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Cookedj
March 17th, 2021, 01:14 PM
It's a very hot topic and I am just interested to hear (read) your thoughts. Are you getting a vaccine? Why or Why not? Which one will you take, one of the two shot ones or the Johnson & Johnson one shot?

Since it would be rude to ask questions and not answer myself, here are my answers: No, at least not yet. I was given so many vaccines in the military that were trials, or new and there was never any solid data on long term issues (or how they interacted with all of the other vaccines we were given) which has made me skeptical. I also have reservations about taking vaccines for illnesses with a survival rate of over 99.9%.

No judgement, no politics, I'm just interested in what other people think.

Ray-VIgo
March 17th, 2021, 02:16 PM
My grandmother is still on the wait list at age 91, though my parents (each around 70) have gotten the first dose and are awaiting the second. I am not eligible yet but eventually, I'll probably decide in favor of the one-dose Johnson & Johnson. Being toward the back of the line, I've just been in the "wait and see" what turns up mode.

I am indeed concerned about short-term and long-term side effects. My firm works in an "essential" field and we deal with people on a regular basis because must come to our office to handle personal and confidential matters. So I suppose I have some risk of getting sick if someone comes in with COVID without knowing it, and then I guess if I got it, it might be possible to give it to others I have to meet with subsequently. Part of our practice involves working with the elderly and some people who are ill already, so I'd rather not put them at risk either. I'm sure many of them are vaccinated, but some probably are not, for varying reasons. If people suddenly start getting sick or dying from the vaccine, then I would hold off. The Astra vaccine has had issues, but the Johnson & Johnson seems to be better. I know of quite a few people who have been vaccinated and are doing quite well.

Given the balance of facts, I'll get the vaccine. I'm not good with needles, so the one dose is more appealing to me than having to do it twice. It's a "balance of the risks" for me.

dneal
March 17th, 2021, 03:58 PM
The VA has called me twice offering the vaccine. Both times I told them I see lots of old guys in the hospital and clinic, and I'm sure one of them needs it more than me.

Like the OP, I'm a little gun-shy; particularly after the anthrax vaccine we all had to get. In that case, if you missed the window for the next round (in my case because the Army screwed up and didn't have it on hand); you got to start it over. I think I've had 5 anthrax shots (instead of the required 3).

I'm a little hesitant also because of how this vaccine works. In most cases, you get a dead or weakened version of a virus and your body develops the antibody "recipe" should you ever encounter the real thing. You stay immunized for 5 years to life, depending on the vaccine.

In the case of the COVID vaccine (the J&J is a little different), you are injected with mRNA (which is essentially an instruction set for DNA) and cells start making the "spikes" of the corona-attribute of the virus. Your body learns the antibody recipe, and you remain immunized for nobody knows how long. J&J genetically altered the adenovirus to do essentially the same thing, which is why it doesn't have such strict storage issues.

mRNA vaccines are not new, but also not proven. The fast-tracking to get it to market bypassed a lot of bureaucratic hurdles, but also a lot of safety protocols. COVID is far less lethal than the media would have people believe. The risk-reward calculus doesn't pass muster with me at this point.

Cookedj
March 17th, 2021, 05:03 PM
The VA has called me twice offering the vaccine. Both times I told them I see lots of old guys in the hospital and clinic, and I'm sure one of them needs it more than me.

Like the OP, I'm a little gun-shy; particularly after the anthrax vaccine we all had to get. In that case, if you missed the window for the next round (in my case because the Army screwed up and didn't have it on hand); you got to start it over. I think I've had 5 anthrax shots (instead of the required 3).

I'm a little hesitant also because of how this vaccine works. In most cases, you get a dead or weakened version of a virus and your body develops the antibody "recipe" should you ever encounter the real thing. You stay immunized for 5 years to life, depending on the vaccine.

In the case of the COVID vaccine (the J&J is a little different), you are injected with mRNA (which is essentially an instruction set for DNA) and cells start making the "spikes" of the corona-attribute of the virus. Your body learns the antibody recipe, and you remain immunized for nobody knows how long. J&J genetically altered the adenovirus to do essentially the same thing, which is why it doesn't have such strict storage issues.

mRNA vaccines are not new, but also not proven. The fast-tracking to get it to market bypassed a lot of bureaucratic hurdles, but also a lot of safety protocols. COVID is far less lethal than the media would have people believe. The risk-reward calculus doesn't pass muster with me at this point.

The Anthrax shots with boosters, Gulf War pills, along with the rabies and plague shots make me gun shy.

fountainpenkid
March 17th, 2021, 09:18 PM
The VA has called me twice offering the vaccine. Both times I told them I see lots of old guys in the hospital and clinic, and I'm sure one of them needs it more than me.

Like the OP, I'm a little gun-shy; particularly after the anthrax vaccine we all had to get. In that case, if you missed the window for the next round (in my case because the Army screwed up and didn't have it on hand); you got to start it over. I think I've had 5 anthrax shots (instead of the required 3).

I'm a little hesitant also because of how this vaccine works. In most cases, you get a dead or weakened version of a virus and your body develops the antibody "recipe" should you ever encounter the real thing. You stay immunized for 5 years to life, depending on the vaccine.

In the case of the COVID vaccine (the J&J is a little different), you are injected with mRNA (which is essentially an instruction set for DNA) and cells start making the "spikes" of the corona-attribute of the virus. Your body learns the antibody recipe, and you remain immunized for nobody knows how long. J&J genetically altered the adenovirus to do essentially the same thing, which is why it doesn't have such strict storage issues.

mRNA vaccines are not new, but also not proven. The fast-tracking to get it to market bypassed a lot of bureaucratic hurdles, but also a lot of safety protocols. COVID is far less lethal than the media would have people believe. The risk-reward calculus doesn't pass muster with me at this point.
Oh, the point should be tired by now but apparently isn't: its not JUST about lethality. Long-term effects of infection are not rare, and should factor into everyone's personal risk assessment.

mRNA vaccines seem no riskier at this point, and there's no evidence suggesting they're less effective long term than traditional designs.

adhoc
March 18th, 2021, 06:05 AM
My wife got Astra Zeneca jab and she's currently in emergency hospital because of lung issues, 3 days after. The issues began 1 day after vaccination.

Before this I was all for it (the vaccine), now I wouldn't take it, nor do I want her to get the second dose. I just hope she gets out of this well.

She's in early 30s, we already had covid, and covid put none of us in emergency room, it wasn't even bad at all. I seriously hope she'll be fine, we have a year and a half old to take care of...

This is not political, this is not to convince anyone into anything, if you have a political or whatever opinion on this I don't care and I'm not here to argue. I'm here because I'm fucking panicing right now, as she was admitted to ER in the middle of work and I don't know what will happen to her. This is my honest, personal experience with both the vaccine and covid. I don't care about statistics, I'm well aware of all of them, but when it happens to you, the statistics are not a consolation.

fountainpenkid
March 18th, 2021, 06:55 AM
My wife got Astra Zeneca jab and she's currently in emergency hospital because of lung issues, 3 days after. The issues began 1 day after vaccination.

Before this I was all for it (the vaccine), now I wouldn't take it, nor do I want her to get the second dose. I just hope she gets out of this well.

She's in early 30s, we already had covid, and covid put none of us in emergency room, it wasn't even bad at all. I seriously hope she'll be fine, we have a year and a half old to take care of...

This is not political, this is not to convince anyone into anything, if you have a political or whatever opinion on this I don't care and I'm not here to argue. I'm here because I'm fucking panicing right now, as she was admitted to ER in the middle of work and I don't know what will happen to her. This is my honest, personal experience with both the vaccine and covid. I don't care about statistics, I'm well aware of all of them, but when it happens to you, the statistics are not a consolation.
That sounds terrifying. I wish her a quick recovery, whatever the cause.

Cookedj
March 18th, 2021, 11:02 AM
My wife got Astra Zeneca jab and she's currently in emergency hospital because of lung issues, 3 days after. The issues began 1 day after vaccination.

Before this I was all for it (the vaccine), now I wouldn't take it, nor do I want her to get the second dose. I just hope she gets out of this well.

She's in early 30s, we already had covid, and covid put none of us in emergency room, it wasn't even bad at all. I seriously hope she'll be fine, we have a year and a half old to take care of...

This is not political, this is not to convince anyone into anything, if you have a political or whatever opinion on this I don't care and I'm not here to argue. I'm here because I'm fucking panicing right now, as she was admitted to ER in the middle of work and I don't know what will happen to her. This is my honest, personal experience with both the vaccine and covid. I don't care about statistics, I'm well aware of all of them, but when it happens to you, the statistics are not a consolation.

I hope and pray your wife gets better.

adhoc
March 18th, 2021, 01:37 PM
She's been discharged and told she's just imagining the pain in chest. This whole thing really opened my eyes - nobody really knows anything, everyone claims it's fine and safe, but when it comes to taking responsibility you get silence.

If I did my job this way as an engineer, I'd be fired within a week.

fountainpenkid
March 18th, 2021, 02:20 PM
She's been discharged and told she's just imagining the pain in chest. This whole thing really opened my eyes - nobody really knows anything, everyone claims it's fine and safe, but when it comes to taking responsibility you get silence.

If I did my job this way as an engineer, I'd be fired within a week.

I'm glad to hear that, although I doubt she's just imagining the pain and hope it resolves. Not sure how recently you and your wife had the disease itself, but chest pain w/ no easy medical explanation is something often associated with "long COVID" (post-acute symptoms). Perhaps the vaccination was related to the onset of this symptom....of course I'm just throwing out ideas here. Note that post-acute symptoms can arise even in people whose acute illness was very mild or nonexistent.

Regardless, I don't think this should lead you or others to be vaccine-skeptical. They were already tested rigorously before emergency approval, but with something like 80 million doses in this country alone and no reports of issues (past the excruciatingly rare possible platelet disorder, and a minute number of very old, sick and frail people passing from side effects), they are far safer than most things in life. We should feel lucky they are as safe and effective as they are, because they are really the only tool we have at this point to get through this pandemic ethically.

Ray-VIgo
March 18th, 2021, 02:56 PM
My wife got Astra Zeneca jab and she's currently in emergency hospital because of lung issues, 3 days after. The issues began 1 day after vaccination.

Before this I was all for it (the vaccine), now I wouldn't take it, nor do I want her to get the second dose. I just hope she gets out of this well.

She's in early 30s, we already had covid, and covid put none of us in emergency room, it wasn't even bad at all. I seriously hope she'll be fine, we have a year and a half old to take care of...

This is not political, this is not to convince anyone into anything, if you have a political or whatever opinion on this I don't care and I'm not here to argue. I'm here because I'm fucking panicing right now, as she was admitted to ER in the middle of work and I don't know what will happen to her. This is my honest, personal experience with both the vaccine and covid. I don't care about statistics, I'm well aware of all of them, but when it happens to you, the statistics are not a consolation.

The Astra Zeneca seems to be having the highest number of reported side effects. Blood clotting seems to be a recurring feature among them. I'm still more likely than not to get a vaccine, but I'd pass on the Astra Zeneca at this point. Now parts of Europe are halting distribution of that vaccine as well.

adhoc
March 18th, 2021, 03:12 PM
Yes, I don't want to discourage anyone from getting vaccinated, ESPECIALLY older people, but Norway has found a link between AZ vaccine and blood clots. It seems women under age of 39 are especially susceptible.

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/KyGv2G/professor-says-cause-of-rare-bloodclots-in-people-vaccinated-with-astrazeneca-has-been-found

We got through covid about 3 months ago.

I honestly thought it's political, because this fallout between EU and Brexit has been childish from both sides.

Chuck Naill
March 18th, 2021, 06:33 PM
I had the opportunity in January given my professonal position. We received the Moderna mdna vaccine. No post vaccine adverse reactions. I am very happy that it's befind me. I feel that I am more able to do what I want without a mask.

Lady Onogaro
March 18th, 2021, 08:37 PM
I had the first shot two weeks ago and am due the next one next week. I have never looked forward to a shot as much as this one! Even though my arm hurt the next day, it did give me a bit of an emotional boost, hoping that things will turn around soon.

My parents had their shots the same day I did (they are 81 and 87 and had Covid in July). My mom had 2 strokes in October; seems she has Afib. But she had been having trouble breathing after Covid and even now that she has recovered from the strokes. I'm beginning to think she's a long-hauler in some respects.

When they tested her at the hospital, they said they could tell she had had Covid because of the microclots, so I am wondering if some of the reported clots for the AstraZeneca is due to people having had Covid and not realizing it. My mom was completely asymptomatic compared to my Dad and was quite shocked when she found out she was positive.

Since the shot (Moderna), my Dad seems to have improved some; he's not coughing nearly as much, my Mom says. I understand that this is a reported side-effect of the vaccine for some people.

Oh, I had the Moderna vaccine, too.

adhoc
March 19th, 2021, 12:38 AM
Moderna / Pfizer are the best vaccines, aren't they? Least side effects and most effective.

Cookedj
March 19th, 2021, 07:33 AM
Moderna / Pfizer are the best vaccines, aren't they? Least side effects and most effective.

That answer depends on who you ask. If you don't get the 2nd shot in the prescribed time, is it effective at all? That is one of Johnson and Johnson's selling points -one shot and done. As for side effects - I have seen none to brain damage caused by the vaccine. Honestly, I just don't think we know. I'm glad your wife is doing better (at least out of the hospital)

TSherbs
March 19th, 2021, 08:04 AM
We DO know about side effects: there are very, very few serious side effects, statistically. Even the reported stroke side effects of the AZ vax is less than the rate of stroke in the general population. The possibility of harm from these vaccines on the population is statistically far, far, far less than the possibility of harm on the population from not getting one. Honestly, vaccine science and widespread use is one of the miracles of modern living. I recently read that the mrna approach may now be turned to developing a malaria vaccine to fight the most deadly scourge of the world today. Please, yes!

fountainpenkid
March 19th, 2021, 08:52 AM
Moderna / Pfizer are the best vaccines, aren't they? Least side effects and most effective.

Actually the mRNA vaccines have a higher incidence of side effects than the J&J shot (not sure about others). The Moderna in particular is known for strong side effects following the 2nd shot.
Cookedj--it seems that a single shot of Pfizer or Moderna is quite effective, but less than the ~95% efficacy 2 weeks post 2nd shot. For some people who've already had it, the second dose seems unnecessary: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/health/have-you-had-covid-19-coronavirus.html

TSherbs
March 22nd, 2021, 08:19 AM
Here's what looks like a thorough history of the AZ vax situation in Europe and the controversy around it. My conclusion is that it, and the other vaccines, are very, very safe and much less risky, especially for any group of population, than not getting the vaccine, particularly as more variants spread more widely. Europe is having another surge, and they delayed vaccination for a while (different countries different lengths of time). The surges in the US often follow those in Europe. We'll see if we can vaccinated enough of the population to avoid that surge come this spring and summer.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-20/how-europe-injected-more-doubt-into-a-vaccine-the-world-needs

welch
March 22nd, 2021, 10:14 AM
Atlantic Magazine had a useful article about the side-effects of the second vaccine shot. We had our second Moderna shot in mid-February. That night, I woke up with terrible chills. Worse than I can ever remember. Took some Alleve, drifted back to sleep, and woke up feeling OK. I was a little groggy the rest of the day, and felt fine the next day. No big deal.

Get the vaccine.

"Side effects are just a sign that protection is kicking in as it should": https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/02/second-vaccine-side-effects/617892/

Cyril
March 22nd, 2021, 10:23 AM
[QUOTE= My conclusion is that it, and the other vaccines, are very, very safe and much less risky, especially for any group of population, than not getting the vaccine, particularly as more variants spread more widely.
Europe is having another surge,
The surges in the US often follow those in Europe.
We'll see if we can vaccinated enough of the population to avoid that surge come this spring and summer.

Why do people should take preventive unknown Chemicales (medicines ) to be safe from unknown, unproven existing, so called deadly, pandemic dis-eases ??
This is is an utterly idiotic concept. This is from the book of CROWD CONDITIONING. Wrong education done by masses.

People are being misinformed and it is amazing how it had being done by centuries.
According to many specialised doctors on their profession of health and Quotes- LET THE FIRST MILLION IDIOTS GET PERILED BY BEING THE GUINEA PIGS by these " EXPERIMENTING INJECTABLES ' ( THEY DON'T EVEN NAME THEM AS VACCINE) YOU JUST BE AWAY FROM THEM FOR the time being. Time will show up what is the out come and the story of the " SURGE " is.

Whatever happening in USA, It is of course another "SURGE' IN OUR CONTINENT OF Europe. This week-end mass protets followed in UK ( Burned down a Police Station in a county UK ),France , Germany etc. Pandemic Civil War is at the Door-step.
These doctors specialised in Virology gives a hint what is pandemic Virus is when it happened in our the written history , and How we were educated and who is behind that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGIzWjjkpNk&list=PLkY39DbS3XEK1UPR_Ib0jt_w5STtVv_xI&index=171

German Lawyer Sues The World Over Coronavirus: Can this happen to show the nakedness in CORONA HOAX? I am very interested in knowing the answer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpOzHHJmy7g Watch this video will blow the mind.

And again what Vaccines do as a business than a chemical to help the human heath.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HAyH8cegHQ

And why the hell these injectables are known as " Experiment Injectables "

TSherbs
March 22nd, 2021, 10:37 AM
^^^ "so-called deadly pandemic"?

that's deadly idiocy, right there

azkid
March 25th, 2021, 02:52 PM
I can't wait to get the vaccine (well I can and I have to like many others).

I kind of want the J&J so I don't have to hassle with the second shot but obviously I will take whatever I can get (Pfizer or Moderns).

All of them significantly reduce severity of infection and that's the thing that has worried me most all along.

Unfortunately, the wait lists are long in Colorado.

TFarnon
March 25th, 2021, 03:27 PM
I've already had both my COVID shots (Moderna). I was in the Army, and I got all kinds of shots, some of them trials.

My military service experience merely made me extremely blase about other vaccines. I would prefer to never get the injected Typhoid vaccine ever again, because it was the worst of what I've ever had, but if Typhoid was a real concern in my life, I'd put up with it. I still want Anthrax and Rabies shots. I'd also had a lot more vaccinations than usual because my family traveled internationally when I was a child. I've come to regard vaccinations as sort of a hobby--I call it my "Human Pincushion Collection" and consider my yellow shot record booklet analogous to the little notebooks used by trainspotters.

I also worked in research doing molecular biology for 9 years. Part of that work involved making mRNA the same way they do it for the vaccine, except on a much smaller scale. I also used a transfection reagent, Lipofectamine, that is essentially the same as the lipid delivery system used in the vaccine. And yes, I know I got that stuff on my exposed skin from time to time. I'm definitely familiar with and not afraid of the technology involved.

My main reason for getting the COVID vaccine was that I knew it could be worse than influenza. I've had influenza more than once, sometimes because the vaccine wasn't a good match to the circulating strain(s), and sometimes because it was before the era of widespread influenza vaccination. My tangles with influenza have been pretty bad, and I'll do almost anything to avoid it. So, if COVID has the potential to be worse than influenza, the only question was how many people would I knock over in my enthusiasm to be vaccinated. I want no part of feeling as ill as or worse than influenza, not now, not ever.

MarcoA64
March 26th, 2021, 05:24 PM
My wife and I had the AZ vaccine. I was worried after all the 'hipe' on AZ's side effects. Not being able to choose I accepted it. Have we been lucky ? Probably. Side effects ? 3 days after my arm is still sore. The day after I felt completely in pieces. Took paracetamol to feel better and it worked and so did my wife. Secon shot in June. The freely available amount of misinformation today is massive. Anyone can say what they want and there is no prosecution for this. All in all you do what you think is best for you.

dneal
March 26th, 2021, 07:32 PM
I would prefer to never get the injected Typhoid vaccine ever again...

You can say that again. I've had it twice. I'm just going to assume I'm good for typhoid until my expiration date.

adhoc
March 27th, 2021, 07:19 AM
My wife and I had the AZ vaccine. I was worried after all the 'hipe' on AZ's side effects. Not being able to choose I accepted it. Have we been lucky ? Probably. Side effects ? 3 days after my arm is still sore. The day after I felt completely in pieces. Took paracetamol to feel better and it worked and so did my wife. Secon shot in June. The freely available amount of misinformation today is massive. Anyone can say what they want and there is no prosecution for this. All in all you do what you think is best for you.

You can't judge a vaccine on a sample size of two - you and your wife. Although AZ vaccine is for sure much safer than some news headlines would lead you to believe, not everyone will have the same effects after the shot. There are definitely 2-3 per million of people with blood clots issues, especially younger people.

I don't think you were lucky. Chances of having severe issues after the shot are extremely small. It's the other way around - you're unlucky if you get them.

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 11:05 AM
My wife and I had the AZ vaccine. I was worried after all the 'hipe' on AZ's side effects. Not being able to choose I accepted it. Have we been lucky ? Probably. Side effects ? 3 days after my arm is still sore. The day after I felt completely in pieces. Took paracetamol to feel better and it worked and so did my wife. Secon shot in June. The freely available amount of misinformation today is massive. Anyone can say what they want and there is no prosecution for this. All in all you do what you think is best for you.

You can't judge a vaccine on a sample size of two - you and your wife. Although AZ vaccine is for sure much safer than some news headlines would lead you to believe, not everyone will have the same effects after the shot. There are definitely 2-3 per million of people with blood clots issues, especially younger people.

I don't think you were lucky. Chances of having severe issues after the shot are extremely small. It's the other way around - you're unlucky if you get them.

I don't think that it is clinically correct to call these rare occurrences "effects" after the shot. That word suggests causation, which has not been determined, particularly because the rates are so low (not statistically different from the general population, according to reports).

welch
March 27th, 2021, 11:14 AM
I had a brutal chills-attack the night after getting my second shot. After shivering under extra blankets for about an hour, I took about three Alleve (Naproxen Sodium), and dropped off to sleep. Felt fine the next day, although a little sluggish.

