Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

[Detman101]

*snip*


"Standardization is not the standard...accept it and prepare for the work"



If you made it this far, I'm sorry.
I just have no one that will listen and even less people that could understand...

Sorry.

[AzJon]

It it just modern day greed and selfishness that makes pen manufacturers make parts that don't work in other pens?

That was really, really common with older pen makers. There was no standardization and pretty much each maker had proprietary parts, so not sure what you're on about there.


How is it that pens from the early 1900s were made so wonderfully

Because we were upgrading from dip nibs. Everyone used fountain pens because they were the cutting edge of technology in writing.


#5 is common and used by Fountain Pen Revolution across a number of their pens. Including finding ebonite feeds to fit said #5.

Were you unaware of what the hardware would be on your pen that you custom ordered? That would seem like an oversight on their or your part.

[Detman101]

That was really, really common with older pen makers. There was no standardization and pretty much each maker had proprietary parts, so not sure what you're on about there.


How is it that pens from the early 1900s were made so wonderfully

Because we were upgrading from dip nibs. Everyone used fountain pens because they were the cutting edge of technology in writing.


#5 is common and used by Fountain Pen Revolution across a number of their pens. Including finding ebonite feeds to fit said #5.

Were you unaware of what the hardware would be on your pen that you custom ordered? That would seem like an oversight on their or your part.

It was DEFINITELY an oversight on my part as I was new and uninitiated to Fountain Pens.
I had an idea of what I wanted...but didn't know how to get there. I saw a design I liked, and commissioned a build without any specifications due to my absolute ignorance.
I take full blame...mea culpa.
However, it would be less soul-rendingly regretful if I could blame someone else.
This was my mistake...I did this.
:cry::puke:

Thank you for listening AzJon. I appreciate it.

[Ron Z]

I prefer vintage pens, but I also find that there are a lot of very well made modern pens. Maybe you just haven't found them yet.

I find that the pens from around 1900 aren't all that wonderful. The dominant material was hard rubber, which was brittle and broke if dropped. Remember Parker's demonstration of the "unbreakable" Duofolds - dropping them from airplanes? There's a reason why there are fewer pens from the early part of the 20th century VS 1920 on.

Vintage feeds are often really bad too. Some have just a wide slit to carry the ink, some have air channels that are cut too deep so the pen floods, or no collector fins. Oxidation can build up on a decades old mint hard rubber feed, and then the pen doesn't write until you clean it in a good surfactant. The modern feeds have far better ink flow regulation than many of the vintage feeds did, though some brands (looking at you Schmidt) are notorious for being balky.

Standardized? Ever try to swap feeds between vintage Waterman, Parker and Sheaffer pens, let alone the off brands? Nibs, maybe. Clips, or caps? Not likely! Levers? Ha! Waterman levers were unique, as were Sheaffers. Parker didn't use them except for the Parkette. Its called avoiding patent suits. Sacs! Yeh, sacs were standard, unless you bought a Vacumatic, or a plunger filler, or piston filler. They're standardized only when the same manufacturer makes the part and then sells them to multiple manufacturers. Even then, there are tweaks to the design.

The big difference between vintage and modern was that the vintage pens were made in such a way that they could be repaired. Today, you often simply replace the part. It's a way to lower production costs. But vintage pen makers did that too.

[Detman101]

Oh! I didn't know that Ron Z!! Thank you!!
I really don't know much at all, I'm very new to this...literally only 3-4 months experienced in fountain pens.
I guess I don't know enough to really try doing all of the things I'm doing.
Have to walk before I run I guess...
I don't even understand how ebonite feeds work, much less why they work.
I just wanted to swap one in because it says everywhere that the ink flow is better for flex writing.
I know what the ink channel does, because that's what I widened/deepened on my plastic feed to get more ink flow...it worked wonderfully on the metal flex pen, but the reservoir/converter is way too small for extended writing.
Literally, if I flex write for half a page...half the ink reservoir/converter is depleted...lol.

I'm hoping I can get at least the same effect with the PENBBS-456 feed when it arrives.
That should have enough ink available to write a few pages in Flex without having to refill.
I just have to be sure to treat it carefully as it's plastic...If I'm going in the woods, I'll take the metal pen.

[Detman101]

Concerning getting the PENBBS-456 modified to get the end results I desire....I just did the math based on the posted wait time of nib-meisters and pen repair-people that I've seen on the internet.

PENBBS-456 order wait time from china: 3 months
Nib-Meister/Repairman Installation of Flex-pen parts into PENBBS-456: 3-4 months (based on posted wait queues)

Thats a total of 6 MONTHS!!
Half a frickin year JUST to get a flex pen the way I need.

Maybe buying the FPR flex pen built already is the way I need to go...
Has anyone had good experience with the FPR pens?
If the wait is not long I'd be fine with just buying one of those but everything I've seen says they have production issues.
I'm leery of buying one from there only to have to return it.
Do they test the pens out before they ship them?

[Chuck Naill]

I am so sorry for your experiences. I cannot tell, even though I read you OP again, what you want to do with a FP. Perhaps calligraphy??

Anyway, Esterbrook made many nib types and they are still available. They do screw in and out. You have the choice of learning to restore them yourself or purchase them restored. They are not expensive at all and one pen could serve as a hold for many nibs. http://snyderfamily.com/current/estienibs.htm
https://www.vintagepens.com/Esterbrook.shtml http://www.esterbrook.net/

If you choose to restore them yourself, the new parts are availble.

Another option is to consider dip pens. This is a wonderful experience and the ancient nbs are available. https://theesterbrookproject.com/INDEX.html

[manoeuver]

Detman, ask around here: there are decades of accumulated pen knowledge.

Give us an idea what you're looking for and we can point you in the right direction, or somebody probably already has a pen they could sell you.

vintage-style flex in a modern pen isn't real easy to come by, but you've got way more options now than you did 5 years ago.

Pierre Miller of Desiderata pens (https://www.desideratapens.com/) is hand-building pens designed around the G dip nib, subject to availability, some priced under $100.

Noodlers is another company to check out, their flex nibs are pretty stiff but hackable (look for "ease my flex," an invention of our very own Pterodactylus)

The most common #6 nib unit in use these days is the Jowo, so getting a pen that takes one of those is a strong start.

The FPR ultraflex nibs are based on the Ease My Flex mod, I've tried one once and it worked pretty well.

ok, good luck.

[Ron Z]

There's a great website about fountain pen design, and how feeds, inks and all that work. It gets technical, but I at least find it to be very interesting. Worth taking time to read if you pan on tinkering with pens, and even if you don't plan on tinkering with pens.

Fountain Pen Design. (https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/)

[tde44]

Concerning getting the PENBBS-456 modified to get the end results I desire....I just did the math based on the posted wait time of nib-meisters and pen repair-people that I've seen on the internet.

PENBBS-456 order wait time from china: 3 months
Nib-Meister/Repairman Installation of Flex-pen parts into PENBBS-456: 3-4 months (based on posted wait queues)

Thats a total of 6 MONTHS!!
Half a frickin year JUST to get a flex pen the way I need.

Maybe buying the FPR flex pen built already is the way I need to go...
Has anyone had good experience with the FPR pens?
If the wait is not long I'd be fine with just buying one of those but everything I've seen says they have production issues.
I'm leery of buying one from there only to have to return it.
Do they test the pens out before they ship them?

