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Bold2013
October 11th, 2021, 09:42 PM
We have lost another sport. Cancel culture is in full swing in the National Football League.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32384058/jon-gruden-resigns-las-vegas-raiders-head-coach

Well at least we have books… until they start burning them again…

Chuck Naill
October 12th, 2021, 06:51 AM
We have lost another sport. Cancel culture is in full swing in the National Football League.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32384058/jon-gruden-resigns-las-vegas-raiders-head-coach

Well at least we have books… until they start burning them again…

I agree. Powerful and well paid men (especially if they are white) should be exempt to say and do whatever the hell they want to do to whom ever they choose with absolutely no repercussions. What's the world coming to? :crazy:

That said, even though I was white and male, I was told early in my career with a rather large German company to never put an email out there or record a voice mail that I wouldn't want to show up on the front page of the New York Times. That was in the 1980's, so perhap the counter culture is older than you think.

Chuck Naill
October 12th, 2021, 10:11 AM
Weren’t you the one who said, “ So we live peacefully in our system with one another unless it is at odds with the King of Kings.” And wished a member a “blessed day”? Is there a little cognitive dissonance going on? Lol! 😂😂

fountainpenkid
October 12th, 2021, 10:27 AM
What a profoundly uninformed and dumb opinion. He voluntarily resigned.
For me--a wimpy gay homosexual fairie faggot who has always been confused and annoyed by the game--it validated a lot of my suspicions about many of the people involved. There's another profoundly uninformed and dumb opinion to follow the trend!

Chuck Naill
October 12th, 2021, 11:39 AM
Apparently many of you are young ones.
“I’ll tell you what coloreds want. It’s three things: first, a tight pussy; second, loose shoes; and third, a warm place to shit. That's all!”
Earl Butz

Chuck Naill
October 12th, 2021, 11:44 AM
What this thread and the OP reveal is the common existence today of religious people who quote the Bible, yet fail to follow the clear teachings of treating others as you would have them treat you.

Perhaps the problem is that some gatherings are more entertaining that informative. How else could Paul White and Franklin Graham endorse those who are as foreign to Jesus as one could be.

Don’t tithe, it was a mid 1800’s construct.

How to handle such ignorance is beyond me.

kazoolaw
October 12th, 2021, 01:19 PM
Yikes!!

TSherbs
October 12th, 2021, 02:00 PM
Bold2013, if it makes you feel any better, I'm sure that racism is still alive and well in the NFL. Gruden's comments (racist and homophobic and misogynist) are simply another indication that the pernicious attitudes still swim strong under the surface (mostly under) of the water.

Chuck Naill
October 12th, 2021, 02:22 PM
@bold2013, have a blessed day…..😂😂😂🤭

ethernautrix
October 13th, 2021, 03:52 AM
Soooo ... no more football?

Chuck Naill
October 13th, 2021, 07:12 AM
Football is bigger than an overblown ego. Don't worry, it is here to stay as long as highly talented athletes, who can do nothing else, are willing to suffer irrepairable damage physically for large sums of money.

kazoolaw
October 13th, 2021, 08:02 AM
Bold2013, if it makes you feel any better, I'm sure that racism is still alive and well in the NFL. Gruden's comments (racist and homophobic and misogynist) are simply another indication that the pernicious attitudes still swim strong under the surface (mostly under) of the water.

Should we speculate what an examination of the texts and emails of the performers chosen for the Super Bowl half-time show would reveal?

Chip
October 13th, 2021, 12:20 PM
Soooo ... no more football?

https://i.imgur.com/bPi9FyZ.jpg

Good riddance. Yank football is a militaristic, corporate bore.

Soccer football is a better game and so is rugby (Go All Blacks!)

TSherbs
October 13th, 2021, 01:29 PM
Soooo ... no more football?

https://i.imgur.com/bPi9FyZ.jpg

Good riddance. Yank football is a militaristic, corporate bore.

Soccer football is a better game and so is rugby (Go All Blacks!)American football isn't a "bore," but it is certainly militaristic and corporate. Can't disagree there. And we could easily do without it.

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Empty_of_Clouds
October 13th, 2021, 02:25 PM
Funny. Just finishing up one of my sociology major papers and part of it touched on the Great Sports Myth.

Chuck Naill
October 13th, 2021, 02:47 PM
Bold2013, if it makes you feel any better, I'm sure that racism is still alive and well in the NFL. Gruden's comments (racist and homophobic and misogynist) are simply another indication that the pernicious attitudes still swim strong under the surface (mostly under) of the water.

Should we speculate what an examination of the texts and emails of the performers chosen for the Super Bowl half-time show would reveal?

Hell yes. I’m for full disclosure.

Chip
October 14th, 2021, 01:32 PM
It seems that Gruden has been spewing foul, abusive, mean e-mails for quite a while, while his players, colleagues, and owners kept mum.

If he uses that tone in messages, can you imagine what he says face-to-face? I feel sorry for his players and co-workers having to absorb that extreme of abuse.

Maybe he can get hired in Texas.

TSherbs
October 14th, 2021, 02:23 PM
Naw, he's done (my guess)

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Bold2013
October 15th, 2021, 05:37 PM
Obviously his emails contain inappropriate/offensive language. My issue is some of it was misconstrued and that after he had sincerely apologized and acknowledged his wrong doing there was no ‘grace’ for him.

Chip
October 15th, 2021, 05:47 PM
Misconstrued? Seriously? He just got caught.

Have a look at this:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/slightly-blighty/201801/larry-nassar-and-the-psychology-the-insincere-apology

Bold2013
October 15th, 2021, 06:04 PM
In the article he said one of the things he said was not race related but it was label as racism.

It is just sad to see the world growing darker (including coaches who are supposed to set a good example. Side note how hasn’t Urban Meyer not been fired). I am glad I haven’t got all that I deserve

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 06:59 PM
In the article he said one of the things he said was not race related but it was label as racism.

It is just sad to see the world growing darker (including coaches who are supposed to set a good example. Side note how hasn’t Urban Meyer not been fired). I am glad I haven’t got all that I deserve

This is not the claim that you began this thread with. You called caring about racism and other bigotry a "cult" and you declared that football was dead.

If your point is to say that you wish more mercy was practiced in the world, then you should not have opened with such histrionics. Gruden can give up his job and still receive mercy and forgiveness.

And by the way, his "apology" was weak. Even God's mercy is actually predicated usually on a sincerely contrite heart, one that has been clearly humbled. That was not the case with Gruden's public statements.

Bold2013
October 15th, 2021, 07:18 PM
I was just bemoaning that politics (all of which seems pretty toxic) had fully infiltrated the NFL. Specifically I addressed cancel culture, from Dr. Kendi’s anti racism cult which is steeped in politics, invading and destroying rather than enlightening and redeeming (yes you can care about partially without joining that worldview). I just want to watch my team lose without politics

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 07:23 PM
I was just bemoaning that politics (all of which seems pretty toxic) had fully infiltrated the NFL. Specifically I addressed cancel culture, from Dr. Kendi’s anti racism cult which is steeped in politics, invading and destroying rather than enlightening and redeeming (yes you can care about partially without joining that worldview). I just want to watch my team lose without politics

You're the one bringing "politics" into it. Make the change you seek in the NFL, within yourself. Let go of this notion of yours that anti-racism is a "cult." After all, the Romans called Christianity a cult and executed its members. You might want to remember that to help your perspective.


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ethernautrix
October 16th, 2021, 01:06 AM
Soooo ... no more football?

https://i.imgur.com/bPi9FyZ.jpg

Good riddance. Yank football is a militaristic, corporate bore.

Soccer football is a better game and so is rugby (Go All Blacks!)


Haha. Football (as it's known everywhere but in the US, haha) is certainly dramatic. Near fatal injuries with instant recoveries are hilarious. And that one guy with the teeth, Luis (?) the biter, hahaha. Thought that happened only in boxing.

I also have watched a lot of handball and ski-jumping. (Who am I?!)

BTW: I didn't watch the Olympics this last time 'round, cos technical problems with the TV and antenna that I'm not bothering to address, but the time or two before that, I was astonished by how much of the Olympics I was able to view while in Poland as opposed to the commercial-saturated, USA-centric (which, yeah, I get that) "coverage" in the States. Here, there were extended periods of coverage, with commercials shown in a block of, I don't remember, five or ten minutes, maybe 20. I know why that model doesn't work in the US, but, man, it's a superior Olympics-viewing experience.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 06:44 AM
I was just bemoaning that politics (all of which seems pretty toxic) had fully infiltrated the NFL.

The quest for justice and equity is not "toxic," any more than Jesus was "toxic" when he overturned the tables in the temple or stopped the hands of those rock throwers from killing the adulteress or when he multiplied the loaves and fish to feed the many or when he told the people that they were destined for punishment for by denying food and comfort to the lowest of society they were also denying it to their Christ.

You seem to be picking and choosing which acts of mercy and justice meet your standard of "cult"-ish arbitrarily (or by bigoted standards.) Part of "justice" is that persons of high power and public prominence sometimes lose their jobs when they tarnish their public image.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 07:15 AM
Should we speculate what an examination of the texts and emails of the performers chosen for the Super Bowl half-time show would reveal?


Sounds like you already have done this speculation: "What about dem blacks?"





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Chuck Naill
October 16th, 2021, 08:14 AM
I was just bemoaning that politics (all of which seems pretty toxic) had fully infiltrated the NFL.

The quest for justice and equity is not "toxic," any more than Jesus was "toxic" when he overturned the tables in the temple or stopped the hands of those rock throwers from killing the adulteress or when he multiplied the loaves and fish to feed the many or when he told the people that they were destined for punishment for by denying food and comfort to the lowest of society they were also denying it to their Christ.

You seem to be picking and choosing which acts of mercy and justice meet your standard of "cult"-ish arbitrarily (or by bigoted standards.) Part of "justice" is that persons of high power and public prominence sometimes lose their jobs when they tarnish their public image.

Well said!! When I read @Bold2013 reply, my first response was, did he/she change their mind since the OP.

I first experienced this "go along to get along" as a young adult, maybe 21, in a Baptist church where I had been reading the scriptures and noticed that how we operated in the church was not consistant with what the Bible said. The more I protested, the worse it got. I eventually left the denomination. We see this tendancy to tell people how they have to think if they want to be a part of the team. I say to hell with the team if the team is wrong.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 08:45 AM
Jesus was the original Christian (I know, he was a Jew) to say, "Stop playing for that team! They have it wrong! Come join my team, before it is too late...."

Bold2013
October 16th, 2021, 09:34 AM
I was just bemoaning that politics (all of which seems pretty toxic) had fully infiltrated the NFL.

The quest for justice and equity is not "toxic," any more than Jesus was "toxic" when he overturned the tables in the temple or stopped the hands of those rock throwers from killing the adulteress or when he multiplied the loaves and fish to feed the many or when he told the people that they were destined for punishment for by denying food and comfort to the lowest of society they were also denying it to their Christ.

You seem to be picking and choosing which acts of mercy and justice meet your standard of "cult"-ish arbitrarily (or by bigoted standards.) Part of "justice" is that persons of high power and public prominence sometimes lose their jobs when they tarnish their public image.

Justice can mean different things to different people. Man made justice can’t fix the mess it made. I am interested in a redemptive justice that is eternal rather than a redistribution that is temporal. Gods justice is justice, social justice is neo Marxism.

Do you think a flat tax fair? equal? Just?

Bold2013
October 16th, 2021, 09:50 AM
I first experienced this "go along to get along" as a young adult, maybe 21, in a Baptist church where I had been reading the scriptures and noticed that how we operated in the church was not consistant with what the Bible said. The more I protested, the worse it got. I eventually left the denomination. We see this tendancy to tell people how they have to think if they want to be a part of the team. I say to hell with the team if the team is wrong.[/QUOTE]

That’s refreshing to hear. Reading and studying the Bible for yourself really opens the eyes to the many fallacies of modern evangelicalism.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 10:25 AM
... I am interested in a redemptive justice that is eternal rather than a redistribution that is temporal. Gods justice is justice, social justice is neo Marxism.


Worldly justice comes in other forms, not only distributive. There, are, for example, both punitive and restorative forms, and these are much more common. Distributive justice has nothing to do with the Gruden football case. The Gruden case is about employee contracts and public relations and leadership. And Gruden resigned, technically.

And social justice is not "neo Marxism". I can't imagine where you get that idea from.

(I'm not interested in a tax discussion. You started this thread on the Gruden case around bigotry and being an NFL head coach).

