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TSherbs
December 4th, 2021, 07:44 AM
As more variants of Covid spread around the world, and as more and more it becomes clear that there are no geographical or political barriers to the spread of viral epidemics, and as the numbers show how effectively the new vaxes reduce hospitalizations and death, I wonder if health insurance providers will begin to make separate rates and forms of coverage for the vaxxed and unvaxxed. This is already done for life insurance and auto insurance (all sorts of actuarial factors). I am conflicted over this, seeing merits to both sides, but I also have not much really thought about it. I am on the one hand in favor of universal health care, but on the other I have spent the last two nights in the hospital (family) and witnessed first hand the persons laying on beds in hallways because the hospital is now actually over capacity (not all of it is Covid, but most of it is -- info from nurse). The stress on staff is visible on the faces and in their voices, and material resources are being used up more quickly, etc, etc.

As a society, through some decisions and then likely court cases, we may be asked to make some kind of larger decision about this (I'm speculating, of course).

Chuck Naill
December 4th, 2021, 08:04 AM
Discounts for car and heath insurance where good drivers and non smokers has been around for some time. Seems the discounts are hinging on voluntary actions.

TSherbs
December 4th, 2021, 11:34 AM
Or, a kind of surcharge on the choice not to vaccinate.

Chuck Naill
December 4th, 2021, 11:49 AM
Or, a kind of surcharge on the choice not to vaccinate.

Would you agree that unsafe driving and not choosing to quit smoking increased premiums is also a surcharge? I see it more as a risk assessment.

TSherbs
December 4th, 2021, 12:11 PM
Or, a kind of surcharge on the choice not to vaccinate.

Would you agree that unsafe driving and not choosing to quit smoking increased premiums is also a surcharge? I see it more as a risk assessment.
Yes, I mean the same thing.

I just also have a strong sense of universal shared burden for basic health care. So there is that, too.

Bold2013
December 4th, 2021, 12:31 PM
I would favor charging more for HTN, obesity, and diabetes than giving a price break for Covid vaccines (these are the really reason most people with covid die and for the most part are preventable).

dneal
December 4th, 2021, 04:14 PM
I hope this isn't too much of a digression, but I think it's in the same vein.

I'm not necessarily opposed to universal health care. The main problem is the "all you can eat" mentality that may result, and/or the "rationing" problem. I can clarify those if needs be.

The German system (my understanding of it, anyway) is interesting. They pay into their system, and if they maintain their health and don't use the system other than routine exams; they get a rebate. That's a pretty powerful incentive to a German. Their culture encourages good diet and exercise. Weekends (particularly Sundays) are for walking, biking, etc... Cash-rebates probably encourage that.

But, if they don't go to their exams (or treatments) and problems are not caught (or get worse), they can be held responsible for the increased costs to the system.

I don't see that as viable with current U.S. culture. We generally do a poor to horrible job of maintaining health. Just look at our obesity problem (which begs a question on should they pay more...?).

Chip
December 26th, 2021, 10:41 PM
Perhaps relevant. Might refusing vaccination, masking, or other public health measures be a basis for treating a death from COVID as self-inflicted? Insurance companies don't like paying out huge sums in such cases.

"Insurance companies consider deaths from drunk driving to be self-inflicted. Because it is widely known that driving drunk can lead to accidents, causing injuries and potentially death, the logic is that if you get in the car drunk, you know there is a considerable risk that you could die. Insurance companies usually will not pay the benefits if it is determined that the death was self-inflicted. This is to prevent insurance fraud – insurers do not want people to take out significant insurance policies and then intentionally kill themselves so that their beneficiaries will get a large sum of money.

There is some controversy over drunk driving deaths being considered self-inflicted. There have even been lawsuits surrounding this controversy. However, insurance companies maintain that there is enough information available publicly about the risks of drunk driving and that policyholders should know that it is dangerous. They want to do everything they can to deter people from driving drunk, which is essential."

https://www.lifeant.com/faq/will-life-insurance-pay-if-drunk-driving-was-the-cause-of-death/

TSherbs
December 27th, 2021, 06:42 AM
Interesting. I never had heard of this reluctance to pay out for drunk driving. Negligence and addiction both seem quite different from a suicide, however.

Chuck Naill
December 27th, 2021, 07:14 AM
Interesting. I never had heard of this reluctance to pay out for drunk driving. Negligence and addiction both seem quite different from a suicide, however.

Agreed. Things have changed regarding addiction. PTSD used to be Shell Shocked or worse. I read where Jimmy Steward suffered. In my community my uncle and another used alcohol. They were looked down upon. Sad given what they saw in war.

