay when in contact with metal. I assume that those are long out of circulation, but if others than the PSC are making sacs, the problem could rear its ugly head again.

There are those who argue that the pen manufacturer's ink VS what I call "boutique" inks is no longer valid. I disagree. I still see the failed sacs, and it does seem to be related to inks. We don't usually see the problem with the standard Pelikan, Montblanc, Auroa , Waterman etc. The problem with Aurora mentioned above makes me think of other possible causes because I rarely if ever see problems with any Aurora ink.

For those who are interested, I wrote a blog post (http://mainstreetpens.com/wordpress/?p=55)about types of sacs and their strengths and weaknesses some time ago. I think that its still valid.

[KBeezie]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

Oh it's a modern Conklin... good luck with that.

Because of the pen or because of Yafa ?

Both in this sense, since YAFA has an issue with quality control with most the brands they own. I can't exactly see them picking out quality sacs. If you were able to disassemble the pen yourself without much issues I would just replace the sac with either silicone or PVC (depending on the barrel material), and not worry much about your ink choices.

But for Aurora black (pretty much pH neutral) to rupture a fresh sac... that has to be a pretty poor sac quality.

If two sacs from them chemically ruptured (ie: if it was handled by Yafa versus the brick and mortar store using their own material), then I don't think third time is going to be a charm from them.

[lowks2]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

Oh it's a modern Conklin... good luck with that.

Because of the pen or because of Yafa ?

Both in this sense, since YAFA has an issue with quality control with most the brands they own. I can't exactly see them picking out quality sacs. If you were able to disassemble the pen yourself without much issues I would just replace the sac with either silicone or PVC (depending on the barrel material), and not worry much about your ink choices.

But for Aurora black (pretty much pH neutral) to rupture a fresh sac... that has to be a pretty poor sac quality.

If two sacs from them chemically ruptured (ie: if it was handled by Yafa versus the brick and mortar store using their own material), then I don't think third time is going to be a charm from them.

Have yet to reply me too, reached out to them on contact us link, instagram (conklin and yafa). Could be due to the difficult times now.

[KBeezie]

From this thread (and pasting in case seomeone doesn't have an FPN membership), in regards to just putting on your own sac (I would also recommend a PVC sac, or silicone if the material is able to be damaged by PVC like celluloid and other soft plastics).

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/267772-help-how-does-one-clean-a-conklin-crescent-demonstrator/



For later reference, all modern re-issued Conklin Crescent-Fillers are easily serviceable. The first models had aerometric sacs that were held in place with a rubber O-ring, but for later models the sacs are glued to the feed nipple and there is less of a chance for leaks or filling problems.



These pens can be dismantled and I have used a pair of section pliers and rubber gripping material sold by Richard Binder to unscrew the barrel from the nib section. The barrel and outer nib section unscrew between the metal ring on the nib section and the barrel. Sometimes, heat may need to be applied at the point where the barrel and section meet. Hot water can help loosen the seal. Be sure the crescent filler button is locked in place. I hold the barrel with gripping material and rotate the section with the section pliers.



There is an inner section holding the nib and feed, but it is a little tricky to unscrew. The Endura model has the same arrangement and seems to unscrew easily. The nib and feed are friction fit and it is easier to simply pull them straight out for thorough cleaning or adjustment. Notice the registration guide, in the inner section, for lining up the nib and feed for reinsertion into the section.



The sac, according to a White Rubber Company gauge, is a number 17 (.266 inch diameter/ 73 mm), and it is 2 7/8 inches long. The nibs are a number 6 and are interchangeable with Goulet JoWo number 6 nibs.



The new, re-issued Conklin Crescent Fillers (aerometric-filled) pens are simple to maintain and they are terrific, classic-style fountain pens. If the seal for the sac at the feed nipple is secure, leaks will not occur and the section should remain relatively clean.



When re-attaching the barrel to nib section, the nib and crescent filler should line up, just as the crescent filler lines

up with the clip when the cap is screwed on. That is a nice touch and I appreciate Conklin's attention to detail.



Regards, Robert

[KrazyIvan]

A few years back I bought a LE demonstrator Crescent filler that leaked. The thing that I noted was that it was difficult to press the present filler as if the ink channel was blocked and did not allow the sac to expel the air. It soon became apparent the glue holding the sac to the nipple had failed and ink was leaking inside the barrel. Something I would not have known if it had not been a demonstrator. I ended up sending it back to the retailer and getting as a different pen. I share my experience and regret not sending it back for warranty repair.

[lowks2]

where is the best place online to buy sacs now ?

[Ron Z]

Pen Sac Company.

[KBeezie]

Pen Sac Company.