Chuck Naill
October 16th, 2021, 12:23 PM
I first experienced this "go along to get along" as a young adult, maybe 21, in a Baptist church where I had been reading the scriptures and noticed that how we operated in the church was not consistant with what the Bible said. The more I protested, the worse it got. I eventually left the denomination. We see this tendancy to tell people how they have to think if they want to be a part of the team. I say to hell with the team if the team is wrong.

That’s refreshing to hear. Reading and studying the Bible for yourself really opens the eyes to the many fallacies of modern evangelicalism.[/QUOTE]

Like supporting an opportunist like Trump disguised as a conservative.

Bold2013
October 16th, 2021, 03:36 PM
I agree that Trump wasn’t truly conservative

Chip
October 16th, 2021, 05:14 PM
Haha. Football (as it's known everywhere but in the US, haha) is certainly dramatic.

NFL football is notable for how much time the players spend wandering about and scratching their parts, as opposed to playing the game.

Which serves the corporate interests, e.g. Big Beer, allowing plenty of time for viewers to get bored, swill beer, and revisit the refrigerator for more.

Chuck Naill
October 16th, 2021, 05:40 PM
I agree that Trump wasn’t truly conservative

Trump is an opportunist. Read Mary Trump's book for the rest of the story. It's in your library and will not cost you anything.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 05:41 PM
Haha. Football (as it's known everywhere but in the US, haha) is certainly dramatic.

NFL football is notable for how much time the players spend wandering about and scratching their parts, as opposed to playing the game.

Which serves the corporate interests, e.g. Big Beer, allowing plenty of time for viewers to get bored, swill beer, and revisit the refrigerator for more.Fair, but let's also note how much drinking and corporate sponsorsgip money is involved in FIFA. FIFA and European football [emoji460] are also rank with corporate monied interests and brute behavior (including issues with racism). I love soccer, by the way.

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Chip
October 16th, 2021, 10:54 PM
There's something about team sports, some atavistic tribal thing, that stimulates aggressive displays and violent behavior, sometimes petty and sometimes worse.

I remember the sports mania in high school: hazing, bullying, drunkenness, fights after games. I was on the basketball team and more than once we had to battle our way to the bus leaving an away game. In the individual sports I took part in—swimming, tennis, track— there wasn't that group aggression that surrounds football and basketball.

kazoolaw
October 17th, 2021, 12:21 AM
Should we speculate what an examination of the texts and emails of the performers chosen for the Super Bowl half-time show would reveal?


Sounds like you already have done this speculation: "What about dem blacks?"

I have. I suspect that they are about the same, but won't be examined because the spectacle must go on. Bread and circuses.
I have no idea what point your question is trying to make. Eminem is white.

TSherbs
October 17th, 2021, 07:05 AM
Should we speculate what an examination of the texts and emails of the performers chosen for the Super Bowl half-time show would reveal?


Sounds like you already have done this speculation: "What about dem blacks?"

I have. I suspect that they are about the same, but won't be examined because the spectacle must go on. Bread and circuses.
I have no idea what point your question is trying to make. Eminem is white.
Sorry. I have trouble reading the tone of your short answers in the form of questions.

I don't think that we should "speculate" on anyone's emails. And that's not why Gruden resigned, either (on "speculation").

TSherbs
October 17th, 2021, 07:08 AM
There's something about team sports, some atavistic tribal thing, that stimulates aggressive displays and violent behavior, sometimes petty and sometimes worse.

I remember the sports mania in high school: hazing, bullying, drunkenness, fights after games. I was on the basketball team and more than once we had to battle our way to the bus leaving an away game. In the individual sports I took part in—swimming, tennis, track— there wasn't that group aggression that surrounds football and basketball.Fortunately, this kind of violent behavior is less prominent now (I believe).

Now we just have cops and metal detectors in schools every day. [emoji853]

Chuck Naill
October 17th, 2021, 07:09 AM
Dave Chappelle is certainly getting some push back on his new special and now he's complaing about "cancel culture", so "what about dem blacks" may no longer be applicable.

TSherbs
October 17th, 2021, 07:31 AM
Dave Chappelle is certainly getting some push back on his new special and now he's complaing about "cancel culture", so "what about dem blacks" may no longer be applicable.Chuck, that was my line, and I may have misrepresented Kazoo's import.

But your point stands that people of color have also been in the hot seat for their behavior and words. Especially if they are prominent cultural figures.

Chuck Naill
October 17th, 2021, 08:52 AM
Dave Chappelle is certainly getting some push back on his new special and now he's complaing about "cancel culture", so "what about dem blacks" may no longer be applicable.Chuck, that was my line, and I may have misrepresented Kazoo's import.

But your point stands that people of color have also been in the hot seat for their behavior and words. Especially if they are prominent cultural figures.

I wasn’t complaining. Your point is appropriate and germane.

Just wanted to insert the idea that the cancel culture is color blind.

There are times when words get expressed while our better selves are not engaged. Learning how to provide an apology is required and never, “I’m not that person anymore or worse, “ if I offended someone….”

Men especially can be such wimps while attempting to look strong. Owning your actions takes courage but apparently some men were absent that day it was discussed.

welch
October 17th, 2021, 09:16 AM
We have lost another sport. Cancel culture is in full swing in the National Football League.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32384058/jon-gruden-resigns-las-vegas-raiders-head-coach

Well at least we have books… until they start burning them again…

This is nonsense, written as if the poster does not follow football. Bold certainly knows nothing about the Washington Redskins, Dan Snyder, and the NFL's investigation into what it concluded was Snyder's "toxic workplace" at the team he owns. Or perhaps Bold is a devoted believer in "l'il dan". The NFL examined thousands of emails; these Gruden emails were to and from Bruce Allen, president of the Redskins and Snyder's close friend...until Snyder fired him, changed the name from "Redskins" to "Name to be Named Later", and "Washington Team of Football" (WTF) meanwhile.

The NFL refuses to release details of the investigations, but we know that many of the Gruden-Allen emails were cc'd to others in the Redskin organization. Good chance those emails went to Snyder, and that they included other routine targets of bigots, especially including bigots. Remember that the NFL was "persuaded" to investigate the Snyderskins after Redskin cheerleaders complained that they had been forced to "entertain" Redskin "sponsors" -- men -- at an "adult" resort one off-season. There, the cheerleaders posed for the team's annual calendar, as Redskin staffers constructed a video of "the good bits" for Snyder and Allen and a couple other Snyder favorites.

In addition, the NFL was nudged into action after a former Redskin employee sued Snyder for sexual assault, and Snyder settled for $1.6 million.

All that went into a Washington Post investigation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/26/redskins-cheerleaders-video-daniel-snyder-washington/?itid=lk_inline_manual_10


Lewd cheerleader videos, sexist rules: Ex-employees decry Washington’s NFL team workplace

In “Beauties on the Beach,” the official video chronicling the making of the Washington NFL team’s 2008 cheerleader swimsuit calendar, the women frolic in the sand, rave about their custom bikinis and praise a photographer for putting them at ease in settings where sometimes only a strategically placed prop or tightly framed shot shielded otherwise bare breasts.

What the cheerleaders didn’t know was that another video, intended strictly for private use, would be produced using footage from that same shoot. Set to classic rock, the 10-minute unofficial video featured moments when nipples were inadvertently exposed as the women shifted positions or adjusted props.

The lewd outtakes were what Larry Michael, then the team’s lead broadcaster and a senior vice president, referred to as “the good bits” or “the good parts,” according to Brad Baker, a former member of Michael’s staff. Baker said in an interview that he was present when Michael told staffers to make the video for team owner Daniel Snyder.

Snyder and the team provided no comment after they were given repeated opportunities to respond to this and other allegations before the publication of this story. In a statement released hours after this story was published online Wednesday, Snyder wrote, “I do not have any knowledge of the ten-year old videos referenced in the story. I did not request their creation and I never saw them.”

“Nothing can be further from the truth. I was never asked to nor did I ask someone to compile videos as you described,” Michael said in an interview.

Baker recalls otherwise.

“Larry said something to the effect of, ‘We have a special project that we need to get done for the owner today: He needs us to get the good bits of the behind-the-scenes video from the cheerleader shoot onto a DVD for him,’” said Baker, who was a producer in the team’s broadcast department from 2007 to 2009.

The Washington Post obtained a copy of the 2008 video from another former employee, along with a similar outtakes video from the squad’s swimsuit calendar shoot in the Dominican Republic in 2010 that included a close-up of one cheerleader’s pubic area, obscured only by gold body paint.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/26/redskins-cheerleaders-video-daniel-snyder-washington/?itid=lk_inline_manual_10

Chuck Naill
October 17th, 2021, 09:34 AM
The standard response is to bash the Washington Post as a purveyor of fake news…roll eyes.

welch
October 17th, 2021, 09:35 AM
Sorry. That was a follow-up after the splash of the original report. Here is the first report:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/16/redskins-sexual-harassment-larry-michael-alex-santos/


From dream job to nightmare
More than a dozen women allege sexual harassment and verbal abuse by former team employees at Redskins Park

A few months after Emily Applegate started working for the Washington Redskins in 2014, she settled into a daily routine: She would meet a female co-worker in the bathroom during their lunch breaks, she said, to commiserate and cry about the frequent sexual harassment and verbal abuse they endured.

They cried about the former chief operating officer’s expletive-laced tirades, Applegate said, when she recalled him calling her “f---ing stupid” and then requesting she wear a tight dress for a meeting with clients, “so the men in the room have something to look at.” They cried about a wealthy suiteholder who grabbed her friend’s backside during a game, Applegate said, and the indifference the team’s top sales executive displayed when she complained.


But most of all, Applegate said, they cried about the realization that their dream job of working in the NFL came with what they characterized as relentless sexual harassment and verbal abuse that was ignored — and, in some cases, condoned — by top team executives.

Applegate is one of 15 former female Redskins employees who told The Washington Post they were sexually harassed during their time at the club. The other 14 women spoke on the condition of anonymity, citing a fear of litigation because some signed nondisclosure agreements with the team that threaten legal retribution if they speak negatively about the club. The team declined a request from The Post to release former female employees from these agreements so they could speak on the record without fear of legal reprisal. This story involved interviews with more than 40 current and former employees and a review of text messages and internal company documents.

Team owner Daniel Snyder declined several requests for an interview. Over the past week, as The Post presented detailed allegations and findings to the club, three team employees accused of improper behavior abruptly departed, including Larry Michael, the club’s longtime radio voice, and Alex Santos, the team’s director of pro personnel.

In a statement, the team said it had hired D.C. attorney Beth Wilkinson and her firm, Wilkinson Walsh, “to conduct a thorough independent review of this entire matter and help the team set new employee standards for the future.”



The NFL took ownership of Wilkinson's investigation, concluding that Snyder had created "a toxic workplace", fining the team $10 million. Snyder agreed to sit on the time-out bench for a while, letting his wife run the team.

The NFL refuses to release details of the investigation, but the Gruden-Allen emails leaked.

Here are some recent stories about Gruden, Allen, and Snyder. Note that Washington's home stadium is half-empty when the WTF plays. It probably has the lowest attendance in the NFL and the fewest season ticket holders. (Long-time Redskin fans, like me, ignore the games.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/10/12/nfl-wft-investigation-jon-gruden-emails/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/10/15/washington-football-team-cover-up/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/07/01/daniel-snyder-nfl-fine-sexual-harassment-investigation/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/10/16/jon-gruden-daniel-snyder-investigation/

welch
October 17th, 2021, 09:54 AM
Sally Jenkins, in The Post, wrote this last week. Incidentally, she mentions Aristotle, probably from the "Nichomachean Ethics" and the Milgram experiments. Just that would make any sports comment worthwhile.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/10/12/jon-gruden-nfl-emails/


Jon Gruden’s character was entirely formed, or malformed, in football. It’s hard to find someone who was more incubated in it. There is a sense that Gruden was not just speaking for himself in those emails but that he’s a representative NFL man in his blithe bigotry, that he is very much the football establishment in his talk of “queers” and fat-lipped Black men. And it’s going to be a challenge for everyone in and around the league who would like to separate themselves.

What makes his casually superior, straight and center-parted chauvinism so creepy is the traditionalness of his upbringing in the game. Born in Sandusky, Ohio, home of Knute Rockne. Son of a scout and coach. Went to high school in South Bend, Ind., in the shadow of Notre Dame, where his father served as an assistant to the legendary Dan Devine. As a young man he worked for the most iconic and influential coaching-tree franchises: the San Francisco 49ers and the Green Bay Packers. He spent years employed by ESPN and “Monday Night Football.” They all knew who he was and how he talked. Same with that unctuous scion Bruce Allen and the pervy trading of lewd pictures of topless women. It was learned inside the game.

