Has anyone fitted a modern nib to a vintage pen?

[da vinci]

I have a couple of vintage pens, third tier makers not worth much, with damaged nibs. I'd be interested to know if anyone has fitted a modern jowo or bock nib to a vintage pen, and if so how to go about doing this.

Are there any particular nibs/pens that fit well together?

Welcome thoughts.

[Fermata]

For many this was a rite of passage in lerning the repair craft, my goal was to produce a working pen out of a nonworking pen such as a Wearever or a Salz Brothers pen and used whatever I could. It might help if you ahve a box of feeds and nibs from parts pens, typically just IPG nibs.

[Radonactionservices]

I’ve used steel JoWo and Nemosine #5 and #6 to some of the older Sheaffer lever pens. The feed has to be in good condition in order to do this, and it is hit or miss, I suspect because a lot of these feeds were hand made. It does work, though you may have to heat-set, which can be challenging, and I still haven’t mastered.


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[Farmboy]

Certainly possible to fit new nibs to old pens. I receive the reverse request more often. In general you want to find a nib that has the same profile and size and test for fit then adjust feed assuming it fits.

First thing to do is make sure your replacement nib has the right curvature, then make sure it doesn't hit the inner cap. Once you have that worked out adjust flow.

[da vinci]

Thanks all for your replies.

It is good to know that as a matter of principle modern nib to vintage pen can happen, even if fettling maybe required to make it work properly.

If any one else reading this thread has examples of vintage pens to which they have added modern nibs, please do provide some details. Thanks to radonactionservices for the first such example! :)

[arrow]

Unfortunately I can't say I have, however I have been thinking about Bock nibs. They are suppose to be of a reliable quality, and if I understand it right, they are still making both steel and gold nibs. A buttonfiller I have needs a tiny nib, I guess I shall have to search for vintage generic nibs to find one. Vintage pens have all kinds of size differences, and you likely need to tweak things a bit to get it right for the feed.

[penwash]

Fitting a nib into a pen, whether it's vintage or modern, follows the same principles. If a "harmony" between nib, feed, and section can be realized, then you most likely would have a working pen.

The harmony is achieved when:
1. The nib curvature matches the feed. This means that the tip of the nib is not lifting away from the feed when both are inserted into the section.

2. The nib and feed fit into the section snugly (not to tight as to warp the nib, nor too loose as to allow ink to seep out).

3. The feed is not too long (for this trio combination) as to cause ink to pool excessively in the channel (this will result in a very annoying problem which ink will drop from the underside of the nib when writing).

[FredRydr]

...The harmony is achieved when:
...
3. The feed is not too long (for this trio combination) as to cause ink to pool excessively in the channel (this will result in a very annoying problem which ink will drop from the underside of the nib when writing).
Too long feeds cause this? More explanation, please.

[Biber]

For many this was a rite of passage in lerning the repair craft, my goal was to produce a working pen out of a nonworking pen such as a Wearever or a Salz Brothers pen and used whatever I could. It might help if you ahve a box of feeds and nibs from parts pens, typically just IPG nibs.

NNOOOOOO!!!!!! Vintage pens, even the lowliest of them do not deserve the indignity of an IPG nib!!

[penwash]

...The harmony is achieved when:
...
3. The feed is not too long (for this trio combination) as to cause ink to pool excessively in the channel (this will result in a very annoying problem which ink will drop from the underside of the nib when writing).
Too long feeds cause this? More explanation, please.

Yeah, I figure that one needs more elaboration.

It's a special case, but it does happen. Here's how I found out:

I had a pen that I restored, tested and sold to a buyer. The buyer loves the pen, but she noticed that in almost random times, a drop of ink would fall on the paper. So she contacted me and I promptly asked her to ship the pen back to me.

First suspect, a tiny hole in the brand new ink sac, rarely happens, but not impossible, so when I got the pen, I replaced the ink sac and started to test the pen according to the buyers' writing volume (which she told me about).

Surely, on the third page, a drop of ink fell on the paper. Puzzling. I checked and re-checked the nib/feed/section alignments and fit, nothing seems wrong. And for those who don't know me, I have done this ... many, many times, so if there's something off, I'd probably know it intuitively if not definitely.

Much, much later, I finally thought of something:

1. If the ink channel is of a certain depth (remember, we are talking about old feeds, there is no *standard* ink channel depth after decades of unknown usage and condition).

2. And the feed is of a certain length.

3. And the section is longer than the feed (as in this case).

It is possible that the amount of ink pooling in the channel to be too much *sometimes*, just enough for gravity to pull a drop of ink off the nib onto the paper *sometimes*. I also think that temperature and air pressure may have a role, but I can't control those.

