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naviathan
November 3rd, 2020, 06:05 PM
I'm new to restoring fountain pens, but I am thoroughly enjoying my experience so far. I have resac'ed and cleaned one Waterman pen from eBay. No clue on year or model, but it wrote beautifully when it was done. Fine 2A nib with a decent bit of flex. I miss that pen. Someone bought it off me quick. I now have a black-gold USA taperite that I'm tearing down. I've successfully removed the section and the lever from the body. There's still some sac left inside that I'm currently trying to get out. My big question is this: how do I remove the nib? It appears that the tapered end might not be as wide as the end of the feed...but I can't really tell. Does it come out through the tapered end like every other pen I've see or is there a trick to this one? I tried gently tapping it using a jewelers hammer, small punch and securing it in a jewelers vice...it looks like it moved some, but I'm afraid to push it and possibly crack the section. So I come to the experts! Help?

azkid
November 4th, 2020, 08:34 PM
It's all too easy to damage pens.

I'm not an expert. I've seen advice to apply heat, with a temp controlled device. If it is hard rubber, it makes the rubber less brittle and make it easier to remove the nib. If celluloid it can expand/losen/soften. But too much heat and/or for too long can destroy stuff very easily. And there's little tolerance on the temp.

Also I've seen many pros ecommend that if you don't *need* to remove a nib, don't.

I am uninformed about that particular pen.

I would scour the internet for repair advice from pros.

Or course with FPN down you're missing out on a lot.

Maybe check out some books on fountain pen repair too.

Jon Szanto
November 5th, 2020, 12:53 AM
Taperites have a *number* of issues and quirks. Frankly, they were the worst experience for me and while I like the pen and design, I stopped trying to restore them. For one thing, you are lucky to have gotten the section out, because many are GLUED in place, and even the shellaced or pressure-fit ones are so tight that you can snap the barrel in half without any pressure.

I can't find it because it was a few years back and I'm not certain where my notes are... but if you do some dedicated Google searches there were a couple of articles on restoration for this pen, and the odd way the nib and feed are placed in the section. For now, take a look at this page at Munson Pens (https://munsonpens.wordpress.com/tag/waterman-taperite/), where he goes over a few Taperite/Crusader restores. Also, you'll note a thread right here on FPG from a couple years ago with some of our horror stories (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/21115-Waterman-taperite-questions).

You really need your wits and patience with these and even then, the odds are... not wonderful. Good luck!

eachan
November 5th, 2020, 05:19 AM
Is there a reason that you must remove the nib? Restoring pens, I never remove the nib unless it's damaged and needs work or replacement, or when the section is absolutely clogged. I flush with a bulb and nine times out of ten that's enough.

As Jon says, you did well to remove the section from the barrel if this is the US variety of Taperite. They are pens that love to break. The UK sections aren't glued or quite so tight but they need handled with care too.

naviathan
November 5th, 2020, 06:16 AM
Well, it took some time and patience with a jewelers vice and hammer, but I was able to tap out the feed. The nib stuck in the section until the feed came out and I was able to peel it away. Lots of nasty ink in there that acted like a glue. The fitment is extremely tight and I'm going to explore some option to put the thing back together again.

56890

eachan
November 5th, 2020, 06:45 AM
There's a thing called a knock-out block that's rather better than a vice. I'm not sure I understand the reason for such total disassembly, even removing the lever box.

FredRydr
November 5th, 2020, 08:03 AM
...I'm not sure I understand the reason for such total disassembly, even removing the lever box.
In antique auto parlance, he wants to do what’s called “a frame-off restoration” whether or not it’s warranted.

Jon Szanto
November 5th, 2020, 12:23 PM
...I'm not sure I understand the reason for such total disassembly, even removing the lever box.
In antique auto parlance, he wants to do what’s called “a frame-off restoration” whether or not it’s warranted.

I get that, but with the delicacy of the lever boxes, not to mention the barrel itself, this is courting disaster just to get a "showroom new" look. Or at least it feels that way. Not my pen, tho, so... whatever!

naviathan
November 5th, 2020, 02:05 PM
There's a thing called a knock-out block that's rather better than a vice. I'm not sure I understand the reason for such total disassembly, even removing the lever box.

I wanted to clean all the bits and pieces out of the body since the previous sac had "melted" into everything inside the pen.