As NFL-quarterback-turned-observer Sage Rosenfels tweeted, “If you thought that these emails would have been reported to officials by those who were receiving them, well the problem is that these are the same people.”

Gruden is not some bygone relic. He is the current NFL, and as the Las Vegas Raiders head coach he was at the very top of its pay hierarchy. He wrote those things between the ages of 47 and 54, some of them as recently as 2017, and it matters not at all that they are private expressions. In fact, that only makes them worse — there’s an unnerving divergence from his chatty charm-boy act for cameras that won him such rich contracts. He has spent his life culling rewards in a public-facing business, in which 70 percent of player-colleagues are Black and nearly half the audience is women, in which he had every opportunity to grow a respectful heart. His facile, favored-son abuse of position strikes at the heart of the league’s public meaning. He made a farce of it.

The NFL professes to be at least partly about the cultivation of excellence regardless of background, and it fights a constant battle against cliche in that respect. If the league has any real import, if it’s something more than mere forum entertainment, it’s in the message that people should be able to become better; that we’re imperfect and start with unequal gifts but we can strive to be self-made; that, as Aristotle put it, excellence “is a state of character concerned with choice.” At some point, Gruden’s outlook became a willful choice. He chose to view others as servile to him and his blustering legend of manhood. The message: If football can be improving, for a certain brand of privy-council young alpha male it’s also an excuse never to grow up and remain a preening, self-impressed bully forever.

Maybe the most cautionary part of Gruden’s NFL story is the danger of moral vanity. “I don’t have an ounce of racism in me,” he brayed. He said he didn’t have so much as a “blade of it” in him, as if he were a field of grass. Then what was he doing in those emails? Just leaking poison for sport?

It’s another inescapable fact of Gruden’s background that he grew up in the 1960s and 1970s, when many of his peers were soul-searching on the subjects of racism, feminism, militarism and every other -ism. Among the things that happened in that era were some famous social psychology experiments, which hinted that we ordinary people, who conceive of ourselves as decent and anti-racist, should not be nearly so certain of our inherently good and stable characters. We suppose we wouldn’t hurt others, that we would reject any wrongful forms of authority. Then social psychologist Stanley Milgram came along and showed that 65 percent of us would administer electric shocks to a neighbor until they screamed if someone authoritative told us to.

Gruden reminds you of nothing so much as that. Or of Michael Douglas’s character in the movie “Falling Down,” who is so blindly sure of his virtuosity that he doesn’t realize he has become a public menace. “We’re the same, you and me. We’re the same, don’t you see?” a racist storekeeper says to him. Douglas’s character replies, “We are not the same. I’m an American; you’re a sick a------.” And then the cops come for him, and he’s baffled, mystified.

“I’m the bad guy?” he says.

“I’m sorry,” Gruden said in a statement through the Raiders. “I never meant to hurt anyone.”

Gruden’s exposure is a similar inverse fall, with a total lack of awareness that his outlook is slanted or that he might have caused harm with it. It’s a warning to his colleagues, who should ask themselves whether this game has made them the good guys or the bad guys.

TSherbs
October 17th, 2021, 10:03 AM
Sally Jenkins, in The Post, wrote this last week. Incidentally, she mentions Aristotle, probably from the "Nichomachean Ethics" and the Milgram experiments. Just that would make any sports comment worthwhile.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/10/12/jon-gruden-nfl-emails/


Jon Gruden’s character was entirely formed, or malformed, in football. It’s hard to find someone who was more incubated in it. There is a sense that Gruden was not just speaking for himself in those emails but that he’s a representative NFL man in his blithe bigotry, that he is very much the football establishment in his talk of “queers” and fat-lipped Black men. And it’s going to be a challenge for everyone in and around the league who would like to separate themselves.

What makes his casually superior, straight and center-parted chauvinism so creepy is the traditionalness of his upbringing in the game. Born in Sandusky, Ohio, home of Knute Rockne. Son of a scout and coach. Went to high school in South Bend, Ind., in the shadow of Notre Dame, where his father served as an assistant to the legendary Dan Devine. As a young man he worked for the most iconic and influential coaching-tree franchises: the San Francisco 49ers and the Green Bay Packers. He spent years employed by ESPN and “Monday Night Football.” They all knew who he was and how he talked. Same with that unctuous scion Bruce Allen and the pervy trading of lewd pictures of topless women. It was learned inside the game.

As NFL-quarterback-turned-observer Sage Rosenfels tweeted, “If you thought that these emails would have been reported to officials by those who were receiving them, well the problem is that these are the same people.”

Gruden is not some bygone relic. He is the current NFL, and as the Las Vegas Raiders head coach he was at the very top of its pay hierarchy. He wrote those things between the ages of 47 and 54, some of them as recently as 2017, and it matters not at all that they are private expressions. In fact, that only makes them worse — there’s an unnerving divergence from his chatty charm-boy act for cameras that won him such rich contracts. He has spent his life culling rewards in a public-facing business, in which 70 percent of player-colleagues are Black and nearly half the audience is women, in which he had every opportunity to grow a respectful heart. His facile, favored-son abuse of position strikes at the heart of the league’s public meaning. He made a farce of it.

The NFL professes to be at least partly about the cultivation of excellence regardless of background, and it fights a constant battle against cliche in that respect. If the league has any real import, if it’s something more than mere forum entertainment, it’s in the message that people should be able to become better; that we’re imperfect and start with unequal gifts but we can strive to be self-made; that, as Aristotle put it, excellence “is a state of character concerned with choice.” At some point, Gruden’s outlook became a willful choice. He chose to view others as servile to him and his blustering legend of manhood. The message: If football can be improving, for a certain brand of privy-council young alpha male it’s also an excuse never to grow up and remain a preening, self-impressed bully forever.

Maybe the most cautionary part of Gruden’s NFL story is the danger of moral vanity. “I don’t have an ounce of racism in me,” he brayed. He said he didn’t have so much as a “blade of it” in him, as if he were a field of grass. Then what was he doing in those emails? Just leaking poison for sport?

It’s another inescapable fact of Gruden’s background that he grew up in the 1960s and 1970s, when many of his peers were soul-searching on the subjects of racism, feminism, militarism and every other -ism. Among the things that happened in that era were some famous social psychology experiments, which hinted that we ordinary people, who conceive of ourselves as decent and anti-racist, should not be nearly so certain of our inherently good and stable characters. We suppose we wouldn’t hurt others, that we would reject any wrongful forms of authority. Then social psychologist Stanley Milgram came along and showed that 65 percent of us would administer electric shocks to a neighbor until they screamed if someone authoritative told us to.

Gruden reminds you of nothing so much as that. Or of Michael Douglas’s character in the movie “Falling Down,” who is so blindly sure of his virtuosity that he doesn’t realize he has become a public menace. “We’re the same, you and me. We’re the same, don’t you see?” a racist storekeeper says to him. Douglas’s character replies, “We are not the same. I’m an American; you’re a sick a------.” And then the cops come for him, and he’s baffled, mystified.

“I’m the bad guy?” he says.

“I’m sorry,” Gruden said in a statement through the Raiders. “I never meant to hurt anyone.”

Gruden’s exposure is a similar inverse fall, with a total lack of awareness that his outlook is slanted or that he might have caused harm with it. It’s a warning to his colleagues, who should ask themselves whether this game has made them the good guys or the bad guys.Wow, that is super-charged writing, welch.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

TSherbs
October 17th, 2021, 10:05 AM
This is nonsense, written as if the poster does not follow football. Bold certainly knows nothing about the Washington Redskins, Dan Snyder, and the NFL's investigation into what it concluded was Snyder's "toxic workplace" at the team he owns. Or perhaps Bold is a devoted believer in "l'il dan". The NFL examined thousands of emails; these Gruden emails were to and from Bruce Allen, president of the Redskins and Snyder's close friend...until Snyder fired him, changed the name from "Redskins" to "Name to be Named Later", and "Washington Team of Football" (WTF) meanwhile.

The NFL refuses to release details of the investigations, but we know that many of the Gruden-Allen emails were cc'd to others in the Redskin organization. Good chance those emails went to Snyder, and that they included other routine targets of bigots, especially including bigots. Remember that the NFL was "persuaded" to investigate the Snyderskins after Redskin cheerleaders complained that they had been forced to "entertain" Redskin "sponsors" -- men -- at an "adult" resort one off-season. There, the cheerleaders posed for the team's annual calendar, as Redskin staffers constructed a video of "the good bits" for Snyder and Allen and a couple other Snyder favorites.

In addition, the NFL was nudged into action after a former Redskin employee sued Snyder for sexual assault, and Snyder settled for $1.6 million.

All that went into a Washington Post investigation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/26/redskins-cheerleaders-video-daniel-snyder-washington/?itid=lk_inline_manual_10


Lewd cheerleader videos, sexist rules: Ex-employees decry Washington’s NFL team workplace

In “Beauties on the Beach,” the official video chronicling the making of the Washington NFL team’s 2008 cheerleader swimsuit calendar, the women frolic in the sand, rave about their custom bikinis and praise a photographer for putting them at ease in settings where sometimes only a strategically placed prop or tightly framed shot shielded otherwise bare breasts.

What the cheerleaders didn’t know was that another video, intended strictly for private use, would be produced using footage from that same shoot. Set to classic rock, the 10-minute unofficial video featured moments when nipples were inadvertently exposed as the women shifted positions or adjusted props.

The lewd outtakes were what Larry Michael, then the team’s lead broadcaster and a senior vice president, referred to as “the good bits” or “the good parts,” according to Brad Baker, a former member of Michael’s staff. Baker said in an interview that he was present when Michael told staffers to make the video for team owner Daniel Snyder.

Snyder and the team provided no comment after they were given repeated opportunities to respond to this and other allegations before the publication of this story. In a statement released hours after this story was published online Wednesday, Snyder wrote, “I do not have any knowledge of the ten-year old videos referenced in the story. I did not request their creation and I never saw them.”

“Nothing can be further from the truth. I was never asked to nor did I ask someone to compile videos as you described,” Michael said in an interview.

Baker recalls otherwise.

“Larry said something to the effect of, ‘We have a special project that we need to get done for the owner today: He needs us to get the good bits of the behind-the-scenes video from the cheerleader shoot onto a DVD for him,’” said Baker, who was a producer in the team’s broadcast department from 2007 to 2009.

The Washington Post obtained a copy of the 2008 video from another former employee, along with a similar outtakes video from the squad’s swimsuit calendar shoot in the Dominican Republic in 2010 that included a close-up of one cheerleader’s pubic area, obscured only by gold body paint.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/26/redskins-cheerleaders-video-daniel-snyder-washington/?itid=lk_inline_manual_10Thank you for helping me see the bigger picture. Yikes, what a foul place and group of people.

Chuck Naill
October 17th, 2021, 10:06 AM
Hells bells, he wasn’t much of a player himself.
Perhaps being humiliated as a player was the inspiration for his little man syndrome.

kazoolaw
October 18th, 2021, 06:24 AM
Should we speculate what an examination of the texts and emails of the performers chosen for the Super Bowl half-time show would reveal?


Sounds like you already have done this speculation: "What about dem blacks?"

I have. I suspect that they are about the same, but won't be examined because the spectacle must go on. Bread and circuses.
I have no idea what point your question is trying to make. Eminem is white.
Sorry. I have trouble reading the tone of your short answers in the form of questions.

I don't think that we should "speculate" on anyone's emails. And that's not why Gruden resigned, either (on "speculation").

Correct: Gruden didn't resign on speculation. But 2 or 3 out of 650,000 is the halo on the head of a million angels dancing on the head of a pin. As in....

Much of what follows is paraphrasing sports talk radio this morning:
1. The Gruden emails were what, two out of 650,000? Let that number roll around inside your head. Can you name anything you have 650,000 of?
2. If you're doing an investigation of massive numbers of emails, investigators often log them by date, subject, sender, receiver. Where did these two fall? The 10th and 11th? Did you stop looking after that? Was there anything similar in the first 9?
3. There are sophisticated methods/software to search a data base like this using search terms, date ranges, to and from, and other ways I've never gotten familiar with. Did the media giant WaPo do that kind of analysis? Gotta think the NFL has. Which brings us to:
4. With so many clamoring for full disclosure, why hasn't the NFL ownership pushed for that? Who, outside the Washington Football Team, would be outed in full disclosure? Did WaPo reporters get perks: tickets, access, luxury suites? Who, inside and outside the team, got invited, or told, about the alleged parties? Who sent/received the nude photos?
5. Did anyone ever say "No" this is over the line and has to stop?