Time to test this theory. I shortened the feed so the amount of ink that can pool in the ink channel at any given time is lessen. Fast forward to many days of testing (on and off), I can't get the ink to drop in the middle of writing anymore.

** A similar fix would be to replace the feed with one that is either shorter or has shallower ink channels.

The pen is now back in my *very gracious and patient* buyer's hand and she wrote me that the problem is solved for her also.

Hope this clarifies.

[Cyril]

Modern nib to a Vintage Pen?????
I alway think the other way round as I think it enable the unknown skill to be shown up through a new reborn pen.

For me, modern nibs and vintage nibs are compleately two different Characters in writing aspects .

[da vinci]

Cyril, yes I appreciate my request was out of the ordinary! I don’t have the skill to use a vintage flex nib, I prefer to write with a modern stiffer nib - YMMV 😊 Also I wanted to avoid a lot of time and effort sourcing potentially expensive vintage nibs if I could just use a modern replacement.

[Ole Juul]

Cyril, yes I appreciate my request was out of the ordinary! I don’t have the skill to use a vintage flex nib, I prefer to write with a modern stiffer nib - YMMV 😊 Also I wanted to avoid a lot of time and effort sourcing potentially expensive vintage nibs if I could just use a modern replacement.

I'm not sure what skill you're talking about. Cursive calligraphy with flex is indeed hard, but you can just write normally with a flexible pen as well. I don't eve like calligraphy, and I like a little flex in a nib. It just gives a tiny bit of variation and character to my letters. However none of that has anything to do with "vintage".

Vintage nibs are not all flex. All three of my vintage Sheaffers are nice smooth writers but they have no flex. Most of my other vintage pens have so little flex that you'd never notice if that's not what you were looking for. People are always talking about flex these days. It's a fashion, and it's often misunderstood. I think It's a mythical goal for inexperienced people who don't actually know what they're looking for.

[Chrissy]

People are always talking about flex these days. It's a fashion, and it's often misunderstood. I think It's a mythical goal for inexperienced people who don't actually know what they're looking for.
This. :)

I definitely don't understand it and don't particularly like writing with flexible nibs that only seem to make my writing look wobbly.

[grainweevil]

I think It's a mythical goal for inexperienced people who don't actually know what they're looking for.

I think it would be more accurate to say it's often a mythical goal, etc etc. Not always.

Anyway, I am one of those strange and rare creatures who've fitted a modern nib to a vintage pen. Schmidts and the odd Bock #060. Some of the small Indian nibs are quite handy for such uses too. In the main it's more a case of looking among the off sizes in smaller nibs rather than the #5s and #6s, and as with all nib swapping ever, it always seems to boil down to trial and error.

[da vinci]

I write with a heavy hand and frequently find that vintage nibs don’t suit me. Some modern nibs the same. Like Ole Juul I have vintage pens with no flex which I enjoy very much for example the Sheaffer Triumph nib or the P51 as well as more traditional nib types.

Price is also a factor - the pens whose nibs I am looking to replace are not top tier and have steel nibs already. The gold vintage nibs I have seen sell on eBay (and I mean fairly standard sized CS nibs rather than Onoto #7s) sell for far in excess of the value of the pen itself.

Grainweevil, would you share which makes/models of pens you have switched nibs on?

[penwash]

Cyril, yes I appreciate my request was out of the ordinary! I don’t have the skill to use a vintage flex nib, I prefer to write with a modern stiffer nib - YMMV 😊 Also I wanted to avoid a lot of time and effort sourcing potentially expensive vintage nibs if I could just use a modern replacement.

I'm not sure what skill you're talking about. Cursive calligraphy with flex is indeed hard, but you can just write normally with a flexible pen as well. I don't eve like calligraphy, and I like a little flex in a nib. It just gives a tiny bit of variation and character to my letters. However none of that has anything to do with "vintage".

Vintage nibs are not all flex. All three of my vintage Sheaffers are nice smooth writers but they have no flex. Most of my other vintage pens have so little flex that you'd never notice if that's not what you were looking for. People are always talking about flex these days. It's a fashion, and it's often misunderstood. I think It's a mythical goal for inexperienced people who don't actually know what they're looking for.

This is what people are looking for:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50708123902_71e98c40e1_z.jpg

The ability to produce continuous lines in varying width. Not only that, but also the *writing experience*, which unfortunately no photograph can convey.