Atlantic Magazine explains:

Side effects are a natural part of the vaccination process, as my colleague Sarah Zhang has written. Not everyone will experience them. But the two COVID-19 vaccines cleared for emergency use in the United States, made by Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna, already have reputations for raising the hackles of the immune system: In both companies’ clinical trials, at least a third of the volunteers ended up with symptoms such as headaches and fatigue; fevers like my husband’s were less common.

Dose No. 2 is more likely to pack a punch—in large part because the effects of the second shot build iteratively on the first. My husband, who’s a neurologist at Yale New Haven Hospital, is one of many who had a worse experience with his second shot than his first.

But much like any other learning process, in this one repetition is key. When hit with the second injection, the immune system recognizes the onslaught, and starts to take it even more seriously. The body’s encore act, uncomfortable though it might be, is evidence that the immune system is solidifying its defenses against the virus.

“By the second vaccine, it’s already amped up and ready to go,” Jasmine Marcelin, an infectious-disease physician at the University of Nebraska Medical Center, told me. Fortunately, side effects resolve quickly, whereas COVID-19 can bring on debilitating, months-long symptoms and has killed more than 2 million people.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/02/second-vaccine-side-effects/617892/

As we have read, the risk of blood clots in people who receive Astra Zenica is a little lower than people in general.

Chuck Naill
March 27th, 2021, 12:13 PM
When I was 32 I contracted a form of infectious arthritis that left permanant articular damage. I finally got over it after 6 month. My primary care physician said he suspected it was from influenza, but not cause was ever determined. I've got a flu vaccine since.

In 2015 I was bitten by a tick, had the classic bulleye rash. Had night sweats, changes in taste, fatique, and chills for two years. And, never had a positive diagnosis of Rocky Mtn or Lyme disease.

There are people who have contracted COVID-19 who have had double lung transplant, prolonged and multiple bout of pneumonia, and other horrible symptoms, beside death.

I think was all have to determine what is best of ourselves. Personally, I do not want anymore months or years of symptoms from an infection.

adhoc
March 27th, 2021, 12:28 PM
My wife and I had the AZ vaccine. I was worried after all the 'hipe' on AZ's side effects. Not being able to choose I accepted it. Have we been lucky ? Probably. Side effects ? 3 days after my arm is still sore. The day after I felt completely in pieces. Took paracetamol to feel better and it worked and so did my wife. Secon shot in June. The freely available amount of misinformation today is massive. Anyone can say what they want and there is no prosecution for this. All in all you do what you think is best for you.

You can't judge a vaccine on a sample size of two - you and your wife. Although AZ vaccine is for sure much safer than some news headlines would lead you to believe, not everyone will have the same effects after the shot. There are definitely 2-3 per million of people with blood clots issues, especially younger people.

I don't think you were lucky. Chances of having severe issues after the shot are extremely small. It's the other way around - you're unlucky if you get them.

I don't think that it is clinically correct to call these rare occurrences "effects" after the shot. That word suggests causation, which has not been determined, particularly because the rates are so low (not statistically different from the general population, according to reports).

False. Germany and Norway have proved why, how and when they happen and also what to look out for and how to circumvent it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/scientists-say-they-found-cause-of-blood-clotting-linked-to-astrazeneca-vaccine-11616169108

If you don't think WSJ is a credible source you can find it in many other news outlets.

I'm not debating against vaccines. I do want to be factual and not pull in either direction.

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 01:32 PM
My wife and I had the AZ vaccine. I was worried after all the 'hipe' on AZ's side effects. Not being able to choose I accepted it. Have we been lucky ? Probably. Side effects ? 3 days after my arm is still sore. The day after I felt completely in pieces. Took paracetamol to feel better and it worked and so did my wife. Secon shot in June. The freely available amount of misinformation today is massive. Anyone can say what they want and there is no prosecution for this. All in all you do what you think is best for you.

You can't judge a vaccine on a sample size of two - you and your wife. Although AZ vaccine is for sure much safer than some news headlines would lead you to believe, not everyone will have the same effects after the shot. There are definitely 2-3 per million of people with blood clots issues, especially younger people.

I don't think you were lucky. Chances of having severe issues after the shot are extremely small. It's the other way around - you're unlucky if you get them.

I don't think that it is clinically correct to call these rare occurrences "effects" after the shot. That word suggests causation, which has not been determined, particularly because the rates are so low (not statistically different from the general population, according to reports).

False. Germany and Norway have proved why, how and when they happen and also what to look out for and how to circumvent it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/scientists-say-they-found-cause-of-blood-clotting-linked-to-astrazeneca-vaccine-11616169108

If you don't think WSJ is a credible source you can find it in many other news outlets.

I'm not debating against vaccines. I do want to be factual and not pull in either direction.

Excellent. So I assume that you noted that the article states that the researchers say that there "could be" a linkage, however rare.

That's different from my point about calling a blood clot an "effect". You left out all the qualification and limitations of the speculations of the research results.

The WSJ headline is bullshit. The article (I could only read three paragraphs before I hit the pay wall) appears not to support the sensational hype of the title.

If you could paste the whole article here, I could read it further.

And yes, I consider the WSJ a credible publication. But that has nothing to do with what I think of headlines and their fair representation of what the reporters state in their actual writing.

adhoc
March 27th, 2021, 03:07 PM
https://m.dw.com/en/astrazeneca-german-team-discovers-thrombosis-trigger/a-56925550

They certainly did find what triggers it. If you're further interested you can search up more data yourself.

Yes, it hasn't been published in a peer reviewed publishing yet, but discounting it as not real because of that is very dishonest, especially considering time constraints.

There is no need to treat vaccines as a religion. It's not yet another us vs them topic. Vaccines absolutely have side effects and it's good we know about them, so we can make an informed decision.

All in all, covid vaccines have been super successful in being safe and effective.

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 03:17 PM
Of course vaccines have side effects. No one here has denied that. That would be silly. I don't know why you write some of the things that you do. Also, no one here is being "dishonest" about discrediting the studies about lack of peer review. I sure didn't say a single word about that.

And who is treating vaccines as a "religion"? What are you talking about?

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 03:34 PM
https://m.dw.com/en/astrazeneca-german-team-discovers-thrombosis-trigger/a-56925550

They certainly did find what triggers it...

Not in the article you quote here. That article has nothing. I clicked on one of the hyperlinks 8n the article that looked promising and saw this:

>>>Berlit, who teaches at the University of Duisburg-Essen, also has a hard time with the authorities' decision. "At the moment, from a purely statistical point of view, there are more arguments against a connection than for a connection."<<<

So Adhoc, this is my whole point, and nothing more: that the AZ vax "causes" thrombosis or has the "effect" of causing thrombosis has not yet been determined in any definitive way. A mechanism has been suggested for how it "could" cause thrombosis, but this is not saying the same thing. Even the one "expert" quoted in the article linked by the one you posted states that the suggestion of "linkage" is not statistically supported.

I am not stating that the AZ vax could never have this effect, nor am I stating that it does not. I am only stating that we are in the "maybe" or "might" or "could" stage. In other words, still too early, still too speculative, and not at all definitive (and still rare incidence rate). But "incidence" is not "causation".

adhoc
March 27th, 2021, 03:48 PM
I don't understand, are you not seeing the same article as I am? They found the thrombosis trigger, they know why it happens, and how to treat it.

"Researchers at the Greifswald teaching hospital in northern Germany said on Friday that they had discovered the cause of the unusual blood clotting found in some recipients of the AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine, public broadcaster Norddeutscher Rundfunk (NDR) reported.
The investigation showed how the vaccine caused rare thrombosis in the brain in a small number of patients.
The discovery means that targeted treatment can be offered to those who suffer similar clotting, using a very common medication."

The good news being that a) it's extremely rare (2-3 per million) and b) that it can be treated with off the shelf common meds.

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 04:20 PM
No, I saw that. The article says nothing more, nor does it reference a paper, a report, any data, nor the mechanism referred to. I actually don't trust that summary of what the researchers "found." There is no way that the researchers found how that thrombosis was caused in those actual patients. The thrombosis could have been the result of several other natural causes, all which contribute to an incidence rate equal to that of the AZ recipient pool.

That DW article, I suspect, is errant in its summary because it elaborates not at all and does not interview any of the researchers. So, like I said, I followed their link to get some actual data or language from any report and got nothing, except the "expert" whom I quoted above, who said to that linkage was not statistically supported.

Again, this is all about "could" and "possibly." We are not even to "probably" yet.

adhoc
March 27th, 2021, 04:25 PM
Every single news outlet in Europe reported on this and you dismiss it and refuse to look it up yourself. Whatever I present, you will find some reason to dismiss it. This is religious-like following I mentioned earlier. You're exactly the same as antivaxers. Nothing that even remotely challenges your religions exists. I'm out, good luck.

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 04:29 PM
Well, you can post a link to the study. Or you can go away.

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 04:37 PM
I have found this, from the EU report on AZ (updated 26 March 2021...yesterday)

>>>"Thrombocytopenia and coagulation disorders
:

A combination of thrombosis and thrombocytopenia, in some cases accompanied by bleeding, has
been observed very rarely following vaccination with Vaxzevria. This includes severe cases presenting
as venous thrombosis, including unusual sites such as cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, mesenteric
vein thrombosis, as well as arterial thrombosis, concomitant with thrombocytopenia. The majority of
these cases occurred within the first seven to fourteen days following vaccination and occurred in women under 55 years of age, however this may reflect the increased use of the vaccine in this population. Some cases had a fatal outcome."<<<

from a link at the bottom of this page: https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/vaxzevria-previously-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 04:40 PM
Notice the word "may" in the concluding lines. In all else, causation in language is avoided.

That's proper scientific professionalism at this point, not "religion" (that's a dumb thing to call the understanding of the difference between possible correlation and causation).

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 04:54 PM
Here's a USA Today fact check on thrombosis claims, dated March 25:

>>>"Vaccines are not known to cause blood clots although there have been cases of immune thrombocytopenia, a rare condition marked by low platelets, following vaccination with Moderna's and Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccines. Whether there is an actual connection is still under investigation and will be closely monitored as vaccination with AstraZeneca's vaccine resumes."<<<

Again, too early to tell, no increase in incidence rate, no clear causation or even correlation yet (since incidence rates are at or below what is found in general population).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/03/25/fact-check-astrazeneca-vaccine-blood-clots-not-definitively-linked/4721828001/

TSherbs
March 27th, 2021, 05:06 PM
I can't find any published article or report through my google searches on this cause or mechanism that Adhoc says is all over the news. There are lots of articles on people who developed clots (especially from two weeks ago), but I can't find anything through my searches for an actual scientific report on "triggers" or causes (nor can I find even an explanatory article naming some scientists who did the work or wrote the explanation).

Since Adhoc is gone, maybe someone else can find something. I would like to read whatever it is (although I can only read English).

lsmith42
March 28th, 2021, 12:47 AM
Well, you can post a link to the study. Or you can go away.

With a tone like that, I kinda think you’re the one that should go away... not the type of response that encourages civil discourse...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TSherbs
March 28th, 2021, 06:49 AM
I was accused of being a pro-vax zealot (which is false), and I was accused of not being interested in making an effort to find the "data" that he/she said was "everywhere" (this too was false, on both counts: I have tried more than once and I can't find "data" anywhere!)

I was simply stating the binary choice system that Adhoc seemed to be operating in (to stay, or go).

So, do you, by any chance, have any info to share on the AZ vax and blood clot possible connection? The article that Adhoc linked to is about a professor who looked at three cases and concluded from this that there must be causal linkage because (1) the patients had no prior symptoms, and (2) the clots were in less typical locations.

I don't find this argument convincing. And this isn't even really an argument on "data". This is speculation. Which was my point from the start. For which I was accused of being a lazy, pro-vax zealot. That's really laughably wrong.

It's really important to get the science around vaccines right. I am trying to get it right, here, and have even asked for help with finding more info.

Do you, by any chance, have any more info on the AZ vax? I am in the middle of two Moderna shots, but there are other members here who could benefit from full and accurate information.

TFarnon
March 28th, 2021, 08:50 AM
Interesting. I can definitely understand how immune thrombocytopenia might be a problem, because many viruses can cause immune thrombocytopenia. I mean the viruses themselves. And just because you have a viral infection does not mean you will have thrombocytopenia. Some HLA haplotypes are associated with greater risk, but HLA haplotypes are a study all unto themselves. Okay, well, anyways. I'm not surprised that some vaccines, particularly vaccines against viruses might have the same effect.

As far as thrombosis goes, the COVID-19 spike protein is implicated in hypercoagulability/thrombosis. However, that's only implicated at this point. It's not confirmed yet, and it could just be random chance. COVID-19 itself is definitely associated with hypercoagulability.

TSherbs
March 28th, 2021, 09:34 AM
Interesting. I can definitely understand how immune thrombocytopenia might be a problem, because many viruses can cause immune thrombocytopenia. I mean the viruses themselves. And just because you have a viral infection does not mean you will have thrombocytopenia. Some HLA haplotypes are associated with greater risk, but HLA haplotypes are a study all unto themselves. Okay, well, anyways. I'm not surprised that some vaccines, particularly vaccines against viruses might have the same effect.

As far as thrombosis goes, the COVID-19 spike protein is implicated in hypercoagulability/thrombosis. However, that's only implicated at this point. It's not confirmed yet, and it could just be random chance. COVID-19 itself is definitely associated with hypercoagulability.

Interesting indeed. And what you have added here matches with the cursory readings I have done on the topic (this is not at all my field).

And good luck with your own pursuits for the vaccine and immunity. I, too, always get the flu vaccine (and others), because when I get sick, I tend to get really sick. And missing work sucks, and I am over 60 years old, and I work in crowds (teacher) etc, etc.

Cookedj
March 28th, 2021, 09:27 PM
I've already had both my COVID shots (Moderna). I was in the Army, and I got all kinds of shots, some of them trials.

My military service experience merely made me extremely blase about other vaccines. I would prefer to never get the injected Typhoid vaccine ever again, because it was the worst of what I've ever had, but if Typhoid was a real concern in my life, I'd put up with it. I still want Anthrax and Rabies shots. I'd also had a lot more vaccinations than usual because my family traveled internationally when I was a child. I've come to regard vaccinations as sort of a hobby--I call it my "Human Pincushion Collection" and consider my yellow shot record booklet analogous to the little notebooks used by trainspotters.

I also worked in research doing molecular biology for 9 years. Part of that work involved making mRNA the same way they do it for the vaccine, except on a much smaller scale. I also used a transfection reagent, Lipofectamine, that is essentially the same as the lipid delivery system used in the vaccine. And yes, I know I got that stuff on my exposed skin from time to time. I'm definitely familiar with and not afraid of the technology involved.

My main reason for getting the COVID vaccine was that I knew it could be worse than influenza. I've had influenza more than once, sometimes because the vaccine wasn't a good match to the circulating strain(s), and sometimes because it was before the era of widespread influenza vaccination. My tangles with influenza have been pretty bad, and I'll do almost anything to avoid it. So, if COVID has the potential to be worse than influenza, the only question was how many people would I knock over in my enthusiasm to be vaccinated. I want no part of feeling as ill as or worse than influenza, not now, not ever.

Typhoid sucked, Gamma globulin freaking hurt, Anthrax just makes your arms hurt, and the rabies is the coolest color ever, but it made me so sick the first day (9 shots in the Base hospital ER). Ironically enough, I am on 20 days quarantine since both my wife and son have Covid.

TSherbs
March 29th, 2021, 05:56 AM
Typhoid sucked, Gamma globulin freaking hurt, Anthrax just makes your arms hurt, and the rabies is the coolest color ever, but it made me so sick the first day (9 shots in the Base hospital ER). Ironically enough, I am on 20 days quarantine since both my wife and son have Covid.

Take care and good luck to you and your family!

adhoc
March 30th, 2021, 04:44 AM
"KEY FACTS
Scientists at Greifswald University Hospital said in a statement Friday that in rare instances, the vaccine has created an antibody that triggered the formation of blood clots in the brain.

The findings confirm those from an independent team in Norway earlier this week.

Isolating the cause has allowed scientists to identify how to treat patients who have developed the blood clots, by giving them intravenous immunoglobulin, which targets the antibody, and blood thinners.

CRUCIAL QUOTE
“Very, very few people will develop this complication,” Professor Andreas Greinacher said in a press conference Friday, according to the Wall Street Journal. “But if it happens, we now know how to treat the patients.”

Easy, bam, done. 1 minute of search. I got the names, the hospital, the research, everything.

There's a slim possibility that there is no causation, but the correlation clearly exists.

No peer reviewed article yet of course, because that takes time and this is new info. As someone who publishes patents and research myself, I know this takes sometimes even years to get published, so just because it's not peer reviewed it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.

Another stupid argument I see repeated is that it happens less than in general population, which is obviously deceitful for anyone that has at least elementary school finished; blood clots are overrepresented within a very specific group; women aged 30-55. Compare this group to general occurence of blood clots in the same group, and scale for observed time and you will see it's over-represented. A single batch caused 3 young, healthy people to die in Italy alone.

But hey, you can cover your eyes, twist the numbers and statistically and technically be correct.

Canada has also banned the AZ vaccine now as well for under 55s: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/canada-to-halt-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-use-for-those-under-55/ar-BB1f7dZL
Although this probably also didn't happen, even if it is reported again everywhere on this planet, I guess.

I'm personally hoping for J&J to pull through, and we're not getting AZ 2nd shot, as our experience (early 30s) was frightening and spent in the emergency room.


Ironically enough, I am on 20 days quarantine since both my wife and son have Covid.

I wish you good luck and all the best to your family. Please also pay attention for several months after getting through it - multiple internal organ failures have been reported in my country especially typical for kids after COVID. Pay attention for skin abnormalities around feet (bruise like markings). This probably also doesn't exist, but our hospitals urged us to pay attention. No peer reviewed article, though, so it never happened. Kids after covid have similiar multiple internal organ failures as general population, so it's normal :-)

https://img.rtvcdn.si/_up/upload/2021/01/20/65857415.jpg

TFarnon
March 30th, 2021, 06:25 AM
I didn't think Gamma globulin (or any other viscous injection in the glutes) hurt. When I did intramuscular depo-provera shots on myself, in the upper thing, they kind of hurt for a couple of hours, but not even so much hurt as the kind of discomfort where you don't want to slam into something with that part of your thigh. Intramuscular depo-provera didn't hurt, intramuscular gamma-globulin (one jab per cheek) didn't hurt. Those people I know who received anthrax shots were all UK scientists, not military. They simply fussed about it because the vaccine cart would come through the labs on a Friday and then by the time the day was over, they didn't feel well enough to head to the pub. Cue tiny violins. Rabies is bright pink or red, right?

If you had post-exposure rabies shots, it was probably the immune globulin usually injected around the bite site (that usually happens in the ER, and usually multiple jabs) that made you feel so awful. It's an artefact of the manufacturing process, because the globulin has to be purified from a lot of rabies-immune donors in order to get enough to have an effect. AS the number of donors for a given biological product like that increase, the chances of your own immune system reacting to the product also increase. It's one of the reason blood suppliers in the United States no longer offer pooled platelets or pooled fresh frozen plasma. In order to get enough cryoprecipitate to do anyone any good, that product still has to be pooled, but from as few (usually 5) donors as possible. Things like anti-rabies immunoglobulin and RhoGam still require a whole lot of donors for one dose, which makes them inherently riskier products that should never be given "just because". That said, an animal bite or bat exposure is not "Just because". Then the risks of rabies far outweigh the risks of (relatively) mild reactions.

If you are young enough, healthy enough, and up for donating/selling your plasma, you might want to look into doing so. It's my understanding that people with a nice rabies titer can sell their plasma for a premium.

I can be reasonably certain that I neither had COVID nor have it at present. I tend to build and retain sturdy immunity to anything I've received as a vaccine, and do the same if I've had the actual disease (e.g. mumps, rubella, chickenpox).

TFarnon
March 30th, 2021, 06:37 AM
I would want to know more about the women aged 30-55 who developed clots after this vaccine was administered. At that point in my life, at least from age 45 to 50, I was on medroxyprogesterone (Depo-Provera) to regulate my reproductive system. The risk of this is that progesterone down-regulates the production of Anti-Thrombin III (AT3), which makes these women inherently more likely to have inappropriate clotting (hypercoagulability). That is true of any woman on any progesterone-containing birth control, whether it's injections, things like Nuvaring, or oral contraceptives. I was lucky that I didn't throw clots while on medroxyprogesterone. And, since I was in a laboratory science training program at the time, I got to see that reduction in AT3 in my own blood first-hand. The results were disturbingly spectacular. I joked that if I were to sever an appendage in an accident, that the wound would have stopped spurting and bleeding before they could even get a tourniquet out to apply it.

So anyways--unless someone already is at risk of hypercoagulability due to genetics, medications or lifestyle choices, the odds of inappropriate coagulation due to a COVID vaccine go down, just as they do overall. I can also tell you, because I see it on a regular basis, that severe COVID is frequently accompanied by hypercoagulability. When I see a sample for platelet mapping (a test that measures platelet function and how those platelets interact with coagulation factors in the blood), if the entry contains certain key terms and comes from certain wards, I automatically expect to see certain features consistent with that hypercoagulability.

I can also tell you that the heel bruising seen there is consistent with Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (DIC). That's also a feature of severe COVID, as well as many other infections, including bacterial sepsis from all kinds of organisms.

Ray-VIgo
March 30th, 2021, 06:47 AM
"KEY FACTS
Scientists at Greifswald University Hospital said in a statement Friday that in rare instances, the vaccine has created an antibody that triggered the formation of blood clots in the brain.

The findings confirm those from an independent team in Norway earlier this week.

Isolating the cause has allowed scientists to identify how to treat patients who have developed the blood clots, by giving them intravenous immunoglobulin, which targets the antibody, and blood thinners.