Wild guess: the NFL owners are hoping this whole thing blows over as the games go on. Given our national short attention span there's a good chance that we'll move on to the next big thing in the next 140 characters.

{Apologies if I'm repeating the more thoughtful posts above: I haven't made my way through them all yet.}

welch
October 18th, 2021, 08:27 AM
Should we speculate what an examination of the texts and emails of the performers chosen for the Super Bowl half-time show would reveal?


Sounds like you already have done this speculation: "What about dem blacks?"

I have. I suspect that they are about the same, but won't be examined because the spectacle must go on. Bread and circuses.
I have no idea what point your question is trying to make. Eminem is white.
Sorry. I have trouble reading the tone of your short answers in the form of questions.

I don't think that we should "speculate" on anyone's emails. And that's not why Gruden resigned, either (on "speculation").

Correct: Gruden didn't resign on speculation. But 2 or 3 out of 650,000 is the halo on the head of a million angels dancing on the head of a pin. As in....

Much of what follows is paraphrasing sports talk radio this morning:
1. The Gruden emails were what, two out of 650,000? Let that number roll around inside your head. Can you name anything you have 650,000 of?
2. If you're doing an investigation of massive numbers of emails, investigators often log them by date, subject, sender, receiver. Where did these two fall? The 10th and 11th? Did you stop looking after that? Was there anything similar in the first 9?
3. There are sophisticated methods/software to search a data base like this using search terms, date ranges, to and from, and other ways I've never gotten familiar with. Did the media giant WaPo do that kind of analysis? Gotta think the NFL has. Which brings us to:
4. With so many clamoring for full disclosure, why hasn't the NFL ownership pushed for that? Who, outside the Washington Football Team, would be outed in full disclosure? Did WaPo reporters get perks: tickets, access, luxury suites? Who, inside and outside the team, got invited, or told, about the alleged parties? Who sent/received the nude photos?
5. Did anyone ever say "No" this is over the line and has to stop?

Wild guess: the NFL owners are hoping this whole thing blows over as the games go on. Given our national short attention span there's a good chance that we'll move on to the next big thing in the next 140 characters.

{Apologies if I'm repeating the more thoughtful posts above: I haven't made my way through them all yet.}



Kaz, I think the NY Times broke the Gruden story based on leaks from the investigation into Little Danny Snyder and the Washington Team of Football (WTF). The NFL was investigating what they called the "toxic workplace" that Snyder had created as he tore down the Redskins. After the Post released the stories from the women staffers and the cheerleaders, and after the Post discovered that Snyder had paid $1.5 million to a woman who accused him of sexual assault, Snyder hired a lawyer named Beth Wilkinson to investigate himself and to set workplace rules that would reflect the high standards he expected.

The NFL took over Wilkinson's investigation to give it more impartiality, as best I can remember and understand.

Meanwhile, Snyder fired Larry Michael, the Redskin radio broadcaster, plus the VP for player personnel. They had been named as having ordered the Redskin video team to construct a video for Snyder of "the good bits" as the Redskin cheerleaders undressed for the team's calendar photos.

About the same time, Snyder fired Bruce Allen. As you know, Bruce was Snyder's replacement for Vinny Cerrato: the inside-football expert, the pal. Snyder's two minority partners were trying to sell their shares of the Redskins, but Snyder demanded that they sell to him for less than they had been offered outside. Either Allen or Snyder hired a set of private detectives to harass the lawyers for the partners. When that was revealed, Snyder suggested that Allen was the evil underling, the under-lord of misrule responsible for all bad things inflicted on himself and Redskin fans.

After Wilkinson's investigation, the NFL released a one-page decision declaring that Snyder had created a "toxic workplace environment" inside the Redskins, fining the renamed WTF $10 million, and ordering Snyder to give up day-to-day control for a while. Snyder appointed his wife, Tanya, as temporary boss. The NFL refuses to release any of the famous 650,000 emails it -- Wilkinson's team -- says it reviewed.

Someone inside the NFL office seems to have leaked Gruden's and Allen's emails to the NY Times. On them, the cc-list had been "redacted". They appear to have been exchanged in 2011.

I don't know what sports-talk people -- hosts or callers -- might be saying, but you and I have been Redskin fans long enough to see that all of this fits with the way Snyder runs the Redskins. Looks to me like the NFL, meaning all the other owners, hope to cover over Snyder's way of running (down) the Skins. They probably have enough of their own garbage they do not want revealed. Maybe they like having Snyder own the Redskins because he arranges his teams to lose, although it might be awkward when TV cameras pick up the empty seats at FEDEX Field. Maybe Snyder had the Gruden-Allen emails leaked because Snyder expected focus and fury to shift to fall-guy Bruce Allen. Hard to tell...it's a bit like penetrating the swirling fog at the beginning of MacBeth.

kazoolaw
October 18th, 2021, 09:14 AM
Welch, right with you until "you and I have been Redskin fans." Although I appreciated John Riggins telling Justice Sandra Day O'Connor to "Loosen up, Sandy baby" my NFL team affliction of choice has been the Lions. As far as I know they're simply inept, not toxic.

welch
October 18th, 2021, 11:44 AM
Welch, right with you until "you and I have been Redskin fans." Although I appreciated John Riggins telling Justice Sandra Day O'Connor to "Loosen up, Sandy baby" my NFL team affliction of choice has been the Lions. As far as I know they're simply inept, not toxic.


Wait a minute, Kaz. I know you had some sort of Michander "affliction", but I remember your appreciation of the team once connected to The Hogs. Maybe that was a passing "affliction"? It's probably good that you had connection to a team more reasonable that that once owned by George Preston Marshall and now owned by little danny Snyder. Me? I'm stuck, so I pay attention, now, to the Capitals and Nationals. Redskins lost dismally yesterday, by the way.

welch
October 18th, 2021, 12:32 PM
Just for the record, it appears that the Wall Street Journal broke the Gruden story: https://www.wsj.com/articles/jon-gruden-email-demaurice-smith-11633721045?mod=e2tw

Lurking in the fog: ins and outs of fights between NFL players, the head of the players' union, DeMaurice Smith, and the owners. Fog in the Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/sports/football/nfl-demaurice-smith-jon-gruden-racist-comment.html

The real story:
Gruden’s Emails Were Collateral Damage in Washington Football Inquiry

The former Raiders coach’s toxic commentary emerged from a separate investigation that had nothing to do with him, and remained secret because the probe was designed to be opaque.

By Kevin Draper
Published Oct. 12, 2021
Updated Oct. 14, 2021
The former Las Vegas Raiders Coach Jon Gruden is out of a job in the aftermath of an investigation that originally had nothing to do with him. But now he is collateral damage in a tangled case that had focused on the conduct of Daniel Snyder, the contentious owner of the Washington Football Team, and his feud with investors in the team.

Snyder has emerged with firmer control of Washington than before, even after Roger Goodell, the league’s commissioner, concluded that the workplace environment at the team was “highly unprofessional” and a place of bullying, intimidation and fear. The team was fined $10 million.

A scorched-earth dispute has played out over the last year, with damning information and accusations of wrongdoing weaponized by those involved. Gruden’s high-profile football career, which made him a wealthy man and an avatar of the sport itself, meant that his misdeeds became leverage in a fight that wasn’t even directly about him.

Snyder and the Washington Football Team have long been mired in controversy, whether for the previous team name that was eventually dropped because it was a slur toward Native Americans or the organization’s mistreatment of its cheerleaders. But the situation escalated in the summer of 2020 when The Washington Post published a report in which two dozen current and former employees described an atmosphere of pervasive sexual harassment, bullying and abuse at work. At least a half dozen employees were fired or resigned, others were pushed out and the team commissioned an outside investigation by the law firm Wilkinson Walsh that was soon taken over by the N.F.L. itself.

Parallel to and often intersecting with the workplace misconduct investigation was a bitter internecine quarrel between Snyder and three of the team’s limited partners, Frederick W. Smith, Dwight Schar and Robert Rothman, who collectively owned 40 percent of the franchise. Attempts by the three limited partners to sell their shares devolved into acrimony with Snyder, and the N.F.L. appointed an arbitrator to resolve the matter privately.

Their dispute did not stay private for long.

Snyder soon sued an obscure online media company in India, accusing it of taking money in exchange for publishing defamatory rumors about him. In lawsuit filings, Snyder also accused a representative trying to help the limited partners sell their shares of wrongly telling a potential investor that Snyder would soon be forced to sell because of negative information spilling out into public.

In effect, Snyder accused the men who had co-owned the team with him since 2003 of leaking negative information to The Washington Post and the Indian media company to attempt to force him to sell his stake in the team, too.

Selling minority stakes in football teams valued at billions of dollars in full can be quite difficult, and if Snyder were forced to sell his stake in the team too, the limited partners could presumably sell more easily, and at a higher price.

Throughout the end of 2020 and into 2021, both the investigation into Washington’s workplace culture and the N.F.L.’s mediation of the ownership dispute proceeded more quietly. In March, the N.F.L. tentatively approved an agreement in which Snyder would be allowed to take on more debt than the league traditionally allows in order to buy out his three partners. It was a sign that the outside investigation, while not yet complete, would largely exonerate Snyder personally.

Three months later, in July, that was exactly what happened. The N.F.L. finally resolved the yearlong investigation. The Washington Football Team was ordered to pay a $10 million fine and reimburse the cost of the investigation, and Snyder said he would cede day-to-day control of the team to a new co-chief executive, his wife, Tanya Snyder. The team’s human resources department was ordered to be monitored for the next two years.

But the investigation’s findings were not made public, and nothing was said about allegations about Snyder’s behavior toward female employees. Not only did the N.F.L. not release a thorough report, it did not even ask for one. Instead, Beth Wilkinson, the lead outside investigator, briefed the N.F.L. on her findings orally.

“We felt it was best due to the sensitivity of the allegations and the requests for confidentiality,” Lisa Friel, the N.F.L. executive in charge of investigations, told reporters.

Part of the investigation, however, involved the review of the emails sent and received by Bruce Allen, the team’s longtime general manager and president, and a close confidant of Snyder, until Allen was fired in 2019. The review of Allen’s inbox and outbox is what ultimately led to Gruden’s resignation, and showed that Allen participated in inappropriate and offensive conversations, including the sharing of pornographic images.

Allen was a senior executive with the Raiders during Gruden’s first stint as the head coach there, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and both eventually went to work for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, where they won a Super Bowl following the 2002 season. Both left the team in 2008. Gruden went on to work for ESPN as a color analyst for “Monday Night Football,” and Allen was eventually hired by Washington. As general manager there, Allen hired Gruden’s brother, Jay Gruden, who coached the team from 2014 to 2019.

Though Jon Gruden and Allen ceased being co-workers in 2008, they regularly chatted about N.F.L. matters by email. Gruden used a private email address while Allen used his official Washington Football Team account. Wilkinson’s investigation collected those emails, as well as hundreds of thousands of others, which were analyzed and discussed by the league, but not noted in any report.

Since 2014, the N.F.L. has been embroiled, nearly constantly, in misconduct scandals that necessitated external investigations. Most of them have been limited to accusations against players and tests of the league’s authority to punish their misconduct. One of the few that threatened to drag the league office and team owners into the harsh spotlight, Colin Kaepernick and Eric Reid’s accusations that they were blackballed from the league, was settled before that could happen.

A number of questions remain unanswered about Washington’s workplace, and what the N.F.L. and the Raiders knew about Gruden’s emails and how those organizations handled them. But so far the biggest public revelations have centered on Gruden, not Snyder or anyone directly associated with the Washington Football Team.

In an investigation of workplace harassment, the extent of the harassment is still unknown publicly.



https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/sports/football/jon-gruden-emails-dan-snyder.html?action=click&algo=bandit-all-surfaces_impression_cut_3&block=more_in_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=71212355&impression_id=341f4ef3-3040-11ec-adb0-472ea2e4c880&index=3&pgtype=Article&pool=more_in_pools%2Fnfl&region=footer&req_id=120884518&surface=eos-more-in&variant=3_clicks_dedupe_only_MP_EP__impression_cut _3_MI

TSherbs
October 18th, 2021, 03:00 PM
Thanks, Welch, for educating all of us.

