PDA

View Full Version : Fraudster Brandon Cifani is on FPN as "penister"



kirchh
August 4th, 2013, 04:17 PM
The fraudster Brandon Cifani is currently posting false information on FPN under the username "penister". Addendum: Brandon Cifani has changed his FPN username (or had it changed) to "pen-lover".

Here is a sample thread. (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/249233-58/)

Some of Brandon Cifani's previous fraudulent activities are documented here (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2595-Brandon-Cifani-is-engaged-in-fraud).

--Daniel

Penne Stilografiche
August 4th, 2013, 04:31 PM
He tried to sell pens that he did not own to multiple members and he lied about what pens he owns. I think someone should report this scammer to the FBI, he is a danger to the fountain pen community.

reprieve
August 4th, 2013, 06:07 PM
What a loser.

Penne Stilografiche
August 4th, 2013, 07:09 PM
http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

I would suggest that someone file a complaint. You can do so at the above link.

I think kirchh should report him as he was the one who Brandon tried to scam in the first place.
http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2595-Brandon-Cifani-is-engaged-in-fraud

Jon Szanto
August 4th, 2013, 07:28 PM
I think kirchh should report him as he was the one who Brandon tried to scam in the first place.
http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2595-Brandon-Cifani-is-engaged-in-fraud
Um, you look kind of new around here. This guy has been on the radar for WELL over a year, on three different pen forums. Lots of people aware of his activities, no need to suggest who should be the policeman.

The kid is stupid and fraudulent. Just having everyone aware is enough at this point.

Jon Szanto
August 4th, 2013, 07:49 PM
That wasn't my intent, please don't be offended! I just wanted to make you aware that this was not an unknown situation for us around here.

Sent from my S4, just because...

Penne Stilografiche
August 4th, 2013, 07:52 PM
I think kirchh should report him as he was the one who Brandon tried to scam in the first place.
http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2595-Brandon-Cifani-is-engaged-in-fraud
Um, you look kind of new around here. This guy has been on the radar for WELL over a year, on three different pen forums. Lots of people aware of his activities, no need to suggest who should be the policeman.

The kid is stupid and fraudulent. Just having everyone aware is enough at this point.

I am new on this forum, I just joined today. I normally stay on the FPN, but I made an account on this forum to warn you of Brandon's latest scheme. I do not think having everyone aware is enough as he will keep trying to scam other collectors until he does so successfully. Up until today, when he was banned for the second time on the FPN, he had contacted numerous members trying to sell pens that he did not own. I think it is best for the sake of the pen collecting community if he is reported.

Jon Szanto
August 4th, 2013, 09:43 PM
Ok, gents, points well taken. Tell me, though: do you really think the FBI is going to go after a little fish like this? Is this even remotely realistic?

Marsilius
August 4th, 2013, 09:48 PM
The very nature if this topic leads to more suspicion. The sudden appearance of new members with no previous introduction who seem to be diving directly into this topic is consistent with the screwy procedures already found in previous discussions.
I am not making accusations, but stating the kinds of suspicions that arise . . .

Penne Stilografiche
August 4th, 2013, 10:38 PM
The very nature if this topic leads to more suspicion. The sudden appearance of new members with no previous introduction who seem to be diving directly into this topic is consistent with the screwy procedures already found in previous discussions.
I am not making accusations, but stating the kinds of suspicions that arise . . .

Hi,
I'm not "diving directly into this topic". Cifani was trying to deceive and scam me as well as many of the members of the FPN. Although he did not scam anyone this time (that I know of), I thought that it would be helpful to warn the members of the other pen forums. Also, I was following this thread before I became a member of FPG.
Best Regards

ppengel
August 4th, 2013, 10:45 PM
point taken, posts deleted. ill remember not to participate without being invited next time. but i dont see how this is "consistent with the screwy procedures already found in previous discussions".

AltecGreen
August 4th, 2013, 11:25 PM
point taken, posts deleted. ill remember not to participate without being invited next time. but i dont see how this is "consistent with the screwy procedures already found in previous discussions".



The topic of Brandon is quite old and goes back for more than one year. Much of the discussions that lead up to Daniel's post on FPG concerning Brandon took place over on FPB (the Fountain Pen Board) since Brandon has a fascination with the rare and expensive pens. I think it's pretty easy for those of use who hang out on FPB to assume everyone has already heard all of the Brandon stories.

Penne Stilografiche
August 4th, 2013, 11:40 PM
point taken, posts deleted. ill remember not to participate without being invited next time. but i dont see how this is "consistent with the screwy procedures already found in previous discussions".

The topic of Brandon is quite old and goes back for more than one year. Much of the discussions that lead up to Daniel's post on FPG concerning Brandon took place over on FPB (the Fountain Pen Board) since Brandon has a fascination with the rare and expensive pens. I think it's pretty easy for those of use who hang out on FPB to assume everyone has already heard all of the Brandon stories.

He may have a fascination with expensive pens but he tried to sell Wearever's to some members of the FPN, of which he never owned. I'm glad you already know about what this criminal does, my posts were made for those who don't. I was trying to get the word out about his new scheme so that the newer members and collectors would not get scammed. Also, I would just like to say that the FPN has a nicer atmosphere than that of this forum, it seems the senior members of this forum do not take kindly to the newer members.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

Marsilius
August 4th, 2013, 11:56 PM
"point taken, posts deleted. ill remember not to participate without being invited next time. but i dont see how this is "consistent with the screwy procedures already found in previous discussions"."


"Also, I would just like to say that the FPN has a nicer atmosphere than that of this forum, it seems the senior members of this forum do not take kindly to the newer members.

Best Regards
Vincenzo"

It was not my intention to un-invite anybody, offend anyone, or make anyone feel unwelcome. If you follow the old threads, however, you will see how I mean that they have sewn distrust, which was why I mentioned it here. I certainly hope Vincenzo and ppengel feel welcome to post on anything here, and that they will see just how welcoming people are here to all topics and viewpoints.

My sense is that there might a little less sugar on top here than at FPN, but that people are no less friendly, and hope you will stick around to see that to be true!

