I Guess it's Time to Discuss January 6th

[Chuck Naill]

It was the day I got the first Moderan vaccine dose. I got back to the office and heard about the events still unfolding. The I heard and read the Presidents speech before. I was pleased Republicans Romney and Cheney took a stand against Trump's actions.

Where were you and what are your thoughts? Did you stay tuned or were you disinterested? Do you think it really occured?

[Bold2013]

Didn’t hear about it till after the fact (working and sheltered from daily news).

Not a great look. Reminded me of the summer of 2020.

Also made me think of the “back door to war” theory I had long forgotten.

[Chuck Naill]

Didn’t hear about it till after the fact (working and sheltered from daily news).

Not a great look. Reminded me of the summer of 2020.

Also made me think of the “back door to war” theory I had long forgotten.

Are you saying Trump and/or his followers were trying to "provoke" a civil war ?

[Chuck Naill]

This is an interesting read of how the January 6th event may be remembered compared to other historical events.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/06/opinion/jan-6-shaman-past-future.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CEIPuonUktbfqYhkSVUbBSbSRdkhrxqAwvrGxvliw2T-JS2cT3Naxv8JRoad51rXaOxje943lXy9deN2DYUOFrZ03_MNeA tkURWpqZ-J38QIKik--N--Gzln1ZmIALw0rXq6ZWKwbbYhmuLk4EzWPme7DLfNkiF0fHYTqp Nnd1yt33wIxL6UUbImn4kjgopyQ8xyVjwCZyKVvvH3ChoYON-Obh_U7wJeSPgOEHiI3obas-RcBV0UXVHWT3p_4nI-6MdcOb4UPqX8KR0me6nukBuwGZMvZIeg35dDEQFty7M&smid=url-share

[Bold2013]

I think people knew what was going to happen and chose not to stop it hoping to capitalize (pun intended)

[Chuck Naill]

I think people knew what was going to happen and chose not to stop it hoping to capitalize (pun intended)

After reading the Trump speech transcript, what occured was not surprising. We now know, thank you journalists, that Fox News was saying things were going too far. I can imagine them saying, "oh shit, we were just joking"!!!

[Bold2013]

I think the left “ignored” the writing on the wall

[kazoolaw]

And if you're in the mood to read something with an opposing view:
https://dailycaller.com/2022/01/06/victor-davis-hanson-who-are-the-real-insurrectionists/

[Chuck Naill]

I think the left “ignored” the writing on the wall

It is not their fault.

[Chuck Naill]

And if you're in the mood to read something with an opposing view:
https://dailycaller.com/2022/01/06/victor-davis-hanson-who-are-the-real-insurrectionists/


The source is a strong right slanted source. We should focus, regardless of whether we agree or not, on who stormed the building where lives and lasting harm were inflicted.

[Bold2013]

I think the left “ignored” the writing on the wall

It is not their fault.

Reminds me of old FDR and Pearl Harbor

[Chuck Naill]

I think the left “ignored” the writing on the wall

It is not their fault.

Reminds me of old FDR and Pearl Harbor

I would like to respond more to your posts, but I do not want to take the time to try and figure out your point. Sorry, bro. :)

[Bold2013]

“Back door to war theory”. FDR’s strategic positioning in the pacific to provoke Japan to attack and use it as a rally cry to get people to support him going into WW2.

[Chuck Naill]

“Back door to war theory”. FDR’s strategic positioning in the pacific to provoke Japan to attack and use it as a rally cry to get people to support him going into WW2.

Yeah, I looked it up. I remember some think the Treaty of Versailles caused WW2.

[kazoolaw]

The source is a strong right slanted source.

An antidote to the NYT.

[Chuck Naill]

The source is a strong right slanted source.

An antidote to the NYT.

Nope. Try again. If you were to name one information source that you choose not to be political or biased, what would it be?

[dneal]

The source is a strong right slanted source.

An antidote to the NYT.

Nope. Try again. If you were to name one information source that you choose not to be political or biased, what would it be?

Certainly not the NYT.

The "source" is irrelevant, when the writer has an established career. Anyone remotely familiar with Victor Davis Hanson already knows his credentials and his political views. Dismissing the piece simply because of the link, demonstrates your own ignorance of VDH and inability to consider a view you suspect is not aligned with your own, which is why you consistently demonstrate your inability to argue merits of an issue, and why your posts consist of little but regurgitation of your woke echo-chamber.

Here's the same article via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/victor-davis-hanson-who-are-the-real-insurrectionists/ar-AAStIOv). Does the content now have more or less credibility?

How about the article via Jewish World Review (https://jewishworldreview.com/0122/hanson010622.php)? Now if you disagree, you're clearly an anti-semite.

[Chuck Naill]

The source is a strong right slanted source.

An antidote to the NYT.

Nope. Try again. If you were to name one information source that you choose not to be political or biased, what would it be?

Certainly not the NYT.

The "source" is irrelevant, when the writer has an established career. Anyone remotely familiar with Victor Davis Hanson already knows his credentials and his political views. Dismissing the piece simply because of the link, demonstrates your own ignorance of VDH and inability to consider a view you suspect is not aligned with your own, which is why you consistently demonstrate your inability to argue merits of an issue, and why your posts consist of little but regurgitation of your woke echo-chamber.

Here's the same article via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/victor-davis-hanson-who-are-the-real-insurrectionists/ar-AAStIOv). Does the content now have more or less credibility?

How about the article via Jewish World Review (https://jewishworldreview.com/0122/hanson010622.php)? Now if you disagree, you're clearly an anti-semite.

He's a known conservative commentator. The liberals did not cause whatever you choose to label what occured on January 6th 2020. It is impossible to make it so. It was a failed attempt made by a person who lost an election. Of course if you want to pretend it was something else, it is not my ambition to stop you.

I read Trump's transcript. I also know he said he would go with them. I also know he didn't show any courage. He used them.

I realise he's your man and probably dictates much of your decisions. You've bet on the wrong horse @dneal. There are other better people for which to support.

[dneal]

Yes, he is a known conservative commentator. Paul Krugman is a known liberal commentator. I still read his stuff though.

That's why I'm more knowledgeable and objective than you. I already know what you're going to say, because I read it in the CNN/NYT/WashPost/Atlantic/etc... headlines. You just repeat the narrative. No thought, just echoing. It's predictable, and boring. I bother with responding because I actually believe you're capable of reason, even though I rarely see evidence of it.

[Chuck Naill]

Yes, he is a known conservative commentator. Paul Krugman is a known liberal commentator. I still read his stuff though.

That's why I'm more knowledgeable and objective than you. I already know what you're going to say, because I read it in the CNN/NYT/WashPost/Atlantic/etc... headlines. You just repeat the narrative. No thought, just echoing. It's predictable, and boring. I bother with responding because I actually believe you're capable of reason, even though I rarely see evidence of it.

I read broadly myself, but if the intent is to immediatel divert attention from what occured on January 6, 2020, I am imediately suspecious. I mean, it is not like someone commenting on the Night of Broken Glass.

You are more objective in your dreams @dneal. And, given your posts regarding Sowell, vaccine safety, and medical knowledge, you are anything but more knowledgable lest I forget your posing of Steve Bannon. You believe what suits your actions.

[dneal]

I read broadly myself, but if the intent is to immediatel divert attention from what occured on January 6, 2020, I am imediately suspecious. I mean, it is not like someone commenting on the Night of Broken Glass.

You are more objective in your dreams @dneal. And, given your posts regarding Sowell, vaccine safety, and medical knowledge, you are anything but more knowledgable lest I forget your posing of Steve Bannon. You believe what suits your actions.

And yet again you ignore anything of substance. Care to critique VDH? Can you? I suspect not. Simply more claims, with no evidence. You just demonize and dismiss, because you're mentally lazy. Evangelical Christians, Steve Bannon, Trumpists, whatever. You imagine boogey-men everywhere.

[Chuck Naill]

More claims, with no evidence. You just demonize and dismiss, because you're mentally lazy. Evangelical Christians, Trumpists, whatever.

You claimed a high incidence of adverse events with children taking the covid vaccine. You claimed vaccines don't work. You claimed Sowell said things he did't. You posted lies and claimed you were being sarcastic. If you want to think you're better, that's fine. Go ahead. I'm one of the few still replying to your posts.

[kazoolaw]

https://gettr.com/post/pmmic8aaaf

[dneal]

Yes, you claimed that I claimed that. I challenged you to cite the post. You didn't. You're as wrong on that as you are the Sowell claims. I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you admit your mistake, but now I'll assume you're just a liar, because straw men arguments of your own invention are easier than addressing things of substance.

Pitiful, pathetic, and lazy.

Feel free to stick out your pouty lip and "ignore" me. Nothing would please me more than for you to stop replying to my posts and threads, because you're nothing but a disruption. An internet hyena. You can't follow a topic, you just spout your woke nonsense you got from CNN, the NYT, etc... Don Lemon and Rachel Maddow have their hands up your ass, pulling your strings. I hear their voices in your posts, 12 hours after they say it on TV.

So yes Chuck, ignore me. Stop replying to my posts. We both know you can't. You've tried before and failed. You'll fail again.

[welch]

And if you're in the mood to read something with an opposing view:
https://dailycaller.com/2022/01/06/victor-davis-hanson-who-are-the-real-insurrectionists/


Kaz, I read the article. It is an opinion piece, a windy collection of rhetorical flourishes. (Since the guy is said to be a classicist, he begs any reader to go back to Plato to read the many dialogs in which Socrates demolishes various teachers of rhetoric and their pupils) The author squeals as if someone stepped on his toe. Was the "stop the steal" attack on the Capitol an "insurrection"? From the evidence, it seems more like a last-ditch attempt to stop the US Congress from counting the Electoral Votes that were to make Joe Biden President, rather than Donald Trump. It was an attempt to stop the normal operation under the US Constitution by which Americans change Presidents. The mob attempted to overthrow the Constitution. That makes it treason. (And, yes, I was a history major long, long ago, and I know that few people except for spies have been convicted of treason.)

By all evidence, Trump violated his oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. He was assisted by officials he appointed into his White House staff, and by lawyers who volunteered to help him.

Glenn Kessler lines up what we have learned over the last year:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/06/january-6-attack-capitol-guide-what-we-now-know/

The Post allows five or ten free reads per month, and, since this is only the 6th, the article is not blocked behind a paywall.


“The insurrection took place on November 3, Election Day. January 6 was the Protest!”

— Former president Donald Trump, in a statement, Oct. 21

“The events of January 6, 2021, marked the most significant assault on the Capitol since the War of 1812.”

— Judge Patricia Millett, U.S. Court of Appeals, in an opinion issued Dec. 9

These quotes signify the vast gulf of understanding about the events of Jan. 6, 2021.

From the perspective of the former president, the attack on the Capitol was the result of an election that he falsely says was stolen. Trump claims the attackers were mere protesters, falsely maligned by the media and his opponents.

The reality, backed by law enforcement officials and the judiciary, is that Jan. 6 was the culmination of a sustained effort by a sitting president to overturn the election results. “That attack, that siege was criminal behavior, plain and simple,” said FBI Director Christopher A. Wray, who was appointed by Trump. “And it’s behavior that we, the FBI, view as domestic terrorism.”

One year later, here’s a reader’s guide to what is now known about the assault, though investigations and prosecutions are not complete.

[Chuck Naill]

Yes, you claimed that I claimed that. I challenged you to cite the post. You didn't. You're as wrong on that as you are the Sowell claims. I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you admit your mistake, but now I'll assume you're just a liar, because straw men arguments of your own invention are easier than addressing things of substance.

Pitiful, pathetic, and lazy.

Feel free to stick out your pouty lip and "ignore" me. Nothing would please me more than for you to stop replying to my posts and threads, because you're nothing but a disruption. An internet hyena. You can't follow a topic, you just spout your woke nonsense you got from CNN, the NYT, etc... Don Lemon and Rachel Maddow have their hands up your ass, pulling your strings. I hear their voices in your posts, 12 hours after they say it on TV.

So yes Chuck, ignore me. Stop replying to my posts. We both know you can't. You've tried before and failed. You'll fail again.

Feel better? LOL!!

[TSherbs]

...From the evidence, it seems more like a last-ditch attempt to stop the US Congress from counting the Electoral Votes that were to make Joe Biden President, rather than Donald Trump. It was an attempt to stop the normal operation under the US Constitution by which Americans change Presidents. ...[/QUOTE]

Yes, succinctly put.

[dneal]

Feel better? LOL!!

Well lookie there, you’re learning.

[Chuck Naill]

Like always ……

[Chuck Naill]

Even Ted Cruz is walking back comments. What an over educated dumb ass.

[TSherbs]

Pretty good, from Colbert:
https://youtu.be/H_IxT2ei9gU

[Chuck Naill]

Pretty good, from Colbert:
https://youtu.be/H_IxT2ei9gU

Liberal trash…..lol!

[TSherbs]

Even Ted Cruz is walking back comments. What an over educated dumb ass.

When Ted Cruz didn't punch Trump in the face for calling his wife ugly, I knew he was gonna lose.

[Chuck Naill]

Even Ted Cruz is walking back comments. What an over educated dumb ass.

