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Flounder
July 2nd, 2013, 12:58 PM
Before coming to a conclusion about this matter for yourself, please read Mr. Crooks response, which I've included in the last post here (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3177-The-worst-workmanship-I-ve-yet-encountered-Carneil-Pens?p=43883&viewfull=1#post43883).

Regards,

Dannzeman
FPG Admin

I've seen poor service before, but never publicised it until today's travesty - the following is that far beyond the beyonds.

Today I received my rolled silver Parker 51 cap, which I sent Peter Crook of Carneil Pens (http://carneilpens.co.uk/) on the 19th of June. I had asked for the loose, scratched-to-hades clutch basket to be swapped out for one I had polished the worst of the scratches out of, and for the fingers of said basket to be adjusted to match the tension of a supplied gold filled cap. See here: http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_PeterCrook-1.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/PeterCrook-1.jpg.html) or here: 3791

1. The clutch has not been swapped. The scratched basket is still in the cap, and the polished basket has not been installed.

2. As with most early 51 caps, this one has an obvious tab for the clip to slot onto, preventing rotation. This has been ignored/overlooked, and the clip jammed on askew. A fresh smile mars the silver body of the cap. i am *stunned* that an engineer would fail to locate a tab in a slot, much less install a clip without holding it in place whilst screwing in the brass spigot.

3. My original translucent cap jewel has been taken, and an inferior opaque jewel put in in its place. I am in *no doubt* of this whatsoever.

4. Roughly three quarters of the cap's lower circumference has a new and *very ugly* mark.

5. My cheque has been cashed, in spite of the above.

My jaw is pretty much on the floor. This is the first time I have used Peter Crook's services, and that the above applies to the work of a qualified engineer beggars belief. I am stunned that a professional would be happy to represent his work in such a fashion, without a word of explanation, much less apology.

It's quite understandable that the reader may look askance at my having posted here in the first instance, rather that attempt to resolve this back channel (as I did in the single other instance I was on the receiving end of poor service, from a different Scottish restorer). I can only say that the above surpasses the limit of what I consider competent or even honest. With nothing further to go on, I simply don't believe that giving Mr. Crook another chance would not result in further damage to my cap. Personally speaking, I have essentially worthless caps I treat with more care than Mr Crook has shown this paying customer's P51 cap.

I would appreciate an immediate refund, less Peter Crook's postage costs. I *insist* that my original translucent cap jewel is returned immediately. I will in turn send Mr. Crook's opaque jewel, upon receipt of the former.

I am happy to forward original resolution photographs and all correspondence to the forum moderators regarding this matter.


1. The scratched up basket, still in the cap after my cheque was cashed:
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_Scratchedupbasketstillincap2.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/Scratchedupbasketstillincap2.jpg.html)

and
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_Scratchedupbasketstillincap.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/Scratchedupbasketstillincap.jpg.html)

my polished basket, unused (and returned rubbing against the gold filled cap, rather than safely secured on the P51's back end as I sent, I am sorry to say)
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_PolishedClutch016.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/PolishedClutch016.jpg.html)
and
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_PolishedClutch019.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/PolishedClutch019.jpg.html)

2. Clip incorrectly aligned (and probably stressing the plastic inner cap, as it's jammed in at an angle):
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_ThistabisNOTOPTIONAL.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/ThistabisNOTOPTIONAL.jpg.html)
and
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_ThistabisNOTOPTIONAL2.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/ThistabisNOTOPTIONAL2.jpg.html)

fresh smile on the cap body:
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_Smile023.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/Smile023.jpg.html)

and

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_Smile028.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/Smile028.jpg.html)

3. My original, translucent jewel, photographed here before I bought the correct gold clip for this rolled silver P51 cap:
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_MyOriginalP51jewel.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/MyOriginalP51jewel.jpg.html)
or check my blog post of 26/03/12:
http://flounders-mindthots.blogspot.com/2012/03/parker-51-vacumatic-capping-it-all-off.html

The jewel after return from Peter Crook of Carneil Pens:
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_ThisisNOTmyP51jewelCarneilPens.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/ThisisNOTmyP51jewelCarneilPens.jpg.html)

4. WTF is this?
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_WTF24.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/WTF24.jpg.html)
and
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_WTF25.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/WTF25.jpg.html)
and
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_WTF4.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/WTF4.jpg.html)
and
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_WTF5.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/WTF5.jpg.html)

Tony Rex
July 3rd, 2013, 06:37 AM
Now, we know emotions run high when someone is left with a sour experience. Because of that we will be watching each and every post that is made in this forum. Keep your posts civil and subjective. We only want the facts. We don't care what you think of the person who did the work. His personality is not being reviewed, his work is.

From this sub forum rules. And read the third paragraph as well. http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/4-Market-Feedback-Rules?p=4&viewfull=1#post4

oldstoat
July 3rd, 2013, 09:51 AM
To get back to the original subject of the the thread, I once bought a "fully serviced" Parker Slimfold from this supplier. It wouldn't fill- because as I discovered, the sac was the wrong size and hadn't been shellacked in. It was repaired , but grudgingly.

Not reviewing the person but the goods.