NOTE: I am not posting this photo (my writing) as *the* example, let alone a good one. It's just to illustrate that what people are looking for is not "mythical". It's real, but to achieve that you need two things:

1. A flexible nib.
2. Practice. The "skill" comes after a lot of this.

Modern "flexible" nibs rely on modifications (cut-outs) to achieve some flex.

Have you ever seen a really good vintage flex nib that needs to be cut-out to achieve the flex?

I haven't.

So "vintage" has a lot to do when you want to experience the most from flex writing.

Of course, if this doesn't float your boat, moor somewhere else. The coast is big :)

[wingwiper]

I have stuck Noodlers, Goulet, Jowo, Bock nibs into vintage pens, however it seems like sacrilege and usually go back and find the correct or close to it 14k vintage back in it.


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[Ray-VIgo]

I've put modern nibs on vintage pens and I've put vintage nibs on modern pens. For example, I have a Pelikan 140 nib unit fitted with a modern feed and modern Pelikan nib. The unit unscrews and it works when you want a small, vintage Pelikan but you need a more rigid, modern nib with a ball-shaped tip for notetaking or any environment where vintage nib is not as optimal. If you want to go back to vintage, just swap out the unit for the original. I've also put modern nibs in second tier pens like a Morrison's Tourist, and a few others. My preference in a modern nib is the Pelikan M200 steel in medium or fine (if they fit).

I've also put vintage nibs in modern pens. I have a Sheaffer No Nonsense Old Timer (the black chased type) with an original 1920s Sheaffer Flat Top era nib from a desk pen. The challenge there was getting a nib that would fit because of the gauge of the metal of the modern nib being thicker than most 14k gold nibs. But once I found a good nib, it went fine.

So there's nothing to say you "cannot" retrofit nibs or the like. The issue is finding a close fit, and you need to be careful selecting the nib based on the shank length and width, as well as the gauge of the metal. Hard rubber feeds are more forgiving than celluloid because hard rubber develops flexibility when warmed enough, but can also return to its original shape if you need to re-try. Celluloid is not as resilient, though gentle heat is needed to soften it up just a bit to fit the nib (don't cook it though). Pens with a screw-in nib unit are even better because then you work with just the unit collar and feed, and as long as you have the right unit parts, it should screw together.

[da vinci]

Thanks for your input Ray-VIgo, appreciated.

[penwash]

I have stuck Noodlers, Goulet, Jowo, Bock nibs into vintage pens, however it seems like sacrilege and usually go back and find the correct or close to it 14k vintage back in it.


To me, it's not a matter of sacrilege, it's a simple choice between steel modern nibs, or 14k vintage nibs (mostly comes with "character" after decades of existence).

If I like the pen enough to upgrade the nib, I find that I always gravitate towards a 14K vintage one.

My issue usually is that I don't have enough of them :)

[RobJohnson]

It is not as if the fitment of a modern nib is a permanent change. I wouldn't swap out a good and original nib in a vintage pen for a modern nib but I would fit something modern on a temporary basis if I had a vintage pen that needed a nib.

Two examples, I had a no name small button filler without a nib, I fitted a much later Burnham nib to keep the pen in use. I have a 1935 pen that had been in the family from new, it had a terrible steel Warranted nib from new, the pen was unusable. I fitted a modern Indian gold nib/section and feed to keep the pen in use.

[grainweevil]

It is not as if the fitment of a modern nib is a permanent change. I wouldn't swap out a good and original nib in a vintage pen for a modern nib but I would fit something modern on a temporary basis if I had a vintage pen that needed a nib.

Yup, that.


Grainweevil, would you share which makes/models of pens you have switched nibs on?

I was afraid you'd ask that. Let it be said that I'm a bit of an inveterate nib tinkerer, have a fair few pens, and keeping track of what I've done or undone is not a strong point. Off the top of my head I can only think of the modern Kaweco into a 1940s Kaweco Dia and a couple of Schmidts (numbers elude me) in a brace of Cameron and MacNiven eyedroppers that I strongly suspect are not as old as the filling system suggests. Sorry; I'm fully aware those examples are likely as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[Ole Juul]

I have stuck Noodlers, Goulet, Jowo, Bock nibs into vintage pens, however it seems like sacrilege and usually go back and find the correct or close to it 14k vintage back in it.


To me, it's not a matter of sacrilege, it's a simple choice between steel modern nibs, or 14k vintage nibs (mostly comes with "character" after decades of existence).

If I like the pen enough to upgrade the nib, I find that I always gravitate towards a 14K vintage one.