I have a couple of FPR pens - including a Himalaya v2 with UltraFlex nib. All of the FPR pens I bought have ebonite feeds.
Do you know what you want to use the flex nib for and what types o fink and paper you will be using? These can have major affects on your results.
FWIW - all of my FPR pens have their steel nibs which work fine for me. For fine/extra fine nibs I can write on just about any paper. For broad & flexing I have to use either TR or HP32 paper.
I bought my UltraFlex one for writing fun and using shimmering/sheening inks. I also have it setup as an eyedropper fill to get me more ink volume. The pen writes well this way but you need to be aware of problems you can run into with any brand of flex pen. I think theirs works fine but it can still cause you problems.
The nice thing is that their pens are not very expensive and you can have an ultraflex nib installed at the time you order it on one of their cheaper pens to try first.
I would suggest contacting them directly, they are pretty good about getting back to you and can probably recommend combinations of pen(s) and nib(s) that might work best.

[calamus]

I had bad luck with a leaky FPR pen, FWIW.

My favorite nibs have been on vintage pens. The flex nibs on early Watermans, Mabie Todds and Eversharps are legendary for a good reason.

[Detman101]

There's a great website about fountain pen design, and how feeds, inks and all that work. It gets technical, but I at least find it to be very interesting. Worth taking time to read if you pan on tinkering with pens, and even if you don't plan on tinkering with pens.

Fountain Pen Design. (https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/)

OMG thank you, this is JUST what I was looking for!!
This is the information I couldn't find anywhere or on youtube!
It has everything I was looking for on how the Feed works!!!!

You rock man, thank you!

[Detman101]

Concerning getting the PENBBS-456 modified to get the end results I desire....I just did the math based on the posted wait time of nib-meisters and pen repair-people that I've seen on the internet.

PENBBS-456 order wait time from china: 3 months
Nib-Meister/Repairman Installation of Flex-pen parts into PENBBS-456: 3-4 months (based on posted wait queues)

Thats a total of 6 MONTHS!!
Half a frickin year JUST to get a flex pen the way I need.

Maybe buying the FPR flex pen built already is the way I need to go...
Has anyone had good experience with the FPR pens?
If the wait is not long I'd be fine with just buying one of those but everything I've seen says they have production issues.
I'm leery of buying one from there only to have to return it.
Do they test the pens out before they ship them?

I have a couple of FPR pens - including a Himalaya v2 with UltraFlex nib. All of the FPR pens I bought have ebonite feeds.
Do you know what you want to use the flex nib for and what types o fink and paper you will be using? These can have major affects on your results.
FWIW - all of my FPR pens have their steel nibs which work fine for me. For fine/extra fine nibs I can write on just about any paper. For broad & flexing I have to use either TR or HP32 paper.
I bought my UltraFlex one for writing fun and using shimmering/sheening inks. I also have it setup as an eyedropper fill to get me more ink volume. The pen writes well this way but you need to be aware of problems you can run into with any brand of flex pen. I think theirs works fine but it can still cause you problems.
The nice thing is that their pens are not very expensive and you can have an ultraflex nib installed at the time you order it on one of their cheaper pens to try first.
I would suggest contacting them directly, they are pretty good about getting back to you and can probably recommend combinations of pen(s) and nib(s) that might work best.


Thank you! That is exactly what I was thinking too! And I did just that last night, I sent Kevin an email via the "Contact us" tab on the FPR webpage.
He replied back today and suggested I try out the Jaipur with an Ultra Flex Nib. It's a piston filler, has great ink capacity AND has the Flex ability I desire AND it's not too big or delicate.

So I'm giving it a shot...
I believe this will work for me!

When the PENBBS-456 arrives I'll put it and the parts to the side to be assembled at a later time.

[Detman101]

Detman, ask around here: there are decades of accumulated pen knowledge.

Give us an idea what you're looking for and we can point you in the right direction, or somebody probably already has a pen they could sell you.

vintage-style flex in a modern pen isn't real easy to come by, but you've got way more options now than you did 5 years ago.

Pierre Miller of Desiderata pens (https://www.desideratapens.com/) is hand-building pens designed around the G dip nib, subject to availability, some priced under $100.

Noodlers is another company to check out, their flex nibs are pretty stiff but hackable (look for "ease my flex," an invention of our very own Pterodactylus)

The most common #6 nib unit in use these days is the Jowo, so getting a pen that takes one of those is a strong start.

The FPR ultraflex nibs are based on the Ease My Flex mod, I've tried one once and it worked pretty well.

ok, good luck.

Thank you so much, I should have checked out the Classifieds/sales forum on here to see what everyone had available.
I just felt so frustrated after buying all these things to build a flex pen and nothing really meeting my needs. I mean, well my Brass pen kinda meets the requirement...but it's ink capacity is far too low for flex writing as it's using a C/C.
But other than that, it performs calligraphy PRECISELY how I desire. It just can't do it for very long.
I wrote my sister a long letter with it earlier yesterday and had to refill the converter with ink. I never expected two pages of writing to drain a fully filled converter...but it did. If I'd been writing without flexing I'm sure it would have been more than ample.

But that is why I need a large-ink-capacity pen separately from my precious brass pen in order to do flex writing and calligraphy.
That is why I ordered an ultra-flex Jaipur from FPR this morning.
:)

[Detman101]

I am so sorry for your experiences. I cannot tell, even though I read you OP again, what you want to do with a FP. Perhaps calligraphy??

Anyway, Esterbrook made many nib types and they are still available. They do screw in and out. You have the choice of learning to restore them yourself or purchase them restored. They are not expensive at all and one pen could serve as a hold for many nibs. http://snyderfamily.com/current/estienibs.htm
https://www.vintagepens.com/Esterbrook.shtml http://www.esterbrook.net/

If you choose to restore them yourself, the new parts are available.

Another option is to consider dip pens. This is a wonderful experience and the ancient nibs are available. https://theesterbrookproject.com/INDEX.html

Oh wow....I have never even heard of Esterbrook, I will definitely look them up and see what they have to offer. Hopefully their pen design is attractive too.
That was one of the reasons I don't like vintage pens...to me, they're just ugly.
The ones Iv'e seen have Hardly any metal in them or on them...and I looooove metal.

[Ron Z]

Esterbrooks are very well made and found about everywhere. The trim is stainless, so never rusts or brasses (plating wearing off). The 1000 and 2000 series nibs are OK, but not tipped with a hard material. It's not unusual to find them damaged, with the "tipping" material having fallen off. The 9000 series nibs OTOH, are very good and tough. Even with the expensive pens that I repair and/or own, I still have 4 of them loaded at the moment.

[Detman101]

I guess the only way this works...is to spend hundreds on a vintage flexible nib pen.

So I guess that's what I'll do.
There isn't anything that is made nowadays that works...and trying to make it work is like polishing the brass on the titanic.
Complete waste of time.
It'll never be the same as the old days...