Flounder
July 3rd, 2013, 10:52 AM
Deb, I'm sorry if i didn't make this clear above: it is my intention to resolve this publicly, for the reasons given above. I notified Peter Crook roughly 20 minutes after posting here that I had done so (how else would I hope for my jewel's return?) and that this forum offers the right of reply. I also PMed Dan to make him aware of this thread, as it is my first in this subforum and I wanted to make sure any breach of the rules could be addressed.

This cap should never have left the bench in such a state. If Mr. Crook is happy to chance sending his work out to the world like this, with not a word of explanation and having taken payment, let him account for it out in the open - as he has neglected to do privately.

In answer to Jon's question, I chose Carneil Pens because they are UK based, they are recommended by Onoto as having "previously carried out work to a high standard in the UK: " (and Onoto pens are not the simplest), and Peter Crook is a qualified engineer (Eur.Ing.)

Again - I would like a refund less Peter Crook's postage costs, and I *insist* that my original, translucent jewel is returned immediately.

Deb
July 3rd, 2013, 11:35 AM
I appreciate the points that you make, Flounder, and I'm aware of the problem that you raise, Laura N. A fair and successful feedback forum is something I have yet to see (at least where complaints are concerned) and I applaud FPG for taking things a step in the right direction. I note that apart from this post there are two others dealing with poor service. In neither case has there been a response. So far, so bad.

However, I hope the repairer responds in this case and a mutually satisfactory solution can be found.

Annie
July 3rd, 2013, 12:10 PM
Deb, I'm sorry if i didn't make this clear above: it is my intention to resolve this publicly, for the reasons given above. I notified Peter Crook roughly 20 minutes after posting here that I had done so (how else would I hope for my jewel's return?) and that this forum offers the right of reply. I also PMed Dan to make him aware of this thread, as it is my first in this subforum and I wanted to make sure any breach of the rules could be addressed.

This cap should never have left the bench in such a state. If Mr. Crook is happy to chance sending his work out to the world like this, with not a word of explanation and having taken payment, let him account for it out in the open - as he has neglected to do privately.

In answer to Jon's question, I chose Carneil Pens because they are UK based, they are recommended by Onoto as having "previously carried out work to a high standard in the UK: " (and Onoto pens are not the simplest), and Peter Crook is a qualified engineer (Eur.Ing.)

Again - I would like a refund less Peter Crook's postage costs, and I *insist* that my original, translucent jewel is returned immediately.

If I took my black Yaris to the garage for repair or service and was palmed off with a.n.other black Yaris, I'd whip out my phone and call plod because this is fraud, no matter what side of the pond you are on. If this repair person agreed to do the work and you sent him the pen and the work was not done, that is breach of contract and since this repair person is in the UK, he is beholding to Trading Standards. To further ding your cap is vandalism and should be reported as such.

This repairer should be beating down your door with a full refund for failing to provide the service you paid for, sending back your property (i.e. your jewel, because let's be clear, it is yours) and compensating your for further dinging your cap.

Dealing with Trading Standards and small claims courts is not difficult stuff, even if you are on the other side of the pond and if you need help with that, do please let me know. My own experience with a different apparently well respected pen person lead to a claim being filed and his cheque to compensate.

I have no problem at all with someone who, for whatever reason, cannot do the stated work so long as they don't expect to be paid for it. This repair person has the right to reply and put things right or to provide evidence to prove that what you are saying is bullshit. I'll watch and wait. In the meantime, I'm really sorry for you and for your pen.

Flounder
July 3rd, 2013, 03:25 PM
Here is the a (cropped, you will understand) screenshot from my bank showing the cheque was cashed on the 28th of June.
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_Carneilpens-ChequeCashed28thJune.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/Carneilpens-ChequeCashed28thJune.jpg.html)

Here is the Royal Mail track and trace (http://www.royalmail.com/track-trace) confirmation showing Carneil Pen's package was delivered to me on the 2nd of July.
"Your item with reference BY395523405GB was delivered from our SHAWLANDS Delivery Office on 02/07/13"

Here is a photo of the entire contents of the package, less a length of bubblewrap: My rolled silver cap and Vac51 in one rigid tube, my grandfather's gold filled cap and the polished basket rubbing against one another in the other tube, and a leaflet advertising Carneil Pen's services. There was no "invoice to settle up" as claimed. Rather, I hope, the above proves that the cheque was cashed before the package was sent to me.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/th_CarneilPenspackage.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/flounder2009/media/Carneil%20Pens%20Workmanship/CarneilPenspackage.jpg.html)

Here is Peter Crook's response. Aside from the standard PFO, there is a lot here that is highly singular. It is hard to know where to begin. For what it is worth, the jewel and brass bush were separated intact last year by the same restorer I bought the gold clip from.

I *insist* that my jewel be returned. Judging from Peter Crook's response, the refund will either come via trading standards, or if is possible and the fee not prohibitive, via getting my bank to stop the cheque.