Laura N
August 5th, 2013, 12:23 AM
point taken, posts deleted. ill remember not to participate without being invited next time. but i dont see how this is "consistent with the screwy procedures already found in previous discussions".

The topic of Brandon is quite old and goes back for more than one year. Much of the discussions that lead up to Daniel's post on FPG concerning Brandon took place over on FPB (the Fountain Pen Board) since Brandon has a fascination with the rare and expensive pens. I think it's pretty easy for those of use who hang out on FPB to assume everyone has already heard all of the Brandon stories.

He may have a fascination with expensive pens but he tried to sell Wearever's to some members of the FPN, of which he never owned. I'm glad you already know about what this criminal does, my posts were made for those who don't. I was trying to get the word out about his new scheme so that the newer members and collectors would not get scammed. Also, I would just like to say that the FPN has a nicer atmosphere than that of this forum, it seems the senior members of this forum do not take kindly to the newer members.

Best Regards
Vincenzo


Geez, that's a shame. I hope you'll reconsider, and also ppengel. Of course no one needs an invitation to post. And no one should make you feel unwelcome. I'd guess that the vast majority of people here are grateful that you two took the time to post. I'm not a new member at all, but this was news to me. And the FPN thread was unintentionally hilarious. One thing these young scammers are is transparent. Sadly another thing they are is persistent. It's always good to be reminded of it, if you ask me.

So please stick around. Remember that many of us post quickly, off the top of our heads. I'm sure no offense was meant. And if we all had the same opinion, discussions wouldn't be as interesting.

AltecGreen
August 5th, 2013, 01:00 AM
He may have a fascination with expensive pens but he tried to sell Wearever's to some members of the FPN, of which he never owned. I'm glad you already know about what this criminal does, my posts were made for those who don't. I was trying to get the word out about his new scheme so that the newer members and collectors would not get scammed. Also, I would just like to say that the FPN has a nicer atmosphere than that of this forum, it seems the senior members of this forum do not take kindly to the newer members.

Best Regards
Vincenzo


I'm not exactly sure what I said in my post made you feel unwelcome here. I merely responded to the comment about 'previous discussions' by mentioning that there is a long history with Brandon and gave FPB as a place to look for some of those past discussions. My second comment was a little reminder to Jon Szanto that those of us who also hang out on FPB have been aware of Brandon for quite a while but others are not. As for reporting, if you want to go by precedence, I would say George Rimakis or David Issacson have that honor.

Whether "FPN has a nicer atmosphere" is an interesting point worthy of discussion. :) Also, far as I can tell the 'senior members of this forum' have participated in this thread are also senior members of FPN. Weird.

I like mango pudding
August 5th, 2013, 01:26 AM
He may have a fascination with expensive pens but he tried to sell Wearever's to some members of the FPN, of which he never owned. I'm glad you already know about what this criminal does, my posts were made for those who don't. I was trying to get the word out about his new scheme so that the newer members and collectors would not get scammed. Also, I would just like to say that the FPN has a nicer atmosphere than that of this forum, it seems the senior members of this forum do not take kindly to the newer members.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

weren't you the subject of questionable activities over at fpn a while ago, at first denying who you are when someone outed your buying history on ebay al the while trying to pawn off a self mutilated pen you bought because you didn't know how to put it back together.

ppengel
August 5th, 2013, 01:53 AM
In a simple response AltecGreen, I understood what you meant; mentioning that newer people may not be aware of the actions of Mr. Cifani.

In short my initial post in this thread suggested that someone report him, and I originally posted the link to the FBI Internet Crimes claims site. It was stated that we were new and that people know about this, but my point is that not everyone does. Prior to your post I had explained that it was a mere suggestion and that I know that it was far beyond my place of performing the reporting, but that many people specifically those that are new are unaware of Brandon, and that because of his most recent attempt to scam people these threads have resurfaced. I am now aware, but... people that are new could have easily become his prey. I further stated that if action was taken we could stop spending time in a thread that bears the idiots name and get back to whats important to everyone.. the pens.

As for if the FBI is going to go after a little fish like this question? and is it realistic... maybe. I don't know what is on the FBI's radar, but I can't imagine that reporting him would do harm. It could only do good, and worst case scenario nothing comes of it.

I have read through the entire FPG thread about Brandon, and most of the FPN one as well, and did so prior to even posting here. I feel that what is happening is fraudulent, and continuing to become more elaborate. Granted that does not mean its intelligent, but as a precaution and a measure of protection for the community as a whole, new and senior members included, I do not think the idea of filing a complaint is unreasonable.

The entire thread was abrasive, which I realize is sometimes the nature of forums to a degree (to a degree being the main point here). Although I had already stopped replying I think that when it was truly unwelcoming and offensive was at the mere suggestion that because I was a new member, and I'm not well known here that I'm suspicious or potentially fraudulent as well. That I had "suddenly appeared without previous introduction". Which is when I chose to delete all of my comments and stated that I wouldn't participate without invitation referring to the statement that I had not had "previous introduction". And beyond that that I was diving right into this topic which suggests "screwy" procedures. Comparing me to Brandon Cifani for being a new member in a forum is pretty harsh; especially if you have read all that everyone has to say about him. So apparently my participation arouses suspicions? I don't exactly understand that, I surely have not done anything fraudulent in any sense of the word. Maybe I misunderstood what was meant by these comments, but it didn't sound to friendly to me.

I do think that people on this forum are generally nice, I was just telling Mr. Goulet how kind all the people of the FP community are; although after this thread I thought I had spoken too soon. I believe that Vincenzo was making an effort to stand up for me, as it appeared that I was being bullied, and for that matter so was he. As for his dealings on FPN, I do not know him and I know nothing about his past, so I can not speak on that matter.


And as a little token, here the link to the new member forum, where I introduced myself.

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3431-Howdy-from-Texas

Jon Szanto
August 5th, 2013, 02:13 AM
Ooof. End of a long day at the end of a long week, but as long as there are mea culpas and bowing and scraping going on, I'll just clear up a couple of things. Well, I'll write a little bit; whether it clears things up, who knows?


