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Chuck Naill
January 12th, 2022, 07:13 AM
Just listened to an interview. He mentions the states he lost and suggested there were more votes and voters. Of course this is not true, but he's still pushing it. I don't think he really believe he won.

Thoughts?

TSherbs
January 12th, 2022, 10:09 AM
I have no idea. Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.

Chuck Naill
January 12th, 2022, 10:15 AM
I figure he just rallies the base and since you noted Republicans hadn’t won the popular vote since 2004, I guess he’s after the minority.

kazoolaw
January 12th, 2022, 01:10 PM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

Chuck Naill
January 12th, 2022, 03:43 PM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

same as
dAR

TSherbs
January 12th, 2022, 03:51 PM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

What's this mean?

TSherbs
January 12th, 2022, 03:52 PM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

same as
dAR
What weird code are you guys talking in?

Chuck Naill
January 12th, 2022, 04:05 PM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

same as
dAR
What weird code are you guys talking in?

We know Kaz is a troll. I just play along....LOL!!

kazoolaw
January 13th, 2022, 11:33 AM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

same as
dAR
What weird code are you guys talking in?

HRC=Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Hip political jive.
Your turn Chuck, you got me with dAR.

TSherbs
January 13th, 2022, 01:26 PM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

same as
dAR
What weird code are you guys talking in?

HRC=Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Hip political jive.
Your turn Chuck, you got me with dAR.


Yes, but what does "do Hilary Rodham Clinton" mean? Could you just be specific and clear, please? Again, I find several of your comments either ironic in tone or simply imprecise to avoid the commitment of a clear statement. You ask questions of others far more often than you make claims yourself. Which is fine, you can post what you want. But I'm not interested in playing some sort of vague or suggestive game.

What is it that you want to state?

kazoolaw
January 13th, 2022, 01:35 PM
TS-
Didn't mean to make you frustrated.
"Now do" ____ is a shorthand way of saying apply the same analysis you used before to this new subject.
Take your comment about Trump, that whether or not he believes he lost the election disqualifies him from office, and apply it to Hillary Rodham Clinton and her tearful reading of her acceptance speech, not believing that she could have/should have lost the election but for that pesky Electoral College, and try and convince people that she's a worthy candidate for president.
Or, same crap runs both ways.

kazoolaw
January 13th, 2022, 01:37 PM
Does the fact that you didn't ask about "dAR" mean you know what that means and, if you do, could you please explain it to me?

Chuck Naill
January 13th, 2022, 01:49 PM
Does the fact that you didn't ask about "dAR" mean you know what that means and, if you do, could you please explain it to me?

I've already explained, "We know Kaz is a troll. I just play along....LOL!!"

TSherbs
January 13th, 2022, 01:53 PM
Does the fact that you didn't ask about "dAR" mean you know what that means and, if you do, could you please explain it to me?

For fuck sake, Kazoo

TSherbs
January 13th, 2022, 02:08 PM
TS-
Didn't mean to make you frustrated.
"Now do" ____ is a shorthand way of saying apply the same analysis you used before to this new subject.
Take your comment about Trump, that whether or not he believes he lost the election disqualifies him from office, and apply it to Hillary Rodham Clinton and her tearful reading of her acceptance speech, not believing that she could have/should have lost the election but for that pesky Electoral College, and try and convince people that she's a worthy candidate for president.
Or, same crap runs both ways.

Are you typing this with a straight face? Seriously, are you? That's your level of analysis for DQ of Clinton? That she was sad that she lost on election night ....to Trump's orchestrated response over months to coerce, cajole, and litigate the states and then pressure Congress and then the VP into refusing the certified results of the outcome? And to continue to vilify and threaten those who won't toe his fraud-line to this day two years later?

I'm flabbergasted, except maybe this is one of your ironic jokes and you just are writing something you don't actually believe.

Chuck Naill
January 13th, 2022, 02:22 PM
DAR-Daily Afternoon Randomness., Data at Rest, Daughters of the American Revolution

Chose the correct meaning for the context of the post.

kazoolaw
January 13th, 2022, 03:13 PM
DAR-Daily Afternoon Randomness., Data at Rest, Daughters of the American Revolution

Chose the correct meaning for the context of the post.

That's easy: D-None of the above.
Thanks for playing.

kazoolaw
January 13th, 2022, 03:17 PM
Does the fact that you didn't ask about "dAR" mean you know what that means and, if you do, could you please explain it to me?

For fuck sake, Kazoo

Whatever do you mean? That you found Chuck's post to be ironic, or imprecise? Or just plain undecipherable and that's fine with you because it's Chuck?

kazoolaw
January 13th, 2022, 03:19 PM
[

I'm flabbergasted, except maybe this is one of your ironic jokes and you just are writing something you don't actually believe.

In a word, "Yes", she's unqualified for office.

TSherbs
January 13th, 2022, 05:28 PM
Does the fact that you didn't ask about "dAR" mean you know what that means and, if you do, could you please explain it to me?

For fuck sake, Kazoo

Whatever do you mean? That you found Chuck's post to be ironic, or imprecise? Or just plain undecipherable and that's fine with you because it's Chuck?
Now you're just being purposefully obtuse.

Chuck did not respond to me, Chuck didn't write "DAR" to me. *You* wrote HRC to me, and *you* explained its meaning to me. So I responded about it TO YOU cuz you were the one who wrote about her to me, for fuck sake. This obtuseness on your part is annoying, and Chuck's POV, clearly, is that it is intentional, a ruse. I'm beginning to think so, too. I'd appreciate not being trolled by you.

One difference with Chuck is that when I say that I am not interested in argument or debate, he backs off and doesn't pull (with me) any kind of rope-a-dope act. Chuck doesn't ask questions of others on topics that he is not willing to discuss himself. I had Chuck on ignore for months because he was so combative. But he has changed, at least with me, and I believe in the process of growth (for myself too). My responses to him have nothing to do with you, and vice versa.

Between you and him is a silly dance of other bullshit that I wouldn't tolerate if I were either one of you. But you guys seem to get off on it from time to time. Whatever.

I went on the abortion thread to show that for sure I can discuss the topic without anger or rudeness or fighting or arguing or even debating. No rancor from me at all. It's so easy to exchange points of view on a topic if one simply accepts the other person's beliefs without criticism or question. When you wouldn't stop questioning my simple and clear statement it became clear that you weren't merely accepting, and then when you wouldn't state your belief, it became clear that you did not intend to exchange ideas. It turned out that only a couple of us just outright stated what we believed about the issue. So be it. There was not much given back in return, but whatever. All's good.

kazoolaw
January 13th, 2022, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE=TSherbs;351226]

Well, now you're just being silly because you've lost your temper.

You've forgotten/ignored my responses with my thoughts on your 5 points about abortion. Responded to your points, shared thoughts of my own. Then, when I asked questions about your position, you chose to stop. That's fine. I think of a "discussion" as a conversation. A conversation involves give and take, not alternating speeches. "Rope-a-dope?" Not a boxing match, or debate, and sorry you think that it is.

TSherbs
January 13th, 2022, 07:22 PM
[QUOTE=TSherbs;351226]

[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]Well, now you're just being silly because you've lost your temper.



Kazoo, this is right out the trollish handbook, which, when on the topic of trolling Chuck, you said was not a bad thing.

To be annoying, and then call someone "silly" for being annoyed, is precisely trollish behavior.

I'm not angry, I'm just vulgar when I longer feel the other person is acting in good faith.

TSherbs
January 13th, 2022, 07:28 PM
Not a boxing match, or debate, and sorry you think that it is.

I don't. And you know I don't. This is one of those insincere remarks. Case in point. You're not "sorry" for what I might think. Your not even attempting to accurately understand what I think. I'm not angry about it; it just adds to my doubt of your good faith in these discussions when we have been asked not to descend into rancor.

kazoolaw
January 13th, 2022, 10:09 PM
Not a boxing match, or debate, and sorry you think that it is.

I don't. And you know I don't. This is one of those insincere remarks. Case in point. You're not "sorry" for what I might think. Your not even attempting to accurately understand what I think. I'm not angry about it; it just adds to my doubt of your good faith in these discussions when we have been asked not to descend into rancor.

I was referring to the abortion discussion, not this topic. Reread my second paragraph, and my posts in the abortion topic: no rancor in either location. No debating there either. We live in very different worlds if no one is ever follows up on something you say and asks a question about it.

Chuck Naill
January 14th, 2022, 06:14 AM
Does the fact that you didn't ask about "dAR" mean you know what that means and, if you do, could you please explain it to me?

For fuck sake, Kazoo

Whatever do you mean? That you found Chuck's post to be ironic, or imprecise? Or just plain undecipherable and that's fine with you because it's Chuck?

Ted knew what I was doing because I said so in my post.

If I were you, and you are interested in having an exchange, stop the nonsense and say what you mean like when you did when you said " In a word, "Yes", she's unqualified for office". Rather, what you did was try to compare her loss to Trump's which didn't fit because 2.9 more Americans voted for her than Trump, and she lost. He lost the popular vote in both elections. As much as you don't like Clinton, almost 3 million more people pulled the lever for her meaning you are in the minority. There is a lesson there if you are willing to listen unless you think minority rule is better.

Why do you think Trump was trying to get those key states to "find enough votes"? Him, Trump, complaining about the vote is like Tom Brady complaining his team lost the Super Bowl because the referees cheated, and then trying to get the league to overturn the loss.

Who wants something ill gained?

dneal
January 14th, 2022, 07:35 AM
If I were you, and you are interested in having an exchange, stop the nonsense...

Ironic.

Bold2013
January 14th, 2022, 08:05 AM
The only people more obsessed with trump than his MAGA proud boys are leftists. Trump this Trump that.

Let’s talk about how awesome Biden is…

TSherbs
January 14th, 2022, 08:52 AM
Let’s talk about how awesome Biden is…

There are threads already going on this. Or go ahead and start a new one. Some others would join you, no doubt. :noidea:

TSherbs
January 14th, 2022, 08:55 AM
Who wants something ill gained?

Donald Trump does, for sure.

Chuck Naill
January 14th, 2022, 09:40 AM
The only people more obsessed with trump than his MAGA proud boys are leftists. Trump this Trump that.

Let’s talk about how awesome Biden is…

Rather let’s speak of someone who can be touched with our weaknesses.

One doesn’t have to be awesome or even holy to do so. Of course the writer of Hebrews said Jesus was and you’d except some one who was a disciple to want to do the same.

TSherbs
January 15th, 2022, 06:34 AM
Here's more reason that the suggestion of parity between Trump's response to loss and Hilary Clinton's response to loss is so ridiculous:

Yahoo News: Fake electoral documents under new scrutiny

https://news.yahoo.com/fake-electoral-documents-under-new-scrutiny-as-trump-prepares-for-arizona-visit-180154595.html

Chuck Naill
January 15th, 2022, 06:42 AM
So, fake electorial documents were made? This is news to me. Wow, what dishonesty.


https://www.americanoversight.org/fake-electoral-certificates-obtained-by-american-oversight-draw-renewed-scrutiny

TSherbs
January 15th, 2022, 06:46 AM
It's that Bannon strategy of throwing as much shit and disinformation into the fan as possible. Just make shit up and throw it in people's faces. Try to blind them with bullshit. Or at least clog up the media and the political and legal systems with it.

dneal
January 15th, 2022, 07:06 AM
It's that Bannon strategy of throwing as much shit and disinformation into the fan as possible. Just make shit up and throw it in people's faces. Try to blind them with bullshit. Or at least clog up the media and the political and legal systems with it.