BoBo Olson
December 27th, 2021, 03:56 PM
""""Perhaps relevant. Might refusing vaccination, masking, or other public health measures be a basis for treating a death from COVID as self-inflicted? """"

I see it as murder and attempted murder. Jail them.....they do not have the freedom to murder the neighborhood, just because they believe in lies.
The Government is sticking them with little nanno's to find out exactly how often and when in the day the fool goes to Wallmarkt.
One's TV's speakers is a microphone (No BS), so why waste money with super secret nano tec?

We have the same idiots over here and I favor making them pay for their hospitalization. Over here that would get them vaccinated quickly.


Whose paying for hospitalization in the States?....if unemployed? ....and the 1/4th that will need months or even years for recovery treatments.

We pay 13%(6 in a room)-15% (3 in a room)..our choice, matched by the employer for full hospitalization.
Government covers the unemployed, and the half from the retirees.

That is universal health care, no one loses a car, or house due to illness nor has to sell a diamond ring; much less a fountain pen. And there is no sick hours.

The Doctor tells you, you are sick. Stay at home as often as you are sick.**
And if real ill, it will take you 9-12 months to get fired....then you are still covered. Then the social net will cover much....perhaps one might have to move into a smaller 'social' home, than what one had....but the rent is paid, clothing allowance....

** If your boss complains or attempts to fire you, he will be hit by a Angry Doctor and the Doctor's lawyers. Got to remember you do have the Little Gods in White Coats; on your side. Not the bosses...:blink:

No food stamps.....
Between unemployment and if so later social net you are not going to miss a meal or have a leaky roof (so one has to drink cheap Aldi beer) .............one of the reasons we have a 19% sales tax. 7% on food.
Also Child money...for all rich or poor... 219 € a month for the first two kids, 225 € for the 3rd. 250 € for the 4th. Up to 18 years old unless a student.
I'm pretty sure many other countries in Europe don't have as high a kindergelt level as Germany.

Oddly, we have just as many millionaires per-head as in the States.

TSherbs
December 27th, 2021, 04:02 PM
We are captive to the myth in the United States that the economy and health care systems will implode if we raise taxes substantially. That's a lie, but it is an entrenched myth here.

Chip
December 28th, 2021, 12:47 PM
We are captive to the myth in the United States that the economy and health care systems will implode if we raise taxes substantially. That's a lie, but it is an entrenched myth here.

Dig, dig, dig! With the corporate lobbyists and the ultra-rich handing out free shovels.

kazoolaw
January 3rd, 2022, 02:25 PM
We are captive to the myth in the United States that the economy and health care systems will implode if we raise taxes substantially. That's a lie, but it is an entrenched myth here.

The myth we are captive to is that nobody pays when taxes are increased.

dneal
January 3rd, 2022, 02:48 PM
We are captive to the myth in the United States that the economy and health care systems will implode if we raise taxes substantially. That's a lie, but it is an entrenched myth here.

The myth we are captive to is that nobody pays when taxes are increased.


Or that it’s only “the other guy” who pays.

TSherbs
January 3rd, 2022, 04:19 PM
We are captive to the myth in the United States that the economy and health care systems will implode if we raise taxes substantially. That's a lie, but it is an entrenched myth here.

The myth we are captive to is that nobody pays when taxes are increased.


I've never heard this claim before. Obviously, people pay. But maybe some folks say this. I sure don't.

TSherbs
January 13th, 2022, 04:41 AM
Or there is this approach: charge extra to the unvaxxed:

CNN: Canada says vaccine mandates work as Quebec's 'unvaxxed tax' leads to spike in first-dose appointments.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/12/americas/quebec-vaccine-mandate-intl/index.html

NvMS
January 17th, 2023, 08:26 AM
Great observation! I think that over time, medicare companies will come to provide different plans for vaccinated and non-vaccinated. A vaccine isn't a guarantee of safety from Covid. However, vaccinated people easily carry the virus, and don't have complications like other respiratory diseases. But I am glad that so far the insurance companies haven't come to this decision. I use the medicare services of https://ibgportland.com/health-insurance/health-coverage-for-oregon-small-business-owners-and-entrepreneurs for my company's employees and myself. But most of us are already vaccinated. It was a prerequisite for visiting our offices.

