Making Nibs / Handmade Nibs

[Bielawski]

I'd like to attempt to make a 14k nib like a wet noodle, but would like to know if there are any resources about nib making. Are there any old books, websites, forums, craftsmen, that I might glean some info from?

[Pterodactylus]

I'd like to attempt to make a 14k nib like a wet noodle, but would like to know if there are any resources about nib making. Are there any old books, websites, forums, craftsmen, that I might glean some info from?

I’m not aware of any.

I’m curious, are you a Goldsmith (to have all the stuff for stamping, rolling, forging, heat treat and also having the metallurgic knowledge needed) ?
What kind of 14k alloy are you planning to use?
Do you already have specific gold sheet metal in mind or do you even create your own?
How do you cut the nib slit?
As far as I know very specific thin diamond wheels on special cutting saws are used.
How do you plan to tip your nib?

[Bielawski]

I'd like to attempt to make a 14k nib like a wet noodle, but would like to know if there are any resources about nib making. Are there any old books, websites, forums, craftsmen, that I might glean some info from?

I’m not aware of any.

I’m curious, are you a Goldsmith (to have all the stuff for stamping, rolling, forging, heat treat and also having the metallurgic knowledge needed) ?
What kind of 14k alloy are you planning to use?
Do you already have specific gold sheet metal in mind or do you even create your own?
How do you cut the nib slit?
As far as I know very specific thin diamond wheels on special cutting saws are used.
How do you plan to tip your nib?

I have only seen very basic videos on you tube or descriptions of manufacturing on google books.

I am a jeweler and have all the necessary tools for metalworking. I have a tiny bit of gold bullion and can create the gold alloy. I have seen that a special high speed circular blade is used to cut the nib, I could search for one, but jewelers saw blades are made as thin as .15mm which is probably plenty small and I could probably get away with that for a one off or two. If it fails, I could always remelt, it roll it and start again.
.
Tipping the nib is actually one of the questions I have. I have seen that the nib is spot welded in factories. I wonder if the nib HAS to be tipped as some older nibs might not be tippped. I suppose I could use another metal, My first hunch is to use platinum, but I dont have any and am still researching this part of the process.

Also, one of the things I am most interested in is the minute details of the craft - like where the nib has to be thinner for flex, where to make it a little more work hardened or thicker for springiness, are there any nuances like a making a slight pocket where the feed rests, etc? The shape of the pilot Falcon is interesting and Im sure has a lot of nuances that a nib making craftsman would know about that I have no knowledge of yet.

I think there must be some old books or literature out there....

[Pterodactylus]

Thanks for your detailed answer, this will be an interesting project.

Tipping is mandatory on gold nibs, the gold would wear down rapidly while writing.
The tipping material has to be very hard to withstand writing.
Usually an Iridium alloy is used for it.

There are some (only few) craftsman who does retipping of nibs, who might also can tip your nib once created.
So you do not get a setup for doing this yourself.

I already modified nibs to increase their flexibility (Named it EMF Ease My Flex).
Basically modifying the nib curvature (using a Drexel rotary tool) of the tines and the base of the nib to allow it to be more flexible.
More info at:
https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/26520-FPR-took-over-my-EMF-mod-and-sells-it-now-as-Ultra-Flex-Nibs

Do you own some good vintage flex nibs?
I think studying the geometry of those would be a good starting point.

Modern nibs are stamped/rolled instead of forged, this might be also an important thing to take into consideration to get a really flexible nib.

[An old bloke]

I imagine one could make nibs from almost any sheet metal using basic tools. In fact, the BBC programme about the history of writing shows the presenter, a calligrapher, making a nib from a coke can.

One suggestion is to see what the Pen Museum has that might help. LINK: https://penmuseum.org.uk/shop-gifts/

[Bielawski]

Thanks for your detailed answer, this will be an interesting project.

Tipping is mandatory on gold nibs, the gold would wear down rapidly while writing.
The tipping material has to be very hard to withstand writing.
Usually an Iridium alloy is used for it.

There are some (only few) craftsman who does retipping of nibs, who might also can tip your nib once created.
So you do not get a setup for doing this yourself.