Kind of like Adam Schiff and "Russia Collusion"?

Chuck Naill
January 15th, 2022, 07:09 AM
It's that Bannon strategy of throwing as much shit and disinformation into the fan as possible. Just make shit up and throw it in people's faces. Try to blind them with bullshit. Or at least clog up the media and the political and legal systems with it.

Bannon was posted here where he was speaking to a group of young people suggesting their lives were not going to be good. One member here appeared to be unaware of his "shit slinging" and felt what he was saying was true. He has fooled many a folk.

Since it is MLK birthday weekend, his saying that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice is one that I am clinging to regarding these people.

TSherbs
January 15th, 2022, 07:13 AM
It's that Bannon strategy of throwing as much shit and disinformation into the fan as possible. Just make shit up and throw it in people's faces. Try to blind them with bullshit. Or at least clog up the media and the political and legal systems with it.

Bannon was posted here where he was speaking to a group of young people suggesting their lives were not going to be good. One member here appeared to be unaware of his "shit slinging" and felt what he was saying was true. He has fooled many a folk.

Since it is MLK birthday weekend, his saying that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice is one that I am clinging to regarding these people.
Let's hope that there's personal growth for us all.

I consider King's Letter From Birmingham Jail one of the great documents of the 20th century. I teach it and am always humbled by it. It is chastening in its effect.

Chuck Naill
January 15th, 2022, 07:22 AM
It's that Bannon strategy of throwing as much shit and disinformation into the fan as possible. Just make shit up and throw it in people's faces. Try to blind them with bullshit. Or at least clog up the media and the political and legal systems with it.

Bannon was posted here where he was speaking to a group of young people suggesting their lives were not going to be good. One member here appeared to be unaware of his "shit slinging" and felt what he was saying was true. He has fooled many a folk.

Since it is MLK birthday weekend, his saying that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice is one that I am clinging to regarding these people.
Let's hope that there's personal growth for us all.

I consider King's Letter From Birmingham Jail one of the great documents of the 20th century. I teach it and am always humbled by it. It is chastening in its effect.

If I have my history on MLK correct this morning, he was discouraged at the local black pastors who wouldn't help the cause of Civil Rights in those letters.

Thank you for teaching. and teaching these documents. and this history to your students. Whether they realize it or not, you are doing them a life time benefit.

Yes, I am humbled as well. My friend was born in Tuskegee. She had to use the colored toliets, as a child, when going to town in Montgomery. She said they were filthy. I cannot imagine the indignity.

TSherbs
January 15th, 2022, 07:55 AM
King had been criticized in the newspapers by other black ministers who wanted not to rock the boat so much with whites. One of the things that King states in this response (also published in the paper) is that he considered friendly liberal whites (and the blacks seekng their favor) the greater evil because they garnered appeasement due to their friendliness and seeming lack of racist motivations but ultimately just furthered racist oppression by never supporting the changes for real justice and equity that were required. They were the smiling, beguiling traitors to the cause (my words).

TSherbs
January 15th, 2022, 08:25 AM
I also love the parallel between Thoreau (who said to Emerson, according to the tale, who spoke to him through the jail house window, "Why aren't you in here with me?") and King who was saying the same thing to his fellow black ministers. Two of my heroes of American history. There are more lights in the sky of my pantheon, but this is two of them.

TSherbs
January 15th, 2022, 08:28 AM
Added: Thoreau was jailed for refusing to pay his taxes because the gov was using the money to wage war with Mexico and would result in more territory for slavery. Thoreau considered the war an ethical abomination.

Chuck Naill
January 15th, 2022, 09:40 AM
Added: Thoreau was jailed for refusing to pay his taxes because the gov was using the money to wage war with Mexico and would result in more territory for slavery. Thoreau considered the war an ethical abomination.

AKA, the Battle of the Alamo.

TSherbs
January 15th, 2022, 10:03 AM
Added: Thoreau was jailed for refusing to pay his taxes because the gov was using the money to wage war with Mexico and would result in more territory for slavery. Thoreau considered the war an ethical abomination.

AKA, the Battle of the Alamo.

Yes, although many of us were not taught this history in school, there was a raging political debate about that war in it's day.

Even in the Constitutional Convention (if you read Madison's notes, which are fascinating), several persons spoke out clearly and decisively against the moral horror of slavery and the evil of allowing it to remain embedded in our Constitution (which we did). When people say that slavery was accepted in its time they are wrong. It was bitterly and openly contested, even in Philadelphia in that famous summer of 1787. Later, in an act of cultural white supremacy, we tried to erase this gross, open, immoral, and fully conscious decision from our formal teachings in schools.

This truth telling is part of what CRT is trying to do (decades old effort now), and opposition to it by misrepresenting it is another of those white supremacists methods to keep the truth--the full horror of the cultural decision and apparatus--from being known.

Chuck Naill
January 15th, 2022, 10:15 AM
Read this last year.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50486038-the-zealot-and-the-emancipator

TSherbs
January 15th, 2022, 10:44 AM
John Brown goes too far for me. But thanks for the recommendation. Thoreau revered John Brown, but I don't.

Chuck Naill
January 15th, 2022, 10:53 AM
John Brown goes too far for me. But thanks for the recommendation. Thoreau revered John Brown, but I don't.

Interesting that Robert E. Lee was at Harpers Ferry. There is a saying I heard once about doing the right thing the wrong way. However. if frustration builds enough, you go with it. I guess Bonhoffer did the same.

welch
January 15th, 2022, 05:02 PM
Added: Thoreau was jailed for refusing to pay his taxes because the gov was using the money to wage war with Mexico and would result in more territory for slavery. Thoreau considered the war an ethical abomination.

AKA, the Battle of the Alamo.

No. Thoreau and Abraham Lincoln protested the Mexican War, 1846, as a war to extend slavery. President Polk sent a small army under Zachary Taylor south of what had been considered the Texas border toward the Rio Grande. The Mexican army fired on Taylor's troops, and Congress declared that "American blood was shed on American soil". Lincoln, in his first and last term in the House of Representatives, offered a resolution to discover if "the spot" of the battle was really in the US or Mexico.

The Alamo was an incident in the war by which the Republic of Texas won independence from Mexico. That was about ten years before the US - Mexican War, although it set off the disagreement that would lead to war with Mexico after Texas joined the Union. Texas, of course, was a slave state.

(And, yes, Polk thought it would be nifty to take California and whatever Mexican territory had not been included in the Louisiana Purchase.)

kazoolaw
January 16th, 2022, 09:40 AM
Americans struggle with understanding history at many levels, orders of events [which came first] included.
Middle school students in a school system I was familiar with did not know the correct sequence of WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. God forbid you ask students to identity how many branches of government there are, or to summarize their roles. If you ask people whether the US is a democracy, in my experience 90/100 will be shocked when you tell them "No."

welch
January 16th, 2022, 06:56 PM
Americans struggle with understanding history at many levels, orders of events [which came first] included.
Middle school students in a school system I was familiar with did not know the correct sequence of WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. God forbid you ask students to identity how many branches of government there are, or to summarize their roles. If you ask people whether the US is a democracy, in my experience 90/100 will be shocked when you tell them "No."


We studied the three branches of the US government in 7th grade. That was the year that Kennedy won the presidency, so our teacher had a good reason to have us learn each of cabinet secretaries and what their departments did. We had a grasp of the flow of US history, and later, in 11th grade Miss Roe made sure we understood "the Spot amendment". We took American literature that same year, and our teacher was fascinated by Thoreau and the other writers in "the American Renaissance". Frank Norris, "The Octopus", fit with Populism, and Dreiser's "Sister Carrie" gave us a view of the Progressive Era. That was what we learned in public schools in Washington, DC and in Prince George's County. Not a fancy upper-middle-class place.

"Democracy"? The US is a democratic republic. Eighteenth Century thinkers tended to think of the two competing systems as a monarchy and a republic, and British, including British Americans, tended to think of Louis XIV as the model of absolute monarchy and just what the Stuart kings had aimed at. Sure, everyone was taught that Athenian democracy might work in a city-state of 100,000 people, but not in a large polity. Madison worked through classical confederacies in the Federalist essays before he got to Number 10.

Every colony allowed voting, with the most widespread suffrage of anyplace in the world...at least by 1740. Most colonies allowed adult men to vote if they owned a certain amount of property. The typical historiographical debate is a "fully / merely" debate, as in the arguments around Robert E. Brown, Middle-class Democracy and the Revolution in Massachusetts, 1691-1780. There were property qualifications, but so many men owned the minimum of property that, Brown estimates, "fully" 70% of men, or "merely 70%, could vote. No place else was even close. And Americans tore down barriers to voting in the early years of the republic. By Jackson's time, only "aristocrats" and supporters of "tyranny" wanted to restrict the franchise.

TSherbs
January 16th, 2022, 07:39 PM
... By Jackson's time, only "aristocrats" and supporters of "tyranny" wanted to restrict the franchise.

And the white supremacists.

Bold2013
January 16th, 2022, 07:50 PM
Added: Thoreau was jailed for refusing to pay his taxes because the gov was using the money to wage war with Mexico and would result in more territory for slavery. Thoreau considered the war an ethical abomination.

AKA, the Battle of the Alamo.

Yes, although many of us were not taught this history in school, there was a raging political debate about that war in it's day.

Even in the Constitutional Convention (if you read Madison's notes, which are fascinating), several persons spoke out clearly and decisively against the moral horror of slavery and the evil of allowing it to remain embedded in our Constitution (which we did). When people say that slavery was accepted in its time they are wrong. It was bitterly and openly contested, even in Philadelphia in that famous summer of 1787. Later, in an act of cultural white supremacy, we tried to erase this gross, open, immoral, and fully conscious decision from our formal teachings in schools.

This truth telling is part of what CRT is trying to do (decades old effort now), and opposition to it by misrepresenting it is another of those white supremacists methods to keep the truth--the full horror of the cultural decision and apparatus--from being known.

I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

welch
January 16th, 2022, 09:01 PM
I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction-ebook/dp/B06WV7DHTN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=20CFFLR9RMVNX&keywords=introduction+to+critical+race+theory&qid=1642391852&sprefix=introduction+to+critical+race+theory%2Caps %2C91&sr=8-2

If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1P1V3FS4JH0QK&keywords=white+over+black&qid=1642392063&sprefix=white+over+black%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-2

kazoolaw
January 17th, 2022, 05:20 AM
Americans struggle with understanding history at many levels, orders of events [which came first] included.
Middle school students in a school system I was familiar with did not know the correct sequence of WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. God forbid you ask students to identity how many branches of government there are, or to summarize their roles. If you ask people whether the US is a democracy, in my experience 90/100 will be shocked when you tell them "No."


