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magnesium68
July 6th, 2013, 02:18 PM
Well i finally felt under the spell of the gold nib , but is it worth all the hype? 21 k nib, after dissembling weight 0.8 gram which is worth around 29$ !! I paid 330$ for the thing, that insane mark up! Does it flex? Yes !Not like a noodlers Ahab but it pretty near, is it scratchy ? Yes!I had to clean and work the nib to upgrade it , how about the converter? Small! you write 3 pages and you must make a refill otherwise you will start to skip. If you want i can post some pix of the pen but rest assure gold doesnt mean better ....

Like public enemy would say " dont believe the hype"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

dr.grace
July 7th, 2013, 04:05 PM
21K is actually not necessarily a good thing for nibs, because the metal is too soft. And I agree with your comments regarding Sailor's standard nibs (typically ground with a flat foot) and the puny converter. OTOH, Sailor's specialty Nagahara nibs are great. For standard nibs, I much prefer Pilots, and the Pilot converters hold more ink.

To console myself about the small Sailor converter capacity, I try to enjoy changing ink colors more frequently.

drgoretex
July 15th, 2013, 12:41 PM
They are very small converters indeed. I have a Pro-Gear, but it is REALO, so holds a much better volume. My 1911 full size Naginata Togi Emperor, on the other hand, is a standard converter filler. The volume of ink it holds will not even last a good day at work without running out. Refilling a cartridge work a bit better.

Like Dr.Grace noted, the 21K is not really to be used as a 'flex'. From what I have read, it will tend to crack more easily than say, 14K if flexed too much. May be better to think of it as a 'soft' nib.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

Ken

magnesium68
July 15th, 2013, 04:12 PM
If a 21 k nib cannot be considere as flex but just soft ,why should someone pay $$$ for something that a 20$ pen can out perform? Even the gold content doesnt even explain the price ?

AltecGreen
July 15th, 2013, 06:59 PM
I have a few random comments and observations.

1) The price of $330 for a Pro Gear 11-2036-420 is way over priced. The Japanese MSRP is ¥21,000 which is about $210 USD or $219 Canadian. The best price I could find on Rakuten for the same pen was $147 (shipping is around $15 via EMS to North America). So $330 is pretty high although consistent with the retail pricing I've seen the last time I was in Canada (Toronto).

2) Gold nibs command a premium. This is not new. The going retail rate for a generic JoWo or Bock gold nibs runs around $100. Remember that using the spot price for gold in making a comparison is a bit of a red herring. Spot price refers to 24k refined gold. Even though 21k is not pure gold, it takes effort into making the 21k out of 24k gold sponge (see Pilot's video) let alone the actual nib itself. Since Sailor makes their own nibs, I'm pretty sure they don't cost Sailor $100 but I can see $50. $50 out of the $147 is already a tad more than third the price and both Sailor and the retailer have to make a profit.

3) Gold content is not an indicator of flex or almost any other property. The Japanese have been making high content nibs since the 'karat' wars in the 70's. During that time, 23k was the highest gold content reached with 22k being offered by the Japanese big three. Danitrio sells pens with a 24k nib which has a nice soft feel. Remember that geometry plays an equally important role as gold content. Also, the properties of the alloying metals is important. It is possible to make, for example, an 18k alloy that is harder than tempered steel (http://actu.epfl.ch/news/epfl-creates-unscratchable-gold/).

4) I find an interesting transition in the thinking/perception regarding flex over the past few years on pen forums. If you go back a few years, say 2009 or even 2010, the consensus was that the Sailor nibs were stiff as nails. As far as I'm concerned, the Sailor nibs are amongst the stiffest nibs. Yet, the OP's comment about flex being comparable to a Noodler's Ahab doesn't surprise me. It's more of a comment on how stiff the so called Noodler's "flex" nibs are especially in comparison with true vintage flex nibs. The Sailor nibs have not changed, but the perception has. I think Mauricio of vintagepen.net pointed out quite astutely that a lot of new people to pens have a hard time understanding the distinction between line variation and flex. For some reason, a lot of people want flex pens (the reason why would constitute another topic) but stay away from vintage pens. So pens like the Noodler's come on the market to satisfy that demand that are not really flexible. Since many people adopted these pens, the general perception has changed.

5) Sailors have the worst converter designs and the smallest capacity. Few would disagree on this point. I don't think they care and the market does not seem to push them to change. This also has no bearing on the price. The same converter is used in a $15 Sailor as well as a $1k+ Sailor KOP. If it bothers you, then just refill a cartridge as suggested earlier. Ink capacity is not a high priority among the Japanese manufacturers. If you want a Japanese pen with a large ink capacity, I would recommend a vintage Japanese pen with a Japanese ED filling system (or a modern Danitrio or Namiki Emperor).

6) The pen should write more than three pages. The problem could be in the converter. Try sticking a small ball bearing in the converter to break up surface tension. This often helps on converters. Platinum does this on all of their cartridges.

7) In closing, I think the OP has hit on the point of value. Writing performance is not necessarily tied to price. A $3 Platinum preppy gets the job done and can even be converted to an eyedropper. Why pay $20 for a Noodler's when you can just spend $3 and they perform the same. With that said, the pens I use on a daily basis would be construed as high end but they have certain qualities that meet my definition of value and performance. Everyone's definition of performance is different and you just need to figure out what that is.

AndyT
July 16th, 2013, 03:21 AM
If a 21 k nib cannot be considere as flex but just soft ,why should someone pay $$$ for something that a 20$ pen can out perform? Even the gold content doesnt even explain the price ?

Pride of ownership, quality of manufacture and a few other intangibles I suppose. Perception of value in the new pen market is something which often mystifies me; only rarely does it seem to have anything much to do with performance.



Writing performance is not necessarily tied to price. A $3 Platinum preppy gets the job done and can even be converted to an eyedropper. Why pay $20 for a Noodler's when you can just spend $3 and they perform the same.

Spot on in my opinion, though I'm a fan of the original Noodler's piston filler. That's because they're so easy to play about with and modify (and come in a pleasingly bizarre set of colours) rather than anything to do with the alleged flexibility of the nib. It seems to me that flexibility as I understand it is simply unavailable in any new, off-the-shelf product.