Kazoo: It doesn't matter to me how many pleasant emails, at other times, Gruden composed (and 650k isn't how many Gruden wrote, I don't believe. It is the total collected from the WFT account, as I understand it, some of which--I have no idea how many--were to and from Gruden). As at my place of employment, arguing that I usually or nearly often or 1 million other times have written acceptable emails will not excuse me from the consequences of violating my employee contract, even just once if it is considered egregious enough.

Are you suggesting that Gruden has been treated unfairly, because....why?

Chuck Naill
October 18th, 2021, 04:12 PM
Thanks, Welch, for educating all of us.

Kazoo: It doesn't matter to me how many pleasant emails, at other times, Gruden composed (and 650k isn't how many Gruden wrote, I don't believe. It is the total collected from the WFT account, as I understand it, some of which--I have no idea how many--were to and from Gruden). As at my place of employment, arguing that I usually or nearly often or 1 million other times have written acceptable emails will not excuse me from the consequences of violating my employee contract, even just once if it is considered egregious enough.

Are you suggesting that Gruden has been treated unfairly, because....why?

Same here. Don't send an email that you would not want on the front page of the NYT the next day. Ain't worth it. Thing it, Gruden must have thought he was gold or maybe Kryptonite.

kazoolaw
October 18th, 2021, 04:58 PM
Thanks, Welch, for educating all of us.

Kazoo: It doesn't matter to me how many pleasant emails, at other times, Gruden composed (and 650k isn't how many Gruden wrote, I don't believe. It is the total collected from the WFT account, as I understand it, some of which--I have no idea how many--were to and from Gruden). As at my place of employment, arguing that I usually or nearly often or 1 million other times have written acceptable emails will not excuse me from the consequences of violating my employee contract, even just once if it is considered egregious enough.

Are you suggesting that Gruden has been treated unfairly, because....why?

Not even close. My point was that 1(1) we can't be sure how many other offensive Gruden emails there were, (2) no one has disclosed how many others wrote similar or worse emails, and (3) why haven't ALL of the emails been disclosed?

None of your comments in your first paragraph reflect my thinking. At your workplace and mine it's clear we have no right to privacy in what are corporate property. Reread the first paragraph of Welch's quoted article and my comment about only the smallest sample has been made public.

TSherbs
October 18th, 2021, 06:21 PM
@kazoolaw

gotcha

Like I said, I have trouble understanding your basic positions from some of your comments, particularly when you ask questions.

I feel Gruden deserved to lose his job. It's sad, and I wish it weren't so, but his emails are egregious and he is a figure head for his team.

I think that Welch had answered those questions for you: the leak was selective (apparently) and the NFL has been sitting on the details in the typical way that the NFL does to protect its brand and ownership (this is speculative, of course).

Chuck Naill
October 19th, 2021, 06:04 AM
Thanks, Welch, for educating all of us.

Kazoo: It doesn't matter to me how many pleasant emails, at other times, Gruden composed (and 650k isn't how many Gruden wrote, I don't believe. It is the total collected from the WFT account, as I understand it, some of which--I have no idea how many--were to and from Gruden). As at my place of employment, arguing that I usually or nearly often or 1 million other times have written acceptable emails will not excuse me from the consequences of violating my employee contract, even just once if it is considered egregious enough.

Are you suggesting that Gruden has been treated unfairly, because....why?

Not even close. My point was that 1(1) we can't be sure how many other offensive Gruden emails there were, (2) no one has disclosed how many others wrote similar or worse emails, and (3) why haven't ALL of the emails been disclosed?

None of your comments in your first paragraph reflect my thinking. At your workplace and mine it's clear we have no right to privacy in what are corporate property. Reread the first paragraph of Welch's quoted article and my comment about only the smallest sample has been made public.




Using this forum as an analogy, if someone were out to get me banned, and in the process of gathering my offensive posts, you get banned because of your offensive posts. Then someone says, what about Kazoo"s other offensive posts that were not tagged. Is this what you are asking? Or, some asks, why was only chuck naill's offensive posts singled out while other memnbers may have done the same or worse. We had a saying in a company I was with once that said, "if they want to get rid of you they will find a reason". Being fair or thorough was never the goal.

kazoolaw
October 19th, 2021, 08:02 AM
Assume that FPG has 650,000 emails. FPG owns them and hosts them.

An outside agency is going to audit/investigate those emails for "bad things" [fill in yours of choice, or use all the bad things welch listed in his posts]

It looks at the emails, finds two by CN [they're bad] and releases them. People are outraged and CN leaves FPG.

Recall, the original investigation was of FPG, not CN. Funny how just those two emails leaked out. What's in the other 649,998 emails? Who else sent or received those emails? Who was cc'd and did nothing? Why is FPG withholding all the rest of the emails?

No analogy is perfect, certainly not mine. But I think that in a broad overstatement kind of way it gives the gist of it.

welch
October 19th, 2021, 10:14 AM
Assume that FPG has 650,000 emails. FPG owns them and hosts them.

An outside agency is going to audit/investigate those emails for "bad things" [fill in yours of choice, or use all the bad things welch listed in his posts]

It looks at the emails, finds two by CN [they're bad] and releases them. People are outraged and CN leaves FPG.

Recall, the original investigation was of FPG, not CN. Funny how just those two emails leaked out. What's in the other 649,998 emails? Who else sent or received those emails? Who was cc'd and did nothing? Why is FPG withholding all the rest of the emails?

No analogy is perfect, certainly not mine. But I think that in a broad overstatement kind of way it gives the gist of it.



I don't know much about analogies, so I suspect that

- the two emails are typical of what Dan Snyder and Bruce Allen wrote, since we know about the woman-hating organization that Snyder built

- the NFL wants to shield Snyder from any more embarrassment, as if it's not embarrassment enough that Snyder settle a suit claiming that he sexually assaulted a woman who worked for him

- further evidence of the shielding being that the NFL insisted on a presentation from its investigator, Beth Wilkinson, rather than a written report

- the NFL will not, no way, no how, not ever release a detailed report on the Redskins; the NFL will never release the rest of the emails

- the two Gruden emails were leaked for reasons that none of us can guess. Maybe a move by NFL owners to help the head of the players' union? That's the guy Gruden insulted to Bruce Allen. Someone searching for evidence against Gruden alone? Dan Snyder, the guy who sued an elderly widow demanding that she pay for her next season tickets? She lost a lot of money in the Crash of 2008 and tried to get out of season ticket holding. Was Snyder trying to shift attention, again, to his ex-buddy, Bruce Allen?

- all of the above being a reason that the Snyders decided, on three or four days' notice, to retire Sean Taylor's number 21 this past Sunday. Taylor, for non-NFL fans, was a very good safety for the Redskins for four years, but nothing like the other two with retired numbers: Sammy Baugh, who perfected the forward pass into an offensive weapon; Bobby Mitchell, an All Pro running back and wide receiver, and the first black player for the Washington Redskins...although discussing founding owner George Preston Marshall might take us far away from Jon Gruden.

Chuck Naill
October 19th, 2021, 10:57 AM
I know there are many fans and lots of money, but beyond that, it’s a pretty stupid game, that I admit to playing, that can’t be played without a watch and cameras.

kazoolaw
October 19th, 2021, 10:59 AM
Breaking: NFL has removed all bad coaches and players. One man left standing.
tiny.cc/pagkuz

Chuck Naill
October 19th, 2021, 11:18 AM
Reminds me of the Genesis story of Sodom.

Chuck Naill
October 20th, 2021, 09:40 AM
Some wrote the real NFL is an “okay cutlture”.

BoBo Olson
November 9th, 2021, 09:05 AM
HS football is a good fast game, over in an hour and 15 - 20 minutes.

Pro and Collage football used to be the same back when the split screen showing the split end was the new thing. Back when Color TV was affordable for the middle class.
Now you have 3 hours and more.

The Commercial Bowl is a here in Germany a 4 hour bore, we don't get to see the commercials; just men standing around in large ovals waiting for a game break. I normally fall to sleep so don't know if we get the 30 minute half time show with no commercials....don't know what they show in the meanwhile between acts.

And with all the crud going on with the raciest America back to the past of 1955, how can it be ignored that being raciest went out in 1985..... when Randall Cunningham proved blacks were not too stupid to play pro QB.

The fired coach, was born in '63....so should have grown up less racist, but didn't. I am an American living in Germany and am so shocked, we have not advanced, in fact fallen back into such racism.
As a child, I remember thinking it was so unfair, the Colored Water fountain had warm water and the White's Only had cold water, on a scotching Mississippi summer day.
Couldn't afford going to a restaurant, so it didn't bother me the blacks couldn't go to one. When one is 11-12 one is blind and dumb. What's the excuse today????

One kept good care of school books, in when they was old, the colored got them. So one had pride they got real good looking old used school books. Not taking good care of school books was a beating worth of buying one.

Even then any kid with any sense knew murdering Evers was wrong, or any of the other KKK murders. What's the excuse today?

Banning little kid school books about King, and some other black person. Saying they were actually people....burn the books........that is done right after books are banned.

Racism...as a theme....I thought they were beating a dead horse. But they weren't. White racism to foreign press was submerged until four years ago........and now racism's back to full strength.....

Just to make sure I anger everyone, there is just as much black racism or so it appears to a distant white guy.
We Americans did not grow up in the 30-40 years I was away.

In any southern woman with any brains will move to freedom, there will be a lot more San Francisco men's bars down south. LOL cubed.

Chuck Naill
November 9th, 2021, 11:37 AM
I’m a bit lost on the last poster’s intent.

A racism definition is broad. MLK noted he had white supporters who won’t want their children involved with a black person.

And, if a dark skinned person is an ass, they are an ass. No racism required.

welch
November 12th, 2021, 09:18 PM
Jon Gruden has sued the NFL for destroying his career. I hope that Gruden will get all 650,000 emails that the Wilkinson - NFL investigation reviewed before it found that Dan Snyder, owner of the Redskins, had created a "toxic work environment", a Gowanus ("most polluted body of water in the US") of an organization. Offhand, I suspect that the Snyders leaked the emails as a way to hurt Bruce Allen, Snyder's GM and best buddy for about ten years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/11/12/jon-gruden-nfl-lawsuit-roger-goodell/

Chip
November 13th, 2021, 06:05 PM
Gruden has the right to say anything he wants in his private communications, but as a coach who works for a team, he should realize that he is also seen as representing his organization. Not sure how stupid or compulsive you have to be for that not to register, but he evidently was so invested in spewing venom (given the nod-and-wink culture of pro sports) that he felt immune.

Good riddance.

TSherbs
November 14th, 2021, 05:00 AM
We don't need Gruden or pro football. But everyone is entitled to their day in court, as long as the case isn't frivolous.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Chuck Naill
November 14th, 2021, 06:22 AM
I have to agree, life is short and giving one second to Gruden's situation is the waste of precious resources. If you want to follow sports, be a coach in you community as a volunteer. Join a running club. Join a target shooting group.

I was discussing Simon Bile's with a friend. Did anyone ask about where her parents were in all these sexual abuses?

Fact is, I think many who play professional sports, it's all they can do. Their universities didn't demand much or give much. What college coaches make, what is spent on sports, and the cost of higher education is a national shame.

dneal
November 18th, 2021, 07:42 AM
64973

welch
November 20th, 2021, 01:23 PM
Since too many people have no idea of Dan Snyder and his Washington Deadskins other than that Dan and Tanya probably released the Gruden emails as a way to stab their GM and team president Bruce Allen because, well, that's what the Snyders do, here is an article from more than a decade ago, after Tanya Snyder said that Dan had "evolved" during his ownership of the Deadskins.

https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/221900/the-cranky-redskins-fans-guide-to-dan-snyder/


So before we welcome the New Dan Snyder, let’s look back at the one we know. That’s the Dan Snyder who left his mark, or stain, on more than just a football team. That’s the Dan Snyder who got caught forging names as a telemarketer with Snyder Communications, made a great view of the Potomac River for himself by going all Agent Orange on federally protected lands, and lost over $121 million of Bill Gates’ money while selling an “official mattress” while in charge of Six Flags. That’s the Dan Snyder I’ve found to be the most fascinating and consistent man on the planet, responsible for the hilarious and/or heinous deeds outlined in the following pages.

The writer's comment about "federally protected lands" refers to Snyder's having cut down trees across a path down to the Potomac River. The Snyders have a mansion above the river, but those nasty trees, the ones that you and I and the American people owned, had aggressively grown themselves to block his view.


8-3: Record Marty Schottenheimer posted in the last 11 games of the 2001 season, his first as head coach of the Washington Redskins. Snyder fired him anyway.