When Ted Cruz didn't punch Trump in the face for calling his wife ugly, I knew he was gonna lose.

Liz agrees...“Trump broke Ted Cruz,” Cheney replied. “A real man would be defending his wife, and his father, and the Constitution"

How can any rational person, or a man with balls support such a man child?

[Bold2013]

I dare you to watch this news broadcast about Jan 6th and not laugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dVxK-rCNwY

[Chuck Naill]

That's really funny. Here is another one that will have you bent over laughing. Watch how the officer pretends to be drug down the steps and the participants, probably dressed up as Trump supporters from the Democratics or black people wearing white face, pretending to hit the officer with flag poles and such...LOL!! I can't stop laughing.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/11/police-beating-capitol-mob/

[manoeuver]

6 Jan sucked.

It's been purposefully exaggerated by certain sectors to advance their vision of a surveillance state.

The trespassers seem like a mix of the very gullible and agents provocateurs. No Black Bloc visible which is fishy AF.

In the aftermath The Donald has shown himself to be utterly self-centered, spineless, ineffectual. Few are surprised.

Now we have dozens of nonviolent (if stupid) political prisoners being punished not for insurrection (not one charge!) but for thoughtcrime (via trespassing.)

Anyone calling Jan 6 an insurrection or coup is most likely a hateful authoritarian out for political vengeance for the embarrassment of 2016.

I'd rather see Congress sacked every day than another small business burned, another Black neighborhood ransacked, or innocent bystander run down by a radicalized red SUV.

We have a problem with political violence in this country, those who intimate it's limited to Jan 6th are really the worst kind of scum.

[Chuck Naill]

6 Jan sucked.


Agreed!!

[TSherbs]

......
We have a problem with political violence in this country, those who intimate it's limited to Jan 6th are really the worst kind of scum.

Absolutely. America's love for political violence goes way back. Very sick, IMO.

I don't think anyone here was suggesting that American violence, political or otherwise, is limited to Jan 6, 2021. America's history is drenched in bloodsoak. I can't imagine that anyone would deny that.

[Chuck Naill]

Andrew Jackson was one of the worse inflator of pain and misery. Jan 6th is Trump’s burden to bear. I just don’t like the “what about this” posts regarding Black Lives Matter protest being suggested as something similar. They were not trying to overturn a loss.

[Chuck Naill]

I was never taught the real reason for the Alamo. My teachers are to blame

[TSherbs]

I was never taught the real reason for the Alamo. My teachers are to blame

Their culture (parents, schools, churches, news outlets) likely hid the truth from them, too.

[manoeuver]

Andrew Jackson was one of the worse inflator of pain and misery. Jan 6th is Trump’s burden to bear. I just don’t like the “what about this” posts regarding Black Lives Matter protest being suggested as something similar. They were not trying to overturn a loss.

No. Why is it typical of a Trump hater to refuse to compare 1/6 with BLM, then turn around and compare it to 9/11 or Pearl Harbor?
I know you're not doing this exactly, but it was a theme at the Democratic circle jerk around Dick Cheney of all people.
It's a demand for Doublethink. I'm not buying it.

Were they sore losers? Of course. But people are here saying a 3 hour riot was worse than the 4-year Russiagate hoax. That's garbage.

[Chuck Naill]

Andrew Jackson was one of the worse inflator of pain and misery. Jan 6th is Trump’s burden to bear. I just don’t like the “what about this” posts regarding Black Lives Matter protest being suggested as something similar. They were not trying to overturn a loss.

No. Why is it typical of a Trump hater to refuse to compare 1/6 with BLM, then turn around and compare it to 9/11 or Pearl Harbor?
I know you're not doing this exactly, but it was a theme at the Democratic circle jerk around Dick Cheney of all people.
It's a demand for Doublethink. I'm not buying it.

Were they sore losers? Of course. But people are here saying a 3 hour riot was worse than the 4-year Russiagate hoax. That's garbage.

The Black Lives Matter movement is not to overturn the will of the American people in a presidental election. If you want to discuss black history in the US, start a thread. I will meet you there. There is much to know and understand.

What makes January 6 important is that it was something Donald Trump as a sitting president encouraged. If you question, read the transcript. If you have read the transcript and you don't think he did, I need to know why.

I do not like Donald Trump, but I do not hate him. If he had a life change, I would be very pleased. That said, making excuses for his actions and words in not somthing for which I will participate.

[TSherbs]

Manoeuver, Dems were of course "sore" after losing in 2016. That is natural. No one wants to lose, and it is particularly so when in American presidential elections, the national vote goes one way, but the EC vote goes the other. But HC conceded, and there was no attempt to contravert the transfer of power to the next president. There was no massive legal or extra-legal campaign to spread lies about the election results. There were no rallies, no efforts to block or impede the process of certifying the results and then accepting those results on the Senate floor. There was no rally outside the Capitol bldg with the aim of contraverting the process of installing DT as the next president.

You seem to be suggesting that the as usual effort to impede the efforts of one party in control of the White House by the party out of control (this is always the case) is somehow equivalent or even worse than storming the capital to deny the result of a national election from having it's legal result, simply because it took less time. The riot may have been three hours but the effort to deny the results of the election began the day that DT stated to the world that he would accept the results of the election "only if I win." He flew the flag months earlier about what his priorities were and started lying daily about how the election was "rigged." Jan 6 was no "3-hour" event as such; it was the culmination of years of lying and manipulation of a gullible public. Take, for example, the birther lying. That goes back years and marks am early phase of Trump's dumping of bullshit into the whirling fans of the media where it was amplified and then spread around the internet. There was not a shred of truth to it, but the lie stoked racism and anti-Islam sentiment around the country. Trump learned early the power that a lie can have in provoking people susceptible to conspiracy theories to energize. He has not changed an iota since.

If your claim is that the investigation into the Trump admin ties to Russia is tantamount to the same, or worse, level of lie, then that can be another analysis. Go for it. I, personally, thought that the impeachment trial (first one) was weak and a waste of time. But not the second one. Unfortunately, impeachment had been weaponized in practice (since Bill Clinton). But that is far different from entering the Capitol with weapons. I agree with you about "treason" and "insurrection" etc. The link that I posted used the term in comedy. I've never, in serious, called the actions an attempt at coup.

[TSherbs]

This might be a first step in trying to de-fang the battle over the counting of electoral votes:

NPR: What is the Electoral Count Act?.
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/08/1071239044/congress-may-change-this-arcane-law-to-avoid-another-jan-6

[TSherbs]

Here's another set of suggestions for reform, from the Center for American Progress:

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-save-american-democracy/

[Chuck Naill]

Popular vote should rule. Gerrymandering should be illegal. If you're going to have a democracy, have a democracy. Having to even go through the process of former slave and women's voting rights is beyond being able to defend.

[TSherbs]

Popular vote should rule. This would require a Constitutional amendment.

[Chuck Naill]

Popular vote should rule. This would require a Constitutional amendment.

So be it. We are at a place where someone is winning and not getting the popular vote. It is how we got DT.

[Pendragon]

"Capitol Insurrection" is to January 6 what "murder hornets" are to giant hornets - media hyperbole. Fearmongering keeps the public glued to the media outlets. The events of a year ago were simply a riot at the Capitol building. Asian giant hornets are actually less dangerous than Africanized honeybees.


Popular vote should rule.
It already does, and has done so for nearly 250 years. The problem comes when our fearless leaders, or wannabe fearless leaders, try to discredit an election if lose. This started with Hillary's team and the 2016 election. Claiming that the Russians jacked the election implied that the results were invalid. If the election was invalid, then of course their should be a new election. Best two out of three elections anyone? That opened up a huge can of worms, and leads people to discredit the outcome of any election where their side did not win. Look at what happened four years later. Sure, the Republicans may have piled the dynamite onto the truck, but the Democrats lit the fuse four years earlier.

Both parties take a legitimate election process and try to game it. The Commission on Presidential Elections, run by the Democratic and Republican parties, sets up debate rules designed to exclude third-party candidates. Combine that with the my-way-or-the-highway attitudes they have instilled in the voters, and the result is kryptonite to democracy.

[TSherbs]

Popular vote should rule. This would require a Constitutional amendment.

So be it. We are at a place where someone is winning and not getting the popular vote. It is how we got DT.

Biden won both the popular vote and the Electoral College.

But yes, if this kind of split that happened with Bush and Trump continues to occur in greater frequency, then there will be increased pressure to change the system. But an amendment would take a large amount of bipartisan political will, and some time.

When was the last time the GOP won the popular vote for president?

Answer: only once in the last 34 years (2004) ;)

[Chuck Naill]

Popular vote should rule. This would require a Constitutional amendment.

So be it. We are at a place where someone is winning and not getting the popular vote. It is how we got DT.

Biden won both the popular vote and the Electoral College.

But yes, if this kind of split that happened with Bush and Trump continues to occur in greater frequency, then there will be increased pressure to change the system. But an amendment would take a large amount of bipartisan political will, and some time.

When was the last time the GOP won the popular vote for president?

Answer: only once in the last 34 years (2004) ;)

I didn't realize that about Republican not receiving the popular vote.

I was reminded of Lincoln's words which have surely not come to pass. "
"that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom --
and that government
OF the PEOPLE,
BY the PEOPLE,
FOR the PEOPLE,
shall not perish from the earth."

[Chuck Naill]

This started with Hillary's team and the 2016 election. Claiming that the Russians jacked the election implied that the results were invalid. If the election was invalid

Clinton won the popular vote, @Pendragon, by 2.9 million votes.

[manoeuver]

Popular vote should rule.
Absolutely not. The States elect the President. This is an essential check on the power of the presidency.

but that's a discussion for another time.

Chuck, I think we disagree about the motivations and causes of the Jan 6 debacle.
I think it was more about demanding transparency in our elections, I don't believe many folks involved thought they'd actually overturn the result of the election, (if they did they were of course very stupid.)

The trespassing and violence seem to be at least in part (if not wholly, which is also plausible) provoked by bad actors with the intent to discredit Trump and open the door for persecuting those who supported him.
This line of thinking is totally in line with the FBI's MO regarding the Whitmer kidnapping plot and their approach to Islamic terrorism after 9/11.

The people with the motivation to obfuscate those motives and tactics also currently hold the power to do so.

I think I'm going to duck out of this fraught conversation at this time, I appreciate the grown-up tone folks have maintained.

[Chuck Naill]

[QUOTE=Chuck Naill;350496]

I think I'm going to duck out of this fraught conversation at this time, I appreciate the grown-up tone folks have maintained.

Sounds good. Please come back if you want to engage. This is a transcript of the former presidents speech on January 6, 2021.

[Chuck Naill]

Good for GOP Senator Mike Rounds.

[Chuck Naill]

Finally,
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/10/politics/trump-civil-liability-insurrection-court-hearing/index.html

[kazoolaw]

Why is William Evans' death related to January 6?

[Chuck Naill]

? No idea

[kazoolaw]

Was the "stop the steal" attack on the Capitol an "insurrection"? From the evidence, it seems more like a last-ditch attempt to stop the US Congress from counting the Electoral Votes that were to make Joe Biden President, rather than Donald Trump. It was an attempt to stop the normal operation under the US Constitution by which Americans change Presidents. The mob attempted to overthrow the Constitution. That makes it treason. (And, yes, I was a history major long, long ago, and I know that few people except for spies have been convicted of treason.)

Sorry not to get back sooner.

No, Trump was not guilty of insurrection: he was acquitted of that claim in his second impeachment trial.

Who said this: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." Yup, that pesky Constitution. No "levying war."

We don't get to make up our own definitions as we go along. That's a good thing for both sides.

[kazoolaw]

Why is William Evans' death related to January 6?



? No idea

Capitol police officer William Evans was killed April 2, 2021 in the car attack which injured another officer. The driver brandished a knife, and was shot and killed. You can research the driver's ties to radical groups. You can also decide whether the attempts by Biden, Harris, and other politicians, was an attempt to inflate the effect of Janurary 6, 2021.

[Chuck Naill]

January 6 2020 occrured. Trump’s speech transcript is readily available.

[TSherbs]

Well, there ya go: sedition charges

NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth: Two North Texas ‘Oath Keepers' Charged With Seditious Conspiracy in Jan. 6 Attack.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/two-north-texas-oath-keepers-charged-with-seditious-conspiracy-in-jan-6-attack-on-congress/2858086/

[Chuck Naill]

I sort of feel for these people being charged and convicted. They thought they were following the right person. There is no way, surely, they knew the historcial Trump. At least Hitler fought in WW1.

[welch]

From Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/a-bloody-desperate-fight-us-prosecutors-release-oath-keepers-communications-2022-01-13/?fbclid=IwAR1qz519PQXSYJa3mvxQRUzDTK8II5PoafesU_4k PDdk492k4EbSdCg6GeM




'A bloody and desperate fight:' U.S. prosecutors release Oath Keepers' communications
Reuters

Jan 13 (Reuters) - Here are excerpts of communications that Stewart Rhodes, founder of the far-right Oath Keepers militia, had with his allies in the run-up to and after the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol, according to prosecutors, who on Thursday charged him and 10 alleged members of the group with seditious conspiracy.

