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dneal
October 14th, 2021, 01:24 PM
I like Dan Crenshaw. He says a lot of things I agree with, and a lot of things I don't. Mainly, I like that he's reasonable. He doesn't appear to me to be ruled by his emotions, partisanship, lobbyists, or any of the other things we see from a lot of politicians. It's not because he's a Republican, and I can say the same thing about Tulsi Gabbard or Seth Moulton (both Democrats) - and a few others. I think they're the types of folks we need in government.

He wrote a piece for the Washington Examiner (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/faith-freedom-self-reliance/restoring-fortitude?fbclid=IwAR1p2b_3OcK9ifIOGTDuXy61tLJG8Vd hpIyE9bQb4ekz86xwAUBPic5RG7Q ) recently, and I think it generally lays out the two competing philosophical viewpoints between the D's and R's of today's political environment. I tend to agree with Rep. Crenshaw's views espoused below.

Thoughts?



OCTOBER 11, 2021 05:38 PM
REP. DAN CRENSHAW

Freedom is a worthwhile goal, most would agree. Crucially and more specifically, freedom with responsibility is a worthwhile goal. A libertine society where anything goes and consequences are ignored is less American-style freedom and more a scene from an antifa-led autonomous zone. The American founding is based on ordered liberty. Our sense of liberty is based on the idea that was so well communicated by St. John Paul II: “Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought.”

Once you start talking about the need for responsibility as a critical part of freedom, you lose some people. Responsibility is hard. If freedom means charting your own way, taking care of yourself, and living with the consequences of your actions, then freedom is indeed risky. With the possibility of great reward comes great risk, after all.

Many people are simply not up for the challenge of responsibility and therefore true freedom. This is why it is so easy for politicians like Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders to manipulate the meaning of the word, and claim that you cannot be “free” unless you are given affordable housing, healthcare, and a decent wage. According to Sanders, to be free is to be able to live off of the services of others.

Thus, the promise of Utopian socialism: Your basic needs will be met, and you can therefore pursue your dreams. Who meets these basic needs, and how are they incentivized to do so? Socialists never really figured that one out. Many millions died as a result.

Personal responsibility is more than just a conservative value, it is a foundation for a free society. If you are not responsible for yourself or your actions, then by definition you believe someone else must be responsible for you — and you will demand of your politicians that other, more productive people are forced to take on that additional responsibility so that you may take on less and less. Some might even label this “social justice.”

And if personal responsibility is a critical prerequisite for freedom, then fortitude is a critical prerequisite for personal responsibility. Courage, strength, resilience — all are increasingly missing from a society that now celebrates victimhood as a virtue. Victimhood has become so celebrated, in fact, that famous and privileged people (looking at you, Jussie Smollett and Elizabeth Warren) are willing to lie about being victims. Not exactly the Greatest Generation anymore.

It is time to restore fortitude in citizens before it is too late. At present, our country is strong and resilient despite the doomsday predictions of many. Truthfully, this is still the best place to be in the world, with an abundance of strong people: men willing to fight our wars, entrepreneurs willing to invest and create jobs, inventors working on the next breakthrough, and families willing to raise their children to be strong and successful. Much of this is based on a sense of duty that is deeply imbued in the American spirit, the duty to be better than you were yesterday, the duty to pursue challenge, the duty to contribute. But much of it is also due to incentives and the simple knowledge that your hard work will indeed pay off.

But what if it didn’t pay off?

Without incentives, our most productive people, our strongest people, will see less and less point to their hard work. The infamous Soviet communist quote comes to mind: “As long as they keep pretending to pay us, we will keep pretending to work!” A free society cannot last long with an increasing number of free-riders and a decreasing number of productive people. As Ben Shapiro recently quipped : “America is faced with a choice. Do we acknowledge what we are — the greatest power in world history, complete with the obligation to defend our interests — or do we sink into a warm bath, eat ourselves into morbid obesity with deficits and welfare spending, and wait for China?”

Without fortitude, without a sense of duty to be better, without a deep sense of responsibility, more and more people will choose the easier path. The easy path is easy because it is short and leads nowhere but down. It is a quick trip to dependency and free ice cream. But you can’t get out easily once you’ve descended.

If America is to maintain its place as the shining city on the hill, then citizens must start taking the harder path. This path is hard because it leads up. It is treacherous, and you may fall down at times. You must learn from your hardships here. There is no one to navigate it for you. You must take control of the destination yourself. It is scary, but it is worth it, and there is more than just riches on this path — there is meaning.

Only a strong person can walk this path. Freedom is scary, and responsibility is even scarier. It takes strength and courage to compete against others in a free society and chart your own destiny. Conservative leaders breathlessly shout of their fight for freedom, "Freedom from government overreach." But this is incomplete. It’s time we stopped limiting ourselves to demanding freedom from government control and begin demanding of the citizen that which is a foundation of freedom: fortitude.

Chip
October 14th, 2021, 01:41 PM
What utter self-ennobling crap.

"Socialists never really figured that one out. Many millions died as a result." Specifically in Russia? China? Cambodia?

What about the further millions who've died as a result of colonialism, fascism, and capitalism? Slavery: not a problem?

This "strong person– freedom is scary" guff is attractive only to the foolish, powerless, resentful, and envious.

kazoolaw
October 14th, 2021, 02:40 PM
What utter self-ennobling crap.

"Socialists never really figured that one out. Many millions died as a result." Specifically in Russia? China? Cambodia?

What about the further millions who've died as a result of colonialism, fascism, and capitalism? Slavery: not a problem?

This "strong person– freedom is scary" guff is attractive only to the foolish, powerless, resentful, and envious.

Yes to all 3: Russia (think Stalin's Famine), China (think Great Leap Forward), Cambodiav(think Killing Fields). Millions dead in each.

There you go again with whataboutism. Can't rebut? Change the subject. Stay focused Chip.

Want to write about colonialism, fascism, or slavery? Go ahead. Which of those are being actively promoted in the US now? I'll wait.

I can see why fortitude would be a foreign concept to you, as opposed to the hit-and-run comments you try to pass as analysis.

I'm thinking Crenshaw's on the right track.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 14th, 2021, 03:32 PM
There is a real danger - nay, it's actually happening in these threads -that the flag of 'whataboutism' is driven up the pole in response to any examples used in a discussion. Not all examples are a means to deflection.




Freedom is a worthwhile goal, most would agree. Crucially and more specifically, freedom with responsibility is a worthwhile goal. A libertine society where anything goes and consequences are ignored is less American-style freedom and more a scene from an antifa-led autonomous zone. The American founding is based on ordered liberty. Our sense of liberty is based on the idea that was so well communicated by St. John Paul II: “Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought.”

And yet this freedom without responsibility is the currently projected image of freedom in the US, and it is being promoted by the average Joe in the street and not specifically or exclusively antifa.

I'm all for fortitude, and it's the one thing I agree upon from that op piece. Much of the rest is the usual nationalistic chest-thumpery and, as Chip put, self-ennobling crap.

Chuck Naill
October 14th, 2021, 03:50 PM
I’m thinking of examples of fortitude like Martin Luther King, JR. and Joseph Biden.

Perhaps he doesn’t, but I see lots of people overcoming great pain and set backs to survive .
And, as MLK said, you don’t tell a bootless man to pull himself up by his boot straps .

If all it took was being responsible and having fortitude for success, we might not be struggling as a nation to work for a common purpose. There is a place to assist others. Two lessons from Jesus some to mind , the man who was befriended by the man from Samara, and the feeding of the 5000. He also responded to a thief while being crucified.

dneal
October 14th, 2021, 05:38 PM
Some takeaways I wasn't expecting.

It really breaks down to one taking responsibility for oneself, or wanting the government to do it. The latter seems lazy and weak.

I'm reminded of Thomas Sowell's question: "What exactly is your fair share of what someone else has worked for?"

Empty_of_Clouds
October 14th, 2021, 07:14 PM
In my opinion, it's not an either/or situation. There are areas where I would expect people to take personal responsibility, and there are other areas where I expect the government to step up. How you decide which bucket to place things in is the tricky bit.

dneal
October 14th, 2021, 08:49 PM
Of course there are nuances involved, and levels of complexity; but they’re still two competing political philosophies. That creates a dichotomy.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 14th, 2021, 09:55 PM
So what? As a society we need to embrace both. Choosing one or the other won't work.

kazoolaw
October 14th, 2021, 10:43 PM
There is a real danger - nay, it's actually happening in these threads -that the flag of 'whataboutism' is driven up the pole in response to any examples used in a discussion. Not all examples are a means to deflection.

* * *

And yet this freedom without responsibility is the currently projected image of freedom in the US, and it is being promoted by the average Joe in the street and not specifically or exclusively antifa.

I'm all for fortitude, and it's the one thing I agree upon from that op piece. Much of the rest is the usual nationalistic chest-thumpery and, as Chip put, self-ennobling crap.

Whataboutism may be overused, or even misused, but when a response begins with "What about..." the temptation to tweak the speaker was too much to resist.

I'm curious about the source of your perspective of the average Joe on the street, and who you think the "average" American Joe is. That's not my perception of the vast majority of the Joes I rub elbows with, but would like to hear more from you.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 15th, 2021, 12:00 AM
You will have to bear in mind that I am not living in the US, and that my opinion is driven by whatever reportage crosses my line of sight.

My impression right now is that Americans are increasingly using the concept of freedom to justify acting in way that serves themselves but not the good of society. This isn't restricted to specific activist groups but is apparent among regular folks as evidenced by what I have to assume are random street interviews of members of the public. In the current climate this is noticeably centred around the average person holding the belief that they are an expert risk assessor, especially in subject areas they know bugger all about and in which no amount of Google 'research' is going to change.

