Tai ji quan and/or qigong

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Just curious if anyone here is a practitioner of either Taiji quan or Qigong (or both), and would like a thread to discuss ideas, thoughts, practices, experiences and so on.

I am a long-term (around 25 years) practitioner of Yang style TJQ (including jian and dao sets), and also dabble a bit in the systems of Liuhe bafa and Xingyi quan.

As for Qigong, my usual practice is the Yijin jing (Muscle/Tendon Change Classic), but I am also familiar with and have practiced Ba Duan jin (the Eight Pieces of Brocade).

https://i.imgur.com/Xcy4ODWt.jpg

[Sailor Kenshin]

I can't call myself a 'practitioner.' Took one class (years ago), and a friend sent me a couple of DVDs. Both seemed to help with the chronic pain which suddenly got worse this month.

I should look for those DVDs.

PS: I have to thank you, EOC, for bringing this up...I need the help.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

To get the best benefit you should look for a local teacher who specialises in what is on the DVDs, or find a teacher and buy DVDs about their stuff for home reference. The subject matter can be a little confusing, and a good teacher can help you to avoid many of the issues that slow progress.

Do you mind if I ask what areas the DVDs covered?


Also, as a disclaimer, if you have a medical condition then please seek medical advice before taking up any new activity.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Thanks. Just chronic pain, probably fibronostalgia.

These DVDs, I suspect, are not really meant for the serious practitioner....but the movements do help me loosen up, which is good.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Sorry, I meant what kind of movements are on the DVD? As far as I am concerned there are only those who practice and those who don't. DVDs and books are useful reference materials and guides for all practitioners. :)

[Sailor Kenshin]

I'm first looking through them now....many had been transferred to 'the cloud.' I still have the actual DVD of 'Qigong for Beginners.' Some of the movements listed are Swimming Dragon, Dragon Pearl, Wuji Qigong.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Cool!

I wasn't familiar with Wuji Qigong but Youtube is a great way to see what it's all about. Interesting movements.

There are two main swimming dragon forms. One is very difficult to learn and quite vigorous on the body and needs a live teacher, the other is standing practice involving spine twisting. This second one is very good for back health (among other things) and easy to learn, but care and slow speed must be applied because of the twisting. Once you get a bit proficient at it there is a real feeling of unwinding relaxation with it.

[AzJon]

Ha. That has to be the DVD from Gary Garripoli. I have the same one.

Not a taiji or qigong practitioner in any formal sense. I do 8-brocade periodically and have practiced numerous forms and styles.

I ended up doing a 180 and getting heavily into kettlebell training (lots of yin and yang principles in there) and have been better for it, honestly. Maybe I'll go back to qigong when I'm older.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Please don't take this as a criticism.

Qigong isn't a set of practices for old people, it's really for lifelong practice for everyone, building a habit of stretching and strengthening. These practices give their greatest benefits when they are done every day. Skipping days/weeks or whatever does set a person back. This is well understood in Western exercise pedagogy where stopping training starts a relatively slow decline over the first week or so and a rapid diminishing beyond that. Obviously this is an undesirable process for everyone, but in older people it is much, much harder to regain skill and conditioning.

There are issues I see with people who are new to this. The critical first two steps are:

1. Learn the movements.
2. Learn to mindfully align breathing with the movements.

A lot of people stop at part 1. If coming from a sedentary life to this then there will be some initial gains, but nothing further unless part 2 is engaged. Beyond that and you get into intention and "energy" channels. Really though, most people would get a lot from extended engagement with parts 1 and 2.


Incidentally, I got a 16kg kettlebell about a year ago. It's a fun piece of kit that requires a great deal of respect.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I lifted weights years ago...ruined my joints going too, too heavy. 🥺

Now I stick with 2-5 lb. plastic dumbells.

[AzJon]

Please don't take this as a criticism.

Qigong isn't a set of practices for old people, it's really for lifelong practice for everyone, building a habit of stretching and strengthening. These practices give their greatest benefits when they are done every day. Skipping days/weeks or whatever does set a person back. This is well understood in Western exercise pedagogy where stopping training starts a relatively slow decline over the first week or so and a rapid diminishing beyond that. Obviously this is an undesirable process for everyone, but in older people it is much, much harder to regain skill and conditioning.

There are issues I see with people who are new to this. The critical first two steps are:

1. Learn the movements.
2. Learn to mindfully align breathing with the movements.

A lot of people stop at part 1. If coming from a sedentary life to this then there will be some initial gains, but nothing further unless part 2 is engaged. Beyond that and you get into intention and "energy" channels. Really though, most people would get a lot from extended engagement with parts 1 and 2.


Incidentally, I got a 16kg kettlebell about a year ago. It's a fun piece of kit that requires a great deal of respect.

I don't disagree. For context, I'm a licensed acupuncturist by trade and have extensive training in the energetic model.

An aspect that is often forgotten regarding qigong is that young people really aren't supposed to do practice it as it does not accord with nature. When young, yang is full and ascending, it is therefore appropriate to perform highly "yang" or energetic tasks. As time goes on, yang declines and yin grows. That is the time to practice qigong. Arguably the best qigong teachers started with a hard-style martial art first and gradually moved to qigong later in life.

Contextually, "later in life" via the ancient Chinese worldview would be somewhere in your mid to late 40s (48 for men, 42 for women).

Stretching and therapeutic movement are extremely important regardless your avenue of consumption. Most people don't think about it, but all exercise, including just regular old-fashioned weight lifting, has a lot to do with timing your movements with breath.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Indeed!

The only thing I don't accord with is separating out something like a hard-style MA from qigong. In my understanding they are all part of a spectrum of physical activities that embody the same basic principles, but with differing emphases. So, in general, I do agree that younger people should be engaging with more yang activity. If you look at Chen family TJQ you will note that, unlike popular perceptions of TJQ, it is very energetic and demanding of the body, and attracts younger people partly because of this aspect. There are also some quite vigorous qigong sets, the Yi Jin jing can be taxing, depending on the intention of the practitioner. You see this a lot in the practices at Shaolin, though I am not sure how well they align with the Huangdi Neijing (The Yellow Emperor’s Classic of Internal Medicine). What I do know is that they promote qigong for all ages.

Again though, perhaps this merely reflects that there are yang-centric qigong sets and yin-centric qigong sets? I don't know enough about the classics to offer a useful opinion, and in my own practices the desired outcome is contained by stillness of mind, condition of the body, and the relaxed preparedness and technique that allows me to move explosively and with sharp focus.

[AzJon]

Yeah, Chen style is very "yang" in nature.

I did Yang style for a while, but spent the most time practicing Cheng Man-ch'ing style taiji which maintains a fair amount of its martial roots.

When it comes to most forms, the emphasis is on therapeutic movement, which is useful for everyone. Classic texts do discuss how a calm mind leads to a long life, but don't really offer a a guide for how to get there. Largely because they are discussing the "elders" who did things like live long, healthy lives devoid of sickness. they lived in accord with nature and did all the right things at all the right times, which allowed them long lives.

I'm not saying qigong or taiji aren't good things, they certainly can be, but simply that they are not the only ways. In that regard, they are not alone in their health promoting, pain relieving effects.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I think we're kind of on the same page. Certainly I didn't start this thread to be a comparison of diverse health approaches, only really to talk with people who are engaged in TJQ/qigong or are thinking about giving it a go. There are times I get a little bit downhearted, mainly when people give it up without giving it a fair go. Not that I want to force anyone to do anything of course, but obviously I am enthusiastic about the benefits that can be gained from a bit a sustained engagement.