NOVEMBER 2020

The indictment says Rhodes, of Granbury, Texas, started disseminating messages on encrypted applications to his followers in November 2020, encouraging them to "oppose by force the lawful transfer of presidential power."

On Nov. 5, two days after the election, he sent a message on the Signal message service that read: "We aren't getting through this without a civil war. Too late for that. Prepare your mind body, spirit."

DECEMBER 2020

On Dec. 11, Rhodes sent a message to an invitation-only group chat on Signal, telling them that if Democrat Joe Biden took over the presidency "it will be a bloody and desperate fight. We are going to have a fight. That can't be avoided.'



On Christmas Day, Rhodes wrote that Congress would likely "screw" then-President Donald Trump over and the only chance he has is if "we scare the shit out of them and convince them it will be torches and pitchforks..."

JAN. 6, 2021

Just before 1:30 p.m. on the day of the attack Rhodes told people in the Signal chat: Vice President Mike "Pence is doing nothing. As I predicted."

He added: "All I see Trump doing is complaining. I see no intent by him to do anything. So the patriots are taking it into their own hands. They've had enough."

Rhodes told people that those who gathered at the Capitol were not members of antifa, the loosely organized anti-fascism movement. Asked by an associate who was in the mobs storming the Capitol, Rhodes replied: "Actual Patriots. Pissed off patriots. Like the Sons of Liberty were pissed off patriots."

Again, the indictment says that they attempted to "oppose by force the lawful transfer of presidential power." I call it "treason", since it was an attempt to overthrow by force a key piece of the Constitution. That's my private grumble, as I said earlier. Not a legal opinion.

[TSherbs]

What the fuck did that guy think he was doing? Anyway, they are in some deep legal doodoo now, even though sedition is so rarely charged.

[Chuck Naill]

I heard the prosecutors were wanting to make that particular indictment. Will it be hard to prove? Will they use as a defense that the former President had told them what to do? If so, can Trump be then legally indicted? I've read often you go after the underling first.

And Kevin McCarthy isn't going to testify. It is a big mess, but justice needs to occur.

[TSherbs]

My guess is that they'll go for the "metaphor" and "rhetoric" defense: it was never meant literally, it's just the rhetoric of wack job losers on the internet who then ended up in DC storming the barricaded doors of the Capitol seeking out the chamber where one of the most important processes of democracy was taking place in order to prevent it.

Oh wait. That might fall under the definition of sedition.

Oops.

[kazoolaw]

Well, there ya go: sedition charges

NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth: Two North Texas ‘Oath Keepers' Charged With Seditious Conspiracy in Jan. 6 Attack.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/two-north-texas-oath-keepers-charged-with-seditious-conspiracy-in-jan-6-attack-on-congress/2858086/

Appreciated the attempt of the cited item to put some perspective into the story by noting the sedition charges in Michigan several years ago were dismissed. Ther was also a Fort Smith case in which defendants were found not guilty.
It also points out a successful sedition prosecution when people attacked the Capital and actually shot several House representatives. I don't recall any gunshots on 1/6 from anyone but a police officer. Am I remembering wrong?

[kazoolaw]

Again, the indictment says that they attempted to "oppose by force the lawful transfer of presidential power." I call it "treason", since it was an attempt to overthrow by force a key piece of the Constitution. That's my private grumble, as I said earlier. Not a legal opinion.

Thank you for your clarification of the actual definition of treason and your opinion.
Particularly when crimes with specific definitions are involved it's important to understand what is and what is not involved. "Sedition" is serious enough without attaching it to the emotional impact of "treason."

[Chuck Naill]

Treason was a term Trump used against Milley.

[kazoolaw]

Like a wise guy said, "We don't get to make up our own definitions as we go along. That's a good thing for both sides."

[Chuck Naill]

Who said it?

[kazoolaw]

>blush< See, Post 61.

[TSherbs]

My guess is that they'll go for the "metaphor" and "rhetoric" defense: it was never meant literally, it's just the rhetoric of wack job losers on the internet who then ended up in DC storming the barricaded doors of the Capitol seeking out the chamber where one of the most important processes of democracy was taking place in order to prevent it.

Oh wait. That might fall under the definition of sedition.

Oops.

Allegedly, we can add to this a plan to take over the Capitol and then bring in more people and the guns the next day (they have the evidence of the weapons and the recordings and messages re the plan).

[TSherbs]

So I suppose we should also be discussing January 7, 2021. 🤔

[TSherbs]

We'll learn some more, I suppose:

Yahoo News: Supreme Court allows Jan. 6 committee to get Trump documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-allows-jan-6-231723227.html

[TSherbs]

Escape tunnels, what? That's my wine cellar!

POLITICO: Oath Keepers founder is ordered detained pending trial in Jan. 6 riot

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/26/oath-keepers-founder-detained-jan-6-riot-00002603

And yup, they've already deployed the "that's just rhetoric" defense.

[TSherbs]

44 months for this criminal:

CBS News: QAnon follower Nicholas Languerand, who admitted he assaulted officers on January 6, sentenced to 44 months in prison.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/january-6-nicolas-languerand-qanon-assault-sentence-44-months/?ftag=CNM-00-10aag7e

[Chuck Naill]

He'll be pardoned when Trump is back in office. So, 24 months or so.

[TSherbs]

We'll see.

[Chuck Naill]

@tsherbs, did you know this?
" The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 Capitol attack issued 14 subpoenas on Friday to people who falsely claimed to be electors for President Donald J. Trump in the 2020 election in states that were actually won by Joseph R. Biden Jr., digging deeper into Mr. Trump’s efforts to overturn the results."

[TSherbs]

Yes, I did see this. I think that they are looking into the fraud angle with these persons.

[Chuck Naill]

Yes, I did see this. I think that they are looking into the fraud angle with these persons.

Ironic isn't it that the people crying foul are the ones cheating.

[Chuck Naill]

As I predicted, trump says he will pardon the j 6 folks.

[TSherbs]

As I predicted, trump says he’s pardon j 6 folks.
He should be standing trial along side his yahoo followers.

[TSherbs]

The flailing of a desperate man:

Business Insider: Trump calls for nationwide protests if prosecutors 'do anything illegal'.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-calls-for-mass-nationwide-protests-prosecutors-investigating-him-2022-1

[Chuck Naill]

Trump would be the dictator if he could figure out how. Many here don't understand what he would do if he had the opportunity. He is still blaming his VP for not overturning the popular vote.

[manoeuver]

Allegedly, we can add to this a plan to take over the Capitol and then bring in more people and the guns the next day (they have the evidence of the weapons and the recordings and messages re the plan).

Love to see how many participants were working for or with the FBI.

[Chuck Naill]

I guess that’s the latest conspiracy.

[TSherbs]

Allegedly, we can add to this a plan to take over the Capitol and then bring in more people and the guns the next day (they have the evidence of the weapons and the recordings and messages re the plan).

Love to see how many participants were working for or with the FBI.

I hope so. Good to know that the feds are keeping their eyes on the crazies.

Also interesting: a number of these folks are ex-police and/or ex-military.

[Chuck Naill]

I watched a Front-Line program last night in which the female shot in the attack on the capital was shown. There was footage of where the protestors were cleared, with tear gas, to make room for Trump to walk across the street and hold a Bible. There was footage of the late Senator John McCain giving a thumbs down allowing millions to retain the health insurance that had come to depend. There were self appointed men in Texas standing on the border with automatic firearms. There was footage of a man running down protestors in Virgina. There was footage of Trump insulting anyone who didn't line up, lock step behind him.

This is not something fabricated by a liberal media source. It was actual film footage of historical events.

[Chuck Naill]

Putin's spin reminds me of Trump.

[manoeuver]

I guess that’s the latest conspiracy.

Latest? Please.

Question for you, at what point did the FBI become trustworthy, and did it happen to coincide with their targeting of Trump and other conservative-leaning Americans?

It's literally the same playbook they used to target Muslims after 9/11. Dismissing established behavior patterns as conspiracy theory is fucking weak sauce and you know it.

The transformation of garden-variety dems from civil liberty defenders to boot-licking authoritarians is one of the more unfortunate developments of the 21st Century.
It's not even fun arguing with you anymore because you stand for NOTHING.

You SUCK at this.

[Chuck Naill]

Whataboutthisism at best. Care to try again? LOL!!

[manoeuver]

Whataboutthisism at best. Care to try again? LOL!!

Please explain to me why I shouldn't be highly suspicious of the FBI given their track record.

Please explain to me how casting aspersions of conspiracy is a logical or effective retort.

I'd like to understand if there's a reason for the Left's embrace of the Intelligence Community outside of sheer politics and their current targets. Help me understand. Please.

LOL all you want, I'm asking you for a thoughtful paragraph or two.

Your attempts at pith continue to suck shit. (This is where you might have used another midwit cliche like do better but I decline.)

[dneal]

"Whataboutism": A rhetorical device to dismiss clearly demonstrated hypocrisy.

[TSherbs]

Whataboutthisism at best. Care to try again? LOL!!

Please explain to me why I shouldn't be highly suspicious of the FBI given their track record.

Please explain to me how casting aspersions of conspiracy is a logical or effective retort.

I'd like to understand if there's a reason for the Left's embrace of the Intelligence Community outside of sheer politics and their current targets. Help me understand. Please.

LOL all you want, I'm asking you for a thoughtful paragraph or two.

Your attempts at pith continue to suck shit. (This is where you might have used another midwit cliche like do better but I decline.)
What are you worried that the FBI did relative to Jan 6? Are you asserting that, for example, the Proud Boys we're being run by FBI agents? No one is suggesting that you should lose your distaste for the FBI. But what are you saying that they did to the Proud Boys, or to anyone else organizing potential assaults on the Capitol?

[Chuck Naill]

Whataboutthisism at best. Care to try again? LOL!!

Please explain to me why I shouldn't be highly suspicious of the FBI given their track record.

Please explain to me how casting aspersions of conspiracy is a logical or effective retort.

I'd like to understand if there's a reason for the Left's embrace of the Intelligence Community outside of sheer politics and their current targets. Help me understand. Please.

LOL all you want, I'm asking you for a thoughtful paragraph or two.

Your attempts at pith continue to suck shit. (This is where you might have used another midwit cliche like do better but I decline.)

You are asking me to provide evidence for something, for which you didn't provide evidence, to show you are correct. That is indeed laughable. What a "stupid son of a bitch". LOL!!

I would also like a thoughtful paragraph. Have you thought through anything you believe? If Tucker says the FBI was involved, do you do any due diligence toward discovery?

[manoeuver]

What are you worried that the FBI did relative to Jan 6? Are you asserting that, for example, the Proud Boys we're being run by FBI agents? No one is suggesting that you should lose your distaste for the FBI. But what are you saying that they did to the Proud Boys, or to anyone else organizing potential assaults on the Capitol?

These are good questions.

I am suspicious that Jan 6th plans amounting to insurrection were encouraged by FBI informants or agents inside right-wing groups.

The FBI is notorious for infiltrating fringe groups and encouraging or even instigating terror plots. This was their playbook targeting Muslims post 9/11 and recently with the Whitmer kidnapping fiasco.

A quick search turned up this result. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/27/proud-boys-leader-enrique-tarrio-fbi-informant

then there's this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-proud-boys-member-and-fbi-informant-was-texting-his-handler-during-the-january-6-capitol-riot-report-says/ar-AAOOyy3

these aren't right-wing or conspiracy-tinged news sources either. It appears to me that aspects of Jan 6 were absolutely a set-up, and it seems to have worked.

[dneal]

You obviously watch too much Tucker!!! LOL!!!

;)

[manoeuver]

You are asking me to provide evidence for something, for which you didn't provide evidence, to show you are correct. That is indeed laughable. What a "stupid son of a bitch". LOL!!

I would also like a thoughtful paragraph. Have you thought through anything you believe? If Tucker says the FBI was involved, do you do any due diligence toward discovery?

Chuck, if you care to follow any of my opinions back to the source, you will find my principles. The pertinent principles at this time include:


My distrust of all mainstream news media, (including Tucker Carlson, who I've never watched.)
My loathing of those (of any party or political persuasion) who seek to centralize power, especially in the US Federal Government.
My sincere desire to tell the truth when I think I've apprehended it, and to seek the truth when I have not.
My complete disgust at attempts by people to control other people in thought, deed or otherwise.


Do you have a list Chuck? Love to see it.

[Chuck Naill]

You are asking me to provide evidence for something, for which you didn't provide evidence, to show you are correct. That is indeed laughable. What a "stupid son of a bitch". LOL!!

I would also like a thoughtful paragraph. Have you thought through anything you believe? If Tucker says the FBI was involved, do you do any due diligence toward discovery?

Chuck, if you care to follow any of my opinions back to the source, you will find my principles. The pertinent principles at this time include:


My distrust of all mainstream news media, (including Tucker Carlson, who I've never watched.)
My loathing of those (of any party or political persuasion) who seek to centralize power, especially in the US Federal Government.
My sincere desire to tell the truth when I think I've apprehended it, and to seek the truth when I have not.
My complete disgust at attempts by people to control other people in thought, deed or otherwise.