This view of Americans may well be wildly wrong or heavily biased because I cannot be sure that the information I've seen/read/heard faithfully draws that picture. Also, this phenomenon is not only seen in the US, but it may be fair to say that elsewhere in the world people may be influenced by this view of American life.

dneal
October 15th, 2021, 05:26 AM
So what? As a society we need to embrace both. Choosing one or the other won't work.

So what? You tell me. You brought it up.

Envision if you will, a spectrum with finite ends. Opposing positions along a continuum. Recognizing the ends does not limit you to them. There's still a whole range in the middle.

Are you done with the navel gazing? Is there some other pedantic point you would like to argue?

Chuck Naill
October 15th, 2021, 05:50 AM
There is a myth that exists for some Americans. That is, their success was the result of their hard work and effort. The fact is, everyone is not equal in opportunity, skill set, talent, health, intellgence, family support, and generational wealth. Thomas Sowell was mentioned, he had a very difficult beginning, but the military (a tax payer supproted system) and his academic ability propelled him forward. So, can we say he is a self made man? I don't and I doubt he would either. What if Sowell lacked intellegence? Would we have ever heard of him?

It is in every American citizens interest to have healthcare and that heathcare be available to all. We've seen the benefit of free vaccines and testing for those who were willing to use them. This is good example of why we need government and the infrastructure in place.

Americans benefit when children have good schools, learn skills, and have upward mobility. This allows for generational wealth to build and ensure the next generation does not require social benefits.

We overgeneralise in these types of conversations. The fact is, most recipients are happy and thankful to have received support from the American tax payer.

I could brag that I was a self made person because I had little parental involvement or encouragement. I begin my career as a meat cutter, later sales, and then landed a very good job against all odds because a man saw something and believed in me. I didn't finish my degree until I was 52. However, along the way, there were mentors, but more often there were people that I noticed and decided to emulate. Americans need more mentors and models to follow. A friend said he noticed a middle class family and wanted to be like them. He went to the military and gained tuition for college. It has not been easy for him, but he is highly succesful today. Besides his own children, he and his wife have adopted three children. He would be the last person to suggest he is a self made man.

If I have to pay taxes, I would rather help a child get a leg up than support a war in the Middle East.

Older American men who complain and yearn for the good old day are a scourge. They have nothing to offer, but anger. They drive $80k retirement pickups they cannot back into a space. They feel entitled. What is sad, they could mentor someone and change the world.

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 10:33 AM
Are you done with the navel gazing? Is there some other pedantic point you would like to argue?

Still being the dick, I see.

You base your argument on a dichotomy and then call it "pedantic" and "navel gazing" to point out the limitations of argument via dichotomy? Nice work, there.

How about you just get smarter? You posted a stupid, jingoistic column full of false assumptions, overgeneralizations, and false dichotomies. You asked for comments and got answers. We could go over every line and show you the flaws, but it ain't worth the time cuz no one really cares enough, and you slander those who actually give you a sincere reply (that you don't like).

Nothin' new this week.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 10:43 AM
There is a myth that exists for some Americans. That is, their success was the result of their hard work and effort. The fact is, everyone is not equal in opportunity, skill set, talent, health, intellgence, family support, and generational wealth. Thomas Sowell was mentioned, he had a very difficult beginning, but the military (a tax payer supproted system) and his academic ability propelled him forward. So, can we say he is a self made man? I don't and I doubt he would either. What if Sowell lacked intellegence? Would we have ever heard of him?

It is in every American citizens interest to have healthcare and that heathcare be available to all. We've seen the benefit of free vaccines and testing for those who were willing to use them. This is good example of why we need government and the infrastructure in place.

Americans benefit when children have good schools, learn skills, and have upward mobility. This allows for generational wealth to build and ensure the next generation does not require social benefits.

We overgeneralise in these types of conversations. The fact is, most recipients are happy and thankful to have received support from the American tax payer.

I could brag that I was a self made person because I had little parental involvement or encouragement. I begin my career as a meat cutter, later sales, and then landed a very good job against all odds because a man saw something and believed in me. I didn't finish my degree until I was 52. However, along the way, there were mentors, but more often there were people that I noticed and decided to emulate. Americans need more mentors and models to follow. A friend said he noticed a middle class family and wanted to be like them. He went to the military and gained tuition for college. It has not been easy for him, but he is highly succesful today. Besides his own children, he and his wife have adopted three children. He would be the last person to suggest he is a self made man.

If I have to pay taxes, I would rather help a child get a leg up than support a war in the Middle East.

Older American men who complain and yearn for the good old age are a scourge. They have nothing to offer, but anger. They drive $80k retirement pickups they cannot back into a space. They feel entitled. What is sad, they could mentor someone and change the world.Great post, Chuck. In one of my classes we read the Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin and have this same kind of discussion: to what degree did Franklin earn his own success? Could anyone/everyone have succeeded having his start? What advantages may he have had? What support? To what degree was his success a direct result of his decisions, efforts, or talents? What degree was luck? How evenly, in a society, is what we call "luck" distributed? Was his society a level playing field? How did he feel about assisting others? That he was a great success is clear, and the easy part of the story (straight plot). How and why and in what kind of playing field he fought for his success is another matter.

We also pair this book with the Autobiography of Frederick Douglass and ask all of the same questions. I have a historian friend come to class and tell us the story of Jane Mecom, Franklin's favorite sister, for another contrasting tale.


Thank you for sharing your story.

Chip
October 15th, 2021, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=Chip;339615]I can see why fortitude would be a foreign concept to you, as opposed to the hit-and-run comments you try to pass as analysis.

What a cheap, nasty little shot.

dneal
October 15th, 2021, 12:44 PM
Are you done with the navel gazing? Is there some other pedantic point you would like to argue?

Still being the dick, I see.

You base your argument on a dichotomy and then call it "pedantic" and "navel gazing" to point out the limitations of argument via dichotomy? Nice work, there.

How about you just get smarter? You posted a stupid, jingoistic column full of false assumptions, overgeneralizations, and false dichotomies. You asked for comments and got answers. We could go over every line and show you the flaws, but it ain't worth the time cuz no one really cares enough, and you slander those who actually give you a sincere reply (that you don't like).

Nothin' new this week.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Curious response. Let me check my troll trap (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/35273-Trump-was-right) and see who was ensnared... EOC, Chuck, Chip and you. Says a lot.

But even more curious is one who explicitly stated they were not interested in a conversation with me can't help themselves but to rush to the defense of a fellow troll, leading off with "still being the dick..." Glass houses and all that.

Get smarter? I'm not the one who is unable to derive principles from Rep Crenshaw's piece and discuss the merits or lack thereof. That would be the same people in the aforementioned trap.

So indeed, nothing is new this week. Thanks for playing, and maybe you should see someone about your anger. It's getting worse. Should some miracle happen and Trump be re-elected in '24, I don't think you will be able to cope with it. "Brandon" doesn't appear to be up for a second term.

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 01:19 PM
<rolls eyes>

As long as you're proud!



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kazoolaw
October 15th, 2021, 02:19 PM
What utter self-ennobling crap.

* ** * *
This "strong person– freedom is scary" guff is attractive only to the foolish, powerless, resentful, and envious.






I can see why fortitude would be a foreign concept to you, as opposed to the hit-and-run comments you try to pass as analysis.

What a cheap, nasty little shot.

But Chip...
Was it utter crap?
Was it scary guff to you?
Did it describe you as foolish, powerless, resentful, and envious?
Or, did it hit the bullseye on your commentary?

Empty_of_Clouds
October 15th, 2021, 02:42 PM
So what? As a society we need to embrace both. Choosing one or the other won't work.

So what? You tell me. You brought it up.

Envision if you will, a spectrum with finite ends. Opposing positions along a continuum. Recognizing the ends does not limit you to them. There's still a whole range in the middle.

Are you done with the navel gazing? Is there some other pedantic point you would like to argue?

Actually it was you that brought it up, and I merely responded. I see you're back to your regular broadcast of insults.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 15th, 2021, 03:17 PM
Are you done with the navel gazing? Is there some other pedantic point you would like to argue?

Still being the dick, I see.

You base your argument on a dichotomy and then call it "pedantic" and "navel gazing" to point out the limitations of argument via dichotomy? Nice work, there.

How about you just get smarter? You posted a stupid, jingoistic column full of false assumptions, overgeneralizations, and false dichotomies. You asked for comments and got answers. We could go over every line and show you the flaws, but it ain't worth the time cuz no one really cares enough, and you slander those who actually give you a sincere reply (that you don't like).

Nothin' new this week.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Curious response. Let me check my troll trap (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/35273-Trump-was-right) and see who was ensnared... EOC, Chuck, Chip and you. Says a lot.

But even more curious is one who explicitly stated they were not interested in a conversation with me can't help themselves but to rush to the defense of a fellow troll, leading off with "still being the dick..." Glass houses and all that.

Get smarter? I'm not the one who is unable to derive principles from Rep Crenshaw's piece and discuss the merits or lack thereof. That would be the same people in the aforementioned trap.

So indeed, nothing is new this week. Thanks for playing, and maybe you should see someone about your anger. It's getting worse. Should some miracle happen and Trump be re-elected in '24, I don't think you will be able to cope with it. "Brandon" doesn't appear to be up for a second term.


