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dneal
September 5th, 2021, 10:17 AM
I readily admit to being just as big of a jackass as anyone on this board. I apologize. I incorrectly believed through consistent escalation, I could deescalate. A form of chicken, so to speak. I say chicken. Again, my apologies.

So, I thought we might go ahead and try something less caustic. An experiment, if you will; to bring more posters into this oftentimes hostile place and see if we can make it less so.

I am genuinely curious about individual's personal choices regarding vaccination, if we can respectfully share and not introduce the judgement and vitriol. Maybe a baby-step to civility.

I thought about the vaccine long and hard, and my risk-reward calculus (to me and the public) did not require it. The virus struck at the same time I retired. Reducing contact reduces transmission. My normal retirement lifestyle easily accommodates that, and now is messing around a half a dozen acres with a tractor and a chainsaw. Every day is a closet full of "perfect Saturdays" to choose from. Is that a day enjoying the sunshine and mowing a couple of those acres and sipping a few ice cold beers? Smoking a brisket? Is it lounging around, Big Lebowski style, with a White Russian in hand? Whatever it is, I can usually do it. My life is about as close to perfect as it gets. Content is an understatement.

I'm a healthy 50-something. The odds of COVID killing me (and honestly, I believe I had it last year) are astronomically small. I run exponentially greater risk from the tractor and chainsaw, or driving up to the gas station for no-contact with anyone fuel. My immediate family comes and goes, I do drive down to my brother's house (he's retired too, about 15 minutes away) on occasion. I keep masks on hand. When places I go ask to wear one, I do. I generally play the game. The risk I pose or am exposed to is miniscule.

I'm honestly tired of being stuck with "experimental" or "emergency" stuff too. I've had all the standard stuff you get, to include for going overseas. I've had the Anthrax series. I just found a most recent shot record as I was weeding through old paperwork, and apparently was vaccinated for H1N1 too. I had Lyme disease 30-some years ago. The thought of adding one more thing that could lie lurking, and complicating closer to end of life quality and care is an important consideration to me.

My wife is the one who does the social things and runs to town to get groceries, etc... She thought long and hard and chose to get vaccinated, and her risk reward calculus was different. Her concerns are documented. Variations of thrombosis in particular, but she can list a whole bunch that are important to her. She knows her medical history as well as anyone, and it's her body. Ultimately, like in my case too, life. Her view was that her frequency of contact with random people warranted it, for her benefit and theirs. It also mitigates risk in my risk-reward calculus.

I agree with her calculus, and she agrees with mine - even though we didn't get the same answer - because we're reasonable people.

Other's thoughts would be appreciated.

kazoolaw
September 5th, 2021, 04:34 PM
This story seems like a tasty blend of Covid, Ivermectin, and media trustworthiness.

Rolling Stone published an article saying that emergency rooms in Oklahoma were overcrowded with Ivermectin overdose patients, preventing other patients including gunshot victims from receiving treatment.

Apparently it's completely made up. You can find many of the posts here
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1434591443855753220.html
And here
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-05/social-media-buzz-rolling-stone-story-guinea-coup-shang-chi
Note: I make no claim for either of these links but that they supply a number of links on the topic.

Assuming the original RS story is false, why publish it at all?

Chuck Naill
September 5th, 2021, 06:56 PM
Not trying to be difficult, but if want to apologize, just include yourself. Take full responsibility for your actions. Your OP was more like, “I’m an ass like others”.

dneal
September 5th, 2021, 07:51 PM
Not trying to be difficult, but if want to apologize, just include yourself. Take full responsibility for your actions. Your OP was more like, “I’m an ass like others”.

People can make their own decisions on who is what. I don’t apologize for others. They can do that if they want.

Chuck Naill
September 5th, 2021, 09:14 PM
Not trying to be difficult, but if want to apologize, just include yourself. Take full responsibility for your actions. Your OP was more like, “I’m an ass like others”.

People can make their own decisions on who is what. I don’t apologize for others. They can do that if they want.

Didn’t ask you to apologize for others. Own your own problems . No need to make it sound like others are the same as you .

TFarnon
September 6th, 2021, 12:52 AM
Based on the demographics of the patients I "see" who have severe COVID symptoms, and the extreme transmissibility of the delta strain, I say get the shot. There is no other risk calculus. Seriously. You don't know who is carrying this plague, and who will inadvertently infect you. By "seeing" these patients, I mean scanning down the ER board to see what kind of a testing load I might have over the next hour, and what kind of results and tests to watch for. The additional information I get as I do this is age and sex. You are in a prime demographic for severe COVID. Your current state of health reduces your risk of being on a ventilator, but that's not a risk I would be willing to take. And after combing through one patient's need to determine that patient's need for transfusion, if I hadn't already had the vaccine, I would have knocked people down to get the shot. I didn't want to look at or find horrifying information, but I found it only looking for the potential for more transfusions. In short, your risk is higher than you think it is. It isn't astronomically high, but still high enough to make the shot a prudent choice.

And after last night's shift at work, in a hospital already overloaded because it's September, with nurses now spread between 3 ICU patients when they should only have one, and a testing load that shot through the roof, anything anyone can do to stay out of the hospital right now is a good thing. That even means no ATV riding, no skateboarding, no "Here, hold mah beer" antics, no hunting, no distracted driving, reduced driving whenever possible, no getting on the roof to fix something, no getting falling-down drunk, no swallowing pencils, no cooking hash butter, no gatherings with small children, no going maskless in any public area inside or outside, no juggling chainsaws and anything else that carries a substantial risk of illness or injury. And be careful on stairs! My next shift starts Monday at noon, and I can only hope that I'm physically and mentally sufficiently recovered to deal with it.

You may think that your choices only affect you, but if something happens to you requiring medical attention, you have now put an even greater burden on the providers who will be involved in your care. Get the shot.

TFarnon
September 6th, 2021, 12:57 AM
I'm behind the scenes in the lab, in another state. Ivermectin or no ivermectin, COVID or no COVID, it doesn't matter right now. It's September, which means hospitals the world over are slammed with a heavy patient load. I don't know why September, but that's the way it is and has been for years, perhaps decades. There isn't a question of who gets treated first--the Ivermectin overdose, the esophageal varices due to alcoholic cirrhosis, the shattered femurs from a head-on car crash or the gunshot wound. Which STAT is the most STAT? I sure as hell don't have time to worry about that. At this point, it's first-come, first-served in a frantic rush to get it all done in something resembling a timely fashion.

Pendragon
September 6th, 2021, 02:38 AM
You may think that your choices only affect you, but if something happens to you requiring medical attention, you have now put an even greater burden on the providers who will be involved in your care. Get the shot.
I know a number of people who chose not to get vaccinated. If others didn't push them so hard to get it, these folks likely would have been vaxxed a long time ago. After hearing about all the Delta breakthrough cases and speculation that a third shot might be needed, I wish I had not got the vaccine. It appears that it was a waste of time.

If the vaccines work so well, then why do vaccinated people still have to wear masks? If the vaccines don't work, then why get them in the first place? Those aren't rhetorical questions, by the way.

dneal
September 6th, 2021, 05:36 AM
Not trying to be difficult, but if want to apologize, just include yourself. Take full responsibility for your actions. Your OP was more like, “I’m an ass like others”.

People can make their own decisions on who is what. I don’t apologize for others. They can do that if they want.

Didn’t ask you to apologize for others. Own your own problems . No need to make it sound like others are the same as you .

Chuck, I appreciate your efforts to not be difficult. I suspect we will reach no agreement on this side issue. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to other members of the forum if you tailored your remarks more closely to the topic?

dneal
September 6th, 2021, 05:47 AM
Based on the demographics of the patients I "see" who have severe COVID symptoms, and the extreme transmissibility of the delta strain, I say get the shot. There is no other risk calculus. Seriously. You don't know who is carrying this plague, and who will inadvertently infect you. By "seeing" these patients, I mean scanning down the ER board to see what kind of a testing load I might have over the next hour, and what kind of results and tests to watch for. The additional information I get as I do this is age and sex. You are in a prime demographic for severe COVID. Your current state of health reduces your risk of being on a ventilator, but that's not a risk I would be willing to take. And after combing through one patient's need to determine that patient's need for transfusion, if I hadn't already had the vaccine, I would have knocked people down to get the shot. I didn't want to look at or find horrifying information, but I found it only looking for the potential for more transfusions. In short, your risk is higher than you think it is. It isn't astronomically high, but still high enough to make the shot a prudent choice.

And after last night's shift at work, in a hospital already overloaded because it's September, with nurses now spread between 3 ICU patients when they should only have one, and a testing load that shot through the roof, anything anyone can do to stay out of the hospital right now is a good thing. That even means no ATV riding, no skateboarding, no "Here, hold mah beer" antics, no hunting, no distracted driving, reduced driving whenever possible, no getting on the roof to fix something, no getting falling-down drunk, no swallowing pencils, no cooking hash butter, no gatherings with small children, no going maskless in any public area inside or outside, no juggling chainsaws and anything else that carries a substantial risk of illness or injury. And be careful on stairs! My next shift starts Monday at noon, and I can only hope that I'm physically and mentally sufficiently recovered to deal with it.

You may think that your choices only affect you, but if something happens to you requiring medical attention, you have now put an even greater burden on the providers who will be involved in your care. Get the shot.

While I appreciate your concern, and the insight into this curious September surge (I wonder if it aligns with "back to school" temporary societal changes... but who knows); I am not entirely clear on your decision process as to what you chose, but based on your other comments I assume it was to get vaccinated.

Chuck Naill
September 6th, 2021, 06:55 AM
You may think that your choices only affect you, but if something happens to you requiring medical attention, you have now put an even greater burden on the providers who will be involved in your care. Get the shot.
I know a number of people who chose not to get vaccinated. If others didn't push them so hard to get it, these folks likely would have been vaxxed a long time ago. After hearing about all the Delta breakthrough cases and speculation that a third shot might be needed, I wish I had not got the vaccine. It appears that it was a waste of time.

If the vaccines work so well, then why do vaccinated people still have to wear masks? If the vaccines don't work, then why get them in the first place? Those aren't rhetorical questions, by the way.

The vaccines have been shown to work and now the Pfizer one has an FDA approval. Booster shots are common for other vaccines and flu shots are given annually.

The reason to continue to wear a mask is because vaccinated people can carry and transmit the virus to others and especially children who are not cleared to receive a vaccine at this time.

In my family we've had three out of nine people contract the COVID-19 virus, two before vaccines were available. Interestingly, no one else were infected and the virus was mild.

One family member by marriage sister contracted the virus and spent to hospitializations and continue to have symptoms after 9 months.

I was bitten by a tick and had symptoms from 2015-2017 with a flair up in 2019. Infection courses and severity are different for everyone. I don't want to take a chance.

adhoc
September 6th, 2021, 08:25 AM
I'm a healthy 50-something. The odds of COVID killing me (and honestly, I believe I had it last year) are astronomically small.

The average age of hospitalization here is 55, down from 68 last year from original strain. You might not be as risk free as you think you are.


After hearing about all the Delta breakthrough cases and speculation that a third shot might be needed, I wish I had not got the vaccine.

The vaccines work very well in protecting you from a trip to the hospital. Nothing else. You will likely get infected anyway, but will get through it like it's common cold or a mild flu. Only 2 people in my country are currently in ICU and vaccinated - both severely immunocompromised.

dneal
September 6th, 2021, 09:21 AM
I appreciate everyone's concern, and suggestions; but I've done my own analysis and made my own decision. I do not intend to debate it with anyone, and while you're free to type as you like; it seems to be a road to contentiousness that just spins out of control.

I'll do you the same courtesy and not critique your decision. How about that?

dneal
September 6th, 2021, 09:56 AM
adhoc's comment prompted me to review the CDC's current hospitalization data HERE (https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html)

There are options for various specificity on the page. While certain age brackets get lumped in together (mine 50-64), which creates a little more ambiguity; most are broken out or have an option to do that, like with 65+. Anyway, here's a screenshot of the chart. The most recent spike looks to have occurred at the week ending 21 August. The lines are (top to bottom, in all date ranges).

85+: 37 per 100k
75-84: 29.2 per 100k
65-74: 19.3 per 100k
50-64: 16.2 per 100k

63169

--edit--

I found another CDC page with deaths per 100k (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime). For my age group, the height of the pandemic had a rate of 4.78 per 100k. The most recent spike was 1.41, the week after the hospitalization bump. Currently it is less than one per 100k.

adhoc
September 6th, 2021, 10:07 AM
I just wanted to provide you with data that might provide you some value. Your decision is ultimately up to you and I fully respect that.

Your graph doesn't take into the account the age pyramid structure. You can't tell what the average age of hospitalization is based on that. Regardless, the rates are quite low, which I guess was your main point.

dneal
September 6th, 2021, 10:16 AM
I do appreciate that, as a reminder to check and see what the current trends are, if nothing else.

Each line is an age range I selected as I refined the data I wanted to see. The lines correspond to the category and rates I listed - but yes it's too much data on one chart (you should have seen it with all ranges included...)

If you click the link, you can select the data as you like (age, cormorbidities and whatnot depending on the chart). The chart I linked will pop up a little window with date and data if you hover your cursor over it (on the CDC page, not here...)

--edit--

I just noticed I didn't address your "average age of hospitalization" point. I'll dig around a little further, but I would want to see how that average is counted. Two 10 year olds hospitalized and two 90 year olds hospitalized could be argued to have an average age of 50 for hospitalizations, but that is not particularly useful. I'm sure the scientists have a firm grasp on mean, mode, median, etc... I may give that a look. I have been bothered by the mathematically true but sensationalized "doubling" of cases, hospitalizations, deaths, etc... from the news. 2 deaths this week and 4 next week is an increase of 100%.

adhoc
September 6th, 2021, 10:45 AM
I couldn't find any data in this regard for US, but I can't imagine it's radically different from us. NIJZ, our state institution for healthcare, publishes all data daily including raw values in Excel etc.

Second page, bottom graph, right most column shows age structure of hospitalized infected for past week. I didn't run the numbers, but a significant portion of the column is taken up by ages 45-65, so average of 55 seems reasonable somewhat.

https://www.nijz.si/sites/www.nijz.si/files/uploaded/episari_mreza_grafi_do_29.8.2021.pdf

Chuck Naill
September 6th, 2021, 10:46 AM
Years ago when parents were not vaccinating their children, a pediatrician suggested the parents keep their children isolated. This was convenient for home schooling families.

Not sure I’ve ever demanded vaccines, but I do think the unvaccinated bear some responsibility. At least isolate. The issue is that the unvaccinated also go without masks, and refuse to physically distance.

One problem has been virus denial which has led to not getting a vaccine or adopting other measures.

And, why make the experts villains? Infectious diseases can be a moving target. It’s not as simple as boiling water .

dneal
September 6th, 2021, 11:03 AM
I couldn't find any data in this regard for US, but I can't imagine it's radically different from us. NIJZ, our state institution for healthcare, publishes all data daily including raw values in Excel etc.

Second page, bottom graph, right most column shows age structure of hospitalized infected for past week. I didn't run the numbers, but a significant portion of the column is taken up by ages 45-65, so average of 55 seems reasonable somewhat.

https://www.nijz.si/sites/www.nijz.si/files/uploaded/episari_mreza_grafi_do_29.8.2021.pdf

I like your country's graphs better than mine. The by-country difference is something I expect to see studies on when this all settles down. There are a lot of variables to account for.

dneal
September 6th, 2021, 11:10 AM
Years ago when parents were not vaccinating their children, a pediatrician suggested the parents keep their children isolated. This was convenient for home schooling families.

Not sure I’ve ever demanded vaccines, but I do think the unvaccinated bear some responsibility. At least isolate. The issue is that the unvaccinated also go without masks, and refuse to physically distance.

One problem has been virus denial which has led to not getting a vaccine or adopting other measures.

And, why make the experts villains? Infectious diseases can be a moving target. It’s not as simple as boiling water .

I'm not anti-vaccine. I don't think the experts are villains, either - and I missed it if anyone did. There are risks with all vaccines, although usually small. We now know that the spikes are cytotoxic, for example; and thrombosis is one of several issues one must consider before taking this vaccine. There is a lot we do not know about this virus and this vaccine. No one is an expert on the future. We can pick examples of the vaccine causing death, or COVID causing death. In both cases, it is possible. So what do we do with that information? Make as informed of a decision as each of us can... I'm comfortable with my assessment of risk to me and the public.

Chuck Naill
September 6th, 2021, 11:37 AM
Antony Fauci has been misaligned.

Chuck Naill
September 6th, 2021, 11:39 AM
Someone that impressed me.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/about-us/cidrap-staff/michael-t-osterholm-phd-mph

dneal
September 6th, 2021, 05:50 PM
Someone that impressed me.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/about-us/cidrap-staff/michael-t-osterholm-phd-mph

That link is to a bio. Not sure if that's what you intended. It is indeed impressive, and there are many well qualified individuals across the globe.

Was there an article he wrote you were intending to link to?

Chuck Naill
September 6th, 2021, 07:01 PM
Just wanted to introduce him to anyone reading the forum. He was the first I remember referring to the virus as an aerosolized virus. Since I had just begun to mask, 4/03/20, it made perfect sense.

TFarnon
September 7th, 2021, 03:37 AM
Simple enough. The vaccine, while far from perfect, and while not a failsafe in and of itself, will, with masking consistently and staying the hell away from potentially infected others, has a very good record of keeping you out of the ICU, off a ventilator, and only feeling like crap (or just a cold) if you do get it. That's not a waste of time in my book. Sure, I knew a prominent virologist at the local university who got both doses (he was 81) who caught the delta strain and died very quickly of pneumonia. But if there's even a 50/50 chance of not ending up in the ICU or the morgue, I'll take it. The vaccine works, but like all other vaccines, it's not a guarantee that you won't catch the disease(s) it prevents anyways. It just improves your odds.

TFarnon
September 7th, 2021, 04:07 AM
If you do contract severe COVID (and odds are higher if you aren't vaccinated), you are at huge risk of thrombosis. A lot of COVID patients present as stroke, because of hypercoagulability. I would even go so far as to say that the hypercoagulability has visibly distinctive characteristics when thromboelastography testing is performed. And yes, I do thromboelastography (TEG).

As for why I got the COVID vaccine, even early reports indicated it could be "worse than influenza" for many patients. Even as a young (in rude health would be putting it mildly) woman of 27, able to run all day in full battle gear, and able to easily knock out two miles in less than 14 minutes wearing regular running attire, able to crash around at 7,000 feet or higher on cross-country skis for hours, influenza took me down hard and landed me in the hospital for a week. My temperature was just over 101 at the clinic. By the time I got to the hospital, it was 105.6, and I was batshit crazypants delirious. When I was released from the hospital a week later, I was hard-pressed to cover 2 miles in 20 minutes. It took close to 6 months to recover. If COVID was going to be worse than influenza, then damn skippy I was getting the vaccine. I'm 62 now.

Chuck Naill
September 7th, 2021, 06:37 AM
I have had schingles twice in my life (10 or so years ago), the Chicken Pox vaccine was not available for me as a child. Both events I am convinced were stress related. Both events were when I was successful professionally, but stressed out even with that success. As @TFarnon has mentioned, I to was very physically active. I mention this because one way to stay healthy is to reduce stress, depression, andvide anxiety.