Do you have a list Chuck? Love to see it.

No list. I am not as paranoid. I read both sides of the issue. I do tend to focus on quotes and videos of persons of interest to form my opinions.

For example, I read the transcript of Trump's Jan 6 2021 speech. I watched the videos of the insurrection. If there were no evidence the FBI was involved, I can either choose to think its a coverup and dismiss until proven true.

[dneal]

I read both sides of the issue. I do tend to focus on quotes and videos of persons of interest to form my opinions.

I about fell out of my chair laughing at this.

[Chuck Naill]

I've posted the transcript of Trump's January 6th speech and videos of the insurrection. I do not post or look at what Steve Bannon says as you do. Nor do I post half quotes and misquote as you do. So, get you butt back in your chair and chew on that @dneal.

[dneal]

Feel better? LOL!!!

[TSherbs]

What are you worried that the FBI did relative to Jan 6? Are you asserting that, for example, the Proud Boys we're being run by FBI agents? No one is suggesting that you should lose your distaste for the FBI. But what are you saying that they did to the Proud Boys, or to anyone else organizing potential assaults on the Capitol?

These are good questions.

I am suspicious that Jan 6th plans amounting to insurrection were encouraged by FBI informants or agents inside right-wing groups.

The FBI is notorious for infiltrating fringe groups and encouraging or even instigating terror plots. This was their playbook targeting Muslims post 9/11 and recently with the Whitmer kidnapping fiasco.

A quick search turned up this result. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/27/proud-boys-leader-enrique-tarrio-fbi-informant

then there's this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-proud-boys-member-and-fbi-informant-was-texting-his-handler-during-the-january-6-capitol-riot-report-says/ar-AAOOyy3

these aren't right-wing or conspiracy-tinged news sources either. It appears to me that aspects of Jan 6 were absolutely a set-up, and it seems to have worked.

Thanks for the references. I have just read them. They are quite specific and informative. I knew about the first case, since it came out a year ago and hit my news feed. The second one was news to me.

manoeuver, I have admiration for your spirit and contributions to this site on many threads. You are clearly less trusting of the central media than I (I have taught some media studies classes to high schoolers, for what that is worth). Interestingly you excoriate the NYT in another post, but you also reference them here for their info on the second article.

Let me just say this about these cases that you reference because I appreciate your bothering to post them here: they do not worry me the way that they worry you (this is about the levels of distrust that we feel). In the first case, the Proud Boy member was an informant on other (and much earlier) nasty felony activities unrelated to the Proud Boys and worthy of FBI monitoring. I applaud the use of this informant to help monitor human trafficking, for example. The second case is mitigated (in my mind) because the informant's information is actually not helpful to the government and is causing them problems. The presence of FBI informants in groups that are discussing the transport of caches of weapons to DC and discussing the desire to contravene in the lawful transfer of power from one elected official (highest in the land) to another is exactly what I want. This is what good policing does. This is what these entities get blasted for when they do *not* monitor: "How could you not have known what was going to happen? It was all over these message boards...." Etc. The Proud Boys and any group like them *expect* to be watched and monitored, including by informants. This is what the military is expected to do. This is what the police are expected to do. This is what The CIA is expected to do. This is what the FBI is expected to do.

I need more than just your apprehension that the informants are actually making decisions for the Proud Boys for me to start to get worried that these *couple* (one?) of informants (again, your first example is not of an active informant) are indications that something is awry.

Although you and Chuck are involved in something of a spat, I think that his point was that without more evidence than this, your worry is mostly fear-based conjecture of possible intentional damaging meddling, which he is labeling "conspiracy." I don't think that your response is a conspiracy theory....yet. But this could be one step toward it, depending on how far you continue to construct an actual narrative with a plot line, etc.

[dneal]

Curious that TSherbs and Chuck never show the same level of skepticism with things Trump or GOP related…

[manoeuver]

What are you worried that the FBI did relative to Jan 6? Are you asserting that, for example, the Proud Boys we're being run by FBI agents? No one is suggesting that you should lose your distaste for the FBI. But what are you saying that they did to the Proud Boys, or to anyone else organizing potential assaults on the Capitol?

These are good questions.

I am suspicious that Jan 6th plans amounting to insurrection were encouraged by FBI informants or agents inside right-wing groups.

The FBI is notorious for infiltrating fringe groups and encouraging or even instigating terror plots. This was their playbook targeting Muslims post 9/11 and recently with the Whitmer kidnapping fiasco.

A quick search turned up this result. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/27/proud-boys-leader-enrique-tarrio-fbi-informant

then there's this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-proud-boys-member-and-fbi-informant-was-texting-his-handler-during-the-january-6-capitol-riot-report-says/ar-AAOOyy3

these aren't right-wing or conspiracy-tinged news sources either. It appears to me that aspects of Jan 6 were absolutely a set-up, and it seems to have worked.

Thanks for the references. I have just read them. They are quite specific and informative. I knew about the first case, since it came out a year ago and hit my news feed. The second one was news to me.

manoeuver, I have admiration for your spirit and contributions to this site on many threads. You are clearly less trusting of the central media than I (I have taught some media studies classes to high schoolers, for what that is worth). Interestingly you excoriate the NYT in another post, but you also reference them here for their info on the second article.

Let me just say this about these cases that you reference because I appreciate your bothering to post them here: they do not worry me the way that they worry you (this is about the levels of distrust that we feel). In the first case, the Proud Boy member was an informant on other (and much earlier) nasty felony activities unrelated to the Proud Boys and worthy of FBI monitoring. I applaud the use of this informant to help monitor human trafficking, for example. The second case is mitigated (in my mind) because the informant's information is actually not helpful to the government and is causing them problems. The presence of FBI informants in groups that are discussing the transport of caches of weapons to DC and discussing the desire to contravene in the lawful transfer of power from one elected official (highest in the land) to another is exactly what I want. This is what good policing does. This is what these entities get blasted for when they do *not* monitor: "How could you not have known what was going to happen? It was all over these message boards...." Etc. The Proud Boys and any group like them *expect* to be watched and monitored, including by informants. This is what the military is expected to do. This is what the police are expected to do. This is what The CIA is expected to do. This is what the FBI is expected to do.

I need more than just your apprehension that the informants are actually making decisions for the Proud Boys for me to start to get worried that these *couple* (one?) of informants (again, your first example is not of an active informant) are indications that something is awry.

Although you and Chuck are involved in something of a spat, I think that his point was that without more evidence than this, your worry is mostly fear-based conjecture of possible intentional damaging meddling, which he is labeling "conspiracy." I don't think that your response is a conspiracy theory....yet. But this could be one step toward it, depending on how far you continue to construct an actual narrative with a plot line, etc.

Thanks TSherbs. Truth be told those were the first two hits on a simple web search.

I posted them as evidence of the idea that the FBI had its mitts on J6 after Chuck dismissed it as a conspiracy and you asked for specifics.

I appreciate your thoughts on good policing/intelligence work. You are right about that, and that shines a light on where my paranoia may be overblown. Maybe.

My contention remains: the FBI has a history of instigating plots among the disaffected and gullible, then boasting about plots they foiled that wouldn't exist without their care and feeding. J6 was the highest concentration of disaffected and gullible people in recent memory, by an order of magnitude. All the ingredients are there, in copious quantity.

In some places around the Capitol barricades were broken down. In other places police opened doors and let protesters inside. We'll never unravel everything that happened. I suspect it was, at least in part, a setup. The goal was to delegitimize DJT and demonize his supporters, opening them up for prosecution as domestic terrorists. Perhaps I'm giving certain folks too much credit, but that goal was more or less achieved. I understand these claims are difficult to prove or disprove, so I'm choosing my words carefully.

Everything about J6 stinks. It smells to me a lot like the FBI, but what do I know? What a clusterfuck.

[TSherbs]

@manoeuver

My sense is that those members of law enforcement who let people inside the Capitol were sympathetic to the cause (like those who had their pictures taken with them). Or just scared and foolish.

And I certainly don't claim that the FBI always has clean hands. So time will tell if there was anything more dubious going on.

[Chuck Naill]

For a conspiracy or myth to generate only requires a few things to exist. One that was mentioned was a distrust of government. On other threads we have seen a distrust of vaccines. So, a distrust of government like the FDA or CDC coupled with a distrust of vaccines aka "Big Pharma" and all that is needed is for a post of FB or other social media outlet and the myth is made and then repeated.

We saw some missteps/ communication by the FBI related to the 2016 election. Trump and Comey didn't get along. Trump vilified the agency. It went on and on. That said, I would not expect the FBI to be trying to help Trump overturn an election, but it may have occurred. I'd need good journalistic evidence.

David Brooks and the NYT were also disparaged on this thread and I suspect by someone who has never had a subscription nor any of his books. I can say this because the perception of liberality is a myth. I have a subscription and find their opinion section fairly broad.

Brook's has several books:
The Road to Character
The Second Mountain
Bobos in Paradise

He has recently written the demographic conflicts between coastal elites and blue collar America. I do believe it is true and why some didn't like Obama and why these same people came to see Trump as their savior. Trump represented a correction toward fairness for white people and less educated people to be heard.

This "correction" led to wide spread distrust for science, Black Lives Matter, big corporations, liberal mentalities, or anything they felt had taken away their ability to do as they please as was done in the 1950's. I have read many times on this and other forums for a yearning for the good old days when men went to work, stayed there 40 years, retired, and had a wonderful retirement. What they are unaware of is, black people in the US were not allowed to compete for those conditions. When they were finally able to attend better schools, own homes on credit, live in better neighborhoods, be allowed entrance, the white people felt threatened. This is historically true. It is not a myth or conspiracy. Ive seen it first hand.

What I think all Americans need to consider is the role we play in our day to day actions and conversations. I personally am very concerned about a second Trump administration. After reading John Woodward, John Bolton, and Mary Trump, I got three perspectives on the man and for what he is capable of doing. My business experience has taught me what unrestrained sales force damage can inflict in term of paying for support. Beware of a man who says he "alone can fix".

Here is a sobering op-ed that may or may not come about, but it is something to consider.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/02/opinion/trump-republicans-2025.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE IPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DPDm4Y iOMNAo6B_EGKebB-YsN2xTmDWdVFMbQmQuc3lLcFYgptVwys6NOiqagyHh8U-8i1T39kmNXER6w5-jvnKTWwIbgun7e0-k_cbzX1XKXUhGkrJwY0vZRucVCriSYIkfzOEfVnmYUrhYdXDZh 4RzoHYimKveC5SEktfYXbMWyPr1U-SOpbWjrMnNWD6rhmcA5aDVzOSXkX8n9roZoHe4tRZPCjWkZmLM nugrwRCXhqLpOrA_AyRIvTkbZss93duBc5O77o-ztnmOxMbGSUpFU&smid=url-share

[Chuck Naill]

@manoeuver

My sense is that those members of law enforcement who let people inside the Capitol were sympathetic to the cause (like those who had their pictures taken with them). Or just scared and foolish.

And I certainly don't claim that the FBI always has clean hands. So time will tell if there was anything more dubious going on.

Well, well, well....
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/04/tucker-carlson/tucker-carlsons-conspiracy-theory-about-fbi-and-ja/

[dneal]

Next up, Chuck cites Wikipedia to “prove” his point on a contentious topic - because the only thing more reliable than 20-somethings “fact checking” is random people editing Wikipedia entries.

[Chuck Naill]

Or, @dneal misquotes Thomas Sowell to say vaccines are bad. Or, Steve Bannon's commencement talk to tell Millennials their lives have no future. Now that's information you can take to the bank.

[dneal]

Lol, I didn’t misquote Sowell. You think you know what Bannon says because you read someone else’s take on it. Your “I study both sides” lie you tell yourself. When given the opportunity to actually listen to what Bannon said, you get scared and talk trash.

That’s one fragile echo chamber you live in.

[Chuck Naill]

Pence says Trump is/was wrong regarding election. How does that sit with the local Trumpians (just those that actually voted)?

[TSherbs]

Pence says Trump is/was wrong regarding election. How does that sit with the local Trumpians (just those that actually voted)?

This doesn't matter to the conspiracy theorists about the machines, paper ballots, dead voters, black suitcases, etc. Pence is outside of those theories (except some of the craziest ones) because he was someone who ended up using reason and following his conscience and the wisdom of precedent (yes, even Dan Quayle had that wisdom). These conspiracies don't have much to do with Pence.

[TSherbs]

@manoeuver

My sense is that those members of law enforcement who let people inside the Capitol were sympathetic to the cause (like those who had their pictures taken with them). Or just scared and foolish.

And I certainly don't claim that the FBI always has clean hands. So time will tell if there was anything more dubious going on.

Well, well, well....
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/04/tucker-carlson/tucker-carlsons-conspiracy-theory-about-fbi-and-ja/

Not surprised (no evidence found of FBI influence in Jan 6).

[Chuck Naill]

@manoeuver

My sense is that those members of law enforcement who let people inside the Capitol were sympathetic to the cause (like those who had their pictures taken with them). Or just scared and foolish.

And I certainly don't claim that the FBI always has clean hands. So time will tell if there was anything more dubious going on.