First statement really does say a lot. It says that you, dneal, are somewhat delusional. In general I may chime in a response to a piece of information or a subject I find interesting, or if I am invited to do so. Fairly sure that's what most people tend to do. And yet you label me as a troll for posting a single link in a different thread - a link that merely lead to some opinion pieces that I found interesting. Note that I didn't further attend that thread and neither did I defend the op pieces in the link. They were merely offered as of interest to the subject. And yet you label me as a troll. Pretty absurdly low bar you set there, fellow.

Your second statement above does of course run slap into the face of whataboutism. Well done.

Third statement, oh dear, back to you assuming you're right and everyone else is stupid (bit of a stuck groove for you it seems). Crenshaw's piece is lightweight in its rhetoric and easily picked apart. There is no merit in claiming some secret message therein that only you can mine. Kind of makes you look a bit desperate.


Note: over the last couple of years there are some of us who have enjoyed exploring these potentially contentious subjects in this part of FPGeeks. You, dneal, obviously have information to share, but you have decided (for god knows what reason, if any) to position yourself as an antagonist only. It is therefore hardly surprising that you get the responses you get, and yet ironically you seem surprised that you are still getting that kind of response. Further, it amazes me that you seem unaware of the fact that you are a participant in those conversations and thus the responses you get are in part a product of your engagement. Some sort of mental blinkers perhaps.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 15th, 2021, 03:33 PM
Addendum

@dneal
@kazoolaw


Discussions and conversations in this neck of the forum can often be interesting, educational and enjoyable. However, you should know by now that the pushback you get from other members in these threads is because you go out of your way to make the threads unpleasant to engage in. We are not interested in the kind of acrimonious exchanges that you seem to thrive on, though sometimes get drawn into it against our better natures. And quite frankly we would enjoy have our conversations perfectly well in your absence. In fact your absence itself would be welcome. As something of a positivist I want to believe, and think I have seen, that you have some interesting insights to bring to the table. However, if you come to the table with information in one hand and a big ego-stick in the other then you are invited, with complete sincerity and a certain degree of earnestness, to bugger off.

dneal
October 15th, 2021, 04:02 PM
@ EOC.

Buddy, you've already outed yourself too. You said you wanted discussion. I offered you two threads. You picked the volatile one and ignored the reasonable one. You're back now with more of the same behavior. Why some of you seem hell-bent on derailing every topic is admittedly beyond me.

p.s.: You're probably the last person here to be asserting that someone else is delusional. Do you really want to go there?

Chuck Naill
October 15th, 2021, 04:24 PM
@dneal your batting out of you league. If you disagree with EOC, then say what and why. Just stop the stupid ad hominem approach. It’s makes you look smaller than you are already.
Just free advice that I hope you don’t take….lol!!

Empty_of_Clouds
October 15th, 2021, 04:44 PM
dneal - I picked the one that interested me. You cannot seem to get your head around the fact that your assumed reason for my choices are always incorrect. And agaiin, it's you that plunges these threads into unpleasantness.

dneal
October 15th, 2021, 04:52 PM
And the internet hyenas gather in their pack, and destroy another thread. Well done.

dneal
October 15th, 2021, 04:54 PM
@dneal your batting out of you league. If you disagree with EOC, then say what and why. Just stop the stupid ad hominem approach. It’s makes you look smaller than you are already.
Just free advice that I hope you don’t take….lol!!

Chuck - read your first sentence, and the one that follows the bolded portion.

A little reflection might be of benefit to you.

Chip
October 15th, 2021, 05:41 PM
It was typical right-wing nonsense.

Propaganda to make aging overweight couch potatoes in crap jobs think of themselves as brave warrior patriots.

For which you seem to be a sucker.

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 05:45 PM
And the internet hyenas gather in their pack, and destroy another thread. Well done.Yeah, you're soooo victimized here. For a confessed troll, you're quite a bit of a baby.

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Chip
October 15th, 2021, 06:00 PM
I'm all for fortitude, and it's the one thing I agree upon from that op piece. Much of the rest is the usual nationalistic chest-thumpery and, as Chip put, self-ennobling crap.

Living in New Zealand, I found myself admiring the political culture for the emphasis on fairness: a fair go for the common folk. Got this book a few years back, that looks at the differences to the US in detail.

https://i.imgur.com/E2mdSkZ.jpg

kazoolaw
October 15th, 2021, 06:01 PM
EoC-
I'll get back to you on post #22.
In the meanwhile, please run #24, 28 & 29 through the same ego-stick analysis. At first blush it doesn't appear that those posters are part of the "we" that aren't interested in acrimonious exchanges.

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 06:20 PM
. Do you really want to go there?

Sure, fuck face. Let's go there. You constantly falsely attribute motives to persons who do not post in your threads, as if to do so (not post) is some sort of hypocrisy or cowardly avoidance. What a dickish and errant assumption, which, if you actually believe it, is a delusion (false reality where your ego is central). To be clear, I have an interest in some of your threads, but I find your posts so combative that I simply stay away because you behave like such a prick who wants to lure people into arguments and then beat them for your ego.

It's not the topic; it's not the power of your argument (I find your arguments weak and often not worth the trouble). It's you.





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TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 06:22 PM
I'm all for fortitude, and it's the one thing I agree upon from that op piece. Much of the rest is the usual nationalistic chest-thumpery and, as Chip put, self-ennobling crap.

Living in New Zealand, I found myself admiring the political culture for the emphasis on fairness: a fair go for the common folk. Got this book a few years back, that looks at the differences to the US in detail.

https://i.imgur.com/E2mdSkZ.jpgWhat's the thesis?

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TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 06:24 PM
Addendum

@dneal
@kazoolaw


Discussions and conversations in this neck of the forum can often be interesting, educational and enjoyable. However, you should know by now that the pushback you get from other members in these threads is because you go out of your way to make the threads unpleasant to engage in. We are not interested in the kind of acrimonious exchanges that you seem to thrive on, though sometimes get drawn into it against our better natures. And quite frankly we would enjoy have our conversations perfectly well in your absence. In fact your absence itself would be welcome. As something of a positivist I want to believe, and think I have seen, that you have some interesting insights to bring to the table. However, if you come to the table with information in one hand and a big ego-stick in the other then you are invited, with complete sincerity and a certain degree of earnestness, to bugger off.+[emoji817]

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TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 06:37 PM
For example, I am right now reading the book "Unsettled," about the real data about climate science, and how the research has been misrepresented in the media and by some scientists. It is fascinating, full of many graphs of the data from the largest government reports around the world. And god bless it, it is NOT political in its thesis. I enjoy discussing it, but not for a minute with anyone who is going to turn it into some tool for taking a swipe at one party or the other.

And that won't happen on these threads, so I discuss it elsewhere. I have no interest in wrecking that good book with some sort of battle over it here.

That's not avoidance, that's not hypocrisy, that's just me choosing where and how my intellect gets stimulated in actual conversation.

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dneal
October 15th, 2021, 06:55 PM
And the internet hyenas gather in their pack, and destroy another thread. Well done.Yeah, you're soooo victimized here. For a confessed troll, you're quite a bit of a baby.

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Not victimized. You and your cohorts aren't able to do that. I do find the peek into the shared echo-chamber interesting (and a little entertaining).

Frankly, you guys are so easily triggered it's not even any fun to pull your strings.

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 07:10 PM
And the internet hyenas gather in their pack, and destroy another thread. Well done.Yeah, you're soooo victimized here. For a confessed troll, you're quite a bit of a baby.

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Not victimized. You and your cohorts aren't able to do that. I do find the peek into the shared echo-chamber interesting (and a little entertaining).

Frankly, you guys are so easily triggered it's not even any fun to pull your strings.So, why would you ever whine about having your threads wrecked, oh great master manipulator?

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Empty_of_Clouds
October 15th, 2021, 07:11 PM
@dneal

https://i.imgur.com/fQH7j19m.jpg

dneal
October 15th, 2021, 07:15 PM
@dneal

https://i.imgur.com/fQH7j19m.jpg

You take selfies now? Interesting. Next time get the full torso so we can see the hand-wringing.

TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 07:54 PM
Here, I'll demonstrate how shitty this column is that you started this thread with by looking at just one line.

You claim that he is "reasonable" and not prone to take one side or the other (bias).

And yet.

Here is his third sentence: "A libertine society where anything goes and consequences are ignored is less American-style freedom and more a scene from an antifa-led autonomous zone."

Do I really have to point out the various fallacies and empty (of reason) rhetorical devices of this sentence to the adults here?

And that is as soon as the third sentence.

Christ sake, what bullshit empty rhetoric and biased posturing.

If, dneal, you are here for anything more than trolling, you have to find something better than this nonsense. Crenshaw may be a fine person. But this column is just hollow posturing and not worth anyone's time here who can read carefully and objectively.

You can either get pissed off at the criticism and cast aspersions at the critics, or you can try to read better and post something better. Or neither. Whatever. You posted, you asked for "thoughts." You got them. To snipe, then, at the writers of those "thoughts" brings the "whining" charge.

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TSherbs
October 15th, 2021, 08:13 PM
And I'll just add this: I often don't bother responding to opinion columns in much detail because they are NOT efforts to use evidence and reason effectively. They are not designed for that. They are rhetorical devices, many of which have transparent motives and assumptions and biases and lapses in logic. I should know. I teach classes that study this, and I have done so for 35 years. Opinion pieces rarely effect the reader beyond confirmation bias. They aren't usually designed to do any more than that (sometimes they are, but certainly this column was not).

I enjoy some opinion pieces, but I am rarely ever persuaded by one. I can admire their sentences and expressions sometimes, but as anything "reasonable," they tend to fall short.