My issue usually is that I don't have enough of them :)

I assume that modern 14K nibs aren't worth the money?

[FredRydr]

...I assume that modern 14K nibs aren't worth the money?
That's a rather broad assumption. I own a ratio of about 30:70 modern to vintage. My modern Auroras, Sheaffers, Montblancs, Pelikans that come to mind have great nibs. Mind you, the ones I now have are the best of what has passed through my hands, but I cannot agree that broadly modern 14k nibs are not worth the money. Some aren't, to be sure, but you gotta try each to find out.

[Ole Juul]

...I assume that modern 14K nibs aren't worth the money?
That's a rather broad assumption. I own a ratio of about 30:70 modern to vintage. My modern Auroras, Sheaffers, Montblancs, Pelikans that come to mind have great nibs. Mind you, the ones I now have are the best of what has passed through my hands, but I cannot agree that broadly modern 14k nibs are not worth the money. Some aren't, to be sure, but you gotta try each to find out.

I have no such assumption myself. I was talking to @penwash. It seemed to be the case with him, judging by what he said. Hence my question.

[wingwiper]

...I assume that modern 14K nibs aren't worth the money?
That's a rather broad assumption. I own a ratio of about 30:70 modern to vintage. My modern Auroras, Sheaffers, Montblancs, Pelikans that come to mind have great nibs. Mind you, the ones I now have are the best of what has passed through my hands, but I cannot agree that broadly modern 14k nibs are not worth the money. Some aren't, to be sure, but you gotta try each to find out.

I agree with Fred where my ratio is more like 70:30 vintage-modern. The Pilot's, Sailor, Platinum, Pelikan, etc. are all worth the money granted gold has sky-rocketed and you will feel a little pain affording a newer pen paying for a gold nib. I just prefer vintage or buying gold nibbed modern pens 2nd hand these days. I just don't get the prices on some pens with steel nibs?

[KrazyIvan]

I bought a pen from Lexaf, a Rotring Tintenkuli (I think I spelled that right.) pen that required turning the section and reworking it to accept a Reform fountain pen nib and feed. Does that count? :crazy_pilot: His thread of how he went about the whole thing should be around here somewhere. Here it is: https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/17498-Rotring-The-making-of-a-Frankenkuli-Part-one-The-nib

[penwash]

I have stuck Noodlers, Goulet, Jowo, Bock nibs into vintage pens, however it seems like sacrilege and usually go back and find the correct or close to it 14k vintage back in it.


To me, it's not a matter of sacrilege, it's a simple choice between steel modern nibs, or 14k vintage nibs (mostly comes with "character" after decades of existence).

If I like the pen enough to upgrade the nib, I find that I always gravitate towards a 14K vintage one.

My issue usually is that I don't have enough of them :)

I assume that modern 14K nibs aren't worth the money?

Speaking for myself, I like to buy in bulk. I try to buy a bunch of vintage pens at once whenever I can.

This way I usually get quite a few vintage gold nibs for the same price that I'd have to pay Sailor to give me *one* of their 21K nib (I'd have to buy the pen also, I don't have connections who would allow me to buy just the nib).

So I would love to get my hand on a stack of modern Sailor, Faber-Castell, Pilot, or Aurora gold nibs. But I don't know how to get them in bulk. And I can't justify their prices if I had to also buy the pens, unless I want to be one of their dealers, which is *not* how I want to spend my time in this hobby.

Another important consideration for me is flex (others couldn't care less about this, so this matters zero to them).
I can't get 14k modern nibs that is as flexible as my vintage ones.
And I suspect that *if* one existed, it is too expensive for me to justify.

[Ole Juul]

When I bought my first new pen in a long time, I chose an inexpensive Kaweco Sport. I noticed that they have a gold nib upgrade available in many stores for around $150. At that relatively ignorant point in my fountain pen journey I had considered it. However, I don't hear people talk about them, let alone extol their virtues, so I gave it a pass. I'm glad I did, because I've since discovered that I can get a completely restored Sheaffer (or other vintage pen) for only a few bucks more than a Kaweco that has a very excellent gold nib already.

[pajaro]

I fitted a Montblanc 144 14K nib to a no name black hard rubber pen. The BHR pen is an eyedropper. It burps as well as the rest of the eyedroppers do. The BHR pen came from an estate sale, and the nib was rusted. Had to do something.

[mizgeorge]

I'm another nib swapper - and will happily fit whatever I think will work best for the pen (ancient or modern), and for what I want it to do.