Well, well, well....
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/04/tucker-carlson/tucker-carlsons-conspiracy-theory-about-fbi-and-ja/

Not surprised (no evidence found of FBI influence in Jan 6).

At least we now know where the memeber's suggestion the FBI was involved originated.

[Chuck Naill]

I am just now learning about the Canadian Convoy and Trump's insults toward Trudeau.

[manoeuver]

@manoeuver

My sense is that those members of law enforcement who let people inside the Capitol were sympathetic to the cause (like those who had their pictures taken with them). Or just scared and foolish.

And I certainly don't claim that the FBI always has clean hands. So time will tell if there was anything more dubious going on.

Well, well, well....
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/04/tucker-carlson/tucker-carlsons-conspiracy-theory-about-fbi-and-ja/

Not surprised (no evidence found of FBI influence in Jan 6).

At least we now know where the memeber's suggestion the FBI was involved originated.

If you're insinuating TC was the first and only guy to suspect the FBI was involved in J6, I don't know how to respond to you.

That you'd (smugly) post blatant propaganda as evidence of such isn't surprising.

That you've accused me of lacking critical thinking skills continues to be hilarious.

I'll leave you alone now, you probably have a Psaki press conference to watch and believe.

[Chuck Naill]

@manoeuver

My sense is that those members of law enforcement who let people inside the Capitol were sympathetic to the cause (like those who had their pictures taken with them). Or just scared and foolish.

And I certainly don't claim that the FBI always has clean hands. So time will tell if there was anything more dubious going on.

Well, well, well....
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/04/tucker-carlson/tucker-carlsons-conspiracy-theory-about-fbi-and-ja/

Not surprised (no evidence found of FBI influence in Jan 6).

At least we now know where the memeber's suggestion the FBI was involved originated.

If you're insinuating TC was the first and only guy to suspect the FBI was involved in J6, I don't know how to respond to you.

That you'd (smugly) post blatant propaganda as evidence of such isn't surprising.

That you've accused me of lacking critical thinking skills continues to be hilarious.

I'll leave you alone now, you probably have a Psaki press conference to watch and believe.

Not insinuating anything about then origins of the conspiracy. There has been a chorus of Republicans calling those that attacked the capital (Legitimate Political Discourse), patriots (perhaps it is time to erect a monument of Ashli Babbitt). A patriot does not try to overturn the will of the electorate. Blaming the FBI is a way to suggest the people who attacked are not at fault.

We have the availabilty of the transcript of the speech Trump gave before the attack on the capital. There should be no confusion who caused the insurrection nor what his motive was when giving the speech. He even said he would be there with him. Like the bully coward he is, he didn't join those he sent.

We all probably have experienced bully cowards as we were growing up. I see TC, as you call him, and many Republican Trumpians this way.

[Chuck Naill]

INHO, Mike Pence is a flawed speaker for God, Christianity, or holder of the public trust.

[manoeuver]

Not insinuating anything about then origins of the conspiracy. There has been a chorus of Republicans calling those that attacked the capital (Legitimate Political Discourse), patriots (perhaps it is time to erect a monument of Ashli Babbitt). A patriot does not try to overturn the will of the electorate. Blaming the FBI is a way to suggest the people who attacked are not at fault.

We have the availabilty of the transcript of the speech Trump gave before the attack on the capital. There should be no confusion who caused the insurrection nor what his motive was when giving the speech. He even said he would be there with him. Like the bully coward he is, he didn't join those he sent.

We all probably have experienced bully cowards as we were growing up. I see TC, as you call him, and many Republican Trumpians this way.

ok, this is interesting.
You say: "A patriot does not try to overturn the will of the electorate." which seems fair.
Seems to me the entire reason for the J6 demonstration before the Capitol breach was that the demonstrators believed the will of the electorate had in fact already been thwarted.

I find it hard to believe there was a credible threat or coherent plan to prevent the turnover of power, despite some people's deranged idea that Pence would somehow come through for them that way.
Based on Trump's recent ramblings I think that may have been his whole plan. He was awful at leveraging whatever power he had.

Can you really spin up a same-day insurrection with one speech? Unarmed? against the United States?
Chuck, you must admit it seems unlikely.

I posit that you give Trump too much credit.

Even if he had dreams of a dictatorship he never demonstrated a fraction of the competence required to make it happen.

[Chuck Naill]

Not insinuating anything about then origins of the conspiracy. There has been a chorus of Republicans calling those that attacked the capital (Legitimate Political Discourse), patriots (perhaps it is time to erect a monument of Ashli Babbitt). A patriot does not try to overturn the will of the electorate. Blaming the FBI is a way to suggest the people who attacked are not at fault.

We have the availabilty of the transcript of the speech Trump gave before the attack on the capital. There should be no confusion who caused the insurrection nor what his motive was when giving the speech. He even said he would be there with him. Like the bully coward he is, he didn't join those he sent.

We all probably have experienced bully cowards as we were growing up. I see TC, as you call him, and many Republican Trumpians this way.

ok, this is interesting.
You say: "A patriot does not try to overturn the will of the electorate." which seems fair.
Seems to me the entire reason for the J6 demonstration before the Capitol breach was that the demonstrators believed the will of the electorate had in fact already been thwarted.

I find it hard to believe there was a credible threat or coherent plan to prevent the turnover of power, despite some people's deranged idea that Pence would somehow come through for them that way.
Based on Trump's recent ramblings I think that may have been his whole plan. He was awful at leveraging whatever power he had.

Can you really spin up a same-day insurrection with one speech? Unarmed? against the United States?
Chuck, you must admit it seems unlikely.

I posit that you give Trump too much credit.

Even if he had dreams of a dictatorship he never demonstrated a fraction of the competence required to make it happen.

I have always been a literalist. I read the transcript and believed Trump meant what he said. Well, I didn't think he would show up.

When he boasted of grabbing females' genitalia, I believed he was serious.

When he said John McCain was not a hero because he got caught, I figured that's what he thought.

Should I continue?

[TSherbs]

....I find it hard to believe there was a credible threat or coherent plan to prevent the turnover of power, despite some people's deranged idea that Pence would somehow come through for them that way...

The current congressional hearing is pursuing exactly this possibility, whether it is hard to believe or not. It does not need to be "coherent" or even likely to succeed to be criminal.

Turns out persons had been discussing this demonstration and intervention for weeks. I remember dneal here in these threads stating that we did not know how serious and angry some of these persons were. My guess is that he must have seen some of the chatter somewhere or other. The Proud Boys, apparently, brought weapons to hotel rooms and in vehicles where there was a "plan" to retrieve them if needed.

Maybe they were stupid, uncoordinated idiots. But that does not make them innocent of these charges. We'll see.

But yes, there were other people there for just the spectacle of a good time. If they did not trespass and committed no assault on persons or property, then they will not be charged. The gathering on the mall was lawful and peaceful. Until it wasn't. And it looks like some people were hoping and planning for the criminal part, including preventing the transfer of power to the lawfully elected President. That is in the "treason conspiracy" category, seems to me.

[manoeuver]

I have always been a literalist. I read the transcript and believed Trump meant what he said. Well, I didn't think he would show up.

When he boasted of grabbing females' genitalia, I believed he was serious.

When he said John McCain was not a hero because he got caught, I figured that's what he thought.

Should I continue?

You literally believe everything Trump says.
Yes, by all means tell me more.

[TSherbs]

I'll add this about dissent: if you don't think that an election was "fair" or "honest," but all 50 states disagree with you and have certified and submitted their results in proper manner and time to Congress for acceptance, you don't have lawful, ethical, or moral grounds to contravene that process by trespass, property damage, assault, or conspiracy to kidnap, or simple sour grapes.

Not if you are the sitting President.
Not if you are a citizen.
Not if you are the Vice President (as Pence recently stated very clearly).

[TSherbs]

Rhodes to stay in jail:

CNN: DOJ reveals new Signal messages from Oath Keepers leader Stewart Rhodes.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/18/politics/doj-reveals-new-messages-oath-keepers-leader-stewart-rhodes/index.html

[Chuck Naill]

What I have always heard is that a prosecutor starts at the bottom and works their way to the top (Trump). Given that Trump has involved himself in the Canadian Shit Show, it is not hard for me to believe he likes what took place on 1/6/21 and would take an election by force if given the opportunity. Everything by force aka for The Art of the Deal.

Just like here, most of us can see the "hand writing on the wall". Some see it and imagine it's not there. Others are picking their nose.

[Chuck Naill]

I have always been a literalist. I read the transcript and believed Trump meant what he said. Well, I didn't think he would show up.

When he boasted of grabbing females' genitalia, I believed he was serious.

When he said John McCain was not a hero because he got caught, I figured that's what he thought.

Should I continue?

You literally believe everything Trump says.
Yes, by all means tell me more.

I can't figure out if you're blind or just plain stupid. Maybe you're deaf to.

[TSherbs]

The cult of Jan 6:

Business Insider: Georgia man who marched in DC on Jan. 6 now compares 'Stop the Steal' to a 'cult'.

https://www.businessinsider.com/stop-the-steal-trump-january-6-rally-washington-dc-cult-2022-2

[Chuck Naill]

The cult of Jan 6:

Business Insider: Georgia man who marched in DC on Jan. 6 now compares 'Stop the Steal' to a 'cult'.

https://www.businessinsider.com/stop-the-steal-trump-january-6-rally-washington-dc-cult-2022-2

Brooks introduced the concept of social capital in his most recent op-ed, "the networks of relationships among people who live and work in a particular society, enabling that society to function effectively".

[TSherbs]

Susan Collins' op-ed in the NYT on recording the Electoral Act. She's right, but I don't think that they have a chance to pass something. I'd like to be wrong, tho.

The New York Times: Susan Collins: Reform the Electoral Count Act to Avoid Another January 6.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/18/opinion/politics/susan-collins-eca-reform.html

[Chuck Naill]

Interestingly, but conservatism used to be about proceeding slowly with change. Now it is moving quickly if it produces more power.

[TSherbs]

A recap of the false electors attempt at mucking up the system:

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-joe-biden-presidential-elections-election-2020-electoral-college-311f88768b65f7196f52a4757dc162e4

[Chuck Naill]

Have any major news sources discussed the very people crying foul are themselves guilty of more blatant attempts to defraud the American electorate?

[dneal]

Have any major news sources discussed the very people crying foul are themselves guilty of more blatant attempts to defraud the American electorate?

What?

Are you talking about the Durham investigation?

[Chuck Naill]

On the Ukrainian thread someone posted about Putin being cornered and doing something dangerous. I immediately thought of January 6, 2021. In other words, going crazy is just part of being Trump and Putin.

[TSherbs]

First seditious conspiracy guilty plea:

ABC News: Oath Keeper is 1st to plead guilty to seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6, will cooperate with prosecutors.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/oath-keeper-pleads-guilty-seditious-conspiracy-jan-attack/story?id=83212947

[TSherbs]

Yeah, "legitimate political discourse":

ABC News: Capitol rioter from Idaho gets 4 years for attacking police.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/capitol-rioter-idaho-years-attacking-police-83258398

[Chuck Naill]

"All across the country, small groups of military veterans are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor."

"Hector served two violent tours in Iraq as a United States Marine, then got out, got a pension and a civilian job, and thought he was done with military service. But on Friday, he boarded a plane for one more deployment, this time as a volunteer in Ukraine. He checked in several bags filled with rifle scopes, helmets and body armor donated by other veterans.

“Sanctions can help, but sanctions can’t help right now, and people need help right now,” said the former Marine, who lives in Tampa Bay, Fla., and like other veterans interviewed for this article asked that only his first name be used for security reasons. “I can help right now.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html


I've been drawn to the contrast between storming the US capital and those fighting for their lives and country in Ukraine.

[dneal]

I've been drawn to the contrast between storming the US capital and those fighting for their lives and country in Ukraine.

There is quite the contrast. I think you meant “comparison”, though, which there is little.

[Chuck Naill]

No Tucky, I meant exactly what I wrote....LOL!!

[dneal]

The main difference between compare and contrast is that ‘compare’ means to represent things or objects in respect to similarity and ‘contrast’ means to represent things in respect of differences.

Ok. I agree then. There are enormous differences between the two.

[Chuck Naill]

The main difference between compare and contrast is that ‘compare’ means to represent things or objects in respect to similarity and ‘contrast’ means to represent things in respect of differences.

Ok. I agree then. There are enormous differences between the two.

You win the 2022 Dumb Ass award. Congratulations.

[dneal]

You win the 2022 Dumb Ass award. Congratulations.

Poor Chuck. Still out of ammo.


Ad hominem exchanges begin with someone who has run out of ammunition.

But who said this?


Maybe you're not simply a jerk. Maybe there is some pathology. However, it seems you are fixated on saying others are not intelligent...

Who has a pathological fixation on saying others are not intelligent?

Hmmm... Let's see.


...What an over educated dumb ass...


...If you don’t have anything better to say, why bother taking up space? Dumb!!...


...I can't figure out if you're blind or just plain stupid...

and now:


You win the 2022 Dumb Ass award. Congratulations.

[Chuck Naill]

How many deaths has your misinformation caused?