Chuck Naill
October 16th, 2021, 05:51 AM
And I'll just add this: I often don't bother responding to opinion columns in much detail because they are NOT efforts to use evidence and reason effectively. They are not designed for that. They are rhetorical devices, many of which have transparent motives and assumptions and biases and lapses in logic. I should know. I teach classes that study this, and I have done so for 35 years. Opinion pieces rarely effect the reader beyond confirmation bias. They aren't usually designed to do any more than that (sometimes they are, but certainly this column was not).

I enjoy some opinion pieces, but I am rarely ever persuaded by one. I can admire their sentences and expressions sometimes, but as anything "reasonable," they tend to fall short.

As a subscriber to the the NY Times, I choose to read broadly, and never considred it a way to comfirm my own biases. If fact I read most of the opinion pieces from a varying perspectives. Given my sales and marketing background, I find it similar to finding out what the competition is saying or pushing...LOL!!

Chuck Naill
October 16th, 2021, 06:19 AM
This thread and the posted content has reminded me of Charles Dickens and David Brooks.

"“They are Man's and they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. This boy is Ignorance and this girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased.” Charles Dickens

When we watch A Christmas Carol, many of us are probably reminded of our past and to the extent we have not been a good neighbor. We have looked down upon the black and brown sister with a brood of children and scorned them as unworthy as week feast on our meals of two meats and a variety of vegtables, relax knowing our homes are well maintained, and we are assured a "golden years" retirement because of a generous pension because of consistant employment, never having to receive unemployment or getting fired of laid off. We might even convince ourselves that our experience is common or worse, an expectation. Shame on us for being so blind.

I've read Brooks for years. He is a thinker. A bible teacher I knew once remarked "this is teaching, not preaching. You will be expected to think". Here are a couple of abstracts from this weeks op-ed.

“Humiliation lingers in the mind, the heart, the veins, the arteries forever,” Vivian Gornick writes in Harper’s Magazine. “It allows people to brood for decades on end, often deforming their inner lives.”

" If you think anybody who tells the truth is guilty of collaboration with cultural elites, then you are seeing the world through resentment-colored glasses."

"Some days American politics seems to be a futile clash of resentments. But I like to think that flowing through American history there is the recurring tale of people conquering humiliation through creative action. I like to think that scorn has paradoxically been a propulsive force in American life because people find sources of power in places scorn cannot reach."

I personally know what it feels like to be humiliated. I have been reduced to tears by Dickens. May we all learn to "Keep Christmas Well" for then it will permeate our souls and at the end we will have lived for something real.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/14/opinion/america-immigration-history.html

And, when we inflict humiliation, this is what occurs. https://harpers.org/archive/2021/10/put-on-the-diamonds-notes-on-humiliation-vivian-gornick/

dneal
October 16th, 2021, 09:21 AM
Here, I'll demonstrate how shitty this column is that you started this thread with by looking at just one line.

You claim that he is "reasonable" and not prone to take one side or the other (bias).

And yet.

Here is his third sentence: "A libertine society where anything goes and consequences are ignored is less American-style freedom and more a scene from an antifa-led autonomous zone."

Do I really have to point out the various fallacies and empty (of reason) rhetorical devices of this sentence to the adults here?

And that is as soon as the third sentence.

Christ sake, what bullshit empty rhetoric and biased posturing.

If, dneal, you are here for anything more than trolling, you have to find something better than this nonsense. Crenshaw may be a fine person. But this column is just hollow posturing and not worth anyone's time here who can read carefully and objectively.

You can either get pissed off at the criticism and cast aspersions at the critics, or you can try to read better and post something better. Or neither. Whatever. You posted, you asked for "thoughts." You got them. To snipe, then, at the writers of those "thoughts" brings the "whining" charge.

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What's really amusing is that I manage to troll you without even intending to.

kazoolaw
October 16th, 2021, 10:30 AM
Addendum

@dneal
@kazoolaw


Discussions and conversations in this neck of the forum can often be interesting, educational and enjoyable. However, you should know by now that the pushback you get from other members in these threads is because you go out of your way to make the threads unpleasant to engage in. We are not interested in the kind of acrimonious exchanges that you seem to thrive on, though sometimes get drawn into it against our better natures. And quite frankly we would enjoy have our conversations perfectly well in your absence. In fact your absence itself would be welcome. As something of a positivist I want to believe, and think I have seen, that you have some interesting insights to bring to the table. However, if you come to the table with information in one hand and a big ego-stick in the other then you are invited, with complete sincerity and a certain degree of earnestness, to bugger off.





Read this several times. At first thought' "Well, that's something to consider." Question arose, "Why this comment in this thread?" Then thought, "Seems like a long way to walk to get to the end, but that's EoC's style."
On consideration of the italicized portion, it becomes obvious that EoC is trying to claim the rhetorical high ground to unleash his thunderbolt: "Bugger off" {more about his choice of words a bit later}

EoC never identifies the "we" in his post who aren't interested in acrimonious exchanges.

Is Chip in the group? His posts 2 ("crap" and "the foolish, powerless, resentful, and envious") and 28 (overweight couch potato) are certainly not sweetness and light. Maybe even agressive.

Is TSherbs a member of the elite? Post 32 ("Sure, fuck face.) hints he is not.

Is EoC still a part of the "we?" Is Post 38 in jest or a jab? Not clear on its face so let's leave it there for now. Return here after reading to the end and decide then.

Eoc refers to "our better natures" as the reason the "we" aren't interested in acrimonious exchanges. It seems that "we" slip out of those "better natures" when it suits them to make their own acrimonious comments.

EoC goes on ( and on and on...) that "...frankly we would enjoy have our conversations perfectly well in your absence." Empty, did you notice whose topic you're in? Looking to the top it says "dneal." dneal starts the topic, "we" enter and would enjoy talking in the topic dneal started if only he and I weren't here. Trying to evict the topic-starter, and I, so EoC can talk in our absence made me wonder "Well, why doesn't EoC start a topic of his own?" (Actually, the next question was why engage if you don't like it?)

Did you realize that each page of this Forum: Politics, Religion and Society has 20 topics listed. As I write this, on the first 2 pages with 40 topics how many would you venture to guess EoC, Chip, and TSherbs have started? Take a guess, don't peek at the answer. (Yup: zero.) welch has started several. Chuck Naill has stepped out and mustered the courage to start topics of his own and raise a question or state his position. Not so for the "better natures." That's their choice of course. It just makes it clear who is coming in and crapping all over whose topics.

This can be a rough-and-tumble place. The top of the page states: "Not for the faint of heart. ... You have been warned." Posts can span across the full range of discussion--> debate--> argument--> bare-knuckle brawl. No surprises for any of us.

Which brings us to EoC's closing exhortation "to bugger off." It's pretty clear what the generic sense of the term is. But EoC chose this term intentionally, and so I wanted to try to figure out why.

Turns out "bugger" is a verb form of the noun "buggery" which lead to:


"buggery (n.)
... Later (1510s) "unnatural intercourse" with man or beast...."
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=bugger

Yup, EoC's better nature hurling bestiality at us.

I hope EoC searches, finds, and puts into practice the better nature he obviously needs. No vengeance express or implied

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 10:32 AM
This thread and the posted content has reminded me of Charles Dickens and David Brooks.

"“They are Man's and they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. This boy is Ignorance and this girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased.” Charles Dickens

When we watch A Christmas Carol, many of us are probably reminded of our past and to the extent we have not been a good neighbor. We have looked down upon the black and brown sister with a brood of children and scorned them as unworthy as week feast on our meals of two meats and a variety of vegtables, relax knowing our homes are well maintained, and we are assured a "golden years" retirement because of a generous pension because of consistant employment, never having to receive unemployment or getting fired of laid off. We might even convince ourselves that our experience is common or worse, an expectation. Shame on us for being so blind.

I've read Brooks for years. He is a thinker. A bible teacher I knew once remarked "this is teaching, not preaching. You will be expected to think". Here are a couple of abstracts from this weeks op-ed.

“Humiliation lingers in the mind, the heart, the veins, the arteries forever,” Vivian Gornick writes in Harper’s Magazine. “It allows people to brood for decades on end, often deforming their inner lives.”

" If you think anybody who tells the truth is guilty of collaboration with cultural elites, then you are seeing the world through resentment-colored glasses."

"Some days American politics seems to be a futile clash of resentments. But I like to think that flowing through American history there is the recurring tale of people conquering humiliation through creative action. I like to think that scorn has paradoxically been a propulsive force in American life because people find sources of power in places scorn cannot reach."

I personally know what it feels like to be humiliated. I have been reduced to tears by Dickens. May we all learn to "Keep Christmas Well" for then it will permeate our souls and at the end we will have lived for something real.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/14/opinion/america-immigration-history.html

And, when we inflict humiliation, this is what occurs. https://harpers.org/archive/2021/10/put-on-the-diamonds-notes-on-humiliation-vivian-gornick/Thanks, Chuck. Several of these are stimulating ideas. The 2020 election and the COVID pandemic have provided crises around which some deeper reflection has been engendered. Or country needs that. We are not, in my opinion, a very reflective culture historically (nor even religiously), and we should work at it more. We work much harder at selling shit and winning elections than we do at knowing our selves and trying to improve both our individual and national character.

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TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 10:49 AM
Is TSherbs a member of the elite? Post 32 ("Sure, fuck face.) hints he is not.

[/SIZE]

Hell no, I'm not.

But dneal has at least twice tried to tarnish me with "NPR" style and "Ivy League" something or other. The general aspersion of agreeing with media elites or talking heads or educated "pedants" has been flying at some of us all over the place here.