For me, first the mask and distancing was a way to reduce the stress and anxiety. I performed these as I wear hearing protector when operating machines because it provides hearing protection so I can do what I need or enjoy.

I could have probably gone without getting a vaccine last January 6. When I look back, for me it was because at that time I was still in healthcare. The vaccine benefits was that I couild continue to work, I would not need to quarantine, I could safety travel to my new home in another state, and I was less of a risk of infecting others.

While it was difficult, I tried to stay informed and listened to people who had made understanding and preventing disease their life's work.

So, my plan has worked to date, reduce stress, stay active, take precautions, use the science, "respect nature, respect science, respect each other" and avoid listening to people who don't know what they are talking about. I've also had to end relationships.

I do not expect or am even concerned if no one follows my plan. I think each of us has to decide for themselves what to do, and develope their own plan.

adhoc
September 7th, 2021, 08:16 AM
Someone that impressed me.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/about-us/cidrap-staff/michael-t-osterholm-phd-mph

I was watching an interview with him back in November 2019 or so, I believe we hadn't even had a single case yet here. He said then already that washing your hands won't do anything and it's just something to keep people busy.

More than a year later our official recommendation stated that transmission via a contaminated surface is "extremely unlikely" and could happen only by following an ideal scenario of several unfortunate events in succession; such as someone infected sneezing directly onto a surface, you touching that surface within minutes and then immediately putting your finger into your mouth or eyes. And even then it is unlikely that the viral load would be high enough to actually infect someone.

Chuck Naill
September 7th, 2021, 09:35 AM
Someone that impressed me.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/about-us/cidrap-staff/michael-t-osterholm-phd-mph

I was watching an interview with him back in November 2019 or so, I believe we hadn't even had a single case yet here. He said then already that washing your hands won't do anything and it's just something to keep people busy.

More than a year later our official recommendation stated that transmission via a contaminated surface is "extremely unlikely" and could happen only by following an ideal scenario of several unfortunate events in succession; such as someone infected sneezing directly onto a surface, you touching that surface within minutes and then immediately putting your finger into your mouth or eyes. And even then it is unlikely that the viral load would be high enough to actually infect someone.

I also remember him saying the same.

dneal
September 10th, 2021, 08:28 AM
This was posted on social media by a VA hospice worker, who worked the San Antonio VA last year. San Antonio has a very large (if not the largest... I would have to check) retired military population of any area. Primarily Army and Air Force.

It was a very busy summer.

The thing about being a hospice worker is that you become intimately familiar with death. The most profound philosophical question, to paraphrase Camus and others. The most profound fear perhaps, since "it comes for us all...". Anyway, a qualified person to speak on a deadly serious topic, I think.


For my friends and family who have recently gotten their CV shot or who know they will get one soon, good for you! I’m so glad that this option is available for you!
For my friends who aren’t sure they will get one just yet, or maybe ever, or already know that they never will, awesome for you too! I am happy that you have this choice. Medical freedom is important!
So whether you choose:
- A CV shot
- No CV shot
OR
- A Tequila shot
You’re okay in my books and I respect your decision…

I know the person who wrote this, and have no question of their motive or compassion. It is a person who knows better than most of us just how precious life is, and how important the quality of that life is, and that no matter how hard we struggle, or shout at our god(s), or shout at each other; it all comes to the same close for each of us.

Although they know nothing about philosophy or philosophers, this person has learned through hard experience what Stoics, Buddhists, Taoists and others have tried to share. It's uncomfortable, but real truths usually are.

I can respect that.

Chuck Naill
May 11th, 2023, 05:53 AM
This is an op-ed regarding the pandemic and suggested reforms plus what we learned.

"6) We know how to reduce the spread of airborne viruses like Covid.

Inexplicably, the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had been very reluctant initially to embrace the reality that the SARS-CoV-2 virus, like most respiratory viruses, could spread through the air by microscopic particles and remain suspended and travel beyond a close group of people, otherwise known as airborne transmission. This viral transmission can be reduced through the use of high quality N95 or KN95 respirators, by being outdoors and, when indoors, by increasing ventilation and improving indoor air filtration. The federal government needs to provide incentives to local governments to update their building codes to require better indoor air quality.

7) Vaccines reduce serious disease, but are unlikely to prevent transmission. New therapeutics are needed.

Vaccinated people are far less likely to get seriously ill or die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Many people also benefit from boosters. While the vaccines have reduced the risk of hospitalization and death, we need to develop vaccines that induce broad-spectrum and long-lasting immunity to protect against rapidly mutating viruses. We also need to develop additional monoclonal antibodies, treatments necessary for immune compromised individuals who don’t respond well to vaccines, and broad-spectrum antiviral medications to inhibit the replication of a wide range of viruses."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/11/opinion/covid-pandemic-lessons.html?unlocked_article_code=-wNCGXonGLEMQaNLS9pTJjTHeSHMPLWtHv5DLuArzk-j96kzVRSDrBm6uvObbaidqOzFxewDSKu45rDhBczqOE014gR6i 29CJ3WcTvdhWaVrlQC--BsqCp_dXxhTuhPEEO-yBzy8SYpxx-npVoDWYTJ_peCdXtuXipe1hUYckl51eUOX-drWMbO-_HN6tPQltDl-Dq5hAvn_KuOCTCbj-pWvBNX-vQtcldR8GuXS89XR5STNKBWOhdTMSVhBM6tCHiGpasNq217Tj7 KdB4dXc0JU2hGh1JSI-Y7IKzJgVDDoxBrH5C_ggfnpElMsK6tr9ozVzk85vhS4sIgDpRf ljzw&smid=url-share

dneal
May 11th, 2023, 07:27 AM
You really want to pick this scab?

Chuck Naill
May 11th, 2023, 09:28 AM
Of course. We’ll be better prepared next time.

TSherbs
May 11th, 2023, 09:38 AM
This is an op-ed regarding the pandemic and suggested reforms plus what we learned.

"6) We know how to reduce the spread of airborne viruses like Covid.

Inexplicably, the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had been very reluctant initially to embrace the reality that the SARS-CoV-2 virus, like most respiratory viruses, could spread through the air by microscopic particles and remain suspended and travel beyond a close group of people, otherwise known as airborne transmission. This viral transmission can be reduced through the use of high quality N95 or KN95 respirators, by being outdoors and, when indoors, by increasing ventilation and improving indoor air filtration. The federal government needs to provide incentives to local governments to update their building codes to require better indoor air quality.

7) Vaccines reduce serious disease, but are unlikely to prevent transmission. New therapeutics are needed.

Vaccinated people are far less likely to get seriously ill or die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Many people also benefit from boosters. While the vaccines have reduced the risk of hospitalization and death, we need to develop vaccines that induce broad-spectrum and long-lasting immunity to protect against rapidly mutating viruses. We also need to develop additional monoclonal antibodies, treatments necessary for immune compromised individuals who don’t respond well to vaccines, and broad-spectrum antiviral medications to inhibit the replication of a wide range of viruses."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/11/opinion/covid-pandemic-lessons.html?unlocked_article_code=-wNCGXonGLEMQaNLS9pTJjTHeSHMPLWtHv5DLuArzk-j96kzVRSDrBm6uvObbaidqOzFxewDSKu45rDhBczqOE014gR6i 29CJ3WcTvdhWaVrlQC--BsqCp_dXxhTuhPEEO-yBzy8SYpxx-npVoDWYTJ_peCdXtuXipe1hUYckl51eUOX-drWMbO-_HN6tPQltDl-Dq5hAvn_KuOCTCbj-pWvBNX-vQtcldR8GuXS89XR5STNKBWOhdTMSVhBM6tCHiGpasNq217Tj7 KdB4dXc0JU2hGh1JSI-Y7IKzJgVDDoxBrH5C_ggfnpElMsK6tr9ozVzk85vhS4sIgDpRf ljzw&smid=url-share

Why did you leave out items 1-5? And are there more items after #7?

dneal
May 11th, 2023, 09:40 AM
Newsweek has a good op-ed for you to start with.

It's Time for the Scientific Community to Admit We Were Wrong About COVID (https://www.newsweek.com/its-time-scientific-community-admit-we-were-wrong-about-coivd-it-cost-lives-opinion-1776630)




As a medical student and researcher, I staunchly supported the efforts of the public health authorities when it came to COVID-19. I believed that the authorities responded to the largest public health crisis of our lives with compassion, diligence, and scientific expertise. I was with them when they called for lockdowns, vaccines, and boosters.

I was wrong. We in the scientific community were wrong. And it cost lives.

I can see now that the scientific community from the CDC to the WHO to the FDA and their representatives, repeatedly overstated the evidence and misled the public about its own views and policies, including on natural vs. artificial immunity, school closures and disease transmission, aerosol spread, mask mandates, and vaccine effectiveness and safety, especially among the young. All of these were scientific mistakes at the time, not in hindsight. Amazingly, some of these obfuscations continue to the present day.

But perhaps more important than any individual error was how inherently flawed the overall approach of the scientific community was, and continues to be. It was flawed in a way that undermined its efficacy and resulted in thousands if not millions of preventable deaths.

What we did not properly appreciate is that preferences determine how scientific expertise is used, and that our preferences might be—indeed, our preferences were—very different from many of the people that we serve. We created policy based on our preferences, then justified it using data. And then we portrayed those opposing our efforts as misguided, ignorant, selfish, and evil.

We made science a team sport, and in so doing, we made it no longer science. It became us versus them, and "they" responded the only way anyone might expect them to: by resisting.

We excluded important parts of the population from policy development and castigated critics, which meant that we deployed a monolithic response across an exceptionally diverse nation, forged a society more fractured than ever, and exacerbated longstanding heath and economic disparities.

Our emotional response and ingrained partisanship prevented us from seeing the full impact of our actions on the people we are supposed to serve. We systematically minimized the downsides of the interventions we imposed—imposed without the input, consent, and recognition of those forced to live with them. In so doing, we violated the autonomy of those who would be most negatively impacted by our policies: the poor, the working class, small business owners, Blacks and Latinos, and children. These populations were overlooked because they were made invisible to us by their systematic exclusion from the dominant, corporatized media machine that presumed omniscience.

Most of us did not speak up in support of alternative views, and many of us tried to suppress them. When strong scientific voices like world-renowned Stanford professors John Ioannidis, Jay Bhattacharya, and Scott Atlas, or University of California San Francisco professors Vinay Prasad and Monica Gandhi, sounded the alarm on behalf of vulnerable communities, they faced severe censure by relentless mobs of critics and detractors in the scientific community—often not on the basis of fact but solely on the basis of differences in scientific opinion.

When former President Trump pointed out the downsides of intervention, he was dismissed publicly as a buffoon. And when Dr. Antony Fauci opposed Trump and became the hero of the public health community, we gave him our support to do and say what he wanted, even when he was wrong.

Trump was not remotely perfect, nor were the academic critics of consensus policy. But the scorn that we laid on them was a disaster for public trust in the pandemic response. Our approach alienated large segments of the population from what should have been a national, collaborative project.

And we paid the price. The rage of the those marginalized by the expert class exploded onto and dominated social media. Lacking the scientific lexicon to express their disagreement, many dissidents turned to conspiracy theories and a cottage industry of scientific contortionists to make their case against the expert class consensus that dominated the pandemic mainstream. Labeling this speech "misinformation" and blaming it on "scientific illiteracy" and "ignorance," the government conspired with Big Tech to aggressively suppress it, erasing the valid political concerns of the government's opponents.

And this despite the fact that pandemic policy was created by a razor-thin sliver of American society who anointed themselves to preside over the working class—members of academia, government, medicine, journalism, tech, and public health, who are highly educated and privileged. From the comfort of their privilege, this elite prizes paternalism, as opposed to average Americans who laud self-reliance and whose daily lives routinely demand that they reckon with risk. That many of our leaders neglected to consider the lived experience of those across the class divide is unconscionable.

Incomprehensible to us due to this class divide, we severely judged lockdown critics as lazy, backwards, even evil. We dismissed as "grifters" those who represented their interests. We believed "misinformation" energized the ignorant, and we refused to accept that such people simply had a different, valid point of view.

We crafted policy for the people without consulting them. If our public health officials had led with less hubris, the course of the pandemic in the United States might have had a very different outcome, with far fewer lost lives.

Instead, we have witnessed a massive and ongoing loss of life in America due to distrust of vaccines and the healthcare system; a massive concentration in wealth by already wealthy elites; a rise in suicides and gun violence especially among the poor; a near-doubling of the rate of depression and anxiety disorders especially among the young; a catastrophic loss of educational attainment among already disadvantaged children; and among those most vulnerable, a massive loss of trust in healthcare, science, scientific authorities, and political leaders more broadly.

My motivation for writing this is simple: It's clear to me that for public trust to be restored in science, scientists should publicly discuss what went right and what went wrong during the pandemic, and where we could have done better.

It's OK to be wrong and admit where one was wrong and what one learned. That's a central part of the way science works. Yet I fear that many are too entrenched in groupthink—and too afraid to publicly take responsibility—to do this.

Solving these problems in the long term requires a greater commitment to pluralism and tolerance in our institutions, including the inclusion of critical if unpopular voices.

Intellectual elitism, credentialism, and classism must end. Restoring trust in public health—and our democracy—depends on it.

Kevin Bass is an MD/PhD student at a medical school in Texas. He is in his 7th year.

The views expressed in this article are the writer's own.

Chuck Naill
May 11th, 2023, 09:53 AM
From your post @dneal.

“My motivation for writing this is simple: It's clear to me that for public trust to be restored in science, scientists should publicly discuss what went right and what went wrong during the pandemic, and where we could have done better” , which is precisely what the link I provided did.

TSherbs
May 11th, 2023, 11:19 AM
Oh, I figured it out. Here is the entire list:


1) Human tolerance for lifestyle changes is limited.

Americans by and large endured substantial changes and restrictions in daily life and social interactions, including taking extra precautions like wearing masks, minimizing interactions and modifying lifestyles. But patience ran out. By September 2022, 30 months into the pandemic, 46 percent of Americans had returned to their prepandemic lives, according to an Axios-Ipsos survey. This was despite the fact on Sept. 1 of that year, an average of 90,000 new cases and more than 500 deaths were being reported a day. Patience appears to have been even shorter during the 1918 influenza pandemic. If the next public health emergency occurs soon, patience may run out sooner. Policymakers need to recognize the limitation in human perseverance and prepare accordingly.

2) Incentives can change behavior. Social norms can enforce it.

Habits are hard to change. But people do change with the right incentives, like higher taxes on cigarettes or on sugar sweetened beverages to reduce unhealthy behaviors. During Covid, workplace vaccine mandates were effective in increasing vaccination rates. More creative use of incentives and judicious mandates that do not evoke substantial resistance should be examined.

People also tend to bend to social norms, those unwritten rules or peer practices that govern behavior in societies. That is why masking was easier in East Asia than in the United States. Masks were common in East Asia during the SARS epidemic of 2002-2003 and are often worn there to protect against transmitting or catching infections. In the absence of such norms, it may become necessary to draw on the persuasion of public officials, celebrities and other social influencers. Policymakers must strive to take public health actions that are translatable into social norms.

3) Trust is crucial.

Public trust in government and health organizations can reduce cases and deaths. The United States, already sharply divided politically, failed on this essential element of the response. In 2021, according to Gallup, only 39 percent of Americans had a great deal or fair amount of trust in the federal government to handle either domestic or international affairs. And Pew survey in 2022 found that “fewer than half” of the respondents said the country had “given the right amount of priority to the needs of K-12 students, public health, quality of life.” Trust is easy to lose, but very hard to regain. It requires honesty and transparency. Future policies, especially those based on uncertain or incomplete information — such as whether a Covid vaccine mandate should remain in place — must be evaluated in part by their impact on social trust.

4) Prepare now.

Disease surveillance capabilities, governmentwide coordination, the stockpiling of medical supplies and the ability to maintain resilient supply chains are essential preparations.

5) Reliable, real-time data is vital.

Data that enables public officials to track a virus also enables them to respond quickly to local outbreaks. But in the United States, a disjointed and poorly funded public health system and fragmented health delivery made collecting data challenging. This difficulty was exacerbated because public and private health systems did not provide complete data to state and local public health agencies. The federal government lacks authority to require real-time data collection unless there is an emergency. The federal government should mandate or create strong incentives for the timely reporting of uniform data by states and localities to a central, open-access data repository, which is essential for an effective response.

6) We know how to reduce the spread of airborne viruses like Covid.

Inexplicably, the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had been very reluctant initially to embrace the reality that the SARS-CoV-2 virus, like most respiratory viruses, could spread through the air by microscopic particles and remain suspended and travel beyond a close group of people, otherwise known as airborne transmission. This viral transmission can be reduced through the use of high quality N95 or KN95 respirators, by being outdoors and, when indoors, by increasing ventilation and improving indoor air filtration. The federal government needs to provide incentives to local governments to update their building codes to require better indoor air quality.

7) Vaccines reduce serious disease, but are unlikely to prevent transmission. New therapeutics are needed.

Vaccinated people are far less likely to get seriously ill or die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Many people also benefit from boosters. While the vaccines have reduced the risk of hospitalization and death, we need to develop vaccines that induce broad-spectrum and long-lasting immunity to protect against rapidly mutating viruses. We also need to develop additional monoclonal antibodies, treatments necessary for immune compromised individuals who don’t respond well to vaccines, and broad-spectrum antiviral medications to inhibit the replication of a wide range of viruses.

8) Responses should be tailored to local circumstances.

Over the last three years, the virus sometimes spread nationally and other times was limited to a few regions of the country. Viral surges repeatedly erupted in some areas but not others. The appropriate public health response should be modulated and based on viral prevalence, vaccination rates and other circumstances at the local level. Federal coordination is important, but we should rely on locally nuanced responses.

9) School should not be interrupted or placed online except in rare circumstances.

In-person education can continue during a respiratory pandemic like Covid, even before a vaccine is developed. Among other things, this would require: improved indoor air quality by opening windows and using better HVAC and enhanced filtration systems; managing how lunch and other group activities are conducted; testing for infections; and wearing high-quality masks during surges. When vaccines become available, teachers and students should be prioritized, although as some countries showed, schools could reopen without vaccines by employing those other public health interventions. In the most severe outbreaks or those particularly deadly for children, closing schools temporarily may be necessary.

10) Social isolation is harmful and can increase mortality.

Early in the pandemic, much of society shut down. The result was an increase in social isolation that led to depression and the erosion of social skills.

While physical distancing is important to reduce the spread of airborne viruses, socializing can occur in parks and on playgrounds, streets, beaches and other outdoor venues where the air circulation is good. Even in pandemics, public spaces should remain open unless they are driving surges.

11) We need vaccine access and paid sick leave.

More lives can be saved by prioritizing the vaccination of the vulnerable — older people, for instance, in the case of Covid — and frontline workers in essential industries; improving indoor air quality; properly wearing high-quality N95 or KN95 respirators; and ensuring workers are supported with paid sick leave so they can take time off while they or household members are infectious and in need of care.

12) Indifference can kill.