My second comment was a little reminder to Jon Szanto that those of us who also hang out on FPB have been aware of Brandon for quite a while but others are not.
I would respond to the gentleman from NoCal, the Right Honorable AG, that indeed Danny K. had a voluminous posting regarding Brandon right here on FPG back in May (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2595-Brandon-Cifani-is-engaged-in-fraud). In fact, that very thread has been resurrected by the recent activities. While it is true that the most material and discussion occurred at FPB, as legendary thread as they come, in fact there was already ample documentation here as well.


So please stick around. Remember that many of us post quickly, off the top of our heads. I'm sure no offense was meant. And if we all had the same opinion, discussions wouldn't be as interesting.
Indeed, which is why I responded immediately upon learning that umbrage had been taken. You'll note that in Post #6, which now seems a bit weird as the post I was replying to has been deleted (I should have quoted, but it was as I was in the studio with the smaaahtphone and Tapatalk on Android is a bit new to me). Nonetheless, my sentiments were expressed.


He may have a fascination with expensive pens but he tried to sell Wearever's to some members of the FPN, of which he never owned. I'm glad you already know about what this criminal does, my posts were made for those who don't. I was trying to get the word out about his new scheme so that the newer members and collectors would not get scammed. Also, I would just like to say that the FPN has a nicer atmosphere than that of this forum, it seems the senior members of this forum do not take kindly to the newer members.
Hardly. On the other hand, one usually looks a little suspect when their first posts are casting aspersions on others. In this case, to many, Brandon was known. However...


Hi! I'm new to the forum, but I've been into pens for x years now. My favorite writer is an x, and I love to ink it up with y. I'm looking forward to getting to know some new pen people, discuss writing styles and pen shows, and all manner of fun activities.

I also thought I'd mention a situation that occurred on another pen forum, for the purpose of alerting people who weren't aware of a potential scammer on the loose. The details...

Yada yada. Lots of ways to introduce yourself to a new community, but take a second and think about the fact that we might have already been dealing with a lot of pen transaction weirdnesses, and a lot of "he said, she said". Now a new person comes aboard with the express intent of outing a bad pen deal - certainly laudable in this case - well, it may set off warning signals. But please, don't leave over just this! It is a fine pen community with it's own flavor, and it needn't be your only home, just another place to talk about pens with people who love them.

Yikes. I haven't gone this tl;dr in a long time. Sorry.

And good night.

Jon Szanto
August 5th, 2013, 02:32 AM
And as a little token, here the link to the new member forum, where I introduced myself.
Thank you for that, which I have now attended to. So much in life is circumstantial, and missing an introduction isn't unheard of. Please know that you are welcome here, as most of what goes on isn't bad news of the sort that this thread is revolving around.

Penne Stilografiche
August 5th, 2013, 11:21 AM
He may have a fascination with expensive pens but he tried to sell Wearever's to some members of the FPN, of which he never owned. I'm glad you already know about what this criminal does, my posts were made for those who don't. I was trying to get the word out about his new scheme so that the newer members and collectors would not get scammed. Also, I would just like to say that the FPN has a nicer atmosphere than that of this forum, it seems the senior members of this forum do not take kindly to the newer members.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

weren't you the subject of questionable activities over at fpn a while ago, at first denying who you are when someone outed your buying history on ebay al the while trying to pawn off a self mutilated pen you bought because you didn't know how to put it back together.

No and yes-ish,
I bought a parts pen with no nib and feed, a Sheaffer Jade Green Senior, and I put it up on ebay for sale. For some reason, the pen went from the $.99 starting bid to $60 including shipping, which is 6 times more than I valued it at. I posted a link to the ebay listing to ask if it was some type of rare variety, as my parts pen was selling for more than one in the same condition with a nib and feed. Many of the members told me that it was nothing special, so an hour after making the post I ended my ebay listing to sell it to the highest bidder for $60. I was new at the time and I did not know it was against the rules to post your own ebay listing. After the thread was long gone, one of the members brought it back up questioning me if it was my listing. It was known at the time that I was a minor, so I did not want anyone reporting my ebay account so I did something stupid; I lied. It ended up I got caught in that lie, and I admitted what I had done and I apologized to all of the members of the FPN. To this day, I can not get what I did out of my mind, it was the stupidest thing I have done in my life. I do not see what the point was of bringing that up, as I was not scamming anyone nor would I do anything that Brandon has done. I made a mistake and I swore to myself never repeat it.

As for my post regarding the nicer atmosphere, I said that regarding posts like this one: "diving directly into this topic is consistent with the screwy procedures already found in previous discussions." I wasn't taking "screwy procedures", I was making suggestions on how to deal with Brandon. He does not seem very bright and he does not seem like a good scam artist, but he habitually attempts to scam pen collectors, and I think he is still a threat. I, like most of the members of this forum, post quickly. I take back what I said, this forum as well as it's members do not seem that bad. Also, I just properly introduced myself, the introduction can be found below.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/3576-Hello-from-New-York?p=41427#post41427

Farmboy
August 5th, 2013, 12:13 PM
I've been known to say I have underwear older than most of the posters on the internet Pen Board referenced above. I'm beginning to wonder if I have underwear that is also smarter than the average poster.

Farmboy

Jon Szanto
August 5th, 2013, 12:26 PM
I've been known to say I have underwear older than most of the posters on the internet Pen Board referenced above. I'm beginning to wonder if I have underwear that is also smarter than the average poster.


4463

Penne Stilografiche
August 5th, 2013, 12:41 PM
I've been known to say I have underwear older than most of the posters on the internet Pen Board referenced above. I'm beginning to wonder if I have underwear that is also smarter than the average poster.


4463

+1.

Jon Szanto
August 5th, 2013, 12:47 PM
+1.
On the other hand, I know him, I love him (to a degree), and he'll understand completely.

Farmboy
August 5th, 2013, 01:22 PM
+1.
On the other hand, I know him, I love him (to a degree), and he'll understand completely.

Yeah the whole brotherhood thing and all so I expected no less.

dannzeman
August 5th, 2013, 01:50 PM
+1.
Please don't make these kinds of comments. They add no value to the discussion and just clutter the thread. Please hit the "Thanks" button instead.

Penne Stilografiche
August 5th, 2013, 02:03 PM
+1.
Please don't make these kinds of comments. They add no value to the discussion and just clutter the thread. Please hit the "Thanks" button instead.