You also called me some string of charges and epithets, all adding up to the general notion that I am an educated snob. Come on, Kazoo. Don't pretend that you don't know what EOC is talking about.

Besides, dneal has admitted that he starts the threads to yank us on chains. That he begins them does not release him from the responsibility from what he does, say, on his posts #s 4, 5, 6, etc. Same for you.

How many times are you going to try to narrow the argument with Chuck in order to press him into some sort of corner to score a victory? What are you really after? Are you interested in his thoughts, however they may stray, or are you just into a kind of forensic courtroom debate with victory in mind?






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dneal
October 16th, 2021, 10:59 AM
I'm eagerly awaiting the responses to kazoolaw's clear analysis - and particularly the logical and linguistic contortions needed for the "we's" to convince themselves of their unimpeachable moral superiority.

A couple of memes, if you will, to more clearly demonstrate:

The smug, condescending satisfaction of successfully "virtue-signaling" other "we's"...

64159


... quickly reduced to triggered, rage-filled, vitriol spouting children.

64160

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 11:31 AM
Memes, dneal? Really?

"Unimpeachable moral superiority"? Nice strawman.

When I call you an abrasive prick, it's not from "moral superiority" of any kind, not even the "unimpeachable" variety. It's just a casual observation put in vulgar terms. I notice that you never deny it, and no one ever comes to your defense to deny it (not even kazoo). You guys simply say things like "but you're arrogant and angry and make me laugh at you."

Well, fine. I'm a pedant, and you're a trolling prick. I want a discussion, you want an argument. I prefer the former, in friends, family, and forum correspondents. That's not a "moral" statement at all. It's just what I like and value.

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Chuck Naill
October 16th, 2021, 12:17 PM
I'm eagerly awaiting the responses to kazoolaw's clear analysis - and particularly the logical and linguistic contortions needed for the "we's" to convince themselves of their unimpeachable moral superiority.

A couple of memes, if you will, to more clearly demonstrate:

The smug, condescending satisfaction of successfully "virtue-signaling" other "we's"...

64159


... quickly reduced to triggered, rage-filled, vitriol spouting children.

64160

Yes, Kaz is clear as a clogged toliet. 😂😂😂😂

Chuck Naill
October 16th, 2021, 12:19 PM
Memes, dneal? Really?

"Unimpeachable moral superiority"? Nice strawman.

When I call you an abrasive prick, it's not from "moral superiority" of any kind, not even the "unimpeachable" variety. It's just a casual observation put in vulgar terms. I notice that you never deny it, and no one ever comes to your defense to deny it (not even kazoo). You guys simply say things like "but you're arrogant and angry and make me laugh at you."

Well, fine. I'm a pedant, and you're a trolling prick. I want a discussion, you want an argument. I prefer the former, in friends, family, and forum correspondents. That's not a "moral" statement at all. It's just what I like and value.

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So, my former manager long dead used to define insanity as doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 12:26 PM
Is hope insane?

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Empty_of_Clouds
October 16th, 2021, 12:43 PM
@kazoolaw, you either are aware that 'bugger off' is a typical English sentiment (part of my local vernacular) or you are not. If you are then your 'analysis' flags you as a dick, if not then consider yourself educated. Those with whom I am happy to have a conversation understood it perfectly well, others did not. You're in the second group with dneal, in case you we having some difficulty with the previous sentence.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 16th, 2021, 12:48 PM
Is hope insane?

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I suppose it depends on how you define hope. Is it an unreasonable or reasonable expectation?

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 12:58 PM
@kazoolaw, you either are aware that 'bugger off' is a typical English sentiment (part of my local vernacular) or you are not. If you are then your 'analysis' flags you as a dick, if not then consider yourself educated. Those with whom I am happy to have a conversation understood it perfectly well, others did not. You're in the second group with dneal, in case you we having some difficulty with the previous sentence.I am disappointed that I did not get an etymological analysis of "fuck face." After all, it is a bizarre epithet. I remember learning the etymology of "piss off." I was impressed, and came to appreciate British slang all the more.

Is that "unimpeachably morally superior"? [emoji23] Ha. Hardly!

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TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 01:03 PM
There's a good story of when I learned, in second grade, the power of "fuck" as an expressive. We had just moved into a rather posh neighborhood, and I screamed the word loud enough for neighbors to hear. (That's a summary, not the 'story')

Not much has changed, except that I live now in a much smaller house in decidedly non-posh town.

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Chuck Naill
October 16th, 2021, 01:50 PM
Fuck is overused, but there are times when dog gone just doesn’t work.

We should all know by now that Kaz is a troll and has no original thoughts. If there were not something to copy and paste, he would be a lost ball in the weeds.

@dneal has been riding that military experience pony so long that he’s forgotten how to ride a decent horse. Or, as the Brits might say, “a proper horse”.

kazoolaw
October 16th, 2021, 03:00 PM
Those with whom I am happy to have a conversation understood it perfectly well, others did not. You're in the second group with dneal, in case you we having some difficulty with the previous sentence.

And yet here you are, engaging in a conversation with me, trying to make your vocabulary my responsibility.

kazoolaw
October 16th, 2021, 03:08 PM
[QUOTE=Empty_of_Clouds;339910]I am disappointed that I did not get an etymological analysis of "fuck face." After all, it is a bizarre epithet. I remember learning the etymology of "piss off." I was impressed, and came to appreciate British slang all the more.

Is that "unimpeachably morally superior"? [emoji23] Ha. Hardly!

No need for disappointment. You've always been pretty blunt in you opinions and language: good for you.

You were included because EoC was posturing regarding the "we" who have better natures. As you've said you are not one of his we. He is a we of one.

dneal
October 16th, 2021, 04:20 PM
Memes, dneal? Really?

"Unimpeachable moral superiority"? Nice strawman.

When I call you an abrasive prick, it's not from "moral superiority" of any kind, not even the "unimpeachable" variety. It's just a casual observation put in vulgar terms. I notice that you never deny it, and no one ever comes to your defense to deny it (not even kazoo). You guys simply say things like "but you're arrogant and angry and make me laugh at you."

Well, fine. I'm a pedant, and you're a trolling prick. I want a discussion, you want an argument. I prefer the former, in friends, family, and forum correspondents. That's not a "moral" statement at all. It's just what I like and value.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Yes, memes. A picture is worth a thousand words, so I offered two thousand words as efficiently as I could. People complain of not having enough time, after all.

But more importantly, why did you assume I was talking about you? I referenced no one in particular, but you took it personally. Perhaps your guilty conscience?

If I'm a "trolling prick", why is it that you keep ending up on my hook? I can only suppose the pain of which is what causes your outbursts of expletives. I do confess that I find it somewhat disappointing, coming from an English teacher. One would think you could be more creative or eloquent. But you know what they say, those who cannot do... and all that.

I offered an olive branch to each of you. You slapped it away. You seem incapable of refraining from commenting on my posts, even when they do not involve you.

I couldn't care less who does or does not "come to my defense", because I'm more than secure enough (and emotionally stable enough) not to need it - but it doesn't seem to be the same for you (and others). Something broke you. Maybe Trump, maybe COVID, who knows. You continue to show your baser nature though. In all seriousness and with no maliciousness, I do think it would be good for your health to perhaps step away from this portion of the forum.

p.s.: That wasn't a strawman. I'll explain if you really want.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 16th, 2021, 04:50 PM
I offered an olive branch to each of you. You slapped it away. You seem incapable of refraining from commenting on my posts, even when they do not involve you.

You didn't get the memo? It would be nice if people could at least be civil - I appreciate that civility is very much a foreign country for you. Your olive branch was corrupt and it really didn't take very long to see that. Sustained niceness - you should try it some time, maybe in the next life?

As for kazoolaw, you're doing well in your campaign to get crowned as the Internet's biggest nit-picker. Bit of a low aspiration if you ask me.

dneal
October 16th, 2021, 05:01 PM
Again, you already outed yourself - in plain view for everyone to see - in both my troll snare and kazoolaw’s clear analysis.

The machinations you are going through in a vain effort to prove otherwise is simply entertainment for me at this point.

Chip
October 16th, 2021, 05:03 PM
https://i.imgur.com/E2mdSkZ.jpg

What's the thesis?

Simply, that in the US, there's a focus on "freedom," specifically a perceived lack of constraint or restraint regarding individual action, as a virtue. Where in New Zealand (and to some extent, Australia) the focus is on the responsibility of government to extend an equitable social contract, even if it requires some constraints on individual behavior, specifically that sort which harms others or forecloses their social or economic options.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 05:25 PM
But more importantly, why did you assume I was talking about you?
I did not assume this. I commented on your action, not that it was about me directly. As you have done so with EoC, you are misattributing motive to others.


f I'm a "trolling prick", why is it that you keep ending up on my hook? I can only suppose the pain of which is what causes your outbursts of expletives. I do confess that I find it somewhat disappointing, coming from an English teacher. One would think you could be more creative or eloquent. But you know what they say, those who cannot do... and all that.
Because, as in this case, when you pretend to be cool and distanced but you are actually being a dick extraordinary, you simply deserve to be called so. Your faux objectivity and smooth syntax are, in these kinds of posts, nothing more than gloss on an asshole. I actually find you kind of sick, like pathologically. You have confessed what I consider to be a perverse pleasure out of all this passive-aggressive posturing that you do.


I offered an olive branch to each of you. You slapped it away.I watched your "offer" to EoC, and I watched how you continued to chirp and insult him. You are insincere in your offers.