CRUCIAL QUOTE
“Very, very few people will develop this complication,” Professor Andreas Greinacher said in a press conference Friday, according to the Wall Street Journal. “But if it happens, we now know how to treat the patients.”

Easy, bam, done. 1 minute of search. I got the names, the hospital, the research, everything.

There's a slim possibility that there is no causation, but the correlation clearly exists.

No peer reviewed article yet of course, because that takes time and this is new info. As someone who publishes patents and research myself, I know this takes sometimes even years to get published, so just because it's not peer reviewed it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.

Another stupid argument I see repeated is that it happens less than in general population, which is obviously deceitful for anyone that has at least elementary school finished; blood clots are overrepresented within a very specific group; women aged 30-55. Compare this group to general occurence of blood clots in the same group, and scale for observed time and you will see it's over-represented. A single batch caused 3 young, healthy people to die in Italy alone.

But hey, you can cover your eyes, twist the numbers and statistically and technically be correct.

Canada has also banned the AZ vaccine now as well for under 55s: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/canada-to-halt-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-use-for-those-under-55/ar-BB1f7dZL
Although this probably also didn't happen, even if it is reported again everywhere on this planet, I guess.

I'm personally hoping for J&J to pull through, and we're not getting AZ 2nd shot, as our experience (early 30s) was frightening and spent in the emergency room.


Ironically enough, I am on 20 days quarantine since both my wife and son have Covid.

I wish you good luck and all the best to your family. Please also pay attention for several months after getting through it - multiple internal organ failures have been reported in my country especially typical for kids after COVID. Pay attention for skin abnormalities around feet (bruise like markings). This probably also doesn't exist, but our hospitals urged us to pay attention. No peer reviewed article, though, so it never happened. Kids after covid have similiar multiple internal organ failures as general population, so it's normal :-)

https://img.rtvcdn.si/_up/upload/2021/01/20/65857415.jpg

I am on a waiting list for the J&J vaccine. AZ was not approved here, but given that there are alternatives in this area, I'll go for the alternatives. The odds of developing the issues associated with the AZ are quite small, but it's also not the only game in town.

The issue here is that we're still hurting for supply at the local distribution. They get 200-300 doses per day to give out and are still sending some people home who make appointments because they never have enough. My parents both got their second shots of one of the other vaccines last weekend, and the shortage is still an issue in this area.

The J&J is also in short supply and there is a standing waiting list for people who want that one. The waiting list is a sort of "hobo it" kind of thing - if people with priority don't show up or cancel, then a spot opens up and someone from the wait list goes in. If someone offered the AZ as an alternative, I'd pass and wait awhile longer to get another vaccine. I hope your wife is recovering from the ordeal.

adhoc
March 30th, 2021, 07:30 AM
I would want to know more about the women aged 30-55 who developed clots after this vaccine was administered. At that point in my life, at least from age 45 to 50, I was on medroxyprogesterone (Depo-Provera) to regulate my reproductive system. The risk of this is that progesterone down-regulates the production of Anti-Thrombin III (AT3), which makes these women inherently more likely to have inappropriate clotting (hypercoagulability). That is true of any woman on any progesterone-containing birth control, whether it's injections, things like Nuvaring, or oral contraceptives. I was lucky that I didn't throw clots while on medroxyprogesterone. And, since I was in a laboratory science training program at the time, I got to see that reduction in AT3 in my own blood first-hand. The results were disturbingly spectacular. I joked that if I were to sever an appendage in an accident, that the wound would have stopped spurting and bleeding before they could even get a tourniquet out to apply it.

So anyways--unless someone already is at risk of hypercoagulability due to genetics, medications or lifestyle choices, the odds of inappropriate coagulation due to a COVID vaccine go down, just as they do overall. I can also tell you, because I see it on a regular basis, that severe COVID is frequently accompanied by hypercoagulability. When I see a sample for platelet mapping (a test that measures platelet function and how those platelets interact with coagulation factors in the blood), if the entry contains certain key terms and comes from certain wards, I automatically expect to see certain features consistent with that hypercoagulability.

I can also tell you that the heel bruising seen there is consistent with Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (DIC). That's also a feature of severe COVID, as well as many other infections, including bacterial sepsis from all kinds of organisms.

Yes, that is also what I have read. Our doctors speculate it might be in combination with contraception, which younger women are more likely to take, or that it was improperly administered (stretch the skin, the needle must not go through any veins, ...).

Just to make sure - the picture I shared is side effect common with children after COVID, like you said, NOT the vaccine. I wasn't trying to imply that's after the vaccine.

Cookedj
March 30th, 2021, 10:16 AM
The rabies is a beautiful purple color https://external-preview.redd.it/0mdiuWRacQUsv1uYAZL_0oVIztAjoKRrAMwzWQhzaT0.jpg?wi dth=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&35a2cbaa

TSherbs
March 30th, 2021, 01:05 PM
Adhoc, thanks for the MSN source on the Canada decision. Yes, that decision is all over my feeds, too. That article is listed as from "8 hours" ago (today is March 30 where I am), so that is of course very recent. And the word used by the Canadian official in that article is "pause," not "ban" (if we are trying to be accurate with both denotation and connotation).

But what are your first quotes from? You don't name or list that source. I am interested in reading the entire article to learn more.

TSherbs
March 30th, 2021, 02:42 PM
But what are your first quotes from? You don't name or list that source. I am interested in reading the entire article to learn more.

My search using your quoted material comes up with, basically, a list of articles all based on a single WSJ article with original reporting. This article includes nothing more about this "mechanism," which they claim "must be" the mechanism involved. It's that part of the argument that I am most interested in: the "must be." I have yet to read any other institution or immuno-biologist stating a "must be" position about these few (very rare) cases. Clearly, the vax is somewhat implicated (correlation). No one has denied this.

Here is the language of the article, up to the paywall, where I can no longer read it:

>>>"BERLIN—Scientists in Europe said they had identified a mechanism that could lead the AstraZeneca PLC vaccine to cause potentially deadly blood clots in rare instances as well as a possible treatment for it.

Two teams of medical researchers in Norway and Germany have independently found that the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune reaction causing blood to clot in the brain, which would offer an explanation for isolated incidents across Europe in recent weeks.

Several European countries briefly halted their rollouts of the vaccine this week after more than 30 recipients were diagnosed with the condition known as cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, or CVST. Most of the people affected were women under the age of 55.

The issue affected a tiny portion of those who had received the shot, however, and after investigating, the European drugs regulator ruled that the benefits outweighed the potential risks of the vaccine, and recommended vaccinations resume.

Some countries, such as Germany, France and Italy, resumed..."<<<

Notice the inclusion of the "coulds" in the language of the reporting. Yes, the professor states this as a "must be" in another article, but this reporting won't go that far into definitive causation. Which, has been my point all along, about professional understandings between causation and correlation.

Here is an NPR article that gets more to the matter of "certainty" on this:

>>>>Greinacher and his colleagues analyzed the 13 cases of cerebral blood clots reported in Germany following the administration of roughly 1.6 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in that country. Of the 13 cases, 12 were women, and all the cases occurred between four and 16 days after the shot was administered. The EMA had also noted that almost all the reported clotting incidents were in women under the age of 55.

Greinacher and his colleagues say that in four of the patients, they were able to isolate and identify the specific antibodies that provoke the immune reaction leading to the cerebral blood clots.

While Greinacher and his colleagues were studying the cases in Germany, researchers at the Oslo University Hospital were investigating three post-vaccination blood clots in Norway. All the Norwegian cases were health care workers under the age of 50. One of them has since died.

Professor Pål Andre Holme told the Norwegian newspaper VG that he's confident they've identified antibodies prompted by the vaccine that caused an overreaction by the immune system leading to the blood clots.

"Our theory that this is a strong immune response that most likely comes after the vaccine," Holme said. It's the same theory that Greinacher and his colleagues have put forward in Germany.

"There is no other thing than the vaccine that can explain this immune response," he said.

Pushed by the local newspaper as to why he's so confident, Holme added that there's "no other history in these patients that can give such a strong immune response. I'm pretty sure it's these antibodies that's the cause, and I see no other reason than that it's the vaccine that triggers it."

Not everyone, including the European Medicines Agency, is convinced that the cause of these clots has been found.

On Friday, the EMA said that there is "no increase in overall risk of blood clots" among people who've gotten the AstraZeneca vaccine. The European regulator said it had reports of 25 clots so far among the roughly 20 million people who've received the AstraZeneca shot. The EMA, however, didn't rule out a possible connection entirely. "A causal link with the vaccine is not proven," the EMA said in a statement, "but is possible and deserves further analysis."<<<<

from: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/03/21/979781065/european-scientists-zero-in-on-astrazeneca-blood-clot-link

TSherbs
March 30th, 2021, 02:44 PM
For those interested, this, apparently, is the original report in German (which I cannot read): https://gth-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/GTH_Stellungnahme_AstraZeneca_3_19032021-3.pdf

adhoc
March 30th, 2021, 03:05 PM
I don't listen to religious fanatics, so I'm not reading this insane wall of text.

Germany has now also blocked AZ for under 60s due to the amount of unexplained brain blood clots in young women after vaccination. Religious zealotry says it's a coincidence, the scientists around the world say it's not. Hmmm decisions, decisions, who to trust?

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/German-state-suspends-AstraZeneca-vaccine-use-for-16063052.php

(And every other media, just Google it, it's literally everywhere)

In summary, AZ vaccine is almost completely inefficient for over 65s and kills under 55-60s (I'm sorry, it's just a coincidence, 30 something women have brain hemorrhage after the shot incidentally all the time, just a coincidence, nothing else). Who is this thing for anyway?
I'm waiting for other vaccines to become available for myself and my family.

TSherbs
March 30th, 2021, 05:08 PM
Adhoc, your persisting level of sneer is unusual. Not sure what is up with that.

And you are of course free to take or not take any vaccine of your choice. We wish you and your family good health!

dneal
March 30th, 2021, 06:36 PM
For those interested, this, apparently, is the original report in German (which I cannot read): https://gth-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/GTH_Stellungnahme_AstraZeneca_3_19032021-3.pdf

It's dated 19 March 2021 and says Germany resumed administering the AZ vaccine. Of 1.6M doses, there were 13 cases of sinus or cerebral thrombosis - 12 of which were women - and they occurred 4-16 days after administration. The rest is just a bullet point list of benefits and side effects (sore arm, fever, chills, etc...)

That said, adhoc is correct that it is now being reported that Germany has suspended the use for those under 60. One of many articles (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/germany-has-suspended-the-use-of-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-for-anyone-under-60/ar-BB1f8slt?ocid=msedgntp).

adhoc
March 31st, 2021, 03:56 AM
Adhoc, your persisting level of sneer is unusual. Not sure what is up with that.

Because I have never encountered someone so clearly intelligent as you that is also so stubborn in his beliefs and refuses to budge plainly on technicalities. It makes me irrationally mad and I can't help myself. If you were at least an idiot, I could have easily ignored you. I wish you and yours good health as well, of course.

Proofs, especially in medicine, are extremely hard to achieve and take time and huge sample sizes. As anyone in science, you can never discuss things in definitive language unless you have absolute proof to back it up. I am personally accountable by law if I say things I can not prove even on social media (and so are the doctors - we dragged one to court over bullshit claims about vaccines making women infertile), because of my connection to the institute I work for. But I would never publically even speculate something without already being pretty damn sure about it. Medicine also has the disadvantage of not being a hard science such as my background, maths/physics/engineering, so that complicates things even further. This is also a highly politicized topic, saying anything from a position of authority can backfire easily.

Comparing a specific group of people to general populace is deceiving. Like average wage statistics, it gives false impressions.

Confirmed papers are nice and dandy, but I can from first hand testify that we have already started selling the product I made and it took over 2 years before the patents and research pertaining the innovation were fully published. Clearly, it existed before that already.

And worst of all - I'm confident you're aware of all of this.

grainweevil
March 31st, 2021, 04:23 AM
Many things float into my brain about all this, some of which are:

1. If you pause the vaccine use owing to the data (slightly increased rate of CVST in women under 60) then why stop men under 60 having it?
2. Saying the rate has gone up to 1 in 100,000 based solely on the data of one country and not on all the doses of AZ given worldwide is, I would have thought, questionable science.
3. Given how many more doses of AZ have been given in the UK (of which I am one, and in that problematic group no less) how come we don't seem to be reporting proportionally increased rates of CVST?
4. Just what is the data on how many of the afflicted were on contraception, which are known to increase the risk of blood clots (I've looked, but can't find).
5. This is an emergency situation, not a vaccine introduction for something for which we as a species already have a certain level of immunity, so is it the right course to halt use until investigations are complete as we would do in less critical times, or rather investigate whilst still administering? Aside from the damage done to vaccine confidence by so pausing.
6. Given that the AZ vaccine is substantially less expensive than its competitors, are we to believe that Pfizer, Moderna, and co. are all sitting on their hands and not working their socks off making very sure that the media get the "right" story about their cheaper competitor. The actual numbers here are tiny compared to the likely chance of problems if Covid-19 gets you, and yet the coverage has been intense. Try finding data on blood clots and problems with the other vaccines (and there are some) and you have to dig through mounds of hits on AZ first. Politicians, of course, are above being influenced by drug companies*, but certainly not public opinion. And health bodies are not immune from pressure from politicians, owing to naturally wishing to retain their jobs and funding.

I'm not looking for discussion, argument, demands for scientifically peer-reviewed reports, or personal insults. These are merely some of the questions that have popped into my non-scientific head, and I share them in case others' grey matter might wish to mull them over too.

* A soupçon of sarcasm may have crept in there... ;)

TSherbs
March 31st, 2021, 04:59 AM
...And worst of all - I'm confident you're aware of all of this.

Yes, I am aware and agree with all the rest of what you posted with this.

All I did was suggest that you qualify the word "effect" with something like *possible*, but you dug in and began suggesting that I wasn't reading enough and was being lazy and dishonest. Turns out, from this post just above, that both you and that professor/doctor who first spoke up about his three patients also used qualifying language.

I am both genuinely concerned about and interested in the efficacy and safety of all these vaccines. But I also am concerned about the influence of language and misinformation on various social media platforms, even this little corner of the internet.

TSherbs
March 31st, 2021, 04:59 AM
Many things float into my brain about all this, some of which are:

1. If you pause the vaccine use owing to the data (slightly increased rate of CVST in women under 60) then why stop men under 60 having it?
2. Saying the rate has gone up to 1 in 100,000 based solely on the data of one country and not on all the doses of AZ given worldwide is, I would have thought, questionable science.
3. Given how many more doses of AZ have been given in the UK (of which I am one, and in that problematic group no less) how come we don't seem to be reporting proportionally increased rates of CVST?
4. Just what is the data on how many of the afflicted were on contraception, which are known to increase the risk of blood clots (I've looked, but can't find).
5. This is an emergency situation, not a vaccine introduction for something for which we as a species already have a certain level of immunity, so is it the right course to halt use until investigations are complete as we would do in less critical times, or rather investigate whilst still administering? Aside from the damage done to vaccine confidence by so pausing.
6. Given that the AZ vaccine is substantially less expensive than its competitors, are we to believe that Pfizer, Moderna, and co. are all sitting on their hands and not working their socks off making very sure that the media get the "right" story about their cheaper competitor. The actual numbers here are tiny compared to the likely chance of problems if Covid-19 gets you, and yet the coverage has been intense. Try finding data on blood clots and problems with the other vaccines (and there are some) and you have to dig through mounds of hits on AZ first. Politicians, of course, are above being influenced by drug companies*, but certainly not public opinion. And health bodies are not immune from pressure from politicians, owing to naturally wishing to retain their jobs and funding.

I'm not looking for discussion, argument, demands for scientifically peer-reviewed reports, or personal insults. These are merely some of the questions that have popped into my non-scientific head, and I share them in case others' grey matter might wish to mull them over too.

* A soupçon of sarcasm may have crept in there... ;)

These are great questions.

adhoc
March 31st, 2021, 08:41 AM
Many things float into my brain about all this, some of which are:

1. If you pause the vaccine use owing to the data (slightly increased rate of CVST in women under 60) then why stop men under 60 having it?
2. Saying the rate has gone up to 1 in 100,000 based solely on the data of one country and not on all the doses of AZ given worldwide is, I would have thought, questionable science.
3. Given how many more doses of AZ have been given in the UK (of which I am one, and in that problematic group no less) how come we don't seem to be reporting proportionally increased rates of CVST?
4. Just what is the data on how many of the afflicted were on contraception, which are known to increase the risk of blood clots (I've looked, but can't find).
5. This is an emergency situation, not a vaccine introduction for something for which we as a species already have a certain level of immunity, so is it the right course to halt use until investigations are complete as we would do in less critical times, or rather investigate whilst still administering? Aside from the damage done to vaccine confidence by so pausing.
6. Given that the AZ vaccine is substantially less expensive than its competitors, are we to believe that Pfizer, Moderna, and co. are all sitting on their hands and not working their socks off making very sure that the media get the "right" story about their cheaper competitor. The actual numbers here are tiny compared to the likely chance of problems if Covid-19 gets you, and yet the coverage has been intense. Try finding data on blood clots and problems with the other vaccines (and there are some) and you have to dig through mounds of hits on AZ first. Politicians, of course, are above being influenced by drug companies*, but certainly not public opinion. And health bodies are not immune from pressure from politicians, owing to naturally wishing to retain their jobs and funding.

I'm not looking for discussion, argument, demands for scientifically peer-reviewed reports, or personal insults. These are merely some of the questions that have popped into my non-scientific head, and I share them in case others' grey matter might wish to mull them over too.

* A soupçon of sarcasm may have crept in there... ;)

Again, comparing a small group of people to larger populace is deceitful, for obvious reasons.
You didn't ask for a published paper, but I will give you one anyway. Not yet peer reviewed due to time constraints.

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-362354/v1

"Conclusions. The AZD1222 vaccine is associated with development of a prothrombotic disorder that clinically resembles heparin-induced thrombocytopenia but which shows a different serological profile."

Currently, cerebral venous sinus thrombosis occurs at 800-1000% of the expected rate after vaccination for a specific group. If you think this is coincidental, then I don't know what to tell you.

I was also very skeptical not more than a week or two ago, and wrote this off as shenanigans due to Brexit. Vaccines are obviously a huge political topic.

TSherbs
March 31st, 2021, 02:27 PM
[

Currently, cerebral venous sinus thrombosis occurs at 800-1000% of the expected rate after vaccination for a specific group.

Thank you for the link above. I read it all. These numbers and percents are not any where in it. Where are these numbers from? This kind of percent change sounds like moving from one case to, say, nine. What are the raw numbers of the numerator and denominator? This report is nothing about trying to determine its frequency in the population, nor is it a warning against taking the AZ vaccine. It is a suggestion for treatment of conditions if they occur.

By the way, the language of the report you posted here says that a link is "suggested" and that the resulting condition appears "associated." They do not say proven, definitive, clear. Everyone here is agreeing that a causal link is possible. You keep wanting to criticize people here; I don't know why.

TSherbs
March 31st, 2021, 05:35 PM
Here is a summary of the AZ situation in Europe witten by an AP reporter (from today, 31 March)

https://apnews.com/article/what-do-we-know-astrazeneca-vaccine-blood-cots-reports-3ce214ebf3b4a3167e44d114646faa2d

Not much new (in the science); 31 total cases reported (same number I read a few days back).

adhoc
April 2nd, 2021, 04:41 AM
UK also admitted to finding blood clots cases after vaccination today, ruling out the EU conspiracy against UK theory. They were just hiding them. They admitted to as many cases as rest of EU combined now!

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2BO6XH

TSherbs - the 8-10x number came from my educated guess based on the data I could find and extrapolations based from that. That's why it's not an accurate number.

grainweevil
April 2nd, 2021, 07:00 AM
adhoc, you've had a personal scare with your wife, and you're naturally now dead against the AZ vaccine. I understand that. But please try and dial down the hyperbole. No-one's been "hiding" figures; they couldn't count what wasn't there.

Anyway, I looked for some further details (that report is a little brief!), and apparently that's as of March 24th and it's 30 cases in 18.1 million doses, which is around 1 in 600,000, or less than 2 cases per million people.

adhoc
April 2nd, 2021, 07:10 AM
Baseline for blood clots in UK is 6.4-19.1 per million per year, depending on age group, scaled to observed time that is 0.22-0.68 per million. 2 cases per million is 294-900% increase, with upper margin representing younger women.

These are the numbers, these are the facts. This has nothing to do with my personal experience.

grainweevil
April 2nd, 2021, 07:51 AM
Talking about percentage increases in the context of single digits makes for exciting numbers, doesn't it? They all get into big percentages ever-so quickly.

adhoc
April 2nd, 2021, 07:55 AM
So now that you're proven wrong, it doesn't matter anymore?

Women aged 34-55 are 9x more likely to die from CVST 2 weeks after being vaccinated with AZ, than otherwise. There, percentage dropped, sounds better? This is the same ratio as chances for lung cancer between smokers and non smokers for crying out loud.

lsmith42
April 2nd, 2021, 10:39 AM
Anyone seen my banhammer??? I used it on myself not too long ago...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

grainweevil
April 2nd, 2021, 11:57 AM
Should I duck? :D

I do wish you'd stop editing your messages, adhoc - I get an alert for one thing and then come on here to find altogether something else. Then it got edited again - just as well, as I was a little upset.


So now that you're proven wrong, it doesn't matter anymore?
It's good for the character to be proved wrong. Could we establish what "right" you believe I've been advocating so I don't improve mine under false pretences?

Incidentally, I found an interesting paper here (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jth.14210). Under "Risk Factors" it says young women are more likely to suffer CVST anyway. Not sure whether your baseline numbers reflected that. You also seem to be turning "cases" into "deaths", by the way, which is a bit misleading.

Meanwhile, lest we forget, lots of people are getting infected as we speak. Each one a walking, talking, mobile laboratory, anyone of whom could generate a mutation of this damn virus that's even worse than the ones we already have. Seems to me an important question to ask ourselves is just how cautious can we afford to be?