I already modified nibs to increase their flexibility (Named it EMF Ease My Flex).
Basically modifying the nib curvature (using a Drexel rotary tool) of the tines and the base of the nib to allow it to be more flexible.
More info at:
https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/26520-FPR-took-over-my-EMF-mod-and-sells-it-now-as-Ultra-Flex-Nibs

Do you own some good vintage flex nibs?
I think studying the geometry of those would be a good starting point.

Modern nibs are stamped/rolled instead of forged, this might be also an important thing to take into consideration to get a really flexible nib.

The only gold vintage flex nib I have is a #4 Peter Pan, super tiny, it looks like an italic nib and as far as I can tell it doesn't have any tipping material. The other flex nibs I have are steel with iridium tips. I understand that the tipping material will lend to a longer lasting nib, is iridium necessary? After all, rollerball pens use steel, stainless, or tungsten and they seem to hold up fine.

Also, I have noticed contemporary flex pens like the FPR and conklin, they are made out of steel and the cutouts may improve flexibility, but no modern flex pen really matches that of something Ive seen from a 14k waterman and the waterman doesnt use any cutouts to achieve that flexibility. There is something remarkable about them that is missing from the contemporary pens of today. Is it a lost art? Are there any companies or crafstman today making gold nibs like that? If not is it because its not profitable? Goulet had a video saying just that, but waterman seemed to crank them out even back then without the benefit of modern machinery, with so many surviving examples and there are companies that already have 98% of the infrastructure to do it but just dont, even though they are as deep as any company will get into making pen nibs today.

Also you mentioned "Modern nibs are stamped/rolled instead of forged" --- what do you mean forged? as in casting? hammered?

[An old bloke]

Forging means heating metal to a high enough temperature that it is malleable, and then (usually) using a hammer, or pressing it on or in to a mold, to form it into the desired shape.

[Ole Juul]

Forging means heating metal to a high enough temperature that it is malleable, and then (usually) using a hammer, or pressing it on or in to a mold, to form it into the desired shape.

Hmm, I don't think that's the usual meaning as used in industry. I think normally forging is thought of as a process which shapes a work piece by applying compressive forces. There is both hot and cold forging. Forging works on the grain structure to make it stronger and tougher and it is distinctly different from casting.

[Bielawski]

Forging means heating metal to a high enough temperature that it is malleable, and then (usually) using a hammer, or pressing it on or in to a mold, to form it into the desired shape.

Hmm, I don't think that's the usual meaning as used in industry. I think normally forging is thought of as a process which shapes a work piece by applying compressive forces. There is both hot and cold forging. Forging works on the grain structure to make it stronger and tougher and it is distinctly different from casting.

OK FOUND SOMETHING! This excerpt was written in 1892

Go to page 84 - Turns out they do hammer it
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Manufacturer_and_Builder/3uoiAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=how+to+manufacture+a+fountain+pen+nib&pg=PA84&printsec=frontcover

here are some interesting tidbits:

"The blank is now placed on a small anvil, with the point projecting over the side, and beaten with a hammer from the point midway up the pen. This is done to solidify it and give that stiffness and spring to the metal that is so necessary to a good pen. This hammering, and the thickness to which it has been rolled, determine in a great measure the hard or easy writing qualities of the pen."

"Some writers like a hard, stiff nib; others a delicate, flexible one. The varying degrees of flexibility are obtained by grinding more or less of gold from the nib, between the nibs and iridium points, on the upper side of the pen."

Bonus Tidbit: "There is a popular notion that the best gold pens are pointed with diamonds. This is incorrect. THere were a few made in that way about twenty-five years ago, but they were very expensive, and the discovery of the valuable properties of iridium put an end to thier manufacture."

[An old bloke]

Forging means heating metal to a high enough temperature that it is malleable, and then (usually) using a hammer, or pressing it on or in to a mold, to form it into the desired shape.

Hmm, I don't think that's the usual meaning as used in industry. I think normally forging is thought of as a process which shapes a work piece by applying compressive forces. There is both hot and cold forging. Forging works on the grain structure to make it stronger and tougher and it is distinctly different from casting.
Yes, there are hot and cold forging processes. My understanding is that cold forging often requires greater force since cold, unheated metal is not as malleable.

I recall seeing steel, dip pen nibs formed using a press in the pen museum in Birmingham (UK). The blanks were unheated. The press used a long lever to increase the forming force.