For most of the 20th century, life became much safer as risks of death in car crashes and workplaces and from diseases declined. But Covid upended that narrative in the 21st century. Even so, people seem to have become inured to Covid, though it was the third leading cause of death in the United States in 2020 and 2021, and the fourth leading cause of death last year. Americans seemed to tolerate 200,000 or so Covid deaths a year — more deaths than strokes and diabetes and about five times the number from breast cancer. We worry that this indifference may be related to the fact that more than three-quarters of all Covid deaths have been among older people, minorities and those with obesity and diabetes. That, of course, is unacceptable, and we must redouble our focus on the most vulnerable and treat them as the equals they are.

13) Covid will not be the last pandemic to strike the United States and the next one could be worse.

The United States is repeating its “panic and forget” approach to crises. Unless we adopt smart policies, in the next health emergency America will again rely on improvisation, trial-and-error, and luck rather than data, planning and preparedness. And tragically, hundreds of thousands if not millions could suffer and die as a result of our lassitude.

As the public health emergency ends, we worry that the focus on other crises will push aside the planning and the execution of our recommendations. Future generations will pay the price unless we respond with substantive reforms.

Chuck Naill
May 11th, 2023, 01:24 PM
This is an op-ed regarding the pandemic and suggested reforms plus what we learned.

"6) We know how to reduce the spread of airborne viruses like Covid.

Inexplicably, the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had been very reluctant initially to embrace the reality that the SARS-CoV-2 virus, like most respiratory viruses, could spread through the air by microscopic particles and remain suspended and travel beyond a close group of people, otherwise known as airborne transmission. This viral transmission can be reduced through the use of high quality N95 or KN95 respirators, by being outdoors and, when indoors, by increasing ventilation and improving indoor air filtration. The federal government needs to provide incentives to local governments to update their building codes to require better indoor air quality.

7) Vaccines reduce serious disease, but are unlikely to prevent transmission. New therapeutics are needed.

Vaccinated people are far less likely to get seriously ill or die from Covid than those who are unvaccinated. Many people also benefit from boosters. While the vaccines have reduced the risk of hospitalization and death, we need to develop vaccines that induce broad-spectrum and long-lasting immunity to protect against rapidly mutating viruses. We also need to develop additional monoclonal antibodies, treatments necessary for immune compromised individuals who don’t respond well to vaccines, and broad-spectrum antiviral medications to inhibit the replication of a wide range of viruses."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/11/opinion/covid-pandemic-lessons.html?unlocked_article_code=-wNCGXonGLEMQaNLS9pTJjTHeSHMPLWtHv5DLuArzk-j96kzVRSDrBm6uvObbaidqOzFxewDSKu45rDhBczqOE014gR6i 29CJ3WcTvdhWaVrlQC--BsqCp_dXxhTuhPEEO-yBzy8SYpxx-npVoDWYTJ_peCdXtuXipe1hUYckl51eUOX-drWMbO-_HN6tPQltDl-Dq5hAvn_KuOCTCbj-pWvBNX-vQtcldR8GuXS89XR5STNKBWOhdTMSVhBM6tCHiGpasNq217Tj7 KdB4dXc0JU2hGh1JSI-Y7IKzJgVDDoxBrH5C_ggfnpElMsK6tr9ozVzk85vhS4sIgDpRf ljzw&smid=url-share

Why did you leave out items 1-5? And are there more items after #7?

The masks and vaccines were the most talked about strategies.

I’m not trying to open an old wound, but it is important, for me at least, to know I participated in a way to prevent the spread.

TSherbs
May 11th, 2023, 01:52 PM
It's fine. The list, in its entirety, is reasonable and thoughtful. It's very important to have a strategy ahead of time for most imaginable contingencies. These recent experiences and data will help inform the ongoing efforts to craft such strategies.

Chuck Naill
May 11th, 2023, 02:22 PM
I’ve listened and trusted Michael Osterhom since the beginning. Misspelling his name, perhaps…lol!

TSherbs
June 16th, 2023, 10:47 AM
New recommendation from CDC on which Covid vax would be best for this fall:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2023/06/15/new-covid-vaccine-booster-recommendations-fda-panel/70315074007/

TSherbs
June 24th, 2023, 05:58 AM
Biden admin report on Covid pandemic origins released: no conclusive origin determined. Two top theories remain Wuhan lab and slaughtered animals.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/23/biden-administration-intelligence-wuhan-lab-00103523

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2023, 06:30 AM
I'm up to date on the variant. I will probably get the next dose in August and the flu vaccine the first of October as before. This keeps the titers at a good level through the season. Oh, and I got my first Pneumococcus vaccine last Winter.

dneal
June 27th, 2023, 12:14 PM
Let’s review what a ‘fringe epidemiologist’ told us years ago.


To start with a couple of asides:

1. The interviews Peter Robinson does at the Hoover Institution are very diverse and amazingly well done. He is a master. I recommend adding the “Uncommon Knowledge” pieces to your weekly schedule.

2. Since some of the more emotional posters should have me “ignored” now, hopefully a respectful conversation can take place. Please move on if you only have smug, smarmy comments.

Here is an intriguing discussion with Dr. Jay I’mgonnabutcherhislastname. He’s an MD and a fellow who contributes to economic policy research.

The points he makes regarding the “denominator” are crucial, but the whole thing is highly informative and great food for thought.


http://Www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UO3Wd5urg0


First, I would ask (even plead) that those who have strong or absolute opinions on this subject, those who do not have or do not want to spend time watching or listening to a YouTube video, and/or those who have only snide and sarcastic comments to offer - could you please refrain from responding and just move on to another thread or topic?

There is evidence that people are capable of discussing this topic reasonably, THIS THREAD (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30970-Questioning-Conventional-Wisdom-The-virus) being an example.

A recent Uncommon Knowledge episode reviewing the past 19 months of COVID came to my attention (roughly a week old at the time of this posting). Some can view it from an "I told you so" perspective, but that's a petty viewpoint. Instead, it is beneficial to review what we did and didn't know as opposed to what we now know (remaining cognizant of the many "unknowns" that now exist); to guide future decision making.

There is a dearth of information in this video that can serve that purpose.

The episode is roughly an hour. It does not require watching, and you can listen while you go about your day. Morning rituals, exercising, driving to work, etc... there are many opportunities one can take advantage of.

In the past, some have asked for a "transcript"; and I have accommodated when I could. There are too many sub-topics in this discussion for me to do that now, and I might in the future as I have time to dedicate to it. However, if you click the LINK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG7XZ2JXZqY), you will see an icon with three dots at the lower right (usually next to "save"). Clicking those dots will give you an option to display a transcript, which is far from perfect as it is the collection of closed captions; but it is better than nothing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG7XZ2JXZqY

Chuck Naill
June 27th, 2023, 02:20 PM
Mercy, not again. I thought you wanted amnesty??

dneal
June 27th, 2023, 06:13 PM
Why would I want amnesty? I didn’t chimp-scream at people, or tell them they shouldn’t get an ICU bed. That was you and your ’Christian’ love for your fellow man.

Chuck Naill
June 28th, 2023, 05:45 AM
Why would I want amnesty? I didn’t chimp-scream at people, or tell them they shouldn’t get an ICU bed. That was you and your ’Christian’ love for your fellow man.

You posted something about amnesty.

Christian love tells others the truth when they are going the wrong way, as you did during the pandemic. Love would also have caused you to do whatever was needed to protect others, again, you didn't. Do not lecture anyone about love, dneal. If you weren't going to protect yourself, then don't except them to save you from yourself, which you expected, and which would have occurred had you needed a bed. The medical community was and is still willing to do for you what you were not willing to do for yourself, even if your infection could have caused them and their family's harm. Wearing a mask, keeping your distance, and getting a vaccine was a minimum of what a loving person would do, if not for themselves, for others. This is the basis for Chrisitan love, treating others as you would want them to treat you.

Since you brought Christianity up, not getting what we deserve is the background for the Christian concept of grace or charis or free-unmerited love. I use up grace like a jet uses fuel at takeoff and wouldn't have it any other way.

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 06:45 AM
Chuck, I didn’t proselytize. You did. I offered observations and evidence, and asked questions.

You and others attempted to excoriate me for it. You specifically asserted I didn't deserve any care - hardly a Christian attitude - and behaved in a way that represents the faith poorly.

I haven’t rubbed it in, even though I have increasing opportunity to do so, as the evidence of the harms of the Fauci's of the world become more apparent.

I only pointed it out in the Trump thread to give you reason to be more skeptical; and to (again) show your hypocrisy. You doubled down with "lol" and and emoji, reverting to Candy/Chuck. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy here, to see if you will own your words and actions - or try to rationalize your way out of it. I got exactly what I suspected I would.

I'd like to say that I'm sorry your media did that to your brain, but apparently you've got the long mind virus. You're still so tribal and partisan that you can't even see your side's attempt to dismiss the harms they inflicted on society. Ooops, how about amnesty? as the headline says.

You can keep your denial up, and I can easily quote post after post of yours (and others, for that matter). Perhaps you should find a mentor to help you understand what Jesus' would think about your past and current behavior. It's certainly not Christian.

Carpio
June 28th, 2023, 07:06 AM
Hello,

The choice to have the jab is down to the individual.

However, the individual who refuses to have the jab - should they be asked to sign a disclaimer so as to save the medical profession from administering medical attention should he/she contract covid 19 (or variants)?

Alternatively -

Say, hyperthetically, I stress hyperthetically, a healthy, mid 50 year old person who refused to have a vaccine jab against covid-19 (and/or variants) contracted covid-19 (and/or variant) and, god forbid, became critically ill - that person would, I imagine, expect to be cared for at a hospital, surrounded by nurses and doctors, and would hope to be treated and to make a full recovery, but say, that person wasn't making a good recovery, or going to make a recovery at all - what happens to that persons wife or husband and children, if they have children. Is it then still a case of,... I made my choice, so allow me to die how I wish.
Would it be fair to call that person, ignorant? How about, selfish? At the best, irresponsible?


Here lies my soulmate
Taken from me far too soon
I will never forget you

Carpio

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 07:51 AM
Another victim of the media. I’m sorry they did that to you.

Bold2013
June 28th, 2023, 08:44 AM
“Give me liberty, or give me death!”

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 10:47 AM
I readily admit to being just as big of a jackass as anyone on this board. I apologize. I incorrectly believed through consistent escalation, I could deescalate. A form of chicken, so to speak. I say chicken. Again, my apologies.

So, I thought we might go ahead and try something less caustic. An experiment, if you will; to bring more posters into this oftentimes hostile place and see if we can make it less so.

I am genuinely curious about individual's personal choices regarding vaccination, if we can respectfully share and not introduce the judgement and vitriol. Maybe a baby-step to civility.

I thought about the vaccine long and hard, and my risk-reward calculus (to me and the public) did not require it. The virus struck at the same time I retired. Reducing contact reduces transmission. My normal retirement lifestyle easily accommodates that, and now is messing around a half a dozen acres with a tractor and a chainsaw. Every day is a closet full of "perfect Saturdays" to choose from. Is that a day enjoying the sunshine and mowing a couple of those acres and sipping a few ice cold beers? Smoking a brisket? Is it lounging around, Big Lebowski style, with a White Russian in hand? Whatever it is, I can usually do it. My life is about as close to perfect as it gets. Content is an understatement.

I'm a healthy 50-something. The odds of COVID killing me (and honestly, I believe I had it last year) are astronomically small. I run exponentially greater risk from the tractor and chainsaw, or driving up to the gas station for no-contact with anyone fuel. My immediate family comes and goes, I do drive down to my brother's house (he's retired too, about 15 minutes away) on occasion. I keep masks on hand. When places I go ask to wear one, I do. I generally play the game. The risk I pose or am exposed to is miniscule.

I'm honestly tired of being stuck with "experimental" or "emergency" stuff too. I've had all the standard stuff you get, to include for going overseas. I've had the Anthrax series. I just found a most recent shot record as I was weeding through old paperwork, and apparently was vaccinated for H1N1 too. I had Lyme disease 30-some years ago. The thought of adding one more thing that could lie lurking, and complicating closer to end of life quality and care is an important consideration to me.

My wife is the one who does the social things and runs to town to get groceries, etc... She thought long and hard and chose to get vaccinated, and her risk reward calculus was different. Her concerns are documented. Variations of thrombosis in particular, but she can list a whole bunch that are important to her. She knows her medical history as well as anyone, and it's her body. Ultimately, like in my case too, life. Her view was that her frequency of contact with random people warranted it, for her benefit and theirs. It also mitigates risk in my risk-reward calculus.

I agree with her calculus, and she agrees with mine - even though we didn't get the same answer - because we're reasonable people.

Other's thoughts would be appreciated.

I couldn't remember how this thread got started, so I went back and looked. We might remind ourselves, before we slip back into accusatory patterns, that this thread was an attempt to break out of that pattern. Rehashing those old argument positions seems particularly futile.

My understanding of the Covid pandemic evolved over time, as did many persons'. As did the virus itself. We will likely, as a nation, treat the next pandemic with a different eye. But everything depends also on what the next contagion is.

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 12:35 PM
It was, and it was also futile. We lost mhosea, ethernautrix, dreck and others because of people who are unable to reason. You, Chuck and Chip are what remain. I’m not going to cede the forum to you idiots.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 01:10 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 01:16 PM
My understanding of the Covid pandemic evolved over time, as did many persons'. As did the virus itself. We will likely, as a nation, treat the next pandemic with a different eye. But everything depends also on what the next contagion is.

I'll repeat this, in case anyone is interested in responding on topic.

I'll also add that I expect that the government will respond differently, as long as the contagion is similar. But also in part because--I read--they have a much earlier vaccine response system already established for the next pandemic response. I doubt we will do major lockdowns like we did (my town businesses never fully locked down, actually), but this depends on a contagion not being substantially worse.

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 01:33 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

Seney is a woman. 2nd time you have messed up her pronouns. Go do your penance at the rainbow altar of the woke.

And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 01:45 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

Seney is a woman. 2nd time you have messed up her pronouns. Go do your penance at the rainbow altar of the woke.

And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

Is "guy" a pronoun?

Well, "she" has never declared as much in any answer to my questions, as far as I remember. So that is one tidbit (not relevant much here) that has come out...I hope that "she" is not upset for you revealing this (if in fact "she" is not "you"). I am remarking on the confluence of posts and ideas and language. Interesting echoes and patterns. Could be coincidence, or influence even. Or more. Some of you have liked to assume of others that they are using multiple identities of posters and seem to know a fair amount about it.

I have no idea what else you are referring to here.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 01:46 PM
My understanding of the Covid pandemic evolved over time, as did many persons'. As did the virus itself. We will likely, as a nation, treat the next pandemic with a different eye. But everything depends also on what the next contagion is.

I'll repeat this, in case anyone is interested in responding on topic.

I'll also add that I expect that the government will respond differently, as long as the contagion is similar. But also in part because--I read--they have a much earlier vaccine response system already established for the next pandemic response. I doubt we will do major lockdowns like we did (my town businesses never fully locked down, actually), but this depends on a contagion not being substantially worse.

repeat x2

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 02:59 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

Seney is a woman. 2nd time you have messed up her pronouns. Go do your penance at the rainbow altar of the woke.

And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

Is "guy" a pronoun?

Well, "she" has never declared as much in any answer to my questions, as far as I remember. So that is one tidbit (not relevant much here) that has come out...I hope that "she" is not upset for you revealing this (if in fact "she" is not "you"). I am remarking on the confluence of posts and ideas and language. Interesting echoes and patterns. Could be coincidence, or influence even. Or more. Some of you have liked to assume of others that they are using multiple identities of posters and seem to know a fair amount about it.

I have no idea what else you are referring to here.

Maybe this?



[

Why don't you engage a topic that might be more engaging?
For example, your boy Joe. It is very apparent to me that he is an even more prolific liar than Trump and that he, too, deserves to be jailed for his impeachable offenses.
But, obviously you do not think so.......
IMO, that is a discussion worth having. ..

Good for you. Go to a Biden thread and post away to your heart's content. This thread is on Trump. To complain about Trump posts on a thread about Trump is, shall we say, errant.


fuck off, Chuck

and I say that in the most non-controlling way ;)

I'm just telling him that his complaining about Trump comments on a Trump thread is misplaced...and 😫.

As for ‘guys’, I’m not the one making stupid new rules for pronouns. That’s your side. I’m just trying to keep you from being cancelled.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 03:11 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

Seney is a woman. 2nd time you have messed up her pronouns. Go do your penance at the rainbow altar of the woke.

And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

Is "guy" a pronoun?

Well, "she" has never declared as much in any answer to my questions, as far as I remember. So that is one tidbit (not relevant much here) that has come out...I hope that "she" is not upset for you revealing this (if in fact "she" is not "you"). I am remarking on the confluence of posts and ideas and language. Interesting echoes and patterns. Could be coincidence, or influence even. Or more. Some of you have liked to assume of others that they are using multiple identities of posters and seem to know a fair amount about it.

I have no idea what else you are referring to here.

Maybe this?



[

Why don't you engage a topic that might be more engaging?
For example, your boy Joe. It is very apparent to me that he is an even more prolific liar than Trump and that he, too, deserves to be jailed for his impeachable offenses.
But, obviously you do not think so.......
IMO, that is a discussion worth having. ..

Good for you. Go to a Biden thread and post away to your heart's content. This thread is on Trump. To complain about Trump posts on a thread about Trump is, shall we say, errant.


fuck off, Chuck

and I say that in the most non-controlling way ;)

I'm just telling him that his complaining about Trump comments on a Trump thread is misplaced...and 😫.

As for ‘guys’, I’m not the one making stupid new rules for pronouns. That’s your side. I’m just trying to keep you from being cancelled.

I don't see any reference to the C-word there....

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 03:12 PM
My understanding of the Covid pandemic evolved over time, as did many persons'. As did the virus itself. We will likely, as a nation, treat the next pandemic with a different eye. But everything depends also on what the next contagion is.

I'll repeat this, in case anyone is interested in responding on topic.

I'll also add that I expect that the government will respond differently, as long as the contagion is similar. But also in part because--I read--they have a much earlier vaccine response system already established for the next pandemic response. I doubt we will do major lockdowns like we did (my town businesses never fully locked down, actually), but this depends on a contagion not being substantially worse.

repeat x2

repeat x3

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 03:23 PM
Hi David. You're not fooling anyone, and you've already made some errors that lead me to the conclusion of more likely than not. No, I won't point them out for you to correct or excuse.

You'll eventually err to the point of it being obvious, just as you always have.

I'm happy to wait, and no one will be surprised.

p.s.: I'm not the only one who suspects this.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 03:40 PM
Hi David. You're not fooling anyone, and you've already made some errors that lead me to the conclusion of more likely than not. Check, just as I said.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 03:43 PM
Hello,


Another victim of the media. I’m sorry they did that to you.
Is that directed at my post?
If it isn't, I appologise for my upcoming retort.

'Another victim of the media. I'm sorry they did that to you' - ignorance personified, you prick.

Welcome to the FPG back threads.

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 03:52 PM
My understanding of the Covid pandemic evolved over time, as did many persons'. As did the virus itself. We will likely, as a nation, treat the next pandemic with a different eye. But everything depends also on what the next contagion is.

I'll repeat this, in case anyone is interested in responding on topic.

I'll also add that I expect that the government will respond differently, as long as the contagion is similar. But also in part because--I read--they have a much earlier vaccine response system already established for the next pandemic response. I doubt we will do major lockdowns like we did (my town businesses never fully locked down, actually), but this depends on a contagion not being substantially worse.

repeat x2

repeat x3

No one is interested in this topic, because it is a reminder of how wrong and lemming-like they were.