Sorry about that, I guess it is hard to transition from the fountain pen network.

aschup
August 5th, 2013, 02:57 PM
I bought a parts pen with no nib and feed, a Sheaffer Jade Green Senior, and I put it up on ebay for sale. For some reason, the pen went from the $.99 starting bid to $60 including shipping, which is 6 times more than I valued it at. I posted a link to the ebay listing to ask if it was some type of rare variety, as my parts pen was selling for more than one in the same condition with a nib and feed. Many of the members told me that it was nothing special, so an hour after making the post I ended my ebay listing to sell it to the highest bidder for $60. I was new at the time and I did not know it was against the rules to post your own ebay listing. After the thread was long gone, one of the members brought it back up questioning me if it was my listing. It was known at the time that I was a minor, so I did not want anyone reporting my ebay account so I did something stupid; I lied. It ended up I got caught in that lie, and I admitted what I had done and I apologized to all of the members of the FPN. To this day, I can not get what I did out of my mind, it was the stupidest thing I have done in my life. I do not see what the point was of bringing that up, as I was not scamming anyone nor would I do anything that Brandon has done. I made a mistake and I swore to myself never repeat it.
Bro if that's the dumbest thing you have ever done in your life, you lead an exceptionally boring life.

Penne Stilografiche
August 5th, 2013, 03:10 PM
I bought a parts pen with no nib and feed, a Sheaffer Jade Green Senior, and I put it up on ebay for sale. For some reason, the pen went from the $.99 starting bid to $60 including shipping, which is 6 times more than I valued it at. I posted a link to the ebay listing to ask if it was some type of rare variety, as my parts pen was selling for more than one in the same condition with a nib and feed. Many of the members told me that it was nothing special, so an hour after making the post I ended my ebay listing to sell it to the highest bidder for $60. I was new at the time and I did not know it was against the rules to post your own ebay listing. After the thread was long gone, one of the members brought it back up questioning me if it was my listing. It was known at the time that I was a minor, so I did not want anyone reporting my ebay account so I did something stupid; I lied. It ended up I got caught in that lie, and I admitted what I had done and I apologized to all of the members of the FPN. To this day, I can not get what I did out of my mind, it was the stupidest thing I have done in my life. I do not see what the point was of bringing that up, as I was not scamming anyone nor would I do anything that Brandon has done. I made a mistake and I swore to myself never repeat it.
Bro if that's the dumbest thing you have ever done in your life, you lead an exceptionally boring life.

:cry: I do have a boring life....... But really, it seems I left out some words, "it was the stupidest thing I have done in my life on the internet".

mmahany
August 5th, 2013, 03:36 PM
I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about the concept of using ebay when you're under 18. I used ebay back in 2003 when I was 15 years old. Guess what, I didn't do anything wrong or violate a single rule.

Straight off of eBay's website.
"A person under 18 can use an adult's account with the permission of the account holder. However, the account holder is responsible for everything done with that account."

Penne Stilografiche
August 5th, 2013, 04:10 PM
I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about the concept of using ebay when you're under 18. I used ebay back in 2003 when I was 15 years old. Guess what, I didn't do anything wrong or violate a single rule.

Straight off of eBay's website.
"A person under 18 can use an adult's account with the permission of the account holder. However, the account holder is responsible for everything done with that account."

I complete agree with you. My parents oversee everything I do on ebay, yet a couple certain members of the FPN made a big deal of it when they found out that I was a minor on ebay. Also, I do not think ebay cares about what age you are, but how much money you make them. I just paid $160 in monthly ebay fees just for selling 11 pens.

Laura N
August 5th, 2013, 04:30 PM
I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about the concept of using ebay when you're under 18. I used ebay back in 2003 when I was 15 years old. Guess what, I didn't do anything wrong or violate a single rule.

Straight off of eBay's website.
"A person under 18 can use an adult's account with the permission of the account holder. However, the account holder is responsible for everything done with that account."

I complete agree with you. My parents oversee everything I do on ebay, yet a couple certain members of the FPN made a big deal of it when they found out that I was a minor on ebay. Also, I do not think ebay cares about what age you are, but how much money you make them. I just paid $160 in monthly ebay fees just for selling 11 pens.

Minors can't legally make contracts, so eBay cares very much how old you are.

You do not fit within the rule by claiming that your parents oversee your activities. It's simple. Use an adult's account and you are fine. Open your own account and you are not.

KrazyIvan
August 5th, 2013, 04:32 PM
I don't think there is any legal precedent with regards to an eBay account usage by a minor but since a minor cannot legally enter into a contract, and according to eBay, your bid constitutes a contract, there may be some legal maneuver to challenge that. (I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV).

EDIT, and Laura beat me to it.

Penne Stilografiche
August 5th, 2013, 04:39 PM
I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about the concept of using ebay when you're under 18. I used ebay back in 2003 when I was 15 years old. Guess what, I didn't do anything wrong or violate a single rule.

Straight off of eBay's website.
"A person under 18 can use an adult's account with the permission of the account holder. However, the account holder is responsible for everything done with that account."

I complete agree with you. My parents oversee everything I do on ebay, yet a couple certain members of the FPN made a big deal of it when they found out that I was a minor on ebay. Also, I do not think ebay cares about what age you are, but how much money you make them. I just paid $160 in monthly ebay fees just for selling 11 pens.

Minors can't legally make contracts, so eBay cares very much how old you are.

You do not fit within the rule by claiming that your parents oversee your activities. It's simple. Use an adult's account and you are fine. Open your own account and you are not.

Is there a way to sign an account over to someone else?
Thanks

Laura N
August 5th, 2013, 05:09 PM
I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about the concept of using ebay when you're under 18. I used ebay back in 2003 when I was 15 years old. Guess what, I didn't do anything wrong or violate a single rule.

Straight off of eBay's website.
"A person under 18 can use an adult's account with the permission of the account holder. However, the account holder is responsible for everything done with that account."

I complete agree with you. My parents oversee everything I do on ebay, yet a couple certain members of the FPN made a big deal of it when they found out that I was a minor on ebay. Also, I do not think ebay cares about what age you are, but how much money you make them. I just paid $160 in monthly ebay fees just for selling 11 pens.