Your note of yesterday was more than a surprise. I find it unfortunate that you have chosen to follow the route that you have taken in posting it on the internet in the way that you have without any recourse to me in the first instance. In my view this has made the matter much more difficult to handle. As you will have found, and this is a clear matter of fact, I choose to send out work done along with an invoice for a customer to settle up having had chance to inspect my work. I do this with confidence and I have a large collection of most pleasant and positive commendations. Surely a personal contact describing your issues, without public exposure, and before any payment was sent, would have been a more business like and gentlemanly approach. As it is I find that your complaint, regardless of any merit, has been posted on a website without any reply from me being laid alongside. A consequence is that some of the remarks posted by others, having only your comments to hand, are at the very least insulting and in some instances personally so.

I turn to the practicalities of the work I did :-

1. Adjustment of the clutch, [the word used by Parker rather than basket], in a 51 cap involves its removal from the cap. The first step in this is to remove the tassie or jewel from the top of the cap. These are bonded into the cap retaining screw by Parker during manufacture. On only about 50% of occasions is it possible to remove this usually aged and discoloured plastic component without either damage to its surface or broken screw threads on this tassie. Heat is carefully used but failure is common. A stock of new pearl tassies [bought from the USA] is kept so as to be ready for this eventuality. After the tassie is taken off, the clip can be unscrewed and the outside of the cap can be protected with tape ready for extraction of the clutch using a special tool which is able to draw the clutch out of the cap. The clutch in your cap, whilst needing adjustment to set the cap to barrel setting, was in good order in my view, so I judged that there was little point in replacement. Here I must point out that a disagreement by you on this point would have been a simple matter to put right should you have disagreed with my keeping back the spare for your future use.

After setting the clutch by fitting it on the barrel, and comparing the fit with the sample you sent, the cap was reassembled and a new tassie fitted. On reassembly I am perfectly aware that the clip has a recess in the top of the cap [in most instances –but not always] and I am convinced that your clip was put back in this way. My final check is to sight the clip to ensure it correct alignment. Your comments are therefore a puzzle to me, although I must add that, again, it would have been a simple matter to put right regardless of how this came about.

2. You refer to marks and scratches on the cap. The cap is protected with tape during the work and I cannot accept your remarks on this as being of relevance to me.

I repeat my opening comments. Any issues arising from the work I did for you could surely have been cleared up without giving others the opportunity to throw unnecessary personal insults. Finally I stress that these notes are addressed to you and have not been put forward to the forum you chose to use . I prefer to tackle any difficulties at a personal level in a business like manner as befits the approach of my profession

Eur.Ing.Peter crook

Annie
July 3rd, 2013, 04:42 PM
Flounder,

If it were me, I would ask that your jewel - the one that was 'broken,' still be returned to you, even if it is now in kit form. During similar problems with an entirely different repair person, I was told by Trading Standards that 'broken' parts were still your property and you should have them back. Last year, I did a sac replacement on a friend's pen. When I returned the pen, I also returned the old sac so that he could see for himself why it was never going to work. Had your package also contained a brief note explaining that your jewel had 'broken' you might feel a little better. The cap dings are still unexplained. I hope you get a refund as promptly as the cheque was cashed.


I rarely send pens away for work but when I do, I use a UV pen to mark the nib, shell, barrel, clip and any other part I can.

dannzeman
July 3rd, 2013, 05:09 PM
The off topic conversation between Deb, Jon, and myself has been moved here (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3191-Need-community-input-to-make-this-forum-successful).

Tony Rex
July 4th, 2013, 03:16 AM
Shame that Mr. Crook refused to tell his side. Qui tacet consentire...

Deb
July 4th, 2013, 03:51 AM
Shame that Mr. Crook refused to tell his side. Qui tacet consentire...

But he did reply, to his customer and that was reported here, so there's no silence to be considered one way or another. If you refuse to recognise his response because it wasn't posted here by him, you're a little out of touch with reality. That's one of the problems: FPG is not a court. It cannot summon people to appear before it.

By token of the same regard, why did not the OP contact the repairer first before coming here? I can't imagine a situation in which I would use a pen group as the first place to go when I have a dispute with another individual.

Tony Rex
July 4th, 2013, 04:15 AM
It is still one sided regardless. I only heard from Flounder so far. And by his defensive *ahem* manner, whether in silence or not, he's admitting fault.

Deb
July 4th, 2013, 04:24 AM
It is still one sided regardless. I only heard from Flounder so far. And by his defensive *ahem* manner, whether in silence or not, he's admitting fault.

I suggest you read further back up the thread, then. It's normal to be defensive when accused. How do you know what Mr. Crook's manner is if you haven't heard from him? Frankly, I can't decide between them. I have no basis to do so. All I take away from this is that I'll be sure to avoid dealing with either of them.

Tony Rex
July 4th, 2013, 04:59 AM
Poor Flounder left with a worse pen, less money, and now no one will believe him let alone help him.

I know some cultural difficulties for some in recognising their monarch, but customer is king, and they have the right to have their jewel back. I wish him AND Mr Crook well.

Deb
July 4th, 2013, 05:07 AM
I believe Mr. Cook has explained that the "jewel" was broken in removal. He has replaced it with another one. I don't think it likely that he will have kept the broken bits to return to Flounder. That's not reasonable.

I think this example shows that the Feedback Forum doesn't benefit anyone in disputes.

Annie
July 4th, 2013, 06:24 AM
I believe Mr. Cook has explained that the "jewel" was broken in removal. He has replaced it with another one. I don't think it likely that he will have kept the broken bits to return to Flounder. That's not reasonable.