But let's address your response.

One leading epidemiologist was way ahead of the game, based on previous experience. He was mocked, but he was right.

Prevalence was more widely spread than was being reported. His studies in LA county and using the MLB demonstrated his hypothesis. He was mocked and ignored.

He warned of the economic dangers. He was mocked and ignored. While the 1st world experienced extreme inflation and economic damage, the 3rd world experienced death and malnutrition.

He warned of the educational impact to children. He was right about that too.

He and two other of the world's leading epidemiologists drafted a plan, based on literally centuries of experience, dating back to the plague of Athens. He was called "fringe" by a bureaucrat whose specialty was virology; and mocked for a misrepresented "let it rip" approach and a denial of the existence of herd immunity and natural immunity by that same bureaucrat virologist.

Governments worldwide have been caught making decisions with no scientific basis, and more comes out every day. The Europeans are in the lead, because they are at least less polarized and ridiculous than this country's politicians and bureaucrats.

You're seeing a populist pushback against that, and most of what your side advocates. The people are pissed off, and with good reason.

You know nothing about this, or dismiss what's in plain sight; because you read legacy media that merely reinforces the ludicrous ideas in your echo-chamber.

I can provide credible examples of all of this, but you and others continually dismiss anything that doesn't come from your ministry of truth.

You, who claim to have a degree in English literature, are oblivious to the lessons of Orwell (and Huxley, for that matter) that you supposedly taught.

You're not interested in discussion. You're interested in winning. You exhibit obsessive behavior with your constant posting of Jan 6 trials. Why are you so emotionally attached to that in particular? That's rhetorical. We know why, but you don't.

It takes very little to trigger you and turn you into a foul-mouthed cretin, further demonstrating your instability. Fortunately for you, you have an uncanny knack for ignoring anything that is contrary to your current opinion or state of mind; and we watch you vacillate between "F*ckety McF*ckface" and some wise sage persona - that later caricature easily dismantled.

Now metaphorically cover your ears and leave with your lies about "not listening" (ignoring). We all know it's simply one more lie you tell yourself and others, made more hilarious as you attempt to caveat your way out of it.

As always, I am happy to have discussion. I hold no grudges, but have a long memory. I will continue to mock your idiocy in the mean time, as it pleases me. I have a thicker skin than any of you.

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 04:24 PM
I don't see any reference to the C-word there....

Are you asking for the thread I was referring to? or is it just a dodge to ignore your pronoun problem?

As for David, he outed himself as a spammer and claimed he was hacked. He came back as "monsoon" and gave himself away in the pencil thread.

Consider my background and what friends with resources I have access to. I don't make accusations lightly (unlike you).

Here's your link to "the C-word" (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30840-Combatting-the-virus-and-economic-risk?p=287363&viewfull=1#post287363)

You should revisit that thread from the beginning. Irrational people chimp-screaming out of fear, because of a simple question. I doubt they'll show up in this thread to admit they were wrong.

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 04:31 PM
Exhibit A (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30840-Combatting-the-virus-and-economic-risk?p=287089&viewfull=1#post287089)


Taking a look at this thread this morning, I thought I'd go back and re-read it. Yes the comments did get nasty quick.

For posterity:



Originally Posted by Post #4:
I'd rather be broke than dead. Economies can be rebuilt, but Lazarus appears to be a one-off.

The hyperbole begins.


Originally Posted by Post #11
Ask the dead if they prefer depression and societal calamity... Again, you have no answers. Just pissing-up-a-rope responses.

More hyperbole and "Piss up a rope responses". Yeah, not rude at all.


Originally Posted by Post #12
Frankly, if the mindset is to simply not care if people die, needlessly, for the sake of economic benefit - literally giving their lives for Wall Street - then why even attempt to save anything? Has the concept of human life become so cheapened?

Wow. Because not caring if people die is exactly what the OP was about, right? No misrepresentation there...


Originally Posted by Post #14
The question was loaded to begin with. Serious answers weren't really being sought. The OP has no alternatives but for a link. And the thread descends into BS of a superlative that isn't true but posted for effect.

Yep, no condescension or rudeness there.


Originally Posted by Post #17
Yes you still can argue that you donˋt care that up to 8 - 10% (and yes if the health care systems collapsed it will be for sure such a high percentage as nobody will be able to take care about the medium and heavy cases) death rates, and that economic growth and shareholder value is more important than life's, as the majority of the younger people with no pre-existing illnesses will survive.

Don't care if up to 10% of people die for economic growth... Yeah, that's not a hyperbolic, rude misrepresentation.


Originally Posted by Post #18 (Me)
No, it just demonstrates the inability of most internet denizens to have a calm, rational discussion.

I guess I'm the rude one for pointing out what's clearly demonstrable.


Originally Posted by Post #19
The virus is bringing out diseased thinking. Humanity is not a zero-sum game!

And the bandwagon is ready to roll...


Originally Posted by Post #20
Oh, so you start the thread and then run away when the fatuousness of your position begins to show!

Just for the record, and just like in the tine bending thread, Deb is the first with the insults.


Originally Posted by Post #25
I really wish there would be also a second button beside the “Thanks” button with the opposite meaning.....

And folks are jumping on the bandwagon...


Originally Posted by Post #28
It really is a bit rich trying to adopt the moral high ground about your willingness to have a rational discussion, and then pasting unattributed blog commentary. Let's keep the forum free of russian bot spam, please.

Accusations, accusations...


All this is perfectly acceptable, apparently. I just see lots of stones being thrown from glass houses, but I'm the asshole. I'm the one who is expected to apologize. Yeah, fuck that.

I'll address the WWII comment. It was ridiculous, and as sarcasm was intended to be; in response to the ridiculous posts that prompted it.

And the use of the word "cunt". No, that wasn't directed at Deb. I would have just said that to her. She's more like the spoiled little sister that pokes and pokes, and then plays the victim. I'll have to give that some thought and see if there's a one-word summation. It's not "cunt" though.

It'll be interesting to see how many people are honest and how many continue to ride on the bandwagon of outrage.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 06:36 PM
I don't see any reference to the C-word there....

Are you asking for the thread I was referring to? or is it just a dodge to ignore your pronoun problem?

As for David, he outed himself as a spammer and claimed he was hacked. He came back as "monsoon" and gave himself away in the pencil thread.

Consider my background and what friends with resources I have access to. I don't make accusations lightly (unlike you).

Here's your link to "the C-word" (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30840-Combatting-the-virus-and-economic-risk?p=287363&viewfull=1#post287363)

You should revisit that thread from the beginning. Irrational people chimp-screaming out of fear, because of a simple question. I doubt they'll show up in this thread to admit they were wrong.

So...*you* used the c-word? I don't understand your point. I didn't call anyone that.

Why are you calling me an "idiot" over it? You seem to be slinging slander indiscriminately here.

Look, I know exactly what your Covid position was. You explained it clearly. I don't recall ever giving you shit about it except when I heard you suggest that sacrificing old people was a legitimate strategy.

And just this week I posted two neutral news articles, which resurrected the thread, and you call me an idiot when I agree with your OP and when I say I have evolved in my opinions about lockdowns, etc.
I have nothing more to acknowledge, nothing to apologize for on this topic. You can either post on the topic neutrally like I did and not mention other members, or you can pick these fights all over again with Chuck (and some others, collaterally).

You find ways to insult and fight with people who are even going out of their way to steer clear of you (which I did for 7 months). Like Seney, you dogged me from thread to thread with churlish insults and mockery even though for months I never said a word about you.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 06:41 PM
It's very clear to me that we understand Covid better now than we did at the start. It's clear that we understand repercussions of lockdowns clearer now too. We understand vaccine manufacturing better, and testing better, and preventative measures better. I can't imagine that we will respond the same way again, if all factors are equal. But they aren't likely to be equal, and so we will just have to wait and see. Hopefully, we will not soon encounter a more lethal or otherwise more damaging contagion. If so, all bets are off on what our response will be.

In the best of my opinion.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 06:51 PM
Furthermore, I am sure that I will continue to get every booster and flu shot and vaccination that I am eligible for. I don't argue about this, I don't ask other opinions about it except from my doctor and my wife. I just do it.

724Seney
June 28th, 2023, 06:53 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

Yes, the circle jerk you and Chippie employ is not for us.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 06:55 PM
...Consider my background and what friends with resources I have access to. I don't make accusations lightly (unlike you).

.

Other than the familiar dneal insult, I don't know what this means.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 06:57 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

Yes, the circle jerk you and Chippie employ is not for us.

excellent post!

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 06:57 PM
You implied Seney and I are the same person.


cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

I responded with this:


And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

Clear now? You are often confused with what's going on. (Dear lord am I going to have to quote a lot of your posts for saying that).

To be clear, I'm calling you an idiot.

Here's one more reason why. Rational discussion among emotionally stable people without TDS, WMV or any other of the tribal mental conditions:

Thread: Post Your Contentious Virus Posts Here (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/31087-Post-your-Contentious-Virus-Posts-Here?highlight=dneal)

Note the difference between me, Dave, ethernautrix, mhosea, Dreck, Ray-Vigo, etc... Your first post (#4) is nonsense about roadkill.

Thread: Questioning Conventional Wisdom - The Virus (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30970-Questioning-Conventional-Wisdom-The-virus)

Again, look who is having a rational and on topic discussion, and who makes it about "Trump" and "Clown show" nonsense.

Post 16: Word salad and "we already knew all that".
Post 21: Quibbling about dates and hyperbole about "cheap zingers"
Post 45: Clown show in the White House
Post 62: Your TDS on full display.

YOU are a primary culprit. YOU are a disruption to rational discussion. YOU are one who is unable to behave like an adult. YOU are a primary reason this section has become what it is. I merely respond to your bullshit with mocking and ridicule - and it's not even difficult because you are so absurd.

QED

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 06:58 PM
...Consider my background and what friends with resources I have access to. I don't make accusations lightly (unlike you).

.

Other than the familiar dneal insult, I don't know what this means.

You not knowing what things mean, or what's going; on is common.

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 07:04 PM
It's very clear to me that we understand Covid better now than we did at the start. It's clear that we understand repercussions of lockdowns clearer now too. We understand vaccine manufacturing better, and testing better, and preventative measures better. I can't imagine that we will respond the same way again, if all factors are equal. But they aren't likely to be equal, and so we will just have to wait and see. Hopefully, we will not soon encounter a more lethal or otherwise more damaging contagion. If so, all bets are off on what our response will be.

In the best of my opinion.

Dude, formulate your thoughts and craft a post. This multi-post crap as thoughts pass through your head is also what causes your confusion.

Watch the original Bhattacharya video. That 'fringe' epidemiologist who needed a 'devastating and public takedown'.

He got all that right from the very start. Geert Vanden Bossche was way ahead of everyone on mutation (and why the vaccine strategy not only wouldn't work - but why it was likely to increase mutation).

You didn't know any of that because your media didn't want you to. It just libeled everyone. You drank that kool aide and I was looking for alternate credible opinions.

I wasn't right. I did listen to the people who were. Apparently your judgement has some serious shortfalls.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 07:06 PM
You implied Seney and I are the same person.



I responded with this:


And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

Clear now? You are often confused with what's going on. (Dear lord am I going to have to quote a lot of your posts for saying that).

To be clear, I'm calling you an idiot.

Here's one more reason why. Rational discussion among emotionally stable people without TDS, WMV or any other of the tribal mental conditions:

Thread: Post Your Contentious Virus Posts Here (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/31087-Post-your-Contentious-Virus-Posts-Here?highlight=dneal)

Note the difference between me, Dave, ethernautrix, mhosea, Dreck, Ray-Vigo, etc... Your first post (#4) is nonsense about roadkill.

Thread: Questioning Conventional Wisdom - The Virus (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30970-Questioning-Conventional-Wisdom-The-virus)

Again, look who is having a rational and on topic discussion, and who makes it about "Trump" and "Clown show" nonsense.

Post 16: Word salad and "we already knew all that".
Post 21: Quibbling about dates and hyperbole about "cheap zingers"
Post 45: Clown show in the White House
Post 62: Your TDS on full display.

YOU are a primary culprit. YOU are a disruption to rational discussion. YOU are one who is unable to behave like an adult. YOU are a primary reason this section has become what it is. I merely respond to your bullshit with mocking and ridicule - and it's not even difficult because you are so absurd.

QED

I'm just now realizing that you have these screeds all assembled and organized in your research files against antagonists. That's amazing, and a bit concerning.

You must also have one on EoC. And how many others?

What's wrong with calling Trump s clown? That's exactly what he has shown himself to be. What gets you so worked up into a froth about that? Actually, you and Seney are both in a froth about that.

724Seney
June 28th, 2023, 07:06 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

Seney is a woman. 2nd time you have messed up her pronouns. Go do your penance at the rainbow altar of the woke.

And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

Is "guy" a pronoun?

Well, "she" has never declared as much in any answer to my questions, as far as I remember. So that is one tidbit (not relevant much here) that has come out...I hope that "she" is not upset for you revealing this (if in fact "she" is not "you"). I am remarking on the confluence of posts and ideas and language. Interesting echoes and patterns. Could be coincidence, or influence even. Or more. Some of you have liked to assume of others that they are using multiple identities of posters and seem to know a fair amount about it.

I have no idea what else you are referring to here.

No worries "guys." What's the difference anyway?
Given that nowadays "she's" get hard ons and "he's" need to jam tams you can't really ever know for sure.
Hell, even with a chromosomal analysis which documents ones biological gender woke morons like TSherbs and Chippie waffle.
Me? I'm comfortable in my own skin. I don't worry about pronouns and I have no need to have to use the other sex's bathrooms to feel validated.

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 07:15 PM
You implied Seney and I are the same person.



I responded with this:


And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

Clear now? You are often confused with what's going on. (Dear lord am I going to have to quote a lot of your posts for saying that).

To be clear, I'm calling you an idiot.

Here's one more reason why. Rational discussion among emotionally stable people without TDS, WMV or any other of the tribal mental conditions:

Thread: Post Your Contentious Virus Posts Here (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/31087-Post-your-Contentious-Virus-Posts-Here?highlight=dneal)

Note the difference between me, Dave, ethernautrix, mhosea, Dreck, Ray-Vigo, etc... Your first post (#4) is nonsense about roadkill.

Thread: Questioning Conventional Wisdom - The Virus (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30970-Questioning-Conventional-Wisdom-The-virus)

Again, look who is having a rational and on topic discussion, and who makes it about "Trump" and "Clown show" nonsense.

Post 16: Word salad and "we already knew all that".
Post 21: Quibbling about dates and hyperbole about "cheap zingers"
Post 45: Clown show in the White House
Post 62: Your TDS on full display.

YOU are a primary culprit. YOU are a disruption to rational discussion. YOU are one who is unable to behave like an adult. YOU are a primary reason this section has become what it is. I merely respond to your bullshit with mocking and ridicule - and it's not even difficult because you are so absurd.

QED

I'm just now realizing that you have these screeds all assembled and organized in your research files against antagonists. That's amazing, and a bit concerning.

You must also have one on EoC. And how many others?

What's wrong with calling Trump s clown? That's exactly what he has shown himself to be. What gets you so worked up into a froth about that? Actually, you and Seney are both in a froth about that.

Hardly amazing. Maybe you assume because your memory is shit, that everyone else's is too. I have no research files.

Your deflection and denial, and refusal to admit what is perfectly clear to any rational observer is what's concerning.

It's also the problem - which you refuse to admit to even yourself apparently. But go ahead and post another thread asking why there's no discussion here. You're really that clueless.

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 07:24 PM
Thread: Post Your Contentious Virus Posts Here (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/31087-Post-your-Contentious-Virus-Posts-Here?highlight=dneal)

Note the difference between me, Dave, ethernautrix, mhosea, Dreck, Ray-Vigo, etc... Your first post (#4) is nonsense about roadkill.


This is a hoot. First of all, how long do you remember and hold on to this stuff? And you call me obsessed? I had no recollection of this from 2020 at all. Can you not forget these anger points? Do you keep forum search results tucked away for later assassinations?

In a thread titled "contentious" by the OP and that started with a humorous meme (since deleted, apparently), I posted a joke. Which Ethernautrix got. And which you are now calling "QED idiocy" on?

Even for you, this is seeming unhinged from reality (and certainly evidence of a lack of a funny bone).

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 07:26 PM
cool

Hey, Seney just said the same thing on another thread

hmmm

you guys sure work in tandem

Seney is a woman. 2nd time you have messed up her pronouns. Go do your penance at the rainbow altar of the woke.

And if you really think we’re the same person, I’ll point you to the thread where we were disagreeing about who I did or didn’t call a cunt. It’s a covid one too.

Is "guy" a pronoun?

Well, "she" has never declared as much in any answer to my questions, as far as I remember. So that is one tidbit (not relevant much here) that has come out...I hope that "she" is not upset for you revealing this (if in fact "she" is not "you"). I am remarking on the confluence of posts and ideas and language. Interesting echoes and patterns. Could be coincidence, or influence even. Or more. Some of you have liked to assume of others that they are using multiple identities of posters and seem to know a fair amount about it.

I have no idea what else you are referring to here.

No worries "guys." What's the difference anyway?
Given that nowadays "she's" get hard ons and "he's" need to jam tams you can't really ever know for sure.
Hell, even with a chromosomal analysis which documents ones biological gender woke morons like TSherbs and Chippie waffle.
Me? I'm comfortable in my own skin. I don't worry about pronouns and I have no need to have to use the other sex's bathrooms to feel validated.

excellent post

724Seney
June 28th, 2023, 07:27 PM
Thread: Post Your Contentious Virus Posts Here (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/31087-Post-your-Contentious-Virus-Posts-Here?highlight=dneal)

Note the difference between me, Dave, ethernautrix, mhosea, Dreck, Ray-Vigo, etc... Your first post (#4) is nonsense about roadkill.


This is a hoot. First of all, how long do you remember and hold on to this stuff? And you call me obsessed? I had no recollection of this from 2020 at all. Can you not forget these anger points? Do you keep forum search results tucked away for later assassinations?

In a thread titled "contentious" by the OP and that started with a humorous meme (since deleted, apparently), I posted a joke. Which Ethernautrix got. And which you are now calling "QED idiocy" on?

Even for you, this is seeming unhinged from reality (and certainly evidence of a lack of a funny bone).

WAIT!
WHAT?

You are accusing someone else of being "unhinged from reality?"
Apparently you still have not learned about the concept of "projection" pal.
Want me to run it by you again?

TSherbs
June 28th, 2023, 07:33 PM
I don't know what is up with Seney and dneal (assuming that they are two different persons), but they are both broadly vitriolic today in the extreme, even more than usual.

724Seney
June 28th, 2023, 07:40 PM
I don't know what is up with Seney and dneal (assuming that they are two different persons), but they are both broadly vitriolic today in the extreme, even more than usual.

:dance3:

dneal
June 28th, 2023, 08:26 PM
Thread: Post Your Contentious Virus Posts Here (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/31087-Post-your-Contentious-Virus-Posts-Here?highlight=dneal)

Note the difference between me, Dave, ethernautrix, mhosea, Dreck, Ray-Vigo, etc... Your first post (#4) is nonsense about roadkill.


This is a hoot. First of all, how long do you remember and hold on to this stuff? And you call me obsessed? I had no recollection of this from 2020 at all. Can you not forget these anger points? Do you keep forum search results tucked away for later assassinations?