Or maybe it's time for a holy grail pen...This one would do the trick!!

https://www.gouletpens.com/collections/visconti-opera-master-fountain-pens/products/visconti-opera-master-fountain-pen-polynesia-limited-edition?utm_campaign=Goulet%20Newsletter%20-%208%2F26%2F20%20%28TAyewd%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Communique%20-%20One%20Per%20Week&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJkYW1pZW4uYW5jcnVlbUBnbWFpbC 5jb20iLCAia2xfY29tcGFueV9pZCI6ICJNY0o3OHoifQ%3D%3D

[amk]

My best flexies are a Waterman red ripple and a Swan snakeskin pen, both very lovely flexers and nice pens as well, and both picked up cheaply in the wild. I resacked the Swan myself and that was all I needed to do.

But you may be better off finding a flex nib, then getting a pen to match, than the other way around. Normally I'd say ask one of the Indian pen makers to do a custom job (Ranga, ASA or Fosfor) but that may not be possible with the lockdown in India.

We do rather overrate vintage pens though, because the ones we see are the good ones. If you'd had to use a 1960s Platignum or one of the scratchy steel nibbed French pens from the 1930s or 1940s I see all the time, you'd have been cussing at them and you would have been right. I think the reason there aren't so many around is that people hated them enough to actually destroy them rather than just putting them in a drawer and forgetting them!

[Detman101]

Amk,

That is what was suggested to me by another member of this fine forum...to just get an FPR-Jaipur-V2 upgraded to the ultra-flex nib and be done with it.
I think that is the easiest path for me to take at this point. I'm VERY wary of getting into the whole "Hunt down a Vintage Flex-Pen" arena. I don't have the patience, money or stamina for a blind search of that magnitude.
I am a technical person. I'm not impressed with artistic finishes or amazing woods or metals used for making the pen. All of that is fluff to me. I'm impressed with mechanical abilities like the shutoff valve in the Penbbs-456 and 355...or the double reservoir with shutoff valve in the Visconti Opera Polynesia...
That stuff makes me drool. I could care less about a gold nib with scrollwork and inlaid silver and diamonds....bleh.
I want mechanical capability...more than anything.

Hahahahaha...that cracked me up!
Are some of the old pens THAT bad!?
I never hear anything about any bad finds on the web. Everyone always makes it seem like ANY old pen from the 20's-30's is a godsend and does everything needed. I know about the repairs needed to get them up and running but after that...they seem like a slice of heaven.

[Chuck Naill]

I remember my first Esterbrook restoration fondly. I watched a few videos and got the replacement parts from Anderson Pens. From there I've restored to working order a couple of dozen.

In the photos are pens from the 1950's, a Sheaffer Triumph conical nib type and the gold 51. All work and perform well. Very enjoyable for daily use.

Almost forgot the Conway Stewart #84 I bought from a good member here, Deb.

Then, there is always the wonderful opportunity of Autopoint pencils. THe large one is from 1927. I read someone say the only rare Auitopoint is the one that does not work...LOL!!

[Sphere]

Mr Detman, Reading your posts there seems to be a sense of frenzied desperation. It also appears that in your quest to find the perfect pen you are willing to submit to impulsiveness. By your own admission you have not done the research to educate yourself on the intricacies of what is available. This is understandable as your enthusiasm for fountain pens is just now beginning to blossom. However, fountain pens have been around a long time and have provided satisfaction to many people who are attracted to them for a myriad of reasons. Your perceived needs can be met. You will find the pen(s) that you desire. But, don't get too rigid in your demands, because, as you will see, what you want now will probably change as you get more knowledge about the pens themselves. This will affect the decisions you make about the pens you want. i would suggest that you slow down a little. Take some time to learn more. Practice with the pens you have, maybe take one apart, but take the time to understand what you have. I do think you need to learn more so you can spend your money wisely. Then, you can better understand the way to move forward. I am not scolding you, I am just being honest after more than 50 years of using a fountain pen. Your enthusiasm should be encouraged, not damped by disappointment.

[Detman101]

Mr Detman, Reading your posts there seems to be a sense of frenzied desperation. It also appears that in your quest to find the perfect pen you are willing to submit to impulsiveness. By your own admission you have not done the research to educate yourself on the intricacies of what is available. This is understandable as your enthusiasm for fountain pens is just now beginning to blossom. However, fountain pens have been around a long time and have provided satisfaction to many people who are attracted to them for a myriad of reasons. Your perceived needs can be met. You will find the pen(s) that you desire. But, don't get too rigid in your demands, because, as you will see, what you want now will probably change as you get more knowledge about the pens themselves. This will affect the decisions you make about the pens you want. i would suggest that you slow down a little. Take some time to learn more. Practice with the pens you have, maybe take one apart, but take the time to understand what you have. I do think you need to learn more so you can spend your money wisely. Then, you can better understand the way to move forward. I am not scolding you, I am just being honest after more than 50 years of using a fountain pen. Your enthusiasm should be encouraged, not damped by disappointment.

Quite understood sir, thank you.
I've modified my methods and requested to become an understudy to a nib-meister in order to develop my "wild ideas" into fountain pen innovation. We will see if that request is honored...either way, the testing will continue.

I know my postings, questions and requests for information have been borderline harassment to the placid and complacent community here, so I'm going to take my questions and creation to the real world. I apologize for stressing you all out.
If I ever want to gloss over high-priced acquisitions or brag about my accomplishments in the future, I know just where to go.

Everyone has to start somewhere, this just isn't the place for someone like me to do that.
And I'm not blaming you all completely, it's mostly me...I'm not widely compatible with the general population and as such, on came the blowback and tension experienced here.

Thanks and take care.

[catbert]

Sorry to lose you. Good luck with the journey.

[Chuck Naill]

I think you should stick around and use the forum to learn.

[Detman101]

I think you should stick around and use the forum to learn.I agree, there is a wealth of experience and knowledge here. I've interacted with some truly amazingly knowledgeable members here and the longstanding database of information contained here is stupendous.

I will stay and watch.
I will not share or express my ideas.


Sent from my LG-M210 using Tapatalk

[Chuck Naill]

I think you should stick around and use the forum to learn.I agree, there is a wealth of experience and knowledge here. I've interacted with some truly amazingly knowledgeable members here and the longstanding database of information contained here is stupendous.

I will stay and watch.
I will not share or express my ideas.


Sent from my LG-M210 using Tapatalk

I've gotten my hands slapped a few times, but more often I've been encouraged. I've also bought from Deb, a member here, who between her and Chrissy have much historical knowledge. Also, Ron Z lends an helping hand always.

More than a few times I have been able to repair or restore a pen or pencil from the information gleaned here.

As one member says, "pull up a stump and sit a spell".

[catbert]

I think you should stick around and use the forum to learn.I agree, there is a wealth of experience and knowledge here. I've interacted with some truly amazingly knowledgeable members here and the longstanding database of information contained here is stupendous.

I will stay and watch.
I will not share or express my ideas.


Sent from my LG-M210 using Tapatalk

Glad to have you back. :)
And please do express your ideas.

[An old bloke]

I think you should stick around and use the forum to learn.I agree, there is a wealth of experience and knowledge here. I've interacted with some truly amazingly knowledgeable members here and the longstanding database of information contained here is stupendous.

I will stay and watch.
I will not share or express my ideas.


Sent from my LG-M210 using Tapatalk

Please, share your thoughts and ideas. Sharing thoughts and ideas allows all of us an opportunity to learn.

[Ray-VIgo]

Ron's response is exactly what I have found as well. At first, the pens are very rudimentary and have a variety of problems with feeding, blobbing, stopper mechanisms that need careful repair, etc. They can absolutely be good writers, but it's very difficult to put together a fully functional, good pen from that era. You have to wade through a lot of damaged stuff, stuff that doesn't work, etc before you have something good.