You seem incapable of refraining from commenting on my posts, even when they do not involve you.Regardless of how this *seems,* you are wrong. I let many of your posts go.

Nothing has "broken me," dneal, I assure you. I have been pretty frank: I just don't think that passive-aggressive assholes like you who bully and threaten and lie to others and present false theories should go unanswered. Every time that I see you pull some bullshit or post some tripe or other I am going to call it out. If you posted on something other than politics that didn't look like another trap-in-waiting, I would probably answer. You also tend to post links or videos and then just say, "Response?" This is not an enjoyable *conversation* to me. I don't watch videos for news or anything, really, except recipes, humor, DIY, and music clips. News or political commentary? No, I want to READ it and see the sentences.

As you must be able to see, I write and exchange on other topics with other members. Why don't you try one and try to keep political fighting out of it?

And I don't care that you don't care. As I have also said, I write these posts for others to read who come here, not for you. I do periodically put you on ignore and will do so again when it suits me. Some days I don't want to see who you are arguing with. Some days I don't mind. Like EoC wrote, there are some of "us" here who actually have interest in the topics and enjoy an exchange of ideas. But some of "us" really aren't looking for a battle and don't want to sharpen our understanding primarily through abrasion on others.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 05:31 PM
https://i.imgur.com/E2mdSkZ.jpg

What's the thesis?

Simply, that in the US, there's a focus on "freedom," specifically a perceived lack of constraint or restraint regarding individual action, as a virtue. Where in New Zealand (and to some extent, Australia) the focus is on the responsibility of government to extend an equitable social contract, even if it requires some constraints on individual behavior, specifically that sort which harms others or forecloses their social or economic options.Thanks for explaining that, Chip. I appreciate it. I find American culture inimical to this discussion (generally) because the idea of larger social obligations to each other or sacrifices (especially economic) *for* each other become labeled *Marxist* or some such blunt blow meant to poison the conversation rather than deepen it.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 16th, 2021, 05:49 PM
That book sounds interesting. It should be noted, although I am sure anyone reading this is likely aware of this, that New Zealand society is not without its deeply ingrained prejudices and other flaws. There is also the question of scale that comes to my mind at least. The US and New Zealand are significantly different, in land area, in population sizes, isolation, and so on. These factors no doubt have a much influence on how societies function and how national identity (even stereotype) is formed.


Ah hah! Just had a rummage through my University library and found that we have several copies including an e-version. It's now on my to-read list! Cheers, Chip.

TSherbs
October 16th, 2021, 05:53 PM
That book sounds interesting. It should be noted, although I am sure anyone reading this is likely aware of this, that New Zealand society is not without its deeply ingrained prejudices and other flaws. There is also the question of scale that comes to my mind at least. The US and New Zealand are significantly different, in land area, in population sizes, isolation, and so on. These factors no doubt have a much influence on how societies function and how national identity (even stereotype) is formed.


Ah hah! Just had a rummage through my University library and found that we have several copies including an e-version. It's now on my to-read list! Cheers, Chip.Yes, we in the states have unique challenges and historical and cultural forms of identity. We've been blessed and cursed, and everything in between. And all on a large scale.

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dneal
October 16th, 2021, 07:59 PM
TSherbs - you sure do a lot of arguing for someone who says they don't want an argument, chasing me around this forum commenting on my posts. You also said you didn't want conversation with me, but now you seem to indicate you do. Make up your mind.

Chip
October 16th, 2021, 11:14 PM
New Zealand society is not without its deeply ingrained prejudices and other flaws. There is also the question of scale that comes to my mind at least. The US and New Zealand are significantly different, in land area, in population sizes, isolation, and so on. These factors no doubt have a much influence on how societies function and how national identity (even stereotype) is formed.

When I lived there and there was controversy over foreshore and resource rights (rangatiratanga), I heard quite a few nasty racist comments at dinner parties and from doctors, dentists, farmers, bankers, and other prominent pakeha. My spouse is a wildlife biologist and law professor specialising in biodiversity, land management, treaty rights, and similar areas, so I got a fair sample of New Zealand thinking in that wise.

On the whole, I found New Zealand to have a more amenable public culture: decent public transport, lots of public toilets and other facilities, a much higher standard of face-to-face courtesy and concern for strangers, greater honesty in everyday dealings, and a general regard for service and support.

Plus the beer is great and the sailing is brilliant!

kazoolaw
October 16th, 2021, 11:16 PM
[QUOTE]As for kazoolaw, you're doing well in your campaign to get crowned as the Internet's biggest nit-picker. Bit of a low aspiration if you ask me.

Is this one of those conversations with me you choose not to engage in?

kazoolaw
October 17th, 2021, 12:00 AM
We should all know by now that Kaz is a troll and has no original thoughts. If there were not something to copy and paste, he would be a lost ball in the weeds

Hi Chuck-

I often copy and paste so that it's clear I'm not misquoting someone, and we're all talking about the same thing. It's also a habit from other forums where the original poster can go back and make the original post disappear, removing all context from my comments.

As I mentioned in Post 45, I appreciate the effort you make to start topics about things you care about. It's also clear that some of your posts share things that are important to you, that you've thought about for a long time, and are willing to open up and share with this group. I apologize for being harsh in my replies to some of your comments, escalating what should have been a discussion or debate to an argument or brawl.

But, as you recognized, copiers and pasters gotta copy and paste:

"Yes, Kaz is clear as a clogged toliet. 😂😂😂😂"

I guess, like fashion, potty jokes come back in style. Thanks for the smiles.

kazoolaw
October 17th, 2021, 12:15 AM
Thanks for explaining that, Chip. I appreciate it. I find American culture inimical to this discussion (generally) because the idea of larger social obligations to each other or sacrifices (especially economic) *for* each other become labeled *Marxist* or some such blunt blow meant to poison the conversation rather than deepen it.

There is a focus on "freedom" and an ongoing debate between what is too much, and what is too little, government. There are certainly social obligations to each other. But I think "sacrifices" are generally choices the individual makes based upon the freedom to choose. If government makes and enforces that decision then it's no longer a sacrifice. Government's decision may, or may not, correspond to an individual's view of their social obligation.

TSherbs
October 17th, 2021, 06:12 AM
There is a focus on "freedom" and an ongoing debate between what is too much, and what is too little, government. There are certainly social obligations to each other. But I think "sacrifices" are generally choices the individual makes based upon the freedom to choose. If government makes and enforces that decision then it's no longer a sacrifice. Government's decision may, or may not, correspond to an individual's view of their social obligation.


Is this an absolute position?

In other words, IYO, is there no social contract implicit (or explicit) in being a citizen of a town, city, state, nation, (or world)? Are you saying that each individual in a modern society should be able to negotiate their individual obligations to the various communities I mentioned?

kazoolaw
October 17th, 2021, 06:19 AM
No, neither extreme of the individual/state spectrum is absolute.
The issue, and debate about the issue, is where is the balance is.

TSherbs
October 17th, 2021, 06:41 AM
No, neither extreme of the individual/state spectrum is absolute.
The issue, and debate about the issue, is where is the balance is.
I agree. Are you satisfied with our representative elections and referendum initiatives being the process through which citizens of communities have influence in the creation of that balance legally? Or, are you dissatisfied with this? (some people object to the process of winner-take-all, for example).

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Chuck Naill
October 17th, 2021, 06:42 AM
We should all know by now that Kaz is a troll and has no original thoughts. If there were not something to copy and paste, he would be a lost ball in the weeds

Hi Chuck-

I often copy and paste so that it's clear I'm not misquoting someone, and we're all talking about the same thing. It's also a habit from other forums where the original poster can go back and make the original post disappear, removing all context from my comments.

As I mentioned in Post 45, I appreciate the effort you make to start topics about things you care about. It's also clear that some of your posts share things that are important to you, that you've thought about for a long time, and are willing to open up and share with this group. I apologize for being harsh in my replies to some of your comments, escalating what should have been a discussion or debate to an argument or brawl.

But, as you recognized, copiers and pasters gotta copy and paste:

"Yes, Kaz is clear as a clogged toliet. 😂😂😂😂"

I guess, like fashion, potty jokes come back in style. Thanks for the smiles.



Apology readily accepted. Sorry for the ad hominem comment as well.

Chip
October 17th, 2021, 04:39 PM
I can see why fortitude would be a foreign concept to you, as opposed to the hit-and-run comments you try to pass as analysis.

If anyone cares to discuss the personal aspects of "fortitude" perhaps we could compare our work histories and other pursuits rather than level empty accusations.

I'm guessing the biggest risk you ever took was to cheat on your income tax.

kazoolaw
October 19th, 2021, 04:09 AM
No, neither extreme of the individual/state spectrum is absolute.
The issue, and debate about the issue, is where is the balance is.
I agree. Are you satisfied with our representative elections and referendum initiatives being the process through which citizens of communities have influence in the creation of that balance legally? Or, are you dissatisfied with this? (some people object to the process of winner-take-all, for example).

Yes, I think elections, referendums ( here called "ballot initiatives "), and recalls are sufficient provide engaged citizens the means to impact that balance.

TSherbs
October 19th, 2021, 04:25 AM
No, neither extreme of the individual/state spectrum is absolute.
The issue, and debate about the issue, is where is the balance is.
I agree. Are you satisfied with our representative elections and referendum initiatives being the process through which citizens of communities have influence in the creation of that balance legally? Or, are you dissatisfied with this? (some people object to the process of winner-take-all, for example).

