Waterman #55 section cracked

[Pen Tom]

I broke a piece off of the section for my 1920s Waterman #55, which is of course made of hard rubber.

I will search for a replacement, but I was wondering if there is any way to reattach the broken portion?

[Chrissy]

Disclaimer: I know nothing about this specific vintage Waterman's pen.

What I would do is to search on ebay for a beater pen that has a decent section. I spotted a Waterman's 52 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lovely-Scarce-Vintage-Waterman-s-52-Fountain-Pen-Unrestored-and-untested/184319806460?hash=item2aea510bfc:g:1m8AAOSwByVe28k N) today with hardly any searching. I don't know if the sections are the same size or not.

If it's an open crack in the section that is going to affect whether the pen will still write or not then gluing it back together is unlikely to work long term. You would never be able to reinsert the nib and feed without the crack opening again. However, if you've broken off the sac nipple then there may be a possible workaround that could still make the pen write.

There are also probably some restorers around who could make you a new section on a lathe.

[amk]

If you've only broken off part of the rim, you can possibly reattach it using one of the specialised Loctite glues (can't remember which one off the top of my head). Regular glues won't work with ebonite. But if the crack goes right through the wall of the section you'll get leaks and as Chrissy says it will probably open up again over time.

[Chrissy]

If you've only broken off part of the rim, you can possibly reattach it using one of the specialised Loctite glues (can't remember which one off the top of my head). Regular glues won't work with ebonite. But if the crack goes right through the wall of the section you'll get leaks and as Chrissy says it will probably open up again over time.
When I read the text of OP's post I also replied about a slight chip that was broken off exactly as you have done. But then I read the title and edited my reply to refer to a crack.

[grainweevil]

If you've only broken off part of the rim, you can possibly reattach it using one of the specialised Loctite glues (can't remember which one off the top of my head).

I believe it's Loctite 480.

[Deb]

If it is actually a crack, the only repair I know to be successful in a hard rubber section is a metal insert. If it's just re-attaching a chip, it's possible Loctite will work. I often hear of it being recommended but I also hear it said that it is unsuccessful long-term. I haven't tried it myself. I agree with Chrissy that a replacement would be best.

[Pen Tom]

Thanks for all the useful responses. I should have uploaded a few photos, so I'm doing that now.
The cracked off portion fits perfectly in the larger piece.
Hopefully this will work

[Pen Tom]

well, the photos are pretty large, but shows whats going on

Its the waterman cardinal red so its harder to find a replacement then if it was black.

If the 'glue' holds perfectly, this may work. The portion of the section that would be visable would look perfect.

[Pen Tom]

As I look at the section I see another problem. There is not enough of the inner part of the section for a sac to be glued on.

[Chrissy]

well, the photos are pretty large, but shows whats going on

Its the waterman cardinal red so its harder to find a replacement then if it was black.

If the 'glue' holds perfectly, this may work. The portion of the section that would be visable would look perfect.

Wow. You need a new section. Nothing else will work. A black one would be an acceptable alternative compared with having no section at all. :)

(P.S. Just as a heads-up, on FPG you can edit any of your posts to add or change anything you want or spotted later. )

[grainweevil]

Oh crumbs, that's a big red problem (with apologies to Parker). Even if it was a much smaller repair and the glue worked, it's probably worth noting that 480 is, um, black. So it's going to show - you'd have to be embracing that Japanese thingy I can never remember the name of.

I'll be really interested to hear what the experienced repair folks think could be possible with this one, because I can't help feeling we're getting further and further down a road where "find a replacement part" as a repair solution is increasingly going to be the least viable route for all pens.

[Jon Szanto]

As it stands, nothing will mend the pieces you have. Beyond any other problem, the outward force of a friction fit feed/nib will certainly separate it into pieces again.

Certainly there is the hunt for a matching section, which won't be easy. One thing I would consider would be having an ebonite replacement turned. There are so many bespoke pen makers now (I won't bother making a list because you can research for nearest to where you live on your own. You can take precise measurements or send them the pieces, and they should be able to turn a replacement section without too much issue. I would probably consider sending nib and feed as well, so they can get a good fit. Since it is not original, you can be completely free to choose the look of the material. You'll have a section with which to put the pen back into working order, and then you can always continue your hunt (if you wish) for an original replacement.