Ron Z
November 5th, 2020, 03:31 PM
There are safer ways to clean the gunk out of the pen though. Lighter fluid will soften melted sac, making it easier to get out of the barrel.

I would recommend that one not remove a lever box unless they are replacing it. The metal on the tabs becomes very brittle, and often breaks before you get it back in position. When replacing a lever box, I usually break the donor barrel rather than try to get the lever box out. Once the lever box is free you need to heat the tab (and you only lift the forward one) to where it is red, then bend the lever down. When you do that your chances of getting it back in place without it breaking are much better.

Farmboy
November 6th, 2020, 08:51 PM
I have no clue why you removed the lever assembly. I'd actually like to know.

How do you plan on putting it back in?

naviathan
November 7th, 2020, 08:51 AM
I watched a video on how to remove and insert the lever box so I will put it back the way it came out.

Jon Szanto
November 7th, 2020, 11:57 AM
I watched a video on how to remove and insert the lever box so I will put it back the way it came out.

One video will never, can never, illuminate the many ways this can go wrong. The ability to post a video of something requires far less skill. I think Ron's suggestions, as posted earlier, should be required reading. Along with Marshall and Oldfleld, and maybe Binder has some thoughts. Good luck!

Ron Z
November 7th, 2020, 12:06 PM
Sorry to say this, but there are some repair videos out there that make what's left of my hair stand on end.

If you can, heat where the tabs connect to cherry red and then let them air cool before you put the box back in. If you don't check back later and we can discuss how to repair lever boxes with broken tabs. Really. I've done enough of these over the years that I know that sometimes even WITH heating the metal fatigues and breads the first time they're bent, and it's more likely when you don't.

Farmboy
November 7th, 2020, 04:57 PM
I watched a video on how to remove and insert the lever box so I will put it back the way it came out.

But why remove the lever box?

penwash
November 7th, 2020, 06:36 PM
I watched a video on how to remove and insert the lever box so I will put it back the way it came out.

Since you posted about a restoration in a Repair section of a pen forum, I think it will benefit you well if you stop and consider some of the questions and suggestions already posted here.

Experienced vintage pen restorers like Eachan, Ron, and Todd (@Farmboy) who already chimed can be a good source of info that you can tap into, instead of dismissing their advice and relying on a video.

Unless that video also correctly warned that a perfectly good Waterman lever-box is not something you'd want to take out if you just want to clean out the dried sac remnants.

naviathan
November 8th, 2020, 09:09 AM
Ok, well thanks everyone for your input. I will surely not ask for more of it.

Farmboy
November 8th, 2020, 01:29 PM
Ok, well thanks everyone for your input. I will surely not ask for more of it.

I was genuinely interested in why the lever box was pulled and which method you used.

There are often disagreements between repair people so there isn’t a single answer to how to restore a pen. I hope you decide to come back.

Chrissy
November 17th, 2020, 09:50 PM
Ok, well thanks everyone for your input. I will surely not ask for more of it.

I was genuinely interested in why the lever box was pulled and which method you used.

There are often disagreements between repair people so there isn’t a single answer to how to restore a pen. I hope you decide to come back.
I for one would love to see the OP come back and show us his "after" photos when he's put all of the pen parts correctly back together by following the video. It might all go perfectly well and prove to be a simple repair job for him. :) On the other hand.....

amk
November 18th, 2020, 07:21 AM
Basically Ron you're annealing the lever box while it's out of the pen?

amk
November 18th, 2020, 07:26 AM
Hey, things get rough around here... but seriously, these 40s/50s Watermans can be right nasty little so and so's to repair and I think people are genuinely trying to save you some hassle.

I'm not a very experienced repairer but the one thing I would say is be very careful putting the pen back together. You've done really well so far and you don't want to ruin things now as it'll be a nice pen when done.
Warm the barrel up first before you put the section back in, and stay good and patient, don't insist if it doesn't want to go. I actually managed to nearly melt a pen barrel when I first started - thank goodness it was a third tier clunker! it still has a bit of a banana tendency so to speak - and since then, I've tried to exercise a whole lot more patience!