Doesn't seem to be any silicone or PVC options from them when I looked.

[Ron Z]

Only David Nishimura has been making silicone sacs, and only Martin Smith at Woodbin ever had PVC sacs made. I don't know of anybody except PSC who actually makes the latex sacs now. Martin Smith did, but he passed away 2 years ago. Jonathan Steinburg had some made, but they didn't have carbon in them, so were tan. To the best of my knowledge, everybody else simply resells sacs made by PSC. Buy them in a big enough quantity, and you can mark the price up a bit.

[KBeezie]

Only David Nishimura has been making silicone sacs, and only Martin Smith at Woodbin ever had PVC sacs made. I don't know of anybody except PSC who actually makes the latex sacs now. Martin Smith did, but he passed away 2 years ago. Jonathan Steinburg had some made, but they didn't have carbon in them, so were tan. To the best of my knowledge, everybody else simply resells sacs made by PSC. Buy them in a big enough quantity, and you can mark the price up a bit.

Well that's unfortunate. Been looking for something on the larger size of PVC for myself (But at best it seems I could just find #15 such as from Nishimura's Snorkel kits), as would like to use it in a hard rubber pen, and don't want to use silicone (surface tension issues, and gas permeability).

But I guess latex is still the standard way to go and it's still available ... for now.

[Ray-VIgo]

With hard rubber pens, I use latex. I had a couple pens that had PVC sacs, but they were installed a number of years ago back when this was an approach to celluloid discoloration concerns. I pulled those because of the negative interactions PVC can have with vintage celluloid. I went to true silicone sacs in those pens. I've used all of these pens extensively and the latex is better from a functional standpoint than everything else I have tried.

The silicone is what I use in a couple pens where I don't want discoloration, but one thing I've noted with the silicone is the tendency to push ink into the cap, even when stored nib-up. It seems like a quantity of ink remains in the feed, and then gas permeation pushes what ink there is in the feed up into the nib and into the cap. I had one Sheaffer flat top section covered in ink because ink pushed out of a cap over the weekend (nib up still) and into the cap.

I've noticed several of the pens where I used Aurora black more than others, had stained nibs (dark red tinting that would not wash off) and had sacs to fail earlier than expected, and earlier than pens where I only was using Waterman or Pelikan Blue or Blue-Black. None of the sacs failed in short order, but I will say I was replacing the sacs that had Aurora Black in them a couple years sooner than the sacs that used Waterman or Pelikan inks.

A question to which I'd love to know the answer is whether modern latex sacs can cause the celluloid discoloration that the vintage sacs could cause when they would deteriorate. Bert Heiserman once told me he was skeptical that a modern latex sac would do the same as a vintage one because he thought something in the rubber formulation had changed since older times. I have no data to show whether that is true or not.

[KBeezie]

...
A question to which I'd love to know the answer is whether modern latex sacs can cause the celluloid discoloration that the vintage sacs could cause when they would deteriorate. Bert Heiserman once told me he was skeptical that a modern latex sac would do the same as a vintage one because he thought something in the rubber formulation had changed since older times. I have no data to show whether that is true or not.

Modern would still do the same thing (but also some of the moderns will fail sooner because they are not made with carbon like they're used to to improves resistance and stability. especially when near metal parts).

The discoloration comes from the aging and off-gassing of the sac, even if it takes longer for it to start aging. Alkaline inks will accelerate this process.

And I can definitely concur with the surface tension annoyance of silicone sacs, already had it happen in two freshly re-sac'd pens (both size #15) sitting upright overnight with no change in temperature/etc. As you said the ink likes to hug and sit at top. I've noticed that doing a flushing with clear dish soap, then water, seemed to improve it somewhat, but not by much. Seems like the main solution is a thicker sac.

And yes, PVC sacs can definitely harm celluloid and celluloid acetate (soft plastic) pens, it attacks the plasticizer in the celluloid causing it to go soft and no longer solid, an irreversible process. Also can't use it with a grip/section that is made of celluloid such as visualated sections found in some pens, even if the bodies are plastics. Seems safest to use in pens that use a metal sac protector, and the connection is rubber or stable plastic.


One thing I've heard recently, but I cannot confirm if it's true or not is that silicone sacs will die sooner if left dry and uninked. For that reason there was a suggestion to keep the pen filled with distilled water to keep the life of the silicone sac long (which seems bizarre to me, because how do the sacs that sat on the shelf last as long as they do left dry?). But like I said, I haven't been able to confirm that.

Far as hard rubber pens, the only reason I would want to use something other than Latex, is to be able to use more ink choices that are typically alkaline. Other than that, seems like latex is still quite reliable.