[Fermata]

This is terrible, I think that it will be a difficult repair and agree that replacement may be the best outcome, if you can find one. Even complete pens will be tough to find.

I don't know a source of Waterman's parts but there is a UK repair person who bought a large bagful, from memory 7 kilos, of Waterman/s bits a few years ago, if you want to make contact them I will look out their email address.

No promises but it may be worth trying.

[Deb]

Beyond repair.

[Chrissy]

If it was me I would start by measuring the broken section then checking ebay for "Waterman section" to see if there was anything available that might be the right size. It's possible, if not likely, that the same sized sections were used in several pen models.

In that way, finding a section (even if it was black) that would fit your barrel, and accommodate your nib and feed, might work.

There are also the possibilities of asking a repairer to fix the pen, or asking someone to make you a section. I would expect to have to send off the whole pen for either of these options.

[Fermata]

Complete pen on ebay.fr, currently 90 euros

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/VINTAGE-WATERMAN-PEN-CO-IDEAL-55/324188243054?hash=item4b7b20046e:g:HDsAAOSwH3ddBTe 5


and another with a BIN at 190 euros.

https://www.ebay.it/itm/VINTAGE-WATERMAN-55-LEVER-FILLER-BLACK-EBONITE-FP-W-IDEAL-NEW-YORK-5-GOLD-NIB/202958015630?hash=item2f413d8c8e:g:QvUAAOSwG21ei5f C


The trouble, for me, would be that I am breaking a good pen to fix a pen.

[Chrissy]

I saw this (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1915-20-Waterman-PSF-12-1-2-Fountain-Pen-Section-Feed/163621803555?hash=item26189e9623:g:PdMAAOSw0dFcnXy O) on ebay.com and wondered if by any chance the measurements could match. If they did that would be an inexpensive fix.

[Fermata]

I saw this (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1915-20-Waterman-PSF-12-1-2-Fountain-Pen-Section-Feed/163621803555?hash=item26189e9623:g:PdMAAOSw0dFcnXy O) on ebay.com and wondered if by any chance the measurements could match. If they did that would be an inexpensive fix.


For the cost involved it would be worth a try, you could always try and resell it.


Someone should write a song, :music: Broken Parts break your Heart

[Farmboy]

I'd put a #55 RHR section in the 45-55 dollar range.

I currently have a 52 and a 56 but no 55.

Usual disclaimer, your barrel might not fit the section you find, sometimes there are slight differences.

[Chrissy]

I'd put a #55 RHR section in the 45-55 dollar range.

I currently have a 52 and a 56 but no 55.

Usual disclaimer, your barrel might not fit the section you find, sometimes there are slight differences.
Are your sections all completely different sizes?

[Ron Z]

A #55 Cardinal red section is not easy to come by, so repair would be a good way to go... and the section can be repaired, but with caveats. I've done it a number of times.

You can not simply glue the parts together and expect it to hold. The outward pressure when you insert the nib and feed will likely break it again because the nib is a wedge. You can split an oak log with a wedge, and this will open up again.

The repair involves gluing the parts together, then boring out the section to take a hard rubber plug. In this case you make the plug long enough to go from the front end, back far enough to form a replacement sac nipple. After the adhesive has set, you bore out the plug to the right diameter for the feed, and then the front part slightly larger to accommodate the diameter of nib and feed. The bushing that results spreads and carries the stress of the wedged in parts, not the section itself. The repair can be close to invisible from the outside, though you will see a small ring when you look straight on at the end of the section, and of course the sac nipple will be black.... unless we can get hold of some modern orange/cardinal red hard rubber.

The cost is not cheap because it is exacting work, and takes time. There are risks that the section could blow up in the process. But if that happens, you go back to looking for a replacement.