We studied the three branches of the US government in 7th grade. That was the year that Kennedy won the presidency, so our teacher had a good reason to have us learn each of cabinet secretaries and what their departments did. We had a grasp of the flow of US history, and later, in 11th grade Miss Roe made sure we understood "the Spot amendment". We took American literature that same year, and our teacher was fascinated by Thoreau and the other writers in "the American Renaissance". Frank Norris, "The Octopus", fit with Populism, and Dreiser's "Sister Carrie" gave us a view of the Progressive Era. That was what we learned in public schools in Washington, DC and in Prince George's County. Not a fancy upper-middle-class place.

"Democracy"? The US is a democratic republic. Eighteenth Century thinkers tended to think of the two competing systems as a monarchy and a republic, and British, including British Americans, tended to think of Louis XIV as the model of absolute monarchy and just what the Stuart kings had aimed at. Sure, everyone was taught that Athenian democracy might work in a city-state of 100,000 people, but not in a large polity. Madison worked through classical confederacies in the Federalist essays before he got to Number 10.

Every colony allowed voting, with the most widespread suffrage of anyplace in the world...at least by 1740. Most colonies allowed adult men to vote if they owned a certain amount of property. The typical historiographical debate is a "fully / merely" debate, as in the arguments around Robert E. Brown, Middle-class Democracy and the Revolution in Massachusetts, 1691-1780. There were property qualifications, but so many men owned the minimum of property that, Brown estimates, "fully" 70% of men, or "merely 70%, could vote. No place else was even close. And Americans tore down barriers to voting in the early years of the republic. By Jackson's time, only "aristocrats" and supporters of "tyranny" wanted to restrict the franchise.


Geez Welch, we're a couple old guys.

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 05:29 AM
I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction-ebook/dp/B06WV7DHTN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=20CFFLR9RMVNX&keywords=introduction+to+critical+race+theory&qid=1642391852&sprefix=introduction+to+critical+race+theory%2Caps %2C91&sr=8-2

If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1P1V3FS4JH0QK&keywords=white+over+black&qid=1642392063&sprefix=white+over+black%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-2

True, most don't understand the nature and history of the intellectual and social origins of Critical Race Theory so they continue to suggest its purpose is to make white prople feel bad or to destroy their perceptions of the US.

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 05:32 AM
Added: Thoreau was jailed for refusing to pay his taxes because the gov was using the money to wage war with Mexico and would result in more territory for slavery. Thoreau considered the war an ethical abomination.

AKA, the Battle of the Alamo.

Yes, although many of us were not taught this history in school, there was a raging political debate about that war in it's day.

Even in the Constitutional Convention (if you read Madison's notes, which are fascinating), several persons spoke out clearly and decisively against the moral horror of slavery and the evil of allowing it to remain embedded in our Constitution (which we did). When people say that slavery was accepted in its time they are wrong. It was bitterly and openly contested, even in Philadelphia in that famous summer of 1787. Later, in an act of cultural white supremacy, we tried to erase this gross, open, immoral, and fully conscious decision from our formal teachings in schools.

This truth telling is part of what CRT is trying to do (decades old effort now), and opposition to it by misrepresenting it is another of those white supremacists methods to keep the truth--the full horror of the cultural decision and apparatus--from being known.

I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

SInce you say you are a Christian, do you feel the horrible history of the church, in it's many forms ancient and today, is something important to know? I am making a comparison because I feel knowledge is power. And power can bring about authentic change.

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 06:24 AM
Some good news regarding DeSantis and Trump, trouble in the camp so to speak, with Ann Coulter commenting (what most thinking folks already knew),
"“Trump is demanding to know Ron DeSantis’s booster status, and I can now reveal it,” Ms. Coulter wrote on Twitter. “He was a loyal booster when Trump ran in 2016, but then he learned our president was a liar and con man whose grift was permanent.”

In an email, Ms. Coulter, herself a part-time Florida resident, put a finer point on what makes Mr. DeSantis’s rise unsettling for the former president. “Trump is done,” she wrote. “You guys should stop obsessing over him.”

Oh my, say it isn't so!!!:focus:

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 06:49 AM
Added: Thoreau was jailed for refusing to pay his taxes because the gov was using the money to wage war with Mexico and would result in more territory for slavery. Thoreau considered the war an ethical abomination.

AKA, the Battle of the Alamo.

Yes, although many of us were not taught this history in school, there was a raging political debate about that war in it's day.

Even in the Constitutional Convention (if you read Madison's notes, which are fascinating), several persons spoke out clearly and decisively against the moral horror of slavery and the evil of allowing it to remain embedded in our Constitution (which we did). When people say that slavery was accepted in its time they are wrong. It was bitterly and openly contested, even in Philadelphia in that famous summer of 1787. Later, in an act of cultural white supremacy, we tried to erase this gross, open, immoral, and fully conscious decision from our formal teachings in schools.

This truth telling is part of what CRT is trying to do (decades old effort now), and opposition to it by misrepresenting it is another of those white supremacists methods to keep the truth--the full horror of the cultural decision and apparatus--from being known.

I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Well let me ask you this. The state of my birth is Tennessee. There was a Civil War General named Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was also a slave trader and Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. There was a statue erected to his honor in the state capital. Is this information of importance to you? Is this something you would want members of your family to know? Does it matter morally to you that a person like this be honored?

TSherbs
January 17th, 2022, 07:02 AM
Well let me ask you this. The state of my birth is Tennessee. There was a Civil War General named Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was also a slave trader and Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. There was a statue erected to his honor in the state capital. Is this information of importance to you? Is this something you would want members of your family to know? Does it matter morally to you that a person like this be honored?

Is that statue still standing? I visited Monument Row in Richmond this past summer. It's painful to visit because seeing the empty pedestals is such a reminder of all the pain, torture, abuse, murder, and injustice that has been wrought upon African-Americans over our nation's history. The pain is appropriate to our cultural understanding and identity. I hope that they never remove the defaced pedestals.

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 07:17 AM
Well let me ask you this. The state of my birth is Tennessee. There was a Civil War General named Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was also a slave trader and Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. There was a statue erected to his honor in the state capital. Is this information of importance to you? Is this something you would want members of your family to know? Does it matter morally to you that a person like this be honored?

Is that statue still standing? I visited Monument Row in Richmond this past summer. It's painful to visit because seeing the empty pedestals is such a reminder of all the pain, torture, abuse, murder, and injustice that has been wrought upon African-Americans over our nation's history. The pain is appropriate to our cultural understanding and identity. I hope that they never remove the defaced pedestals.

It was removed and his corpse taken out of Memphis to Columbia, Tennessee and reburied. Ironically, the statue was erected in 1978.

TSherbs
January 17th, 2022, 07:23 AM
Well let me ask you this. The state of my birth is Tennessee. There was a Civil War General named Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was also a slave trader and Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. There was a statue erected to his honor in the state capital. Is this information of importance to you? Is this something you would want members of your family to know? Does it matter morally to you that a person like this be honored?

Is that statue still standing? I visited Monument Row in Richmond this past summer. It's painful to visit because seeing the empty pedestals is such a reminder of all the pain, torture, abuse, murder, and injustice that has been wrought upon African-Americans over our nation's history. The pain is appropriate to our cultural understanding and identity. I hope that they never remove the defaced pedestals.

It was removed and his corpse taken out of Memphis to Columbia, Tennessee and reburied. Ironically, the statue was erected in 1978.

White supremacy dies hard.

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 07:45 AM
Well let me ask you this. The state of my birth is Tennessee. There was a Civil War General named Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was also a slave trader and Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. There was a statue erected to his honor in the state capital. Is this information of importance to you? Is this something you would want members of your family to know? Does it matter morally to you that a person like this be honored?

Is that statue still standing? I visited Monument Row in Richmond this past summer. It's painful to visit because seeing the empty pedestals is such a reminder of all the pain, torture, abuse, murder, and injustice that has been wrought upon African-Americans over our nation's history. The pain is appropriate to our cultural understanding and identity. I hope that they never remove the defaced pedestals.

It was removed and his corpse taken out of Memphis to Columbia, Tennessee and reburied. Ironically, the statue was erected in 1978.

White supremacy dies hard.

In 2016 I attended my first MLK Parade. It was a cold, gloomy day, but the spirit of the parade was amazing. I was emotionally moved by how happy the watchers and participants were displaying the importance of the event. I was able to go to a MLK luncheon and hear the speakers. It was all a happy time, and I was welcomed, which is amazing. Everyone was saying, "happy King Day".

"“I've looked over, and I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you, but I want you to know tonight that we as a people will get to the promised land. So I'm happy tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. ”

Dr. King in Memphis 1968

And, if someone thinks this is some Liberal post, shame on you.

TSherbs
January 17th, 2022, 10:28 AM
Enjoy:

https://youtu.be/crKDDS5D_os

"Shed a Little Light," a cappella

TSherbs
January 17th, 2022, 10:38 AM
Chuck, WTF?

AL.com: Alabama still has combined Martin Luther King, Robert E. Lee holiday.

https://www.al.com/news/2022/01/alabama-still-has-combined-martin-luther-king-robert-e-lee-holiday.html

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 10:42 AM
Chuck, WTF?

AL.com: Alabama still has combined Martin Luther King, Robert E. Lee holiday.

https://www.al.com/news/2022/01/alabama-still-has-combined-martin-luther-king-robert-e-lee-holiday.html

Had no idea.

Well, it is the Heart of Dixie after all.

That said, I am listening to We Shall Overcome. There are those of us who were uneducated and came to understand the work that was done by people who's only crime was being from African descent. As I look at my precious little ones, I get it and I am blessed to have been helped by African American friends who were not angry and helped me to see. They call me a "reverse oreo".

kazoolaw
January 17th, 2022, 02:23 PM
There was a Civil War General named Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was also a slave trader and Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. There was a statue erected to his honor in the state capital. Is this information of importance to you? Is this something you would want members of your family to know? Does it matter morally to you that a person like this be honored?

Given your research you should be able to tell us if this is true"
As Ben Phelan with PBS writes:

"After only a year as Grand Wizard, in January 1869, faced with an ungovernable membership employing methods that seemed increasingly counterproductive, Forrest issued KKK General Order Number One: "It is therefore ordered and decreed, that the masks and costumes of this Order be entirely abolished and destroyed." By the end of his life, Forrest's racial attitudes would evolve -- in 1875, he advocated for the admission of blacks into law school -- and he lived to fully renounce his involvement with the all-but-vanished Klan."

If you read Eddy W. Davison's "Nathan Bedford Forrest: In Search of the Enigma," on page 464 and 474-475, you can see that Forrest not only publicly disavowed the KKK and worked to terminate it, but in August 1874, Forrest "volunteered to help 'exterminate' those men responsible for the continued violence against the blacks." After the murder of four blacks by a lynch mob after they were arrested for defending themselves at a BBQ, Forrest wrote to Tennessee Governor Brown, offering "to exterminate the white marauders who disgrace their race by this cowardly murder of Negroes."