In a thread titled "contentious" by the OP and that started with a humorous meme (since deleted, apparently), I posted a joke. Which Ethernautrix got. And which you are now calling "QED idiocy" on?

Even for you, this is seeming unhinged from reality (and certainly evidence of a lack of a funny bone).

Apparently you're engaging your "literary criticism" pseudo-education and interpreting my posts.

You think I'm angry? Hardly. That's more of your interpretation. My funny bone is (if anything) overworked reading your posts. The joke's on you, as I point out the absurdities; repeatedly. Didn't you find the rosary bead joke funny? Lord knows the jokes extrapolating your ignorance to what your students must be suffering got under your skin; and in typical TSherbs fashion, you interpreted that to be a slight against your profession. Stepping up on your moral high ground soapbox and signaling your indignation.

Anyway, and not surprising; you simply ignore reality rather than address it. Couch it however makes you feel good, twist it as you like, but we both know you can't refute it directly or you would have.

The reason I remember it so well is simply that you periodically prompt me to reiterate it. Read Moonwalking With Einstein and you'll learn about memory.

TSherbs
June 29th, 2023, 07:50 AM
It's not difficult to "interpret" your pattern of trolling me now through every thread, shit posting against me for your own weird satisfaction.

I thought that you are an adult, but your stated desires to argue and win and be acknowledged as having been "right", and your lasting memories of all the slights you perceive against you (and your clear lasting anger) are all suggestive of either an actual adolescent or an adult stuck in adolescent mindset.

TSherbs
June 29th, 2023, 07:58 AM
It's like you're trying to show off now (seek respect and admiration for) just how nasty and adroit you are with disparagement. You've bragged about this before, if I recall correctly. Gave us warning that we had no idea how nasty you could be if you didn't follow your rules of logic, reason, and disputation.

I suppose that you are now demonstrating, to your self-satisfaction, the truth of this.

TSherbs
June 29th, 2023, 08:16 AM
...The joke's on you, as I point out the absurdities; repeatedly. See, here is an attempt to declare a mocking, humiliating victory: "I win." This isn't hard to interpret, dneal. You repeat your sense of victory dozens of times around here.



Couch it however makes you feel good, twist it as you like, but we both know you can't refute it directly or you would have. This is you claiming another victory, over a person who has said repeatedly that he does not want to argue with you, and even stopped responding to you for seven months. This is just how a troll tries to bait others into conflict: suggest, needle, and declare victories if the other person does not respond: "If you don't respond, that means that I am right." This kind of argument is neither "logical" nor "reasonable." It is just trolling.

TSherbs
June 29th, 2023, 08:26 AM
And for some reason you keep mocking me for setting up that poll about why more people don't post on these back pages. You have trolled me for weeks about that, blaming me for the lack of posting back here. It was as if you took personally the idea of the poll, which assigned blame in no way to anyone and actually did not attempt to make "conversations" better in these threads (you threw that charge against me in mockery, repeatedly). I was simply curious why people didn't post here, and the answer was a mix of "I am not interested in posting on these topics on a pen site" and "the tone is too nasty." None of it was about you or me or anyone else in particular, but you sure ended up weaponizing it against me as you followed me around through these threads. IF I recall correctly, the largest group simply said that they weren't interested in discussions on those topics here. How does this get transformed into your righteous, vindictive posting behavior?

Do you blame everyone but yourself? I certainly know that I am responsible for the tone of every post that *I* make.

forum poll results (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/poll.php?pollid=45&do=showresults)

dneal
June 29th, 2023, 08:57 AM
It's not difficult to "interpret" your pattern of trolling me now through every thread, shit posting against me for your own weird satisfaction.

I thought that you are an adult, but your stated desires to argue and win and be acknowledged as having been "right", and your lasting memories of all the slights you perceive against you (and your clear lasting anger) are all suggestive of either an actual adolescent or an adult stuck in adolescent mindset.

I assume your multi-post rant means you’re triggered again.

Since your memory seems lacking again, I’ll reiterate my position.

I intend to make this section as miserable for you as you have made it for others. I will respond to rational, thoughtful posts with rational, thoughtful responses. I will mercilessly mock and ridicule partisan nonsense. I will also reiterate a matter of fact: I am much more skilled and ruthless than you, and have a thicker skin. I can take it as well as dish it out. You stooges can only do the latter.

Feel free to leave me on ignore.

TSherbs
June 29th, 2023, 09:27 AM
[
.... I will respond to rational, thoughtful posts with rational, thoughtful responses.

That's not what you did, above, when I resurrected this thread and posted my current outlook on Covid. You went off and called us all "idiots, " including me. You have since repeated the idiot charge over material having nothing to do with my rational, thoughtful post(s) about my current position.

So, we'll see how honest you are in this statement.

dneal
June 29th, 2023, 10:23 AM
You should revisit post 75.

724Seney
June 29th, 2023, 10:36 AM
[
.... I will respond to rational, thoughtful posts with rational, thoughtful responses.

That's not what you did, above, when I resurrected this thread and posted my current outlook on Covid. You went off and called us all "idiots, " including me. You have since repeated the idiot charge over material having nothing to do with my rational, thoughtful post(s) about my current position.

So, we'll see how honest you are in this statement.

Face it pal, he's right. He won.
Not even close.
And now your nearly lifeless carcass is upright only because you got caught in the ropes.
If we had a referee, the fight would have been ended due to a TKO.
You barely made it through Round 3.
Admit it.....to yourself.......everyone else is well aware.
Once you do so and see your way to getting some help, everyone's lives will be better. No one more than you........
And, whatever you do, do not wait for Chippie to come to your rescue. He won't. You're not his type.

TSherbs
June 29th, 2023, 01:13 PM
[

Face it pal, he's right. He won.
Not even close.


And now you have this moniker declaring victory for you, too?

1001-0

Chuck Naill
June 30th, 2023, 04:58 PM
In times of uncertainty, do more than you think is necessary. Support people who went to school and became experts. It is better to do too much than too little. Common sense!!

Better to be alive than right.

dneal
June 30th, 2023, 08:04 PM
You should find a mentor to teach you about admitting your sins if you want salvation. Pride comes before the fall.

Chuck Naill
July 1st, 2023, 06:12 AM
"Wisdom is justified by her children". Jesus, Luke 7:35

dneal
July 1st, 2023, 06:18 AM
Yours seems to have aborted hers.

Chuck Naill
July 1st, 2023, 11:34 AM
I understand you desperately want to save face. Or, maybe want to troll. Maybe post another video of a British nurse educator. At last you must decide and land. Even your wife had enough sense. Good for her.

I chose a more evidenced based, less political path. I never contracted the virus until I moved. Just a bad cold. I’m up to date.

Get well soon.

dneal
July 1st, 2023, 11:56 AM
I understand you desperately want to save face.

Confession through projection. Only one of us has need to save face, and it isn’t me.

I’m not the self righteous ‘Christian’ who told someone they shouldn’t get an ICU bed.

Nearly everything about your narrative is collapsing. Mortality rate, ‘vaccine’ efficacy, ‘vaccine’ harm, masks, etc…

You just refuse to acknowledge reality - but that’s nothing new.

Chuck Naill
July 1st, 2023, 02:56 PM
Had you any substance of character , you would have never taken an ICU bed from someone who attempted to follow simple pandemic protocols.

What you are projecting is , I want it my way and if it doesn’t work out, I want to live.

dneal
July 1st, 2023, 03:00 PM
Were you a true adherent to Jesus’ teachings, you would never have implied that someone should die.

We knew you were a hypocrite, but this one really takes the cake.

You should probably pray over your decidedly un-Christian behavior.

Chuck Naill
July 1st, 2023, 03:21 PM
Were you a true adherent to Jesus’ teachings, you would never have implied that someone should die.

We knew you were a hypocrite, but this one really takes the cake.

You should probably pray over your decidedly un-Christian behavior.

First you would need to be a true adherent of Jesus! Would Jesus force you to mask,get a vaccine, or distance?

If you decide not to follow expert advice and die, whose fault is it? I can tell you haven’t thought through this at all. You’re a novice.

Tell me this, if one bed in the ICU ward is available, who deserves it?? The person who tried or the one, like you, who didn’t???!

You can’t win this argument.
You were wrong then and now.

dneal
July 1st, 2023, 03:30 PM
Were you a true adherent to Jesus’ teachings, you would never have implied that someone should die.


First you would need to be a true adherent of Jesus!

I'm glad you are grasping the point. Wishing someone was denied help, or that they die for a choice you disagree with, doesn't seem to be something a true adherent would want. Maybe you should focus on that first.

WWJD? He might be speaking to you through me, to teach you about humility, and love for your fellow man.

Chuck Naill
July 1st, 2023, 03:40 PM
No, WWJD was a good idea from a non adhered perspective. Lol! You should not be having to be told this, @dneal!!

I simply said that if you were not willing to protect yourself, you shouldn’t demand or expect others to run to your rescue.

WWJD? He would respect your wishes.

The Kingdom of God is still available to you regardless of your ideology! Blessed are the Stupid, the KOG is available.

dneal
July 1st, 2023, 04:10 PM
Chuck, I'm not the person running around lecturing people on the Bible, Jesus and some need for a mentor.

That's you.

I'm simply pointing out you are not practicing what you preach, and that you're clearly a hypocrite on something you claim to believe.

You only need to ask for forgiveness, and it will be granted. Pride is a mortal sin. Repent and be saved.

We all fall short of the glory of Christ, but it seems that some fall shorter than others. Does your pastor know you thought someone should die if they didn’t agree with you? You should probably show them your posts.

Chuck Naill
July 1st, 2023, 04:16 PM
So, many non disciples have opined.

I’d you decide to kill your self you can, no harm no foul. You are not exempt.

What @dneal wants is, if you decide to kill yourself, you should have options.

Jesus should save you and Christians are obliged to save you.

I don’t understand?!

dneal
July 1st, 2023, 05:07 PM
I think it’s obvious that you don’t understand.

Let me help, since we only have a few more posts before you are so triggered that you become completely unintelligible. To the scientist, it’s called cognitive dissonance. To the Christian, that’s your conscience battling your false pride. Jesus vs the Devil within your soul.

We’re talking about the unchristian thing you said.

You can lie to me and you can lie to yourself, but you can’t lie to Jesus.

dneal
July 1st, 2023, 08:51 PM
78575

TSherbs
July 2nd, 2023, 09:21 AM
removed

TSherbs
July 2nd, 2023, 09:29 AM
----wrong thread---

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 09:39 AM
As always, @dneal is on the wrong side of prudence. So while he incessantly whines over me telling him, if he wasn't going to protect himself, he shouldn't demand an ICU bed, he is now saying that if you are 70, it's okay if you died.

What I see is a constant self congratulatory stream of an attempt to say, "I was right all along". Sure, if you live in a cave, alone, you didn't need to do anything. You didn't even have to vote or make an excuse for not voting. Basiscally you were already dead to the world. However, for those of us who wanted to live, other means were necessary.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 12:30 PM
Chuck, I’ve already said I wasn’t right. I said it looks like I listened to the experts who were.

Looks to me like you still need to do some praying about pride and how you treat your fellow man. You were clearly wrong in fact about some things, and morally wrong about others. Christians don’t wish harm, but you did.

You can’t lie to Jesus. You know you are, but don’t have the humility to admit what is plain.

Would you like me to direct you to a mentor?

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 12:40 PM
You were not right for the majority of people who had to work and be in public. We didn't live in caves or our own making. At least your wife had some sense. Your arrogance in demanding an ICU bed is telling. That really set you off didn't it!!

I understand that you're trolling with the religious stuff, but it doesn't change anything. Children are justified by her children. Ponder this as you consider your next post.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 12:47 PM
You're getting triggered again Chuck. That's Jesus trying to get you to admit what you know is true.

I didn't demand anything. Why must you make up more lies, other than your vanity?

I'm not trolling with the religious stuff. I'm pointing out you are not following your religion. At best, it makes you a hypocrite and eliminates any credibility you have with your proselytizing. At worst, it's damning your soul.

I didn't bring this thread back up. You and TSherbs did. I did warn you though:


You really want to pick this scab?

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 01:05 PM
You're getting triggered again Chuck. That's Jesus trying to get you to admit what you know is true.

I didn't demand anything. Why must you make up more lies, other than your vanity?

I'm not trolling with the religious stuff. I'm pointing out you are not following your religion. At best, it makes you a hypocrite and eliminates any credibility you have with your proselytizing. At worst, it's damning your soul.

I didn't bring this thread back up. You and TSherbs did. I did warn you though:


You really want to pick this scab?

Oh, I remember. You were very upset and that you still recall even verifies. You went berserk

For me, I got the recommended vaccines, plus boosters, distanced, and wore the mask. I didn't drink bleach or take horse wormer. I did criticism Fauci or post Trump generated conspiracies. You'll have to live with the nonsense you chose to post. My conscience is clear. I would do the same again. Good thing you were isolated with your conspiracies. Had I needed an ICU bed, I would have had no problem asking for one, but would have been sensitive to the medical professionals trying to save me.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 01:12 PM
I went berserk? I don't think you and I are living in the same reality. You can revisit post 75 as well.

You've been berserk since the beginning, even telling someone they shouldn't get treatment if they discover they were misled or wrong.

Trying to dance around your unchristian words and deeds with misdirection sounds to me like the Devil's work. Your false pride is the Devil's voice, manifesting here in this forum.

Please pray about your hubris. Your salvation depends on it - unless you're one of those who believes just getting dunked in front of a congregation gives you a free pass for all your following sin.

-edit-

Just noticed your signature.

“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

Are you walking humbly? Are you acting justly? Is hoping someone doesn't ask for an ICU bed for a virus loving mercy?

The truth is right there in front of you, but you are denying it, and by extension denying Jesus.

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 01:16 PM
Yes, crazy berserk. At the time it wasn't something I found humorous, but a desperate person reaching out for mercy. I am glad you were protected from yourself.

Walking humbly, @dneal, is respecting nature, for which he created. Ever sprinkle pepper on your entree? Ever sneeze as a result? Next time wear a mask and see if you sneeze.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 01:18 PM
Chuck, the only crazy-sounding things I've posted are in imitation of your "lol's" and laughy-faces, to show you how it looks.

Lies come from Satan. They're festering in your heart. Don't give in!

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 01:20 PM
Chuck, the only crazy-sounding things I've posted are in imitation of your "lol's" and laughy-faces, to show you how it looks.

Lies come from Satan. They're festering in your heart. Don't give in!

I saw too many locals die, @dneal, from believing the same things you were posting.

I read ICU nurses quoting their dying patients repeating the stuff you were posting. If no one else tells you the truth, that's too bad. Your advice was wrong. You failed the community.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 01:34 PM
Chuck, the only crazy-sounding things I've posted are in imitation of your "lol's" and laughy-faces, to show you how it looks.

Lies come from Satan. They're festering in your heart. Don't give in!

I saw too many locals die, @dneal, from believing the same things you were posting.

I read ICU nurses quoting their dying patients repeating the stuff you were posting. If no one else tells you the truth, that's too bad. Your advice was wrong. You failed the community.

Chuck, you're posting crazy-sounding things in these rants - but you're projecting that on me.

You listened to Fauci. It was his policy we followed. He has been caught repeatedly lying and manipulating everything from funding virus research, to masks, to accusing renowned epidemiologists of being "fringe" - and that they needed a "devastating and public takedown" for daring to disagree with him. It's all documented, but you refused to read it. I didn't.

Dr. Bhattacharya is an epidemiologist (Fauci isn't), I found him much more credible. Turns out he was right and Fauci was wrong.

Many of those deaths you cite are a result of Fauci's recommendations. "Fauci lied, people died" becomes more true every day.


BUT

None of that has anything to do with your unchristian attitudes and behavior. Why do you keep dancing around that? Are you so desperate to "win" some internet argument that you would risk your soul? Satan is winning, not you.

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 01:45 PM
Yet, Micheal Osterholm is an epidemiologist. He said the virus was an aerosolized type. I've been posting him for nearly three years. The difference is, he didn't say what you wanted to hear.

Fauci didn't lie. Trump was wrong. You were wrong. Your wife was right.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 01:48 PM
And you dodge away from Fauci's emails even more quickly than you dodge away from Jesus' teachings.

Seek help. Find a mentor. Pray for truth and forgiveness. Your false pride is the work of the Devil. Cast him off.

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 02:06 PM
And you dodge away from Fauci's emails even more quickly than you dodge away from Jesus' teachings.

Seek help. Find a mentor. Pray for truth and forgiveness. Your false pride is the work of the Devil. Cast him off.

Nothing I have posted originated in me, making pride is an irrational and nonexistent attempt to repulse me. It will not work. I appeal to those greater than me, who have been educated in the realm of infectious disease, not Donald Trump, as you did.

"An honest witness tells the truth, but a false witness tells lies." If there was a better way, Jesus would be the first to tell you so. Trump was a lie that you believed. You were fooled and because of your arrogance. You do it still. You can't hide because you didn't vote. You have supported Trump all along.

As someone, somewhere said, "have I become your enemy by telling you the truth."? There are topics for which we agree. Some we don't. I would never knowingly tell you something that was not true. I don't trust you to do the same.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 02:11 PM
Chuck, I can only explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.

I find it concerning you're quoting Jesus to defend behavior we both know Jesus wouldn't condone.

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 02:21 PM
Chuck, I can only explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.

I find it concerning you're quoting Jesus to defend behavior we both know Jesus wouldn't condone.

He would. I can't help that you don't understand. After all, he is God to me and not God for you. Which of us has the intellectual advantage?

I've pointed out that Jesus considered himself to be God. You argued against. So, why are you suddenly concerned about anything? I understand you need something to troll about.

What you really need to do is forget me and focus on him. Eternal life is knowing the father and him, not me. I don't want say anything that would cause you to stumble.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 02:34 PM
Jesus would say don’t get an ICU bed because you were misled?

I’m not sure you’re the person one should listen to in these matters.

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 02:37 PM
Jesus would say don’t get an ICU bed because you were misled?

I’m not sure you’re the person one should listen to in these matters.

No, he would say if you know a better way, do it. Trust those that know more than you do, like Fauci. Don't trust Trump as you did.

Don't listen to me. Read the scriptures.

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 02:43 PM
If he wouldn’t say it, why did you? More importantly, if you realize it’s not keeping with his teaching, why do you persist?

Sounds to me like the Devil’s got a hold on you.

Pride is a mortal sin.

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 02:56 PM
How is it not in keeping with his teaching @dneal?

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 03:12 PM
That's the question you're struggling with. I already told you I can't understand it for you.

Show your pastor/mentor your posts. Maybe they can help.

Until then, bless your heart.

Chuck Naill
July 3rd, 2023, 03:29 PM
That's the question you're struggling with. I already told you I can't understand it for you.

Show your pastor/mentor your posts. Maybe they can help.

Until then, bless your heart.

You don't know do you, @deal?

dneal
July 3rd, 2023, 04:11 PM
Chuck, why are you still trying to deflect from your unchristian attitude? You're not fooling anyone, especially Jesus.

You said I didn't deserve an ICU bed. Why would you want me harmed simply because I saw many reasons to doubt an "expert" who lies, and chose to listen to an expert who was right all along?