[Pen Tom]

wow, these are some very good ideas. For now I'll look for a replacement part. Some pen repair people sell parts. For example, Five Star Pens, whom I have used before, currently had black sections from Waterman 55, also a red section from a #56. Thats so close! and some #58 and of course the popular #52. But no red #55.

[Chrissy]

A #55 Cardinal red section is not easy to come by, so repair would be a good way to go... and the section can be repaired, but with caveats. I've done it a number of times.

You can not simply glue the parts together and expect it to hold. The outward pressure when you insert the nib and feed will likely break it again because the nib is a wedge. You can split an oak log with a wedge, and this will open up again.

The repair involves gluing the parts together, then boring out the section to take a hard rubber plug. In this case you make the plug long enough to go from the front end, back far enough to form a replacement sac nipple. After the adhesive has set, you bore out the plug to the right diameter for the feed, and then the front part slightly larger to accommodate the diameter of nib and feed. The bushing that results spreads and carries the stress of the wedged in parts, not the section itself. The repair can be close to invisible from the outside, though you will see a small ring when you look straight on at the end of the section, and of course the sac nipple will be black.... unless we can get hold of some modern orange/cardinal red hard rubber.

The cost is not cheap because it is exacting work, and takes time. There are risks that the section could blow up in the process. But if that happens, you go back to looking for a replacement.
I would pay to watch that work being done. :)

[Ron Z]

I would pay to watch that work being done.

It has been suggested that Richard Binder and I should set up bleachers across from our table at pen shows.

[Farmboy]

I'd put a #55 RHR section in the 45-55 dollar range.

I currently have a 52 and a 56 but no 55.

Usual disclaimer, your barrel might not fit the section you find, sometimes there are slight differences.
Are your sections all completely different sizes?

When I actively sold parts, in particular sections and feeds, I would often get "your part doesn't fit my pen". Said as if it was my fault there are variances in parts made between 75-100 years ago. I prefer to say it the other way around, your broken pen may not fit my part. Eventually you get to the point you only sell parts as part of a repair.

Making that section would not be difficult. I suspect a replacement section would be more cost effective than a rebulid taking into account that some tweaking on the section may be needed. Really only a problem if the section is to small.

[Jon Szanto]

I would pay to watch that work being done. :)

You do realize that that is the same statement that started the online porn industry, right? :crazy_pilot:

[Chrissy]

I would pay to watch that work being done. :)

You do realize that that is the same statement that started the online porn industry, right? :crazy_pilot:
ROFL :bounce:

[grainweevil]

Thanks very much for taking the time to explain in such detail how you'd tackle it, Ron. Pretty much what I guessed, but crumbs, what a job. Plenty of opportunity for it to go south.


unless we can get hold of some modern orange/cardinal red hard rubber.
Is such stuff made? That matches?

[amk]

I think turning a new section might be the best way to go.
Any model machinist, or anyone who uses CNC, should be able to do it by copying your existing section; your main task will be finding appropriate ebonite.

[Deb]

I have yet to be convinced that broken hard rubber can be glued together successfully, long term.

[Ron Z]

I have yet to be convinced that broken hard rubber can be glued together successfully, long term.

In general, I agree. I do not try to repair old cracks in hard rubber because it will not hold. With a fresh cut to the rubber, chances are better.

[Deb]

I usually don't repair pens for other people. The pens I restore are for my sales website. The reason I don't repair more generally is that I have a dreadful fear that someone will entrust me with their great-grandmother's precious Swan 1500 and I will slip up somehow and destroy their beloved family heirloom. Actually, I don't break pens very often. Hardly ever, in fact, but the fear remains. I do make the occasional exception. With people that I've done business with or who have commented in my blog and we've developed a relationship, I sometimes take a chance, particularly if the repair is interesting.

Such a person had broken the cap of a black hard rubber pen – and by broken, I mean in pieces. I agreed to try to repair it. It was a fresh break. At least, it was as fresh as the three days it took to get to me. Loctite 480 was being recommended at that time as the solution to the problem of repairing broken hard rubber and that is what I used. It looked very good. I kept it for a week and it appeared strong. I sent it back to him and he was pleased with it. I suspected that the repair might not last and I asked him to keep me informed. The repair began to fail in about four months.