[Pterodactylus]

The only gold vintage flex nib I have is a #4 Peter Pan, super tiny, it looks like an italic nib and as far as I can tell it doesn't have any tipping material. The other flex nibs I have are steel with iridium tips. I understand that the tipping material will lend to a longer lasting nib, is iridium necessary? After all, rollerball pens use steel, stainless, or tungsten and they seem to hold up fine.

Also, I have noticed contemporary flex pens like the FPR and conklin, they are made out of steel and the cutouts may improve flexibility, but no modern flex pen really matches that of something Ive seen from a 14k waterman and the waterman doesnt use any cutouts to achieve that flexibility. There is something remarkable about them that is missing from the contemporary pens of today. Is it a lost art? Are there any companies or crafstman today making gold nibs like that? If not is it because its not profitable? Goulet had a video saying just that, but waterman seemed to crank them out even back then without the benefit of modern machinery, with so many surviving examples and there are companies that already have 98% of the infrastructure to do it but just dont, even though they are as deep as any company will get into making pen nibs today.

Also you mentioned "Modern nibs are stamped/rolled instead of forged" --- what do you mean forged? as in casting? hammered?

I’m no expert regarding tipping and what can be used as tipping material and what not.
What is sold currently as “flex” nib out of the box is for sure not comparable with good vintage full flex nibs.

I think the reason why there are no real flexible nibs on the market is a combination of several factors.

Imho the most important one is that the vast majority of users can’t write with such pens anymore.
They never learned to write with a really light hand.
Give somebody from the street a really flexible dip nib, let them write and look what happens.
Most of the time the result will be catastrophic.

So what reason could a pen maker have to produce a true flexible nib if the vast majority of customers can not write with it, will complain about bad behavior or even will destroy it by pressing way too hard?

They are niche products these days, made for enthusiasts.

Yes there is some movement in the last years, triggered first by Noodlers introducing kind of semi-flex nibs.
And I like this movement.

Last highlight was the Montblanc Calligraphy nib last year.
I never wrote with this one but users were quite enthusiastic about it, not a full flex experience but at least a good semi-flex.

It’s really about the nib geometry, the metal alloy and it’s treatment what makes a nib flexible.
But it’s not limited to a special metal.
Even the vast majority of still existing flexible nibs are made of gold, there were also fantastic steel full flex nibs.
Personally I own a awesome vintage Degussa full flex steel nib, which can easily compete with gold ones.

I don’t think itˋs really a matter of lots art/knowledge, it’s more a matter of the market.

Keep us updated on your project :)

[NibsForScript]

Sounds like a fun project. You might want to look for an old kick press. You can make dies out of steel and the opposite die out of delrin. If you have done any raising it should be a snap. I think hammer forging may be necessary but you will have to be gentle and accurate. You can carve out delrin stakes too. As to tipping use a laser welder or if you do not have one there are people who do that to repair nibs. It should be a lot of fun. Getting the metal nice and springy will be your goal.

I do a line of anticlastic jewelry and sculpture. So much fun..... Nancylinkin.com

[jbb]

Tipping is mandatory on gold nibs, the gold would wear down rapidly while writing.
The tipping material has to be very hard to withstand writing....

The most flexible gold nibs I have are those from late 19th/early 20th century dip pens and they don't have tipping. I have the (un-researched & unscientific) impression that tipped-nibs aren't as flexible.
57863

[Pterodactylus]

Tipping is mandatory on gold nibs, the gold would wear down rapidly while writing.
The tipping material has to be very hard to withstand writing....

The most flexible gold nibs I have are those from late 19th/early 20th century dip pens and they don't have tipping. I have the (un-researched & unscientific) impression that tipped-nibs aren't as flexible.
57863

All my gold nib pens are tipped, also the more than 100 year old Watermans I have.

Why do you think that a little hard blob welded on the top to increase the durability and ensures consistency (to prevent a changing writing geometry due to abrasion (like with a pencil) has any influence on the flexibility?

Which pens do you have which are untipped?

Did you took a close look at the grind on the underside?
The tipping is often very tiny and only to see from the underside when you inspect the grind, not like the big blob on current pens.