[dneal]

How many deaths has your misinformation caused?

Ask Fauci!!! ROFL!!!

[Chuck Naill]

LOL!!!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/donald-trump-is-furious-about-the-stumbling-launch-of-his-social-media-app-truth-social-report-says/ar-AAUGjIJ?ocid=msedgntp
Hey @dneal.

[dneal]

LMAO!!!

The C.D.C. Isn’t Publishing Large Portions of the Covid Data It Collects. (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/20/health/covid-cdc-data.html)

From the NYT, no less!!!


For more than a year, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has collected data on hospitalizations for Covid-19 in the United States and broken it down by age, race and vaccination status. But it has not made most of the information public.

When the C.D.C. published the first significant data on the effectiveness of boosters in adults younger than 65 two weeks ago, it left out the numbers for a huge portion of that population: 18- to 49-year-olds

What does Fauci have to hide? LOL!!!

[Chuck Naill]

I am good with the CDC and Fauci. They haven't done me wrong during the pandemic.,

[TSherbs]

This trial is entering closing arguments:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/jury-decide-fate-us-capitol-rioter-bellwether-trial-ends-2022-03-07/

[TSherbs]

Development in one of the cases:

POLITICO: Judge tosses obstruction charge against Jan. 6 defendant.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/07/judge-obstruction-charge-jan-6-defendant-00014843

[Chuck Naill]

Former Proud Boys Leader Indicted in Jan. 6 Investigation
A federal grand jury charged Enrique Tarrio with conspiracy in the Capitol attack last year, making him the second leader of a far-right group to face charges in the

[TSherbs]

And he didn't even go to Washington.

[Chuck Naill]

The long arm of the law.

[TSherbs]

This one is a bigger deal. Jury conviction on all counts, for Reffitt:

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-texas-riots-ded87e709176b8b68921cad2597ff2d7

[Chip]

This one is a bigger deal. Jury conviction on all counts, for Reffitt.

Well-deserved. Not only did he act in a violent manner at the Capitol, but he was carrying a pistol. Then he threatened to execute his two kids as "traitors."

Despite being quite obviously insane (Trumpmania) he didn't plead that way.

[TSherbs]

Heather Cox Richardson on decline of democracy abroad and in the US:



March 14, 2022
Heather Cox Richardson
Mar 15

Comment
Share
Today, Russia continued its offensive against Ukraine, striking hard at civilians in Kyiv and Mariupol. The Russian army is gaining ground, but it appears to be sustaining massive losses of personnel and equipment which, in turn, is making leaders focus on grinding Ukraine into submission through sheer brutality.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) announced that Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky will speak virtually to Congress on Wednesday morning. They said: “The Congress remains unwavering in our commitment to supporting Ukraine as they face [Russian president Vladimir] Putin’s cruel and diabolical aggression, and to passing legislation to cripple and isolate the Russian economy as well as deliver humanitarian, security and economic assistance to Ukraine. We look forward to the privilege of welcoming President Zelenskyy’s address to the House and Senate and to convey our support to the people of Ukraine as they bravely defend democracy.”

American focus on the horrors unleashed on Ukraine has clarified our own struggle between democracy and authoritarianism here at home.

In the Freedom House 2022 report on the dire threat to global freedom, released last month, authors Sarah Repucci and Amy Slipowitz noted that “democracies are being harmed from within by illiberal forces, including unscrupulous politicians willing to corrupt and shatter the very institutions that brought them to power.” Their primary example was that of the United States, which “has fallen below its traditional peers on key democratic indicators, including [presidential] elections, freedom from improper political influence, and equal treatment of minority groups.”

Repucci and Slipowitz explained that in the U.S. and elsewhere, “Undemocratic leaders and their supporters… have worked to reshape or manipulate political systems, in part by playing on voters’ fears of change in their way of life…. They have promoted the idea that, once in power, their responsibility is only to their own demographic or partisan base, disregarding other interests and segments of society and warping the institutions in their care so as to prolong their rule. Along the way, the democratic principles of pluralism, equality, and accountability—as well as basic stewardship and public service—have been lost, endangering the rights and well-being of all residents.”

To solidify their hold on power, they have spread distrust in elections, as former president Donald Trump famously did in the 2020 election season even before his loss to Democrat Joe Biden, claiming that he would only lose if there were fraud. National, state, and local officials lined up behind Trump to try to overturn the election results, spreading the Big Lie that Biden’s election was illegitimate. The result was the assault on the U.S. Capitol.

That failed, but those who backed it, as Repucci and Slipowitz note, “continue to exert significant influence on the US political system,” while those “who refused to display loyalty to the former leader faced political marginalization, severe intraparty pressure, and outright threats of violence.” They continue to push the lie that the Democrats stole the 2020 election and must be stopped before the 2022 midterms.

To that end, after Biden took office, 19 states passed 34 laws restrict*ing access to voting, and six states launched illegitimate partisan reviews of election results. The trend continues: according to the Brennan Center for Justice, an inde*pend*ent, nonpar*tisan law and policy organ*iz*a*tion defending U.S. demo*cracy and justice, as of January 14, 2022, lawmakers in at least 27 states have backed 250 bills with restrict*ive provi*sions. The Big Lie has also led to the replacement of nonpartisan election boards with partisans, changing systems in place for decades.

“It is now impossible to ignore the damage to democracy’s foundations and reputation,” Repucci and Slipowitz wrote in February.

But now, Putin’s war on Ukraine has clarified the contest between democracy and authoritarianism even as the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol is uncovering just how close we came to our own authoritarian coup.

This confluence is uncomfortable for a number of Republicans, who see Putin’s declared support for traditional values and the implicit white supremacy in that support as part of a global conservative movement they like. Since the 1980s, U.S. evangelicals have embraced Russian Orthodox leaders concerned with the falling birthrate of white people. Since at least 2013, when Putin formally began an attack on LGBTQ rights, sparking outrage in liberal democracies, that embrace has become more widespread. With that attack, Putin claimed he was putting Russia at the forefront of conservative opposition to “genderless and fruitless so-called tolerance” which he said “equals good and evil,” goals right-wing Americans applauded.

As Putin has come to represent to them an attack on the secular social norms and civil rights embraced by democracies, Republicans have increasingly openly admired his declared stand for “traditional values.” In 2014, shortly after the Ukrainians rose up and ousted Russian-allied president Viktor Yanukovych, who had been installed with the help of American political operative Paul Manafort, Republicans began to back Putin over then-president Barack Obama. Evangelical leader Franklin Graham praised Putin’s attack on gay rights for protecting children from “the damaging effects of any gay and lesbian agenda,” while Obama and his attorney general “have turned their backs on God and His standards, and many in the Congress are following the administration’s lead. This is shameful.”

Trump’s pressure to shift U.S. foreign policy away from our traditional democratic allies and toward Russia was almost certainly a reflection of the financial benefits of dealing with oligarchs and illicit money, but others undoubtedly were willing to follow because they believed they were defending “traditional values” and children, especially as stories of pedophilia rings flooded the internet.

But now, Putin’s vicious attack on Ukraine has stripped away the unspoken link between “traditional values” and authoritarianism.

Some right-wing leaders nonetheless cannot quit him: Fox News personality Tucker Carlson’s monologues are so supportive of Putin they are being replayed on Russian state television, Representative Madison Cawthorn (R-NC) has called Zelensky a thug and says democratic Ukraine is “incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies,” and Representatives Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) and Paul Gosar (R-AZ) were part of a conference in which white nationalists cheered on Putin’s attack on Ukraine and chanted his name.

But others recognize that they have been caught on the wrong side of history. According to an Economist/YouGov poll, Americans believe by a margin of 70 to 11 that Putin is committing war crimes. At the same time, the findings of the January 6 committee reveal that the pro-Putin wing of the Republican Party appears to have been willing to overturn our own liberal democracy so long as it could get what it wanted.

A tape today revealed that Cawthorn called into a right-wing talk show on January 6th and said he had brought “multiple weapons” with him that day, suggesting he had known what was planned. Also today, Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, appeared to be trying to get ahead of a story about her participation in the events of January 6 when she told her story to the right-wing Free Beacon. It reported: “She did not help organize the White House rally that preceded the riot at the Capitol. She did attend the rally, but got cold and left early. And most importantly, in her view, her involvement with the event has no bearing on the work of her husband, Supreme Court justice Clarence Thomas.”

How will all this play out? Trump’s attorney general William Barr is currently trying to sell his new book on a tour trying to whitewash his own participation in the Big Lie, but while he blamed Trump for trying to overthrow our democracy, he nonetheless suggested he would vote for him if he were the Republican nominee in 2024, “because I believe that the greatest threat to the country is the progressive agenda being pushed by the Democratic Party.”

—

Notes:

Twitter avatar for @WarintheFuture
Major General (just retired!) Mick Ryan
@WarintheFuture
5/25 It is also a strategic risk. Russia has deployed a large proportion of its ground combat power on a single mission that it hoped would be over quickly. This was not a calculated risk by the Russians; it was a gamble. There is a big difference between the two in military ops.
March 14th 2022

89 Retweets805 Likes
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-campaign-steal-presidency-timeline.html

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/voting-laws-roundup-december-2021

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/03/14/georgia-elections-fraud-purge/

https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/31422-0

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2013/06/30/vladimir-putin-signs-anti-gay-bill-into-la/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/12/vladimir-putin-defends-russia-anti-gay-conservatism

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/franklin-graham-putin-is-better-on-gay-issues-than-obama/2014/03/14/4997c75e-abb3-11e3-b8ca-197ef3568958_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0lP1ZxCjhAk7yY5 5GSNyw-jI1TWvlloqzSzQjR1w20x94_Qt4JlKpRy8Q

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/10/americans-reconsider-zelensky-biden-and-putin-war-

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/03/tucker-carlson-madison-cawthorn-republicans-ukraine.html

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ukraine-war-becomes-cudgel-republican-partys-internal-conflict-2022-03-13/

Twitter avatar for @KatiePhang
Katie S. Phang
@KatiePhang
Hmm...how did Madison Cawthorn know that there would be the need for weapons on January 6?
PatriotTakes 🇺🇸 @patriottakes

Unearthed: Madison Cawthorn called into the Charlie Kirk show during the January 6th attack and said he used his wheelchair to transport “multiple weapons” ahead of the Capitol riot and armed those around him. https://t.co/AoQDaqSDjs
March 14th 2022

2,014 Retweets7,534 Likes
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/14/ginni-thomas-jan-6-rally-capitol-attack/

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/william-barr-book-voting-trump-2024-1317548/

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2022/global-expansion-authoritarian-rule

[Chuck Naill]

I do agree that William Barr is trying to white wash his reputation. When Trump won in 2016 David Brooks remarked that the stain of Trump would be with us a long time. Fortunately, Barr's going to have those skid marks on him for the rest of his days. And let that be a lesson to anyone who decides to support or be a part of such people a Trump and Putin.

[TSherbs]

We'll see how it turns out in November. Incumbents have a great advantage:

Yahoo News: House Republicans who challenged Biden's win are losing lots of corporate cash.

https://news.yahoo.com/house-republicans-challenged-bidens-win-100508402.html

[Chuck Naill]

Let me make a recommendation:
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/on-tyranny-timothy-snyder/1125454355

[TSherbs]

Interesting plea ploy:

POLITICO: Judge takes unusual guilty plea from Capitol riot suspect.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/17/judge-takes-guilty-plea-capitol-riot-suspect-00018309

[TSherbs]

Another conviction:

Yahoo News: 'Cowboys for Trump' founder guilty of breaching U.S. Capitol in win for prosecutors.

https://news.yahoo.com/cowboys-trump-founder-guilty-role-160605052.html

[TSherbs]

This rat ran to Belarus to escape being charged:

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-capitol-siege-immigration-biden-riots-d8aa6f0963921500fe2ca68ae8ebd8b1

[TSherbs]

Amping up the pressure: Jan 6 committee scheduling contempt hearings for uncooperative witnesses under subpoena.

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-donald-trump-dan-scavino-peter-navarro-congress-b5c9085920141bc373ea567c1484377a

[Chip]

They should do the Christian thing: burn them at the stake.

https://i.imgur.com/rTBIedp.jpg

[Chuck Naill]

Poor Ginni Thomas got caught.

[TSherbs]

It seems strange to me that Judge Thomas did not recuse himself from the case on turning over these documents to the Committee. Maybe he didn't know? Maybe because you have to explain the conflict of interest and he did not want to implicate his wife? I don't know. Maybe other reasons.

[Chuck Naill]

It seems strange to me that Judge Thomas did not recuse himself from the case on turning over these documents to the Committee. Maybe he didn't know? Maybe because you have to explain the conflict of interest and he did not want to implicate his wife? I don't know. Maybe other reasons.

I read a quote by him that says he and his wife agree on the same things. He'll probably react as he and Kavenaugh did at their confirmation hearings.