Either way, Jesus wouldn't wish me harm. A true follower of Christ wouldn't either.

You did.

That's for you to reconcile in your heart. You know the answer, but your sinful pride won't let you admit it. Where does that sinful pride come from? It ain't Jesus, so I can only think of one other person/place. Maybe it's the same entity that convinced you to listen to a liar.

You were given an opportunity to hear from a Christian doctor, here on this forum. The Lord does work in mysterious ways, but you chose to mock and insult that Christian doctor. Where do you think that attitude came from? It certainly wasn’t Christ.

You really need to pray over that. Seriously.

Chuck Naill
July 5th, 2023, 03:36 PM
I didn't wish you harm, @dneal. I said something to the effect, if you won't follow medical expertise, don't expect the same system to offer you a bed. If you don't trust the distancing, masks, and vaccines, why trust them by asking them to give you an ICU bed and then force you to distance and be kept away from them other other non infected people while offering you meds from the same institution you think are not telling the truth/

If there was a better way, Jesus would have been the first to tell you to do it. I would to. There wasn't. At the time, given the nature of an aerosolized pathogen, distancing is the rational thing to do if you were to be in public.

The factor you are leaving out, is yourself. You chose to believe one thing and not the other. Had you ended up needing an ICU bed, I am not at fault and neither is God. You, and you alone, made the decisions you did.

There is no reconciliation for me since I didn't force you to do what you did. I gave you the advice that Fauci and other medical experts recommended at a most difficult time. It is like the advice you give a teen when they first begin to drive and be on their own. You over do the advice in case the exception occurs.

By posting non proven advice, you may have caused others harm and most likely ended their lives by following advice that went against sound infection control. What say you now? Do you feel guilty or remorseful?

I've said this in the other thread, God lets you decide. If you chose to be an apprentice of Jesus, you will. If you don't you won't. It is the same with your life and how you think. I am not your excuse. As I said before, grace is getting what you do not deserve, but your intent is necessary.

So, had you needed an ICU bed, is there someone to blame, in your mind? If so, who? Was it the Christian doctor or the one's not being dishonest? Is there ever in your mind, the idea that you are at fault for how your life has turned out?

Chuck Naill
July 5th, 2023, 04:08 PM
There is also the sense, that if we made it through the pandemic, everything we did was correct, and we have bragging rights. That is the basis of the logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

When in a crisis, we appeal to those who have invested their lives to the problem we are facing. They may be wrong, but why would they lie? What would be the purpose? Some fabricate a theory. Others go totally against their training, again, we must ask why?

If you don't trust the system to tell you the truth, don't then trust them to save your butt.

dneal
July 5th, 2023, 06:55 PM
Chuck, you're simply ignoring reality.

Twist it as you like, but everyone knows what you said about an ICU bed - more than once. It's decidedly not Christian, and neither was the attack on Bold. Your lying about all this is hardly something Jesus would approve of either.

Jesus knows what's in your heart, and sees your petty vanity.

Rin Tin Pen
July 6th, 2023, 08:11 PM
A Lancet review of 325 autopsies after Covid vaccination found that 74% of the deaths were caused by the vaccine – but the study was removed within 24 hours. Link to article through Twitter post HERE (https://twitter.com/CartlandDavid/status/1676946627406229504?s=20).

dneal
July 6th, 2023, 08:18 PM
You should look at the Cleveland Clinic study that was published.

You’ll be triggering the Covidian cultists, so get ready for a bunch of vitriolic nonsense.

Chuck Naill
July 7th, 2023, 06:24 AM
Chuck, you're simply ignoring reality.

Twist it as you like, but everyone knows what you said about an ICU bed - more than once. It's decidedly not Christian, and neither was the attack on Bold. Your lying about all this is hardly something Jesus would approve of either.

Jesus knows what's in your heart, and sees your petty vanity.


I will say it again, if you refuse to accept medical expertise, as you did, but your spouse didn't, and while the ICU beds are in short supply or not available at all, you shouldn't except to be given one. It is presumption on your part and not treating others as you would want to be treated. It is to fly in the face of what is good and expect to benefit. Whatever you think about me is the least of importance. What is important in what you choose to do about your own life and what is means to have a good life.

I am not suggesting that my words were always as they should have been, but my motivation was always to protect my neighbors, coworkers, our patients, and family. If the vaccine was dangerous, I did it anyway. If a mask or distance didn't help, I was out so little to practice regardless.

The politicalization of the pandemic was an embarrassment in the US.

dneal
July 7th, 2023, 08:50 AM
You're still twisting yourself in rhetorical knots. I accepted medical expertise, and it turns out my experts were right and yours were wrong.

My side didn't politicize it, but I agree that those who did are an embarrassment.

TSherbs
July 7th, 2023, 09:51 AM
....

My side didn't politicize it,....

That's false.

Chuck Naill
July 7th, 2023, 10:32 AM
I’m really not, but you always use those terms, dodge and twist when you have nothing to add. It’s your way, always. You’re critical of others when their truth originates in their preferences, but are blinded when it’s your preferred source.

No, you were right in your own mind and you hibernated to boot, which was a viable option. Since I was working, hibernating wasn’t an option.

The people who died around me, and who got sick, were anti—“fill in the blanks”. They gathered, believed Trump, watched videos, tried to get ivermectin, conspired to make fun of mask wearing, and generally made a nuisance of themselves. So no, you may have been right as a hermit, but not someone, like an ICU nurse for whom you would have gladly thrust yourself upon.

Chuck Naill
July 7th, 2023, 10:45 AM
Good thing a couple of us have a good memory.

Isn’t he the same one who glorified Trump and now wants to move on?

dneal
July 7th, 2023, 12:22 PM
....

My side didn't politicize it,....

That's false.

Which side called 3 esteemed epidemiologists “fringe”, and libeled their “Great Barrington Declaration” a “let it rip” strategy?

Which side screamed they wouldn’t take a “Trump vaccine”, up until they assumed office?

I can list much more, but it’s clear you’re another Covidian cultist.

dneal
July 7th, 2023, 12:24 PM
I’m really not, but you always use those terms, dodge and twist when you have nothing to add. It’s your way, always. You’re critical of others when their truth originates in their preferences, but are blinded when it’s your preferred source.

No, you were right in your own mind and you hibernated to boot, which was a viable option. Since I was working, hibernating wasn’t an option.

The people who died around me, and who got sick, were anti—“fill in the blanks”. They gathered, believed Trump, watched videos, tried to get ivermectin, conspired to make fun of mask wearing, and generally made a nuisance of themselves. So no, you may have been right as a hermit, but not someone, like an ICU nurse for whom you would have gladly thrust yourself upon.

I use those terms because it’s applicable.

I didn’t “hibernate”, and that’s just another example of your misrepresentation to dodge facts.

Chuck Naill
July 7th, 2023, 12:41 PM
I always address your nonsense. You’ve been wrong about infectious diseases and who to support politically. You’re safe on both counts because you chose to hibernate and not vote. Not voting isn’t a superior part of valor.

TSherbs
July 7th, 2023, 01:38 PM
....

My side didn't politicize it,....

That's false.

Which side called 3 esteemed epidemiologists “fringe”, and libeled their “Great Barrington Declaration” a “let it rip” strategy?

Which side screamed they wouldn’t take a “Trump vaccine”, up until they assumed office?

I can list much more, but it’s clear you’re another Covidian cultist.
Your lie is in my quote above. Nice try at the whataboutism tho.

dneal
July 7th, 2023, 02:55 PM
You haven’t done anything but make an assertion. You present no evidence to substantiate it. The question is one of sides, so for me to present proof of the side that did politicize it is hardly whataboutism.

You taught children to think critically? Dear god.

I believe I have discovered part of the reason for falling test scores nationally.

Chuck Naill
July 7th, 2023, 03:35 PM
Aren’t you attempting to hold me to a standard of behavior for which you don’t seem to be able to produce in yourself?

You would say many times the same responses to anyone for whom you disagree. I’ve read them often, “you made my point”, “you’re a hypocrite “, you’re twisting yourself into knots”, and such. You might see this as some sort of tactical rebuttal, but it’s obvious, you don’t have any experience or knowledge in this line of discussion. Why not just admit, occasionally, that you may have plowed the wrong field?

dneal
July 7th, 2023, 04:30 PM
Chuck, I'm able to; and have a long history evidencing it. You and your fellow stooges? Not so much.

TSherbs
July 7th, 2023, 04:43 PM
You haven’t done anything but make an assertion. You present no evidence to substantiate it.

Nope, I didn't. Nice baiting try tho. And a gratuitous dig at my profession. <check>

What more personal aspersions are coming? Seney too, perhaps?

dneal
July 7th, 2023, 05:00 PM
You haven’t done anything but make an assertion. You present no evidence to substantiate it.

Nope, I didn't. Nice baiting try tho. And a gratuitous dig at my profession. <check>

What more personal aspersions are coming? Seney too, perhaps?

Feel free to offer some evidence, or point out what you think I missed.

I said "my side didn't politicize it".

You said "That's false".

When challenged, you said your proof was in the quote.

So what is "my side"? What's false about it? I don't think you know, and I'm sure you can't articulate it accurately.

As for the rest and your whining about your profession, you're wrong again. I'm not talking about your profession. I'm talking about you. If it's "your profession" that set back reading and math scores by 40 years, your profession deserves much more criticism than I'm leveling against you.

-edit-

If you look at the bottom of the page, you'll see that Seney and I are both logged on. I don't know why you think we're the same person, but not much of what you believe comports with reality. I'll just chuck this in the "TSherbs is a delusional idiot" bucket with the rest.

724Seney
July 7th, 2023, 05:03 PM
You haven’t done anything but make an assertion. You present no evidence to substantiate it.

Nope, I didn't. Nice baiting try tho. And a gratuitous dig at my profession. <check>

What more personal aspersions are coming? Seney too, perhaps?

Ask and ye shall receive:

"Profession?"
Don't flatter yourself TSherbs. You were, and remain, anything but a professional.

Teaching was your occupation. And, you weren't very good at it.
Hence, "early" retirement. Wink, wink.

TSherbs
July 7th, 2023, 07:21 PM
And there's Seney, right on cue.

1004-0

724Seney
July 7th, 2023, 07:40 PM
And there's Seney, right on cue.

1004-0

You asked for it........
You got it.

TSherbs
July 8th, 2023, 04:37 AM
Doctor Seney and Mr. Jim
When [s]he's called, you're gonna notice him

TSherbs
July 8th, 2023, 05:22 AM
".

When challenged, you said your proof was in the quote.

.

No, I did not say this. You are misreading, or misrepresenting, again.

Maybe this is one form of your baiting tactics. Nice try tho.

dneal
July 8th, 2023, 06:38 AM
Yes, you are correct. You said "your lie is in my quote above".

Still selectively quoting and pedantic, but I'll give you a half a point for the pettiness.

1005 v 1/2

Happy now?

Chuck Naill
July 8th, 2023, 07:18 AM
Looks like you're trying to reinvent your history.

dneal
July 8th, 2023, 07:49 AM
More yawn worthy trolling.

Your history is single-handedly destroying a forum (Wharf in exile), while pretending to be a woman.

As an aside, your inability to identify the transvestism in the current administration makes more sense in that context.

Chuck Naill
July 8th, 2023, 08:08 AM
That was a good forum. We discussed Flat Earth theory for over six months. There was one member who believed the world was flat. We discussed religion. There was a Buddhist. There was one Fundamentalist.

You wouldn't last as week on that forum. If I remember, you couldn't have two member profiles as you have here. Just stay here, @dneal. Big fish in a small pond, as they say. Am I being mean, hypocritical, petty, twisting myself, or something else?

dneal
July 8th, 2023, 08:35 AM
Based on what I saw from the other posters, yes it was a good forum. Your cyber-transvestite alter ego killed it.

TSherbs
July 8th, 2023, 10:58 AM
"new and improved" thread

<check>

dneal
July 8th, 2023, 12:39 PM
"new and improved" thread

<check>

Who trashed it? Who topped it?

Check, indeed.

dneal
July 13th, 2023, 05:30 PM
Back on topic…

Fauci knew Wuhan was doing gain of function research on bat coronaviruses.

Fauci lied, people died.

78840


78841


78839

dneal
July 13th, 2023, 07:31 PM
Chuck - No "LOL's" and emojis?

I told you your narratives were collapsing.

dneal
July 13th, 2023, 11:09 PM
I guess we now know why the NIH originally redacted the text of that email.

78848

dneal
July 14th, 2023, 01:15 PM
Chuck, I asked if you really wanted to pick this scab.

I find it odd you’re not responding.

Chuck Naill
July 14th, 2023, 02:07 PM
Sorry, I’ve been focusing on my conversation with Ted on the Christian between Friday chores. I’ll read and respond later.

Chuck Naill
July 14th, 2023, 02:21 PM
There has been nothing Fauci has said that makes me think he was intentionally misleading. I’ve heard him asked directly about the virus origin.

What I do know was that his advice for individuals to take personal responsibility for keeping themselves and others safe was well within the scope of acceptable infection control and something I had practiced and seen in practice for my entire career.

I have heard people say they took a flu shot and got the flu for most of my adult life. Sine you can’t get infected by an attenuated vaccine, I just listened and made no comment.

I’ve been surrounded by evangelicals who are anti vaccine.

What I have noticed is that medical professionals do is what is considered acceptable practices. Those people like the nurse you posted from Great Britain were not being held to a standard. Fauci represents the American medical profession and community. Remember, he was continuing to see patients.

All of this to say, yes, it it good to reopen these discussions. Americans could have saved lives had they listened to people like Micheal Osterhom who specialize in epidemiology and ignored YouTube.

dneal
July 14th, 2023, 03:41 PM
There has been nothing Fauci has said that makes me think he was intentionally misleading. I’ve heard him asked directly about the virus origin.

What he hid through a redaction doesn't raise a little suspicion?

Just off the top of my head: I'm pretty sure Fauci denounced the "lab-leak" theory and told us it was from a natural origin. Kristian Andersen thought it was likely it was engineered, but 4 days after a conference call with Fauci, he published a letter in Nature magazine saying it was likely natural origin.

CNN questioned Fauci on why he was changing his mind about "natural origin" way back in 2021. (https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/24/politics/fauci-donald-trump-coronavirus/index.html)

I could direct you to many conversations with that "eye doctor" in the Senate, about gain of function (not to mention natural immunity); but ok. I'll just watch the data as it keeps coming.

Whatever you do, don't look into:

- Excess deaths
- Vaccines with no vaccine in it
- Mask efficacy meta-analysis

Fauci lied, people died. No causal claim there - just a correlation.

Chuck Naill
July 14th, 2023, 03:58 PM
I understand aerosolized bacteria and virus transmission, @dneal, and how distance and masking would help. Flushing the commode is a common concern in hospitals. When you smell odors, you are inhaling.

As far as Fauci, I primarily listened to the CDC. I got the first vaccine dose on 1/6/20.

That some didn’t fair well wearing masks or getting the vaccine is no shock! I’m trying to think of an appropriate analogy, some say change your oil q 5k miles. Some say wait longer. It costs me $75 with Mobil One 0w-20. That’s peanuts over the cost of an engine replacement.

We each do what we think is best. I have no regrets. I would do the same again. As always, YMMV.

dneal
July 18th, 2023, 06:39 PM
Fauci referred (again) to the DOJ for lying to Congress. I'm sure the AG will get right on that...

Chuck - is Fauci's denial that Wuhan was conducting gain of function (when he sent that email acknowledging it) something you see as intentionally misleading?

Note his email acknowledging that we know Wuhan conducts gain of function research is from February 2020, and the testimony (under oath) to the contrary was May 2021.

Fauci is a proven liar. I wonder what else he might have lied about?



78976


78977

TSherbs
July 23rd, 2023, 05:30 AM
An article on DeSantis, Florida, and covid deaths in today's NYT.

If anyone knows of a high-quality vetted (publication with editors) epidemiological review of US Covid data, I'd be interested in reading it. I won't read an entire book on it, but some major articles would be fine. Maybe it is still too soon because data is still coming in.

dneal
July 23rd, 2023, 09:04 AM
What sort of thing are you looking for? Covid deaths were over counted by 30% or so, the case fatality rate for every population under 70 or so was less than one percent, masks did nothing, 15,000 pages of Moderna trials were released (court ordered) - and it’s not pretty, ivermectin actually was a great prophylactic and treatment, myocarditis is more prevalent than previously asserted, etc…. Then there’s the problem with excess deaths, impact to child development and health, etc…

Basically everything the government and media told you was wrong - and they knew it.

TSherbs
July 23rd, 2023, 09:25 AM
Here is an interesting one, from the Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(23)00104-7/fulltext

the article has this title: Number needed to vaccinate with a COVID-19 booster to prevent a COVID-19-associated hospitalization during SARS-CoV-2 Omicron BA.1 variant predominance, December 2021–February 2022, VISION Network: a retrospective cohort study

It actually looked at both "hospitalizations" AND "emergency department" visits in its statistics. In other words, it looked at the correllations between vaccinations and hospital contact points (in-patient and emergency department). The study did not look at mortality correllations.

dneal
July 23rd, 2023, 09:45 AM
The Cleveland Clinic studied its employees by number of shots, variants, and time. More vaccination resulted in more cases.

https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/10/6/ofad209/7131292?login=false

79061

TSherbs
July 23rd, 2023, 03:15 PM
Here's another interesting article in Lancet about the cost-effectiveness of antithrombosis medicine for high-risk patients after discharge from the hospital: so this is both a look at results (comparison with control group) AND a look at a comparison of costs for the drug versus costs for medical care for the control group (study based in Brasil, tho, where costs are different from the US). Not that costs should be the biggest factor in treatment policies....

Lancet Brasil study (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(23)00117-5/fulltext)

TSherbs
July 23rd, 2023, 03:42 PM
This is a really interesting study (from Nature) about transmission rates inside the home (Costa Rica study) in relation to certain bahavioral patterns when one member of the household was infected (initially) with Covid (and the test group had only 10% vaccination rate). Some behaviors mattered, some did not. Interestingly, children under 12 in the home had the highest rates of infection (but not severe illness). Masking the sick person(s) and staying out of their bedrooms as much as possible for two weeks had the biggest dampening effects on transmission in the home. Masking the non-infected did not have much effect either way.

Anyway, interesting: https://www.nature.com/articles/s43856-023-00325-6

TSherbs
July 23rd, 2023, 03:54 PM
This isn't just about Covid, but three shots will be available this fall (if you're over 60, or under 2). <check> (the former)

dneal
July 23rd, 2023, 04:30 PM
Nature is the publication that spread Fauci’s lie about the lab leak being a conspiracy.

TSherbs
July 23rd, 2023, 05:53 PM
And from JAMA (the journal of the American Medical Association), this study:

Clinical and Demographic Factors Associated With COVID-19, Severe COVID-19, and SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Adults:
A Secondary Cross-Protocol Analysis of 4 Randomized Clinical Trials

https://JAMA Study (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2807188)

A meta study looking at the data from four other trial studies to look at possible correllations in the data. They found some interesting patterns in age, race, work environments, and prior infections (some of them break with patterns seen in other studies)

dneal
July 24th, 2023, 06:03 AM
Are you reading these? That last one was embarrassingly bad.

Essentially ‘we looked at other studies, applied a couple of different statistical models, and came up with a similar answer; but that may be due to our selection bias…’

The “key points” don’t even say anything specific. “Had the strongest associations with study outcomes.”? Which study? This one? The others?