[jbb]

...All my gold nib pens are tipped, also the more than 100 year old Watermans I have.
.....Did you took a close look at the grind on the underside?
The tipping is often very tiny and only to see from the underside when you inspect the grind, not like the big blob on current pens.

True, I have some older Watermans with amazing flex too. AND also true, the tipping on these older nibs is just much harder to see -- way less blobby than on modern nibs. Thank you for the correction. :)

[FredRydr]

The most flexible gold nibs I have are those from late 19th/early 20th century dip pens and they don't have tipping. I have the (un-researched & unscientific) impression that tipped-nibs aren't as flexible.
A-ha! Have you been using your dip "pens" (a/k/a nibs) installed in fountain pen sections & barrels?

[jbb]

The most flexible gold nibs I have are those from late 19th/early 20th century dip pens and they don't have tipping. I have the (un-researched & unscientific) impression that tipped-nibs aren't as flexible.
A-ha! Have you been using your dip "pens" (a/k/a nibs) installed in fountain pen sections & barrels?
Yes, I have quite a few fabulously flexy fountain pens that I've put 14K dip pen nibs into.... BUT the letters I write to YOU are with a dip pen because I love to use an iron gall ink home-mix loaded with gum Arabic and godknowswhatelse that leaves a raised texture on the paper that would clog any fountain pen.

[AzJon]

From my research, gold nibs on dip pens were not originally tipped with any material. To the extent that the large gold nibs you see on older dip pens served one purpose: being sharpened periodically. The gold will naturally dull over time, so you would take it to a jeweler and have them put a new point on the pen.

Here is an old manual that outlines the nib making process:https://archive.org/details/historyofinventi00fole

[mizgeorge]

That article was fascinating - not least because I use so many almost identical tools in my everyday work (I'm a goldsmith). Things haven't moved on as much as you might think - they just used to have to it faster!

[dneal]

Any updates?

I have a friend who is a bench jeweler. She buys scrap gold and had a dozen or so nibs. I brought up flex nibs, and how no one really makes them anymore, and that there might be a market for them. We spent an afternoon/evening playing with the idea. Here were the hurdles:

We used a Bock #6 as a template for shape and thickness, since ideally they would be swappable with a majority of modern pens. A die would be ideal, and cutting by hand is too tedious to be productive. We ended up going with a shape similar to Romillo, figuring it would be easier to taper the tines and get flex without the "wings" of the Bock shape.

Her mill is old and wasn't really up to the task of rolling a uniform sheet.

Slitting by hand is less than optimum. A dedicated rotary slitting saw would be better.

Getting the tipping material (we used a bit of scrap platinum) into a ball the correct size, flowing the gold around it and then trying to slit it is way too difficult without specialized equipment. There's an arc-welder type of contraption (I'll post a YouTube video if you want) that should make both tasks easier.

Flex is finding the right amount of work hardening. Lots of trial and error to get the right "recipe".

At the end of the experiment, we had a rough 14k nib that would flex. It had no tipping (we were focused on the flex first). It did fit in a #6 feed assembly and worked. It was just too much effort without the special tools to be feasible, particularly since her normal backlog is so great (sizing, retipping, etc...).

Good luck and keep us posted.

p.s.: The beginning of this Romillo video might be useful.

https://vimeo.com/103240566

[carlos.q]

You could also make nibs the really old fashioned way:

https://youtu.be/3xkOETcaVSk

[mizgeorge]

I have pretty much all the kit necessary (including slitting saws of the right size, presses etc, and still have little desire to try to make my own nibs, even though it's an interesting process. The tipping would be a problem - I don't have a welding setup (though I know a man who does...) but the actual material is pretty specialised as well, and would be of no use to me for anything else.

I'll stick to what I enjoy, which is being able to repair/modify them.

Kudos to those that make them from scratch.

[mizgeorge]

You could also make nibs the really old fashioned way:

https://youtu.be/3xkOETcaVSk

Crikey - I thought my slitting saw setup was terrifying until I saw that - and he carries on with the grinder on the other side with that thing just inches away from his bare arm. I'd have to book a season ticket at A&E!

[eachan]

You could also make nibs the really old fashioned way:

https://youtu.be/3xkOETcaVSk

Wonderful craftsmanship with the bare minimum of equipment.