I think this example shows that the Feedback Forum doesn't benefit anyone in disputes.

I think it's unreasonable to switch pen parts for whatever reason without informing the owner that it was done and why.

Deb
July 4th, 2013, 06:41 AM
Maybe you're right. I don't know what common practice is as I don't repair pens for others. When that happens to me, and it does often as they're so fragile, the bits go in the bin and I source a replacement. Wanting the broken bits of a generic part seems like making a fuss for its own sake to me. Should repairers be sending back the bits of the old sac too?

Sailor Kenshin
July 4th, 2013, 06:59 AM
Poor Flounder left with a worse pen, less money, and now no one will believe him let alone help him.

I know some cultural difficulties for some in recognising their monarch, but customer is king, and they have the right to have their jewel back. I wish him AND Mr Crook well.

And I don't blame anyone for wanting to learn and do repairs on his own. It seems the safest way, because even a good repairman can have an off day, and no one loves your pen the way you do.

dduran
July 4th, 2013, 08:38 AM
Maybe you're right. I don't know what common practice is as I don't repair pens for others. When that happens to me, and it does often as they're so fragile, the bits go in the bin and I source a replacement. Wanting the broken bits of a generic part seems like making a fuss for its own sake to me. Should repairers be sending back the bits of the old sac too?

There's a big difference between a hard to find jewel and a "replaceable" sac. I'm not trying to defend anyone here but how would you feel if it happened to a pen that you VALUE. Actually it would have been ok if Mr. Crook ASKED for feedback/permission first. Maybe Flounder can clarify this part.

Again, Customer is King. Even if an expert decides not to replace this (clutch) or replace that (jewel), at the end of the day it's the customer's right to decide. The repairer in turn could walk away if he doesn't want to do it. If you look at Flounder's letter, he was very SPECIFIC to what he wanted, which wasn't done (replace clutch).

Deb
July 4th, 2013, 08:54 AM
Actually, there's no difference. A "jewel" - actually a clip stud - isn't at all hard to find. They're expensive, of course, but one's as expensive as another. The jewel, according to the repairer broke on extraction and had to be replaced. What d'you want a broken piece of plastic back for? It's scrap with no possible use.

Annie
July 4th, 2013, 10:31 AM
Actually, there's no difference. A "jewel" - actually a clip stud - isn't at all hard to find. They're expensive, of course, but one's as expensive as another. The jewel, according to the repairer broke on extraction and had to be replaced. What d'you want a broken piece of plastic back for? It's scrap with no possible use.

Its 'use' even as scrap is as evidence as to why it was replaced without the customer's consent.

Laura N
July 4th, 2013, 10:43 AM
I believe Mr. Cook has explained that the "jewel" was broken in removal. He has replaced it with another one. I don't think it likely that he will have kept the broken bits to return to Flounder. That's not reasonable.

I think this example shows that the Feedback Forum doesn't benefit anyone in disputes.

I have to disagree respectfully with the last sentence. I don't think Flounder is using this post to work out a dispute, but instead to offer feedback on a pen repair. Which I think is fair. And I do think a feedback forum benefits consumers. It also benefits good repair people.

We all share feedback like this amongst our friends anyway. The internet has made so much public. Now everything and everyone seems to be discussed and rated online. Even teachers are "rated" by their students. Some of us may feel a little squeamish about the situation, but it is what it is. Surely everyone over the age of 14 reads these things skeptically.

I agree with Deb that replacing a broken jewel is frequently necessary in this kind of repair. Perhaps if it had been explained in the first place, the pen's owner would have understood.

Flounder
July 4th, 2013, 10:58 AM
In a sort of 'whose truth (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3191-Need-community-input-to-make-this-forum-successful?p=37589&viewfull=1#post37589)' debate in the community input thread related to this one, Jon asks "Just how are *we* to consider one set of "facts" over another? ".

* Is it likely I would spend £16.50 to have the clutch basket, of all things, swapped for a hand-polished one in a 51 cap that already looked like a lump of scrap on the outside?

* Does that clip smile in the silver look brand new, or oxidised with age?

* Read the thread. Peter Crook has now *admitted* my original cap jewel was swapped out for a modern facsimile.

Given Mr Crook's explanation of his repair methods, I am convinced the tight spiral tracked lower area damage is the result of inadequate precautions taken during basket extraction.

I feel the need to reply to Deb's input, "I believe Mr. Cook has explained that the "jewel" was broken in removal. He has replaced it with another one. I don't think it likely that he will have kept the broken bits to return to Flounder. That's not reasonable (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3177-The-worst-workmanship-I-ve-yet-encountered-Carneil-Pens?p=37600&viewfull=1#post37600)."

You presume his (belated) account is the truth, then, Deb. BTW his name is Crook (http://www.carneilpens.co.uk/contact.htm) not Cook. I'm going to speak plainly: you and I have utterly different ideas on what is reasonable. Here are mine.

If a restorer's breakage rate is fully 50% for *ANY* part, it is reasonable to include words to that effect on their website (http://www.carneilpens.co.uk/restore.htm), or let a customer know during correspondence, so that the customer may make an informed decision BEFORE taking on their services.