$10: Amount Snyder charged fans for admission to the team’s workouts during the 2000 training camp at Redskins Park in Ashburn. He also charged another $10 to park, thereby becoming the first owner in NFL history to use team practice as a gouging mechanism.


$20: Price Snyder affixed to “Redskins Mania,” the first Redskins scratch lottery ticket in 2009, making it as expensive as any scratcher ever offered by the Virginia Lottery. The campaign flopped.

$25: Price Snyder charged for a special group of standing-room-only tickets at FedExField in 2008. The cheap tickets were linked to the high-priced suites; lobbying watchdogs said Snyder was merely attempting to skirt congressional gift limits. Damning evidence: A team brochure for instructing ticket sales personnel to explain lobbying loopholes to suite customers. Snyder denied the charge. SRO tickets now sell for $152.50, with no mention of lobbying in the sales pitch.



A

“A Long Time”: Thirteen weeks, in Snyder-speak. During training camp in 2000, ESPN asked Snyder how long Norv Turner, who had just coached the Redskins to an NFC East title, would be in his employ. “A long time,” Snyder said. He fired Turner with three games left in the season, despite the Redskins’ winning record.

American Enterprise Institute: Conservative thinktank that summed up Snyder’s football operation as a “leading exemplar of this tendency toward irrationality” in a 2006 report. Kevin Hassett, director of economic policy studies at AEI, cited Snyder for running a “seriously mismanaged” operation. “I used the Redskins because they’re the most frightening example of a team that hadn’t thought through the simple economics of pro football,” Hassett said at the time. “The problems of running a pro football team are right out of the textbooks: With the salary cap, everybody’s got the same amount of money to spend, so let’s see what you’re going to do with your money. The big signing is counter to the economics of pro football. Over time, [Snyder is] spending the same amount of money as everybody else, but he’s spending it irrationally. I think they’re years away from correcting the mistakes they’ve made.”

Andyman: Fake name widely believed to be used by top Redskins officials to post anti-media rants on fan message boards. In 2005, Washington City Paper reported that Karl Swanson, Snyder’s longtime PR chief, had registered on sportsjournalists.com, a website where Andyman often sniped at The Washington Post. Andyman, which could be Pig Latin for Danny M (Snyder’s first name, middle initial) all but disappeared after the report.

B


Bankrupt Airline Peanuts: What Snyder was selling to fans at FedExField. During the 2006 season, vendors offered shelled nuts in royal blue and white 5 oz. bags adorned with the Independence Air logo. Problem: The airline had gone under about a year earlier. The supplier told Washington City Paper that it stopped shipping the airline’s nuts “before Independence Air went out of business.” A spokesman for the Peanut Council told City Paper that to prevent rancidity, the recommended shelf life of a foil bag of out-of-shell peanuts was “about three months.”

C

Casserly, Charley: Redskins general manager who played a lead role in assembling the 1991 Super Bowl championship team. Snyder fired him in 1999 to clear space for Vinny Cerrato, who played lead role in 1994 feature film Kindergarten Ninja.

Conflict of Interest: What Snyder created by employing members of the D.C. media to work for Redskins Broadcast Network, wholly owned by the team. Among the many journalists who worked for Snyder while also reporting on his Redskins for major news outlets: George Michael, Michael Wilbon, Dan Hellie, Wally Bruckner, Andy Pollin, Lindsay Czarniak, Brett Haber.

D

Dan-Jazeera: How Al Koken, a former employee of Snyder-owned sports station WTEM, describes the Redskins owner’s media operation.

Dumb and Dumber: Nickname fans gave Snyder and longtime racquetball/Six Flags investment partner Vinny Cerrato in 2009 season.

Diageo: World’s largest liquor company and a business partner of Snyder’s. They paired up in a massive 2002 sponsorship deal that placed liquor advertising inside FedExField in the sight lines of network cameras, as well as local TV commercials during Redskins games. George Hacker of the Alcohol Policies Project, a program of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, was among the anti-drinking advocates who called the pact an attempted end-run by Snyder and Diageo around longstanding prohibitions on booze advertising. “Airing ads for Smirnoff Ice and Captain Morgan’s Gold during Redskin telecasts trumpets liquor brands and enables Diageo to sidestep the networks’ voluntary ban on hard liquor ads,” Hacker wrote. Snyder and Diageo remain partners.

E

“Emulate Charlie Chan”: What Asian actors trying out for a mascot job at Snyder-run Six Flags were allegedly told during 2008 auditions. After the 2006 firing of Mr. Six, the longtime mascot Snyder deemed “creepy,” the theme park chain’s marketing team hired a Japanese actor to scream “More flags! More fun!” in a vaguely Asian accent in TV commercials. The Chicago chapter of the Japanese American Citizens League, which publicized the “Charlie Chan” angle, was among the advocacy groups critical of the effort. The campaign was canceled very shortly after its debut.

Entertainment Tax: Ten percent fee Prince George’s County collects as part of the deal that put the stadium there. The fee, like all assorted tariffs, had historically been included in the ticket price. After buying the Redskins, Snyder removed those charges from the printed price, moving them to the invoice. The move coincided with the biggest ticket price hike in team history. The biggest losers in Snyder’s removal of fees were street sellers, since “face value” of a ticket was no longer its actual retail price.


“Ewwwww!”: How Barbara Hyde, spokeswoman for the American Society for Microbiology, reacted to last year’s news that Snyder’s vendors were selling beer in the bathrooms. Fans had been alleging that the Redskins were hawking lager in the loo long before a YouTube video surfaced in October 2009. Hyde said that because microbiological bad actors like E. coli hang out in the men’s room, beer vendors shouldn’t.

F

Fan Appreciation Day: Gimmick used in 2006 by Snyder to draw people to FedExField, where he charged $25 to park to watch the team scrimmage and hear an address from Vinny Cerrato. The parking charge was not mentioned in the advertisements the team produced for the event.

Flat-Screen TV: What Snyder said he’d deliver to Laveranues Coles in the 2005 preseason. The gift was part of a threat from the owner to keep the receiver out of football if he didn’t agree to give up a $5 million bonus called for by his contract so that Snyder could trade him. “He said he would send a flat-screen television to my home because I’d be better off watching the games there,” Coles told Sports Illustrated in 2005. “That was his way of saying I’d be sitting for the next couple years until they cut me.”

G

Gates, Bill: Formerly world’s richest man. But he’s not as rich as he would be had he not done business with Snyder. One of Six Flags’ biggest stockholders, Gates had 10,210,600 shares worth about $122 million in early 2006, when Snyder began putting his marketing team in place. They were worth $0—zilch, zip, nada—by the time Snyder was tossed off the board last year. “Bill Gates gives away more money than anybody, and his main cause is malaria,” said a representative of Resilient Capital Management, a hedge fund and Six Flags investor, which sued to have Snyder removed from the company for fiduciary irresponsibility. “That was money that could have gone to save kids from malaria.”


GEICO: Insurance company and major Redskins sponsor. Snyder allowed GEICO to hand out promotional signs at FedExField last season at the same time the team had instructed stadium security to take away home-made signage, much of it involving derogatory comments about Snyder and Cerrato. David Donovan, Snyder’s attorney, said the sign ban was for “safety.”

George, Jeff: Quarterback and one of many Snyder-era free agent busts. Snyder brought George to D.C. on the advice of friend and former Redskins star Sonny Jurgensen. Terry Bradshaw pooh-poohed the George signing on the FOX pregame show: “Both Jurgensen and George have one thing in common—they’ve never won anything,” said the four-time Super Bowl winner.

Guest House: Dwelling on Snyder’s Potomac estate where prospective employees stay overnight during job interviews.

H

Helicopter: Favored method of transportation Snyder used to drop into Redskins practices in 1999 in Frostburg, Md., after taking control of the team.

Herzog, Frank: Beloved former Redskins play-by-play announcer. Herzog was best known for signature call, “Touchdown, Washington Redskins!” He was replaced in Snyder’s Redskins Broadcasting booth in 2004 by Larry Michael, best known for saying “Brought to you by Subway! If you love bacon come into Subway! Eat fresh!” [Welch note: Michael was fired for sexual assault of numerous female Deadskin employees, revealed in the Washington Post series that revealed the "toxic environment" inside the team, the series that led to the NFL investigation after which the Deadskins probably leaked emails by Bruce Allen and Jon Gruden]

Hill, Pat: Down-on-her-luck 73-year-old grandmother—and five-decade Redskins season-ticketholder—who was sued by the Redskins in 2009 because she could not afford to keep up payments on the 10-year, $50,000-plus club seats contract she’d signed. [Welch note: she had lost her money in the 2008 financial collapse]

Hurricane Katrina: Storm that Snyder used as an excuse to get out of the 75-year lease Six Flags had with the city of New Orleans. Snyder took over the company shortly after the storm inundated much of the city; he immediately let it be known he wouldn’t be coming back. “If any company is trying to figure out an exit strategy, they are,” New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said of Snyder’s abandonment. Six Flags never reopened. Snyder rented the park to the Department of Homeland Security. Last year, the city fined Six Flags $3 million for breaking the lease and took over the property.

I

Inside the Red Zone With Vinny Cerrato: WTEM radio show featuring top Snyder aide that debuted early in the 2008 season, shortly after Snyder had bought what was then D.C.’s only sports-radio station. Because of abuse from Skins fans, Cerrato quickly stopped taking calls. He later stopped showing up at all on Mondays after Skins’ losses. The show didn’t return for the 2009 season.

[Note: Vinny Cerrato, mentioned several times, was Dan Snyder's Football Buddy and official fall guy until about 2011, when Snyder replaced him with Bruce Allen. All of the two or three emails that mention Jon Gruden came from the NFL's investigation into the sexual assault cesspool that Snyder was found to have run. Gruden seems to have been hit by Snyder's attempt to hurt Allen, his next fall guy.]

welch
November 20th, 2021, 01:25 PM
Continuation of "Dan Snyder A - Z"

J

Johnson, Brad: Quarterback who in 1999 led the Redskins to their only division title of the last 20 seasons. Benched in favor of Snyder favorite Jeff George a year later. “I think that decision’s made from up top,” Johnson said as George took his place. “I think it’s obvious.”

Junk: How the bond rating service Moody’s rated the notes Snyder sold in a cash-raising scheme in August 2010 for his Dick Clark Productions. The Wall Street Journal reported the lousy rating came from Snyder selling “$165 million in notes in a deal that originally was supposed to be $150 million.”

K

Kennedy, Robert F.: Namesake for the former Redskins stadium—and current “party deck” at FedExField. Tickets to this standing-room only section cost $152.50 and include access to a cigar bar and a Hooters, among other come-ons. Snyder dropped “RFK” from the marketing pitch after Kennedy family announced its displeasure in Washington City Paper.

Knott, Rene: D.C. sportscaster who in 2000 was forced to do live reports from the Redskins Park parking lot while peers filmed inside the practice facility. Knott’s employer, WJLA-TV, was the only local network affiliate that did not pay Snyder to become a “media partner” of the team.

L

Labor Laws: Something Snyder has had trouble with. In 2006, Snyder was sued by a former nanny, Juliette Mendonca, who told a Montgomery County court that when she pointed out she was being shortchanged and asked for proper recompense, Snyder screamed, “I pay you more than my Redskins Park people! I can’t afford to pay you like this!” The court ordered Snyder to pay Mendonca $44,880. In 2008, Snyder faced a lawsuit from a group of FedExField ticket office employees who weren’t being paid for extra hours. The team argued that the Redskins ticket office wasn’t covered by standard overtime laws, citing a 1932 exemption for “amusement and recreation employees” in the federal Fair Labor Standards Act. The exemption, however, was meant to cover lifeguards and greenskeepers, not office employees. Snyder settled the suit with the employees earlier this year. James Rubin, a Montgomery County attorney who represented the ticket sellers, says that he was shocked to learn during the case that Snyder now requires all employees to sign a document waiving their right to sue him “as a condition of employment.”

Losing Record: What every head coach Snyder has hired since buying the team has posted. Only Norv Turner, who Snyder inherited as coach in 1999, put up a winning mark in the Snyder Era, going 17-12 in less than two seasons under the new owner.

M

Maryland Clean Indoor Air Act of 2007: Statewide ban on smoking in bars and restaurants. The law prompted regulators to order Club Macanudo, a cigar bar on FedExField’s Club Level, to either stop selling drinks and food or stop allowing smoking. Snyder stopped food and drink sales for one season. But the establishment reopened as the Montecristo Club in 2009, with the team explaining that the new facility was no longer a bar, but a tobacco shop, and therefore not required to comply with the state code. Unfortunately, a promo film for the tobacco shop posted on the Redskins website featured a bartender pouring a Bud Light from a tap, a clear violation of the law.