[Cyril]

From my research, gold nibs on dip pens were not originally tipped with any material. To the extent that the large gold nibs you see on older dip pens served one purpose: being sharpened periodically. The gold will naturally dull over time, so you would take it to a jeweler and have them put a new point on the pen.

Here is an old manual that outlines the nib making process:https://archive.org/details/historyofinventi00fole

This is a nice reference and thank you for the link!!!

[Yazeh]

The difference between before and after is like night and day... Great job and an amazing sketch....

[dwnwrdishvnwrd]

You can make your own iridium tips. Melt your iridium in a shallow, circular, graphite crucible with a hand torch until it beads up like you were making a gold bead but super small. Think 2.5-3 mm diameter.

As a jeweler you should have no issues rolling your gold sheet to slightly thicker than your desired thickness and lapping it flat before using finer grits to achieve your desired thickness. Cut out your rough shape with your jeweler's saw and then use a small rotary stone to grind it to shape. Then use a super fine grit to perfect the shape. It'll have a shine but if you really wanna make it pop take a super hard wooden dowel about 2 cm long and around wine cork circumference and drill a 3 inch wood screw through it and use a drop of thin slow set CA on the head of the screw where it meets the wood. It'll wick in using capillary action and seal the screw in there for good. Snip the end and rough file the sharp edges if you feel like it. Make a few of these. They're easy to make and come in handy for smooth grinding/polishing hard small items. Insert the the screw into a rotary tool's chuck and then turn it on. Coat the wood with a white honing compound like from Beaver Craft and use the compound coated dowel to super smooth all of your filing and cutting marks. Then use another one coated in green polishing compound to bring it all to a super shine. Alternatively finer and finer grits of wet sandpaper can achieve the same effect but with more effort on the sharp edges.

Here's your polished flat blank. Now it's time to shape it. Anvil and plastic coated mallet if it's what you have. Wooden dowels can be used that have been gently ground down to a point. Think very acute triangle as opposed to pencil. Center the nib blank on the dowel and then tape it down with piece of thinly rolled masking tape from past the tip to past the tail. Now roll on a hard flat surface like a cutting board until you get your desired shape. Fine tune the shape with plastic or hard silicone tipped pliers. Now you've got your nib blank rolled into shape.

The fun part comes. Use a jewelry spot welding machine with a foot switch to weld the iridium tip on to the front of the nib. Use a small graphite plate with a tiny divot to hold the iridium tip and plastic/silicone tipped pliers to hold the nib. Line it perfectly at the electrode, exhale and hold your breath, close eyes, then tap the welder with your foot. The ball will fuse to the tip of the nib. Use a .13-.15 mm cutting disc to cut the slit and then grind it down to your specs.

Just Google "jewelry spot welder" and they'll come up pretty cheap.

[MiliM]

I know its an old thread but I've work with metal my whole life so perhaps I can help if you have any problems.

[calamus]

I know its an old thread but I've work with metal my whole life so perhaps I can help if you have any problems.

Do you do any re-tipping? There's a demand for that service. In fact, I've been sort of idly checking around, looking for someone who'll do it without charging an arm and a leg.

[Farmboy]

Serious question. What is a reasonable price?

[calamus]

Serious question. What is a reasonable price?

For me, what I can afford to spend is an important factor. There aren't many people who do re-tipping, so they can pretty much charge what they want. That's not unreasonable of them, but given my budget, it would be unreasonable for me to spend that much on what would essentially be a luxury.

[Farmboy]

Understood. But I’m interested in a dollar amount that makes it viable. For most nibs it is certainly easier and more cost effective to just replace. But when that isn’t doable what cost is reasonable.

[FredRydr]

Understood. But I’m interested in a dollar amount that makes it viable. For most nibs it is certainly easier and more cost effective to just replace. But when that isn’t doable what cost is reasonable.
$100 to laser weld an irreplaceable big Weidlich nib circa 1910 by an experienced repairman who actually understands what he needs to do. Probably more, soon.

Then again, it depends on the quality of the garage door used for straightening.

[joolstacho]

Brilliant eh? There are no old craftsmen in India (they all died young!)

[calamus]

Then again, it depends on the quality of the garage door used for straightening.

78860

[calamus]

And now for something completely different -- how to make a calligraphy pen from a soda can. Seems stupid until you see the final results (Three and a half minute video)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq0iPacHOOY