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 02:53 PM
There was a Civil War General named Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was also a slave trader and Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. There was a statue erected to his honor in the state capital. Is this information of importance to you? Is this something you would want members of your family to know? Does it matter morally to you that a person like this be honored?

Given your research you should be able to tell us if this is true"
As Ben Phelan with PBS writes:

"After only a year as Grand Wizard, in January 1869, faced with an ungovernable membership employing methods that seemed increasingly counterproductive, Forrest issued KKK General Order Number One: "It is therefore ordered and decreed, that the masks and costumes of this Order be entirely abolished and destroyed." By the end of his life, Forrest's racial attitudes would evolve -- in 1875, he advocated for the admission of blacks into law school -- and he lived to fully renounce his involvement with the all-but-vanished Klan."

If you read Eddy W. Davison's "Nathan Bedford Forrest: In Search of the Enigma," on page 464 and 474-475, you can see that Forrest not only publicly disavowed the KKK and worked to terminate it, but in August 1874, Forrest "volunteered to help 'exterminate' those men responsible for the continued violence against the blacks." After the murder of four blacks by a lynch mob after they were arrested for defending themselves at a BBQ, Forrest wrote to Tennessee Governor Brown, offering "to exterminate the white marauders who disgrace their race by this cowardly murder of Negroes."


I’ll leave the history for you since you’re the expert, but look up the Fort Pillow massacre in April 1864.

Chuck Naill
January 17th, 2022, 02:54 PM
https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/fort-pillow-massacre

kazoolaw
January 17th, 2022, 10:07 PM
What a horrible thing to claim an affinity with:
" "Delaware," he noted, was a 'slave state that fought beside the North. That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South. There were a couple of states in the way.'" (emphasis added)
"You don't know my state. My state was a slave state, my state is a border state..."

Chuck Naill
January 18th, 2022, 06:51 AM
Notice you went from a rep power of zero to 9...LOL!! :focus:

dneal
January 18th, 2022, 09:30 AM
Notice you went from a rep power of zero to 9...LOL!! :focus:

Why do you care about rep? It seemed important when you had more, but now it’s not when you have less.

kazoolaw
January 18th, 2022, 09:46 AM
Notice you went ...

Chuck refuses to acknowledge Biden being a Confederate in his heart. Post 67.
The more he deflects the more you know he can't rebut.

Chuck Naill
January 18th, 2022, 09:47 AM
I’ll have to think more about Biden being a Confederate.

Chuck Naill
January 18th, 2022, 09:48 AM
That said, how I have refused?

Chuck Naill
January 19th, 2022, 09:43 AM
At least the charge is overstated real estate. NY is coming after the Trumps.

Bold2013
January 19th, 2022, 10:16 AM
I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction-ebook/dp/B06WV7DHTN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=20CFFLR9RMVNX&keywords=introduction+to+critical+race+theory&qid=1642391852&sprefix=introduction+to+critical+race+theory%2Caps %2C91&sr=8-2

If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1P1V3FS4JH0QK&keywords=white+over+black&qid=1642392063&sprefix=white+over+black%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-2

I have read a few books on the subject (admittedly nothing directly from the woke canon).

How can a system using partiality fix the sin of partiality (which has a real and horrid past)?

Chuck Naill
January 19th, 2022, 11:19 AM
A new study suggests Republicans don’t actually believe he won, but saying so serves a political purpose, see NYT for details. Anyway, if they actually believed, more than 2000 would have shown up on 1/6/21. Which means 73 million didn’t consider it something to protest.

welch
January 19th, 2022, 09:40 PM
I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction-ebook/dp/B06WV7DHTN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=20CFFLR9RMVNX&keywords=introduction+to+critical+race+theory&qid=1642391852&sprefix=introduction+to+critical+race+theory%2Caps %2C91&sr=8-2

If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1P1V3FS4JH0QK&keywords=white+over+black&qid=1642392063&sprefix=white+over+black%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-2

I have read a few books on the subject (admittedly nothing directly from the woke canon).

How can a system using partiality fix the sin of partiality (which has a real and horrid past)?

There is no "woke canon". Delgado and Stefancic are the main living law professors who discuss Critical Race Theory. It is work in law schools that tries to figure out ways to extend the Civil Rights Movement. What does "partiality" have to do with their arguments? Do you have any idea what "Critical Race Theory" is about? It sounds like you are ignorantly spouting the Party Line that Fox News poured into you last year. They made it up. Go read something.

Here. At the least, stop repeating idiocy. Learn something about slavery and racism, about the slave system, about the coming of the Civil War, about Reconstruction.

- the fundamental work is Winthrop Jordan, "White Over Black". Jordan asked whether English racism caused slavery or whether slavery cause English Americans to develop racist notions about enslaved people. https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_1?crid=35T8LZRSR0L3L&keywords=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black&qid=1642651805&sprefix=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black%2Caps%2C8 3&sr=8-1

- a shorter work: Edmund Morgan, "American Slavery, American Freedom". Morgan was one of the best Colonial historians, from his work on Puritan families to the founding of Rhode Island to the Stamp Act. This book, one of his last, examines how the Virginia colony came to depend on slave labor.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Slavery-Freedom-Colonial-Virginia-ebook/dp/B00CHH2G8S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3SS66QOGEJ5UG&keywords=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+american+f reedom&qid=1642651959&sprefix=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+am%2Caps%2C 97&sr=8-1

- David Brion Davis, "The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Revolution". Part of a three-volume study. https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Slavery-Age-Revolution-1770-1823/dp/0195126718/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2EX00O75HWGD6&keywords=david+brion+davis&qid=1642652307&sprefix=david+brion+davis%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-1

- Christopher L. Brown, "Moral Capital". A study of the abolitionist movement in Great Britain, which examines the interactions between British and Americans in coming to anti-slavery views and abolitionism in the 1770s and 1780s. How did moral outrage become a movement that outlawed the Trans-Atlantic slave trade about 1790, and then abolished slavery in the British Empire in the 1830s?
https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Capital-Foundations-Abolitionism-Published/dp/0807856983/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?crid=HMK9C7XJ2WYQ&keywords=christopher+L.+brown+moral+capital&qid=1642652823&sprefix=christopher+l.+brown+moral+capital%2Caps%2 C65&sr=8-1-fkmr0

- Manisha Sinha, "The Slaves Cause: A History of Abolition". https://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Cause-History-Abolition-ebook/dp/B01B9HJ0DA/ref=sr_1_1?crid=271P28WLET6M8&keywords=manisha+sinha&qid=1642653044&sprefix=Manisha+sin%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1

- Kenneth M. Stampp: "The Peculiar Institution". https://www.amazon.com/Peculiar-Institution-Kenneth-M-Stamp/dp/B009E7Z6DG/ref=sr_1_2?crid=WUUPIUSI59Z5&keywords=kenneth+m.+stamp&qid=1642652438&sprefix=kenneth+m.+stamp%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-2

- Eugene Genovese, "Roll, Jordan, Roll: The Work the Slaves Made". https://www.amazon.com/Roll-Jordan-World-Slaves-Made/dp/0394716523/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KTF0IZX8UBQF&keywords=eugene+genovese%2C+roll%2C+jordan%2C+roll&qid=1642652523&sprefix=Eugene+Genovese%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1

- Eric Foner, "Reconstruction". The standard history of Reconstruction. https://www.amazon.com/Reconstruction-Updated-Unfinished-Revolution-1863-1877/dp/0062354515/ref=sr_1_1?crid=9TJ17BVKBKM9&keywords=eric+foner+reconstruction&qid=1642653173&sprefix=eric+foner+reconstruction%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-1

- See, also, a digital resource called "Slave Voyages". In the last twenty years, researchers have logged more and more of slave-ship voyages by ship name, starting point, stops, number of slaves, landing in North and South America, return voyages, and by date. Something that is handy with a computer and a database.
https://www.slavevoyages.org/

These are just a few of the standard works. They demonstrate that slavery has been intermeshed with America -- culture, society, economy -- from the beginning. Later for a sampling of works on everything from 1877 through 1970.

TSherbs
January 20th, 2022, 03:30 AM
On the topic of using partiality to right partiality, this is always what justice has done. It's what Jesus means when he says that the meek shall inherit the earth. Justice is when the collective moral and ethical conscience of a society puts its thumb on a scale to right a wrong (or compensate a victim, reward the righteous). This has been done all through human history, all through the Bible (by God). Perfect impartiality is not the goal, nor is it possible (in this life). CRT is an attempt to identify the often subtler and systemic injustices in our society and address possible acts of rectification. This is a wise, intelligent, informed, and deeply American activity. We believe, at least in principle, with liberty and justice for all, a more perfect union.... an attempt to establish justice and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. CRT is an attempt to keep pushing for these goals.

Chuck Naill
January 20th, 2022, 04:54 AM
I did a word study on what it means to be meek decades ago. I won't bore anyone with a long explanation except to say that it can mean simply to not seek your own way.

Today the US is divided because groups seek their own way without taking into consideration the welfare of others. We do it automatically, mindlessly. We are not even aware. However often we have been programed by experience, teachers, and mentors to seek our own way.

To live in the US and not understand the history of indigenous, forced African immigration, and Chinese immigrants is more than simply not being taught. It has become a woeful and willful mindset since information is readily available. Whites recoil against the notion they may have an advantage. They see others as a threat. Microaggression toward these groups have just become the common vernacular.

For me, the term woke means to become aware and something positive.

Two authors that have helped me are Eric Foner's, The Second Founding and W.E.B Debois' The Souls of Black Folk.

TSherbs
January 20th, 2022, 05:00 AM
I did a word study on what it means to be meek decades ago. I won't bore anyone with a long explanation except to say that it can mean simply to not seek your own way.

Today the US is divided because groups seek their own way without taking into consideration the welfare of others. We do it automatically, mindlessly. We are not even aware. However often we have been programed by experience, teachers, and mentors to seek our own way.

To live in the US and not understand the history of indigenous, forced African immigration, and Chinese immigrants is more than simply not being taught. It has become a woeful and willful mindset since information is readily available. Whites recoil against the notion they may have an advantage. They see others as a threat. Microaggression toward these groups have just become the common vernacular.

For me, the term woke means to become aware and something positive.

Two authors that have helped me are Eric Foner's, The Second Founding and W.E.B Debois' The Souls of Black Folk.


Or try this: The first shall be last and the last shall be first.....Or any of the punishment/reward passages (there are many, in both the OT and the NT)....

Chuck Naill
January 20th, 2022, 06:09 AM
I have evolved to believe that Christianity has centered its focus too much on punishment and reward. This produces the concept of "I am not perfect, but I am saved" mental construct. This causes them to miss passages like, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", or "love your neighbor as you love yourself". One does not need to be "saved" to follow Jesus' words. It is easier to just say your saved, than actually be a disciple of Jesus. I will add, Buddhists are no better.

Bold2013
January 20th, 2022, 08:12 AM
tldr. Sin is real. Injustice will not bring justice


Welch I am aware of its origins with law professionals.

American slavery is enormous egregious sin. But it is not the original sin. All sins rightfully viewed are first and foremost against God (see David and Bathsheba). We can only be free from the bondage of sin through Him not through the work of “anti racism”.