Brilliant Bill
April 2nd, 2021, 02:01 PM
I'm 75, fat and happy. Plan to keep it that way. After six weeks wait, I finally have an appointment to get shot next week. Prefer the one & done if it's a choice.

Funny, when young it was different. In Vietnam they gave us these huge yellow pills -- against malaria, they said. I'm guessing it was hydroxychloroquine. I don't know anyone who actually took them -- we threw them away, it was like a bad joke!

adhoc
April 2nd, 2021, 02:08 PM
I do wish you'd stop editing your messages, adhoc - I get an alert for one thing and then come on here to find altogether something else. Then it got edited again - just as well, as I was a little upset.

Don't be. Even if I'm a pain in the ass in this thread, I can be a nice guy, I promise.


Under "Risk Factors" it says young women are more likely to suffer CVST anyway. Not sure whether your baseline numbers reflected that. You also seem to be turning "cases" into "deaths", by the way, which is a bit misleading.

Meanwhile, lest we forget, lots of people are getting infected as we speak. Each one a walking, talking, mobile laboratory, anyone of whom could generate a mutation of this damn virus that's even worse than the ones we already have. Seems to me an important question to ask ourselves is just how cautious can we afford to be?

Yes, my numbers reflected exactly that.

There are other vaccines - safer AND more effective - on the market than AZ. It's not a choice between covid infection and AZ vaccine.

Cases indeed don't equal dead, but cvst can frequently leave people practically brain dead or having to relearn everything, including their own native language. This is a serious illness. But even then, I'm only including the rarest and deadliest cases; in UK alone, nearly 300 more common blood clots were observed in young women after vaccination alone. If anything, I have been very cautious and conservative with the numbers speaking negatively of AZ vaccine.


I'm 75, fat and happy.

Excellent, congrats. My life goal is being old, fat, and happy. Baking Christmas cookies with my grandchildren.

grainweevil
April 2nd, 2021, 03:45 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56594189

You will no doubt pick the bits you like. I see several don't knows (don't think you'll like those) and some figures that seem to adequately indicate where the more serious illness still is.

But I've wasted enough time on this now and you won't be a sport and tell my how to improve my character, so I am done. ;)

TSherbs
April 2nd, 2021, 04:44 PM
Anyone seen my banhammer??? I used it on myself not too long ago...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha
Word

TSherbs
April 2nd, 2021, 05:42 PM
Women aged 34-55 are 9x more likely to die from CVST 2 weeks after being vaccinated with AZ, than otherwise.

That's not accurate. No one has determined "who is more likely to die."

There appears to be increased risk, yes.

Farmboy
April 2nd, 2021, 11:04 PM
I wonder if any of the authors of these reports and papers used a pencil to write the first draft.

adhoc
April 3rd, 2021, 02:34 AM
Women aged 34-55 are 9x more likely to die from CVST 2 weeks after being vaccinated with AZ, than otherwise.

That's not accurate. No one has determined "who is more likely to die."

There appears to be increased risk, yes.

You are right, sorry, my mistake. The numbers represent increased risk for cvst, not death.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56594189

You will no doubt pick the bits you like. I see several don't knows (don't think you'll like those) and some figures that seem to adequately indicate where the more serious illness still is.

But I've wasted enough time on this now and you won't be a sport and tell my how to improve my character, so I am done. ;)

I see no reason why this would be the definitive source, when I have clearly linked here actual scientific studies (pre peer review) that contradict this journalists opinion.

As for the character - I'm sorry, and I really don't mean this in a bad way, but I really don't understand what you mean or what I am supposed to say. I like numbers, that's all really. I don't even know what makes you think you lack "character" (I don't even know what this means).

adhoc
April 3rd, 2021, 05:04 AM
Are you implying medication that's now banned in half of Europe and Canada has no clinically significant side effects?

Also, I don't think one should be really familiar with the two if one likes numbers. It has nothing to do with numbers, just a different conclusion, based on arbitrarily set human made conditions. The numbers stay the same.

Anyway, I just wanted to show that there indeed is a connection and I think I established that. I'm tired of this thread and it has gone on longer from my side than it should have anyway.

TSherbs
April 3rd, 2021, 08:22 AM
Also, I don't think one should be really familiar with the two if one likes numbers. It has nothing to do with numbers, just a different conclusion, based on arbitrarily set human made conditions.

Conclusions (the thinking and decision-making parts) matter a lot. And some clinical conclusions are more valid and accurate than others.
.

TFarnon
April 3rd, 2021, 09:01 AM
Could actually have been hydroxychloroquine. We were given hydroxychloroquine tablets in the Gulf in 1991. They weren't huge or yellow. But I did take them. They told us to take them with meals, and I learned why when I didn't feel like eating one evening. Instant colonoscopy prep. I do mean instant. One explosion and done. But the reason I stayed on them was that for the first time in my life, I didn't have acne. My complexion was gorgeous on the stuff. Too bad that there are all kinds of other icky side effects like bone marrow suppression with long-term use.

Igraine
April 4th, 2021, 08:06 AM
I have been very skeptical of this vaccine from day one. It’s not mandatory for medical workers, but I’m sure it will be eventually, and I’m still not sure what I will do. I’ve been exposed to covid from the beginning. The first people to get it at my work were people I took care of, and I was around 6 of them, without even wearing a mask, in the same time period they tested positive. Several of my coworkers, who worked the same station as myself, used the same computers, phones, etc, tested positive. There was a whole week in March where I had a runny nose and headache, but I never got really sick, and they hadn’t started testing us yet, so not sure if that was my covid experience or not. Probably it was, as I never get headaches....but I think I would rather rely on my own immune system than this vaccine. It seems to have served me well so far.

Interesting to think, it’s been 25 or 30 years they have been working on an HIV vaccine with no luck. Same with hepatitis. The flu shot, after decades of research, is still maybe only 50% effective in any given year....but I’m supposed to believe that they came up with a vaccine for covid 19 in just a few months?

TSherbs
April 4th, 2021, 09:41 AM
I have been very skeptical of this vaccine from day one. It’s not mandatory for medical workers, but I’m sure it will be eventually, and I’m still not sure what I will do. I’ve been exposed to covid from the beginning. The first people to get it at my work were people I took care of, and I was around 6 of them, without even wearing a mask, in the same time period they tested positive. Several of my coworkers, who worked the same station as myself, used the same computers, phones, etc, tested positive. There was a whole week in March where I had a runny nose and headache, but I never got really sick, and they hadn’t started testing us yet, so not sure if that was my covid experience or not. Probably it was, as I never get headaches....but I think I would rather rely on my own immune system than this vaccine. It seems to have served me well so far.

Interesting to think, it’s been 25 or 30 years they have been working on an HIV vaccine with no luck. Same with hepatitis. The flu shot, after decades of research, is still maybe only 50% effective in any given year....but I’m supposed to believe that they came up with a vaccine for covid 19 in just a few months?

Skeptical of what aspect? That it has efficacy? Have you ever been immunized for anything? And are you aware of how these vaccines have been developed versus the old process of using eggs for the flu vaccine in the past? Are you aware of the former guessing game of trying to figure out, months in advance, which common flu strains would likely be the ones to rise and spread around the world? This is all different now with the targeting and development of the COVID-19 vaccines.

TFarnon
April 4th, 2021, 10:22 AM
As a professional lab rat, I just want to shriek. Some of my coworkers "just" got horribly ill. A phlebotomist at another hospital, someone who I knew by name even if I wasn't close to him, died. Some of the employees at my hospital spent weeks in the ICU. And that's not counting the patients. Some of the patients died. Some of them died after a long and horrific stay in the hospital. It wasn't the hospital that made their stay horrific. It was the disease itself. That said, I haven't tested positive for the disease myself, in spite of a respiratory/gastrointestinal virus with nearly identical symptoms (probably an enterovirus). I tested negative by swab/PCR both times. I tested negative on the antibody (blood) test. However, I have a robust immune system, and have been exposed to more respiratory viruses than the average person.

Okay, I also think your skepticism about influenza vaccine is unfounded. I don't come down with influenza if I get the vaccine and the vaccine is a good match for the strains in circulation. That said, my most recent tangle with influenza was in one of the years when the vaccine wasn't a good match. Still, considering some of the charts I skimmed in order to anticipate transfusion needs, I think that the combination of tamiflu and a less-effective vaccine probably saved my life. What little I read still makes me shudder when I think about it. In another year (2009-2009), my own clinical microbiology instructor told me that I didn't need the extra H1N1 vaccine, because we were of an age and had already been exposed to similar H1N1 strains. I got the shot anyways. She didn't. She ended up hospitalized from that H1N1 strain. We shared enough exposures for me to have been infected had I not gotten the vaccine. 50% or not, I'll take 50% if it will keep me out of the hospital and alive.

I rely on a well-primed and trained immune system, with every vaccination that has been reasonable to obtained. As for the COVID-19 vaccine, the methodology and the components of that vaccine have been known and in use for other (research) purposes for over 20 years now. I used to make mRNA for electrophysiology studies, and I used to use a lipid delivery system to get it into cells for those experiments. The only thing that is really new is the use of these things as vaccines injected into human beings.

You are wrong about hepatitis: there are vaccines for Hepatitis B and Hepatitis A. There isn't a vaccine for Hepatitis C yet. I know. I'm picky. I'm paid to be picky, and it just happens to fit with who I am.

But in the end, I'll take my chances with a vaccine, thank you very much. It doesn't mean I can run around licking walls or humans. It doesn't mean I shouldn't wash my hands frequently and appropriately. But I'll still get the vaccine(s).

TFarnon
April 4th, 2021, 10:33 AM
I did some reading on the particular kind of stroke seen a small number of patients who were given the Astra Zeneca vaccine. I found this page from Johns Hopkins: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/cerebral-venous-sinus-thrombosis And there I found several things that align with my speculation on the phenomenon. I'd speculated, based on the disproportionate number of women in a specific age group who have been sickened or died from CVST after vaccination, that this was due to one or more factors involved in hypercoagulability: genetic disorders, gonadal hormone down-regulation of AT3 production (e.g. birth control pills, pregnancy), iron deficiency anemia (which can lead to reactive thrombocytosis), lupus, antiphospholipid syndrome, obesity and the accompanying risks of inflammation and hyperfibrinogenemia...there are many causes of hypercoagulability, and it would seem that they are all risk factors for CVST. What's more, women of childbearing age are disproportionately affected by them. I won't go so far as to say absolutely that the Astra-Zeneca vaccine isn't to blame. It would appear that anyone who has another disorder that either results in hypercoagulability or a risk of hypercoagulability should, if at all possible, get a different vaccine.

And should the Astra-Zeneca be the only vaccine available, then the risks of the vaccine are still apparently less than the risk of severe COVID.

TSherbs
April 4th, 2021, 03:03 PM
TFarnon, I appreciate your posts: measured, detailed, informed. Thank you.

Brilliant Bill
April 4th, 2021, 06:36 PM
Thanks for shrieking for me.

So fascinating for me to compare my own experience from long ago. Today, people seem to think protecting themselves and others from a deadly disease is a personal decision they can forego if they decide to, based on whatever. They may have good information, bad information or no information. Some respond childishly with a simple, "you can't make me." I recall standing in line to get the polio vaccine in the 1950s. We saw it literally as a miracle -- the scourge of polio was over!! There was NO ONE who resisted this; you would have been viewed as mad to claim it would be better not to get vaccinated. There became a litany of vaccinations a child needed to enroll in schools, public or private. No one saw this as anything but socially responsible behavior. Somehow we have come to a place in this world where opinions, even totally unfounded ones are seen as the equivalent of scientific fact.

Just FYI, there are two sources I've found valuable through this pandemic. You may or may not find them helpful, but I see them as credible and reliable; hence they've been useful to me.

First is an English medical educator, Dr. John Campbell. He is a nurse and spent a lot of years training nurses. He can get a bit pedantic in his daily vids, but that's not necessarily a bad thing:


https://youtu.be/WnyVInblipE

The other is a medical doctor who is a pulmonary specialist and has worked a lot of patients with Covid19. He seems very careful not to ever say anything unfounded, and I've never seen him say anything I could find disagreement with. His shortcoming, if you want to call it that, is that he can get too technical for general viewing. I struggle a bit with is explanations, but he obviously knows his stuff:


https://youtu.be/20NgO6dLMLo




As a professional lab rat, I just want to shriek. Some of my coworkers "just" got horribly ill. A phlebotomist at another hospital, someone who I knew by name even if I wasn't close to him, died. Some of the employees at my hospital spent weeks in the ICU. And that's not counting the patients. Some of the patients died. Some of them died after a long and horrific stay in the hospital. It wasn't the hospital that made their stay horrific. It was the disease itself. That said, I haven't tested positive for the disease myself, in spite of a respiratory/gastrointestinal virus with nearly identical symptoms (probably an enterovirus). I tested negative by swab/PCR both times. I tested negative on the antibody (blood) test. However, I have a robust immune system, and have been exposed to more respiratory viruses than the average person.

Okay, I also think your skepticism about influenza vaccine is unfounded. I don't come down with influenza if I get the vaccine and the vaccine is a good match for the strains in circulation. That said, my most recent tangle with influenza was in one of the years when the vaccine wasn't a good match. Still, considering some of the charts I skimmed in order to anticipate transfusion needs, I think that the combination of tamiflu and a less-effective vaccine probably saved my life. What little I read still makes me shudder when I think about it. In another year (2009-2009), my own clinical microbiology instructor told me that I didn't need the extra H1N1 vaccine, because we were of an age and had already been exposed to similar H1N1 strains. I got the shot anyways. She didn't. She ended up hospitalized from that H1N1 strain. We shared enough exposures for me to have been infected had I not gotten the vaccine. 50% or not, I'll take 50% if it will keep me out of the hospital and alive.

I rely on a well-primed and trained immune system, with every vaccination that has been reasonable to obtained. As for the COVID-19 vaccine, the methodology and the components of that vaccine have been known and in use for other (research) purposes for over 20 years now. I used to make mRNA for electrophysiology studies, and I used to use a lipid delivery system to get it into cells for those experiments. The only thing that is really new is the use of these things as vaccines injected into human beings.

You are wrong about hepatitis: there are vaccines for Hepatitis B and Hepatitis A. There isn't a vaccine for Hepatitis C yet. I know. I'm picky. I'm paid to be picky, and it just happens to fit with who I am.

But in the end, I'll take my chances with a vaccine, thank you very much. It doesn't mean I can run around licking walls or humans. It doesn't mean I shouldn't wash my hands frequently and appropriately. But I'll still get the vaccine(s).

Cookedj
April 5th, 2021, 06:49 AM
Funny, when young it was different. In Vietnam they gave us these huge yellow pills -- against malaria, they said. I'm guessing it was hydroxychloroquine. I don't know anyone who actually took them -- we threw them away, it was like a bad joke!

This is interesting. I have heard whispers etc that the military members that took the malaria pills will have a lower rate of COVID, or even minimal effects. As I'm sitting here with my very minimal side effects, I wonder if there's any truth to it? Pure speculation, no actual studies or science. Just a bunch of old vets talking crap.

dneal
April 5th, 2021, 09:57 AM
As a professional lab rat, I just want to shriek. Some of my coworkers "just" got horribly ill. A phlebotomist at another hospital, someone who I knew by name even if I wasn't close to him, died. Some of the employees at my hospital spent weeks in the ICU. And that's not counting the patients. Some of the patients died. Some of them died after a long and horrific stay in the hospital. It wasn't the hospital that made their stay horrific. It was the disease itself. That said, I haven't tested positive for the disease myself, in spite of a respiratory/gastrointestinal virus with nearly identical symptoms (probably an enterovirus). I tested negative by swab/PCR both times. I tested negative on the antibody (blood) test. However, I have a robust immune system, and have been exposed to more respiratory viruses than the average person.

Okay, I also think your skepticism about influenza vaccine is unfounded. I don't come down with influenza if I get the vaccine and the vaccine is a good match for the strains in circulation. That said, my most recent tangle with influenza was in one of the years when the vaccine wasn't a good match. Still, considering some of the charts I skimmed in order to anticipate transfusion needs, I think that the combination of tamiflu and a less-effective vaccine probably saved my life. What little I read still makes me shudder when I think about it. In another year (2009-2009), my own clinical microbiology instructor told me that I didn't need the extra H1N1 vaccine, because we were of an age and had already been exposed to similar H1N1 strains. I got the shot anyways. She didn't. She ended up hospitalized from that H1N1 strain. We shared enough exposures for me to have been infected had I not gotten the vaccine. 50% or not, I'll take 50% if it will keep me out of the hospital and alive.

I rely on a well-primed and trained immune system, with every vaccination that has been reasonable to obtained. As for the COVID-19 vaccine, the methodology and the components of that vaccine have been known and in use for other (research) purposes for over 20 years now. I used to make mRNA for electrophysiology studies, and I used to use a lipid delivery system to get it into cells for those experiments. The only thing that is really new is the use of these things as vaccines injected into human beings.

You are wrong about hepatitis: there are vaccines for Hepatitis B and Hepatitis A. There isn't a vaccine for Hepatitis C yet. I know. I'm picky. I'm paid to be picky, and it just happens to fit with who I am.

But in the end, I'll take my chances with a vaccine, thank you very much. It doesn't mean I can run around licking walls or humans. It doesn't mean I shouldn't wash my hands frequently and appropriately. But I'll still get the vaccine(s).

I would think a "professional lab rat" wouldn't be relying on anecdotal evidence.

My 77 year old mother survived with a week of "feeling puny". Her 78 year old husband laid in bed and watched TV for 3 days, and went golfing on day 4. My 75 year old uncle - overweight, high blood pressure, borderline diabetic, and has had two minor strokes - felt bad for about a week.

Should I generalize from their experiences?

TSherbs
April 5th, 2021, 04:46 PM
Bill, that second video--although a bit outdated (prior to J&J approval)--is particularly useful. I appreciate how he summarized the mechanism of that vax and the test results (including the interesting placebo info). I get my second Moderna vax later this week, but I sure would get the J&J if that had been offered to me.

Chuck Naill
April 6th, 2021, 04:28 AM
Bill, that second video--although a bit outdated (prior to J&J approval)--is particularly useful. I appreciate how he summarized the mechanism of that vax and the test results (including the interesting placebo info). I get my second Moderna vax later this week, but I sure would get the J&J if that had been offered to me.

I am glad I had the opportunity to obtain the Moderna vaccine two shot type. Perhaps I am just hardwired to think of the MMR and other two shot type as better.

adhoc
April 6th, 2021, 07:14 AM
EMA has now confirmed there is a link between AZ vaccine and blood clots in the brain. They still advise the vaccine, because of the rarity of occurrence.

https://www.politico.eu/article/astrazeneca-vaccine-linked-to-rare-blood-clots-says-ema-official/

One week ago no-one believed me, as of now it is a fact. Conclusions are not up to me (as some implied), everyone can make up their own mind if they still want this vaccine or not, I just wanted to point out the numbers did not add up, regardless of how many people screeched it's "the same as in general population" at me (or wanted me banned simply for stating facts).

TFarnon
April 6th, 2021, 09:27 AM
I wouldn't say that I *didn't* believe you. But at the time, the analysis wasn't complete. And, as I posted, my preliminary thoughts on avoiding the AZ vaccine in favor of other vaccines still hold. The last I saw, there were tentative recommendations to use a vaccine other than the AZ vaccine in those individuals at particularly high risk of hypercoagulability, including women on hormonal contraceptives, women who are or were recently pregnant, people with certain hypercoagulability disorders like antiphospholipid syndrome, Factor V Leyden, AT3 deficiency and others, and people in certain stages of cirrhosis, especially alcoholic cirrhosis. People with ET (Essential Thrombocytosis) and iron deficiency anemia (especially if reactive thrombocytosis is already present) should also have a vaccine other than AZ. Those are just the conditions I can think of without resorting to notes, textbooks or internet sources. Oh--and I forgot people with chronic inflammatory conditions, such as ulcerative colitis, rheumatoid arthritis and even obesity should also try to obtain a non-AZ vaccine. Any risk factor for hypercoagulability or increased potential for platelet activation or aggregation should be considered at increased risk of the kind of stroke (CerebroVascular Sinus Thrombosis -- CVST) seen in the EU with AZ vaccine.

Bear in mind, though, that this is, just guessing, no more than about 20 percent of the general population, or whatever the percentage of women on hormonal contraceptives or pregnant might be. Most of the patients who show the characteristic thromboelastrography traces of hypercoagulability in my area are patients with alcoholic cirrhosis. And I live in what is considered the "Alcoholic Cirrhosis Capital of the United States"--the Reno-Sparks, Nevada area. If I were a public health official trying to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible, I probably would target my distribution of the various vaccines so that the AZ vaccine went predominantly to senior citizens and (once available) to children who have not yet entered High School. If the AZ vaccine were still in surplus status, I would try to avoid giving it to women of childbearing age and men between 40 and 65. By focusing on prevalence rates of hypercoagulability in the population as seen in various demographics, it would be possible to substantially reduce the risk of CVST.

For the rest of the population, the risk of CVST is far, far smaller than the risk of contracting (about 10%, perhaps more) COVID-19. COVID-19 also has a disturbingly high mortality rate for a pathogen circulating in the developed world. For higher-risk populations, it's worth evaluating that risk prior to vaccination. A patient with Factor V Leyden absolutely should receive a different vaccine. Those patients, while very small in number, have enough trouble with hypercoagulability to begin with.

So anyways--the AZ vaccine isn't a death sentence. Far from it. Given the numbers seen in the EU, it isn't even an automatic death (or severe illness) sentence for those at higher risk.

One last thing--another couple sources of hypercoagulability: Polycythemia Vera (PV) and hereditary hemochromatosis (HH). PV tends to make blood plasma really viscous. I may not know why, but untreated PV patients have plasma that resembles glycerol or honey. And HH patients can also have the same plasma issues, as well as chronic inflammatory issues.