Minors can't legally make contracts, so eBay cares very much how old you are.

You do not fit within the rule by claiming that your parents oversee your activities. It's simple. Use an adult's account and you are fine. Open your own account and you are not.

Is there a way to sign an account over to someone else?
Thanks

You should contact them. Their user agreement governs your account. I would guess the answer is no, simply for administrative reasons, but you never know. Look, the worst that will happen is you'll lose your feedback. But it's worth it to do things the right way. It will say a lot for your character. Anyone can make a mistake; fixing it demonstrates what kind of person you are.

ardgedee
August 6th, 2013, 06:11 AM
Minors can't legally make contracts, so eBay cares very much how old you are.

You do not fit within the rule by claiming that your parents oversee your activities. It's simple. Use an adult's account and you are fine. Open your own account and you are not.

I'm a web developer by profession, and have occasional projects that are strictly regulated by (United States) laws regarding access by minors. This leads to myself and my team having to incorporate various kinds access controls and functional blocks that are toggled by the user's age.

So, while I'm not a lawyer, and I can't comment on how Ebay does things (aside from agreeing that, indeed, Ebay cares that you are old enough), I do know that this isn't quite as cut and dried as "Minors can't legally make contracts". Otherwise my job would be a lot simpler, and there'd also be a lot less work to go around among myself and my peers.

For example, registering with a website in any way, regardless of whether money changes hands, and regardless of the participant's age, is treated as a contractual agreement; that the site's owner and participant both agree to be bound to rules of conduct. In general if the participant is under the age of 13, COPPA (http://www.coppa.org) regulations apply. If the participant is between 13 and 18, they can create their own accounts with the supervision of an adult.

Laura N
August 6th, 2013, 07:54 AM
Minors can't legally make contracts, so eBay cares very much how old you are.

You do not fit within the rule by claiming that your parents oversee your activities. It's simple. Use an adult's account and you are fine. Open your own account and you are not.

I'm a web developer by profession, and have occasional projects that are strictly regulated by (United States) laws regarding access by minors. This leads to myself and my team having to incorporate various kinds access controls and functional blocks that are toggled by the user's age.

So, while I'm not a lawyer, and I can't comment on how Ebay does things (aside from agreeing that, indeed, Ebay cares that you are old enough), I do know that this isn't quite as cut and dried as "Minors can't legally make contracts". Otherwise my job would be a lot simpler, and there'd also be a lot less work to go around among myself and my peers.

For example, registering with a website in any way, regardless of whether money changes hands, and regardless of the participant's age, is treated as a contractual agreement; that the site's owner and participant both agree to be bound to rules of conduct. In general if the participant is under the age of 13, COPPA (http://www.coppa.org) regulations apply. If the participant is between 13 and 18, they can create their own accounts with the supervision of an adult.

I guess I can see why this might be confusing. But federal regs regarding children's online privacy do not govern contract law regarding buying and selling of goods. Minors do not have the legal capacity to make contracts on eBay. And eBay does not allow minors to become registered users (for that reason). It is, in fact, that cut and dried.

I know 13 is the magic age for internet accounts. But a 13-year-old opening a Facebook account does not involve any of the same issues as a 13-year-old who lists goods for sale on eBay or bids for them. An eBay listing or bid is a promise to buy or sell at a future time when certain conditions are met -- in other words, it is an offer to enter into a purchase contract, which is executory. Similarly, a 13-year-old can't commit to join the military at 18, or to play football for USC at 18. He can buy a burger or join a social networking site.

mmahany
August 6th, 2013, 09:52 AM
Similarly, a 13-year-old can't commit to join the military at 18, or to play football for USC at 18. He can buy a burger or join a social networking site.

This is somewhat relevant, but with a NLI (National Letter of Intent) a minor can enter into a binding contract as long as the parent has also signed it as well. I personally did this myself after signing my NLI for a college baseball scholarship at 17 years old.

The NCAA doesn’t have many restrictions based solely on your age. The majority of the rules are based on your grade level. Technically, a 13 year old could legally sign into a binding contract to play for USC as long as they were contacted on July 1st after their Junior year of high school and the NLI was signed by their parent/guardian.

How this is relevant- parent supervision is the key with most contractual obligations.

Freddie
August 6th, 2013, 01:11 PM
Intriguing...

Oh...usin' M1000 I purchased 15 years ago...

Fred
who passed through the Soldiers and Sailors Memorial Arch in Grand Army Plaza,
city of Brooklyn...

edit...mistakes do happen...Up for sale today is a vintage Jade Greed Sheaffer Senior Fountain pen. I accidently broke the nib, and when trying to remove the other part of the nib I broke the feed :( . It can be repaired, it just needs a new nib, feed, and sac, as the body and cap is in beautiful shape. Bidding starts @ $0.99 with FREE SHIPPING and NO RESERVE!!!

Thanks for stopping by and have a great day!!!


http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/246977-i-just-dont-get-it-ebay/

Penne Stilografiche
August 6th, 2013, 01:37 PM
Intriguing...

Oh...usin' M1000 I purchased 15 years ago...

Fred
who passed through the Soldiers and Sailors Memorial Arch in Grand Army Plaza,
city of Brooklyn...

Hi Fred,
Sorry to be off topic but I have to ask, what part of New York do you live on? I always thought you lived on the "Gold Coast" of California. It's nice to see the amount of pen collectors in New York.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

Freddie
August 6th, 2013, 02:52 PM
Hi Fred,
Sorry to be off topic but I have to ask, what part of New York do you live on? I always thought you lived on the "Gold Coast" of California. It's nice to see the amount of pen collectors in New York.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=d813d285c2aecddf&q=gold+coast+long+island

Consider goin' over to FPN and read..never said I currently live on west coast..but I do have home
on gold coast and apt in Manhattan..btw it's just me & wife..our four sons are married..grandchildren
and I have a granddaughter your age..who can do basic fountain pen repair {writes with them..too}
and an outstanding equestrian...
life is good...

Fred
I know it when I see it.~ Justice Potter Stewart concurring in Jacobellis v. Ohio...