This country needs justice but we must never bend or pervert justice in order to get there. If we do we will be worse off.

Rm 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.

Deut 10:17
For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

Deut 16
18 Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the Lord your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. 19 Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the innocent. 20 Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live and possess the land the Lord your God is giving you.

Deut 24

14 “You shall not oppress a hired worker who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your brothers or one of the sojourners who are in your land within your towns. 15 You shall give him his wages on the same day, before the sun sets (for he is poor and counts on it), lest he cry against you to the Lord, and you be guilty of sin.

16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

17 “You shall not pervert the justice due to the sojourner or to the fatherless, or take a widow's garment in pledge, 18 but you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you from there; therefore I command you to do this.

Rm 14

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess[b] to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Bold2013
January 20th, 2022, 08:16 AM
I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction-ebook/dp/B06WV7DHTN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=20CFFLR9RMVNX&keywords=introduction+to+critical+race+theory&qid=1642391852&sprefix=introduction+to+critical+race+theory%2Caps %2C91&sr=8-2

If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1P1V3FS4JH0QK&keywords=white+over+black&qid=1642392063&sprefix=white+over+black%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-2

I have read a few books on the subject (admittedly nothing directly from the woke canon).

How can a system using partiality fix the sin of partiality (which has a real and horrid past)?

There is no "woke canon". Delgado and Stefancic are the main living law professors who discuss Critical Race Theory. It is work in law schools that tries to figure out ways to extend the Civil Rights Movement. What does "partiality" have to do with their arguments? Do you have any idea what "Critical Race Theory" is about? It sounds like you are ignorantly spouting the Party Line that Fox News poured into you last year. They made it up. Go read something.

Here. At the least, stop repeating idiocy. Learn something about slavery and racism, about the slave system, about the coming of the Civil War, about Reconstruction.

- the fundamental work is Winthrop Jordan, "White Over Black". Jordan asked whether English racism caused slavery or whether slavery cause English Americans to develop racist notions about enslaved people. https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_1?crid=35T8LZRSR0L3L&keywords=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black&qid=1642651805&sprefix=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black%2Caps%2C8 3&sr=8-1

- a shorter work: Edmund Morgan, "American Slavery, American Freedom". Morgan was one of the best Colonial historians, from his work on Puritan families to the founding of Rhode Island to the Stamp Act. This book, one of his last, examines how the Virginia colony came to depend on slave labor.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Slavery-Freedom-Colonial-Virginia-ebook/dp/B00CHH2G8S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3SS66QOGEJ5UG&keywords=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+american+f reedom&qid=1642651959&sprefix=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+am%2Caps%2C 97&sr=8-1

- David Brion Davis, "The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Revolution". Part of a three-volume study. https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Slavery-Age-Revolution-1770-1823/dp/0195126718/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2EX00O75HWGD6&keywords=david+brion+davis&qid=1642652307&sprefix=david+brion+davis%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-1

- Christopher L. Brown, "Moral Capital". A study of the abolitionist movement in Great Britain, which examines the interactions between British and Americans in coming to anti-slavery views and abolitionism in the 1770s and 1780s. How did moral outrage become a movement that outlawed the Trans-Atlantic slave trade about 1790, and then abolished slavery in the British Empire in the 1830s?
https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Capital-Foundations-Abolitionism-Published/dp/0807856983/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?crid=HMK9C7XJ2WYQ&keywords=christopher+L.+brown+moral+capital&qid=1642652823&sprefix=christopher+l.+brown+moral+capital%2Caps%2 C65&sr=8-1-fkmr0

- Manisha Sinha, "The Slaves Cause: A History of Abolition". https://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Cause-History-Abolition-ebook/dp/B01B9HJ0DA/ref=sr_1_1?crid=271P28WLET6M8&keywords=manisha+sinha&qid=1642653044&sprefix=Manisha+sin%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1

- Kenneth M. Stampp: "The Peculiar Institution". https://www.amazon.com/Peculiar-Institution-Kenneth-M-Stamp/dp/B009E7Z6DG/ref=sr_1_2?crid=WUUPIUSI59Z5&keywords=kenneth+m.+stamp&qid=1642652438&sprefix=kenneth+m.+stamp%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-2

- Eugene Genovese, "Roll, Jordan, Roll: The Work the Slaves Made". https://www.amazon.com/Roll-Jordan-World-Slaves-Made/dp/0394716523/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KTF0IZX8UBQF&keywords=eugene+genovese%2C+roll%2C+jordan%2C+roll&qid=1642652523&sprefix=Eugene+Genovese%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1

- Eric Foner, "Reconstruction". The standard history of Reconstruction. https://www.amazon.com/Reconstruction-Updated-Unfinished-Revolution-1863-1877/dp/0062354515/ref=sr_1_1?crid=9TJ17BVKBKM9&keywords=eric+foner+reconstruction&qid=1642653173&sprefix=eric+foner+reconstruction%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-1

- See, also, a digital resource called "Slave Voyages". In the last twenty years, researchers have logged more and more of slave-ship voyages by ship name, starting point, stops, number of slaves, landing in North and South America, return voyages, and by date. Something that is handy with a computer and a database.
https://www.slavevoyages.org/

These are just a few of the standard works. They demonstrate that slavery has been intermeshed with America -- culture, society, economy -- from the beginning. Later for a sampling of works on everything from 1877 through 1970.

Thanks for the robust reply and sources. I don’t watch or read the news (but I do listen to NPR and conservative radio on a weekly rotation).

I don’t disagree about America’s past evils and its consequences . I just disagree about how to fix them.

Chuck Naill
January 20th, 2022, 11:19 AM
An old lady once said, "there is more than one way to skin a cat".

"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can."

John Wesley

If the law school studies help, and I think they are doing it. If there is another way, do it. The absolute wrong opinion to hold on to is that your way is the only way. It has never worked, and it never will. Even Jesus didn't give a to do list, he just said treat others as you'd want to be treated. I guess he figured if people followed that advice, the right things would get accomplished. And the law of reciprocity is not unique to one religion.

Empty_of_Clouds
January 20th, 2022, 11:55 AM
I have often wondered where these '12 laws' come from as they are never directly referenced and don't appear to exist in this form in any of the usual scriptures.

Chuck Naill
January 20th, 2022, 12:14 PM
I have often wondered where these '12 laws' come from as they are never directly referenced and don't appear to exist in this form in any of the usual scriptures.

Good question, EOC. Do you generally find you agree with them?

I stumbled upon them maybe 3-5 years ago as a result of a conversation with a Buddhist on a similar, unmoderated forum. When someone says they believe in Karma, I always ask if they are familiar with these 12 laws.

I don't see them any different from the 10 commandments. Some see them as something you must obey or perish. Why not consider them as laws that will produce the most out of life? Of course we might not always exemplify, but that's okay if we work our way back on some level.

TSherbs
January 20th, 2022, 12:20 PM
American slavery is enormous egregious sin. But it is not the original sin. All sins rightfully viewed are first and foremost against God (see David and Bathsheba). We can only be free from the bondage of sin through Him not through the work of “anti racism”.

CRT seeks justice, not eradication from "sin."

Don't switch the terms on it. This is one of the maneuvers of white supremacy: to ask CRT to do what it itself is not attempting to do or designed to do. CRT is not a religious investigation: it is fully secular, and mostly academic.

This is like asking water to be wine. Only Jesus did that, and only "believers" believe it.

Chuck Naill
January 20th, 2022, 12:30 PM
American slavery is enormous egregious sin. But it is not the original sin. All sins rightfully viewed are first and foremost against God (see David and Bathsheba). We can only be free from the bondage of sin through Him not through the work of “anti racism”.

CRT seeks justice, not eradication from "sin."

Don't switch the terms on it. This is one of the maneuvers of white supremacy: to ask CRT to do what it itself is not attempting to do or designed to do. CRT is not a religious investigation: it is fully secular, and mostly academic.

This is like asking water to be wine. Only Jesus did that, and only "believers" believe it.

Well put. Even in Christianity sin is never eradicated.

If there is a sin on this side of Heaven, it is when good people doing nothing. It is when people are blind and refuse to see. For me, when Jesus said in Luke 4 that he came for recovery of sight for the blind, it means there is opportunities in life to see.

Empty_of_Clouds
January 20th, 2022, 12:40 PM
I have often wondered where these '12 laws' come from as they are never directly referenced and don't appear to exist in this form in any of the usual scriptures.

Good question, EOC. Do you generally find you agree with them?

I stumbled upon them maybe 3-5 years ago as a result of a conversation with a Buddhist on a similar, unmoderated forum. When someone says they believe in Karma, I always ask if they are familiar with these 12 laws.

I don't see them any different from the 10 commandments. Some see them as something you must obey or perish. Why not consider them as laws that will produce the most out of life? Of course we might not always exemplify, but that's okay if we work our way back on some level.


Only in parts. These laws appear to be cobbled together recently. They don't, in the main, represent the Buddhist view of karma, which has nothing to do with reciprocity, judgement, or rewards and punishments. Karma for Buddhists represents the actions that keep us in the suffering that is saṃsāra, and the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path is a means of escaping saṃsāra thus eliminating suffering. So, unlike the popular view of karma where what goes around comes around, which is seen mostly as a system of reward and punishment, there is no set linear relationship between actions and outcomes in Buddhism.

I cannot speak for the exact form of understanding of karma in other traditions, other than to say that here in the West we often end up with a mishmash of ideas where an interested person has synthesised various concepts from different traditions.

Chuck Naill
January 21st, 2022, 06:21 AM
“We already have cooperated,” Mr. Raffensperger said in an interview with Fox News on Thursday. “Any information that they’ve requested, we sent it to them. And if we’re compelled to come before a grand jury, obviously, we will follow the law and come before a grand jury and testify.”

The DA in Atlanta requests a grand jury to investigate the former president's possible election interference. Above is the response from Mr. Raffensperger.

Chuck Naill
January 21st, 2022, 06:25 AM
I have often wondered where these '12 laws' come from as they are never directly referenced and don't appear to exist in this form in any of the usual scriptures.

Good question, EOC. Do you generally find you agree with them?

I stumbled upon them maybe 3-5 years ago as a result of a conversation with a Buddhist on a similar, unmoderated forum. When someone says they believe in Karma, I always ask if they are familiar with these 12 laws.

I don't see them any different from the 10 commandments. Some see them as something you must obey or perish. Why not consider them as laws that will produce the most out of life? Of course we might not always exemplify, but that's okay if we work our way back on some level.


Only in parts. These laws appear to be cobbled together recently. They don't, in the main, represent the Buddhist view of karma, which has nothing to do with reciprocity, judgement, or rewards and punishments. Karma for Buddhists represents the actions that keep us in the suffering that is saṃsāra, and the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path is a means of escaping saṃsāra thus eliminating suffering. So, unlike the popular view of karma where what goes around comes around, which is seen mostly as a system of reward and punishment, there is no set linear relationship between actions and outcomes in Buddhism.

I cannot speak for the exact form of understanding of karma in other traditions, other than to say that here in the West we often end up with a mishmash of ideas where an interested person has synthesised various concepts from different traditions.