[TSherbs]

Here is the WaPo editorial position:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/25/ginni-thomas-now-problem-supreme-court/

[TSherbs]

nother rioter pleads guilty: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/man-who-waved-confederate-flag-during-jan-6-attack-pleads-guilty?fbclid=IwAR1R8oCNuNS3_6ihrrkOfVoRAnI6j34QTT lLlc3P7A09nU4DisbfbAI1kFg

[Chuck Naill]

Ginni has been outed

[TSherbs]

Another wacko sentenced. This guy had truly gone rogue:

The Hill: Man with Molotov cocktails, guns near Capitol on Jan. 6 sentenced to nearly 4 years.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3256288-man-with-molotov-cocktails-guns-near-capitol-on-jan-6-sentenced-nearly-4-years/

[Chuck Naill]

Some group or person radicalized these people. I doubt they thought the Constitution was being threatened except they were influenced. As Snyder talks about in his history of Germany, ordinary people shot people voluntarily without being asked by Hitler. Once an autocrat notices these voluntary efforts by ordinary citizens, they know they have much more power.

[TSherbs]

Yeah, and Trump was one of the influencers. There were many. Including some Congress people. Including some other Trump hirees. Including the leaders of Oath keepers and other groups. Including the wacko loudmouths of internet echo chambers where disgruntled sore losers would find solace in the bogeyman of conspiracy theories.

It's like low grade religion.

[Chuck Naill]

One of the best come backs this week after someone said they wanted their country back was the reminder that this country used to belong to people who were here first. Ironically, the same people who came to the new continent to escape being ruled by arbitrary rulers, did the same to native and Africans.

Yes, Trump was one, but I've always thought Bannon and others were whispering in his ear.

[724Seney]

The above two posts (#178 & 179) come to you courtesy of two of the most prolific "wacko loudmouths of internet echo chambers."
Won't it be fun to pull up these moronic musings on Wednesday November 8, 2022....the day after the mid-term elections. It will be so interesting to see where these "disgruntled sore losers will find solace."
No doubt in the "bogeyman of conspiracy theories."
You're going down guys.....

[TSherbs]

One of the best come backs this week after someone said they wanted their country back was the reminder that this country used to belong to people who were here first. Ironically, the same people who came to the new continent to escape being ruled by arbitrary rulers, did the same to native and Africans.

Yes, Trump was one, but I've always thought Bannon and others were whispering in his ear.

Sure. Even Ginni was trying to be an influencer through Meadows. The number of random persons (including media talking heads) texting Meadows was really kind of odd. The feedback loop between Trump and Fox media is startling to see when all the details are presented.

[TSherbs]

CNN: Trump's presidential diarist tells Jan. 6 committee White House officials provided less detail about his activities days before riot.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/01/politics/white-house-diarist-january-6-committee-interview/index.html

[724Seney]

CNN: Trump's presidential diarist tells Jan. 6 committee White House officials provided less detail about his activities days before riot.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/01/politics/white-house-diarist-january-6-committee-interview/index.html

:lazy2:

[Chuck Naill]

When you are ruled by autocrats and someone else’s moral judgments, you won’t be smiling.

There is a satisfaction, albeit it sad, when you learned from history and knew when not to support tyranny.

The name callers also have a history. They became the Brown and Black shirts. They shot people whose bodies fell into pits .

[TSherbs]

Another jail sentence for Jan 6, this time closer to my home:

The Hill: Capitol rioter who has said he’s running for a House seat gets 90 days in jail.

https://thehill.com/news/3259005-capitol-rioter-who-has-said-hes-running-for-a-house-seat-gets-90-days-in-jail/

[TSherbs]

Acquittal for this guy:

POLITICO: Judge issues first outright acquittal of Jan. 6 riot defendant.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/06/judge-issues-first-outright-acquittal-of-jan-6-riot-defendant-00023493

[Chuck Naill]

I think there is a good reason to consider that those thinking they were saving their country by storming the capital were actually playing right into the autocratic playbook. Risking life and limb for something that did not exist, a stolen election, because their chosen one told them to. In Snyder's book he talks about when volunteers do the leaders bidding, even when not asked.

[Chuck Naill]

Acquittal for this guy:

POLITICO: Judge issues first outright acquittal of Jan. 6 riot defendant.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/06/judge-issues-first-outright-acquittal-of-jan-6-riot-defendant-00023493

Sadly, he found the police were cooperating with the insurrection.

[TSherbs]

Acquittal for this guy:

POLITICO: Judge issues first outright acquittal of Jan. 6 riot defendant.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/06/judge-issues-first-outright-acquittal-of-jan-6-riot-defendant-00023493

Sadly, he found the police were cooperating with the insurrection.

I wonder if those officers were identified.

[TSherbs]

Another gets jail time....
Business Insider: Capitol rioter who hinted she 'trashed' Pelosi's office gets jail time.
https://www.businessinsider.com/capitol-rioter-hinted-she-trashed-pelosis-office-gets-jail-time-2022-4

[kazoolaw]

Two acquittals, two mistrials for alleged Whitmer kidnappers.
https://www.woodtv.com/news/michigan/whitmer-kidnapping-plot-federal-trial-day-20-april-8-2022/https://www.woodtv.com/news/michigan/whitmer-kidnapping-plot-federal-trial-day-20-april-8-2022/

[TSherbs]

So, it turns out that Donald Trump, Jr., was also texting Meadows, telling him that they had the levers of "control" to keep his father in office and begin his second term.

By the way, that text was sent November 5, 2020, even before the votes were done being counted.

Seems a bit quick on the trigger of authoritarianism, no? 😉

[Chuck Naill]

So, it turns out that Donald Trump, Jr., was also texting Meadows, telling him that they had the levers of "control" to keep his father in office and begin his second term.

By the way, that text was sent November 5, 2020, even before the votes were done being counted.

Seems a bit quick on the trigger of authoritarianism, no? 😉

Mary Trump, if I remember, didn't speak well of him. Even so, I am continually surprised they thought they could just will a win. Can you imagine the horror of another four years? Can you imagine having the opportunity to hold another election if he wins again?

We have a picture of that world by studying other autocratic nations. The only news would be Fox. Any decent would result in prison. Some groups, would be marginalized. The Evangelicals would participate thinking they were working for God. Hopefully, we, as a nation, will come to our senses and embrace everyone as Americans regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, wealth, or academic status. This culture war can be our destruction.

The expression comes to mind, "what were you thinking" to which the reply would be, "I wasn't".

"lso today, we learned that Donald Trump, Jr., texted Trump’s White House chief of staff Mark Meadows on November 5, 2020, two days after the presidential election and two days before the media would call the election for President Elect Joe Biden: "We have operational control Total leverage…. Moral High Ground POTUS must start 2nd term now.”

The text, in the possession of the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol and reviewed by CNN reporters Ryan Nobles, Zachary Cohen, and Annie Grayer, suggested that even before the election was called for Biden, Trump’s people knew he would lose. Trump, Jr., offered a number of different ways in which Trump could nonetheless steal the election, most of which later materialized. Trump, Jr. apparently could not see why this would be a problem, since, "we have operational control.” “It's very simple," he texted: “We have multiple paths[.] We control them all.”

Heather Cox Richardson abstract.

[Chuck Naill]

From Heather Cox Richardson:
"
April 8, 2022
Heather Cox Richardson
Apr 9

Comment
Share
“I have dedicated my career to public service because I love this country and our Constitution and the rights that make us free," Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson said today at a White House ceremony celebrating her confirmation to the Supreme Court.

Also today, we learned that Donald Trump, Jr., texted Trump’s White House chief of staff Mark Meadows on November 5, 2020, two days after the presidential election and two days before the media would call the election for President Elect Joe Biden: "We have operational control Total leverage…. Moral High Ground POTUS must start 2nd term now.”

The text, in the possession of the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol and reviewed by CNN reporters Ryan Nobles, Zachary Cohen, and Annie Grayer, suggested that even before the election was called for Biden, Trump’s people knew he would lose. Trump, Jr., offered a number of different ways in which Trump could nonetheless steal the election, most of which later materialized. Trump, Jr. apparently could not see why this would be a problem, since, "we have operational control.” “It's very simple," he texted: “We have multiple paths[.] We control them all.”

At least some of Trump’s inner circle were clearly conspiring to overturn our democracy. Just who was involved remains unclear to the public, although the January 6 Committee has more information than we do, not least because both Ivanka Trump, the former president’s daughter, and Jared Kushner, her husband, both of whom acted as White House advisors, testified before the committee recently. Trump spoke with the committee virtually on Tuesday, for 8 hours. Kushner testified for several hours on March 31.

Their cooperation stands in stark contrast to the refusal of the rest of Trump’s senior advisors to respond to subpoenas. But on April 6, the January 6 committee received the 101 emails that Trump advisor John Eastman, the author of the Eastman memo laying out an illegal plan for Vice President Mike Pence to throw the election to Trump, had refused to hand over but that a federal judge, David Carter, reviewed and ordered released. In his decision, Carter wrote that it is “more likely than not that President Trump corruptly attempted to obstruct the Joint Session of Congress on January 6, 2021.”

The committee today secured cooperation from an important witness to the insurrection. Charles Donohoe, the leader of a chapter of the extremist Proud Boys in North Carolina, pleaded guilty this morning to conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding and to assaulting police officers. He has agreed to testify against his co-defendants.

Hugo Lowell at The Guardian reports today that the January 6 committee is focusing on cooperation between the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers in a plan to stop the certification of Biden’s victory using physical force. The committee has reviewed video from Nick Quested, a documentary filmmaker who filmed a meeting between the two groups in a parking garage on January 5. It has focused even more closely, though, on 17 minutes filmed at the attack itself, along with communications between the Proud Boys and rally organizers including Ali Alexander and right-wing media personality Alex Jones.

Quested testified before the January 6 committee on Tuesday. “They’ve done an incredible amount of hard work and have an exceptional grasp,” Quested told Politico’s Kyle Cheney. He called the events of January 6 a “constitutional attack” that was “very serious.”

The committee is digging into how organizers used social media to spread disinformation and plan the January 6 insurrection. Cristiano Lima and Aaron Schaffer of the Washington Post reported yesterday that the committee has been talking to experts on social media, disinformation, and online extremism, and has recently hired a new analyst to pull things together. Committee members are also looking into the ways in which key influencers used social media to push their plans.

Right-wing activist Ali Alexander also agreed today to comply with a grand jury subpoena from the Department of Justice, seeking information about the organization of the events surrounding January 6. This indicates that the Justice Department is looking broadly at people close to Trump and that prosecutors believe those people might have committed crimes. In a statement made through a lawyer, Alexander said: “I did nothing wrong, and I am not in possession of evidence that anyone else had plans to commit unlawful acts.”

But in videos posted online and now deleted, Alexander boasted about his work planning the events of January 6. He claimed that he worked with Representatives Mo Brooks (R-AL), Paul Gosar (R-AZ), and Andy Biggs (R-AZ) to put “maximum pressure on Congress while they were voting…so that who we couldn’t lobby, we could change the hearts and the minds of Republicans who were in that body, hearing our loud roar from outside.”

And yet, for all the new information about the January 6 attack on our democracy, Republican lawmakers are focusing elsewhere. Today, in an unprecedented attack by a senator on a newly confirmed Supreme Court justice, Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) released a video attacking Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. Although Graham voted to confirm Jackson to a Senate-confirmed judgeship just last year, yesterday he voted against her elevation to the Supreme Court. Today he said: “I voted no to Judge Jackson, and now I understand why the radical left wanted her so badly. She’s a judicial activist, she gets the outcome she wants no matter how the law’s written, when it comes to crime, her record is very, very dangerous.”

[TSherbs]

Despite Cheney's denial, they're likely has been discussion and disagreement on how to proceed. Why else have a committee, after all? I don't expect nine adults in a room to agree on something like this, at this point.

Cheney denies disagreement reported by the NYT:

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/10/cheney-evidence-trump-criminal-referral-00024290

[Chuck Naill]

Surely, even a casual observer would conclude Trump caused the January 6, 2020 event. Just reading the transcript of his speech points directly to his instigations. His previous events also is evidence to what he was attempting to do. Surely there can be no serious confusion.

[TSherbs]

Surely, even a casual observer would conclude Trump caused the January 6, 2020 event. Just reading the transcript of his speech points directly to his instigations. His previous events also is evidence to what he was attempting to do. Surely there can be no serious confusion.

I think that the actual language of the criminal statute that he may have violated would matter a lot. As would a working knowledge of the past legal standards that conviction has required. I don't know either of those.

[Chuck Naill]

That he encouraged is obvious. His statements about Pence demonstrate intent. A good prosecutor has a case laid out for the picking .

[TSherbs]

Chuck, you'll likely agree with the premise of this defendant's argument:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ohio-man-on-trial-for-involvement-in-jan-6-insurrection-blames-trump

[Chuck Naill]

Chuck, you'll likely agree with the premise of this defendant's argument:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ohio-man-on-trial-for-involvement-in-jan-6-insurrection-blames-trump

Even a casual observer would have to come to the conclusion that Trump caused the riot. It would be beyond a reasonable doubt.

I would be satisfied if Trump were barred from ever allowed to be in public office for the rest of this life. My concern is that his family will simply take over what's left of the Republican party. Kushner's billons from Saudi Arabia is a prime example of oligarchy and plutocratic actions.