FAILING the above, it is reasonable to assume that if a restorer BREAKS part of a customer's pen during servicing, the RESTORER should contact the CUSTOMER to INFORM THEM OF THAT FACT and ASK whether the CUSTOMER wants the restorer to attempt to proceed any further.

That's what I consider reasonable. That's what I consider "a business like manner as befits the approach of my profession".

Instead, Peter Crook took on this work knowing it was a coin toss whether or not HE would break an original part, kept that fact quiet, now claims he broke the part (I maintain that the jewel was freed from the brass bush just last year, and not "bonded in", I have seen them apart with clean threads with my own eyes. Given the rest of the subterfuge employed, I still hope that my cap jewel is intact and will be returned) kept THAT quiet, replaced it with a modern reproduction, kept THAT quiet, DIDN'T UNDERTAKE THE WORK PAID FOR, kept THAT quiet, cashed my cheque, fingers crossed and off it goes. I consider this unreasonable. Unreasonable? This is a train wreck.

Deb asks ""By token of the same regard, why did not the OP contact the repairer first before coming here? I can't imagine a situation in which I would use a pen group as the first place to go when I have a dispute with another individual. (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3177-The-worst-workmanship-I-ve-yet-encountered-Carneil-Pens?p=37595&viewfull=1#post37595)"

I've already explained this, but will elaborate if the message is not getting through.

The gestalt above is such a "situation", and thank heavens it is my first. Having kept schtum even after sending the package, Peter Crook ought to have contacted ME at the FIRST OPPORTUNITY to explain that in spite of all prior arrangement- and having taken my money - he had arbitrarily decided not to swap the cap's clutch basket (WTF ??). HE should have contacted ME to explain that he broke the cap's original jewel and replaced it with a modern facsimile. HE should have contacted ME to explain the damage to the cap's lower circumference.

The onus should NEVER have been on ME, the customer, to scrabble about looking up photos to compare, stare at the unused polished clutch basket in dumb amazement, check dates, etc. in an attempt to piece together the facts.

The restorer states a preference " to tackle any difficulties at a personal level". I would argue there is a pressing need for the exact opposite, and for Peter Crook to be much more open about what goes on before, during, and after a customer's pen hits his bench.

If Deb does not agree with the points I've raised (I'm forming that impression (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3177-The-worst-workmanship-I-ve-yet-encountered-Carneil-Pens?p=37610&viewfull=1#post37610)), we can at least agree to adopt her idea to avoid ever dealing with one another. That Deb has read Crook's reply, yet has not herself picked up on any of the objections I have just highlighted, does incline me to assume this the best policy.

SK, I do repair my own pens, and enjoy this aspect of the hobby immensely. Unfortunately, this particular work requires prohibitively expensive tools for the hobbyist to undertake.

FPGeeks is relatively young. It has been suggested that the market feedback forum on the board be scrapped (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3191-Need-community-input-to-make-this-forum-successful?p=37578&viewfull=1#post37578). I suggest that had there been a market feedback forum on longer established boards from the beginning, Carneil Pens would have set straight their toxic business practises long before today. That the above should occur in 2013 shows how well the lack of a feedback system preserves a deeply flawed status quo.

Deb
July 4th, 2013, 11:39 AM
I have no idea who to believe. I don't presume that either of you is telling the truth or lying. The evidence just isn't there. This is just like all the other "feedback" I've seen in the groups - assertion, innuendo and character assassination.

At this point I'm no further on in my assessment of Mr. Crook - he of the unfortunate name that you seem to want to make something of - than I was yesterday. As a pen restorer his explanation sounds fine to me. His main problem seems to have been in not communicating the situation. Of course you chose, for no good reason, not to communicate with him. Now you're getting into the bold print and the upper case which, as we all know, shows the crystal-clear cogency of your argument. You're not looking for a solution; you're just looking to destroy the guy's reputation - a small-minded goal to aim for. For all I know, Mr. Crook is a hopeless repairer but you haven't showed that, no matter how much you shout. And, of course, by your own admission, this isn't the first time you've had a kerfuffle with a repairer. I think the pair of you need your heads knocked together and locked in a darkened room until you sort out your differences.

Oh, and just before I shake the dust of this foolishness of my shoes, "If a restorer's breakage rate is fully 50% for *ANY* part, it is reasonable to include words to that effect on their website, or let a customer know during correspondence, so that the customer may make an informed decision BEFORE taking on their services." You really are out of your depth.

Jon Szanto
July 4th, 2013, 11:59 AM
What is a "clip smile"? Or "cap smile"? (original post mentioned "smile" and "cap")

Is there a track record of Mr. Crook having a high number of dissatisfied customers?

Right now, as i read this thread, we have one very upset customer, and a repairman who disputes some of the presented information. It appears to be a transaction that did not have a happy ending, but it is also not the way I would have chosen to deal with the situation (having this all play out in public). In another thread, there are posts noting both very positive and very negative experiences with an eBay seller - how is anyone to draw a conclusion from something like that? As in my second question above, if we were to have ten people post that they had fantastic experiences with Mr. Crook, it wouldn't change for a moment the problems that Flounder has had, or his/her obvious outrage.