Yes, I think elections, referendums ( here called "ballot initiatives "), and recalls are sufficient provide engaged citizens the means to impact that balance.
agreed

but I don't even know if Maine has a formal recall process. It's never happened in the 30 years that I have lived here.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

kazoolaw
October 19th, 2021, 08:10 AM
How to game a system, part n + 1

When a Michigan governor faces a recall the campaign contribution limits are off. Gov. Whitmer has raised several millions though there has never been a recall vote. The Secretary of State has now said that money above the campaign limits can be refunded to the donors. Or contributed to the Democrat party. Or maybe just used by the Gov for other things.

California has a similar "lift the limit" law. I think its law also provides that a host of candidates run against the sitting governor.

I assume that all of these provisions are thought to provide some advantage to one side or the other. No surprise.

ralfstc
October 21st, 2021, 01:52 PM
In my opinion, it's not an either/or situation. There are areas where I would expect people to take personal responsibility, and there are other areas where I expect the government to step up. How you decide which bucket to place things in is the tricky bit.

Completely agree. Lazy binaries are how we got where we are today. Crenshaw's piece is horribly written and, while claiming some sort of higher level perspective, very quickly devolves into partisan talking points.

I imagine almost everybody would be comfortable with the idea that freedom and responsibility go together. The harder question is what sorts of freedoms, and for whom, and what sorts of responsibility? As an example (not making a political point here) if I found a tech company and make a $100 Billion, what is the balance between my freedom to enjoy my wealth and my responsibility to the community/country that helped me to be successful?

All of us, wherever we live, need to get involved in a REAL conversation about the role of the state and business and community in individuals in the world we want to see. Simple binaries and partisanship aren't going to help, I don't think.

Best wishes,

Ralf

dneal
October 21st, 2021, 02:30 PM
If anything, Rep Crenshaw got one thing right:

"Once you start talking about the need for responsibility as a critical part of freedom, you lose some people."

What role does individual responsibility play in a democracy? What responsibilities does an individual have to a democracy?

Seems both those notions are present in the "horribly written, partisan, self-ennobling, etc..." piece.

Chuck Naill
October 21st, 2021, 02:36 PM
If anything, Rep Crenshaw got one thing right:

"Once you start talking about the need for responsibility as a critical part of freedom, you lose some people."

What role does individual responsibility play in a democracy? What responsibilities does an individual have to a democracy?

Seems both those notions are present in the "horribly written, partisan, self-ennobling, etc..." piece.

The problem is, no one if fully responsible. It sounds good to say.

And for that matter, why expect someone to always be responsible? As someone, somewhere said, “ sometimes you need a hand and some times you need to lend a hand.

dneal
October 21st, 2021, 03:11 PM
Are the rich responsible for paying their taxes?

Chip
October 21st, 2021, 11:01 PM
In the US, a great many corporations deploy complex legal and financial strategies to deny being responsible for their toxic waste and evade liabilities. While keeping the profits. And hiring lawyers and lobbyists, who lack any conscience whatsoever.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/business/chemours-dupont-pfas-genx-chemicals.html

kazoolaw
October 22nd, 2021, 05:25 AM
In the US, a great many corporations deploy complex legal and financial strategies to deny being responsible for their toxic waste and evade liabilities.

A call for corporate responsibility, and fortitude at the corporate level.

Chuck Naill
October 22nd, 2021, 05:50 AM
I was listening to a story about a Trump golf course where he disputed the value assessed by the local property tax office. He was allowed to negotiate the value thus demonstrating the advantage of the wealthy.

kazoolaw
October 22nd, 2021, 06:00 AM
where I live I can dispute any increase in the tax assessment of my home.
You too?

Chuck Naill
October 22nd, 2021, 07:43 AM
where I live I can dispute any increase in the tax assessment of my home.
You too?


How successful do you think you'd be? Or, have you tried and if not, why not? Was the Trump assessment punitive? If not, we can assume he just didn't want to pay and had the means to block.

kazoolaw
October 22nd, 2021, 09:28 AM
If I'm correct I think I'd be successful. To this point I've not seen the need to contest my assessment.
I have no knowledge of the Trump assessment, nor are details provided in your post for me to consider.
I have seen instances of taxing authorities grossly overvaluing property for tax purposes.

Chuck Naill
October 22nd, 2021, 09:38 AM
If you think you’d be successful and haven’t, that would be sort of stupid not to try?

kazoolaw
October 22nd, 2021, 04:30 PM
If I think the current assessment is reasonable why would I appeal?

Chuck Naill
October 22nd, 2021, 06:18 PM
If I think the current assessment is reasonable why would I appeal?


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/10/20/trump-national-golf-club-wins-briarcliff-tax-case-investigation/6110044001/

kazoolaw
October 22nd, 2021, 06:31 PM
Not to worry, I don't own a golf course.

Brilliant Bill
October 25th, 2021, 12:36 PM
I am fascinated by these "discussions" that presume the viability of the U.S. as a nation -- not fascinated enough to read all the vapid commentary though.

My ex-wife has become a full-blown conspiracy theorist, sadly. I hate seeing her descent into madness. Anyway, here's something I wrote to her in response to her last episode of insanity:

"There is a genuine medical emergency, yes. We are dealing with it as best we can given the political situation and general madness and ignorance all about; progress is being made. Yes, the government is totally dysfunctional and in the hands of wealthy corporate interests whose only desire for good order is their own greed. Yes, this country is a crumbling empire, and 20 years from now I suspect it will be hugely different. Yes, there may be a cataclysmic change coming. Yes, the economy is a hollowed-out shell, and it could implode at any time. Yes, climate change is real, seems to be accelerating and is human-induced. All true, and all plainly obvious to any thinking person who has eyes to see. But this is not all the workings of a sinister plan from the mind of a James Bond villain. This is what we humans have brought upon ourselves through our own selfishness, ignorance and lack of self-discipline."

kazoolaw
October 25th, 2021, 01:24 PM
I am fascinated by these "discussions" that presume the viability of the U.S. as a nation -- not fascinated enough to read all the vapid commentary though.

My ex-wife has become a full-blown conspiracy theorist, sadly. I hate seeing her descent into madness. Anyway, here's something I wrote to her in response to her last episode of insanity:

"There is a genuine medical emergency, yes. We are dealing with it as best we can given the political situation and general madness and ignorance all about; progress is being made. Yes, the government is totally dysfunctional and in the hands of wealthy corporate interests whose only desire for good order is their own greed. Yes, this country is a crumbling empire, and 20 years from now I suspect it will be hugely different. Yes, there may be a cataclysmic change coming. Yes, the economy is a hollowed-out shell, and it could implode at any time. Yes, climate change is real, seems to be accelerating and is human-induced. All true, and all plainly obvious to any thinking person who has eyes to see. But this is not all the workings of a sinister plan from the mind of a James Bond villain. This is what we humans have brought upon ourselves through our own selfishness, ignorance and lack of self-discipline."

Bill, do you take the position that it is not viable that the U.S. can continue as a nation? Is the U.S.' condition terminal?

Chuck Naill
October 28th, 2021, 10:26 AM
It is not terminal, but it is not the same. It appears every generation must go through this process. WW2 made men distant from their families and while I understand the military is important, it appears is damages more than it improves.

My father once asked if I had changed a diaper. My response was, "I have three children". As an adult male with children, my position was that it was more my responsibility than the mother.

One thing we have always wanted is truth. Educate yourself and tell your children the truth if you want a relationship with subsequent generations.

pajaro
October 28th, 2021, 11:11 AM
Whom does one trust?

Bold2013
October 28th, 2021, 02:17 PM
Whom does one trust?


This is really the heart of the matter

kazoolaw
October 28th, 2021, 04:24 PM
Whom does one trust?


This is really the heart of the matter

Those who have proven themselves trustworthy. This is not a matter of words, it is evidenced by a demonstrated life.

TSherbs
October 28th, 2021, 07:04 PM
Whom does one trust?


This is really the heart of the matter

Those who have proven themselves trustworthy. This is not a matter of words, it is evidenced by a demonstrated life.



I value words, too.

Chuck Naill
October 29th, 2021, 05:52 AM
I value words also. A child that grows up in a family that provides essentials, but does not encourage and let them know they are loved suffers a life time of distress and insecurity. And, a family that deminishes the children with words destroys an oppotunity.

I am a collector of quotes which are words of course.

kazoolaw
October 29th, 2021, 08:38 AM
Do you think a person proves trustworthiness soley by speaking?

Chuck Naill
October 29th, 2021, 08:51 AM
Not "soley" and neither do actions build trust. It takes both. Often actions are not required and often words are all that is required. After all, the tongue reveals the heart. People can do nice things for the wrong reasons.

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but hard words stir up anger".
"Where words increase, transgression is unavoidable"
"Gentle words bring health and life, a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.

dneal
October 29th, 2021, 09:07 AM
"Actions speak louder than words"

Chuck Naill
October 29th, 2021, 10:32 AM
"Action speaks louder than words but not nearly as often.”

― Mark Twain

Chip
October 29th, 2021, 12:12 PM
Or p'raps:

Appearance blinds, whereas words reveal.

― Oscar Wilde

dneal
October 29th, 2021, 12:44 PM
"Action speaks louder than words but not nearly as often.”

― Mark Twain

lol, he’s not criticizing action. He’s saying people are lazy and “talk is cheap”.

kazoolaw
October 29th, 2021, 12:52 PM
Or p'raps:

Appearance blinds, whereas words reveal.

― Oscar Wilde

Appearance perhaps, performance probably not.

kazoolaw
October 29th, 2021, 01:33 PM
Not "soley" and neither do actions build trust. It takes both. Often actions are not required and often words are all that is required. After all, the tongue reveals the heart. People can do nice things for the wrong reasons.