Penne Stilografiche
August 6th, 2013, 03:08 PM
Hi Fred,
Sorry to be off topic but I have to ask, what part of New York do you live on? I always thought you lived on the "Gold Coast" of California. It's nice to see the amount of pen collectors in New York.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=d813d285c2aecddf&q=gold+coast+long+island

Consider goin' over to FPN and read..never said I currently live on west coast..but I do have home
on gold coast and apt in Manhattan..btw it's just me & wife..our four sons are married..grandchildren
and I have a granddaughter your age..who can do basic fountain pen repair {writes with them..too}
and an outstanding equestrian...
life is good...

Fred
I know it when I see it.~ Justice Potter Stewart concurring in Jacobellis v. Ohio...

Oops.... I assumed the "Gold Coast" was the same thing as the "Golden Coast", a nickname of California.... Well again, nice to see some pen collectors in NY.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

Penne Stilografiche
August 6th, 2013, 05:46 PM
mistakes do happen

Yes Fred,
Mistake do happen, and those who make mistakes should be forgiven.


Best Regards
Vincenzo

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” -Gandhi

tenney
August 6th, 2013, 05:58 PM
Speaking of e-bay...

As I understand it, e-bay's contract and rules say that it is explicitly a violation of their terms of usage to offer for sale items that you do not (even "yet") own. That's not saying that some sellers do it and get away with it, but only that legal or not /or/ ethical or not, doing that is not allowed on e-bay.

Penne Stilografiche
August 6th, 2013, 06:03 PM
Speaking of e-bay...

As I understand it, e-bay's contract and rules say that it is explicitly a violation of their terms of usage to offer for sale items that you do not (even "yet") own. That's not saying that some sellers do it and get away with it, but only that legal or not /or/ ethical or not, doing that is not allowed on e-bay.

I do not think Brandon sold anything on ebay, he only bought things.

Freddie
August 6th, 2013, 06:11 PM
Vin ..read your response very carefully..
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/246977-i-just-dont-get-it-ebay/

and what you wrote here..

Fred
say good night
good nite

Penne Stilografiche
August 6th, 2013, 06:45 PM
Vin ..read your response very carefully..
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/246977-i-just-dont-get-it-ebay/

and what you wrote here..

Fred
say good night
good nite

I don't understand your point. I described exactly what happened,
1) I said I asked a question about a pen I was selling
2) I was questioned if it was my listing about 11/2 weeks after the last post was made and the item was ended early
3) I was informed that what I had done was against the rules on the FPN
4) I lied about who owned the account to protect it
5) I was caught up in my lie
6) I admitted what I had done and apologized, end of story.

You told me you had nothing against me, yet it seems like it is the exact opposite. I had apologized to you many times (including when I apologized to you 2 hours ago, check your inbox) Please tell me, what is your point, if you have one? I'm a very honest person, but I am still human. I lied, I am sorry. I hate that most of humanity remembers only the bad deeds that a person has done, and non of the good deeds. I hope you can forgive me, from one pen collector to another.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” -Gandhi

Penne Stilografiche
August 6th, 2013, 07:50 PM
Vin ..read your response very carefully..
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/246977-i-just-dont-get-it-ebay/

and what you wrote here..

Fred
say good night
good nite

I don't understand your point. I described exactly what happened,
1) I said I asked a question about a pen I was selling
2) I was questioned if it was my listing about 11/2 weeks after the last post was made and the item was ended early
3) I was informed that what I had done was against the rules on the FPN
4) I lied about who owned the account to protect it
5) I was caught up in my lie
6) I admitted what I had done and apologized, end of story.

You told me you had nothing against me, yet it seems like it is the exact opposite. I had apologized to you many times (including when I apologized to you 2 hours ago, check your inbox) Please tell me, what is your point, if you have one? I'm a very honest person, but I am still human. I lied, I am sorry. I hate that most of humanity remembers only the bad deeds that a person has done, and non of the good deeds. I hope you can forgive me, from one pen collector to another.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” -Gandhi

Also Fred,
What does this have to do with Brandon Cifani? I lied, I did not scam anyone, I did not attempt to steal from anyone, I did not steal intellectual property from anyone. I am human, I made a stupid mistake. This thread was made to warn people of a scammer, not for you to bring up the past mistakes that I have made. What do you want from me? Ever since I stated that I had a Pelikan 250 with a flexible 18k gold nib, you have been trying to make me look like a bad person as you did not believe me. As I said before, I am very kind to the people around me and I am a very honest person. You even had the audacity to call me a liar about the Pelikan (see link below), and when I tried to send you the writing samples you requested to prove it was indeed a Pelikan 250 with a flexible nib, I found out you blocked me from pm-ing you on the FPN. Please tell me what you want me to do to change your obviously negative opinion about me. You do not know me, I do not know you. Pease do not judge me based on one mistake I have made.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/240213-upgraded-pelikan-250/?hl=%2Bfake+%2Bpelikan#entry2603158
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/239403-fake-pelikan/?hl=%2Bfake+%2Bpelikan

Best Regards
Vincenzo

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” -Gandhi
No extra charge for the cold shower ~ W.C. Fields~

Penne Stilografiche
August 6th, 2013, 08:10 PM
Intriguing...

Oh...usin' M1000 I purchased 15 years ago...

Fred
who passed through the Soldiers and Sailors Memorial Arch in Grand Army Plaza,
city of Brooklyn...

edit...mistakes do happen...Up for sale today is a vintage Jade Green Sheaffer Senior Fountain pen. I accidently broke the nib, and when trying to remove the other part of the nib I broke the feed :( . It can be repaired, it just needs a new nib, feed, and sac, as the body and cap is in beautiful shape. Bidding starts @ $0.99 with FREE SHIPPING and NO RESERVE!!!

Thanks for stopping by and have a great day!!!


http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/246977-i-just-dont-get-it-ebay/

Thank You for pointing that out? You made it seem that I was completely off with my description of what happened. I got one minor detail mixed up. I said in my description that I broke the nib and feed (which is what happened, although I was removing it because the nib was already cracked and I wanted to see if I could fix it/ polish it), and I stated here I bought a parts pen with no nib and feed. Couldn't you have just pointed out my exact mistake in the first place?