Annie
July 4th, 2013, 12:14 PM
I have no idea who to believe. I don't presume that either of you is telling the truth or lying. The evidence just isn't there. This is just like all the other "feedback" I've seen in the groups - assertion, innuendo and character assassination.

At this point I'm no further on in my assessment of Mr. Crook - he of the unfortunate name that you seem to want to make something of - than I was yesterday. As a pen restorer his explanation sounds fine to me. His main problem seems to have been in not communicating the situation. Of course you chose, for no good reason, not to communicate with him. Now you're getting into the bold print and the upper case which, as we all know, shows the crystal-clear cogency of your argument. You're not looking for a solution; you're just looking to destroy the guy's reputation - a small-minded goal to aim for. For all I know, Mr. Crook is a hopeless repairer but you haven't showed that, no matter how much you shout. And, of course, by your own admission, this isn't the first time you've had a kerfuffle with a repairer. I think the pair of you need your heads knocked together and locked in a darkened room until you sort out your differences.

Oh, and just before I shake the dust of this foolishness of my shoes, "If a restorer's breakage rate is fully 50% for *ANY* part, it is reasonable to include words to that effect on their website, or let a customer know during correspondence, so that the customer may make an informed decision BEFORE taking on their services." You really are out of your depth.

"I don't presume that either of you is telling the truth or lying. The evidence just isn't there. "
I disagree. The clutch ring was not replaced and yet the repairer charged for it. Flounder noticed the swapped jewel when the parts were returned to him but the repairer said nothing about it until he was challenged. The 'smile' damage to the cap which the repairer seems to have no knowledge of. It is my view that this is ample evidence that Flounder has given us an accurate account of events.

"At this point I'm no further on in my assessment of Mr. Crook - he of the unfortunate name that you seem to want to make something of - than I was yesterday. As a pen restorer his explanation sounds fine to me."
I think you called the repairer Mr Cook when his name is actually Mr Crook. I believe it is right to point out the error so that, in the event there is indeed a repairer called Mr Cook, the two are not confused. You find the repairer's explanation satisfactory and presumably would be happy for his services, should you require them, to be employed on your own pens. Isn't it great that you have been able to reach that view having heard both sides of the problem?

"You're not looking for a solution; you're just looking to destroy the guy's reputation - a small-minded goal to aim for."
I disagree. I do not think Flounder was trying to destroy anything. I have found his detailed review of this repair person's work informative and helpful. I also found the repair person's response to Flounder informative and enlightening.

Laura N
July 4th, 2013, 12:25 PM
... In another thread, there are posts noting both very positive and very negative experiences with an eBay seller - how is anyone to draw a conclusion from something like that? As in my second question above, if we were to have ten people post that they had fantastic experiences with Mr. Crook, it wouldn't change for a moment the problems that Flounder has had, or his/her obvious outrage.

Yes. There is rarely one clear conclusion from any given set of facts. It's up to each of us to evaluate the situation for herself or himself.

But I am firmly on the side of more disclosure, more opinions and more speech. When I used to read another pen forum a lot, especially as a beginner, I would come across un-contradicted glowing reports about certain merchants, repair people or manufacturers. Not realizing that only positive speech was allowed, I unconsciously concluded that the fountain pen world was a type of Lake Wobegon, where everyone and everything was above-average. As a result, I wasted some real money, and wound up paying for some shoddy repair work. Not the worst thing in the world, of course, but significant to me, and deflating.

I would rather have others' honest feedback available, even if it doesn't square with my experiences. Some things I just ignore or dismiss, some things I file under "these things happen" or "everyone has different tastes," but many things I learn from. I think it makes me a more educated consumer, just generally. I rarely post negative feedback myself, however, so I'm kind of a wimp. It's good some people are braver.

oldstoat
July 4th, 2013, 12:30 PM
Poor Flounder left with a worse pen, less money, and now no one will believe him let alone help him.

I know some cultural difficulties for some in recognising their monarch, but customer is king, and they have the right to have their jewel back. I wish him AND Mr Crook well.

I couldn't agree more. There are very few pen repairers out there, and it may be that some of them believe that they know more about pens and can therefore treat their customers as if they mean nothing.Apart from anything else, it's poor business to treat an evidently knowledgeable customer badly, because they know when they're being bullshitted. I've got to say, on the evidence presented, that the pen came back worse than it went, and rather than an apology, and replacement, compensation, apology or redress of some kind, the customer is being told "I cannot accept your remarks on this as being of relevance to me.

Sorry but that's not defensive, that's contemptuous.

Jon Szanto
July 4th, 2013, 12:48 PM
Yes. There is rarely one clear conclusion from any given set of facts. It's up to each of us to evaluate the situation for herself or himself. But I am firmly on the side of more disclosure, more opinions and more speech.
Complete agreement here: I have no desire to stifle discussion. I'd like to see it on as high a level as possible, and not simply vitriol and venting, but I'd rather scroll past that than have it censored. If anything I've said implies otherwise, I apologize.

And you are no wimp.

Flounder
July 4th, 2013, 01:27 PM
Jon, what I refer to as a smile is the mark on the body of a cap caused by movement of the clip's end against it (during rough handling, etc). Daniel Kirchheimer's site has a photo illustrating this, which he (probably more properly) calls "a bright circumferential line (http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Pen_Restoration/Gorstein_Lined_Sterling_51.htm)".