I have heard it said that when hard rubber breaks an oxidised layer is formed almost immediately – I'm sure there is a more scientific explanation than that. That oxidised layer acts to prevent a good bond being made regardless of the adhesive used.

I'm not dogmatic about this. I don't insist that hard rubber is impossible to repair. I just don't know of any hard rubber repair that has lasted. Obviously, the more stress that is involved in the use of the part, the more likely it is to fail. A screw on cap has some stress – not a great deal. But what good is a repair if it can't be used for a stressed part?

[Fermata]

I have often wondered about how far the repairer can be held liable if a pen that goes to a professional repairer for a minor repair comes back with major damage.

Only once have I had a problem when a pen went to a well known repairer because I couldn't open it, he acknowledged arrival safe and sound. The pen was sent back to me with a shattered barrel as if too much force had been used and also an invoice for the work. On questionning, he said it wasn't his fault. I lost a £200 pen and had to pay £30 into the bargain. I guess that I had another problem when the quality of a repair to an Onoto just wasn't up to scratch but I cannot say that I had lost very much other than a cost of the work.


Accidents do happen, if for no other reason than a badly protected pen returned in the mail. Is a repairer liable to indemnify the owner if repairs go wrong when no terms and conditions have been provided?

[Deb]

I don't know but that's why I wouldn't repair your £200 pen, Fermata! I think the repairer had a hell of a cheek invoicing you after breaking your pen. I can't imagine any explanation that made breaking the pen not his fault

Onotos are difficult to repair well. I gave up on repairing them some time ago. I have two, both restored by professionals. One works very well, the other doesn't. About par for the course, I would say.

[Chrissy]

I don't know but that's why I wouldn't repair your £200 pen, Fermata! I think the repairer had a hell of a cheek invoicing you after breaking your pen. I can't imagine any explanation that made breaking the pen not his fault

Onotos are difficult to repair well. I gave up on repairing them some time ago. I have two, both restored by professionals. One works very well, the other doesn't. About par for the course, I would say.
I agree with this. If the repairer was prepared to attempt to repair the £200 pen and failed to do so for whatever reason, then actually charging for the service after breaking the pen makes no sense to me at all. :noidea:

[Fermata]

I don't know but that's why I wouldn't repair your £200 pen, Fermata! I think the repairer had a hell of a cheek invoicing you after breaking your pen. I can't imagine any explanation that made breaking the pen not his fault

Onotos are difficult to repair well. I gave up on repairing them some time ago. I have two, both restored by professionals. One works very well, the other doesn't. About par for the course, I would say.

Thanks Deb, and I guess that £200 is not that exceptional nowadays. I won't say the pen repairers name but he is well known, suffice to say that I have not been back. I think his argument was that no other pen repairer could have opened the pen and therefore he was not responsible, it was bound to happen in other words.

[guyy]

Fermata, it depends on where you are. In Anglo-American law there are conditions that are assumed to apply when you enter into contract for a repair. For example, the repair person should take reasonable care with the item. However, i imagine it would usually be difficult to prove that a repair person wasn’t careful enough.

[Fermata]

Fermata, it depends on where you are. In Anglo-American law there are conditions that are assumed to apply when you enter into contract for a repair. For example, the repair person should take reasonable care with the item. However, i imagine it would usually be difficult to prove that a repair person wasn’t careful enough.

It sounds like a legal minefield Guyy, I think that the average repairer will be a self employed person who just does their best to carry out the repair, and act in good faith. Whether every customer will be happy with that situation is another matter.

I have heard of one repairer who sent out some very expensive pens, twice, to the wrong people, now that would be a problem. Especially when the recipients denied all knowledge.

[Ron Z]

Frank Dubiel used to say that if you are going to repair pens, you are going to break pens, no matter how good or careful you are. There are hidden flaws, and inherent risks with some materials, both of which can cause a pen to break. The trick is to get your skill level to where you are firmly in the "success" column. ...and you wonder why it takes us so long sometimes? Often we're being asked to do the impossible, and rather than dive in and risk breaking the pen, we think about it and look for the best way to do a repair so that we don't break your pen.