Hang around me long enough and you will want to run screaming from the room. I can go on like this for days.

TSherbs
April 6th, 2021, 01:34 PM
One week ago no-one believed me...

You are having trouble summarizing the replies to your comments. This is not accurate.

TSherbs
April 6th, 2021, 01:36 PM
.... (or wanted me banned simply for stating facts).

What is this comment from?

adhoc
April 7th, 2021, 06:33 AM
I didn't necessarily have you in mind.


Anyone seen my banhammer??? I used it on myself not too long ago...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This, I assumed, was meant for me.

lsmith42
April 7th, 2021, 08:15 AM
Nope... totally NOT meant for you... Herbguy understood my reference perfectly...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

calamus
April 10th, 2021, 03:08 PM
Will not take it, even at gunpoint.

TSherbs
April 10th, 2021, 07:54 PM
The "gun" is more likely pointed at a more vulnerable individual than, perhaps, yourself. If someone is likely to die from your decision, isn't it more noble to sacrifice yourself?

But, no matter, we've got you covered. I got my second dose yesterday. I've felt pretty dumpy all day. You're welcome.

Chuck Naill
April 11th, 2021, 06:55 AM
My Trumpian friend will not get the vaccine. It is like mask wearing for him. It reminds me of the child who stomps their feet and refuses to be obedient. Or, the people in church who think the virus knows not to mess with them. Humans are complicated. That said, I learned something new this morning and it's called the Platinum Rule, or, treat others as they want to be treated. If you don't want it, don't take it.

Brilliant Bill
April 11th, 2021, 07:03 AM
Decided to write up my experience with the mass medicine vaccination approach. Interesting experience...

https://deadreckoning1.wordpress.com/2021/04/11/you-bet-your-life-mass-medicine/

TSherbs
April 11th, 2021, 07:36 AM
Decided to write up my experience with the mass medicine vaccination approach. Interesting experience...

https://deadreckoning1.wordpress.com/2021/04/11/you-bet-your-life-mass-medicine/
Awesome writing, Bill. Thoroughly enjoyed it. I had very little side effects from Moderna shot #1, but after shot #2, I was in bed with chills and aches all day (the next day). I'm over 60, but not yet 65. Today I am much better. It came on quickly, and 30 hours later it left quickly. Small price to pay for helping out myself and the community. I am also a teacher, and we continue to have cases at school, and I regularly visit my 89 yr old mother, so....it just makes so much sense.

As a kid in the '60s , I can remember seeing so many older people still in polio leg braces. Vaccines aren't perfect, but they are nearly miraculous when seen in perspective of widespread disease.

By the way, that disclaimer from Pfizer just means that vaccines don't guarantee "prevention" of contraction of the virus. They aren't a Star-Trek-like defense shield, so they don't want people to misunderstand what a vaccine does (and then behave unwisely or sue them).

TFarnon
April 11th, 2021, 11:10 AM
Ooookay. A couple of my coworkers had "mild" COVID. When they finally returned to work, they said it suuuuuucked. As much as I want to rant and rave about herd immunity and selfish people and whatever, I won't do so. Well, I won't do so until these vaccines are no longer considered experimental by the FDA. When they are just more vaccines on the CDC schedules, just as measles and polio vaccines are on the CDC schedules, then I'll be quite happy to berate those who won't take the COVID shots. But until then, I'll just consider anti-COVID-vaxxers misguided.

TFarnon
April 11th, 2021, 11:14 AM
My second Moderna shot actually made my arm painful. But then, that may have been because my cat stood right on the injection site with both front paws, purring loudly. And concentrating all the weight of the universe on those two front paws, as cats do. Without that dubious feline "assistance", I don't know if I would have said that the injection site discomfort rose to the level of pain. Since I'd scheduled the second shot for the afternoon prior to one of my days off, I slept that entire next day. I usually sleep like that on my days off, so I couldn't tell you whether I felt awful or not. I was asleep.

kazoolaw
April 12th, 2021, 08:43 AM
As a kid in the '60s , I can remember seeing so many older people still in polio leg braces. Vaccines aren't perfect, but they are nearly miraculous when seen in perspective of widespread disease.

And all the TV shops with plots involving people in iron lungs.

kazoolaw
April 12th, 2021, 08:44 AM
"Shows" not "shops"

TSherbs
April 13th, 2021, 04:46 PM
Good luck, Ray.

adhoc
April 14th, 2021, 06:18 AM
J&J also showing blood clots similar to AZ.
Denmark permanently stops using AZ
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/14/denmark-permanently-stops-using-astrazeneca-vaccine/

I can't fucking wait for Pfizer and/or Moderna shots, USA seems to be doing well with them to the best of my knowledge.

Lady Onogaro
April 14th, 2021, 10:25 PM
I had an achy back and neck 24 hours after my Moderna shot, but I was better the next day. I am happy I got it; it definitely gave me a psychological boost. I know the limitations--just like the flu vaccine. And I will still mask up around people. I don't expect us to get anywhere near herd immunity in Louisiana. We had high infection rates and high death rates, but nothing will sway people here. They don't even get the flu shot. Lots of the kids aren't vaccinated--heck, lots of them don't even go to school regularly, and that was before the pandemic.

Chuck Naill
April 16th, 2021, 06:15 AM
Perhaps this is an overgeneralization, but people don't seem to be informed. Newspapers and network news no longer are or are considered reliable sources of information. Confirmation bias is the norm for how people choose to receive information. I am pessimistic that this will change anytime soon. Sometimes my mouth drops at the things people say they believe. I left Facebook three years ago. I could not stand the nonsense.

Brilliant Bill
April 16th, 2021, 09:27 AM
Perhaps this is an overgeneralization, but people don't seem to be informed. Newspapers and network news no longer are or are considered reliable sources of information. Confirmation bias is the norm for how people choose to receive information. I am pessimistic that this will change anytime soon. Sometimes my mouth drops at the things people say they believe. I left Facebook three years ago. I could not stand the nonsense.

Interesting. The Barbara Snock syndrome.

From an historical perspective, I don't think much has really changed. I'm working on a piece now about 1968, one of the most pivotal years in U.S. history. Walter Cronkite, "the most trusted man in America," went to Vietnam after the Tet offensive, looked around, came back and said we can't win this war. President Johnson responds, "If I've lost Cronkite, I've lost middle America," and a few weeks later announces he will not run for another term. That was the mainstream media of the time, and most people believed it. We had three TV networks, and we had newspapers. They were pretty reliable, but they were all contaminated with the long, dicey history of journalism. It's always been a business -- and rarely a pretty one. As ownership of media outlets has consolidated, a corporate agenda has severely polluted all reporting, or lack thereof. However, I think the biggest change has been with the vox populi -- the voice of the people.

Back in 1968, you didn't hear what every individual thought/believed. About the only outlet for individual spouting was a newspaper "letter to the editor," and if you go back and read those from that era, many are just as nutty as what you'd see on facebook today. And those comments were weeded out -- only the best got published! Today, everybody can demonstrate the full bloom of his stupidity, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, insolence, etc. through facebook, twitter, etc. And many people would prefer to side with a nut from Ypsilanti, Michigan than The New York Times because Ypsilanti's reality more closely matches what they want theirs to be. I also got off facebook for this reason. I also don't look directly into the eyes of most people, because I usually see a lot more than I want to -- and it's rarely good.

So, media has changed some because of corporate impingement on news, but it's still generally reliable, at least what does get reported. The lies of omission are the most egregious issue. People have not changed at all -- now we just have more opportunity to hear from more of them.

When we were children my sister had a good friend, Barbara Snock. To this day, we ridicule my sister with "Well, Barbara Snock said." Nothing in the world was valid until it had the Barbara Snock seal of approval. Walter Cronkite may have said we landed on the moon, but first we had to hear it from Barbara Snock! Call if confirmation bias, I guess, but it was the power of the voice of the people.

Amazingly, a year or so ago, I happened to meet Barbara Snock as an adult. She was more than a little embarrassed to be reminded of her standing over 60 years ago!

TFarnon
April 16th, 2021, 02:46 PM
I work with coagulation testing daily, have worked on COVID samples, and am generally a laboratory geek. I was sooooo excited when I saw that one of the clotting cases was from here in my state (Nevada). I had hopes until there was more information available that the patient was one of the patients I'd tested. Not that I wished ill on the patient, but I wanted to look back and see what the patient's thromboelastography (TEG) results looked like. Okay, not that it matters. The characteristic results of TEG testing in COVID patients leads me to think that the six patients with abnormal clotting have similar results. And for the last several months, even before the vaccine rollout, there have been a lot of these characteristic results, both in patients hospitalized with severe COVID and patients who apparently do not have COVID.

I don't think the above makes a whole lot of sense. It does in my brain, but I am really befuddled from hard overnight shifts and not enough sleep. I'm gonna just let it stand.

Chuck Naill
April 17th, 2021, 06:55 AM
Perhaps this is an overgeneralization, but people don't seem to be informed. Newspapers and network news no longer are or are considered reliable sources of information. Confirmation bias is the norm for how people choose to receive information. I am pessimistic that this will change anytime soon. Sometimes my mouth drops at the things people say they believe. I left Facebook three years ago. I could not stand the nonsense.

Interesting. The Barbara Snock syndrome.

From an historical perspective, I don't think much has really changed. I'm working on a piece now about 1968, one of the most pivotal years in U.S. history. Walter Cronkite, "the most trusted man in America," went to Vietnam after the Tet offensive, looked around, came back and said we can't win this war. President Johnson responds, "If I've lost Cronkite, I've lost middle America," and a few weeks later announces he will not run for another term. That was the mainstream media of the time, and most people believed it. We had three TV networks, and we had newspapers. They were pretty reliable, but they were all contaminated with the long, dicey history of journalism. It's always been a business -- and rarely a pretty one. As ownership of media outlets has consolidated, a corporate agenda has severely polluted all reporting, or lack thereof. However, I think the biggest change has been with the vox populi -- the voice of the people.

Back in 1968, you didn't hear what every individual thought/believed. About the only outlet for individual spouting was a newspaper "letter to the editor," and if you go back and read those from that era, many are just as nutty as what you'd see on facebook today. And those comments were weeded out -- only the best got published! Today, everybody can demonstrate the full bloom of his stupidity, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, insolence, etc. through facebook, twitter, etc. And many people would prefer to side with a nut from Ypsilanti, Michigan than The New York Times because Ypsilanti's reality more closely matches what they want theirs to be. I also got off facebook for this reason. I also don't look directly into the eyes of most people, because I usually see a lot more than I want to -- and it's rarely good.

So, media has changed some because of corporate impingement on news, but it's still generally reliable, at least what does get reported. The lies of omission are the most egregious issue. People have not changed at all -- now we just have more opportunity to hear from more of them.

When we were children my sister had a good friend, Barbara Snock. To this day, we ridicule my sister with "Well, Barbara Snock said." Nothing in the world was valid until it had the Barbara Snock seal of approval. Walter Cronkite may have said we landed on the moon, but first we had to hear it from Barbara Snock! Call if confirmation bias, I guess, but it was the power of the voice of the people.

Amazingly, a year or so ago, I happened to meet Barbara Snock as an adult. She was more than a little embarrassed to be reminded of her standing over 60 years ago!,

I enjoyed this. Thank you.

Of course Bernie Madoff just died and he is perhaps illustriative of why we have become generally skeptical. Doctors are trained to be evidenced based, and most still probably are. I've read and listened to journalist who have communicated they are evidenced based. Hell, I try to be evidenced based and it concerns me when I am not.

Barbara Snock had your trust and we do need folks like that for which we can depend on not to just tell us something we want to hear.

TSherbs
April 17th, 2021, 12:25 PM
Atlantic magazine has this interesting summary of recent theories on the clotting problem associated with COVID vaccine(s). It's behind a paywall, so I am posting here a reader's view pdf version.

You're welcome! :)

60267

TFarnon
April 25th, 2021, 10:57 AM
Is this COVID exposure? COVID vaccination? Pure coincidence? Confirmation bias? All I know is over the past week, we have gotten some huge honkin' hypercoagulable TEG (thromboelastography) results. Whether a phlebotomist draws the samples or an RN draws the samples doesn't seem to matter. I don't remember seeing this many distinctively hypocoagulable samples. They all have "high shoulders", most have short R-times (which means plenty of coagulation factors) and high MAs--higher than the platelet count would indicate. They all have growing MA activator results, which indicates high fibrinogen and probably high levels of endogenous heparinases.

The most recent information seems to indicate that platelet activation is significant in the COVID vaccine coagulopathy cases, and that PF4 (Platelet Factor 4) may be involved.

TFarnon
April 25th, 2021, 10:59 AM
An antibody to the PF4/heparin complex, if I read things correctly.

adhoc
April 28th, 2021, 01:00 AM
Is this COVID exposure? COVID vaccination? Pure coincidence? Confirmation bias? All I know is over the past week, we have gotten some huge honkin' hypercoagulable TEG (thromboelastography) results. Whether a phlebotomist draws the samples or an RN draws the samples doesn't seem to matter. I don't remember seeing this many distinctively hypocoagulable samples. They all have "high shoulders", most have short R-times (which means plenty of coagulation factors) and high MAs--higher than the platelet count would indicate. They all have growing MA activator results, which indicates high fibrinogen and probably high levels of endogenous heparinases.

The most recent information seems to indicate that platelet activation is significant in the COVID vaccine coagulopathy cases, and that PF4 (Platelet Factor 4) may be involved.

I'm not even going to pretend to understand what you wrote, but does that mean that we could predict who will have issues with blood clots with a simple blood test?

TFarnon
April 30th, 2021, 10:35 AM
We could at least direct high-risk individuals to safer vaccine formulations. And we could probably give anticoagulants like eliquis prophylactically, because these are people who would be hypercoagulable in the first place. As for those who suffer from too few platelets after vaccination, at the very least we should be able to monitor both the anti-PF4 thrombocytopenia potential. It might not be just one test, but it shouldn't be more than 3 or four tests for people at greatest risk (lupus and antiphospholipid syndrome, I'm looking at youuuuuuu).

Unfortunately, the more we know, the more complicated things get.

Empty_of_Clouds
April 30th, 2021, 04:47 PM
It's never lupus! :)

Cookedj
May 3rd, 2021, 07:35 AM
I find it interesting that the Johnson and Johnson was suspended for a time over 6 serious reactions with over 6 million vaccines given. Honestly, I would like to see the money trails of all the big companies to see which politician (or family) is a stockholder, board member etc.

TFarnon
May 4th, 2021, 05:13 PM
I think I hold some J&J stock. I'm pretty sure I do. In any case, it's 100 shares or less, because I have very few holdings of more than 100 shares of a specific stock. Obviously I am not influencing anything.

I'm interested in all the developments, but that's because I work with coagulation as part of my job. I'm also always interested in pandemics and viruses and bacteria and stuff like that.

Cookedj
May 5th, 2021, 08:55 AM
I think I hold some J&J stock. I'm pretty sure I do. In any case, it's 100 shares or less, because I have very few holdings of more than 100 shares of a specific stock. Obviously I am not influencing anything.

I'm interested in all the developments, but that's because I work with coagulation as part of my job. I'm also always interested in pandemics and viruses and bacteria and stuff like that.

I am fascinated by plagues, viruses etc. The most frightening book I have ever read was about the ebola virus in Africa.

adhoc
June 6th, 2021, 03:42 AM
Finally got the shot today. Johnson, one and done I guess.

TSherbs
June 6th, 2021, 08:24 PM
Finally got the shot today. Johnson, one and done I guess.

Good luck

Linger
June 10th, 2021, 02:04 AM
[/QUOTE]

I am fascinated by plagues, viruses etc. The most frightening book I have ever read was about the ebola virus in Africa.[/QUOTE]

Which book was that?

Empty_of_Clouds
June 10th, 2021, 04:39 AM
Might be The Hot Zone (https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Zone-Terrifying-Story-Origins-ebook/dp/B007DCU4IQ)by Richard Preston

Linger
June 11th, 2021, 01:42 AM
Thx, that is what i thought based on amazon hitlist.

welch
June 12th, 2021, 05:25 PM
No, none of the anti-covid vaccines inject micro-chips. No, contrary to US "Republican" party line, the line that tells Trump-believing "Republicans" that put magnetic specs in your body:

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/558144-woman-fails-to-prove-the-covid-19-vaccine-made-her-magnetic-during-ohio?fbclid=IwAR2kJ04dQHRR18TYuT5gGR7uENgk29C9ImAR hTZ-kdTaklyy4PRTNswPjUc


A nurse during an Ohio House hearing on Thursday tried to prove a debunked theory that taking the COVID-19 vaccine makes a person "magnetic."

Joanna Overholt tried to place a key and bobby pin against her body in an effort to prove that both would stick to her skin, though the attempt ultimately failed. Overholt was trying to attest to a conspiracy theory that's been widely circulated by a Cleveland-area physician and anti-vaccine activist, Sherri Tenpenny, who also testified in front of Ohio lawmakers.

“Explain why the key sticks to me,” Overholt said during the hearing. In video of her testimony, the key sticks to her for approximately three seconds before she removes it.


“It sticks to my neck too,” she added, though she failed to get it to stay. She also attempted to make a bobby pin stick, though that failed as well.

Overholt testified in favor of the proposed Enact Vaccine Choice and Anti-Discrimination Act, which the Ohio Capital Journal reports would prohibit anyone from mandating or asking people to take a vaccine, including the COVID-19 vaccine.

Hopeless.

The US senate has an eye-doctor who claims to be an expert on infectious diseases. As many of us said when the US invaded Iraq, "Sorry, world". We voted the fool out of the White House, and we will do our best to keep out his True Believers from now on.

dneal
June 17th, 2021, 02:46 PM
Did the U.S. Senator / eye doctor say anything you quoted? Has he been arguing with Fauci about whether or not the vaccine makes people magnetic?

Because that’s why you’re full of shit and contribute essentially nothing to these threads other than your crazy opinions. And you’re the guy demanding “logic”. The guy that posted that nonsense above wants logic…

As it happens, the eye doctor was right though.

Chuck Naill
June 18th, 2021, 04:18 AM
I have a friend that listens to Fox News daily who hates Fauci. Is there a causal relationship?

adhoc
June 19th, 2021, 02:21 PM
Finally got the shot today. Johnson, one and done I guess.

Good luck

Thanks, but I don't think the J&J or AZ vaccines are problematic for men, only for younger women. There's an extremely rare case of blood clots in men, but not really much higher than in general population, properly compared (no statistical shenanigans).

The arm hurt a little bit for a few days, I couldn't sleep for almost a week (this one was really the big issue for me, I felt like a truck ran over me for nearly a week...), and I had some "burning" sensation in my back for a few days. Really strange, never felt anything like that.

Anyways all good now. Oh and my lady is pregnant again, so if the vaccine is meant to make us all infertile, as I've been told in the ooga booga believing circles, it's doing a really poor job.

TSherbs
June 20th, 2021, 08:37 PM
Congrats adhoc!

TSherbs
June 20th, 2021, 08:43 PM
Because that’s why you’re full of shit and contribute essentially nothing to these threads other than your crazy opinions.

Your lack of reflective insight is astounding at times.

dneal
June 22nd, 2021, 04:13 AM
Because that’s why you’re full of shit and contribute essentially nothing to these threads other than your crazy opinions.

Your lack of reflective insight is astounding at times.

Your confession by projection was anticipated.

Cyril
June 22nd, 2021, 11:35 AM
The famous "Johnson and Johnson" produced Baby Talc and it was only known to one or two products.
That is to create products and nappies for baby Butts ? talc and baby nappy creams.
I used them, and most of us used the Talc .
Still I have one Talc in house I am using for my shoes to keep them from humidity so I am expecting to keep my toes dry ( Just like CUTY CURA TALC I bleieve it is a heathy idea. )

But although google is bad tech , technology master in one way it is a Saver and a great friend if you use it right. TO EDUCATE YOUR SELF IT IS A GOOD MEAN.

https://www.asbestos.com/news/2021/02/24/johnsons-billions-talc-settlements/

This above ironic law suit against Johnson against it's founding ICONIK product Talc for baby Butts . CAN YOU TRUST THEY COULD COME WITH A MEDICINE TO CURE YOUR HEADACHE !!
It is a laugh what people think about what they are doing with ONE TO ONE human testing ON A larger scale.
Those who are DOING ALL THIS HYPNOTISING AND they all think all must go. SO IT IS HAPPENING and it is nobody's fault.

Cyril
June 22nd, 2021, 12:15 PM
You know this is a place for talking about your ink.
About your pencil.
About your paper or perhaps the paper or start a conversation like..

"I don't have enough paper to continue my journal and as the paper supply store is 300 km away and the whether is bad so I can't get to the store today.
So I am wondering if I can write my journal on the wall somewhere "". ????

So this place is not a place to talk about your health or the politics or WHAT IS The " CEO OF VATICAN " DOING TODAY type of question.
So the FAKE BOOK IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO WARM UP AND IGNITE YOUR HUNGRY MIND ON ALL OF THAT ( BECOUSE IT IS A PLACE FOR PRIVET SHARING ) or perhaps the other iconic social media is the right place to do similar discussions.
I can see lot of Gurus are agitated . well wind up to say how happy they are doing well but still they not sure it is true. They want to have a second one and so on and so on.

I am looking up at my Syringe that I am using for my ink bottle. I SAY FOR MY INK BOTTLE....
It is a real fun to use it on my pens but not on anything that has a life.

Cookedj
July 18th, 2021, 09:11 PM
Another thought to ponder - if you had covid and recovered from it, do you need the vaccine? I already have natural antibodies because of the illness. I've seen studies that say both yes and no.

Empty_of_Clouds
July 18th, 2021, 09:31 PM
Looks like the jury is still out, but if it was me I would go and have the vaccine anyway, as it appears that the immune response to the vaccine is more robust than the response to contracting Covid-19. And not all Covid survivors have detectable antibodies, so there is that too. Would I be right in guessing you've had an antibody screen?