Jon Szanto
July 4th, 2013, 01:30 PM
Thanks, Flounder! I pictured "smile" as a curved line, but what you describe makes sense, and if indeed that line did not exist before the repair, I would be unhappy.

Annie
July 4th, 2013, 02:02 PM
Jon, what I refer to as a smile is the mark on the body of a cap caused by movement of the clip's end against it (during rough handling, etc). Daniel Kirchheimer's site has a photo illustrating this, which he (probably more properly) calls "a bright circumferential line (http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Pen_Restoration/Gorstein_Lined_Sterling_51.htm)".

Flounder,

Are you sure this is your cap? Could a 'mistake' have happened and the wrong cap has been returned to you?

Flounder
July 4th, 2013, 02:35 PM
Annie, in addition to the familiarity we enthusiasts have with every individual nuance of our pens, this cap has a wee tell-tale area at its mouth, where the rolled silver layer has worn away. You can just make this out to the bottom left of the word "Parker" in my 26/03/12 blogpost photos (http://flounders-mindthots.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/parker-51-vacumatic-capping-it-all-off.html), and in the "WTF is this" set of photos at the beginning of this post. It is, unfortunately, the same cap.

Annie
July 4th, 2013, 03:09 PM
Annie, in addition to the familiarity we enthusiasts have with every individual nuance of our pens, this cap has a wee tell-tale area at its mouth, where the rolled silver layer has worn away. You can just make this out to the bottom left of the word "Parker" in my 26/03/12 blogpost photos (http://flounders-mindthots.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/parker-51-vacumatic-capping-it-all-off.html), and in the "WTF is this" set of photos at the beginning of this post. It is, unfortunately, the same cap.

Oh, that's a shame. Yes, I know what you mean about the familiarity of certain pens. Some of my favourite pens I would know blindfolded just by the weight in my hand and the feel of the nib.

ThriveToScribe
July 4th, 2013, 05:12 PM
I agree with Deb that replacing a broken jewel is frequently necessary in this kind of repair. Perhaps if it had been explained in the first place, the pen's owner would have understood.

Touché, Laura, and that seems to be the crux of the matter. The pen restorer may be so accustomed to the breakage and replacement things happening, he forgets that the customer is expecting a repair and doesn't have any idea of what can go wrong. A note sent with the pen explaining why the pen was not returned as expected would have prevented a very customer and created an educated one. (At least now more of us know what can happen because the problem was posted, for what it's worth).

HughC
July 5th, 2013, 05:13 AM
I think this is a case where things simply "went wrong"...as it does for all of us at times. Flounders expectations where reasonable, he doesn't appear to have expected anything unreasonable or unachievable. The repairer "had a bad day", simple as that ( how many "bad days" he has isn't know but I assume a level of competency with the services he offers) and it's always hard to admit "I stuffed up" which from what's been presented he should do. Again it's simple, he addresses the issues in an open and reasonable manner, Flounder gets his pen repaired as it should have been and Mr Crook gets on with his business. Why anyone who offers a service and doesn't address customer issues promptly and with an eye to resolution defies logic because they potentially become the biggest loser.

Regards
Hugh

dannzeman
July 5th, 2013, 11:41 AM
I'm going to close this thread. If Mr. Crooks decides to respond, I'll open it long enough for him to do so.

dannzeman
August 11th, 2013, 06:24 PM
Flounder PM'd me with this short message:


Hi Dan, if you want to update the locked thread (or not), I received a refund from Peter Crook. I don't care either way, but the long and the short of it is he did send a cheque refunding my payment, it didn't bounce, and the time limit for reversing it has expired.

dannzeman
August 25th, 2013, 03:54 PM
The following is an email I received from Mr. Crook regarding this situation. I'm leaving my words in italics here instead of putting Mr. Crook's response in a quote because reading that much text in italic is just a pain in the ass. - dannzeman

Good morning Dan,

You will perhaps recall we had a short communication a couple of weeks ago after a highly critical message about my workmanship was published on your fpgeeks forum. I expressed my concern over not having been given a right to reply before it was published, and also some of the personal insults that appeared. Of course I recognise that your forum is well meaning and I am sure that you will have been uncomfortable with the tone of this. I chose to do nothing further as to be quite frank , time is precious to me as I have much to do , eg I have just been looking at repairs arrived from Hungary, France, and Airdrie. The French one is from a gentleman whom I have done Parker work before.

I was in the workshop making slip caps for an early Onoto plunger filler and a Swan eydropper. For your interest I attach a photo of the end result. Whilst doing this I was musing on a thought that I was receiving a drop off in repair enquiries. When in for coffee I had a look on Google for Carneil Pens. The reason for this change was immediately obvious in the form a vituperative report through your forum on the standard of my workmanship. I take great pride in my work and to see this stuff so widely published was something of a shock.