Whether or not, it would be hard to argue against making these 12 laws a part of one's life.

kazoolaw
January 21st, 2022, 07:47 AM
Don't switch the terms on it. This is one of the maneuvers of white supremacy: to ask CRT to do what it itself is not attempting to do or designed to do. CRT is not a religious investigation: it is fully secular, and mostly academic.


Are statements that mathematics, punctuality, and grammar are constructs of white supremacy CRT statements, or something else?

Chuck Naill
January 21st, 2022, 09:12 AM
As with most things, there is a theory and then various interpretations. Nothing new here. Try to consider CRT as Ted and Welch have explained.

kazoolaw
January 21st, 2022, 10:29 AM
i ask because the posts above because they focus on the teaching of history. I want to know whether I am understanding correctly, particularly as TS has said CRT has been misrepresented.

welch
January 21st, 2022, 10:49 AM
Don't switch the terms on it. This is one of the maneuvers of white supremacy: to ask CRT to do what it itself is not attempting to do or designed to do. CRT is not a religious investigation: it is fully secular, and mostly academic.


Are statements that mathematics, punctuality, and grammar are constructs of white supremacy CRT statements, or something else?


I think they are "something else". No mention of those in Delgado and Stefancic's "Intro". Not in their references, either. Not in their suggested classroom exercises, either.

Take a read, Kaz. The references and "Further Readings" show where they are going. By the way, much of it is in law review articles.

Chuck Naill
January 21st, 2022, 10:58 AM
i ask because the posts above because they focus on the teaching of history. I want to know whether I am understanding correctly, particularly as TS has said CRT has been misrepresented.


Self education is your friend.

kazoolaw
January 21st, 2022, 11:00 AM
Thanks for reply. On my first quick search, it looked to me that CRT is whatever the particular author/speaker/reader says it is. I'll take a look at the references.

Chuck Naill
January 21st, 2022, 11:29 AM
Wrong, but whatever....LOL!!

kazoolaw
January 21st, 2022, 12:43 PM
>>blink<<

terim
January 26th, 2022, 03:08 PM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

same as
dAR

Daughters of the American Revolution. They gave me a scholarship in high school and I was mortified but I wasn't cool enough to turn it down.

Chuck Naill
January 26th, 2022, 06:21 PM
Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.


Now do HRC.

same as
dAR

Daughters of the American Revolution. They gave me a scholarship in high school and I was mortified but I wasn't cool enough to turn it down.

LOL!! Good for you.

Chip
January 31st, 2022, 05:38 PM
This just came to light, in a stack of papers. :cool:

The election was rigged, he proclaimed with a sneer,
If I'm wrong may God strike me senseless, right here!
Ka-Boom! When he woke he was rendered quite dumb
By the sight of St. Peter's big downpointing thumb.

The clouds opened up and he plummeted down
to the realm under mountain and farmland and town,
where what to his wondering eyes should appear,
but a flaming red Bubba with a sixpack of beer.

Have a brewski, amigo, said the dude with the horns,
Pretty soon you will wish that you'd never been born.
But the beer it was boiling, it scorched his small fingers,
And Satan said "Donald you've no time to linger.

Your cellmate is eager, your cellmate is waiting,
he's done Wiki-leaking and is now master baiting,
he'll welcome you into our infernal dance:
It's Vladimir Putin, not wearing his pants.

Chuck Naill
January 31st, 2022, 08:53 PM
Trump/Voting Machines
https://www.ocregister.com/2022/01/31/there-were-two-executive-orders-about-seizing-voting-machines/

TSherbs
February 1st, 2022, 03:59 PM
Trump on Jan 6, via Trevor Noah:

“Trump leans on his supporters really hard,” Noah continued. “I mean, first they had to storm the Capitol because he lost the election. Then their donations went to his legal fees, because he’s always getting sued. Now they have to protest if he gets charged? Where does it end? If Trump does go to prison, is he going to make these poor people smuggle cigarettes up their butt?”

Trump always asks for more than he gives. That's part of his MO. Suckers.

Chuck Naill
February 1st, 2022, 04:31 PM
Trump on Jan 6, via Trevor Noah:

“Trump leans on his supporters really hard,” Noah continued. “I mean, first they had to storm the Capitol because he lost the election. Then their donations went to his legal fees, because he’s always getting sued. Now they have to protest if he gets charged? Where does it end? If Trump does go to prison, is he going to make these poor people smuggle cigarettes up their butt?”

Trump always asks for more than he gives. That's part of his MO. Suckers.

All demagogues start out this way. Once they've been hooked, they must serve them to continue to get what they want. Remember, "only I can fix it". First you convince them it's broke.

What would cause a rational person to think Trump knows more than a career general? That he has any concept of being a POW for 5 years? When I see military people go ga ga, I have to wonder.

Bold2013
February 4th, 2022, 11:33 AM
On the topic of using partiality to right partiality, this is always what justice has done. It's what Jesus means when he says that the meek shall inherit the earth. Justice is when the collective moral and ethical conscience of a society puts its thumb on a scale to right a wrong (or compensate a victim, reward the righteous). This has been done all through human history, all through the Bible (by God). Perfect impartiality is not the goal, nor is it possible (in this life). CRT is an attempt to identify the often subtler and systemic injustices in our society and address possible acts of rectification. This is a wise, intelligent, informed, and deeply American activity. We believe, at least in principle, with liberty and justice for all, a more perfect union.... an attempt to establish justice and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. CRT is an attempt to keep pushing for these goals.

Putting fingers on the scale to equal things out is not justice but injustice. It is evil even if you have good intentions. Each person should and will eventually pay for the crimes that they commit, not what others did.

“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere” -MLK

Chuck Naill
February 4th, 2022, 11:54 AM
The concept of eventual payment is a maybe at best. It is something you've decided to believe, but it does not negate the present circumstances. You decide how to live and love.

As a friend recently said, you mean a loving god would hold people who have had no ability to decide for themselves and for whatever bad behavior to be thrust into eternal punishment is something very difficult to consider.

Chip
February 4th, 2022, 12:43 PM
According to the Pew Research Center, there are about 2.3 billion people on earth who claim to be Christian.

If god were to spend exactly one second judging each one after death, it would take 73 years of constant attention just to take care of those presently alive.

Given a choice between faith and math, I'll take math. :)

Chuck Naill
February 4th, 2022, 01:04 PM
According to the Pew Research Center, there are about 2.3 billion people on earth who claim to be Christian.

If god were to spend exactly one second judging each one after death, it would take 73 years of constant attention just to take care of those presently alive.

Given a choice between faith and math, I'll take math. :)

It would not take a second to judge. We are all flawed. That's not the issue. We think more highly of ourselves that is reasonable. It is why we should consider others and love our neighbors as WE DO OURSELVES...

Bold2013
February 4th, 2022, 01:36 PM
According to the Pew Research Center, there are about 2.3 billion people on earth who claim to be Christian.

If god were to spend exactly one second judging each one after death, it would take 73 years of constant attention just to take care of those presently alive.

Given a choice between faith and math, I'll take math. :)

Math is racist now too

kazoolaw
February 4th, 2022, 03:16 PM
According to the Pew Research Center, there are about 2.3 billion people on earth who claim to be Christian.

If god were to spend exactly one second judging each one after death, it would take 73 years of constant attention just to take care of those presently alive.

Given a choice between faith and math, I'll take math. :)


Why would God take so long? And why would God not judge all people?
But not surprised you picked math, being a racist subject and all?

Chuck Naill
February 4th, 2022, 04:15 PM
"A day is a thousand years".

Chip
February 4th, 2022, 04:19 PM
So your god is basically a savage automaton, like a super IRS computer, that delivers instantaneous judgements, some delivering souls to eternal torment.

Remind me why you believe this is good?

Not surprised you can't do math. Nor much else.

Chuck Naill
February 4th, 2022, 04:24 PM
That's an interesting construct, "savage automation". That is how many see God.

Bold2013
February 4th, 2022, 08:07 PM
So your god is basically a savage automaton, like a super IRS computer, that delivers instantaneous judgements, some delivering souls to eternal torment.

Remind me why you believe this is good?

Not surprised you can't do math. Nor much else.

But what standard do you claim things to be good or not?

kazoolaw
February 4th, 2022, 09:13 PM
So your god is basically a savage automaton, like a super IRS computer, that delivers instantaneous judgements, some delivering souls to eternal torment.

Remind me why you believe this is good?

Not surprised you can't do math. Nor much else.

Chip, you live in a dystopian world of your own creation, with a god made in your own image and then rage at everyone else, trying to pick a fight and only demonstrating your anti-religious bigotry. "savage automaton". Nice turn of phrase: sounds like a thrash metal band. Yours?

You have nothing upon which to judge my math skills. On the other hand we've seen your debating skills and....

Stick with a calculator.

Chip
February 4th, 2022, 11:29 PM
Wrong again. I live in a mountain valley with a river, lots of wild animals, rough weather, and all sorts of undeniable things and processes (e.g. gravity), in which there's no room nor need for a god. Having worked nearly all my adult life outdoors, and survived, I have a pretty firm grip on what's real.

For all your petty spitting and ducking and dodging, you still haven't made it clear how any god (in whose image you were allegedly created) can deliver all those judgements in such a short time. When you're done with that, you can tell us just where heaven is (and hell), and how it is that dead people (including those vaporized at Hiroshima) come back to life in one or the other.

Or is your faith based on what people tell you (and Fox News?)

Empty_of_Clouds
February 5th, 2022, 12:43 AM
Wrong again. I live in a mountain valley with a river, lots of wild animals, rough weather, and all sorts of undeniable things and processes (e.g. gravity), in which there's no room nor need for a god. Having worked nearly all my adult life outdoors, and survived, I have a pretty firm grip on what's real.

For all your petty spitting and ducking and dodging, you still haven't made it clear how any god (in whose image you were allegedly created) can deliver all those judgements in such a short time. When you're done with that, you can tell us just where heaven is (and hell), and how it is that dead people (including those vaporized at Hiroshima) come back to life in one or the other.

Or is your faith based on what people tell you (and Fox News?)


Any statement on the nature of reality lacks objectivity.


As for God's judgements (not that I am a believer of course). Why does time even enter into the discussion? To the creator of everything, do you think time has any meaning? All those judgements could happen in a single instant. It's not likely that your God needs to sift through the legal arguments of each person's life!

Incidentally, I rather like that in the Bhagavad gita when Sri Krishna starts the conversation with Arjuna the whole universe stops. That's how gods do it! :)

TSherbs
February 5th, 2022, 06:22 AM
I don't find arguments about "God" very productive, but I have my own sense of spirituality and view toward this thing we call "time" (which I do find intriguing). "Time" is a fascinating idea, but that should be a different thread.

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 08:34 AM
I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction-ebook/dp/B06WV7DHTN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=20CFFLR9RMVNX&keywords=introduction+to+critical+race+theory&qid=1642391852&sprefix=introduction+to+critical+race+theory%2Caps %2C91&sr=8-2

If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1P1V3FS4JH0QK&keywords=white+over+black&qid=1642392063&sprefix=white+over+black%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-2

I have read a few books on the subject (admittedly nothing directly from the woke canon).