Mık Joger
July 9th, 2023, 03:00 PM
When it comes to healthcare, I've discovered various effective strategies. Regular exercise, such as yoga and running, helps me release tension. Additionally, I find solace in practicing mindfulness and deep breathing techniques. However, one of the most valuable resources I've found is connecting with Calmerry online therapists (https://us.calmerry.com/online-therapy/) Their expertise and guidance provide me with practical tools to manage stress and build resilience and my healthcare.

dneal
July 9th, 2023, 03:30 PM
David, you're erring yet again. We know this account is you.

tsk, tsk.

Maybe I'll post Leigh's email address and let each person decide what they want to do with it.

TSherbs
July 10th, 2023, 11:08 AM
David, you're erring yet again. We know this account is you.

tsk, tsk.

Maybe I'll post Leigh's email address and let each person decide what they want to do with it.

you're a royal fucking asshole for posting threats like this

you clearly have no conscience here and think that whatever you want is justified

You should be banned from this site for doing such a thing, and this is not the first time.

What a trash bin of bullying and targeted vindictiveness you have turned these back pages into. You even started a whole thread just to humiliate EoC. An entire thread. And now this, too.

Mr Tough Guy with threats and "tough skin." What a fucking joke. You're nothing more here than an angry little Napoleon who wants to be king of the sandbox.

Go fuck yourself, douchebag. Spare us your doxing threats for action beyond the forum. And you say of others that they lack restraint. Ha! Fuck off and threaten people on some other forum.

Post reported.

dneal
July 10th, 2023, 11:56 AM
Not as big of an asshole as the petty little shit that spams the forum.

But you can take your own advice, douchebag.

*hugs and kisses*

dneal
July 10th, 2023, 11:57 AM
David, you're erring yet again. We know this account is you.

tsk, tsk.

Maybe I'll post Leigh's email address and let each person decide what they want to do with it.

you're a royal fucking asshole for posting threats like this

you clearly have no conscience here and think that whatever you want is justified

You should be banned from this site for doing such a thing, and this is not the first time.

What a trash bin of bullying and targeted vindictiveness you have turned these back pages into. You even started a whole thread just to humiliate EoC. An entire thread. And now this, too.

Mr Tough Guy with threats and "tough skin." What a fucking joke. You're nothing more here than an angry little Napoleon who wants to be king of the sandbox.

Go fuck yourself, douchebag. Spare us your doxing threats for action beyond the forum. And you say of others that they lack restraint. Ha! Fuck off and threaten people on some other forum.

Post reported.

Just quoting for posterity, and because it's hilarious.

724Seney
July 10th, 2023, 04:40 PM
David, you're erring yet again. We know this account is you.

tsk, tsk.

Maybe I'll post Leigh's email address and let each person decide what they want to do with it.

you're a royal fucking asshole for posting threats like this

you clearly have no conscience here and think that whatever you want is justified

You should be banned from this site for doing such a thing, and this is not the first time.

What a trash bin of bullying and targeted vindictiveness you have turned these back pages into. You even started a whole thread just to humiliate EoC. An entire thread. And now this, too.

Mr Tough Guy with threats and "tough skin." What a fucking joke. You're nothing more here than an angry little Napoleon who wants to be king of the sandbox.

Go fuck yourself, douchebag. Spare us your doxing threats for action beyond the forum. And you say of others that they lack restraint. Ha! Fuck off and threaten people on some other forum.

Post reported.

If there is ANYBODY who should be banned, it is you TSherbs.
Just this post, alone, violates every published rule of the Forum!

Just who do you think you are???
You have a supreme, unmitigated amount of gall to tell anyone else they should be banned.

So, likewise and in turn, your disgraceful post has been reported.
With any luck, you will be the first person to get tossed off the island.

#ever disgusting loser

dneal
July 10th, 2023, 05:50 PM
I don’t know why he’s still here. From his how do I delete my account thread:


I am mostly done with my pen and ink purchasing, so I am much less interested in learning new things about pens, inks, care, and maintenance, so that energy of the learning curve is dissipating. Natural growth curve now on decline. I don't have much interest in doing reviews (I never have).

Snip

The deletion of my account would help to keep me from visiting compulsively. I have no personal stake in this, nor any sense of having been offended (as someone else suggested here). I am not learning much and not enjoying myself. This hasn't been the place for me for some time, but occasionally I have slid into the false hope that my presence and point of view would change the nature of the dynamic (in a few limited ways). But that is delusional thinking, as it always is. FPGeeks isn't broken or in need of fixing, nor anything like that. It is what it is. I need to make the change in myself and move on.