Best Regards
Vincenzo

Farmboy
August 6th, 2013, 10:10 PM
Speaking of e-bay...

As I understand it, e-bay's contract and rules say that it is explicitly a violation of their terms of usage to offer for sale items that you do not (even "yet") own. That's not saying that some sellers do it and get away with it, but only that legal or not /or/ ethical or not, doing that is not allowed on e-bay.

I do not think Brandon sold anything on ebay, he only bought things.
His efforts to sell on eBay could be classified as an entirely different set of issues.

CS388
August 7th, 2013, 07:13 AM
I hate that most of humanity remembers only the bad deeds that a person has done, and non of the good deeds. [/B]

The evil that men do lives after them
The good is oft interred with their bones.

MarK Antony - Julius Caesar. William Shakespeare

cedargirl
August 7th, 2013, 10:22 PM
Why did I just read through this entire thread??

Penne Stilografiche
August 7th, 2013, 11:55 PM
Why did I just read through this entire thread??

Je ne sais pas.

HughC
August 8th, 2013, 04:24 AM
Gee, I'm a bit late to this "party"...

No doubt Brandon has been a "problem" in the hobby for a while so that he's back at it again is no surprise. It's a complicated issue and I do believe it's not just "fraud" as such, I believe he has a mental issue/s that needs attention and those that have read my comments before will know this is a long held opinion. Still that doesn't excuse his behavior, nor of course does it mean I'm correct or even near the mark, but it may explain some of his actions. The reality is unless he gets the "right" help his future will be far from ideal....a view through bars. I keep thinking he'll improve but it doesn't happen, anyway he's best avoided when it comes to selling pens.

Regards
Hugh

ardgedee
August 8th, 2013, 05:25 AM
Brandon's actually been burning through available public sympathy in a series of hobbies forums over the course of a couple years.

To the best of my knowledge he started his wheeling and dealing in head-fi.org. I can recall being one of the people there answering his questions about audio equipment since he seemed like an earnest, curious kid, before he began trying to sell merchandise that he didn't have in a really incompetent attempt at arbitrage. He got permanently banned there; the membership's pretty quick to close ranks against fraudsters. Then he went on to luxury watches and seemed to get kicked out of those forums pretty quickly. Now he's landed in the fountain pen arena and seems to be hanging on because people are willing to cut him more slack than he gets in other communities.

I agree that it would be best for him to get help and I would like nothing better than to know he's rehabilitated. But that's a matter for himself and his family to work out, with or without the assistance of law enforcement. In the meanwhile I think the best way to deal with him is to not deal with him at all, and to ensure nobody else does either.

One of the rules of thumb in the audio world is to include a slip of paper with your forum handle written on it when you take photos of the goods you're selling. This is a good idea and I'd like to see it done everywhere; it not only proves that you are the person selling the stuff shown in your photos -- it makes it harder for people like Brandon to claim ownership of the same photos without resorting to (usually easily detectable) image editing.

picautomaton
August 8th, 2013, 09:36 AM
Is Brandon really a kid, or, is he just pretending to be very young in order to get people to cut him slack and sympathy?

KrazyIvan
August 8th, 2013, 09:38 AM
Is Brandon really a kid, or, is he just pretending to be very young in order to get people to cut him slack and sympathy?

My thoughts exactly. Can anyone prove he really is a kid?

Penne Stilografiche
August 8th, 2013, 10:25 AM
Is Brandon really a kid, or, is he just pretending to be very young in order to get people to cut him slack and sympathy?

My thoughts exactly. Can anyone prove he really is a kid?

He looks like a kid, see his Google+ profile.
https://plus.google.com/100428378809615332625/posts

KrazyIvan
August 8th, 2013, 10:49 AM
I cannot go to Google+ from here but pictures and a social network profile do not prove anything. I can go and make a profile for a 13 year old kid with pictures and a social profile very easily. For the record, I am not a 13 year old kid although sometimes I wish I was. :p

Penne Stilografiche
August 8th, 2013, 11:08 AM
I cannot go to Google+ from here but pictures and a social network profile do not prove anything. I can go and make a profile for a 13 year old kid with pictures and a social profile very easily. For the record, I am not a 13 year old kid although sometimes I wish I was. :p

He also seems to have facebook "friends" from the same high school that he claimed he went to. I think he is just a stupid kid.

Jon Szanto
August 8th, 2013, 11:39 AM
One can "think" all one wishes, but the business about whether or not he is a 'kid' is not only a distraction, but at best being supported by circumstantial evidence (definition, in case anyone forgot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence)). Best to stick with known facts.

ardgedee
August 8th, 2013, 12:14 PM
He'd claimed to be (and acted like) a high schooler in his pre-fraud days on Head-Fi. I can believe he's either in high school or a recent graduate.

I don't think it matters, though. His age is not an excuse for his behavior, nor is it a reason for a community to tolerate it.

david i
August 8th, 2013, 11:48 PM
Is Brandon really a kid, or, is he just pretending to be very young in order to get people to cut him slack and sympathy?

My thoughts exactly. Can anyone prove he really is a kid?

Someone claims to be his mother Yvonne, about the right age, with an Yvonne Cifani per google search at this address

[edited by dannzeman to remove personal contact information.]

Make of it what you will...

regards

david

Penne Stilografiche
August 10th, 2013, 01:28 PM
So Vin..Where exactly did I call you a liar?..Nope never did..

YOU Never tried to send this thread a writing sample{nor do I care }.Hmm..Did I

twist your arm..Vin...Nope I Did Not..You found out I blocked you ..

after I received Your PM..Dated 6/14/2013 at 8:14:01 PM Title..

"Cher Fred" and I did this 'cause you're a minor {15yo} and it

is not appropriate for Adults to engage a minor this way..considering your

history..Dig it..So..Vin who is lying..Yo..Vin..above..you're trying to apologize

and in the next sentence you're calling me a liar...Fascintain'..ain't it..Could it

be that you have Not Slept in Two days..Just sayin'..I wish you the best in the future..

Have a great weekend and I appreciate that you're 15..No need to respond...