Kudos for including nothing meaningful in the ’meaning’ portion.


Question What clinical and demographic factors are associated with rates of COVID-19, severe COVID-19, and SARS-CoV-2 infection?

Findings In this secondary analysis of 57 692 participants randomized to the placebo groups of 4 COVID-19 vaccine phase 3 efficacy trials, exposure risks, demographics (age and race), and evidence of previous infection had the strongest associations with study outcomes.

Meaning These findings could inform public health policy pertaining to prioritization for vaccination and risk mitigation efforts.

TSherbs
July 24th, 2023, 12:13 PM
Another summary website on Covid information: updated last month.

https://www.uptodate.com/contents/covid-19-epidemiology-virology-and-prevention#disclaimerContent

Chuck Naill
July 24th, 2023, 12:19 PM
I’ll get the influenza at the end of September and the Covid booster around Thanksgiving.

TSherbs
August 26th, 2023, 05:37 AM
The push and pull of when to release the next Covid boosters:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/expect-covid-booster-shot-eris-subvariant-spreads-rcna101597

dneal
August 26th, 2023, 06:12 AM
Biden says they're developing a vaccine "that works" this time.

Chuck Naill
August 26th, 2023, 07:17 AM
I can’t find where Biden made that statement. Can you provide a source?

724Seney
August 26th, 2023, 08:22 AM
I can’t find where Biden made that statement. Can you provide a source?

Read it and weep.
79750

dneal
August 26th, 2023, 10:39 AM
I can’t find where Biden made that statement. Can you provide a source?

That's because you're a victim of your media. At some point one would think this would occur to you, but you continue reading op-eds that you find comforting and reinforcing to your echochamber.

Thanks Seney, although Chuck will just say it's fake news because it's from Newsmax.

Here you go Chuck

PBS (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/president-joe-biden-says-he-will-request-more-funding-for-a-new-covid-19-vaccine)
ABC (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/president-joe-biden-request-funding-new-coronavirus-vaccine-102575899)

Let me know if you need more sources, or a class on how to use a search engine.

724Seney
August 26th, 2023, 10:48 AM
Thanks Seney, although Chuck will just say it's fake news because it's from Newsmax.

Yes, it is from Newsmax but a direct quote is a direct quote. His impediment is he does not recognize a "fact" when he sees one........... A planned sequela of his prior pharmaceutical industry employment brain wash.

Regardless, here it is from the Associated Press:
"I signed off this morning on a proposal we have to present to the Congress a request for additional funding for a new vaccine that is necessary, that works,” Biden, who is vacationing in the Lake Tahoe area, told reporters on Friday."
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california/articles/2023-08-25/president-joe-biden-says-he-will-request-more-funding-for-a-new-coronavirus-vaccine

Chuck Naill
August 26th, 2023, 11:15 AM
“Is necessary and works” (on the new strains)

Regardless, get a vaccine is the message.

dneal
August 26th, 2023, 11:32 AM
The old ones didn’t work, and the harms they caused are becoming blatantly obvious. Not everyone has Pfizer and Moderna stock as part of their retirement portfolio though…

79768

dneal
August 26th, 2023, 02:32 PM
“Is necessary and works” (on the new strains)

Regardless, get a vaccine is the message.

https://x.com/senronjohnson/status/1695481222212747425?s=61

“That works”

Listen to his own words, on a CSPAN video.

dneal
August 26th, 2023, 02:33 PM
79769

Chuck Naill
August 26th, 2023, 03:38 PM
“Is necessary and works” (on the new strains)

Regardless, get a vaccine is the message.

https://x.com/senronjohnson/status/1695481222212747425?s=61

“That works”

Listen to his own words, on a CSPAN video.

That works on new strains.

Chuck Naill
August 26th, 2023, 03:56 PM
Those are dated quotes and prior to mutations. No one knows how the variants are going to change the face of this healthcare outcome. I do not think people should trust YouTube when exploring their options.

dneal
August 26th, 2023, 04:21 PM
Albert Bourla, Pfizer CEO: “There is no variant that escapes the protection of our vaccines.”

Dated quote, because he was wrong…

Chuck Naill
August 27th, 2023, 06:42 AM
At the time the known variants were known to be susceptible to the vaccine. You are showing you do not understand that viral and bacterial mutation occurs. A virus either dies or develops resistance by rewriting how the cells respond. Plus, medical experts are continuing to understand the virus and its variants. Your posts appear to say that you think they should have known in advance. A particular strain of the influenza virus is chosen each year to determine how to construct the vaccine people choose to have administered. The influenza virus begins each year in Southeast Asia and spreads until it dies out.

dneal
August 27th, 2023, 07:33 AM
Cognitive dissonance

Chuck Naill
August 27th, 2023, 09:05 AM
Delusional and self-absorbed

TSherbs
August 27th, 2023, 10:03 AM
A WaPo editorial on the early Chinese government-controlled responses to the COVID outbreak info in late 2019 to early 2020, in narative form, in its entirety:



www.washingtonpost.comwashingtonpost.com
Opinion In Wuhan, doctors knew the truth. They were told to keep quiet.
By Editorial Board|Aug. 22nd, 2023

In the first weeks of 2020, a radiologist at Xinhua Hospital in Wuhan, China, saw looming signs of trouble. He was a native of Wuhan and had 29 years of radiology experience. His job was to take computed tomography (CT) scans, looking at patients’ lungs for signs of infection.

And infections were everywhere. “I have never seen a virus that spreads so quickly,” he told a reporter for the investigative magazine Caixin. “This growth rate is too fast, and it is too scary.”

“The CT machines in the hospital were overloaded every day,” he added. “The machines are exhausted and often crash.”

But this tableau of chaos was hidden from the Chinese people — and the world — in early 2020. Chinese authorities had acknowledged on Dec. 31, 2019, that there were 27 cases of “pneumonia of unknown origin,” and 44 confirmed cases on Jan. 3, 2020. The Wuhan health commission reported 59 cases on Jan. 5, then abruptly reduced the number to 41 on Jan. 11, and claimed there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission or any signs of doctors getting sick.

That claim was a lie. The coronavirus was running rampant. Doctors at the radiologist’s hospital, and other hospitals, were getting sick. But China’s Communist Party leaders prize social stability above all else. They fear any sign of public panic or admission that the ruling party-state is not in control. The authorities in both Wuhan and Beijing kept the situation secret, especially because annual party political meetings were being held in Wuhan, the capital of Hubei province, from Jan. 6 to Jan. 17.

Secrecy has long been a major tool of the governing Communist Party. It suppresses independent journalism, censors digital news and communications, and withholds vital information from its people. Doctors in Wuhan who knew the truth were afraid to speak out. China did not reveal human transmission of the virus until Jan. 22, and by then, the pandemic had been ignited. In 3½ years, covid-19 has taken nearly 7 million lives by official counts. The true death toll is probably twice or three times that number.

This editorial is part of a series examining the inner workings of authoritarianism around the world. Previously, we looked at how dictatorships exploit social media, at the creation of disinformation and at how autocrats share tactics. This installment examines how China’s authoritarian system handled a grave public health crisis, as seen through the eyes of doctors and other health-care professionals on the front lines who were struggling to cope with a virus no one had witnessed before. At a time when trust and transparency were needed to save lives, Chinese authorities covered up the facts and lied — and they continue to do so today.

In Wuhan, the radiologist realized the virus was jumping from person to person. On Jan. 16, he spoke privately about it with a colleague, expressing concern the disease was exploding. The colleague, in tears, replied, “Wuhan will go down in history as a result.”

In any battle against disease, the rapid flow of information is essential. China learned this the hard way in the 2003 SARS outbreak, when state secrecy hobbled the response as 8,098 people became ill and 774 died in China and elsewhere. After that, China set up a digital system for reporting a spreading disease. The core is the National Notifiable Disease Reporting System (NNDRS), which provides online reporting of cases. Covering the entire country, it allows for an entry to be accessible at all levels, from local hospitals to the Chinese Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Beijing. Chinese officials boasted that the new system was “horizontal to the edge, vertical to the bottom,” that it would report on detected sickness within hours.

The NNDRS was largely designed to report on known diseases with an early-warning component. In particular, China was on the lookout for dangerous respiratory contagions like the first SARS, which were given a special category — PUE, for “pneumonia of unknown etiology,” or unknown origin. The CDC monitors the NNDRS reports daily. If more than five cases of PUE are found in one location, the CDC is supposed to send a special team to investigate. But by some accounts, the PUE system was plagued with false positives — cases that turned out to be something else. And for the reporting to happen, a doctor or dedicated hospital staff must fill out an electronic “report card”; a phone call or other method doesn’t suffice.

This internal reporting is separate from what the public is told. Public disclosure is controlled by the party. This power lies with health commissions at the local, provincial and national levels, and ultimately with the State Council, China’s highest-ranking body. Every major institution in China, including its hospitals, has a party overseer. In the health-care realm, China’s CDC has standing only to offer advice about an issue, not to decide what measures to take in response.

In January 2020, the system failed as the virus spread. This can be gleaned from documents and interviews conducted by Chinese journalists. They managed to capture a revelatory picture of the struggle by doctors and hospitals despite China’s strict limits on news reporting and its system of censorship. Gilles Demaneuf of the research group DRASTIC, which has been probing the origins of the virus, has compiled and translated these materials in a 193-page report he has shared with the World Health Organization’s Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens. The report was made available to us. The findings are augmented by disclosures from U.S. Right to Know, a freedom-of-information group, and news accounts and congressional investigations in the United States.

In editorials last year, we called attention to how the virus was spreading in November and December 2019, earlier than China has admitted; how China had carried out genomic sequencing of the virus in late December 2019; and we pointed to additional cases that were not reported to a joint mission of China and the WHO. It is still not known precisely how or where the pandemic began, whether from zoonotic spillover or a laboratory leak. But by the end of December 2019, the growing caseload set off alarms in Wuhan. The genomic sequencing showed the virus was closely related to the first SARS virus, which had set off panic in China almost 20 years earlier.

China’s small clinics are often the first stop when people get sick. For additional treatment, patients proceed up a ladder of tertiary, secondary and primary hospitals. One of those at the top was Wuhan Central Hospital, a large-scale municipal facility, providing complex health care and advanced medical training and research. It has a main campus near the river on Nanjing Road and a secondary branch, known as Houhu, near the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, a huge bazaar selling seafood as well as farmed wildlife — alive and frozen — that became a superspreader venue for the new virus. Wuhan Central was a sentinel hospital for China’s CDC — to be on the lookout for infectious-disease outbreaks in central China.

Both branches had started to receive patients with the new illness, and by Dec. 30, 2019, seven patients were at the Houhu branch. Several had links to the market. Other hospitals started to see patients with coughing and other virus symptoms, too.

That afternoon, at 3:10 p.m., the Wuhan health commission — the political level — issued an “urgent notice” to health institutions to look out for PUE cases. Another notice followed at 6:50 p.m., warning “not to disclose information to the public without authorization.”

At Wuhan Central that evening, ophthalmologist Li Wenliang examined the medical report of a patient whose condition seemed strikingly like SARS. He shared it with his former medical school friends in their class WeChat group, so they could be prepared. “Seven cases of SARS confirmed,” he wrote. On Jan. 1, Li was detained by police, along with seven other doctors. He was accused of “making untrue comments” that had “severely disturbed the social order.” He was reprimanded for “this illegal activity” and signed a paper promising not to do it again.

Separately, Ai Fen, head of Wuhan Central’s emergency department, grew concerned about the infections. She alerted the hospital management that one of the patients ran a small clinic near the market and had treated many people from there, strongly suggesting human-to-human transmission was underway. She asked her staff to begin wearing N95 masks. This set off fresh alarms. The staff realized it meant transmission was underway and the virus could threaten them as well as everyone else.

On Jan. 2, she was reprimanded by Cai Li, the party boss at the hospital, who accused her of spreading rumors. The emergency department head said she was told not to send any text or WeChat messages about the virus, but to communicate about it only face-to-face with other doctors. Similar orders went out to other doctors at Wuhan Central. The masks became an urgent issue. In response to protests, hospital leaders allowed doctors in three departments — emergency, respiratory and ICU — to wear masks but ordered those in other departments, including gynecology, urology, cardiology, ophthalmology and ultrasound, not to. Many of these doctors went unprotected — and got infected.

Also on Jan. 2, a memo went out at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a major research center on coronaviruses. Employees were warned that “all testing and experimental data, results, and conclusions related to the epidemic should not be published on blogs and social media, and should not be shared with the media (including official media), or partner organizations.”

According to the radiologist at Xinhua Hospital, the reprimand to Li and the other doctors “really shocked us.” He added, “This incident played a great role in the gagging of the medical community. … Most of us dare not speak out publicly for fear of being summoned by the police.”

But he saw the reality at Xinhua Hospital, which was formally named Hubei Provincial Hospital of Integrated Traditional Chinese and Western Medicine. He recalled that starting on Jan. 5, he saw two or three images indicating infections, then more each day. Then “suddenly it showed a multiple fold increase” to 30 a day and kept doubling. By Jan. 11, he said, “medical staff in the unit were infected one after another.” The government had still not acknowledged human-to-human transmission, or health-care workers getting sick, but the virus was everywhere. “The hospital was full of people, and the situation was a bit chaotic,” the radiologist said.

“Our hospital’s outpatient clinic is crowded with a large number of suspected patients who can’t be admitted,” he said. “Some patients kneel down and beg the doctor to take them in.”

The public was given only a skimpy version of the facts. Days went by with no announcement of any new cases and no warnings. In Wuhan, crowds bustled at a mass banquet, and millions began to travel at the opening of the Lunar New Year celebrations.

But the highest levels of China’s government knew the truth. According to a key memo obtained by the Associated Press, on Jan. 14, the head of the National Health Commission admitted to provincial officials in a teleconference that the situation was “severe and complex, the most severe challenge since SARS in 2003.”

When it was needed most, China’s disease reporting system collapsed. In part, this was because of confusion and administrative bungling. Patients who showed up at small local clinics in the first weeks were sent home or to second-tier hospitals, and these cases most likely never generated the “report card” necessary for registering in the system. Also, the high costs of hospitalization in a top-ranked facility might have discouraged many sick people from going there. Moreover, many front-line doctors had not used the disease reporting system or were wary of reporting an infection of an unknown nature. Top authorities issued conflicting criteria for what defined a new case — at first, the patient had to be linked to the Huanan market, but after many people who had not been to the market became ill, that requirement was dropped.

And there was one other major factor: In the first weeks of January 2020, high-level officials made a deliberate effort to slow-walk the reporting of cases.

The admonition not to write anything down — and to pass reports only verbally — immediately thwarted the NNDRS system, which accepted only written, electronic “report cards” that could be filed only by a doctor or other select staff in the hospital, such as the public health department. As one worker in the emergency department of Wuhan Central put it, “There is no written report, it cannot be reported, and what you say doesn’t count.”

According to the radiologist at Xinhua Hospital, authorities also limited the number of virus samples tested in Wuhan. The quantity of tests was small and the quality poor; China had neither the means nor intention at this point to test broadly. This left many people stuck in limbo as “suspected” cases, or sent home to recover, rather than be admitted to hospitals. If they died, they were kept off lists of confirmed cases. Authorities also decided on Jan. 11 that records of CT scans were not to be given directly to medical staff, who would be informed only verbally of the results. This was to conceal the infections among medical staff, which the government had claimed were not occurring.

Repeatedly in hospitals, doctors were told to be “careful” and “cautious” about filing a report card for a new case. A day-to-day chronology of events at Wuhan Central from Dec. 29 to Feb. 8 was prepared by a public health doctor there. The document was obtained by Caixin and another Chinese publication, the Paper. Both said they confirmed its authenticity. The document shows a pattern of slow-walking the reporting.

The initial seven patients at Wuhan Central had been reported only by telephone, and the public health doctor was eager to file the electronic report cards. But he was instructed by political officials and higher-ups to wait. Although the cases were in the hospital in late December, they were not entered into the system until Jan. 8, according to the chronology.

On Jan. 11, the Wuhan health commission revised the total cases downward to 41, based on the first PCR tests, and declared — yet again — that “no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission” had been found.

On Jan. 12, the public health doctor at Wuhan Central got more instructions from above: Any report card of new infection must be “cautiously” reported. On Jan. 13, a meeting was held at the hospital, and the doctors and public health officials were warned that cases of infection could be reported only with the consent of the city and provincial health commissions — the political level. These layers of approval only clogged the system more. “On Jan. 16,” the public health doctor wrote, “I asked the surrounding hospitals about the recent report card entries and learned that they had not reported any card recently.” But, he added, the virus was ravaging the city, and asymptomatic infection had appeared. Other front-line doctors estimated that there were tens of thousands of cases by Jan. 21.

“In mid-January, everyone was covering their eyes,” a doctor from Wuhan Central told Caixin. “From the province to the city to the hospital: the province did not allow the city to report, the city did not allow the hospital to report, and the hospital did not allow the hospital department to report. It was just covered up layer by layer, causing the golden period of prevention and control to be missed again and again.”

The radiologist saw the gap between the government statements and reality. On Jan. 18 at his hospital, there were 86 cases. “After that, there were more than 100 cases every day.”

If he had known a pandemic was coming, he said later, he would have taken the risk and warned the public. At the time, “I was weak and chose to remain silent.” He posted a personal message on the microblogging app Weibo, urging elderly people to wear masks, but he had few followers, and “no one heard it.”

Doctors in Wuhan bore an especially heavy burden. Four of them at Wuhan Central Hospital later died of covid, including Li, the ophthalmologist who was reprimanded.

Public health — the management of the well-being of a whole population — presents a special test of governance. A vital part of protecting people is communicating clearly what is happening, persuading them to modify their behavior to avert illness and death, and building trust over time. Failure in any of these tasks can lead to far greater suffering.

The United States and other open societies struggled with political polarization, fragmentation and disinformation during the pandemic. Misinformation and untruths spread fast, often outpacing sound public health counsel. Many unnecessary deaths resulted.

But while democracies are swamped with information as well as disinformation, China’s dictatorship bottled up the truths and published lies. The party’s quest for absolute control — through fear, threats and intimidation — blocked action precisely when the virus spread might have been slowed or stopped. The decisions allowed a spark to become a wildfire, a disaster of immense proportions. As the pandemic unfolded, China remained a black box. It slammed the door on any further investigation of the origins of the virus inside China and did not publish accurate data on the pandemic death toll; doing so might have called into question the party’s competence and leadership. When Zhejiang province recently published mortality data indicating a surge of deaths after China abruptly lifted its “zero covid” policy in December 2022, indicating a higher death toll than China had acknowledged, the data was promptly deleted.

Edward Holmes, an evolutionary biologist and virologist who is a professor at the University of Sydney, exchanged messages on Slack with other virologists in March 2020, as the pandemic gained strength. Holmes, who has extensive China experience, wrote of China: “There is so much repression and deceit, it is ridiculous.” He added that the true number of cases was probably much higher than reported and said, “I’ve also heard that some of the hospitals in Wuhan are declining to test because they want to report low/no numbers.”

Dr. Holmes noted the statements that the virus would not transmit between people, and added, “Endless coverups.”