Since the first note on your forum I have had direct communication with the perpetrator of this, Mr Rousias. I wrote to him at some length and include a copy of that here [complaint3]
Mr Roushias,


Your note of yesterday was more than a surprise. I find it unfortunate
that you have chosen to follow the route that you have taken in posting it on the internet in the way that you have without any recourse to me in the first instance. In my view this has made the matter much more difficult to handle. As you will have found, and this is a clear matter of fact, I choose to send out work done along with an invoice for a customer to settle up having had chance to inspect my work. I do this with confidence and I have a large collection of most pleasant and positive commendations. Surely a personal contact describing your issues, without public exposure, and before any payment was sent, would have been a more business like and gentlemanly approach. As it is I find that your complaint, regardless of any merit, has been posted on a website without any reply from me being laid alongside. A consequence is that some of the remarks posted by others, having only your comments to hand, are at the very least insulting and in some instances personally so.

I turn to the practicalities of the work I did :-

1. Adjustment of the clutch, [the word used by Parker rather than basket], in a 51 cap involves its removal from the cap. The first step in this is to remove the tassie or jewel from the top of the cap. These are bonded into the cap retaining screw by Parker during manufacture. On only about 50% of occasions is it possible to remove this usually aged and discoloured plastic component without either damage to its surface or broken screw threads on this tassie. Heat is carefully used but failure is common. A stock of new pearl tassies [bought from the USA] is kept so as to be ready for this eventuality. After the tassie is taken off, the clip can be unscrewed and the outside of the cap can be protected with tape ready for extraction of the clutch using a special tool which is able to draw the clutch out of the cap. The clutch in your cap, whilst needing adjustment to set the cap to barrel setting, was in good order in my view, so I judged that there was little point in replacement. Here I must point out that a disagreement by you on this point would have been a simple matter to put right should you have disagreed with my keeping back the spare for your future use.
After setting the clutch by fitting it on the barrel, and comparing the fit with the sample you sent, the cap was reassembled and a new tassie fitted. On reassembly I am perfectly aware that the clip has a recess in the top of the cap [in most instances –but not always] and I am convinced that your clip was put back in this way. My final check is to sight the clip to ensure it correct alignment. Your comments are therefore a puzzle to me, although I must add that, again, it would have been a simple matter to put right regardless of how this came about.

2. You refer to marks and scratches on the cap. The cap is protected with tape during the work and I cannot accept your remarks on this as being of relevance to me.

I repeat my opening comments. Any issues arising from the work I did for you could surely have been cleared up without giving others the opportunity to throw unnecessary personal insults. Finally I stress that these notes are addressed to you and have not been put forward to the forum you chose to use . I prefer to tackle any difficulties at a personal level in a business like manner as befits the approach of my profession

Eur.Ing.Peter crook


. I had thought to copy this to you for your forum but at the time I did prefer to try and keep the matter between him and I, even though he had already chosen not to. I try to operate in a gentlemanly and businesslike way. In reading this over I see no mention of the main reason for him sending me the repair in the first instance. The main object of the work was to match the fitting of a 51 cap, by adjusting the clutch , with a complete pen that he sent as a sample whose cap in a way that suited. He has not mentioned that this was achieved exactly. He also made immediate payment. I then received a recorded letter by which he claimed to have made a formal complaint to the trading standards authority [ the job cost him £12 plus post] giving all details and case numbers. I must be forgiven now for beginning to think that his choice of word for a 51 clutch of "basket" was a "case" of being appropriate. I responded with a brief handwritten note of my thoughts along with giving the man his money back. I did write a fuller response [complaint 2] Mr Roushias,

I enclose a cheque for £16.50. I do this not because I accept your views but because it is in my mind that your communications are close to the point of harassment, and I would rather increase the chance of this being less of a possibility in future than find it necessary to take more formal steps. I remind you, by attaching a copy of my internet notes to you that I remain standing on these and I believe I have acted fairly with you and your approach has been, in contrast, unpleasant.
It also comes to me that the toings and froings of this matter form an interesting base for an article in the Writing Equipment Society quarterly periodical. I know that it would give other experienced repairers a knowing reaction, as well give collectors some insight into the potential interface difficulties between repairer and client when working with items that have been around for some time. Naturally I would ask here for your agreement to proceed with this although I believe there is not formal need to do so as it would not attribute any sources to any particular person.

Eur.Ing. Peter Crook 23/7/2013but decided that this would just fan the flames !. At the time I foolishly thought this might be the end of this hassle, but clearly no. This man is trying, through your forum, to do serious damage to what I do.

This matter has now reached the point where you have my full consent to place my reaction, as described here, along with its attachments, on your forum. I would also believe, in the circumstances, that it would be proper for the "article" on Google under Carneil Pens to be removed. You should also know that I am seriously considering a meeting with my lawyer about Mr Roussias. Not your forum as I believe your intentions are honourable, but I do feel it proper that you help sort this out.

As to my skills as a repairer. The photo of the slip caps, turned on a lathe in black hard rubber, should give a hint.
4939
Another couple of examples of tricky repairs are shown on my website. Have a look at 9377peterc on ebay. - 800 plus and 100% positive. I receive a constant flow of letters of thanks with cheques, and would easily be able to get others to vouch for my work.

I apologise for going on at some length here but you will recognise that this is important to me. Please feel free to telephone me on xxxxxxxxxxx should wish to talk over this matter with me,

Eur.Ing.Peter Crook