General practice is to assess the pen when starting repair. If there are risks, I will often warn the client up front, and tell them that if it breaks there will be extra charges. If I'm finding a pen to be especially difficult to get apart, I will often write to the client and tell them what's going on, and ask if they want me to proceed. If they say keep going, I am off the hook if it breaks. I will repair it, or will help to find the part, but I'm not going to eat the cost. I've often said that the big difference between an amateur pen mechanic and the true professional is their ability to work their way back out of a repair problem, or take what would otherwise be a disaster and turn it in to a successful repair.

There are some things that break so often, that I charge for repairing the part no matter what. An example is a Vacumatic pellet cup. They break very easily, and sometimes shatter for no reason at all. I've taken fillers out of a pen to find no trace of the pellet cup. In those cases I charge for the rebuilding/repair of the filler. Parker 51 jewels are another. The stems can shear off very easily, and it is a common as dirt when you take one out to take a clip off of a pen. I will fix it if I can, or charge a minimal amount for reproduction if not, but an OEM jewel is expensive.

There have been cases where I have had to pay for an expensive part. If I'm too aggressive, if I've been impatient or something like that, sure, I eat the cost. But again, no matter how good someone is, pens will break. A blanket "it's always the pen mechanic's fault" is unrealistic, and enough to convince even the most skilled that it simply isn't worth the effort.

[Deb]

Frank Dubiel used to say that if you are going to repair pens, you are going to break pens, no matter how good or careful you are. There are hidden flaws, and inherent risks with some materials, both of which can cause a pen to break. The trick is to get your skill level to where you are firmly in the "success" column. ...and you wonder why it takes us so long sometimes? Often we're being asked to do the impossible, and rather than dive in and risk breaking the pen, we think about it and look for the best way to do a repair so that we don't break your pen.

General practice is to assess the pen when starting repair. If there are risks, I will often warn the client up front, and tell them that if it breaks there will be extra charges. If I'm finding a pen to be especially difficult to get apart, I will often write to the client and tell them what's going on, and ask if they want me to proceed. If they say keep going, I am off the hook if it breaks. I will repair it, or will help to find the part, but I'm not going to eat the cost. I've often said that the big difference between an amateur pen mechanic and the true professional is their ability to work their way back out of a repair problem, or take what would otherwise be a disaster and turn it in to a successful repair.

There are some things that break so often, that I charge for repairing the part no matter what. An example is a Vacumatic pellet cup. They break very easily, and sometimes shatter for no reason at all. I've taken fillers out of a pen to find no trace of the pellet cup. In those cases I charge for the rebuilding/repair of the filler. Parker 51 jewels are another. The stems can shear off very easily, and it is a common as dirt when you take one out to take a clip off of a pen. I will fix it if I can, or charge a minimal amount for reproduction if not, but an OEM jewel is expensive.

There have been cases where I have had to pay for an expensive part. If I'm too aggressive, if I've been impatient or something like that, sure, I eat the cost. But again, no matter how good someone is, pens will break. A blanket "it's always the pen mechanic's fault" is unrealistic, and enough to convince even the most skilled that it simply isn't worth the effort.

I agree with all of that. Ron is a braver person than I am.

[Ray-VIgo]

With a vintage pen, stuff can break, even when you follow your repair procedure properly. You're dealing with a vintage pen, and then your replacement parts even are often vintage as well. The materials can change shape, shrink, and degrade over the years in some cases. I just threw one pen into my donor drawer because the barrel had shrunk noticeably but the cap had not. The barrel and cap would not even come close to engaging. It was a part of an online junk store trove of pens and parts. A week earlier I'd fixed a pen from the same maker, same era, same model - everything fit together snugly and it fixed up just fine. The fixed pen probably got much better treatment over the past 83 years. Repairing vintage pens can be like getting your arrow into a moving target while shooting from a moving car.

[Deb]

. Repairing vintage pens can be like getting your arrow into a moving target while shooting from a moving car.