But over time, the pens improved in reliability, repair, etc. They continued to be daily writers for people, but they become easier to work on, more parts available, etc. I'd say some time in the second half of the 1910s, the basic design is nailed down. I tend to think of the Waterman lever filler PSF series, or the hard rubber lever Sheaffer flat tops, and the Parker button filler Jack Knife as workable daily writers if you're in a relatively tame, office environment. I've used pens like that on a daily basis and they write well. But that's not to say we're going back much before 1920. Ron is correct that the hard rubber can be brittle, so care is needed. But I still use some of mine on a regular basis, and they do just fine.

If you're looking for a classic, basic flexible writer, I'd look at something like a Waterman's No. 52.

[Ron Z]

If you're looking for a classic, basic flexible writer, I'd look at something like a Waterman's No. 52.

Agreed. There are an awful lot of No. 52s around, and black ones are fairly inexpensive, while meeting the original, classic definition of a flexible nib. With a little care, they're something that you can easily resac yourself.

[Chuck Naill]

I am just learning about Waterman 52.
"The numerous versions in which it appeared make the 52 an ideal pen on which to focus a collection. Also, because Waterman offered a broad selection of nibs, collectors who enjoy writing with their pens find the 52 a good user pen. Many 52s can be found with flexible or superflexible “wet noodle” nibs, and for this reason the 52 is almost a cult icon among flex-nib fans. All of these ways to enjoy the pen exist side by side, attracting ever-growing numbers of adherents, made possible by the great quantity of these pens that Waterman made."
http://www.richardspens.com/ref/profiles/52.htm

So, how would a potential buyer determine if the pen has a "wet noodle" nib prior to purchase?

[eachan]

Ask the seller to provide a writing sample. That seems to be the only way. The idea that one can tell a flexible nib by tine length or other aspects of appearance is mistaken.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Indeed, the Waterman 52. Relatively easy to find black versions at reasonable prices with okay nibs. Wet noodles, not so much without throwing large wads of moolah at them. Never tried one myself, but as a user of dip pens I have some experience of truly flexible pens, so it would be nice to compare someday.

Here's an observation about vintage flexible pens.

1. There is usually a lot of excitement/energy in talking about such things.
2. There is usually an attendant high level of excitement and anticipation in the pursuit of same.
3. There is normally a degree of triumphalism on acquiring such a beast.
4. There is considerably less post-acquisition talk or enthusiasm.


Strangely enough, in the world of modern flex pens, i.e. Noodler's Ahabs and the like, there is far more post-acquisition talk. Much of this is around getting the things to work, but also a lot of examples of what people have done with their pens.

I find the different approaches a touch puzzling, and have thought to put it down to youthful/inexperienced enthusiasm vs jaded older/experienced. No doubt this is an oversimplification, so take it for that. :)

[Detman101]

I would have to try a vintage flex pen to create any kind of interest in finding one. The thought of hunting down a vintage pen with the same fervor I had used to find my vintage fedora doesn't appeal to me.

I just don't feel like doing it...at all. Hunting eBay, auctions, thrift stores, estate sales, talking to people, stalking websites...that is soooooooo much work. And in the midst of a pandemic?? No thanks...

And as long as I don't have a live example to create any kind of addiction, I'm safe and complacent with my experience of modern day flex pens.

Sent from my LG-M210 using Tapatalk

[Chuck Naill]

For me, the hunt is major part of the enjoyment. And, it’s like wanting to have the experience

[Detman101]

Strangely enough, in the world of modern flex pens, i.e. Noodler's Ahabs and the like, there is far more post-acquisition talk. Much of this is around getting the things to work, but also a lot of examples of what people have done with their pens.

I find the different approaches a touch puzzling, and have thought to put it down to youthful/inexperienced enthusiasm vs jaded older/experienced. No doubt this is an oversimplification, so take it for that. :)


I picked up a Noodlers Ahab for $5 on Ebay (Long term customer discount) and got it today. I think that there is a basic set of things that HAVE to be done to get the Ahab up and running that most people forego or simply forget in their excitement to use the pen. I read up on all the posted things that people had done and also Mr Tardiffs wonderful instruction set and created my own word document with an outline of things to do to get a Noodlers Ahab up and running and FLEXING properly.
It works just as reliably as the field instructions I make for the system administrators and engineers at work.
I've put this pen through 3 different configurations this morning and every last one works as long as you follow the instructions.
The Noodlers Ahab is truly an engineers fountain pen...

[Chuck Naill]

Strangely enough, in the world of modern flex pens, i.e. Noodler's Ahabs and the like, there is far more post-acquisition talk. Much of this is around getting the things to work, but also a lot of examples of what people have done with their pens.

I find the different approaches a touch puzzling, and have thought to put it down to youthful/inexperienced enthusiasm vs jaded older/experienced. No doubt this is an oversimplification, so take it for that. :)


I picked up a Noodlers Ahab for $5 on Ebay (Long term customer discount) and got it today. I think that there is a basic set of things that HAVE to be done to get the Ahab up and running that most people forego or simply forget in their excitement to use the pen. I read up on all the posted things that people had done and also Mr Tardiffs wonderful instruction set and created my own word document with an outline of things to do to get a Noodlers Ahab up and running and FLEXING properly.
It works just as reliably as the field instructions I make for the system administrators and engineers at work.
I've put this pen through 3 different configurations this morning and every last one works as long as you follow the instructions.
The Noodlers Ahab is truly an engineers fountain pen...

What is your concept of an engineer's FP?

[Detman101]

Strangely enough, in the world of modern flex pens, i.e. Noodler's Ahabs and the like, there is far more post-acquisition talk. Much of this is around getting the things to work, but also a lot of examples of what people have done with their pens.

I find the different approaches a touch puzzling, and have thought to put it down to youthful/inexperienced enthusiasm vs jaded older/experienced. No doubt this is an oversimplification, so take it for that. :)


I picked up a Noodlers Ahab for $5 on Ebay (Long term customer discount) and got it today. I think that there is a basic set of things that HAVE to be done to get the Ahab up and running that most people forego or simply forget in their excitement to use the pen. I read up on all the posted things that people had done and also Mr Tardiffs wonderful instruction set and created my own word document with an outline of things to do to get a Noodlers Ahab up and running and FLEXING properly.
It works just as reliably as the field instructions I make for the system administrators and engineers at work.
I've put this pen through 3 different configurations this morning and every last one works as long as you follow the instructions.
The Noodlers Ahab is truly an engineers fountain pen...

What is your concept of an engineer's FP?

In my opinion...This pen.
It's tinkerable from tip to cap(Nib, feed), Tough as nails, has replaceable parts that are almost standardized and available CONUS, 3 options for ink-filling so that if one method doesn't work for a situation or parts aren't readily available...simply switch over.
As close to a universal design as I've seen (in my limited experience)

I'm sure someone will bring up some pen from the early 1900s that they believe fits the bill better that only rich people can afford...
But I have no experience with those vintage pens nor the desire to.
To me, the Noodlers Ahab is universal, affordable and easily serviceable.

[catbert]

... To me, the Noodlers Ahab is universal, affordable and easily serviceable.

I believe that was the original concept.