Chuck Naill
July 19th, 2021, 05:35 AM
Another thought to ponder - if you had covid and recovered from it, do you need the vaccine? I already have natural antibodies because of the illness. I've seen studies that say both yes and no.

Somewhere in my memrory I recall 3 months protection post infection. It would not be something I'd count on. Also, those with previous infections had worse post vaccine reactions, but only for 48 hours. The information is readily available, so don't depend on anything you read here.

TSherbs
July 19th, 2021, 09:42 AM
Another thought to ponder - if you had covid and recovered from it, do you need the vaccine? I already have natural antibodies because of the illness. I've seen studies that say both yes and no.

Get the vaccine.

Cyril
July 23rd, 2021, 08:01 AM
YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND WE ARE ALL IN THIS. WE HAVE TO BE TOGETHER TO COME OUT OF THIS AS ONE.
Just for the fun , please Just watch this video and it was done way before the time we are today.
If if could resonance to something that could be you health of a constant fear that is creeping into the mind due to the environment you could go into the next level.
There's a message and this message is out there for some times. I got my attention on 2012 when they first put out this message. Forget about what everyone is telling you. Instead watch this video and do your thinking and see what is next.
We all make mistakes but we have the power to correct all the mistakes and find the path. THIS IS YOUR TIME AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT.
This message is growing bigger is spreading well over out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s

When you finish the first then come back to the NEXT FREE ENERGY FOR THE WHOLE PLANET. FROM ZIMBABWE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6OLpT59kE0

This is the next one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHePKrB__RM

Please share these videos and time to stop going to FORUM TO DISCUSS ABOUT YOUR HEATH. Stop doing recommendations or affiliating ( congratulating ) on healthcare to other people.
Your heath belongs to you. I am glad if one person look into the link I have given and SAY MY GOD WHY WE FOUND THIS BEFORE. Take care and blessings to everyone.

Chuck Naill
July 29th, 2021, 05:07 PM
It really bothers me that Trump supporters may cause harm to children who cannot get a vaccine.

dneal
July 30th, 2021, 04:31 AM
It really bothers me that Trump supporters may cause harm to children who cannot get a vaccine.

One more sure sign of your TDS.

Chuck Naill
July 30th, 2021, 06:21 AM
It really bothers me that Trump supporters may cause harm to children who cannot get a vaccine.

One more sure sign of your TDS.

What about this? LOL!!

kazoolaw
July 30th, 2021, 08:16 AM
What about this? LOL!!

Chuck, admitting your TDS is the first step to recovery. Be well!!

Chuck Naill
July 30th, 2021, 11:28 AM
If it were only a disease........

If Trumpism were just something I dreamed up, it could easily be dismissed. Since so many have died believing his nonsense, hard to admit it's all a fabrication. That said, since so many recordings and videos exist, how is it that some ignore and some take it seriously? I am sure Germany in the late '20's looked similar. They procrastinated until it was too late.

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"
PASTOR MARTIN NIEMÖLLER

Chuck Naill
August 1st, 2021, 04:57 PM
Wait and see, children. Wait and see.

TSherbs
August 1st, 2021, 05:14 PM
This piece pretty well sums up a lot of the problem for me:

HuffPost: I'm An ICU Doctor And I Cannot Believe The Things Unvaccinated Patients Are Telling Me.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/icu-doctor-health-care-workers-unvaccinated-patients_n_6102ad2ae4b000b997df1f17?ncid=NEWSSTAND 0001

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Empty_of_Clouds
August 1st, 2021, 06:00 PM
Read that a few hours ago. Sadly I don't find it unbelievable what unvaccinated patients are saying. It's the kind of time we live in.

Had my first vaccination today, Pfizer.

TSherbs
August 1st, 2021, 08:06 PM
Read that a few hours ago. Sadly I don't find it unbelievable what unvaccinated patients are saying. It's the kind of time we live in.

Had my first vaccination today, Pfizer.

Yeah, some people go bat*&^%crazy when it comes to health and science ideas. And the internet doesn't actually help.

Congrats on the vax.

Cyril
August 2nd, 2021, 09:36 AM
If it were only a disease........

If Trumpism were just something I dreamed up, it could easily be dismissed. Since so many have died believing his nonsense, hard to admit it's all a fabrication. That said, since so many recordings and videos exist, how is it that some ignore and some take it seriously? I am sure Germany in the late '20's looked similar. They procrastinated until it was too late.

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"
PASTOR MARTIN NIEMÖLLER

How many of us don't see the above meaningful quote and it indicates how many of us are sensible of the what is going on. !!!!!!
During centuries all the political power had got into power grid. They created everything they wanted to do within a few family. their power was handed over from generation to the other.
Changing the governments and the leadership was just "another fake story by sugar coating" to continue the plane to roll out and it is at it's top level today.

There are more occasions still to override the situation by going around the storm instead of going against or going with that.
It is better to act up without blaming others and that is the only way to get over this.

Empty_of_Clouds
August 2nd, 2021, 01:45 PM
Well, that made no sense to me.

Anyway,
Yeah, some people go bat*&^%crazy when it comes to health and science ideas. And the internet doesn't actually help. kind of brings to mind the opening lines of the famous poem by Alexander Pope:

A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

The internet has, perhaps above most other effects, given legitimacy to that sentiment.

TSherbs
August 3rd, 2021, 05:23 PM
Here is an interesting take on the social dynamics of vaccine rejection, and then the "shameful" efforts to get vaccinated secretly:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/vaccine-refusers-dont-want-blue-americas-respect/619627/?utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

TSherbs
August 6th, 2021, 08:17 AM
Well, he likely didn't get it on the House floor, unless it was from one of the other unmasked members:

https://apnews.com/article/health-coronavirus-pandemic-6b2267e56b73c8d7635bb106947f4ea0

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Chuck Naill
August 7th, 2021, 06:24 AM
I remember last year reading something a hospital nurse wrote about patients dying and getting angry as hell when they were diagnosed with the virus. She said this occured over and over as they died denying the truth. These dying people screaming the virus is not real.

When today I am reading that the governor of Florida is threatening the school system if they require a mask for the little children who cannot yet be vaccinated, I am confounded how a person gets to be this way. For me, this kind of person is saying they do not care for others. If this is true, he has no business being in office.

Chuck Naill
August 10th, 2021, 12:05 PM
No mask mandates and children back in school. My grand daughter tested positive this AM. Fortunately symptoms are low grade fever and headache. Looking forward to when 12 and under can receive the vaccine.

TSherbs
August 10th, 2021, 03:20 PM
We wish her well, Chuck, and her family.

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adhoc
August 11th, 2021, 02:57 AM
No mask mandates and children back in school. My grand daughter tested positive this AM. Fortunately symptoms are low grade fever and headache. Looking forward to when 12 and under can receive the vaccine.

I hope for the best for your family!

Empty_of_Clouds
August 11th, 2021, 03:39 AM
Hope all goes well, Chuck.

Here in New Zealand the government has just announced that if any cases of the delta variant are discovered we will go into an immediate total lockdown. This thing ain't over but I sure wish it was.

Chuck Naill
August 11th, 2021, 12:09 PM
All appears to be well with her. Thank you to all for your well wishes . Just a very sore throat.

HerrFlik
August 13th, 2021, 11:18 AM
@Chuck - glad to hear she is doing ok and that she recovers fully soon.

To answer the main questions on the thread. I got the vaccine because I saw what it did to someone I work with. He went into intensive care for 4 months initially in a coma and it has taken almost 9 months for him to be completely rehabilitated (physiotherapy to walk again, breathing exercises because it killed his lung function to the point he could not do one flight of stares or speak without running out of breath etc, etc).

I do have worries about side effects long term. My family have had bad reactions to the different 'brands' of vaccine which almost put me off getting it (including a rush to hospital). I have suffered some really nasty side effects and still have some lethargy which is just not going away like I need it to. It bothers me but seeing what can happen without something to prevent or mitigate the effects of full blown COVID its a small price to pay to have my main health intact.

I do have a concern that the virus became opportunity that handed the powers that be of all persuasions an almost free ticket to assume more control than would have normally been allowed. And I genuinely don't believe they want to give that up.

TSherbs
August 13th, 2021, 04:47 PM
@Chuck - glad to hear she is doing ok and that she recovers fully soon.

To answer the main questions on the thread. I got the vaccine because I saw what it did to someone I work with. He went into intensive care for 4 months initially in a coma and it has taken almost 9 months for him to be completely rehabilitated (physiotherapy to walk again, breathing exercises because it killed his lung function to the point he could not do one flight of stares or speak without running out of breath etc, etc).

I do have worries about side effects long term. My family have had bad reactions to the different 'brands' of vaccine which almost put me off getting it (including a rush to hospital). I have suffered some really nasty side effects and still have some lethargy which is just not going away like I need it to. It bothers me but seeing what can happen without something to prevent or mitigate the effects of full blown COVID its a small price to pay to have my main health intact.

I do have a concern that the virus became opportunity that handed the powers that be of all persuasions an almost free ticket to assume more control than would have normally been allowed. And I genuinely don't believe they want to give that up.

I hope that you and your close ones are well, and stay that way.

I don't think that your worries about "control" are justified, however. I don't know where you live, but here in the US children have been required for decades to have certain vaccinations in order to attend public schools (...in several states, but not all. Here in the US we have many laws that are different in each state). The requirement has been for public health and the *freedom from* illness and suffering, to themselves and to others, that mass vaccination brings to a population, both local and national. Vaccination acceptance increases the *freedom* to mingle, travel, and live a life free of the burden of both pandemic and acute illness.

I'm not sure what other "control" that you could be referring to. Perhaps you might explain.

Chuck Naill
August 14th, 2021, 06:44 AM
Perhaps the "control" is to make people stay away from each other, prevent families from being with their dying, to force mask wearing, and now to get a vaccine.

Someone told me once that it was constitutional to require seat belts because it protected the US citizen. It also prevented someone from becoming a projectile to kill another. I am sure is language to justify somewhere, but I have not done the research.

I will say the school where my grand daughter attends has decided after two weeks to require masks. I find it unthinkable that anyone would not do everything possible to protect a child who is not cleared to receive a vaccine while at the same time requireing a yearly flu vaccine and a record for all childhood vaccines.

For me the pandemic has demonstrated just how susceptible we are to what we hear and choose to believe. If anything, we should strive in some way to guard ourselves and only believe the truth while yet not allowing ourselves to become angry and bitter when others refuse to do the same. Not that we have to all agree. It is just that to be guilty of repeating information we have not yet vetted is a sin, or should be.

TSherbs
August 14th, 2021, 12:02 PM
...Not that we have to all agree. It is just that to be guilty of repeating information we have not yet vetted is a sin, or should be.

But there goes all chat during darts and beer.



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Chuck Naill
August 14th, 2021, 03:56 PM
Would to God that it was just a “chat”.😞

Chuck Naill
August 15th, 2021, 06:08 AM
US citizens are, in some places, ignoring the politicians and wearing masks on their own. I sure am and I am noticing this time that some of us are probably thinking if you have a problem with masks, it's your problem not ours. It is time to end this pandemic one way or another. Perhaps the pandemic will prove Darwin's idea of Natural Selection correct.

kazoolaw
August 16th, 2021, 01:21 PM
Here in New Zealand the government has just announced that if any cases of the delta variant are discovered we will go into an immediate total lockdown. This thing ain't over but I sure wish it was.

I am so sorry, but join your wish for it to be over.

Empty_of_Clouds
August 16th, 2021, 02:46 PM
Sorry for what? New Zealand has been a world leader in response to the pandemic, as can be seen from the statistics. We do what is necessary to contain and eliminate the threat, and mostly this has been a national movement. We also have the advantage of being geographically isolated and with a small (5 million) population - lucky us. As I see it (opinion inbound) the US (generalised) has become so preoccupied with the concept of personal freedom that far too many have lost sight of societal responsibility and obligation. We get that a bit too, but it creates far less of a problem here.

On the other hand, our vaccine rollout has been very slow compared to other countries. In part, this was a supply issue, but overall the plan was not optimal. We can argue that slow rollout is less critical as we have no community cases, but that would be just an example of spin. It is better to get majorly vaccinated as quickly as possible.

If anyone is in any doubt, I am and have always been fully behind mandatory vaccinations that can ensure the health and safety of society. In a sense, the anti-vax people are a public health risk in their own right.

kazoolaw
August 16th, 2021, 04:55 PM
I am sorry an entire country could be shut down by a single case. Is there a repository for NZ statistics on all flus?

I am woefully ignorant about NZ in general, and how its government has handled COVID thus far. Apparently it has not squandered its credibility as has happened here. From Kamala Harris saying she wouldn't trust any vaccine initiated by Trump, to come to NYC and party, to flip-flops on masks/no masks, to putting COVID patients into nursing home while hospitals were empty, to amazing tricks with statistics, to shutting down gatherings but having 60th birthday parties with unmasked guests, and the echos of the Tuskegee experiment have created varying levels of distrust. America has a long history of conspiracy theories, which this plays into.

Hopefully you won't lock down and, if you do, it's not the Masque of the Red Death.

Be well.

TSherbs
August 16th, 2021, 06:08 PM
If anyone is in any doubt, I am and have always been fully behind mandatory vaccinations that can ensure the health and safety of society. In a sense, the anti-vax people are a public health risk in their own right.

word


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Empty_of_Clouds
August 17th, 2021, 12:55 AM
And just like that we are into Alert Level 4: total lockdown. Three days down here on the South Island, and seven days in the Auckland area (North Island). Eek!

TSherbs
August 17th, 2021, 07:21 AM
And just like that we are into Alert Level 4: total lockdown. Three days down here on the South Island, and seven days in the Auckland area (North Island). Eek!

Good luck. Stay safe, and best wishes!

Cookedj
August 17th, 2021, 09:22 AM
If you get a chance to read The Great Influenza by John Barry. Very enlightening to see what really went on during the Flu Pandemic of 1918 and how governments policies and refusal to listen helped the Flu spread.

Chuck Naill
August 19th, 2021, 06:15 AM
Booster doses for those who received their first dose will be avaialble in September. I plan on getting a booster because my first dose was 1/6/21. Yes, the same day...LOL!!

TSherbs
August 19th, 2021, 10:19 AM
I am sure that I will get one, too, since I am working in a school with hundreds of unvaccinated young persons.

adhoc
August 19th, 2021, 10:42 PM
I have to say I am not sure I'll be getting a booster shot. I read (official US CDC reports) the vaccines don't do much about the spread of the virus nor about your chances of contracting it, only saving you from a trip to the hospital, and even that's debatable for at risk people. We're (my family) still quite young, young enough to not be in a risky age group yet at least and I'm not seeing what exactly the vaccines do for me. We also had COVID before the vaccines were available and while it wasn't really great, it wasn't that bad either.

The report was pretty damning, citing numbers from Israel, which currently holds a lot of precious data regarding covid immunization. I've also read that the efficacy of the vaccines isn't entirely unexpected, as they fall anyway above where a typical coronavirus vaccine would. I guess I just hoped it would at least dampen the spread and that I could protect people around me by getting vaccinated, but that doesn't seem to be the case. A shame, really.

We're also debating whether we should start living our lives again. Our kids doctor advised us to do so. Meaning the kid goes back to the kindergarden, I'm finally going back to the gym (used to go 4-5 times a week, haven't been in 2 years now and I'm missing it so much it's driving me crazy). Have another kid on the way due in January, we can't keep locking ourselves up like this indefinitely, and it looks like this thing isn't going away, it looks like it will be with us for years, if not decades.

We're still on the fence about it and a week ago we were sure we're going back into isolated and protected life again, as cases have been exploding again here, but our doctor told us we probably can't evade delta variant either way and that my 2 year olds social life is more important than the risk of getting covid in the kindergarten. And if she's going to be in close contact with 14 kids, then I can risk the not-so-close contact with 2 people at the gym.

I don't know. It's honestly a difficult time to be in charge of making decisions for others (my family) at the moment. Naturally, I want the best for them, but I don't think anyone truly knows what the best decision in this case is. Weird times. Not to come off wrong however, I am happy to take this responsibility regardless, as I pride myself on being accountable and responsible, and I shudder to think if I were in this situation as a kid with my drunkard, useless, excuse of a man, father in charge.

I'm sorry for going a bit off of the tangent here (is this the right way to use this expression?), but I'd be curious what others, most of you more experienced with life than me, think. Is there an aspect I haven't considered?

TSherbs
August 20th, 2021, 06:23 AM
Adhoc, vaccines aren't shields from infection by the virus. I am not sure what your doctor may have meant by "avoid" the virus. Vaccines are never a guarantee that one "avoids" the contagion. They boost an individual's immune response to the contagion in order to lessen the severity of illness in reaction to possible later exposure and to lessen the degree of communicability to others (including family members). These viruses will circulate in the population for years, perhaps forever (can't predict).

My point of view: Get the vaccine, get the booster (other common vaccines have boosters), and help protect your family from serious illness. Especially if you are going to a gym where you might share equipment with random unvaccinated adults. And help protect everyone else you ever interact with (I have elderly parents and cannot, in my conscience, visit them unless I am vaccinated, and then boostered if that becomes recommended. And I must practice safe living or else I am a greater risk to them than I need to be).

I am a teacher of teens, but my work also requires that I share time and space with schoolchildren as young as 4years. I owe it to those children and to their families to do the best I can to not infect them while also keeping the school open for learning and social-emotional development. Don't you want that for your family, too? And if you want the teachers/care providers to be fully vaccinated (which might also involve boosters), then would you not want to do the same yourself?

This is a no-brainer to me, but I am not scared of the vaccines at all, especially not in comparison to the illness and death rates of the contagion among the unvaccinated. I get booster shots every time they are offered to me. I consider vaccines to be a nearly miraculous gift of having lived in this time of medical advance.

But yes, we must each make our own decisions.

Chuck Naill
August 20th, 2021, 06:54 AM
I feel I owe the children as well and will always get a vaccine to protect them. When I was a volunteer in the NICU I was required to get a MMR booster since my titer levels not adequate. That was a two stage process just like the Moderna vaccine I received. As a volunteer I was also required to receive a flu vaccine, which I do every year anyway. So, vaccines are just part of my life and have always been.

It wasn't until Wakefield's debunked research on a autism link to the MMR vaccine did vaccines become so controversial in my world. I couldn't believe that even after the study was found out, parents I knew continued to believe it. Apparenrtly some even didn't want their children to get a chicken pox vaccine. Some had these chicken pox parties. It seemed outragious to me. I mean varicella pneumonia can be a complication so not taking it seriously can to harm.

I am happy to report that everyone that can, had had either the two stage or one stage vaccine.

As far as waning coverage, the same occurs with the flu vaccine and why timing your vaccine can be important.

adhoc
August 20th, 2021, 06:58 AM
I'm for vaccines as well, but not the ones I don't need. For example, I'm not getting a malaria vaccine, as there's no reason to. Likewise, if there's no use for the covid vaccine, I'm not getting it either. I mean I am fully vaccinated now until end of January I think, then I'll be eligible for a booster shot. If the vaccine protected people around me this would be a no brainer, but latest reports indicate vaccines do nothing to slow the spread, only the severity of outcome.

Either way, I have until end of January to decide. Hopefully more data will be available by then.

TSherbs
August 20th, 2021, 07:24 AM
What do you mean by "slow the spread"? Vaccines don't eradicate contagions; they reduce illness and save lives.

Here's a scenario: let's take tuberculosis. It has been estimated that 90% of the population showed exposure to the contagion (very highly communicable). And let's say that 10% of those who showed illness ended up dying from it. Is it your point that if even after vaccinating a population and mortality was cut to, say, 0.5%, you would not take the vaccine if the contagion was still found to be in 90% of the population? I don't understand why you prioritize eradication of a contagion over health and safety of people. There are all sorts of viruses and other contagions that move through populations that don't make us sick and that don't kill us.

Malaria, by the way, has a whole different vector of spread, and is a very different kind of decision.

I'm not out to change your mind. I just don't understand the value behind your priorities here. I feel like you're not stating some crux of the matter.

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Chuck Naill
August 20th, 2021, 07:45 AM
I'm for vaccines as well, but not the ones I don't need. For example, I'm not getting a malaria vaccine, as there's no reason to. Likewise, if there's no use for the covid vaccine, I'm not getting it either. I mean I am fully vaccinated now until end of January I think, then I'll be eligible for a booster shot. If the vaccine protected people around me this would be a no brainer, but latest reports indicate vaccines do nothing to slow the spread, only the severity of outcome.

Either way, I have until end of January to decide. Hopefully more data will be available by then.

With the Delta varriant, fully vaccinated people can become a carrier and yet remain asymptomic. This is why I am wearing a mask again.

I began to wear a mask April 2020. Masks also can help prevent spread. It is not 100 percent effective, but it's an easy practice.

adhoc
August 20th, 2021, 09:00 AM
I'm sorry, I don't know why I assumed you've read about it (I'm not being sarcastic); research shows, that vaccinated people are spreading covid as well as unvaccinated people do. The vaccines do next to nothing to slow the spread, the infected vaccinated are as contagious as unvaccinated.


Reliable source: https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/england-says-delta-infections-produce-similar-virus-levels-regardless-vaccine-2021-08-06/
"There are early signs that people who have been vaccinated against COVID-19 may be able to transmit the Delta variant of the virus as easily as those who have not, scientists at Public Health England (PHE) said on Friday.

The findings chime with those from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which last week raised concerns that vaccinated people infected with Delta could, unlike with other variants, readily transmit it."

It's okay if you change my mind, that's what I'm here for, really. In light of better arguments than my own I am ALWAYS happy to change my opinion. Well, in this case, I haven't even decided yet.

My wife and I (me? I can never remember which one is the correct form) have asked our doctors, our kids doctor, our friend who's working in pharmacy, we're asking around what others think to get opinions of various sides in regards to booster shots and whether we should again start living our lives (kindergarten, gym, etc.). We're genuinely struggling how to reach an objectively optimal conclusion in which we can find solace if anything unpleasant happens.