Market Segments: How Snyder viewed cancer patients and diabetics during his marketing days. In a 2000 interview for a PBS show called CEO Exchange, Snyder told host Jeff Greenfield that his business depended on coming up with “$5 million niches” that he could sell goods and services to. Asked for examples of his methodology, Snyder said, “We were looking at trend lines. We saw that the aging baby boomer demographics were coming on strong. That meant there’s going to be a lot more diabetic patients, a lot more cancer patients, etc. How do we capture those market segments?”

Mitchell, Brian: Redskins fan favorite and the NFL’s all-time leading kick returner. Mitchell was cut in 2000 to make room for Dallas Cowboys star Deion Sanders.

“More than 200,000”: Number of names that Snyder claims are on the waiting list for Redskins season tickets. So why were the Redskins reduced to putting ads on the sides of Metrobuses this season?

N

Nepotism: Plague that has run rampant at Redskins Park since Snyder took over. Other than Jim Zorn, every head coach he’s hired has put family members on the payroll. Examples: Marty, Brian and Kurt Schottenheimer; Steve Spurrier senior and junior.; Joe and Coy Gibbs; Mike and Kyle Shanahan. Coordinators got in the mix, too: For the 2006-2007 seasons, Offensive Coordinator Al Saunders got son Bob a job, while Defensive Coordinator Gregg Williams brought in son Blake. Conversely, the team cut both punter Matt Turk and long snapper/brother Dan Turk after Dan made a bad snap on a field goal attempt in a 1999 playoff game.

NFL’s Digital Media Committee: What Snyder was named to head in 2008, despite his bizarre refusal to install a hi-def screen for replays. For years, fans had mocked the video screens at FedExField as “MiniTrons” and “Lite Brites.” But Snyder spokesman Karl Swanson maintained that the team couldn’t give them what they wanted because FedExField “was wired for analog” and therefore couldn’t accommodate digital screens. In 2009, Paul McCartney and U2 both performed concerts at stadium, bringing their hi-def screens that somehow worked when plugged in. As of this year, FedExField has its own hi-def system.

O

Official Mattress of Six Flags: Anatomic Global. Over time, Snyder had shown his sponsorship mania by inking deals that gave Six Flags an official mayonnaise and the Redskins an official carpet installer. In June 2009, weeks after the theme park chain filed for bankruptcy, Snyder signed a deal for an official mattress. In the few months before his removal from the board, Snyder actually started selling the mattresses at his theme parks ($1,299 for a queen size).

P

Pentagon Flag Hat: A Redskins cap sold for profit by Snyder to “commemorate September 11” in time for the fifth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. Ads boasted that the $23.99 caps, really just black Redskins hats with a red, white, and blue Pentagon sewn on the side, were “expected to be worn by the Redskins coaches.” No other NFL team put 9/11 commemorative products for sale during the 2006 season, for profit or otherwise. Snyder had previously added a $4 “security surcharge” to the ticket prices soon after the attacks. [Call this a personal gripe. My son joined the Army National Guard and met my daughter-in-law who had joined the Regular Army because each wanted to do something after September 11. Neither were in uniform to make money, although daughter-in-law got great pre-natal, birthing, and post-natal care at Darnall, the medical center at Ft. Hood. To repeat, neither joined to make a million or for various patches or pats on the back. That was a Snyder thing]

R

Redskins Extra Points MasterCard: The only credit card Snyder told fans he’d accept for season ticket payments for the 2005 season. He withdrew the demand following a threatened ticketholder revolt and after MasterCard told the Redskins to drop it.

Redskins Unfiltered: Feature on Redskins.com designed to “offer fans an a la carte menu of information,” as Snyder told The New York Times in 2006. In practice, Unfiltered was mainly used to rebut everything written about the team by The Washington Post. Immediately after the Post ran a story that mentioned players eating “fast food” at Redskins Park, for example, Snyder staffer Larry Michael produced a long video in which team employees testified that Baja Fresh was NOT fast food. Unfiltered came back to haunt management when players used its video as evidence in a union grievance over “contact drills” during voluntary workouts. “You know how we caught them?” said NFLPA chief Gene Upshaw. “We saw it on their Web site.”

“Ringing Endorsement”: What Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen gave ex-Broncos coach Mike Shanahan during private conversations with Snyder last year. Bowlen had fired Shanahan after the 2008 season with three years remaining on a massive contract. With Bowlen’s blessing, Snyder hired Shanahan, thereby taking Bowlen off the hook for about $7 million of the money that was still owed on his contract.

Rodgers, Pepper: FedEx official whom Snyder almost made Redskins head coach. Snyder knew he wanted to fire Norv Turner in the middle of the 2000 season, but he didn’t have anybody to put in charge. So he contemplated Rodgers, 69, who had never coached in the NFL and whose last coaching stint was with the Memphis Mad Dogs of the CFL. Rodgers’ main qualification for the Redskins job was that, after FedEx became a Redskins sponsor, he watched games with Snyder in the owner’s box and told stories about coaching John Riggins at the University of Kansas.

Robiskie, Terry: Early Snyder Yes Man. After taking over for Norv Turner as head coach in the middle of the 2000 season, Robiskie confessed he would play Jeff George over Brad Johnson just because that’s what the owner wanted. “Mr. Snyder owns the football team,” Robiskie declared after his first practice as head coach. “If I wanted to change my desk, I’m going to call him and say I want to change my desk. If I want to change quarterbacks, I’m going to call him and say, ‘What do you think of me changing quarterbacks?’ It’s his football team.”

S

Safety: Bogus excuse used to get a ban on pedestrian traffic into FedExField on game days in 2000. After a class action lawsuit alleged that the ban was really intended to increase parking revenues at the stadium, the ban was overturned. In 2007, Snyder again cited safety to get offsite parking banned by the town council in Agawam, Mass., home of Six Flags New England. Parking rates at the theme park tripled after his 2005 takeover of Six Flags. When the Agawam council learned about the earlier pedestrian-safety controversy at FedEx, it undid the ban.

Sanders, Deion: Crown jewel of the fantasy football team Snyder put together during his first offseason as owner, which also included Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George and Adrian Murrell. Snyder signed Sanders to a seven-year, $56 million contract with an $8 million signing bonus. After a debacle of a 2000 season for the team and himself, Sanders refused to report to the Redskins in 2001—but declined to return any of his bonus money.

“Several Million Dollars”: Amount Snyder was paid by StubHub as part of the Redskins’ 2008 deal with the online ticket clearinghouse, according to StubHub spokesman Sean Pate. At the time, Snyder had been taking tickets away from season ticketholders for violating team’s policy against reselling tickets. The Washington Times reported that the team even repossessed six tickets from the Braloves, a D.C. family that had had them “since the 1940s,” after Redskins detectives found that they’d put some tickets up for sale on eBay.

Slamming: The illegal practice of switching a customer’s telephone service without authorization. Florida authorities fined Snyder’s pre-Redskins outfit, Snyder Communications, $3.1 million in 2001 after investigators uncovered more slamming in its offices than you’d find stagefront at a Limp Bizkit show.

Smear Job: Action that Marvin Demoff, agent for Gregg Williams, accused Redskins of taking to pre-empt fan unhappiness over Snyder’s decision not to hire Williams. A four-year employee of Snyder’s, Williams was a fan favorite. But the owner reportedly wanted to hire veteran coach Jim Fassel instead. Demoff pointed out that three D.C. media operations reported at about the same time that “team sources” were saying Williams wasn’t fit to be head coach because he had been “disrespectful” to retiring coach Joe Gibbs. The alleged slight occurred when Williams unilaterally called the “Missing Man Formation” as a tribute to Sean Taylor after his death. Outcry prevented the team from hiring Fassel, though Williams didn’t get the job, either.

Smith, Bruce, Rear End Of: The only thing fans who bought the first run of Snyder’s Dream Seats had a great look at. Before the 2000 season, Snyder installed 1,488 field level seats at FedExField. To that point in football history, the front rows were regarded as the worst vantage point in a stadium, since the players on the sideline block the view, and were priced accordingly. Snyder charged $3,000 per Dream Seat.

Sponsored Sponsors: A technique created by the Redskins Broadcast Network in the Snyder era to cram in all the advertising sold on Redskins radio broadcasts. No segment of a Skins game goes unsponsored, leading to fabulous listening moments such as: “The GMRI scoreboard brought to you by McDonald’s.”

“Sports Jerk of the Year”: Award conferred upon Snyder in 2001 in cartoon strip “Tank McNamara.”

U

Unobstructed View: What Snyder wanted of the Potomac River from the back of his Montgomery County home. To accomplish this, he cut down trees protected by the National Park Service. The episode marked one of the rare times Snyder got crisis PR help. He retained Mike Sitrick, who helped with damage control for the Michael Jackson family after the pop star’s death and Paris Hilton after one of her arrests.

V

Vanilla: Flavor of ice cream that Snyder left to thaw in defensive coordinator Mike Nolan’s office TWICE in one season to let the coach know the owner felt his schemes were simplistic, or vanilla. John Feinstein wrote that Snyder’s second delivery, after a loss to Dallas, consisted of “three giant canisters of melting 31 Flavors ice cream” and a note that said “I do not like vanilla.”

W

Weasel Stew: Menu item at the Princess Restaurant in Frostburg, Md., conceived in 2000 after the Redskins broke their training-camp lease with the local college. Jack Kent Cooke and Maryland lawmakers had worked out a 10-year, $331,000-per-year deal, designed to bring tourist dollars to western Maryland, as part of the agreement that brought the Redskins to Prince George’s County. Shortly after buying the team, Snyder defaulted on the deal so he could hold training camp at Redskins Park, where he charged $10 admission and $10 parking. In 2001, Snyder paid the school $750,000 to settle the matter. The school used the money to establish an endowment named for Cooke.

Z

Zorn: Verb meaning to humiliate an employee into quitting so the employer can avoid paying severance. The word was brought into the lexicon early in the 2009 season, after Snyder engineered a public emasculation of head coach Jim Zorn. Zorn’s play-calling duties were handed to consultant Sherm Lewis, who was working as a bingo caller at retirement communities in Michigan when Snyder hired him. At the time, Zorn had a year and $2.4 million remaining on his contract. He didn’t quit.

Chuck Naill
November 21st, 2021, 06:47 AM
64973

Good example of "whataboutthisism". Using your preferences, Gruden's emails should have been overlooked because other's emails have been overlooked? There are people who believe that judging is wrong because no one is perfect.

There are two Greek words for judgement, if I remember. One is condemnation and one is an objective appraisal. Such an approach would appraise Gruden and Clinton indepently. Otherwise you have no basis and everyone would be reduced to doing what was right in their own mind. Can you appreciate what a place this would become if we all acted as you suggest?

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 07:07 AM
A meme points out hypocrisy.
Chuck claims "whataboutism" (a red herring that deflects from the point and does not address whether or not there is hypocrisy).
Chuck claims something about "two greek words", and begins with a latin based word (condemnation); with the second presumably somewhere in: "one is an objective appraisal..."

I don't think you remember anything very well, Chuck.

Can you imagine what a place this would become if we all acted as you do?

Here are a couple more memes:

65086

65087

TSherbs
November 21st, 2021, 07:42 AM
A meme points out hypocrisy.


Hardly. Memes point out very little. They're passed around the internet like little "gotcha" jabs, and they masquerade as insight.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

TSherbs
November 21st, 2021, 07:54 AM
@welch that dude went to a lot of effort to compile that encyclopedia of offenses!

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Chuck Naill
November 21st, 2021, 08:04 AM
If you're going to quote Mr. Sowell, at least provide a complete quote. Here is the remainder and context, "They want villains to hate and heroes to cheer - and they don't want explanations that fail to give them that.”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/30/random-thoughts-12209705/

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 01:24 PM
Yes Chuck, but partial or incomplete you still do not comprehend the quote. Who do you think the "they" is that Mr. Sowell is referring to?

The answer may be found in your bathroom mirror.

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 01:29 PM
A meme points out hypocrisy.


Hardly. Memes point out very little. They're passed around the internet like little "gotcha" jabs, and they masquerade as insight.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Memes can do many things. Some simply prompt a giggle, like the one with the "elf on a shelf" legs sticking out of a baby Yoda's mouth (a reference to an episode of The Mandalorian. Some are more thought provoking. 21st century internet aphorisms, if you will. The do require a modicum of wit to understand, like a Twain quote; because they tend to center on satire or sarcasm, and usually point out hypocrisy (or "whataboutism", as Chuck calls it).