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but hard words stir up anger".
"Where words increase, transgression is unavoidable"
"Gentle words bring health and life, a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.

Chuck, pop quiz for you 'cause I know you'll get it:
"_ _ _ _ h without _ _ _ _ s is dead."

Chuck Naill
October 29th, 2021, 06:22 PM
Not "soley" and neither do actions build trust. It takes both. Often actions are not required and often words are all that is required. After all, the tongue reveals the heart. People can do nice things for the wrong reasons.

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but hard words stir up anger".
"Where words increase, transgression is unavoidable"
"Gentle words bring health and life, a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.

Chuck, pop quiz for you 'cause I know you'll get it:
"_ _ _ _ h without _ _ _ _ s is dead."



Faith /Works

However, why would you think this renders words subordinate?

With your heart you believe...with your mouth you confess and are saved (apart from works) because, by the works of the law no flesh is justified.

My experience has observed well intensioned people doing much harm with their actions. Doing the right thing the wrong way as a pastor friend once said. There is an arrogance of people who think their good deeds are more important than the words that reveal who they are. Words is what disqualified Trump regardless of his actions, because his actions was to look good and get re-elected.

Chip
October 29th, 2021, 10:16 PM
Appearance perhaps, performance probably not.

Depending on who's judging performance, and by what set of values.

Bernie Madoff, for instance, performed very well as a scam artist, stealing from his investors, until it all came crashing down.

kazoolaw
October 30th, 2021, 02:03 AM
Appearance perhaps, performance probably not.

Depending on who's judging performance, and by what set of values.

Bernie Madoff, for instance, performed very well as a scam artist, stealing from his investors, until it all came crashing down.

Odd: never thought of cheating and stealing as performing well.

kazoolaw
October 30th, 2021, 02:06 AM
Not "soley" and neither do actions build trust. It takes both. Often actions are not required and often words are all that is required. After all, the tongue reveals the heart. People can do nice things for the wrong reasons.

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but hard words stir up anger".
"Where words increase, transgression is unavoidable"
"Gentle words bring health and life, a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.

Chuck, pop quiz for you 'cause I know you'll get it:
"_ _ _ _ h without _ _ _ _ s is dead."



Faith /Works

However, why would you think this renders words subordinate?

With your heart you believe...with your mouth you confess and are saved (apart from works) because, by the works of the law no flesh is justified.

My experience has observed well intensioned people doing much harm with their actions. Doing the right thing the wrong way as a pastor friend once said. There is an arrogance of people who think their good deeds are more important than the words that reveal who they are. Words is what disqualified Trump regardless of his actions, because his actions was to look good and get re-elected.

Chuck-
Your first two words in post 104 show we agree.

Chuck Naill
October 30th, 2021, 06:30 AM
Not "soley" and neither do actions build trust. It takes both. Often actions are not required and often words are all that is required. After all, the tongue reveals the heart. People can do nice things for the wrong reasons.

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but hard words stir up anger".
"Where words increase, transgression is unavoidable"
"Gentle words bring health and life, a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.

Chuck, pop quiz for you 'cause I know you'll get it:
"_ _ _ _ h without _ _ _ _ s is dead."



Faith /Works

However, why would you think this renders words subordinate?

With your heart you believe...with your mouth you confess and are saved (apart from works) because, by the works of the law no flesh is justified.

My experience has observed well intensioned people doing much harm with their actions. Doing the right thing the wrong way as a pastor friend once said. There is an arrogance of people who think their good deeds are more important than the words that reveal who they are. Words is what disqualified Trump regardless of his actions, because his actions was to look good and get re-elected.

Chuck-
Your first two words in post 104 show we agree.


Great that you found something with which to agree.

Chip
October 31st, 2021, 02:10 PM
Odd: never thought of cheating and stealing as performing well.

How would you rate the performance of Senator McConnell? Please state your primary metrics.

kazoolaw
October 31st, 2021, 03:51 PM
Not sure why I'd want to do that.
But, since you asked...
"Primary metrics" isn't a term that I use, so I won't guess what you mean.
I would describe Mitch as the quintessential politician, masterful at using his knowledge of the game in the service of his political goals.

Chuck Naill
October 31st, 2021, 04:05 PM
Lol!

TSherbs
November 1st, 2021, 01:11 PM
Not sure why I'd want to do that.
But, since you asked...
"Primary metrics" isn't a term that I use, so I won't guess what you mean.
I would describe Mitch as the quintessential politician, masterful at using his knowledge of the game in the service of his political goals.
As was the Devil. Fortunately, Mitchell's reign in the hell of the Senate chamber will have to one day end, due to his human mortality (at the latest).

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

kazoolaw
November 1st, 2021, 03:01 PM
I would describe Mitch as the quintessential politician, masterful at using his knowledge of the game in the service of his political goals.
As was the Devil.

Just need one Daniel Webster.

Chip
November 1st, 2021, 04:29 PM
". . .the quintessential politician, masterful at using his knowledge of the game in the service of his political goals."

With no regard for morals, ethics, truth, decency, or fairness. That sounds about right.

dneal
November 1st, 2021, 06:15 PM
So now let's do the current Speaker of the House. How would one rate her performance, and with what primary metrics?

Chip
November 1st, 2021, 10:25 PM
I would give her high marks for honesty, decency, morals, ethics, fairness. She's mostly effective at mobilizing a fractious coalition, given a slight majority.

She can't do much about a minority, mostly cowards and cronies, committed to lies, nonsense, corruption, superstition, and Trump.

kazoolaw
November 2nd, 2021, 03:59 PM
See Post 121 above, plus a lux freezer with posh ice cream.

kazoolaw
November 2nd, 2021, 03:59 PM
I would give her high marks for honesty, decency, morals, ethics, fairness. She's mostly effective at mobilizing a fractious coalition, given a slight majority.

She can't do much about a minority, mostly cowards and cronies, committed to lies, nonsense, corruption, superstition, and Trump.

Chip, whoever said you have no sense of humor?

Chip
November 2nd, 2021, 04:51 PM
Whoever said you had no sense, period? :)

kazoolaw
November 2nd, 2021, 07:13 PM
Whoever said you had no sense, period? :)

No one, ever.

TSherbs
November 2nd, 2021, 07:32 PM
Whoever said we finish threads with any sense?

"No one, ever."

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

kazoolaw
November 3rd, 2021, 02:57 AM
if we can't laugh at ourselves, and with each other, then this is indeed a sad place.

Chuck Naill
November 3rd, 2021, 05:54 AM
:rolleyes:

Chip
November 3rd, 2021, 12:52 PM
if we can't laugh at ourselves, and with each other, then this is indeed a sad place.


Crocodile tears?

kazoolaw
November 3rd, 2021, 05:42 PM
if we can't laugh at ourselves, and with each other, then this is indeed a sad place.


Crocodile tears?

Chip, you livin' in da Nile?

Chip
November 4th, 2021, 04:39 PM
Naw, mate.

https://i.imgur.com/yEUh2sR.jpg

We got heaps Down Under.

Chuck Naill
November 5th, 2021, 01:28 PM
People died on January 6 in case anyone forgot.

dneal
November 5th, 2021, 04:51 PM
People died on January 6 in case anyone forgot.

This thread isn’t about January 6, since you forgot.

TSherbs
November 6th, 2021, 11:47 AM
So now let's do the current Speaker of the House. How would one rate her performance, and with what primary metrics?Any more than the thread is about this?

This thread is just sliding back into petty rivalries again.

"You suck."
"No, you suck."

Time to go write another pen pal (yes, I have a few). Got a new beautiful Chinese acrylic pen yesterday...

dneal
November 6th, 2021, 12:45 PM
And you're back to being the busybody... Do you really want to dig back and compare who has disrupted more threads with irrelevant nonsense?

TSherbs
November 6th, 2021, 12:55 PM
And you're back to being the busybody... Do you really want to dig back and compare who has disrupted more threads with irrelevant nonsense?"busybody"?

I actually tried to help you out on this thread, dneal.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Chuck Naill
November 6th, 2021, 01:50 PM
When you choose to sleep with the devil, @tsherbs, don’t complain about being anal fucked.

kazoolaw
November 6th, 2021, 02:50 PM
Chuck, if you had any doubt about where the line is in posting know that it's well in your rear view mirror with Post 139.

TSherbs
November 6th, 2021, 03:29 PM
Chuck, you ok?

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

dneal
November 6th, 2021, 05:20 PM
And you're back to being the busybody... Do you really want to dig back and compare who has disrupted more threads with irrelevant nonsense?"busybody"?

I actually tried to help you out on this thread, dneal.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Ok, but the particular quote you picked followed along with the (derailed) context. Chuck's post, like many of Chuck's posts; is random stuff out of the blue. They're not really comparable. Pointing out Chuck's random, no context (and often bizarre) posts to him is usually ineffective, but hey... I figured I would try again.

This thread has been beyond saving for some time, and your method of correcting appeared to not be an effort to help (to me). If I got it wrong, fair enough and sorry; but you did choose to insert yourself - hence the "busybody" remark.

Chuck Naill
November 7th, 2021, 05:51 AM
Chuck, you ok?

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

Yes. :)

Chip
November 7th, 2021, 04:17 PM
Satanism and sodomy?

Got distracted, I reckon.

Reckon we were on about crocs. Here's the Aussie sort:

https://i.imgur.com/vT5Fdpw.jpg

And here's the Yank species:

https://i.imgur.com/eluKmB0.jpg