How can a system using partiality fix the sin of partiality (which has a real and horrid past)?

There is no "woke canon". Delgado and Stefancic are the main living law professors who discuss Critical Race Theory. It is work in law schools that tries to figure out ways to extend the Civil Rights Movement. What does "partiality" have to do with their arguments? Do you have any idea what "Critical Race Theory" is about? It sounds like you are ignorantly spouting the Party Line that Fox News poured into you last year. They made it up. Go read something.

Here. At the least, stop repeating idiocy. Learn something about slavery and racism, about the slave system, about the coming of the Civil War, about Reconstruction.

- the fundamental work is Winthrop Jordan, "White Over Black". Jordan asked whether English racism caused slavery or whether slavery cause English Americans to develop racist notions about enslaved people. https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_1?crid=35T8LZRSR0L3L&keywords=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black&qid=1642651805&sprefix=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black%2Caps%2C8 3&sr=8-1

- a shorter work: Edmund Morgan, "American Slavery, American Freedom". Morgan was one of the best Colonial historians, from his work on Puritan families to the founding of Rhode Island to the Stamp Act. This book, one of his last, examines how the Virginia colony came to depend on slave labor.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Slavery-Freedom-Colonial-Virginia-ebook/dp/B00CHH2G8S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3SS66QOGEJ5UG&keywords=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+american+f reedom&qid=1642651959&sprefix=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+am%2Caps%2C 97&sr=8-1

- David Brion Davis, "The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Revolution". Part of a three-volume study. https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Slavery-Age-Revolution-1770-1823/dp/0195126718/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2EX00O75HWGD6&keywords=david+brion+davis&qid=1642652307&sprefix=david+brion+davis%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-1

- Christopher L. Brown, "Moral Capital". A study of the abolitionist movement in Great Britain, which examines the interactions between British and Americans in coming to anti-slavery views and abolitionism in the 1770s and 1780s. How did moral outrage become a movement that outlawed the Trans-Atlantic slave trade about 1790, and then abolished slavery in the British Empire in the 1830s?
https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Capital-Foundations-Abolitionism-Published/dp/0807856983/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?crid=HMK9C7XJ2WYQ&keywords=christopher+L.+brown+moral+capital&qid=1642652823&sprefix=christopher+l.+brown+moral+capital%2Caps%2 C65&sr=8-1-fkmr0

- Manisha Sinha, "The Slaves Cause: A History of Abolition". https://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Cause-History-Abolition-ebook/dp/B01B9HJ0DA/ref=sr_1_1?crid=271P28WLET6M8&keywords=manisha+sinha&qid=1642653044&sprefix=Manisha+sin%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1

- Kenneth M. Stampp: "The Peculiar Institution". https://www.amazon.com/Peculiar-Institution-Kenneth-M-Stamp/dp/B009E7Z6DG/ref=sr_1_2?crid=WUUPIUSI59Z5&keywords=kenneth+m.+stamp&qid=1642652438&sprefix=kenneth+m.+stamp%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-2

- Eugene Genovese, "Roll, Jordan, Roll: The Work the Slaves Made". https://www.amazon.com/Roll-Jordan-World-Slaves-Made/dp/0394716523/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KTF0IZX8UBQF&keywords=eugene+genovese%2C+roll%2C+jordan%2C+roll&qid=1642652523&sprefix=Eugene+Genovese%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1

- Eric Foner, "Reconstruction". The standard history of Reconstruction. https://www.amazon.com/Reconstruction-Updated-Unfinished-Revolution-1863-1877/dp/0062354515/ref=sr_1_1?crid=9TJ17BVKBKM9&keywords=eric+foner+reconstruction&qid=1642653173&sprefix=eric+foner+reconstruction%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-1

- See, also, a digital resource called "Slave Voyages". In the last twenty years, researchers have logged more and more of slave-ship voyages by ship name, starting point, stops, number of slaves, landing in North and South America, return voyages, and by date. Something that is handy with a computer and a database.
https://www.slavevoyages.org/

These are just a few of the standard works. They demonstrate that slavery has been intermeshed with America -- culture, society, economy -- from the beginning. Later for a sampling of works on everything from 1877 through 1970.

Coming back to you with a question about the scope of CRT.
Cruising the web there are any number of positions associated with CRT by various folks: punctuality, hard work,plan for the future are white traits.


Then I came across the following post which I can't cut and paste on my IPad. Please take a look at the middle, claiming to be excerpts of CRT curriculum. IF TRUE is this part of what you consider CRT?

https://althouse.blogspot.com/2022/02/in-her-1998-book-how-jews-became-white.html

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 08:40 AM
I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction-ebook/dp/B06WV7DHTN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=20CFFLR9RMVNX&keywords=introduction+to+critical+race+theory&qid=1642391852&sprefix=introduction+to+critical+race+theory%2Caps %2C91&sr=8-2

If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1P1V3FS4JH0QK&keywords=white+over+black&qid=1642392063&sprefix=white+over+black%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-2

I have read a few books on the subject (admittedly nothing directly from the woke canon).

How can a system using partiality fix the sin of partiality (which has a real and horrid past)?

There is no "woke canon". Delgado and Stefancic are the main living law professors who discuss Critical Race Theory. It is work in law schools that tries to figure out ways to extend the Civil Rights Movement. What does "partiality" have to do with their arguments? Do you have any idea what "Critical Race Theory" is about? It sounds like you are ignorantly spouting the Party Line that Fox News poured into you last year. They made it up. Go read something.

Here. At the least, stop repeating idiocy. Learn something about slavery and racism, about the slave system, about the coming of the Civil War, about Reconstruction.

- the fundamental work is Winthrop Jordan, "White Over Black". Jordan asked whether English racism caused slavery or whether slavery cause English Americans to develop racist notions about enslaved people. https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_1?crid=35T8LZRSR0L3L&keywords=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black&qid=1642651805&sprefix=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black%2Caps%2C8 3&sr=8-1

- a shorter work: Edmund Morgan, "American Slavery, American Freedom". Morgan was one of the best Colonial historians, from his work on Puritan families to the founding of Rhode Island to the Stamp Act. This book, one of his last, examines how the Virginia colony came to depend on slave labor.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Slavery-Freedom-Colonial-Virginia-ebook/dp/B00CHH2G8S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3SS66QOGEJ5UG&keywords=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+american+f reedom&qid=1642651959&sprefix=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+am%2Caps%2C 97&sr=8-1

- David Brion Davis, "The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Revolution". Part of a three-volume study. https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Slavery-Age-Revolution-1770-1823/dp/0195126718/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2EX00O75HWGD6&keywords=david+brion+davis&qid=1642652307&sprefix=david+brion+davis%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-1

- Christopher L. Brown, "Moral Capital". A study of the abolitionist movement in Great Britain, which examines the interactions between British and Americans in coming to anti-slavery views and abolitionism in the 1770s and 1780s. How did moral outrage become a movement that outlawed the Trans-Atlantic slave trade about 1790, and then abolished slavery in the British Empire in the 1830s?
https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Capital-Foundations-Abolitionism-Published/dp/0807856983/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?crid=HMK9C7XJ2WYQ&keywords=christopher+L.+brown+moral+capital&qid=1642652823&sprefix=christopher+l.+brown+moral+capital%2Caps%2 C65&sr=8-1-fkmr0

- Manisha Sinha, "The Slaves Cause: A History of Abolition". https://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Cause-History-Abolition-ebook/dp/B01B9HJ0DA/ref=sr_1_1?crid=271P28WLET6M8&keywords=manisha+sinha&qid=1642653044&sprefix=Manisha+sin%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1

- Kenneth M. Stampp: "The Peculiar Institution". https://www.amazon.com/Peculiar-Institution-Kenneth-M-Stamp/dp/B009E7Z6DG/ref=sr_1_2?crid=WUUPIUSI59Z5&keywords=kenneth+m.+stamp&qid=1642652438&sprefix=kenneth+m.+stamp%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-2

- Eugene Genovese, "Roll, Jordan, Roll: The Work the Slaves Made". https://www.amazon.com/Roll-Jordan-World-Slaves-Made/dp/0394716523/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KTF0IZX8UBQF&keywords=eugene+genovese%2C+roll%2C+jordan%2C+roll&qid=1642652523&sprefix=Eugene+Genovese%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1

- Eric Foner, "Reconstruction". The standard history of Reconstruction. https://www.amazon.com/Reconstruction-Updated-Unfinished-Revolution-1863-1877/dp/0062354515/ref=sr_1_1?crid=9TJ17BVKBKM9&keywords=eric+foner+reconstruction&qid=1642653173&sprefix=eric+foner+reconstruction%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-1

- See, also, a digital resource called "Slave Voyages". In the last twenty years, researchers have logged more and more of slave-ship voyages by ship name, starting point, stops, number of slaves, landing in North and South America, return voyages, and by date. Something that is handy with a computer and a database.
https://www.slavevoyages.org/

These are just a few of the standard works. They demonstrate that slavery has been intermeshed with America -- culture, society, economy -- from the beginning. Later for a sampling of works on everything from 1877 through 1970.

Coming back to you with a question about the scope of CRT.
Cruising the web there are any number of positions associated with CRT by various folks: punctuality, hard work,plan for the future are white traits.


Then I came across the following post which I can't cut and paste on my IPad. Please take a look at the middle, claiming to be excerpts of CRT curriculum. IF TRUE is this part of what you consider CRT?

https://althouse.blogspot.com/2022/02/in-her-1998-book-how-jews-became-white.html






When "cruising" what were your search terms?

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 09:01 AM
Cruising's not searching. My cruising is following stories from link-to-link, term-to-term.
A search term would include "crt curriculum" to review the source material.

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 09:05 AM
I am trying to understand how you land on the sources you think are meaningful for you, and indirectly us, and that you choose to post.

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 11:08 AM
I am trying to understand how you land on the sources you think are meaningful for you, and indirectly us, and that you choose to post.

For this particular post, Welch's list of sources (and your posts by the way) seem to characterize CRT as a theory which re-examines American history in light of the African-American experience, with ramifications to the present day. It also seems to me to be something more than Welch's description: CRT Plus?.
For example, the following quote from the linked post: [A] recent paper in the Journal of the American Psychoanalytical Association [argues that]... Whiteness is a condition one first acquires and then one has — a malignant, parasitic-like condition... [that] renders its hosts’ appetites voracious, insatiable, and perverse...
There is a thread of thought describing "multi-racial whiteness" which does not at first glance to be included in the description Welch provided.
I have no opinion whether the things I've mentioned should or shouldn't be included, just asking. Horrible analogy: are the apocryphal books part of the Bible or not?

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 11:34 AM
“Whiteness” apart from actually physicality, is an acquired mentality. We might not realize until we acquire more information. For example, I was educated the Alamo was for Texas independence. It was only in regard to a bunch of people wanting it to be slave legal.

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 11:36 AM
Whites think they can do anything, others don’t. Until you understand what I’m saying, it will never resonate.

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 11:50 AM
No, I understand your comment, it's not been my observation.