Even for those that supported Trump, a smidgeon of honest concern would be nice to see.

[Chuck Naill]

Did the rest of you get the news that Trump stages fund raisers where a winner gets to have supper with him, yet nobody won. In classic Trumpian fashion, they blamed it on the winner.

[Chuck Naill]

For many of the same reasons Trump bothers me, Elon Musk is reminder that some people, through hook and crook, can become too much of a problem. Nothing wrong with being smart, speaking of Musk, but couple that with being self serving, thinking to highly of yourself, and willing to do anything to win, can result in harm.

[TSherbs]

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene testifies Friday, under oath, before a judge, about her role in the January 6, 2020, attack on the Capitol building. First member of Congress to have to do so.

About time. And about four others to go....

[Chuck Naill]

Any opinion on how her testimony will pan out?

[TSherbs]

No idea. We'll see.

[TSherbs]

Well, now we know: a rope-a-dope of "I-don't-remember"s after she was caught in a lie.

[TSherbs]

McCarthy is a big liar, too.

[Chuck Naill]

"We admire Zelensky because he reminds us of how rare these traits have become among our own politicians. Zelensky was an actor who used his celebrity to become a statesman. Western politics is overrun by people who playact as statesmen so that they may ultimately become celebrities. "
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/19/opinion/why-we-admire-zelensky.html

[Chuck Naill]

DeSantis’ war with Disney and restructuring voting districts might be politically retribution.

[Chip]

DeSantis’ war with Disney and restructuring voting districts might be political retribution.

Might be? De Santis is a vicious thug. But there's no way he can win this round.

https://i.imgur.com/MIxf4rW.jpg

[Chuck Naill]

DeSantis’ war with Disney and restructuring voting districts might be political retribution.

Might be? De Santis is a vicious thug. But there's no way he can win this round.

https://i.imgur.com/MIxf4rW.jpg

👍👍 you have a good point

[dneal]

69283

[Chuck Naill]

This point is for those folks to pay taxes.

[dneal]

Cool. Now they will. No more special exemptions for woke corporations that want first-graders to learn about sexual orientation.

[Chuck Naill]

First graders will learn it regardless. People don't become homosexuals because someone said "gay".

If we could convince the non-wokes to wake up to history, we'd be able to move along and solve some problems.

What concerns me more is that a minority (Republicans) wants to rule and tell others what they can read and think.

[dneal]

What concerns me more is that a minority (Republicans) wants to rule and tell others what they can read and think.

Correct, except for who the culprit is.

[Chuck Naill]

Who do you think the culprit is?

[Chuck Naill]

Like Putin, Republicans are busy saying the liberal left are out to destroy democracy while they themselves are the ones doing it in plain site.

The problem is an uninformed base who continue to vote for these insurrectionists. At least some of those standing trial now see they were used. Some have said they thought Trump told them to. Trump should have been convicted and barred from every holding public office again, but the Republicans lacked a moral sense.

Some like you probably know better, but it suits your agenda to appear you care about children and have fashionably become against gays and trans people. Putin is doing the same .

[Chuck Naill]

Also, like Putin, in the US there is a mythical past that children have been taught.

So, which is worse, saying “gay” or lying about the Alamo?

[Chuck Naill]

“The new word “рашизм” is a useful conceptualization of Putin’s worldview. Far more than Western analysts, Ukrainians have noticed the Russian tilt toward fascism in the last decade. Undistracted by Putin’s operational deployment of genocide talk, they have seen fascist practices in Russia: the cults of the leader and of the dead, the corporatist state, the mythical past, the censorship, the conspiracy theories, the centralized propaganda and now the war of destruction. Even as we rightly debate how applicable the term is to Western figures and parties, we have tended to overlook the central example of fascism’s revival, which is the Putin regime in the Russian Federation.”

Timothy Snyder

[TSherbs]

Here's the Lincoln Project on McCarthy:
https://youtu.be/O_Ge5TjUq80

[TSherbs]

The text exchanges between Meadows and Hannity are just gross. First, that Meadows would grant personal access to an evening television entertainer. Second, that Hannity would so openly kiss his ass and state his willingness to do the White House's bidding.

Just more evidence of no professional standards in Trump's circle and within Hannity's behavior.

[Chuck Naill]

Thomas L Friedman on McCarthy
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/26/opinion/kevin-mccarthy-putin-ukraine-war.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEI PuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJDmwci OMNAo6B_EGKZqd9Zt122j-QTcVdMK5qXOFuz-kaIk93Qgiur96bkY5DIzkwrcj7eFIK6K_3fOJy9y72PC7-If1jxba7slWMYWXgUaHUhmkkdgtivZdkdFq1iXQCwbPBQOZ03d Iu2vl2B8xqVHxXMnnxyvrrCh94PNuNbRvOuEJhC6wCB2alzZPL 4KkAcQ5SFVvAUHh6hG4849pWM9oWV73te19iIIGtxOVMVRE7ad uhFJYzRIPLlrl1srCrqReEycu-xv9eB7zU8cD-gfmiUimp6NlKN73a&smid=url-share

[Chuck Naill]

Do the Republicans have a problem...Madsion Cawthorne?

[TSherbs]

The stuff coming out from the texts and the McCarthy recordings is just wild. What a shit-show the GOP has turned into. They deserve it, too. These wack fucks are the native sons (and daughters) of the deal with the racialist/nationalist devil that the party made in the 60s and early 70s in order to try to battle the appeal of the liberal progressivism becoming more popular.

[Chuck Naill]

The minority ruling the majority. Nothing new. The arrogance of a DeSantis starting a war with the /or one of Florida's largest employer. And, they actually think the country is going to the dogs. The dogs are already here. What is so bad about people living their lives as they choose. I mean, it is not like the Republicans actually stand for anything, but they have an uninformed electorate that needs to be petted.

[TSherbs]

Like I said, gross:

CNN: CNN Exclusive: New text messages reveal Fox's Hannity advising Trump White House and seeking direction.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/29/politics/hannity-text-messages-meadows-trump-white-house/index.html

[Chuck Naill]

Once the Trump family takes over the US, Hannity will say, “I forgot”!

[Chip]

Do the Republicans have a problem...Madison Cawthorn?

One of many. He just got popped a second time trying to smuggle a loaded pistol onto an airliner.

Not to mention his wild tales of dope-fueled orgies among top Republicans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/26/us/politics/madison-cawthorn-gun-airport.html

[Chuck Naill]

White grievance and bashing is the Republican strategy. Like him or not, but Biden has shown how to use institutions. Trump called it the swamp, but the swamp is a thriving place that gets things done even in biological terms.

"On the other hand, swamps can (and do) play a beneficial ecological role in the overall functions of the natural environment and provide a variety of resources that many species depend on. Swamps and other wetlands have shown to be a natural form of flood management and defense against flooding. In such circumstances where flooding does occur, swamps absorb and use the excess water within the wetland, preventing it from traveling and flooding surrounding areas.[2] Dense vegetation within the swamp also provides soil stability to the land, holding soils and sediment in place whilst preventing erosion and land loss. Swamps are an abundant and valuable source of fresh water and oxygen for all life, and they are often breeding grounds for a wide variety of species. Floodplain swamps are an important resource in the production and distribution of fish.[10] Two thirds of global fish and shellfish are commercially harvested and dependent on wetlands.[2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swamp#Values_and_ecosystem_services

It is good to see the bipartisan support for Ukraine. Americans have a chance here to see in plain sight what can occur when people work together, unlike Trump's disfunction and autocratic manner.

[Chip]

Here's the wonder boy on a cruise. Cruising.

https://i.imgur.com/pfbOfLs.jpg

Guess he'll never make the math texts in Florida. . .

[TSherbs]

Here's the wonder boy on a cruise. Cruising.

https://i.imgur.com/pfbOfLs.jpg

Guess he'll never make the math texts in Florida. . .

Ha!

[Chuck Naill]

Had to chuckle.....LOL!!

[Pendragon]

White grievance and bashing is the Republican strategy. Like him or not, but Biden has shown how to use institutions. Trump called it the swamp, but the swamp is a thriving place that gets things done even in biological terms.
Yes, the swamp facilitates the spread of malaria and yellow fever.


It is good to see the bipartisan support for Ukraine. Americans have a chance here to see in plain sight what can occur when people work together, unlike Trump's disfunction and autocratic manner.
If more people had the common sense to vote for Mitt Romney in 2012, we likely would not be having Russian issue in Ukraine today. So Russia turned out to be an existential threat after all...

[Chuck Naill]

Yes, the swamp facilitates the spread of malaria and yellow fever.


It is good to see the bipartisan support for Ukraine. Americans have a chance here to see in plain sight what can occur when people work together, unlike Trump's disfunction and autocratic manner.
If more people had the common sense to vote for Mitt Romney in 2012, we likely would not be having Russian issue in Ukraine today. So Russia turned out to be an existential threat after all...

Interesting regarding Mr. Romney. Evangelicals didn't like/support him because of his religion. I did vote for him and respect his willingness to not go along to get along with Trump.

[TSherbs]

Looking worse for those members of the GOP (and for Trump) pushing so hard on the Georgia SoS to "find more votes":
CNN: Georgia official frantically texted Mark Meadows as Trump badgered secretary of state to 'find' votes.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/02/politics/georgia-grand-jury-meadows-texts/index.html

[Chuck Naill]

If the NY suit didn’t work out, nothing will happen to him in GA.

[TSherbs]

Another one bites the dust:
#4

ABC News: Jury finds ex-NYPD cop guilty of assaulting officer during Jan. 6 attack.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/jury-finds-nypd-cop-guilty-assaulting-officer-jan/story?id=84368243

[Chip]

He lied, saying that the Capitol officer attacked him and he was just defending himself.

But they had video of him spewing curses and charging with the pole upraised.

He deserves to do hard time.

[TSherbs]

Lying traitor scum, hiding behind deluded pseudo-patriotism.

[Chuck Naill]

Father, forgive them for they no not what they do.

[Chip]

Most of those mean crackers knew exactly what they were doing: hoping to overthrow the government to keep Trump in the White House.

I can't forgive them, let alone the Liar-in-Chief. They should all be locked up.

[TSherbs]

A couple more jail sentences:

NBC News: Jan. 6 rioters who stormed Capitol in gladiator, caveman costumes sentenced to prison.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/jan-6-rioters-stormed-capitol-gladiator-caveman-costumes-sentenced-pri-rcna27727

[Chuck Naill]

I am reading the linked article and particularily the phrase, "the will of the people". Do Republicans and the courts care about the will of the people or do they really think they know whats best, being white men and all?

[TSherbs]

I am reading the linked article and particularily the phrase, "the will of the people". Do Republicans and the courts care about the will of the people or do they really think they know whats best, being white men and all?

The problem with these men (and some women) is that they held feverishly to the delusion that they were right and that they were doing the "will of the people." It's a form of fervent self-righteousness that loses touch with reality and the rule of law. In this case, it also lost touch with the rule of democracy and the ethics by which it functions. Ironically, the "will of the people" was served in November 2020 and Joe Biden was lawfully and honestly elected President of the United States of America. He won both the popular vote and the tally of the Electoral College, certified through the same process (although these folks tried to contravene this process) that elections have gone through for decades and decades.

The current President (and loser of that election) and several of his key followers and thousands of others on the internet irresponsibly and reprehensibly began a vortex of self-refering conspiracy theories of fraud (all of which have never come true) and delusional fantasies to mollify their anger and feelings of loss and disappointment. And the then-President was the worst deluded baby loser of them all.

[Chuck Naill]

I am reading the linked article and particularily the phrase, "the will of the people". Do Republicans and the courts care about the will of the people or do they really think they know whats best, being white men and all?

The problem with these men (and some women) is that they held feverishly to the delusion that they were right and that they were doing the "will of the people." It's a form of fervent self-righteousness that loses touch with reality and the rule of law. In this case, it also lost touch with the rule of democracy and the ethics by which it functions. Ironically, the "will of the people" was served in November 2020 and Joe Biden was lawfully and honestly elected President of the United States of America. He won both the popular vote and the tally of the Electoral College, certified through the same process (although these folks tried to contravene this process) that elections have gone through for decades and decades.

The current President (and loser of that election) and several of his key followers and thousands of others on the internet irresponsibly and reprehensibly began a vortex of self-refering conspiracy theories of fraud (all of which have never come true) and delusional fantasies to mollify their anger and feelings of loss and disappointment. And the then-President was the worst deluded baby loser of them all.

Or worse, that they were doing the will of God.

[TSherbs]

Or worse, that they were doing the will of God.

Yes, some thought this too.

[Chuck Naill]

“Today, in the wake of the Buffalo shooting, Miles Taylor—a member of Trump’s administration who warned anonymously of how dangerous Trump was—announced he was leaving the Republican Party and called on others to do the same. “In the wake of the mass shooting in Buffalo on Saturday,” he wrote, “it’s become glaringly obvious that my party no longer represents conservative values but in fact poses a threat to them—and to America.””
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/may-17-2022?utm_source=email&s=r

[Chuck Naill]

Poor Ginni got found out.

[Chuck Naill]

Republicans are a corrupted bunch