Chuck Naill
November 21st, 2021, 01:34 PM
Yes Chuck, but partial or incomplete you still do not comprehend the quote. Who do you think the "they" is that Mr. Sowell is referring to?

The answer may be found in your bathroom mirror.
He’s referring to people like you. That’s pretty obvious.

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 01:41 PM
lol, thanks for the chuckle, Chuck.

TSherbs
November 21st, 2021, 01:45 PM
... Some are more thought provoking. 21st century internet aphorisms, if you will.

That's too generous. I've never seen one that I am impressed by. A giggle, sure. But giggles aren't much, either.

I have sent exactly one meme, once, to three friends (for its humor). But for wisdom? No. I'm just not impressed by thumbnail approaches to wisdom.


Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Chuck Naill
November 21st, 2021, 04:47 PM
I’d probably lay off quoting Mr. Sowell.

welch
November 21st, 2021, 05:25 PM
@welch that dude went to a lot of effort to compile that encyclopedia of offenses!

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

The Story is about Dan Snyder, who probably leaked the emails to or from Bruce Allen that Chuckie sent. Or Tanya Snyder did it. Thought I'd fill in the background, since only Kaz and I are likely to know why Redskin / Deadskin fans were not surprised -- horrified but not surprised -- when the Washington Post printed results of its investigation of the rape culture, or sex-cesspool, that Snyder operates as the Redskins / Washington Team of Football (WTF). The Gruden emails deserve a footnote in the much larger story of how Snyder destroyed the Redskins and built an organization dedicated to providing him with videos of the Redskin cheerleaders nude, or female employees he could sexually assault, or his media chief, Larry Michael, could assault, or his assistant general managers could grab, or etc etc.

The story is about Snyder, not Gruden. Maybe Gruden's lawsuit will force the NFL to release the other 649,998 emails that the NFL's investigation found.

The story I quoted, from a decade ago, just compiled some of the reasons Redskin fans hated Dan and Tanya Snyder back then. We didn't know the half of it.

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 05:33 PM
... Some are more thought provoking. 21st century internet aphorisms, if you will.

That's too generous. I've never seen one that I am impressed by. A giggle, sure. But giggles aren't much, either.

I have sent exactly one meme, once, to three friends (for its humor). But for wisdom? No. I'm just not impressed by thumbnail approaches to wisdom.


Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Well I also noted that they required a modicum of wit, so I'm not surprised. Could be that your political views are on the receiving end, so your dislike isn't surprising either.

Your critique is fallacious though. An opinion, unsubstantiated, laced with condescension. I'd ask you to offer more of substance, but we already know that just turns into "I don't want to discuss this..." as you trundle off to shit in someone's for sale thread.

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 05:35 PM
I’d probably lay off quoting Mr. Sowell.

Why? I'm the only one of us who understands him. If you did (as you like to claim), you wouldn't be such a "woke" internet hyena.

Chuck Naill
November 21st, 2021, 05:39 PM
Well, your last attempt didn’t go as expected did it? Ha ha

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 05:55 PM
You're right. I thought you would understand Sowell. You didn't. Ha ha

*yawn*

Chuck Naill
November 21st, 2021, 06:25 PM
Lol! You completely misquoted the man. He obviously was referring to people like you who need a hero

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 06:31 PM
Chuck, you don’t understand the quote or the definition of “misquote”.

Dear god you are a bore.

*yawn*

Chuck Naill
November 21st, 2021, 07:04 PM
Please stop. You’re embarrassing yourself….😅😅😅

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 07:19 PM
Chuck, I see you have made it to your bathroom mirror. Now contemplate the Sowell quote.

Chuck Naill
November 21st, 2021, 08:23 PM
Just stop misquoting Mr. Sowell . You’ve done it a couple of times before. He deserves better .

dneal
November 21st, 2021, 08:35 PM
Chuck, I can’t be responsible for your lack of comprehension. Claim I “misquote” all you like, if it makes you happy. It troubles me not in the least.

Chuck Naill
November 22nd, 2021, 05:35 AM
Chuck, I can’t be responsible for your lack of comprehension. Claim I “misquote” all you like, if it makes you happy. It troubles me not in the least.

It must since you keep on responding. It should be obvious to anyone reading your post you chose to provide an incomplete quote by Mr. Sowell. I provided both a complete quote as well as the article for context. That article does not support your reason for posting. You've done this before.

dneal
November 22nd, 2021, 07:02 AM
"Misquoting" is when you change the meaning of a quote by omitting key portions. Emerson's "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" is often used as an argument against [logical] consistency. That's incorrect, and misquoting. What Emerson was saying is that it's ok to change your mind in lieu of new information, and consistency for consistency's sake is a "hobgoblin" of little minds.

Want a different example? How about your misquoting of Twain (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/35520-Restoring-Fortitude?p=341617&viewfull=1#post341617), in what I'm sure you believed was a clever rebuttal. You missed the sarcasm of America's most famed satirist (which in your case is not surprising), and thought it meant something completely different. I pointed that out to you two posts later, and you ran away (again, not surprising).

The portion of the Sowell quote I shared is:


"The reason so many people misunderstand so many issues is not that these issues are so complex, but that people do not want a factual or analytical explanation that leaves them emotionally unsatisfied."

but you think omitting the last sentence...:


"They want villains to hate and heroes to cheer — and they don’t want explanations that do not give them that."

...changes it. It doesn't. It is additive. It is a reiteration. It is redundant, and unnecessary. The point expressed is not changed with or without the last sentence.

It perhaps shines a light on the reasons you and your fellow wokenistas grab your rhetorical torches and pitchforks and storm this section of the forum. Look at the "why can't Trump folks believe he lost" thread. It is much more emotionally satisfying for you and yours like to ignore an objective answer to the question. To assign motive for emotional satisfaction.

Sowell was commenting on a principle I also cite Mark Twain about.


We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking.

That quote (like all quotes) is taken "out of context".

Twain continues:


And out of it we get an aggregation which we consider a boon. Its name is public opinion. It is held in reverence. Some think it the voice of God.

Does that change Twain's first sentence? Does that negate the notion of emotion overriding reason? Of course not.

Sowell (and Twain) are talking about people like you.

Thus endeth the lesson.

QED

Chuck Naill
November 22nd, 2021, 07:10 AM
"Misquoting" is when you change the meaning of a quote by omitting key portions. Emerson's "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" is often used as an argument against [logical] consistency. That's incorrect, and misquoting. What Emerson was saying is that it's ok to change your mind in lieu of new information, and consistency for consistency's sake is a "hobgoblin" of little minds.

Want a different example? How about your misquoting of Twain (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/35520-Restoring-Fortitude?p=341617&viewfull=1#post341617), in what I'm sure you believed was a clever rebuttal. You missed the sarcasm of America's most famed satirist (which in your case is not surprising), and thought it meant something completely different. I pointed that out to you two posts later, and you ran away (again, not surprising).

The portion of the Sowell quote I shared is:



but you think omitting the last sentence...:


"They want villains to hate and heroes to cheer — and they don’t want explanations that do not give them that."

...changes it. It doesn't. It is additive. It is a reiteration. It is redundant, and unnecessary. The point expressed is not changed with or without the last sentence.

It perhaps shines a light on the reasons you and your fellow wokenistas grab your rhetorical torches and pitchforks and storm this section of the forum. Look at the "why can't Trump folks believe he lost" thread. It is much more emotionally satisfying for you and yours like to ignore an objective answer to the question. To assign motive for emotional satisfaction.

Sowell was commenting on a principle I also cite Mark Twain about.


We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking.

That quote (like all quotes) is taken "out of context".

Twain continues:


And out of it we get an aggregation which we consider a boon. Its name is public opinion. It is held in reverence. Some think it the voice of God.

Does that change Twain's first sentence? Does that negate the notion of emotion overriding reason? Of course not.

Sowell (and Twain) are talking about people like you.

Thus endeth the lesson.

QED

For all your efforts, you misquoted him. Had you included the sentence you chose to omit, it would have outed you, since you are that way. Feel welcomed to quote him again and I'll continue to fact check @dneal.

The time you did it before, he was advocating vaccines. We all know your position on that.

dneal
November 22nd, 2021, 07:20 AM
I hope you are emotionally satisfied with your "rebuttal", for Sowell's sake.

Chuck Naill
November 22nd, 2021, 07:34 AM
I hope you are emotionally satisfied with your "rebuttal", for Sowell's sake.

Yes, I have been reading him for decades and see no need to have him drug through the mud by someone seeking to make points he never did intend. Carry on. Hope you read your misquoting again...LOL!!

dneal
November 22nd, 2021, 07:51 AM
The overwhelming majority of your posts regarding race indicate that if you have read him, you never understood him.

Chuck Naill
November 22nd, 2021, 08:17 AM
The overwhelming majority of your posts regarding race indicate that if you have read him, you never understood him.

Please stop while you're ahead. I can tell this new republican/conservative thing is new for you. I would recommend you choose to vote next time.

dneal
November 22nd, 2021, 09:12 AM
Please stop while you're ahead.

Unsurprisingly, you have chosen the wrong figure of speech; but thanks for inadvertently admitting your loss.

Chuck Naill
November 22nd, 2021, 09:25 AM
Please stop while you're ahead.

Unsurprisingly, you have chosen the wrong figure of speech; but thanks for inadvertently admitting your loss.

You always know when the opponent begins grasping at grammer. they've admitted defeat. Carry on.

dneal
November 22nd, 2021, 10:40 AM
Note to self - Add grammar to the list of things Chuck doesn’t know the meaning of.

Chuck Naill
November 22nd, 2021, 11:18 AM
Did you get out of elementary school?

dneal
November 22nd, 2021, 02:30 PM
More ad hominem. Is that all you have Chuck? Because all that's worth is more memes.

65153

Chuck Naill
November 22nd, 2021, 03:49 PM
You sure know how to post photos, @dneal. Ironically, you didn't vote for Trump. You didn't get a vaccine. I suspect you don't mask or distance. Is there anything you do except troll? Asking for a friend.

dneal
November 22nd, 2021, 04:35 PM
Huh? I think I heard a monkey chattering, but all I smell is monkey-shit.

There he is!!! Chuckles the monkey! hoo hoo, haa haa!

See Chuck, that sort of thing that you are so fond of doesn't get anywhere. It just ruins the forum.

But please tell me again some nonsense about voting. Oooh, throw in the vaccine! A little Sowell thing for good measure! Add some emoticons too!!!

*yawn*

You can't troll me because you're no good at it and I don't care enough. Maybe consider what you want this forum to be. Reasonable discourse, or juvenile nonsense. I'm capable of either (and both even).

Until then, here's another meme for you:

65165

Chip
November 26th, 2021, 10:20 PM
You're pretty far gone.

Shut down your computer.

Get help.

dneal
November 27th, 2021, 08:23 AM
I've watched many "Chips" come and go. I'm not inclined to take advice from newbie rabble-rousers.

Thanks for your input though.

Chip
November 27th, 2021, 12:28 PM
You and kazoo are the only rabble i've managed to rouse. :dirol:

dneal
November 27th, 2021, 01:06 PM
meh… you overestimate your arousal potential. Go back a few pages in your DSM. “Narcissist” comes before “psychopath”.

724Seney
November 27th, 2021, 01:10 PM
The Lion and the Donkey

The donkey told the tiger, "The grass is blue."

The tiger replied, "No, the grass is green ."

The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion.

As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn't it true that the grass is blue?"

The lion replied: "If you believe it is true, the grass is blue."

The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him."

The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence."

The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ′′The grass is blue, the grass is blue..."

The tiger asked the lion, "Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?"

The lion replied, ′′You've known and seen the grass is green."

The tiger asked, ′′So why do you punish me?"

The lion replied, "That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!"

The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand. Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t.

When IGNORANCE SCREAMS, intelligence moves on.

Chip
November 27th, 2021, 09:58 PM
Go back a few pages in your DSM. “Narcissist” comes before “psychopath”.

Is wanker in there?

dneal
November 28th, 2021, 05:16 AM
Go back a few pages in your DSM. “Narcissist” comes before “psychopath”.

Is wanker in there?

Dunno. You’re the expert.

Chuck Naill
November 28th, 2021, 06:19 AM
Wow, this is going no where. :)

Chip
November 28th, 2021, 02:15 PM
Moving on.

https://i.imgur.com/8gAK0rJ.jpg