Fred




Fred,

please tell me what you meant by the bellow



Do not consider it proof just because it is written
in books {or online} --for a liar who deceives with
his tongue will not hesitate to do the same with
his pen..<smile>



this was one of your responses in one of the posts I made about my Pelikan 250. You were calling me a liar by posting the above. You just said I was lying "vin, who is lying", about me trying to send you pictures of the writing sample? I tried to send you the sample, and I found out you blocked me. Where did I lie when I said this to you? I swear to God I tried to send this pictures to you, so you have no right to say I was lying when I said that. I did call you a liar because you told me " I have nothing against you". You try to publically humiliate me for one mistake that I have made in the past. This thread was about Brandon Cifani and you had to bring me up. I would also like to tell you why it was so flexible. It seems that whomever owned this weird frankenpen tried to grind the nib to a stub. I noticed that the iridium as well as the gold behind it was very thin, almost as if it had been sanded down. The iridium was very smooth but there was obvious scratches underneath the nib on the gold part. I still do not know for a fact how the nib ended up with the 250, but what I do know is that the only other pen to have such a nib is the 390. Please tell me when I lied, I do not like when people lie about me.

Best Regards

Vincenzo

Penne Stilografiche
August 10th, 2013, 10:50 PM
So Vin..Where exactly did I call you a liar?..Nope never did..

YOU Never tried to send this thread a writing sample{nor do I care }.Hmm..Did I

twist your arm..Vin...Nope I Did Not..You found out I blocked you ..

after I received Your PM..Dated 6/14/2013 at 8:14:01 PM Title..

"Cher Fred" and I did this 'cause you're a minor {15yo} and it

is not appropriate for Adults to engage a minor this way..considering your

history..Dig it..So..Vin who is lying..Yo..Vin..above..you're trying to apologize

and in the next sentence you're calling me a liar...Fascintain'..ain't it..Could it

be that you have Not Slept in Two days..Just sayin'..I wish you the best in the future..

Have a great weekend and I appreciate that you're 15..No need to respond...



Fred




Fred,

please tell me what you meant by the bellow



Do not consider it proof just because it is written
in books {or online} --for a liar who deceives with
his tongue will not hesitate to do the same with
his pen..<smile>



this was one of your responses in one of the posts I made about my Pelikan 250. You were calling me a liar by posting the above. You just said I was lying "vin, who is lying", about me trying to send you pictures of the writing sample? I tried to send you the sample, and I found out you blocked me. Where did I lie when I said this to you? I swear to God I tried to send this pictures to you, so you have no right to say I was lying when I said that. I did call you a liar because you told me " I have nothing against you". You try to publically humiliate me for one mistake that I have made in the past. This thread was about Brandon Cifani and you had to bring me up. I would also like to tell you why it was so flexible. It seems that whomever owned this weird frankenpen tried to grind the nib to a stub. I noticed that the iridium as well as the gold behind it was very thin, almost as if it had been sanded down. The iridium was very smooth but there was obvious scratches underneath the nib on the gold part. I still do not know for a fact how the nib ended up with the 250, but what I do know is that the only other pen to have such a nib is the 390. Please tell me when I lied, I do not like when people lie about me.

Best Regards

Vincenzo

No answer, I wonder why...... Fred, please do not make up lies about me anymore.
Thanks

Freddie
August 11th, 2013, 11:16 AM
Kid..still projecting..don't hold your breath..Ain't wastin' my time..going around in circles
with you..anymore...

Vin..wonder no more...Editing so you can go back to the thread in question..

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/240213-upgraded-pelikan-250/
(http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/240213-upgraded-pelikan-250/)

"I really can't tell you anything else."
~ Rev. Vincent Cooke re Inisfada...

Fred
Teach thy tongue to say I do not know--
and thou shalt progress...Guess who..Philosopher,Jurist,Physician...
Fascinatin'...

Penne Stilografiche
August 11th, 2013, 01:09 PM
Kid..still projecting..don't hold your breath..Ain't wastin' my time..going around in circles
with you..anymore...

Vin..wonder no more...Editing so you can go back to the thread in question..

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/240213-upgraded-pelikan-250/
(http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/240213-upgraded-pelikan-250/)

"I really can't tell you anything else."
~ Rev. Vincent Cooke re Inisfada...

Fred
Teach thy tongue to say I do not know--
and thou shalt progress...Guess who..Philosopher,Jurist,Physician...
Fascinatin'...

Fred,
Could you please just give me the answer to my question?

"No hard feelings, no holding grudges. Everyone is human and no one is perfect." -unknown

Freddie
August 11th, 2013, 01:22 PM
Yo..dude..freakin' learn how to read..now..
If You wanna play with yourself..be my guest..

Thick as a brick...

Fred

Penne Stilografiche
August 11th, 2013, 01:38 PM
Yo..dude..freakin' learn how to read..now..
If You wanna play with yourself..be my guest..

Thick as a brick...

Fred

Fred,
Thank you for offending me on multiple occasions. I am not stupid "thick as a brick", I am not a grifter, I am not illiterate, I am not a bad person. You seem like a good person, you have helped many people (including me) in the past. I respect you for your contributions on this forum as well as many others. I am sorry for anything I have done in the past. I would just like to move on from the past and into the present. I no longer want to "fight" over the internet with you, there is no point to it. Humans do make mistakes, I hope you can forgive me for mine.

Sincerely,
Vincenzo

"No hard feelings, no holding grudges. Everyone is human and no one is perfect." -unknown

Pendragon
August 11th, 2013, 06:29 PM
No answer, I wonder why...... Fred, please do not make up lies about me anymore.
Thanks

On the Internet, how are we to know what are lies and what is the truth? Not a rhetorical question, by the way.

Ray-VIgo
August 19th, 2013, 08:55 PM
Poor pen collector, sub-mediocre fraud, excellent troll.

david i
August 20th, 2013, 03:05 AM
Yo..dude..freakin' learn how to read..now..
If You wanna play with yourself..be my guest..

Thick as a brick...

Fred

Freddie appears to have hostility issues...

Just sayin'...

regards

d

dannzeman
August 20th, 2013, 06:38 AM
I think kirchh's point has been made and the thread is sufficiently off topic to shut 'er down. It's been...entertaining.