724Seney
July 10th, 2023, 06:37 PM
I don’t know why he’s still here. From his how do I delete my account thread:


I am mostly done with my pen and ink purchasing, so I am much less interested in learning new things about pens, inks, care, and maintenance, so that energy of the learning curve is dissipating. Natural growth curve now on decline. I don't have much interest in doing reviews (I never have).

Snip

The deletion of my account would help to keep me from visiting compulsively. I have no personal stake in this, nor any sense of having been offended (as someone else suggested here). I am not learning much and not enjoying myself. This hasn't been the place for me for some time, but occasionally I have slid into the false hope that my presence and point of view would change the nature of the dynamic (in a few limited ways). But that is delusional thinking, as it always is. FPGeeks isn't broken or in need of fixing, nor anything like that. It is what it is. I need to make the change in myself and move on.


But, isn't this typical?

He never completes anything he starts and is easily distracted from his stated intention(s). Such is the genesis of his hypocrisy.....he runs around like a decapitated chicken not remembering where he has been or where he is going.

I have to wonder if all his "I'm leaving" nonsense wasn't an inspiration to EoC? Perhaps the reason for the tenacious bond between those two is they see each other as embattled "brothers in arms?"

dneal
July 10th, 2023, 07:00 PM
I noted that they both recognize a compulsive behavior, so much so that they require someone else to enforce what they claim to want. There are other ways. They could let their spouse set their password. They could change it to a random series of characters and not have their browser remember it.

Strangely, they lack in creativity as much as discipline.

Chuck Naill
July 11th, 2023, 03:37 PM
Pots calling the other members pots…..

Yes, keep this for posterity. For all have sinned…..

Chip
July 11th, 2023, 05:24 PM
For all have sinned…..

But some of us enjoy it.
:bounce:

Chuck Naill
July 11th, 2023, 06:24 PM
Apparently chip. 😂

Chip
July 11th, 2023, 10:13 PM
Wanna compare our sin scorecards?

But that's a swerve.

Back on topic, I'd say insurance companies should apply their actuarial scales and determine how much unvaxxed people who get sick are costing, over the norm.

It should be a business decision.

Chuck Naill
July 13th, 2023, 10:07 AM
Two years ago, when I retired here the ICU beds were taken. Most people continued to wear masks. Vaccine acceptance increased. Maybe out of exhaustion.

I’ve never paid for the four the initial and subsequent boosters. Now it is the same as the pneumococcal vaccine and influenza annual boosters. I have not received the shingles to date. I’ve had shingles twice in my 40’s.

Like most practices, we adopt those that work and discard those that don’t. Since I can know everything or most, I trust those who went to school and became knowledgeable. I’m not much for theories which haven’t been or is being tested. I was never swayed by ivermectin, drinking bleach, herd immunity, not wearing masks, and not keeping 6 feet apart. Being free from the virus was easy. Inconvenient, but easy.

dneal
July 13th, 2023, 10:40 AM
Given the steadily increasing data that the vaccine did more harm than good, perhaps the unvaxxed should receive the discount.

Chuck Naill
July 13th, 2023, 11:49 AM
It worked well for everyone in my circle workers and family. Sure beats long Covid.

Chuck Naill
July 13th, 2023, 11:49 AM
And I didn’t have to be a hermit.

dneal
July 13th, 2023, 11:57 AM
I didn’t have to be a hermit either.

Don’t look at the excess death data. Just a heads up.

Chuck Naill
July 13th, 2023, 12:54 PM
There were many deaths from failing to follow common sense. Don’t look at those stats either.

dneal
July 13th, 2023, 02:17 PM
Deaths from the 'vaccine' that doesn't work, and the lack of treatment protocols (or ridiculing and threatening doctors that did develop successful treatment protocols...)? How many deaths were from ventilators? Hell, how many were from car or motorcycle accidents? There was a lot of money for listing 'covid' as the cause of death.

You listened to the 'expert' propaganda, not the actual experts.

Chuck Naill
July 13th, 2023, 03:44 PM
Not trying to upset you @dneal. Medical complications do occur. That’s not an excuse. We all had options. You chose one and so did I. We argued our actions were correct. Looking back, and next time, I probably will not. I’ll listen, make informed consent, and be done with it.

dneal
July 13th, 2023, 04:11 PM
Why would I be upset? The people I listened to are turning out to have been right all along.

Chuck Naill
July 14th, 2023, 03:27 PM
Maybe listen to more people and maybe, just maybe those who know more than you and don’t agree with what you chose to do?? Otherwise, no clue.

dneal
July 14th, 2023, 03:45 PM
Yes Chuck, that is exactly what you should do.