What happened in Wuhan was not a single slip-up or misjudgment. It was a result of how the system works, demanding fealty and imposing control in all directions. It was a deliberate choice to order doctors not to wear masks that could have saved lives; to slow-walk the reporting and thus impede early warning; to shut down communications with the public; and to instruct doctors not to write anything down about the spreading danger. The consequence was death and misery for the Chinese people and the rest of the world on an unimaginable scale.

Chuck Naill
August 28th, 2023, 07:53 AM
Time to stock up on masks again.

dneal
August 28th, 2023, 09:26 AM
Rosary beads are just as effective, and less harmful.

But you would have to investigate outside of the legacy media to know that. They, like Chuck, are never going to admit their error.

Chuck Naill
August 28th, 2023, 11:12 AM
If I were hiding behind my desk all day I wouldn't wear one either. That is just not how I want to live, @dneal.

dneal
August 28th, 2023, 12:07 PM
Who's hiding behind a desk? Now you're stealing Chip's schtick.

Pitiful.

In other news, Kaiser Permanente and Lionsgate studios reversed their mask mandates because of pushback.

Everyone knows this latest covid scare is a ruse so Joe can campaign from his basement again, and the other stuff Trump's lawyers will point out in the Georgia case.

Even this lady knows what's up. If you disagree, you're a racist and misogynist.

*caution* some spicy language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOPt0DCP6ks

Chuck Naill
August 28th, 2023, 03:51 PM
We all know you hide behind your desk and Google your responses. Don't ask for an ICU bed...LOL!! That really got your goat.

dneal
August 28th, 2023, 03:57 PM
That’s all you have?

Even more pitiful.

Chuck Naill
August 28th, 2023, 03:58 PM
I've searched on your posts and discovered the source several times.

dneal
August 28th, 2023, 05:37 PM
Really? I’m curious what you think “my source” is.

karmachanic
August 29th, 2023, 03:28 AM
Rosary beads are just as effective, and less harmful.

Garlic necklace.

Chuck Naill
August 29th, 2023, 01:22 PM
For those that use masks when spraying paint or ear protection when operating machinery, it is time to get a supply of masks to protect against breathing aerosolized viruses. This does not apply to hermits or those hiding behind their desks.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/29/well/live/covid-masks-guidance.html

dneal
August 29th, 2023, 01:42 PM
CDC admits you’re at greater risk if you’re vaccinated.

Curious.

Chuck Naill
August 29th, 2023, 02:27 PM
Maybe they were saying that since vaccinated people aren't hiding behind their desks, being out enjoying life, they may get infected...LOL!! :crazy:

Actually, you've been found out for posting another Covid conspiracy, @dneal. A simple search found you out as the purveyor of misinformation that you have come to represent. :bolt:
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-covid-variant-vaccinated-unvaccinated-cdc-895117372555

dneal
August 29th, 2023, 02:30 PM
Maybe they couldn’t dismiss the Cleveland Clinic study that showed more vaccines = more infection.

Damn those conspiratorial research hospitals…

-edit-

You still believe “fact checks”

https://www.cdc.gov/respiratory-viruses/whats-new/covid-19-variant.html

79840

Oh, they said “may”. Surely they don’t imply anything to get you to line Pfizer’s (and Fauci’s) pockets a little more.

What’s really funny is how they say the updated vaccine will reduce severe disease and hospitalization. You’ll fall for that again, because you’re a true believer in the cult of covid.

Chuck Naill
August 29th, 2023, 03:31 PM
Please stay behind the desk and if you do happen to get sick, please don't take up space in the ICU. Save it for the aged and immunocompromised.

dneal
August 29th, 2023, 04:26 PM
Please find some new material, and find a real mentor to teach you about Christian belief. Jesus wouldn't wish harm on others. You? well, you've already answered that.

There's time for you yet. Repent!

Chuck Naill
August 29th, 2023, 04:38 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/data-review/vaccines.html

Chuck Naill
August 29th, 2023, 04:42 PM
The protective nature of the vaccine was seen across all age groups. No need for me to change anything.

724Seney
August 29th, 2023, 04:48 PM
The protective nature of the vaccine was seen across all age groups. No need for me to change anything.

Ah, the old fake left and go right!
#loser

dneal
August 29th, 2023, 05:44 PM
The protective nature of the vaccine was seen across all age groups. No need for me to change anything.

Ah, the old fake left and go right!
#loser

Not quite. Just more circling back to the previous debunked talking points.

Since Chuck’s memory doesn’t carry over from previous pages, here are the previous talking points. Then he’ll post some nonsense about mutations, I’ll point out Albert Bourla’s statement, and the irrelevant nonsense will make it’s way to his posts again.

Sitting on the fence poking with the prod, as he runs around the pen…

79841

724Seney
August 29th, 2023, 06:14 PM
The protective nature of the vaccine was seen across all age groups. No need for me to change anything.

Ah, the old fake left and go right!
#loser

Not quite. Just more circling back to the previous debunked talking points.

Since Chuck’s memory doesn’t carry over from previous pages, here are the previous talking points. Then he’ll post some nonsense about mutations, I’ll point out Albert Bourla’s statement, and the irrelevant nonsense will make it’s way to his posts again.

Sitting on the fence poking with the prod, as he runs around the pen…

79841

Wait?
What?
Chuck has a memory??

Chuck Naill
August 30th, 2023, 06:46 AM
There is an uptick in cases. If this is the newest variant, the vaccines will protect in the sense of a mild cold like symptoms. Older adults and those with compromised immune systems will be helped most by getting the newest version. I wouldn't be surprised if my mild cough isn't Covid. No fever or headache.

BTW, @dneal, what you posted from the CDC, recommended people get the vaccines. Nothing has changed. Come on out from behind your desk. Bring Seny with you. :grouphug:

dneal
August 30th, 2023, 07:57 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

724Seney
August 30th, 2023, 07:58 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

Amen brother! Totally spot on!!

Chuck Naill
August 30th, 2023, 08:09 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

Whatabuthism as usual. No one is suggesting going without vaccines and distancing. Another it’s what rational adults do.

Masks are used daily by people wanting to protect their lungs. Ear protection is used as well. Safety eye protection is essential. You have to be suffering from anal crainial inversion syndrome (ACI) to make mask avoidance an issue .

Chuck Naill
August 30th, 2023, 08:10 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

Amen brother! Totally spot on!!

You wouldn’t know spot on if it jumped up and slapped you in the face….lol! That video you posted says it all! 😂😂

dneal
August 30th, 2023, 08:28 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

Whatabuthism as usual. No one is suggesting going without vaccines and distancing. Another it’s what rational adults do.

Masks are used daily by people wanting to protect their lungs. Ear protection is used as well. Safety eye protection is essential. You have to be suffering from anal crainial inversion syndrome (ACI) to make mask avoidance an issue .

You think your “whataboutism” comment is about my post, but it ironically involves yours.

Your cognitive dissonance is astounding.

724Seney
August 30th, 2023, 08:29 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

Amen brother! Totally spot on!!

You wouldn’t know spot on if it jumped up and slapped you in the face….lol! That video you posted says it all! ����

Yes, of course. Actual video & voice footage of people & their words simply HAS to be fake news.
Go back to your cave and do all the brain dead things that you've been so well trained to do. Your idiot claims are adding nothing here.

Chuck Naill
August 30th, 2023, 09:25 AM
More and more people on other forums, mostly older adults, are posting they are recovering from Covid. Most have residual symptoms, but perhaps not long Covid. They talk about loss of energy and want to know when it will end. One recent post was on a bicycle forum where I am a member.

Prudent behavior would be to take the advice of the medical community even if you don't fully trust them. Use multiple sources and make the best decision possible to prevent long term symptoms.

Chuck Naill
August 30th, 2023, 09:27 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

Amen brother! Totally spot on!!

You wouldn’t know spot on if it jumped up and slapped you in the face….lol! That video you posted says it all! ����

Yes, of course. Actual video & voice footage of people & their words simply HAS to be fake news.
Go back to your cave and do all the brain dead things that you've been so well trained to do. Your idiot claims are adding nothing here.

Bless you heart. Are you that dense to think that video is news worthy? It's in the genre of propaganda. It is lazy to just listen or read what you want to hear. However, I know it will take an awful experience to change your mind, and then it might be too late.

724Seney
August 30th, 2023, 09:39 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

Amen brother! Totally spot on!!

You wouldn’t know spot on if it jumped up and slapped you in the face….lol! That video you posted says it all! ����

Yes, of course. Actual video & voice footage of people & their words simply HAS to be fake news.
Go back to your cave and do all the brain dead things that you've been so well trained to do. Your idiot claims are adding nothing here.

Bless you heart. Are you that dense to think that video is news worthy? It's in the genre of propaganda. It is lazy to just listen or read what you want to hear. However, I know it will take an awful experience to change your mind, and then it might be too late.

Fine Chuck, troll on.
Even you are not this stupid.

Chuck Naill
August 30th, 2023, 11:05 AM
You (like Fauci and the CDC) profit from pharma. I’ll listen to the credible experts who have been consistently correct instead of the slanderous shills.

Just a reminder. Pfizer paid the biggest fine in history ($2.3B) in 2009 for "bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results".

I'm sure they would never do that again...

Amen brother! Totally spot on!!

You wouldn’t know spot on if it jumped up and slapped you in the face….lol! That video you posted says it all! ����

Yes, of course. Actual video & voice footage of people & their words simply HAS to be fake news.
Go back to your cave and do all the brain dead things that you've been so well trained to do. Your idiot claims are adding nothing here.

Bless you heart. Are you that dense to think that video is news worthy? It's in the genre of propaganda. It is lazy to just listen or read what you want to hear. However, I know it will take an awful experience to change your mind, and then it might be too late.

Fine Chuck, troll on.
Even you are not this stupid.

After you baiting and trolling poor @calamus you're calling me a troll......LOL!!! Thanks, as always, for the joviality. :focus:

Chuck Naill
September 4th, 2023, 10:07 AM
Covid variant update

https://www.cdc.gov/respiratory-viruses/whats-new/covid-19-variant.html

dneal
September 8th, 2023, 08:15 PM
The government of South Africa released it's contract with Pfizer for the covid vaccine.

https://healthjusticeinitiative.org.za/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/OCRPfizer-1_Redacted.pdf

Curiously, Pfizer had no problem declaring through the media that their vaccine was "safe and effective". However, they didn't use that terminology when entering into a binding contract. Instead, they said:

"Purchaser acknowledges and agrees that (i) Pfizer's efforts to develop and manufacture the Product are aspirational in nature and subject to significant risks and uncertainties"

Aspirational in nature? What would they be aspiring to? Effectiveness perhaps?

Subject to significant risks and uncertanties? What kind of risks and uncertainties. Didn't Albert Bourla, CEO of Pfizer, tell us the vaccines were safe?

Chuck Naill
September 9th, 2023, 06:28 AM
I remember promoting a drug for RA which had a black box warning and a pregnancy category requiring reliable contraception. We provided a form for which the female patient signed before accepting the therapy.

Risks and uncertainties are always a part of what anyone should consider. Doing nothing also has its risks and uncertainties. Going out of doors has risks and uncertainties. Staying indoor behind your desk alone has risks and uncertainties.

724Seney
September 9th, 2023, 08:10 AM
I remember promoting a drug for RA which had a black box warning and a pregnancy category requiring reliable contraception. We provided a form for which the female patient signed before accepting the therapy.

Risks and uncertainties are always a part of what anyone should consider. Doing nothing also has its risks and uncertainties. Going out of doors has risks and uncertainties. Staying indoor behind your desk alone has risks and uncertainties.

That's all fine Chuck.
But "full disclosure" is both a moral and ethical obligation.
Your profession has a well documented of ignoring this obligation.

If you or any of the other two Stooge brothers want to jump all up and down my ying-yang (again) for making this claim, I'd be glad to repost all of the water tight documentation I have posted in the past. It's a fact.

The point is that, yes, accepting risks and uncertainties is expected but so is the ability to make said decision with full knowledge of the pertinent facts necessary to make that decision.
Pfizer did not meet this standard. Again.

dneal
September 9th, 2023, 10:02 AM
Myocarditis and cancer seem to be two risks and uncertainties discovered from injecting an ‘aspirational’ Product.

For a respiratory virus that has a 99% survival rate in most populations. Who said the mortality rates were 3.4%? Who was publicly lambasted for disagreeing?

It is difficult to assess risk when parties obfuscate truth for financial and/or political gain.

Some could see through the charade, and some couldn’t. Some, as evidenced here, still can’t.

Chuck Naill
September 9th, 2023, 10:13 AM
Full disclosure is mandatory by the FDA. The package insert is considered a legal document. The drug rep is bound by that document. If they ignore it, they do so at their own misfortune.

Why would anyone want to rehash what you’ve previously posted and have already responded. No person with the knowledge and responsibility for the well being of Americans agree with you.

Americans who are doing well are those who listened and tried to follow the evidence as best as they could at a complicated time.

Those that suffered most are those that listened to YouTube and made the pandemic political. It sounded irrational and irresponsible then. So, don’t force us to address it again.

724Seney
September 9th, 2023, 10:21 AM
Full disclosure is mandatory by the FDA. The package insert is considered a legal document. The drug rep is bound by that document. If they ignore it, they do so at their own misfortune.

Why would anyone want to rehash what you’ve previously posted and have already responded. No person with the knowledge and responsibility for the well being of Americans agree with you.

Americans who are doing well are those who listened and tried to follow the evidence as best as they could at a complicated time.

Those that suffered most are those that listened to YouTube and made the pandemic political. It sounded irrational and irresponsible then. So, don’t force us to address it again.

Chuck. This entire statement is about as full of bull droppings as is anything you have ever posted.
You are a hopeless, lost lemming.

TSherbs
September 9th, 2023, 10:57 AM
I just received another notice from my doctor to hold off a little while longer before getting my next Covid shot. I am going to follow that suggestion.

Chuck Naill
September 9th, 2023, 11:17 AM
Full disclosure is mandatory by the FDA. The package insert is considered a legal document. The drug rep is bound by that document. If they ignore it, they do so at their own misfortune.

Why would anyone want to rehash what you’ve previously posted and have already responded. No person with the knowledge and responsibility for the well being of Americans agree with you.

Americans who are doing well are those who listened and tried to follow the evidence as best as they could at a complicated time.

Those that suffered most are those that listened to YouTube and made the pandemic political. It sounded irrational and irresponsible then. So, don’t force us to address it again.

Chuck. This entire statement is about as full of bull droppings as is anything you have ever posted.
You are a hopeless, lost lemming.

You wouldn’t know bull droppings from good apple butter, Seny.

Chuck Naill
September 9th, 2023, 11:20 AM
I just received another notice from my doctor to hold off a little while longer before getting my next Covid shot. I am going to follow that suggestion.

Supposed to be available at the end of the month. I take the Moderna vaccine.

724Seney
September 9th, 2023, 12:02 PM
Full disclosure is mandatory by the FDA. The package insert is considered a legal document. The drug rep is bound by that document. If they ignore it, they do so at their own misfortune.

Why would anyone want to rehash what you’ve previously posted and have already responded. No person with the knowledge and responsibility for the well being of Americans agree with you.

Americans who are doing well are those who listened and tried to follow the evidence as best as they could at a complicated time.

Those that suffered most are those that listened to YouTube and made the pandemic political. It sounded irrational and irresponsible then. So, don’t force us to address it again.

Chuck. This entire statement is about as full of bull droppings as is anything you have ever posted.
You are a hopeless, lost lemming.

You wouldn’t know bull droppings from good apple butter, Seny.

Maybe so.....
But you wouldn't know good apple butter from bull droppings.
And, maybe that's why you're so full of them.
Yum, huh Chuck??

TSherbs
September 9th, 2023, 12:12 PM
Another ruling on Biden Admin and social media influence:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/08/politics/biden-administration-social-media-lawsuit/index.html

Chuck Naill
September 9th, 2023, 12:54 PM
Full disclosure is mandatory by the FDA. The package insert is considered a legal document. The drug rep is bound by that document. If they ignore it, they do so at their own misfortune.

Why would anyone want to rehash what you’ve previously posted and have already responded. No person with the knowledge and responsibility for the well being of Americans agree with you.

Americans who are doing well are those who listened and tried to follow the evidence as best as they could at a complicated time.

Those that suffered most are those that listened to YouTube and made the pandemic political. It sounded irrational and irresponsible then. So, don’t force us to address it again.

Chuck. This entire statement is about as full of bull droppings as is anything you have ever posted.
You are a hopeless, lost lemming.

You wouldn’t know bull droppings from good apple butter, Seny.

Maybe so.....
But you wouldn't know good apple butter from bull droppings.
And, maybe that's why you're so full of them.
Yum, huh Chuck??

You and @dneal are fun to spare with for a season, but it usually becomes rather boring.

724Seney
September 9th, 2023, 01:03 PM
Full disclosure is mandatory by the FDA. The package insert is considered a legal document. The drug rep is bound by that document. If they ignore it, they do so at their own misfortune.

Why would anyone want to rehash what you’ve previously posted and have already responded. No person with the knowledge and responsibility for the well being of Americans agree with you.

Americans who are doing well are those who listened and tried to follow the evidence as best as they could at a complicated time.

Those that suffered most are those that listened to YouTube and made the pandemic political. It sounded irrational and irresponsible then. So, don’t force us to address it again.

Chuck. This entire statement is about as full of bull droppings as is anything you have ever posted.
You are a hopeless, lost lemming.

You wouldn’t know bull droppings from good apple butter, Seny.

Maybe so.....
But you wouldn't know good apple butter from bull droppings.
And, maybe that's why you're so full of them.
Yum, huh Chuck??

You and @dneal are fun to spare with for a season, but it usually becomes rather boring.

Fine.
Then "spare" (learn to spell, moron) us.
Just go do something else.
For example, you might enjoy watching some paint dry...........
Or take a 4th grade class in spelling.

Chuck Naill
September 9th, 2023, 01:30 PM
Full disclosure is mandatory by the FDA. The package insert is considered a legal document. The drug rep is bound by that document. If they ignore it, they do so at their own misfortune.

Why would anyone want to rehash what you’ve previously posted and have already responded. No person with the knowledge and responsibility for the well being of Americans agree with you.

Americans who are doing well are those who listened and tried to follow the evidence as best as they could at a complicated time.

Those that suffered most are those that listened to YouTube and made the pandemic political. It sounded irrational and irresponsible then. So, don’t force us to address it again.

Chuck. This entire statement is about as full of bull droppings as is anything you have ever posted.
You are a hopeless, lost lemming.

You wouldn’t know bull droppings from good apple butter, Seny.

Maybe so.....
But you wouldn't know good apple butter from bull droppings.
And, maybe that's why you're so full of them.
Yum, huh Chuck??

You and @dneal are fun to spare with for a season, but it usually becomes rather boring.

Fine.
Then "spare" (learn to spell, moron) us.
Just go do something else.
For example, you might enjoy watching some paint dry...........
Or take a 4th grade class in spelling.

I’m reading and using the phone to reply, Seny.

What is @dneal compelling you to post in rely?

dneal
September 9th, 2023, 08:17 PM
You and @dneal are fun to spare with for a season, but it usually becomes rather boring.

For a guy who likes to say folks should have original thoughts, you sure plagiarize a lot.

Chuck Naill
September 10th, 2023, 06:09 AM
Anyone considering the RSV vaccine?