Ron Z
November 18th, 2020, 08:54 AM
Yes. It makes all the difference in the world when it comes to bending the tabs back in place. If you don't anneal the tab and bend it will likely break. I'm not a metallurgist, so don't ask me for the science behind why this happens, but I've read that metal forms crystals as it ages, and in this case it weakens the metal. Annealing changes the properties of the metal.
,
re. opening up a Waterman Taperite... This happened at one of the first pen shows that I went to early one, and illustrates the fragility of a the pens. I was handed a Waterman Taperite to repair, and checked with another repair person on how to safely open the pen. I did get the pen open without damage, and restored the pen. I handed the pen to the owner, who then turned to his friend who was sitting next to him and said, "You owe me a beer."

These pens are a royal pain, and I sometimes think that whether you can open a pen or not is as much a matter of luck as it is skill. You need a lot of both. Some of the Taperiate Citations can be brittle too, which adds to the joy.

Seattleite
November 19th, 2020, 09:36 AM
I got gun-shy after breaking some of these pens, early on, so the several that came my way, usually as part of a lot, just sat with their mummified sacs. I decided that I wanted a few working examples, so I paired up some with messed up or missing nibs with some where the barrel was broken. I removed the broken barrel bits from the good sections, and cut off the bad nibbed sections from good barrels. I then re-bored those barrels to remove the section remnants. Next, I turned down the section mating surfaces to allow more comfortable fits to their "New" barrels. I turned the section, as opposed to boring out the barrel, so as to not further weaken the barrel. Since there are certainly more good sections than good barrels (because of the failure rate of restoration, if anything), this approach seemed a reasonable sacrifice to make. We no longer throw young virgins into volcanos, so acts of sacrifice are not one of the typical go to solutions these days, but my offering to the Great Pen God was received, and a mass of hobbled Taperites were given new life.

As to why they are so stubborn, I have seen recessed pockets set at a roughly 45 degree angle placed around the section, (on some of these), where it fits to the barrel. On the pens where I broke off the barrel remnants, I could see where the barrel wall had shrunken down into these pockets. Some of the earlier injection molded plastics seem to lose both mass and plasticity as they age, such that 70 years later, some Bub trying to wiggle out a section is often rewarded with a little SNAP. Waterman, and later, frustrated owners, may have tried a bunch of things... solvent, glue, fitting tightly with heat, the little pockets... to keep the force against the clutch ring, when uncapping, from pulling the section off. Most clutch cap pens from that time with a ring that bears against the section, have a threaded joint. 51s and Fifth Avenues come to mind. The pens that I fixed will always have an uneasy relationship between uncapping, and pulling the section, so I kind of massaged the clutch fingers so that they would relax their grip, and used some thermosetting rosin/shellac mix as a section sealant. They seem to work pretty reliably now.

I guess that for extra fun with Taperites, I could scale the slopes and toss a lever box into the flaming beast, as I have certainly sacrificed some of those. Am I the only one who broke a tab when removing the box?

Bob

Ron Z
November 19th, 2020, 01:11 PM
Am I the only one who broke a tab when removing the box?

Heavens no! That's why I say that if you are going to move the lever box into another pen, if at all possible you should break the donor barrel to extract the lever box. Once its free, heat the forward tab before you bend it straight.

amk
November 20th, 2020, 04:02 AM
Come to think of it, if people do bust the barrels, why not make 'fantasy Taperites'? They could be plenty purty!

If anyone has some broken Taperites I'd be willing to have a go.

Chrissy
November 20th, 2020, 05:36 AM
Come to think of it, if people do bust the barrels, why not make 'fantasy Taperites'? They could be plenty purty!

If anyone has some broken Taperites I'd be willing to have a go.
I almost wish I had one. :) I've seen Sheaffer Legacy Fantasy barrels that I like very much too. :)

FredRydr
November 20th, 2020, 06:02 AM
Come to think of it, if people do bust the barrels, why not make 'fantasy Taperites'? They could be plenty purty!

If anyone has some broken Taperites I'd be willing to have a go.
I almost wish I had one. :) I've seen Sheaffer Legacy Fantasy barrels that I like very much too. :)
Contact Richard Greenwald (https://richardlgreenwald.com) for fantasy conversions. He will be at Bertram's Inkwell tomorrow (Saturday, Nov 21, 2020), I imagine subject to Covid restrictions. The following is one of his photos sent by Bert Oser in an email.

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pajaro
November 20th, 2020, 10:03 AM
I suppose a fantasy Taperite should be my backup plan for when I restore my Taperite and it breaks or burns up in the process. Well, it has been inop for a decade at least. So far I have burned up three old Watermans by overheating. I think they burn easily. On the bright side, it returned three nibs to use in other pens.