If you haven't seen it already, Nathan Tardif's video about the Ahab is worth a look.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXfdgnxoT4M

[Chuck Naill]

Strangely enough, in the world of modern flex pens, i.e. Noodler's Ahabs and the like, there is far more post-acquisition talk. Much of this is around getting the things to work, but also a lot of examples of what people have done with their pens.

I find the different approaches a touch puzzling, and have thought to put it down to youthful/inexperienced enthusiasm vs jaded older/experienced. No doubt this is an oversimplification, so take it for that. :)


I picked up a Noodlers Ahab for $5 on Ebay (Long term customer discount) and got it today. I think that there is a basic set of things that HAVE to be done to get the Ahab up and running that most people forego or simply forget in their excitement to use the pen. I read up on all the posted things that people had done and also Mr Tardiffs wonderful instruction set and created my own word document with an outline of things to do to get a Noodlers Ahab up and running and FLEXING properly.
It works just as reliably as the field instructions I make for the system administrators and engineers at work.
I've put this pen through 3 different configurations this morning and every last one works as long as you follow the instructions.
The Noodlers Ahab is truly an engineers fountain pen...

What is your concept of an engineer's FP?

In my opinion...This pen.
It's tinkerable from tip to cap(Nib, feed), Tough as nails, has replaceable parts that are almost standardized and available CONUS, 3 options for ink-filling so that if one method doesn't work for a situation or parts aren't readily available...simply switch over.
As close to a universal design as I've seen (in my limited experience)

I'm sure someone will bring up some pen from the early 1900s that they believe fits the bill better that only rich people can afford...
But I have no experience with those vintage pens nor the desire to.
To me, the Noodlers Ahab is universal, affordable and easily serviceable.

I think you might enjoy restoring Esterbrook FP's for the very reasons you listed above. Everything is replaceable and interchangable using a parts pen. New sacs, shellac, j bar, jewels, and such are available. They are inexpensive and work beautifully.

I feel the Lamy Al-Star also fits your discription since nibs are replaceable, cartridges and converters are options, and the metal material makes is durable. Cost is variable, but mine was less than $20.

[Chrissy]

I feel the Lamy Al-Star also fits your discription since nibs are replaceable, cartridges and converters are options, and the metal material makes is durable. Cost is variable, but mine was less than $20.
I also love my Lamy Al-Stars, but they aren't particularly well-known as flexible nibbed pens for flex writing. :)

[Detman101]

I feel the Lamy Al-Star also fits your discription since nibs are replaceable, cartridges and converters are options, and the metal material makes is durable. Cost is variable, but mine was less than $20.
I also love my Lamy Al-Stars, but they aren't particularly well-known as flexible nibbed pens for flex writing. :)Correct, they don't flex...and that is an absolute requirement for me.


Sent from my LG-M210 using Tapatalk

[Detman101]

... To me, the Noodlers Ahab is universal, affordable and easily serviceable.

I believe that was the original concept.

If you haven't seen it already, Nathan Tardif's video about the Ahab is worth a look.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXfdgnxoT4MYes indeed! That video is where I found out about the Ahab. Amazing man with amazing ideas...

Sent from my LG-M210 using Tapatalk

[Chuck Naill]

I feel the Lamy Al-Star also fits your discription since nibs are replaceable, cartridges and converters are options, and the metal material makes is durable. Cost is variable, but mine was less than $20.
I also love my Lamy Al-Stars, but they aren't particularly well-known as flexible nibbed pens for flex writing. :)


True, I was sidetracked into the OP's comments about engineering. Sorry for not paying attention.:)

[catbert]

I feel the Lamy Al-Star also fits your discription since nibs are replaceable, cartridges and converters are options, and the metal material makes is durable. Cost is variable, but mine was less than $20.
I also love my Lamy Al-Stars, but they aren't particularly well-known as flexible nibbed pens for flex writing. :)


True, I was sidetracked into the OP's comments about engineering. Sorry for not paying attention.:)

Seems like a Safari or Al-Star can be modified to increase flex if you start with a gold nib.
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/273668-where-to-grind-on-a-lamy-nib-to-increase-flexibility/

[Chrissy]

I feel the Lamy Al-Star also fits your discription since nibs are replaceable, cartridges and converters are options, and the metal material makes is durable. Cost is variable, but mine was less than $20.
I also love my Lamy Al-Stars, but they aren't particularly well-known as flexible nibbed pens for flex writing. :)


True, I was sidetracked into the OP's comments about engineering. Sorry for not paying attention.:)
No apology required at all. You were only making a recommendation. :)

[Chuck Naill]

I found this information on "flex"
http://azfp.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=1

[Detman101]

I think I'm starting to understand why people have multiple pens now.
I also think I understand why people buy expensive high quality pens.
I think I'm going to get on board with that movement...

[An old bloke]

Mate, wait until you experience how different paper textures can be and how that influences matters. Then too, there is the influence of humidity on ink flow and paper 'tooth'.

All this truly makes fountain pens and ink so much more interesting while teaching us a degree of patience and tolerance.

[Detman101]

Mate, wait until you experience how different paper textures can be and how that influences matters. Then too, there is the influence of humidity on ink flow and paper 'tooth'.

All this truly makes fountain pens and ink so much more interesting while teaching us a degree of patience and tolerance.

Oh my gosh....you're kidding me...please say you're kidding.
I had no idea there were sooooo many things that affected these things when I started...lol.
This is truly a balancing act.
It has made me more patient though.
I resolved an issue tonight with my Ahab that pretty much came down to a cursed nib from FPR.
After patiently assessing the issue and then ditching that cursed nib, I grinded the stock nib down to the flex level I needed and a finer tip as well.
Now all is well and I can change inks without the pen locking up...lol.

These pens... =p

[An old bloke]

Many years ago, when drafters and engineers still used drafting machines and boards (before CADD became mainstream) those of us who did that sort of thing knew that ink would flow more freely on certain days and paper would take a pencil line more readily because of the humidity. I wish I was kidding, but no I'm not.

It's all part of the fun. Enjoy! (no sarcasm intended.)

[Detman101]

Many years ago, when drafters and engineers still used drafting machines and boards (before CADD became mainstream) those of us who did that sort of thing knew that ink would flow more freely on certain days and paper would take a pencil line more readily because of the humidity. I wish I was kidding, but no I'm not.

It's all part of the fun. Enjoy! (no sarcasm intended.)

Wooow....Thats wild.
So not only does my body feel the weather these days....my pen will too.
HAH! We will be in pain together!!
Ahahahahaha...this is too ironic.

[Chuck Naill]

I think I'm starting to understand why people have multiple pens now.
I also think I understand why people buy expensive high quality pens.
I think I'm going to get on board with that movement...

There might be a relationship with price and quality, however, I remain skeptical or at least I question the concept because when FP's were the norm, there were many good pens for which many could afford that were used by professionals and non-professionals to accomplish a task.

After reading up on the Bauhaus philosophy, I came to appreciate function is more important than form, but one need not sacrifice one for the other with some designs. Gold has function beyond it's form for example. I think I have four pens with gold nibs.

Charles Shultz used a dip pen to draw his cartoons. These were steel and made by Esterbrook. He used another brand for certain tasks as well.

I've just solved a need/want by getting into the Parker Jotter pen after discovering gel ink is a refil option. I had wanted a nice looking carry pen that used something similar to my all time favorite Pilot Precise V5.