In terms of what the OP is looking for, though, I think the thing to avoid is vintage nibs for the European market - far more of these are likely to be flexible (to a greater or lesser extent), where 'nails' were more likely to be fitted to pens sold in or exported to the US and Canada, where that was, at the time, the preferred style.

That's certainly the case in my admittedly limited experience.

[da vinci]

I'm another nib swapper - and will happily fit whatever I think will work best for the pen (ancient or modern), and for what I want it to do.

In terms of what the OP is looking for, though, I think the thing to avoid is vintage nibs for the European market - far more of these are likely to be flexible (to a greater or lesser extent), where 'nails' were more likely to be fitted to pens sold in or exported to the US and Canada, where that was, at the time, the preferred style.

That's certainly the case in my admittedly limited experience.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Would you be able to provide some further details on the pens/nibs involved in your swapping and how easy/difficult you have found this to do? Thanks :)

[mizgeorge]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Would you be able to provide some further details on the pens/nibs involved in your swapping and how easy/difficult you have found this to do? Thanks :)

Just about anything I fancy - from putting vintage flex nibs (often from otherwise unsalvageable pens) into basic Chinese bodies - I'm currently using a nib and slightly modified feed from an old Swan with a completely mangled barrel in a Jinhao xX450, to the complete opposite - for example a new JoWo nib (which I've stubbed myself) in a Pelikan 400NN - the latter done because I wanted to check that the pen was working fine, and ended up rather liking the result. I did make a point of using a 'proper' collar for this one to be sure I wouldn't damage the section threads. None have been particularly challenging - but as a goldsmith I already have a lot of tools on my bench that aren't exactly everyday.

I find one of the most helpful things is to take lots of pictures during the disassembly - and also measurements (a basic set of digital calipers are ideal here) as the key almost always the relationship between nib, feed and pen - trying to stay as close as possible to the original makes all the difference, and it's very easy for things to slip out of alignment, especially with anything push-fit. The other thing is to allow enough time. It always takes far longer than you might think, and if it gets frustrating, it's often better to walk away for a while - trying again later seems to work far better than hurting your fingers (and your feed!)

I'm also pretty unworried about getting it wrong - I've sacrificed a few ancient feeds in my attempts to get them to fit properly (especially for things like using dip pen nibs in modern piston-fillers) and replaced them with modern Indian ebonite ones that are cheap enough for me to have no qualms about hacking them mercilessly with all sorts of odd sharp implements.

I tend to be looking for a more flexible (or at least softer) nib most of the time - especially for some of my more interesting coloured inks. For something firmer, a lot of modern steel nibs would do the job very well if you're happy to spend a bit of time smoothing and shaping, which takes no more than some micromesh or similar. For older pens, if the integrity of the look is important, I would use a GP version before I'd necessarily worry about finding a gold version - although these are easy enough to source from otherwise beyond-repair pens, which perhaps goes back more to your original question. I'd much rather have one pen that writes beautifully than two that are pretty but meh to use.

All of this said, I'm not much of a purist - I don't collect pens for display/decorative/investment purposes - all my pens are used and I'm not messing around with super-expensive limited edition Italian masterpieces or stunningly finished Japanese object's d'art!

Go play!

[Ron Z]

I bought a stock of Prelude nibs a number of years ago just to put in lower end pens that don't have a nib, or had a really bad nib. They're good nibs, and were relatively inexpensive. I also have an OS Balance nib in a Pelikan 800, but may change that. Many of my "fantasy" Connaisseur pens have vintage nibs because I think that they write better than the later Sheaffer nibs. If you like the nib, and it fits properly, and you are not planning to sell it, why not?


A similar fix would be to replace the feed with one that is either shorter or has shallower ink channels.

That should be enough to link to the post above. I'm not sure that the length of the feed vs section was the problem. Maybe, but not likely. We find pens with feeds that are shorter, long, or the same length as a section that work perfectly fine. A nib and feed that are not tight in the section could be a problem, and I've run across many cases where the air channel was too deep, so caused the pen to flood. Replacing the feed took care of the problem. A pen that is nearly empty will tend to flood as well - maybe 3 pages worth would be enough if it didn't fill quite right.

Many sections have two diameters cut in them - one wide enough to give a snug fit to nib and feed, and then the back cut to be a close fit to the tail of the feed, to keep ink from leaking around the feed.

This picture shows two Waterman feeds - the difference in the depth of the air channel is clear - and the deeper one on the left caused the pen to flood. Once changed, the problem went away.

https://www.mainstreetpens.com/pix/feedends.jpg

[da vinci]

Thanks Ron, appreciate your comments.