TSherbs
August 20th, 2021, 11:06 AM
Adhoc, why do you care about "spread" rates if the vaccine means that you and your family and the rest of the population (who vaccinated) won't get as sick and will die far less often?

Why do you worry about spread rates more than about the amount of death and suffering? Do you understand my question?

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adhoc
August 20th, 2021, 11:22 AM
I understand. Here's my point: hospitalization rate for people in my age group in our country currently is 0.003%. That's less risk than you take every time you sit behind a steering wheel in a car, arguably the highest risk you can take in your daily life in our highly developed societies, and vaccines don't drop even that risk. We have had exactly 0 cases for preschool children of developing "long term covid" symptoms and other unpleasant developments. If I'm not protecting others by vaccinating, and arguably the vaccines do pretty much nothing to protect me, what's the point of me taking the vaccine? If there would be a single benefit, I will take the booster shot, but I see absolutely no benefit as it stands. This is however based on the preliminary reports and just me thinking out loud. As I said, I'm fully vaccinated until end of January or so, and I have to make a decision until then.

Chuck Naill
August 20th, 2021, 12:15 PM
Perhaps this is a consideration. How much could change if one infected person came into your community?

TSherbs
August 20th, 2021, 12:42 PM
[removed]

adhoc
August 20th, 2021, 12:52 PM
Perhaps this is a consideration. How much could change if one infected person came into your community?

Honestly not much. Our previous experience with contracting COVID was I had a cough for a few weeks (plus difficulty breathing upon physical exertion) and my daughter had fever for 3 or 4 days. My wife was fine. The only reason we got vaccinated was for others around us, but now it seems like vaccines don't help in that regard whatsoever.

TSHerbs - hospitalized / infected

dneal
August 20th, 2021, 02:47 PM
I understand. Here's my point: hospitalization rate for people in my age group in our country currently is 0.003%. That's less risk than you take every time you sit behind a steering wheel in a car, arguably the highest risk you can take in your daily life in our highly developed societies, and vaccines don't drop even that risk. We have had exactly 0 cases for preschool children of developing "long term covid" symptoms and other unpleasant developments. If I'm not protecting others by vaccinating, and arguably the vaccines do pretty much nothing to protect me, what's the point of me taking the vaccine? If there would be a single benefit, I will take the booster shot, but I see absolutely no benefit as it stands. This is however based on the preliminary reports and just me thinking out loud. As I said, I'm fully vaccinated until end of January or so, and I have to make a decision until then.

My wife got the vaccine, and I didn't for many of the reasons you describe. At the end of the day the real science is the lethality rate. It's not particularly high, but it looks like that when it happens all at once - like a plane crash. Exponentially more people are dying from things other than COVID, every second of every day, and we know nothing about it. 160k people die each day, all over the globe, every day.

I've survived all kinds of things that probably should have (or could have) killed me. One day, I won't. Maybe it's a car crash, maybe it's an aneurism, maybe it will be COVID. I got over fear of death a long time ago. I'm not in any hurry, mind you; I'm just not afraid of it.

Chuck Naill
August 20th, 2021, 03:15 PM
I understand. Here's my point: hospitalization rate for people in my age group in our country currently is 0.003%. That's less risk than you take every time you sit behind a steering wheel in a car, arguably the highest risk you can take in your daily life in our highly developed societies, and vaccines don't drop even that risk. We have had exactly 0 cases for preschool children of developing "long term covid" symptoms and other unpleasant developments. If I'm not protecting others by vaccinating, and arguably the vaccines do pretty much nothing to protect me, what's the point of me taking the vaccine? If there would be a single benefit, I will take the booster shot, but I see absolutely no benefit as it stands. This is however based on the preliminary reports and just me thinking out loud. As I said, I'm fully vaccinated until end of January or so, and I have to make a decision until then.

My wife got the vaccine, and I didn't for many of the reasons you describe. At the end of the day the real science is the lethality rate. It's not particularly high, but it looks like that when it happens all at once - like a plane crash. Exponentially more people are dying from things other than COVID, every second of every day, and we know nothing about it. 160k people die each day, all over the globe, every day.

I've survived all kinds of things that probably should have (or could have) killed me. One day, I won't. Maybe it's a car crash, maybe it's an aneurism, maybe it will be COVID. I got over fear of death a long time ago. I'm not in any hurry, mind you; I'm just not afraid of it.

At least your honest. Just don’t receive an ICU bed in case you get real sick.

The ICU beds are filled here. The doctors and nurses haven’t had a day off in 3 weeks. More of the unvaccinated should just die at home.

dneal
August 20th, 2021, 03:19 PM
I understand. Here's my point: hospitalization rate for people in my age group in our country currently is 0.003%. That's less risk than you take every time you sit behind a steering wheel in a car, arguably the highest risk you can take in your daily life in our highly developed societies, and vaccines don't drop even that risk. We have had exactly 0 cases for preschool children of developing "long term covid" symptoms and other unpleasant developments. If I'm not protecting others by vaccinating, and arguably the vaccines do pretty much nothing to protect me, what's the point of me taking the vaccine? If there would be a single benefit, I will take the booster shot, but I see absolutely no benefit as it stands. This is however based on the preliminary reports and just me thinking out loud. As I said, I'm fully vaccinated until end of January or so, and I have to make a decision until then.

My wife got the vaccine, and I didn't for many of the reasons you describe. At the end of the day the real science is the lethality rate. It's not particularly high, but it looks like that when it happens all at once - like a plane crash. Exponentially more people are dying from things other than COVID, every second of every day, and we know nothing about it. 160k people die each day, all over the globe, every day.

I've survived all kinds of things that probably should have (or could have) killed me. One day, I won't. Maybe it's a car crash, maybe it's an aneurism, maybe it will be COVID. I got over fear of death a long time ago. I'm not in any hurry, mind you; I'm just not afraid of it.

At least your honest. Just don’t receive an ICU bed in case you get real sick.

The ICU beds are filled here. The doctors and nurses haven’t had a day off in 3 weeks. More of the unvaccinated should just die at home.

Quoted so everyone can see what a real piece of shit your are, Chuck. Why on earth would any human desire that for another? You're the "empathy" thread guy?

Chuck Naill
August 20th, 2021, 03:41 PM
I understand. Here's my point: hospitalization rate for people in my age group in our country currently is 0.003%. That's less risk than you take every time you sit behind a steering wheel in a car, arguably the highest risk you can take in your daily life in our highly developed societies, and vaccines don't drop even that risk. We have had exactly 0 cases for preschool children of developing "long term covid" symptoms and other unpleasant developments. If I'm not protecting others by vaccinating, and arguably the vaccines do pretty much nothing to protect me, what's the point of me taking the vaccine? If there would be a single benefit, I will take the booster shot, but I see absolutely no benefit as it stands. This is however based on the preliminary reports and just me thinking out loud. As I said, I'm fully vaccinated until end of January or so, and I have to make a decision until then.

My wife got the vaccine, and I didn't for many of the reasons you describe. At the end of the day the real science is the lethality rate. It's not particularly high, but it looks like that when it happens all at once - like a plane crash. Exponentially more people are dying from things other than COVID, every second of every day, and we know nothing about it. 160k people die each day, all over the globe, every day.

I've survived all kinds of things that probably should have (or could have) killed me. One day, I won't. Maybe it's a car crash, maybe it's an aneurism, maybe it will be COVID. I got over fear of death a long time ago. I'm not in any hurry, mind you; I'm just not afraid of it.

At least your honest. Just don’t receive an ICU bed in case you get real sick.

The ICU beds are filled here. The doctors and nurses haven’t had a day off in 3 weeks. More of the unvaccinated should just die at home.

Quoted so everyone can see what a real piece of shit your are, Chuck. Why on earth would any human desire that for another? You're the "empathy" thread guy?

Here is my empathy, get a free vaccine for yourself and others.

TSherbs
August 20th, 2021, 05:20 PM
but now it seems like vaccines don't help in that regard whatsoever.


Your interpretation of what vaccines do for both individuals and larger communities is skewed. Perhaps there has been very little transmission where you live. I don't know. Maybe you've just been lucky. I am in Maine, in the states. Our current climbing Covid hospitalizations (spiking) are 96+% among the unvaccinated, and the rate of hospitalization among the young had doubled (IIRC). Deaths, fortunately, remain "low" in my state, but mortality is not the only statistic that matters, it is only the most dire one. The vaccinated persons in my state (69% of persons eligible) are not the ones being hospitalized. Yes, it appears that they may still carry equivalent viral loads, but that is very different from saying that the vaccine has no effect on others: it has the effect of strongly protecting an enormous swath of the population from hospitalization for serious illness (and often unnecessary death). If we could ask the millions who have died if they would have preferred having been given quite good hospitalization and mortality protection through a vaccine, do you really think that those families would have said, "Nah"?



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TSherbs
August 20th, 2021, 05:33 PM
Quoted so everyone can see what a real piece of shit your are, Chuck. Why on earth would any human desire that for another? You're the "empathy" thread guy?

This, from one of the great douchebags of the back pages?

You actually know better, yet you still troll your shit back here. You never walk away from stupid tit for tat, you claim to be objective when you are not, and you openly express the pleasure of giving people grief. You even brag how nasty you can be, like a threat.

Chuck has actually been trying to be better. He used to be way more caustic. You haven't changed a smidgeon. Fuck off and troll someone other than a grandfather
whose grandchild was recently sick.

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TSherbs
August 20th, 2021, 05:46 PM
Adhoc, you quoted very low hospitalization rates, but what if they could be made ten times better through widespread vaccine use? How is going from "my chances are good" to "my chances are really, really good, and so are the chances of my neighbors, even the elderly ones, if enough of us get vaccinated"? That is a strong argument for me, the idea of pulling together and acting as a larger, more coordinated mass to reduce unwanted physical suffering (and death).

I wish the government would fine the unvaccinated, like hitting smokers with taxes on cigarettes, etc.



auto correct is a pain....

grainweevil
August 21st, 2021, 01:47 AM
I am amazed how many people can't grasp that mortality rates are low because health care resources are available to treat people. If those resources are over-whelmed and that is no longer the case, people who would have previously survived, start to die. Therefore there would seem to be an obvious benefit to the wider community in greatly reducing your likelihood of needing those health care resources.

adhoc
August 21st, 2021, 02:17 AM
I'm not talking about public in general, I'm talking about me, my personal thoughts if I personally would benefit from a booster shot. Data now indicates that;
1) I DO NOT protect others around me by being vaccinated
2) I WILL NOT have severe covid outcome with or without the vaccine

So my dilemma is do I get the third shot for me, me alone, my personal being, in my specific scenario.

Vaccination benefits for public in general are clear. That's not the question.

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 03:48 AM
No man is an island unto himself, Adhoc.

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grainweevil
August 21st, 2021, 04:11 AM
I'm not talking about public in general, I'm talking about me...

My apologies. I thought you wrote all this in previous posts...


If the vaccine protected people around me this would be a no brainer...


If there would be a single benefit, I will take the booster shot...


The only reason we got vaccinated was for others around us, but now it seems like vaccines don't help in that regard whatsoever.

...and meant it. But I forget; YOU WILL NOT get severe symptoms from Covid. Amazing good fortune on your part; congrats. Would that we all had such a guarantee.

dneal
August 21st, 2021, 05:39 AM
Quoted so everyone can see what a real piece of shit your are, Chuck. Why on earth would any human desire that for another? You're the "empathy" thread guy?

This, from one of the great douchebags of the back pages?

You actually know better, yet you still troll your shit back here. You never walk away from stupid tit for tat, you claim to be objective when you are not, and you openly express the pleasure of giving people grief. You even brag how nasty you can be, like a threat.

Chuck has actually been trying to be better. He used to be way more caustic. You haven't changed a smidgeon. Fuck off and troll someone other than a grandfather
whose grandchild was recently sick.

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Fuck you too, you self-righteous douchebag. Show me where I wished someone would die. You hypocritical fuck-sticks live in an alternate universe. Everyone who disagrees with your “facts” needs to leave, go away, shut up and now apparently die.

Point out how fucking horrible you people are, by simply quoting the shit that flows out of your pieholes, and I’m the asshole…. Yep, an alternate universe.

adhoc
August 21st, 2021, 06:16 AM
My apologies. I thought you wrote all this in previous posts...


If the vaccine protected people around me this would be a no brainer...


If there would be a single benefit, I will take the booster shot...


The only reason we got vaccinated was for others around us, but now it seems like vaccines don't help in that regard whatsoever.

...and meant it. But I forget; YOU WILL NOT get severe symptoms from Covid. Amazing good fortune on your part; congrats. Would that we all had such a guarantee.


No man is an island unto himself, Adhoc.

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I'm sorry, am I not speaking English? What is the fundamental misunderstanding here? I said that in light of recent data stating that vaccinated people DO NOT (do not, I repeat do not, as in not doing, the opposite of do, the reciprocal value of positive) protect others because they transmit the virus EXACTLY THE SAME as unvaccinated people, and since the vaccine does not do anything to protect ME either, then I am questioning what is the point?

Is this now understandable? Do you understand the point that US CDC stated that vaccinated people transmit COVID EXACTLY THE SAME as unvaccinated people do?

Do you understand that me getting a booster shot DOES NOT (!!!!!!) do anything to protect others around me or me? What's the point then? Do you understand the question now?

Chuck Naill
August 21st, 2021, 06:39 AM
Yes it does. Doing everything you can to help is the right thing to do.

You get a vaccine to first protect yourself and others. The ICU beds in Alabama are taken and taken by mostly unvaccinated people. There has been an increase of pediatric patients. The tragedy is that these children under 12 cannot receive a vaccine. Where are they contracting? From their unvaccinated family members, schools, general population? How do you justify your actions if it harms a six year old child. Is Donald Trump really that important?

Secondly, wear a mask and social distance.
.
There are people who cannot receive a vaccine for various reason, but those who can should.

And for God's sake, stop being critical of medical people with expertise.

From a year ago account of an ICU nurse
https://twitter.com/JodiOrth/status/1327771329555292162?s=20

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 06:39 AM
Nevermind, Adhoc. You asked for other points of view, you got some.

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adhoc
August 21st, 2021, 07:14 AM
Meh, I give up. It's clear to me my English is not good enough to convey the message that US CDC stated vaccines do nothing to slow the spread of the virus, only protect those at risk.

I didn't get an opinion here, I'm talking to a speaker with prerecorded message on repeat.

I'll see what my doctor says when I'll be eligible for a booster shot and follow her advice.

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 07:15 AM
You actually know better, yet you still troll your shit back here. You never walk away from stupid tit for tat, you claim to be objective when you are not, and you openly express the pleasure of giving people grief. You even brag how nasty you can be, like a threat.



Fuck you too, you self-righteous douchebag. Show me where I wished someone would die.

Since I did not accuse you of this, why would I bother?

Your asshole-ishness comes in other varieties, which I listed.

And for the record, I have never claimed that liberals are better than conservatives, or anything generalized like that. My criticism has been about Trump and supporting that man (and *some* of his policies). I am always specific. I post many legit news items on the topics of the threads, and people are free to disagree with them. I am very critical of The Big Lie, and I will not stop calling it that and denigrating it. I will not stop calling people (adults, with working brains) "fools" who believe the lie. If this truth-telling is a form of "self-righteousness," do be it. I am guilty of a zealous protection of truth. This is what the gross mendacity of Trump has done to me.

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adhoc
August 21st, 2021, 07:21 AM
Yes it does. Doing everything you can to help is the right thing to do.

You get a vaccine to first protect yourself and others. The ICU beds in Alabama are taken and taken by mostly unvaccinated people. There has been an increase of pediatric patients. The tragedy is that these children under 12 cannot receive a vaccine. Where are they contracting? From their unvaccinated family members, schools, general population? How do you justify your actions if it harms a six year old child. Is Donald Trump really that important?

Secondly, wear a mask and social distance.
.
There are people who cannot receive a vaccine for various reason, but those who can should.

And for God's sake, stop being critical of medical people with expertise.

From a year ago account of an ICU nurse
https://twitter.com/JodiOrth/status/1327771329555292162?s=20

I'm not american, I don't give a fuck about Trump, and I care even less about your precious beloved politician of choice. I don't give a fuck about your politics and I don't make my health choices with your stupid president in mind. This isn't a discussion of politics, it's very simple to me: it's about vaccines, and in light of new data there's an interesting discussion to be had, as we were all hopeful vaccines would stop the spread, but it's clear now they DON'T.

No wonder you people hate each other, you can't separate politics from ANYTHING, not even vaccines. What a strange culture, seriously! Jesus fucking Christ!

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 07:24 AM
I didn't get an opinion here, I'm talking to a speaker with prerecorded message on repeat.

wow, that's rather obnoxious to say to people who were trying to be thoughtful with you

You asked, "Am I missing something?" Some persons replied, yes, and explained. And now you insult them for those sincere replies to your question.

If you didn't want a "yes" reply, why did you post the question?



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adhoc
August 21st, 2021, 07:31 AM
Nobody explained anything. You all ignored the new evidence I posted and proceeded to attack me, as if I'm absurd to even think about considering it, even though it's coming from your official channels.

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 07:38 AM
And Adhoc, your English is just fine. Loud and clear, as we say.

It was pretty clear to me that Chuck doesn't know where you live and was conflating you with other posters here. You weren't saying where you live, that I recall. The posters replying to you are mostly in the US, where we are suffering a 4th wave of illness, 90% of which is among unvaccinated persons. There is MUCH tension over this because some hospitals here are overflowing and the rate of illness in children is rising. It is a national problem here, not just an individual one. And being vaccinated helps (tremendously) on the national scale, which you agree is true.

That is all that we have been saying.

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TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 07:42 AM
Nobody explained anything.

I explained my answers at length. That you reject them because they look at national epidemiological effects does not mean that I did not explain "anything." Again, why ask if you're just going to reject those who bring up a different point of view?



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dneal
August 21st, 2021, 08:02 AM
Meh, I give up. It's clear to me my English is not good enough to convey the message that US CDC stated vaccines do nothing to slow the spread of the virus, only protect those at risk.

I didn't get an opinion here, I'm talking to a speaker with prerecorded message on repeat.

I'll see what my doctor says when I'll be eligible for a booster shot and follow her advice.

Yep.

--edit--

By the way, your English is fine and you have conveyed everything quite clearly. You simply are now starting to see the matrix these guys live in. I'd comment on your other posts, but you get it. There's no thought, just narrative, updated daily through their "credible news sources". The partisanship in America has moved well beyond the absurd. It has devolved to basically toddlers throwing tantrums over whatever has them irritated in a particular moment; and their lack of awareness (both self and societal) is near incomprehensible.

Note that you really only see the leftist side here. That's why they assume I'm a "Trumpist" or "Trumpian" or whatever they term it. They can't conceive of independent thought. Anyway, the right is just as rabid and absurd; and were they here I would be a "leftie" or "progressive".

adhoc
August 21st, 2021, 08:11 AM
Nobody explained anything.

I explained my answers at length. That you reject them because they look at national epidemiological effects does not mean that I did not explain "anything." Again, why ask if you're just going to reject those who bring up a different point of view?



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Except you didn't. You told me how people are dying. And that's unfortunate, it really is. You also stated vaccines prevent death. And that's true. You stated that general populace being vaccinated translates to lower hospital load. And that is also true. None of these statements I ever doubted nor questioned.

My question wasn't "should an immunocompromised person get the vaccine?" or "do vaccines prevent difficult or terminal covid infections?". I asked what do people think for me, myself, me personally, in my personal situation, for myself, if I should get the booster shot, considering the vaccine neither protects me nor people around me (as new data showed). For this I was called selfish, a Trump supporter, etc.

I don't really understand why I have lost the privilege of even ever considering myself. I have to be honest the only reason I got the vaccine in the first place was to protect people around me. Now that that's no longer the case, as US CDC stated that even with the vaccine you can get easily infected and can easily (just as easily as non-vaccinated) transmit the disease, I don't see why should I, me personally, me for myself in my specific scenario, get the booster shot.

How is this question so difficult to grasp? There has got to be an issue with my communication or something I am missing, I do not know.

dneal
August 21st, 2021, 08:18 AM
How is this question so difficult to grasp? There has got to be an issue with my communication or something I am missing, I do not know.

It is not, and you are communicating fine. You are a rational person trying to converse with the irrational.

adhoc
August 21st, 2021, 08:24 AM
They can't conceive of independent thought. Anyway, the right is just as rabid and absurd; and were they here I would be a "leftie" or "progressive".

Seriously, this IS absurd! You can't even ask a question anymore. I clearly stated I am not decided yet, I'm just ASKING. You HAVE to belong to one side or the other and you must never, ever, even for a second, just ask a question. Both sides have pre-prepared answers to everything and you MUST conform to each and every narrative in everything pertaining to your life.

In my country, our president is a puppet, he's worthless, just a person to travel around and look nice with other leaders. Our president has NO power, absolutely NONE. We have a parliament and the parliament will typically consist of 6-7 political parties. So there's no bipartisanship, every elections you get a pamphlet and all of the political parties (~13-14 of them, typically) have their political plans lined out in there, typically these vary quite a lot in viewpoints and thoughts on various topics. Then you vote for the party you identify the most with. The party that gets the most votes gets first chance to form a coalition, but it has never happened that a single party would be able to do so on their own, as the coalition must be majority (>50% of the votes). Right now, 4 different political parties from a variety of political spectrum barely got together a majority coalition (>50%), and then there's 3-4 political parties that assembled "opposition".

This "us vs them" mentality is absolutely INSANE.

And even then, I do not understand why a person would idiolize a politician. He's a PUBLIC SERVANT and I'm paying for HIS salary. I'm his boss, not the other way around, and to even think for a second it's the other way around is such an absolutely alien concept to me.

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 08:30 AM
I don't really understand why I have lost the privilege of even ever considering myself. No one said this, adhoc.