I mean, at the end of the day, it is how we use a pen on a daily basis that, I would think, drives our acquisitions and interests.

[Ron Z]

One of the pen magazines had an article years ago about David Macaulay, who evidently does his drawings with a Lamy Safari.

[Chuck Naill]

Not surprised, but thank you for posting.

[Detman101]

I think I'm starting to understand why people have multiple pens now.
I also think I understand why people buy expensive high quality pens.
I think I'm going to get on board with that movement...

There might be a relationship with price and quality, however, I remain skeptical or at least I question the concept because when FP's were the norm, there were many good pens for which many could afford that were used by professionals and non-professionals to accomplish a task.

After reading up on the Bauhaus philosophy, I came to appreciate function is more important than form, but one need not sacrifice one for the other with some designs. Gold has function beyond it's form for example. I think I have four pens with gold nibs.

Charles Shultz used a dip pen to draw his cartoons. These were steel and made by Esterbrook. He used another brand for certain tasks as well.

I've just solved a need/want by getting into the Parker Jotter pen after discovering gel ink is a refil option. I had wanted a nice looking carry pen that used something similar to my all time favorite Pilot Precise V5.

I mean, at the end of the day, it is how we use a pen on a daily basis that, I would think, drives our acquisitions and interests.

I think you're right there Chuck, I quickly forget that these pens were the standard back in the day. Some to the point that they were disposable (from what I've read).
Not familiar with the Bauhaus philosophy but I'm taking that as bait! Will read up on that today, thank you! =]
Though I think I feel the same, in my heart. I love the way that technical items function moreso than they look. After all, what good is a pretty item that has no capability or usefulness?

I wish it were possible to find "Gel Ink" refills in bottle-form like we have with our fountain pen ink...

[An old bloke]

I think I'm starting to understand why people have multiple pens now.
I also think I understand why people buy expensive high quality pens.
I think I'm going to get on board with that movement...

There might be a relationship with price and quality, however, I remain skeptical or at least I question the concept because when FP's were the norm, there were many good pens for which many could afford that were used by professionals and non-professionals to accomplish a task.

After reading up on the Bauhaus philosophy, I came to appreciate function is more important than form, but one need not sacrifice one for the other with some designs. Gold has function beyond it's form for example. I think I have four pens with gold nibs.

Charles Shultz used a dip pen to draw his cartoons. These were steel and made by Esterbrook. He used another brand for certain tasks as well.

I've just solved a need/want by getting into the Parker Jotter pen after discovering gel ink is a refil option. I had wanted a nice looking carry pen that used something similar to my all time favorite Pilot Precise V5.

I mean, at the end of the day, it is how we use a pen on a daily basis that, I would think, drives our acquisitions and interests.

I think you're right there Chuck, I quickly forget that these pens were the standard back in the day. Some to the point that they were disposable (from what I've read).
Not familiar with the Bauhaus philosophy but I'm taking that as bait! Will read up on that today, thank you! =]
Though I think I feel the same, in my heart. I love the way that technical items function moreso than they look. After all, what good is a pretty item that has no capability or usefulness?

I wish it were possible to find "Gel Ink" refills in bottle-form like we have with our fountain pen ink...
Chuck's comments above make great sense.

I will add that there is one other component that needs to be considered. That is the aesthetic appeal of form, shape, colour, brand, etc. that influences one's purchasing decisions including how much one is willing to pay for a pen. Hence, there is a market for Yard-o-lead sterling silver fountain pens, while at the same time, Chuck is also correct when he states that function usually trumps form, but not always.

As someone who grew up and went to school in the 1950s and early 1960s using fountain pens along the way I will say that my 'two bob' Platignum school pen gave me as good service (some would hold, solely by the grace of God) as my late wife's far more expensive Parker did for her during those same years.

[Jon Szanto]

Simply comparing price yields little valuable information: there are good expensive pens, bad expensive pens, good cheap pens, and bad cheap pens.

When you do your homework, know the terrain, and (after time) have a few financial bruises as part of the learning curve, you find that when you buy the right pen that costs a bit more, you get a return on your investment that shows value over a very long time... perhaps a lifetime. In this instance, the terms investment and value relate specifically to the owner's experience, not anything as mundane as resale, and that experience includes elements beyond mere function.

The only truism I can come up with is that a good cheap pen is rarely as good an investment as a good "more expensive" pen.

[Detman101]

Simply comparing price yields little valuable information: there are good expensive pens, bad expensive pens, good cheap pens, and bad cheap pens.

When you do your homework, know the terrain, and (after time) have a few financial bruises as part of the learning curve, you find that when you buy the right pen that costs a bit more, you get a return on your investment that shows value over a very long time... perhaps a lifetime. In this instance, the terms investment and value relate specifically to the owner's experience, not anything as mundane as resale, and that experience includes elements beyond mere function.

The only truism I can come up with is that a good cheap pen is rarely as good an investment as a good "more expensive" pen.

I can agree with that truism.
If I could find the qualities I love in expensive pens that are found in a few of my favorite cheap pens...I'd definitely buy an expensive one.
Eventually I hope to come across that pen...but so far, nothings been found.

[Chuck Naill]

Don't rush to agree since the owner of the truism perhaps is attempting to justify his expensive deciisions. Make him prove his point.

For example is the Lamy 2000 a better pen that the Safari and why. Some might say it looks better. While that's all well and good, looking better does not render a better writtng tool.

[Jon Szanto]

Don't rush to agree since the owner of the truism perhaps is attempting to justify his expensive deciisions. Make him prove his point.

For example is the Lamy 2000 a better pen that the Safari and why. Some might say it looks better. While that's all well and good, looking better does not render a better writtng tool.

These are weak assertions. A person may choose to focus on function uber alles if one wants to, and I'll be of good social grace and not make fun of that stance. But anyone who judges an object on one element and one element only has already lost the game. It's as if "hey, it has 4 wheels, and an engine and a steering wheel, why would you want anything that looks nice or that you enjoy driving around in? Isn't the point just to get in, get there and nothing else?"

These are absurd arguments. A fountain pen, like so many other objects in our lives, can occupy many places in our interest.

Lastly, as to the Lamy example: you ask which is a better pen, and you suggest the 2K looks better. If one assumes that the pen writes at least as well as the Safari, then you've just lost the argument: they both function well as writing instruments, and one looks better. And holds more ink. And doesn't have a kindergarten tripod grip. Etc. Etc.

Which is why I made no specific examples - they are too easy to make. There is nothing at all to justify. Nothing.

[An old bloke]

Don't rush to agree since the owner of the truism perhaps is attempting to justify his expensive deciisions. Make him prove his point.

For example is the Lamy 2000 a better pen that the Safari and why. Some might say it looks better. While that's all well and good, looking better does not render a better writtng tool.

These are weak assertions. A person may choose to focus on function uber alles if one wants to, and I'll be of good social grace and not make fun of that stance. But anyone who judges an object on one element and one element only has already lost the game. It's as if "hey, it has 4 wheels, and an engine and a steering wheel, why would you want anything that looks nice or that you enjoy driving around in? Isn't the point just to get in, get there and nothing else?"

These are absurd arguments. A fountain pen, like so many other objects in our lives, can occupy many places in our interest.