Or, you can listen to your pundits (who, like Fauci, are not epidemiologists).

I hope your grandkids didn't get the shot (seriously, the emerging data is not good).

Chuck Naill
July 14th, 2023, 04:00 PM
They did and their reading skills improved.

dneal
July 14th, 2023, 04:19 PM
All kidding aside, please look into some of the issues with the youngsters and the covid vaccine - mainly from the European sources. We're way too politicized on the topic in this country.

It's too early to know anything definitive; but the myocarditis rates are not good, there's some concern with neurological and autoimmune side effects, and there's emerging evidence correlating the spike protein and cancer.

I'm not trolling or trying to win anything here. Maybe it'll turn out to be nothing, but we're on the same side when it comes to protecting children.

Chuck Naill
July 14th, 2023, 04:50 PM
I agree we are too politicized, but unfortunately, I can’t say I trust you, @dneal.

They are fine, no problems.

dneal
July 14th, 2023, 05:47 PM
Not asking you to trust me. I’m asking that you apply your pharma experience in paying attention to emerging studies - the Germans and Danes in particular.

Chuck Naill
July 24th, 2023, 04:46 PM
I trust the New England Journal of Medicine, The Medical Letter, and Journal of Infectious Diseases. Post me a study from those sources.

dneal
July 24th, 2023, 04:50 PM
I trust the New England Journal of Medicine, The Medical Letter, and Journal of Infectious Diseases. Post me a study from those sources.

No thanks. You can do your own research.

Chuck Naill
July 24th, 2023, 04:55 PM
Lol!! I have, but thank you for your input!

dneal
July 24th, 2023, 07:42 PM
Yes, and you got covid anyway, just like the Cleveland Clinic study showed.

Chuck Naill
July 26th, 2023, 04:56 PM
I had a cold for 10 days, never tested. Didn’t have a doctor at the time. Used Halls cough drops. 😂😂😂

dneal
July 27th, 2023, 04:40 AM
So you were lying when you said you had Omicron?

Chuck Naill
July 29th, 2023, 12:46 PM
So you were lying when you said you had Omicron?

I was suspicious, never tested. I guess this means you don't have a point?

dneal
July 30th, 2023, 09:51 AM
Only that you're caught in a lie, and trying to weasel out of it now that it's inconvenient to your argument.

Par for the course.

calamus
July 30th, 2023, 06:41 PM
For all have sinned…..

But some of us enjoy it.
:bounce:

... more than others.

calamus
July 30th, 2023, 06:48 PM
About all those people who took the jab and were fine afterwards... until they suddenly dropped dead for no apparent reason in the prime of life and while in excellent physical condition... except for unexplained myocarditis...
Nah, only a gullible fool would think there might be a connection.
In fact, I have it on good authority that nobody who was vaxxed has died yet. In fact, it might turn out to be the key to eternal life.

haroldawerben
September 14th, 2023, 09:13 AM
It makes sense to some extent since vaccines can reduce potential hospitalization costs, so it's like a proactive step to potentially lower claims.

When I negotiated my plan with covering florida (https://www.coveringcfl.net/), they offered me a small discount for being vaxxed. It wasn't a massive cut, but it did make me feel like my choice was recognized in some way.

Chuck Naill
September 14th, 2023, 10:42 AM
Insurance cover vaccines and other preventive medical products and services because they reduce costs of other services. People who choose not to protect themselves suffer health and economic consequences.

dneal
September 14th, 2023, 11:25 AM
Insurance cover vaccines and other preventive medical products and services because they reduce costs of other services. People who choose not to protect themselves suffer health and economic consequences.

Yes. People who are overweight, have a poor diet and do not exercise are a financial burden on those who live a healthy lifestyle. While they suffer health consequences (like increased vulnerability to covid and other diseases), the economic consequences are placed on everyone.

Americans in particular want "magic pills". Now they are taking diabetic medicine so they can continue to eat unhealthy quantities of food, to go along with statins so they can continue to eat unhealthy food.

Pharma is happy to profit off the ignorant and lazy, who scream for someone else to "do something" when they face the consequences of their poor decisions. Pay no attention to the fine print of side effects...

Chuck Naill
September 18th, 2023, 09:22 AM
Obtained the RSV Vaccine this AM.

For those unfamiliar, https://www.rsvandme.com/?cc=ps_OUBTJKZ9C71570871&mcm=330002&gclid=06ba80daab3e1a8d989de5d2c1935bb9&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=06ba80daab3e1a8d989de5d2c1935bb9

Medicare covers this vaccine at no cost. This is a one time vaccine.