Wow! That sounds difficult!

[Chrissy]

. Repairing vintage pens can be like getting your arrow into a moving target while shooting from a moving car.

Wow! That sounds difficult!
Legolas never had a problem with that sort of thing, and he only had a horse. ;)

[Deb]

. Repairing vintage pens can be like getting your arrow into a moving target while shooting from a moving car.

Wow! That sounds difficult!
Legolas never had a problem with that sort of thing, and he only had a horse. ;)

:applause:

[grainweevil]

I've often said that the big difference between an amateur pen mechanic and the true professional is their ability to work their way back out of a repair problem, or take what would otherwise be a disaster and turn it in to a successful repair.

The difference is only ability. Whether you do it for love (amateur) or money (professional) is neither here nor there.

Sorry, it's something of a bête noire of mine. :o

[Deb]

I always think of the word "professional" as implying an appropriate level of training or education. Otherwise anyone who does anything for remuneration becomes a professional which rather devalues the term.

[Fermata]

There is some old time definition of who is a professional and that was limited to medicine, law and a couple of others, everyone else was in trade.

In car and motorcycle racing there is a difference in style between a professional and an amateur, an amateur will know their own limits for example in braking and corning, and drive to those limits, a professional will drive beyond their limits but know how and when to effect a recovery.

[Chrissy]

The sad thing is that there isn't any training (that I know of) for fountain pen repair. It has to be time served doing the job.

[grainweevil]

By all means debate the meaning of professional, but my irritation is with the assumption that being an amateur means being less skilled. It ain't necessarily so. Indeed, arguably a skilled amateur has the opportunity to do a better job as they don't have to watch the number of hours they're putting into it.

But I don't want to hijack the thread with this; as I said, it's just a particular thing of mine that I can't seem to help reacting to. I'm greatly enjoying the insight into repairer's experiences, although shooting arrows from cars less so... ;)

[Chrissy]

By all means debate the meaning of professional, but my irritation is with the assumption that being an amateur means being less skilled. It ain't necessarily so. Indeed, arguably a skilled amateur has the opportunity to do a better job as they don't have to watch the number of hours they're putting into it.

But I don't want to hijack the thread with this; as I said, it's just a particular thing of mine that I can't seem to help reacting to. I'm greatly enjoying the insight into repairer's experiences, although shooting arrows from cars less so... ;)
Shooting arrows from cars was a nice little diversion for those of us who occasionally like to think of an image of Orlando Bloom ;)

[Fermata]

The sad thing is that there isn't any training (that I know of) for fountain pen repair. It has to be time served doing the job.

I think that WES do them Chris but they are aimed at people to do their own basic pen repairs as opposed to persons wanting to set up shop.

https://www.wesonline.org.uk/librarian/pen-repair-courses/

[Deb]

By all means debate the meaning of professional, but my irritation is with the assumption that being an amateur means being less skilled. It ain't necessarily so. Indeed, arguably a skilled amateur has the opportunity to do a better job as they don't have to watch the number of hours they're putting into it.

But I don't want to hijack the thread with this; as I said, it's just a particular thing of mine that I can't seem to help reacting to. I'm greatly enjoying the insight into repairer's experiences, although shooting arrows from cars less so... ;)

I completely agree with you about the amateur/professional thing.

[Deb]

The sad thing is that there isn't any training (that I know of) for fountain pen repair. It has to be time served doing the job.

I think that WES do them Chris but they are aimed at people to do their own basic pen repairs as opposed to persons wanting to set up shop.

https://www.wesonline.org.uk/librarian/pen-repair-courses/

I didn't do those courses - in fact I've had no training - but I believe those courses are good enough to get someone started doing repairs for payment. When the courses were first offered, they were followed by several new people offering repair services - a very good thing! My familiarisation with pen repair was several years of repairing pens for myself, then selling on eBay followed by a web-based sales site and blog. 3246 pens to date! Mind you, I'm not repairing against the clock - or even repairing every day in normal times (remember them?). We have other sources of income, as most people in this business do - even some of the very best.