Lastly, as to the Lamy example: you ask which is a better pen, and you suggest the 2K looks better. If one assumes that the pen writes at least as well as the Safari, then you've just lost the argument: they both function well as writing instruments, and one looks better. And holds more ink. And doesn't have a kindergarten tripod grip. Etc. Etc.

Which is why I made no specific examples - they are too easy to make. There is nothing at all to justify. Nothing.

I don't think anyone was saying that the only thing of importance is that a pen writes. While the choice of 'justify' may not have been the best, I took, 'Don't rush to agree since the owner of the truism perhaps is attempting to justify his expensive decisions. Make him prove his point.', to mean was that one who says, 'It's expensive so it is better.', should be able to articulate why -- just as in your car purchasing analogy, one should be able to explain why one car is better than another.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

But anyone who judges an object on one element and one element only has already lost the game.

The statement is patently incorrect, and there are endless examples that one can find if one thinks even for moment about it.

Furthermore, in addition to the examples, out here in the real world a lot of people have to make decisions in just that way.

And consider how often we judge other people on one element and one element only. It's very common. :crazy_pilot:

[Empty_of_Clouds]

After reading up on the Bauhaus philosophy, I came to appreciate function is more important than form, but one need not sacrifice one for the other with some designs.


One of the interesting things about the Staatliches Bauhaus is how it failed to respect the aesthetic of the built environment or the local population.

I like Bauhaus architecture, but extra care is needed when deciding where to place it. In other words, in the real world large population centres, form requires greater emphasis.

[Jon Szanto]

I don't think anyone was saying that the only thing of importance is that a pen writes.

Mr. Naill has espoused that viewpoint repeatedly in a number of discussions. I have no issue with the viewpoint that a pen serves only one function, which is to write well, though I happen to believe that a pen can encompass more elements beyond mere function. Mr. Naill seems to not be ok with anyone having interest in pens beyond the base function. The pen world is wide; I've never quite understood why some people want everyone to engage in the exact same pen experience.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I don't think anyone was saying that the only thing of importance is that a pen writes.

Mr. Naill has espoused that viewpoint repeatedly in a number of discussions. I have no issue with the viewpoint that a pen serves only one function, which is to write well, though I happen to believe that a pen can encompass more elements beyond mere function. Mr. Naill seems to not be ok with anyone having interest in pens beyond the base function. The pen world is wide; I've never quite understood why some people want everyone to engage in the exact same pen experience.


Trying to reconcile the bolded part above with the quote below is challenging.



But anyone who judges an object on one element and one element only has already lost the game. - Jon Szanto

[Chuck Naill]

I was addressing Mr. Szanto's opinion.

"When you do your homework, know the terrain, and (after time) have a few financial bruises as part of the learning curve, you find that when you buy the right pen that costs a bit more, you get a return on your investment that shows value over a very long time... perhaps a lifetime. In this instance, the terms investment and value relate specifically to the owner's experience, not anything as mundane as resale, and that experience includes elements beyond mere function.

The only truism I can come up with is that a good cheap pen is rarely as good an investment as a good "more expensive" pen.

First, one does not need to be "bruised" to learn. And, if you are getting bruised by expensive pens, the argument fails.
Secondly a more expensive pen does not necessarily produce a better experience. For proof of this, consider the many threads here discussing leaking and cracking of expensive pens.

Lastly, I am indirectly replying to a person who is finding out what they like in a pen. Suggesting they spend more money in an attempt to get there is not good advice.

[Detman101]

Totally understand what you mean Chuck.
The pen in this thread, for example...
https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/32171-Manu-Propria-Pens-Yamimaki-e
It's expensive, it's pretty, but ultimately...it's useless beyond the ability to write and make pretentious people drool.
But if that's what gets you off...it's a great pen. Buy three.

For me...my index finger has the same ability with enough blood drawn...and a lot more usefulness outside of writing.
That pen doesn't show up on my radar, along with a world of other pens like it.
The Conid Bulkfiller, FWI - Golden Armor and Penbbs-355 make me drool, however...and neither are particularly expensive comparatively.
All three have technical abilities that make them stand out in the crowd and get noticed.
I'm that way with people and most things in life, however. Something that's just "pretty" doesn't rate high...it has to function above the standard...or it's bypassed.

[Chuck Naill]

The Al Star tip was referred to as a "kindergarden tip". Are ergonomic designs only for the young/inexperienced, or those who haven't finished their "homework"? I think not, but it was a cheap lick comment to disparage a well made, prolitarian writing instrument. BTW, OP, I have been reading the 14k gold Lamy nib has some flex.

[penwash]

First, one does not need to be "bruised" to learn. And, if you are getting bruised by expensive pens, the argument fails.
Secondly a more expensive pen does not necessarily produce a better experience. For proof of this, consider the many threads here discussing leaking and cracking of expensive pens.


I am of course not Jon, but I also read his statement that you discussed above.

The way I read and understand his statement, the term "bruised" here is not the way you're bruised severely as in when your head had a painful encounter with the door (or door frame for you tall people). What I take from that is when you are further along in the hobby, you sometimes buy a pen that you thought you'd like, but when you actually have it in your hand, you don't love it. *But* you did learn what you don't like (the bruise), so you can be more specific and avoid that in the next pen you're getting.

I feel that his statement was spot on, and it fits the approach that makes a journey out of this hobby. You learn as you go, the longer you go, they more you learn, and hopefully having a lot of fun along the way.

Also, we are all talking about preferences and views and perspectives. I have seen you, and some other people who started not long ago with this hobby, and there are some things gathered from what you and others posted, that I would have done completely differently.

However, I also respect yours and others' individual way of thinking, and I am aware that my journey in this hobby is different than yours.

All I'm asking from those of you who just got started, is this: When you encounter (online or not) another pen person, who has been in this hobby longer than you have, the first perspective that you should employ in reading their statement is not that they are tearing down your principles and force you to do irrational thing (like spending thousands on pens without knowing why), rather, they are relaying the good and bad from their experiences, in hope that you will benefit from knowing those.


Lastly, I am indirectly replying to a person who is finding out what they like in a pen. Suggesting they spend more money in an attempt to get there is not good advice.

I don't see Jon (or anyone here) suggesting to blindly spend more money. What I see here is the invitation to be patient. To give ourselves more time in this hobby before drawing dramatic conclusions or making dramatic statements.

Why? Because there are literally thousands of things that can be experienced in this seemingly simple hobby, so with patience and time, we may come to appreciate things in this hobby that we used to think ridiculous when we just got started.

[Chuck Naill]

Thank you Penwash for your comments. Perhaps my interpretation was incorrect.

[Jon Szanto]

First, one does not need to be "bruised" to learn. And, if you are getting bruised by expensive pens, the argument fails.

I didn't think it needed delineating, but just to be clear: we don't live 100 years ago, where there were pen shops and pen departments (in department stores, etc) readily available. If we were, we could walk into a place and try out a bunch of pens and find just the right one (write one?) to use, a pen that was perfectly suited. No, we live at a time where many of the pen choices have to be made with intuition, reading and watching reviews, asking for advice and then putting out money and hoping we have made a good choice. My bruises (a term I chose) have been mild, and part of the learning curve. If I hadn't bought the odd not-so-apt pen here and there, I wouldn't have been able to refine my focus. Much younger people, with fewer financial resources to draw on, might reasonably be more impacted by a bad choice, but fortunately there are ways to offload them.