How is this question so difficult to grasp? . It isn't. Your question was quite basic and straightforward: am I missing something?

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 08:35 AM
Seriously, this IS absurd! You can't even ask a question anymore.

<rollseyes>



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Chuck Naill
August 21st, 2021, 08:44 AM
Yes it does. Doing everything you can to help is the right thing to do.

You get a vaccine to first protect yourself and others. The ICU beds in Alabama are taken and taken by mostly unvaccinated people. There has been an increase of pediatric patients. The tragedy is that these children under 12 cannot receive a vaccine. Where are they contracting? From their unvaccinated family members, schools, general population? How do you justify your actions if it harms a six year old child. Is Donald Trump really that important?

Secondly, wear a mask and social distance.
.
There are people who cannot receive a vaccine for various reason, but those who can should.

And for God's sake, stop being critical of medical people with expertise.

From a year ago account of an ICU nurse
https://twitter.com/JodiOrth/status/1327771329555292162?s=20

I'm not american, I don't give a fuck about Trump, and I care even less about your precious beloved politician of choice. I don't give a fuck about your politics and I don't make my health choices with your stupid president in mind. This isn't a discussion of politics, it's very simple to me: it's about vaccines, and in light of new data there's an interesting discussion to be had, as we were all hopeful vaccines would stop the spread, but it's clear now they DON'T.

No wonder you people hate each other, you can't separate politics from ANYTHING, not even vaccines. What a strange culture, seriously! Jesus fucking Christ!

Did you read the linked post by an ICU nurse? I know you’re upset with me, but read it because it’s applicable.

No, we don’t go along to get along. And, yes politics is at the heart of why some have refused masks, social distance, and vaccines. The politicians know they will get the best care if they test positive, aka Trump’s own hospital experience is an example.
We have governors refusing funding if schools require masks.

It’s not strange in comparison to other cultures. We just have the freedom to express ourselves.

Chuck Naill
August 21st, 2021, 08:46 AM
They can't conceive of independent thought. Anyway, the right is just as rabid and absurd; and were they here I would be a "leftie" or "progressive".

Seriously, this IS absurd! You can't even ask a question anymore. I clearly stated I am not decided yet, I'm just ASKING. You HAVE to belong to one side or the other and you must never, ever, even for a second, just ask a question. Both sides have pre-prepared answers to everything and you MUST conform to each and every narrative in everything pertaining to your life.

In my country, our president is a puppet, he's worthless, just a person to travel around and look nice with other leaders. Our president has NO power, absolutely NONE. We have a parliament and the parliament will typically consist of 6-7 political parties. So there's no bipartisanship, every elections you get a pamphlet and all of the political parties (~13-14 of them, typically) have their political plans lined out in there, typically these vary quite a lot in viewpoints and thoughts on various topics. Then you vote for the party you identify the most with. The party that gets the most votes gets first chance to form a coalition, but it has never happened that a single party would be able to do so on their own, as the coalition must be majority (>50% of the votes). Right now, 4 different political parties from a variety of political spectrum barely got together a majority coalition (>50%), and then there's 3-4 political parties that assembled "opposition".

This "us vs them" mentality is absolutely INSANE.

And even then, I do not understand why a person would idiolize a politician. He's a PUBLIC SERVANT and I'm paying for HIS salary. I'm his boss, not the other way around, and to even think for a second it's the other way around is such an absolutely alien concept to me.

He did respond to your questions. I read his reply.

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 08:53 AM
Adhoc, vaccination helps even the young and healthy become seriously ill LESS OFTEN than those who are not vaccinated. In my country, those persons of your cohort (young, not vulnerable) who actually have been hospitalized are nearly all unvaccinated. It is just not true that vaccination "does nothing" even for healthy cohorts.

I keep saying do what you want. But you put your reasoning out here for comment, and you have begun whining about the responses. I have said three times now that you are free to decide what you want. So don't start whining again about group think or coersion or whatever. I simply think that you are in error in denying the efficacy of the vaccine, for all age groups thus far who have used it. Yes, some groups are at low risk. But none is at zero, and if the vaccine improves your cohort's predicted protection (even if at low risk to begin with), why not take it? IT WILL HELP THE ODDS THAT YOU STAY OUT OF THE HOSPITAL.



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Chuck Naill
August 21st, 2021, 09:00 AM
I’ve had three family members test positive including my daughter in law with mild symptoms. Her sister had it and was in and out of the hospital for weeks and is now one of the long haulers.

No one really knows who will be one of those who get really sick although age and co-morbidities play a role.

I had a tick bite in 2015 with symptoms lasting into the 3rd year. Not everyone has my experience.

So, if all I have to do it get stuck, and it’s free, what rational reason is there to avoid? This is what has me scratching my head.

adhoc
August 21st, 2021, 11:58 AM
I’ve had three family members test positive including my daughter in law with mild symptoms. Her sister had it and was in and out of the hospital for weeks and is now one of the long haulers.

No one really knows who will be one of those who get really sick although age and co-morbidities play a role.

I had a tick bite in 2015 with symptoms lasting into the 3rd year. Not everyone has my experience.

So, if all I have to do it get stuck, and it’s free, what rational reason is there to avoid? This is what has me scratching my head.

Ticks can be extremely nasty. They can put you in coma, can kill you, can give you brain swelling, ... My country has one of the highest forest coverage in Europe and some of the most ticks per capita in the world. Vaccines against ticks (there are two diseases, I don't know what they're called in English) are extremely common. My employer paid those vaccines for me at our regular health checkup.

If a vaccine does nothing for you, then why would you take it? Again, would you take a vaccine against malaria?


Adhoc, vaccination helps even the young and healthy become seriously ill LESS OFTEN than those who are not vaccinated. In my country, those persons of your cohort (young, not vulnerable) who actually have been hospitalized are nearly all unvaccinated. It is just not true that vaccination "does nothing" even for healthy cohorts.

Right, almost all of them are unvaccinated, I believe that. But here's the thing: how many <40s that aren't obese or have other serious medical conditions had issues? I can tell you about my country, we're very pedantic with tracking data, not a single under 40 year old has been hospitalized for COVID without having some serious other issues (cancer patient, obesity, organ transplants, etc.).

I don't know why I wouldn't take the third shot, I probably will anyway (I'm 70-80% about it), but that doesn't mean I can't think about it anymore.


Did you read the linked post by an ICU nurse? I know you’re upset with me, but read it because it’s applicable.

No, we don’t go along to get along. And, yes politics is at the heart of why some have refused masks, social distance, and vaccines. The politicians know they will get the best care if they test positive, aka Trump’s own hospital experience is an example.
We have governors refusing funding if schools require masks.

It’s not strange in comparison to other cultures. We just have the freedom to express ourselves.

You're making all kind of assumptions about me. I'm just thinking out loud here "what is the point?". From this, you deduced I don't wear a mask (I do, religiously almost even, always and everywhere). You deduced I'm a Trump supporter, that I need to read about insane people who fanatically believe COVID is a lie, etc. I understand our interactions are skewed because we've been limited to online for past 2 years and all online discourse is on a lower level as personal, but god damn, this is a lot. I know there are insane people out there. My question is really very simple, it has no hidden meaning, I have no agenda, I'm really quite sane.

What is there in it for me? For example, when I got my first shots, I got it to protect others around me. That was a good enough reason for me. But since this reason seems to be out of the window (the research is not yet peer reviewed though!), I'm thinking about what's the point. That's all.

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 12:33 PM
Right, almost all of them are unvaccinated, I believe that. But here's the thing: how many <40s that aren't obese or have other serious medical conditions had issues? I can tell you about my country, we're very pedantic with tracking data, not a single under 40 year old has been hospitalized for COVID without having some serious other issues (cancer patient, obesity, organ transplants, etc.).

This is not true in our country, where the data set is MUCH larger, nor elsewhere in the world:


Data from one study shows that of more than 3,000 adults ages 18 to 34 who contracted COVID-19 and became sick enough to require hospital care, 21% ended up in intensive care, 10% were placed on a breathing machine and 2.7% died.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2770542 (Journal of American Medicine)

https://www.paho.org/en/news/5-5-2021-hospitalizations-and-deaths-younger-people-soar-due-covid-19-paho-director-reports (Hospitalizations of young people in Brazil)

Although these accounts/reports do not always make clear how many of the groups in question had no other health issues (many do), clearly not ALL of them do. And so, many many "healthy" young people have been getting very sick elsewhere in the world, if not in your country.

Like I said, maybe your community has been lucky. Mine has been lucky, but "luck" is not a great health strategy. But you are free to do as you wish.

Chuck Naill
August 21st, 2021, 12:36 PM
@adhoc, everything I write is not directed at you. I am trying to explain my reasoning.

Regarding ticks, Rocky Mountain and Lyme from Deer Tick were what I was tested for with negative results. I never took any after an intial course of doxicycline.

Empty_of_Clouds
August 21st, 2021, 03:17 PM
There's no point using malaria as a counter example. For one, there isn't an effective vaccine yet, and for two it's not a global issue yet (maybe after the planet warms up a bit). So, no, if a malaria vaccine was available I wouldn't find it necessary right now because I live in a country where malaria isn't an issue. However, if that changed or when I am travelling to a country where malaria is rife then yes I am going to take whatever is available to protect myself from the worst ravages of the infection.

The history of vaccines is well known, getting quite long, and shows remarkable success in protecting populations and at times even effectively making some infectious diseases extinct, like polio.

Covid-19 is here and it's here now. There is no reliable prediction model for how an individual will react to exposure, with responses ranging anywhere between no symptoms and death. Likelihood of worse symptoms are higher in those with compromised immune systems. Transmission is rapid, especially for the d-variant. The current crop of vaccines significantly reduce the likelihood of an infection taking hold, and significantly reduce the severity of symptoms if you're unlucky enough to be a breakthrough case - all according to expert sources (CDC, WHO, NFID etc.) and not opinions.

With the last paragraph in mind it would seem to be a no-brainer that everyone who can should get vaccinated.

TSherbs
August 21st, 2021, 03:59 PM
Adhoc seems to have parsed his own case down to a sub-cohort of healthy young people for whom the vaccine has "no efficacy whatsoever" (this is, of course, false-- the vaccines have been shown to reduce illness in all age groups). His rational seems based on the information that not a single "healthy" sub-40 yr old in his country has been hospitalized. That is, of course, not true for the rest of the world. I recommended that he see the efficacy of the vaccine from a broader sample cohort, but, whatever. Maybe he'll take his chances. He is certainly not the only one doing so (hospitals have been filling up with these chancers here in the US). Actually, the original question was only about the booster. Why anyone wouldn't follow up with a free booster is beyond me--unless they have had a history of adverse reactions with greater risks than the disease. Which he has not attested to.

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Empty_of_Clouds
August 21st, 2021, 06:50 PM
The other thing that baffles me is that every medical intervention - surgical, pharmaceutical and so on - carries the risk of an adverse event, and yet people are being picky over the vaccines while simultaneously shovelling other medications in or having other medical procedures without qualm.

adhoc
August 22nd, 2021, 02:00 AM
The point of malaria wasn't that malaria is comparable to covid, but just an example of a vaccine you don't really need. Feel free to substitute it with any other vaccine you have never gotten and the point stands.

I appreciate your thoughts, but I have both gotten covid and am fully vaccinated against it. I really don't think the answer to needing the booster is as clear as you think it is. My final decision will anyway fall based on my personal doctor advice, as I trust her.

EoC: I always think about medications and procedures, as I know they can all leave side effects, and choose depending on risk/reward ratio.

Empty_of_Clouds
August 22nd, 2021, 02:43 AM
Unfortunately the Covid vaccine is very much needed.

As for boosters... If the evidence says the booster is not needed (i.e. does not provide any additional benefit) then I imagine that govt will not promote it, but until then as the risk of adverse events with vaccines tends to be vanishingly small I will take the booster.

My final decision will be based on what the authorities advise. My GP is hardly an authority on infectious diseases. Perhaps yours is.


I mean no disrespect by saying any of this, simply expressing how I feel (strongly as it happens) about vaccinations. If it hadn't been for that complete criminal dickhead Andrew Wakefield, and the subsequent uptake by the conspiracy arseholes, we wouldn't be in this situation where ordinary members of the public believe that reading stuff on the internet makes them experts on almost any subject without qualification. This is particularly insidious with health and wellbeing, probably because we are so interested in ourselves. You don't tend to see someone take their car to the garage with a problem and say 'I've done my research, I think it's the cam belt and I recommend this solution', and yet they feel quite justified in doing this with their healthcare practitioners. Quite baffling and disturbing.

adhoc
August 22nd, 2021, 03:25 AM
Right, I agree with what you wrote. But my question was about the booster shot, not vaccines in general. And it's really not as clear cut as people here state it is. Only a month ago, WHO and CDC and ECDC were against booster shots. They're still not approved in my country. I believe USA now has approved booster shots only very recently; few days ago or so.

In my country booster shots were so far given only to a dozen or so severely immunocompromised hospital patients, noone else.

By February, when I'll be eligible for a booster shot, these questions will likely be ironed out.

Empty_of_Clouds
August 22nd, 2021, 04:25 AM
Quite, agreed.

As I stated before, I will take (or not) the booster shot under advisement from the relevant authorities.

TSherbs
August 22nd, 2021, 05:49 AM
Part of the national decision-making about approving booster shots is governed by how many doses are still available for the unvaccinated. The question then also becomes how is the general population best served if the vaccine supply is limited.

Chuck Naill
August 22nd, 2021, 06:19 AM
Yesterday, in the US ,I vaguely remember hearing one millon Americans were vaccinated. I think folks are finally realizing something, but I am not sure what. Maybe they are listening to the experts and noticing that doing nothing is not rational.

I agree and I've mentioned the damage Wakefield did regarding vaccines, but what's really sad is that most are too lazy to followup and know his information was invalid.

Thank you @empty_of_clouds for your perspective.

adhoc
August 22nd, 2021, 06:51 AM
Wakefield is a particularly disgusting figure. Hbomberguy did an amazing video, but it's long. Nearly a full feature length video, but I took the time to watch it. It's really unbelievable. Wakefield in the end tortured children, some handicapped for life, to prove (which he couldn't so he just faked data in the end) his statements. I think majority of people don't know even 10% of what this guy did.

As said, the video is long, but I really enjoyed it. I don't particularly like hbomberguy, he's quite suggestive in his statements and not at all impartial, but all of the data presented is researched and sourced.

https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc

Just for information, in my country it's the left wing that is antivax, and right wing is mostly vaccinated. That said, left and right have a substantially different meaning here than it does in USA, but I think the information might be interesting anyway. Basically the left think it's unfreedom like, and the right take it as their patriotic duty to their country and fellow countrymen.

TSherbs
August 22nd, 2021, 07:06 AM
Yesterday, in the US ,I vaguely remember hearing one millon Americans were vaccinated. I think folks are finally realizing something, but I am not sure what.

"Oh, shit, this virus might actually hurt *me*"

or

"Gee, I guess the vaccine actually does what the trials suggested it would do."

Chuck Naill
August 22nd, 2021, 08:10 AM
Yesterday, in the US ,I vaguely remember hearing one millon Americans were vaccinated. I think folks are finally realizing something, but I am not sure what.

"Oh, shit, this virus might actually hurt *me*"

or

"Gee, I guess the vaccine actually does what the trials suggested it would do."

There has to be some of that behind the surge to get vaccinated. Perhaps some are thinking of the greater good. Maybe others are thinking that the risk of the vaccine is less than the risk of contracting COVID-19. Who knows why humanity acts at it does.

TSherbs
August 22nd, 2021, 10:15 AM
News item on Facebook article about Dr's death and possible influence of social media on vaccine doubt:
NPR: Facebook's Most Viewed Article In Early 2021 Raised Doubt About COVID Vaccine.
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/21/1030038616/facebooks-most-viewed-article-in-early-2021-raised-doubt-about-covid-vaccine?ft=nprml&f=1006

All that matters is clicks and views.

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TSherbs
August 22nd, 2021, 11:12 AM
And now Phil Valentine has also died.

USA TODAY: Phil Valentine, Tennessee radio host who was a vaccine skeptic, dies of COVID at 61.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/08/22/phil-valentine-radio-host-vaccine-skeptic-dies-covid/8234158002/

Get vaccinated, folks. And don't suggest to other people not to.

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TSherbs
August 22nd, 2021, 11:24 AM
And the news that Rev. Jesse Jackson and his wife, both vaccinated back in January, have both tested positive and have been hospitalized, is a reminder that being vaccinated is never an impenetrable shield and that we all must continue to use our masks and distancing if we wish to do what we can to protect ourselves and our families. I have not yet stopped wearing my mask in any store that I enter: 17 months and counting.

And I will be teaching in a mask and cleaning desk surfaces multiple times a day.

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Chuck Naill
August 22nd, 2021, 11:34 AM
Texas governor credits the vaccine for his recent recovery.

Chuck Naill
August 28th, 2021, 06:02 AM
I've just read that three unvaccinated Florida teachers died in one day. Also, one teaching assistant died.

TSherbs
August 28th, 2021, 08:06 AM
I've just read that three unvaccinated Florida teachers died in one day. Also, one teaching assistant died.Yes, but I'm pretty sure that they happened to contract the virus over the summer outside of school. The headlines I saw about this were irresponsibly suggestive of it being related to the return of school.

Unless there are more different cases that I am not aware of.

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dneal
August 28th, 2021, 01:49 PM
I've just read that three unvaccinated Florida teachers died in one day. Also, one teaching assistant died.

Roughly 165k people die around the globe every day, for all sorts of reasons. Why are these any more important than the others?

Chuck Naill
August 28th, 2021, 02:33 PM
I've just read that three unvaccinated Florida teachers died in one day. Also, one teaching assistant died.

Roughly 165k people die around the globe every day, for all sorts of reasons. Why are these any more important than the others?

Like you,‘unvaccinated.

Linger
August 29th, 2021, 02:06 AM
Roughly 165k people die around the globe every day, for all sorts of reasons. Why are these any more important than the others?

Because dying of covid is largely, not wholly, preventable by vaccination.

My mother died of a pulmonary embolism, caused by a deep vain thrombosis after a long haul flight from Djakarta to Amsterdam. If she knew then what we all know now, (e.g. airlines now inform and instruct you to continuously hydrate yourself and move around the plane periodically), her death at that time might have been avoidable.

That part of it hurts more than accepting the inevitability of nature’s law that children bring their parent to their grave. It might have been avoidable.

Taking the vaccine for me is the same thing. You follow medical science’s recommendations to avoid unnecessary health risks for yourself and in this case also for others.

TSherbs
August 29th, 2021, 05:23 AM
Roughly 165k people die around the globe every day, for all sorts of reasons. Why are these any more important than the others?

What a troll question.



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TSherbs
August 29th, 2021, 05:28 AM
So, apparently, some people will avoid the vaccine but will trust a drug meant for livestock:

WFLA: Spike in poisonings from livestock deworming drug reported in Florida.


https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/spike-in-poisonings-from-livestock-deworming-drug-reported-in-florida/

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dneal
August 29th, 2021, 05:32 AM
That's not the question I asked. Why are those COVID deaths Chuck references any more important than the non-COVID deaths? Pretty much any of them are preventable too. Child drowns in tub? Preventable. Polio (yes, we still have that)? Preventable. Head injury? Fall? Electrocution? Pretty much all preventable. Which one do we pick? There are so many. Fire, tuberculosis, malaria, meningitis, HIV/AIDS, drug overdose, malnutrition and starvation, the list goes on. You could argue that the overwhelming majority are preventable.

You can transmit the virus if you are vaccinated or not.
You can contract the virus if you are vaccinated or not.
You can die from the virus if you are vaccinated or not.

Which of those is untrue?

Oh, since we're doing family anecdotes, my 77 year old mother, her 78 year old husband and her 72 year old brother all contracted COVID last year. Worst was her, and she lied in bed with flu-like symptoms for a week. Her husband went 3 days without playing golf. Her brother (previous stroke, previous heart attack, overweight, etc...) was the one we thought it would kill, but he was just "feeling puny" for a week. None of them had any treatment.

Not enough? Want more examples of "medical science"? My wife's aunt (71 and pushing 400 lbs) was sick for about 10 days. No medical treatment. Her husband? 72 and identical to all the rest, although he did experience the taste/smell problem for about a month.

What are the long term effects for them? What are the long term effects for the vaccine? What does the "medical science" say? Nothing worthwhile, because we simply don't know. Which "medical science"? At what time did we ever shut down competing medical opinions? Until COVID, "second opinions" were expected and even encouraged. You people have let fear-mongers manipulate you, and you have happily adopted one perspective and condemn anyone who disagrees (not to mention their "science").

Is COVID deadly? Sure. So is a piece of bad chicken. In the U.S., we're at around 1.8% case fatality rate currently. That percentage drops as we discover more people with the antibody, who apparently were infected with mild to no symptoms. Why do you not include those in your anecdotes? I know, it's much more fun to wave your torches and pitchforks at them while you yell "SUPERSPREADER".

None of you who like to shout "science" seem to understand how it works. There are competing hypotheses and different scientists disagree about what we do and do not know. Their fucking job is to try to prove or disprove various hypotheses and develop a theory. You can't do that when you declare any scientist not named Fauci as a spreader of misinformation.

Was Sweden's model correct? What about Israel's? Was one better than the other? Does it depend on region and culture, or is there one blanket solution? We don't know. I don't know, and you don't know. Yet you (and apparently Chuck) insist you do, and not only that; you know better.

We're all going to die. One day you will be one of those 165k. One day I will too. Does it really matter what the cause was labeled as when you're dead? It's more important for me to live, knowing that the inevitable is waiting patiently. I'm certainly not going to run around biting my nails speculating about all the things that could kill me. How many people have died in car accidents on the way to get their COVID shot? What about that small percentage of people who died from the vaccine? Talk about irony.

--edit--

Just ran across this. Things that make you go hmmmm.

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