The fact remains that there is no way to know if you like the pen unless you try it, and to do so often involves and informed but still experimental purchase. Many have worked out, a few haven't. I think that is a perfectly valid approach, and not a failure in the least.


Secondly a more expensive pen does not necessarily produce a better experience. For proof of this, consider the many threads here discussing leaking and cracking of expensive pens.

No, this is on it's face weak and wrong: go back to my initial post, which started out specifically stating that there were both good and bad expensive pens. And then spend time on reddit, where the bulk of the pens are in the budget category, and look at the issues they present.


Suggesting they spend more money in an attempt to get there is not good advice.

Well, that's one opinion

*****

BTW, the tripod grip comment might have been ill-advised, but on any level it is still a bit of a "training-wheels" affect. My main issue with the implementation is the fact that the nib is always in the same orientation to the grip, which allows for no variance in rotation for the writer, and can impact the writing experience. A good example of this done better is the Parker 75, which allows the nib to rotate to accommodate the rolling of the pen in the grip, while still retaining the comfort - if desired - of the tripod grip.

[Jon Szanto]

Will, you are the best. Thank you for not only receiving my posts in the manner with which I intended them, but for giving me some backup and explaining them in a better way. I try to be clear but I know I do fail in that regard at times. :hug:

[Chuck Naill]

Jon, I have no need to wrangle. We probably do disagree on some level, but we do agree, perhaps, that we enjoy the hobby. Peace!!:)

[Jon Szanto]

Jon, I have no need to wrangle. We probably do disagree on some level, but we do agree, perhaps, that we enjoy the hobby. Peace!!:)

Indeed, Chuck! I am sorry, in that my personal style of trying to write ends up having cues that come off in the wrong light or manner at times. I never intend to slight, so we are completely good in my book! Any pen that is a joy in the person's hand is a wonderful and good thing!

Be well.

[Ray-VIgo]

If you feel you have to handpick a pen and nib, then attending a pen show is the best way to go. Eventually COVID will recede and the pen shows will start up again. It's worth a visit, if nothing else for the experience and to try stuff. If you are comfortable buying online, I would approach an established pen shop or vintage dealer and to explain your needs. Most try to be helpful. If you're comfortable with a little more risk, then you end up on eBay or elsewhere, but you're right that it might not turn out to be what you expect if you're buying on eBay "in the wild". Local antique shops are also an option, but can be hit or miss, depending on whether the person running the shop knows much about pens. Different people tolerate different risks, so it depends on the kind of buyer you are. The Waterman 52 suggestion is just a place to start in terms of a type and model that is accessible and of the "old school" variety of construction and nibs.

[Detman101]

If you feel you have to handpick a pen and nib, then attending a pen show is the best way to go. Eventually COVID will recede and the pen shows will start up again. It's worth a visit, if nothing else for the experience and to try stuff. If you are comfortable buying online, I would approach an established pen shop or vintage dealer and to explain your needs. Most try to be helpful. If you're comfortable with a little more risk, then you end up on eBay or elsewhere, but you're right that it might not turn out to be what you expect if you're buying on eBay "in the wild". Local antique shops are also an option, but can be hit or miss, depending on whether the person running the shop knows much about pens. Different people tolerate different risks, so it depends on the kind of buyer you are. The Waterman 52 suggestion is just a place to start in terms of a type and model that is accessible and of the "old school" variety of construction and nibs.

I, honestly, don't have the stamina to find "The Vintage Pen" on ebay. I also have a wife...so spending ungodly amounts of money on something as innocuous as a pen is outlawed pretty much.
I'll casually keep an eye open for antique shops...and if life ever returns to normal, attend a pen show somewhere on the east coast.
Starting the search with the Waterman 52 and on...I've seen a few videos of that pen and they appear amazing!
I still can't believe that they had such amazing versions of celluloid back in the early 1900s!

[Chuck Naill]

If you feel you have to handpick a pen and nib, then attending a pen show is the best way to go. Eventually COVID will recede and the pen shows will start up again. It's worth a visit, if nothing else for the experience and to try stuff. If you are comfortable buying online, I would approach an established pen shop or vintage dealer and to explain your needs. Most try to be helpful. If you're comfortable with a little more risk, then you end up on eBay or elsewhere, but you're right that it might not turn out to be what you expect if you're buying on eBay "in the wild". Local antique shops are also an option, but can be hit or miss, depending on whether the person running the shop knows much about pens. Different people tolerate different risks, so it depends on the kind of buyer you are. The Waterman 52 suggestion is just a place to start in terms of a type and model that is accessible and of the "old school" variety of construction and nibs.

I, honestly, don't have the stamina to find "The Vintage Pen" on ebay. I also have a wife...so spending ungodly amounts of money on something as innocuous as a pen is outlawed pretty much.
I'll casually keep an eye open for antique shops...and if life ever returns to normal, attend a pen show somewhere on the east coast.
Starting the search with the Waterman 52 and on...I've seen a few videos of that pen and they appear amazing!
I still can't believe that they had such amazing versions of celluloid back in the early 1900s!

You'd be amazed at the bone scales of a Sheffield Wade and Butch circa 1845. I have several pre 1890 staights with rubber scales that work just fine. I have an 1890 Hamilton 940 rail road watch that keeps great time. Those were the days of craftspeople.

[azkid]

I think 1900s pens would be hard rubber.

But yeah. The craftsmanship on those early pens with the gold overlay or the ornate gold bands is wild. Or the intricate designs on full hunter American pocket watches, particularly the lady's models, which I window shop so I can enjoy the myriad case designs (I have a 6s Elgin from 1897 (https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/collection/editdetails/76004/case) with a rather nice case that still keeps decent time)

[FredRydr]

I, honestly, don't have the stamina to find "The Vintage Pen" on ebay. I also have a wife...so spending ungodly amounts of money on something as innocuous as a pen is outlawed pretty much....
In the past several months, Ray has posted on the FPGeeks classifieds very reasonably-priced late '30s Balances, as have I. Keep your eyes on the listings, though it is true that in 2020, modern pens seem to have filled the bulk of the ads there. Check out penwash's website for more nice writers from the '30s.

[Ron Z]

I think 1900s pens would be hard rubber.

The early pens were hard rubber. The first celluloid pens were introduced around 1926 by Sheaffer, with Parker close behind. It shook up the pen industry because the material was less brittle, and it came in colors. Waterman was rather slow in catching up by comparison. They had the ripple hard rubber pens, but it was a while before they moved to celluloid.

[Detman101]

I, honestly, don't have the stamina to find "The Vintage Pen" on ebay. I also have a wife...so spending ungodly amounts of money on something as innocuous as a pen is outlawed pretty much....
In the past several months, Ray has posted on the FPGeeks classifieds very reasonably-priced late '30s Balances, as have I. Keep your eyes on the listings, though it is true that in 2020, modern pens seem to have filled the bulk of the ads there. Check out penwash's website for more nice writers from the '30s.

I absolutely will, Thank you!!
I'm in the market for an ebonite vintage pen in October now that I have all my flex pens upgraded and good to go.
If I don't find one in october, I'll roll those funds into november and on and on...

[jem14f]

HaHa thats the great thing about Standards....There are so many to choose from :-)