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 11:58 AM
You don’t need to observe to know.

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 11:59 AM
I became aware by reading and talking to people of color.

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 12:03 PM
“Whiteness” apart from actually physicality, is an acquired mentality.

Under your manipulation of the word then people are in a constant state of flux, moving in and out of whiteness. The African American who completes law school and is a Supreme Court Justice is white; a child of an Ukrainian unemployed meth addict who can't finish grade school is black.
We're convulsed enough in the US over issues of race, class, and poverty without choosing to muddle the language.

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 12:10 PM
You don’t need to observe to know.

When you're talking to people of color you're observing.
When I talk to, know, move among white people who are defeated and broken I've observed them. And they are convinced they can't succeed at anything.

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 12:15 PM
We may be considering two very different demographics. I’m speaking of a grouping and not a few individuals.

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 12:26 PM
From your experience and what you’ve been able to learn, do black Americans have a disadvantage?

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 02:15 PM
From your experience and what you’ve been able to learn, do black Americans have a disadvantage?

Given your unique definition of "white" define your use of "black" in your question.

Chuck Naill
February 5th, 2022, 02:23 PM
From your experience and what you’ve been able to learn, do black Americans have a disadvantage?

Given your unique definition of "white" define your use of "black" in your question.


How is my definition unique? You can respond or not. It matters little except for forum fodder, but it might help to further the conversation.

If you are willing, you remind me of Glenn Beck.
"The significance was hard to overstate. One of the biggest stars on the most-watched cable news network in the country said the country’s first Black president hated white people. And the response from Fox News was to say it was all perfectly defensible.

Business & Economy: Latest Updates

Are you, in fact Glenn Beck?

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 02:58 PM
Chuck, because you don't remember what you said, and have chosen to go well off topic, let's review you.
“Whiteness” apart from actually physicality, is an acquired mentality." Chuck in Post 124.
"Whites think they can do anything, others don’t." Chuck in Post 125.
Neither of those are the usual definitions of "white." I don't agree with them.
Given your definitions are peculiar to you, I've asked you to define "black" as you used it in Post 132.
Can you do that?

welch
February 5th, 2022, 03:05 PM
I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.

Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction-ebook/dp/B06WV7DHTN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=20CFFLR9RMVNX&keywords=introduction+to+critical+race+theory&qid=1642391852&sprefix=introduction+to+critical+race+theory%2Caps %2C91&sr=8-2

If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1P1V3FS4JH0QK&keywords=white+over+black&qid=1642392063&sprefix=white+over+black%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-2

I have read a few books on the subject (admittedly nothing directly from the woke canon).

How can a system using partiality fix the sin of partiality (which has a real and horrid past)?

There is no "woke canon". Delgado and Stefancic are the main living law professors who discuss Critical Race Theory. It is work in law schools that tries to figure out ways to extend the Civil Rights Movement. What does "partiality" have to do with their arguments? Do you have any idea what "Critical Race Theory" is about? It sounds like you are ignorantly spouting the Party Line that Fox News poured into you last year. They made it up. Go read something.

Here. At the least, stop repeating idiocy. Learn something about slavery and racism, about the slave system, about the coming of the Civil War, about Reconstruction.

- the fundamental work is Winthrop Jordan, "White Over Black". Jordan asked whether English racism caused slavery or whether slavery cause English Americans to develop racist notions about enslaved people. https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-University/dp/0807871419/ref=sr_1_1?crid=35T8LZRSR0L3L&keywords=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black&qid=1642651805&sprefix=winthrop+jordan+white+over+black%2Caps%2C8 3&sr=8-1

- a shorter work: Edmund Morgan, "American Slavery, American Freedom". Morgan was one of the best Colonial historians, from his work on Puritan families to the founding of Rhode Island to the Stamp Act. This book, one of his last, examines how the Virginia colony came to depend on slave labor.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Slavery-Freedom-Colonial-Virginia-ebook/dp/B00CHH2G8S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3SS66QOGEJ5UG&keywords=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+american+f reedom&qid=1642651959&sprefix=edmund+morgan+american+slavery+am%2Caps%2C 97&sr=8-1

- David Brion Davis, "The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Revolution". Part of a three-volume study. https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Slavery-Age-Revolution-1770-1823/dp/0195126718/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2EX00O75HWGD6&keywords=david+brion+davis&qid=1642652307&sprefix=david+brion+davis%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-1

- Christopher L. Brown, "Moral Capital". A study of the abolitionist movement in Great Britain, which examines the interactions between British and Americans in coming to anti-slavery views and abolitionism in the 1770s and 1780s. How did moral outrage become a movement that outlawed the Trans-Atlantic slave trade about 1790, and then abolished slavery in the British Empire in the 1830s?
https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Capital-Foundations-Abolitionism-Published/dp/0807856983/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?crid=HMK9C7XJ2WYQ&keywords=christopher+L.+brown+moral+capital&qid=1642652823&sprefix=christopher+l.+brown+moral+capital%2Caps%2 C65&sr=8-1-fkmr0

- Manisha Sinha, "The Slaves Cause: A History of Abolition". https://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Cause-History-Abolition-ebook/dp/B01B9HJ0DA/ref=sr_1_1?crid=271P28WLET6M8&keywords=manisha+sinha&qid=1642653044&sprefix=Manisha+sin%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1

- Kenneth M. Stampp: "The Peculiar Institution". https://www.amazon.com/Peculiar-Institution-Kenneth-M-Stamp/dp/B009E7Z6DG/ref=sr_1_2?crid=WUUPIUSI59Z5&keywords=kenneth+m.+stamp&qid=1642652438&sprefix=kenneth+m.+stamp%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-2

- Eugene Genovese, "Roll, Jordan, Roll: The Work the Slaves Made". https://www.amazon.com/Roll-Jordan-World-Slaves-Made/dp/0394716523/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KTF0IZX8UBQF&keywords=eugene+genovese%2C+roll%2C+jordan%2C+roll&qid=1642652523&sprefix=Eugene+Genovese%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1

- Eric Foner, "Reconstruction". The standard history of Reconstruction. https://www.amazon.com/Reconstruction-Updated-Unfinished-Revolution-1863-1877/dp/0062354515/ref=sr_1_1?crid=9TJ17BVKBKM9&keywords=eric+foner+reconstruction&qid=1642653173&sprefix=eric+foner+reconstruction%2Caps%2C77&sr=8-1

- See, also, a digital resource called "Slave Voyages". In the last twenty years, researchers have logged more and more of slave-ship voyages by ship name, starting point, stops, number of slaves, landing in North and South America, return voyages, and by date. Something that is handy with a computer and a database.
https://www.slavevoyages.org/

These are just a few of the standard works. They demonstrate that slavery has been intermeshed with America -- culture, society, economy -- from the beginning. Later for a sampling of works on everything from 1877 through 1970.

Coming back to you with a question about the scope of CRT.
Cruising the web there are any number of positions associated with CRT by various folks: punctuality, hard work,plan for the future are white traits.


Then I came across the following post which I can't cut and paste on my IPad. Please take a look at the middle, claiming to be excerpts of CRT curriculum. IF TRUE is this part of what you consider CRT?

https://althouse.blogspot.com/2022/02/in-her-1998-book-how-jews-became-white.html






Kaz, the only mention of Critical Race Theory, at least that I found, is this: "In California’s proposed mandatory class in critical race theory, for example, one original curriculum question was 'How did the Holocaust shift Jewish Americans’ position in American society?' The correct answer was: 'gained conditional whiteness.' Yes, this is the upshot of the mass murder of millions of Jews, according to CRT: it gave them a leg-up in America!" I don't know anything about a "mandatory class in critical race theory". I will look around for details, but, at first, I am always suspicious when someone makes a point without references. It is a bother to do Althouse's research for her. Still...

welch
February 5th, 2022, 03:30 PM
So I looked first at the SF Chronicle, guessing that anything about a state curriculum for teach Critical Race Theory is being covered in one of the two big newspapers. (Assuming the LA Times is the second paper. I have a subscription to the Chron, but not the LAT.

First thing that pops up is this article, which notes efforts by school boards to define Critical Race Theory as any teaching that presents "divisive" material. That would be an example of taking a name, mis-defining content inside that name, and then denouncing the content that you just defined. I call that dishonest. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Study-Battles-over-critical-race-theory-in-16786265.php

Searching through Google, in general, returns this description of an "ethnic studies" partial curriculum. I haven't found anything yet that fits what Althouse claims.

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 03:35 PM
You can go to the Andrew Sullivan sub-stack article she links to.
I've also come across variations of the attached:
https://i0.wp.com/unconstrainedpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/whiteness-chart-p1.png?w=859&ssl=1
which goes beyond what I would think of as a method of studying history.
Appreciate your input.

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 03:37 PM
So I looked first at the SF Chronicle, guessing that anything about a state curriculum for teach Critical Race Theory is being covered in one of the two big newspapers. (Assuming the LA Times is the second paper. I have a subscription to the Chron, but not the LAT.

First thing that pops up is this article, which notes efforts by school boards to define Critical Race Theory as any teaching that presents "divisive" material. That would be an example of taking a name, mis-defining content inside that name, and then denouncing the content that you just defined. I call that dishonest. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Study-Battles-over-critical-race-theory-in-16786265.php

Searching through Google, in general, returns this description of an "ethnic studies" partial curriculum. I haven't found anything yet that fits what Althouse claims.

Yup, a dishonest definition.

welch
February 5th, 2022, 03:54 PM
Here is a sample course outline for California's proposed Ethnic Studies curriculum. I skimmed the first 50, of 300, pages. Much of it seems like an earnest course in denouncing details of current (and recent) practices, like Redlining. None of it seems to consider anything in the "ancient history" that happened before about 1945. I think it is heavy-handed, and incoherent in the way it relates various kinds of oppression to each other, as if they are all the same.

Jewish-Americans are treated as one of the oppressed minorities rather than whatever Althouse is trying to say.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6294293-Ethnic-Studies-Samplecoursemodelsesmc.html

TSherbs
February 5th, 2022, 04:15 PM
CRT is not defined or determined by high school curricula. It is a graduate level research and publication category. In the same way that my high school American Studies curriculum is not definitional nor even necessarily representative of what is being done in graduate level research or publication in the departments of the same name (or collections of publications that inform said departments).

welch
February 5th, 2022, 06:20 PM
You can go to the Andrew Sullivan sub-stack article she links to.
I've also come across variations of the attached:
https://i0.wp.com/unconstrainedpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/whiteness-chart-p1.png?w=859&ssl=1
which goes beyond what I would think of as a method of studying history.
Appreciate your input.


I'd call it junk. A Marxist would call it "idealism", saying that it starts with an idea and then force-fits history into the idea. Weber's bit about The Protestant Etic does not hold up to historical investigation. Further, "work before you play" is an old, old stick by which those on top of a social hierarchy beat down those "unable to delay gratification". All that goes off into several different areas, even including what economists call "take-off", meaning the point at which a society has enough of a surplus that people no longer produce just enough to survive.

"Scientific method" is how all humans solve problems, whether in fancy science or in the technology of building bridges and houses and everything else.

The "family structure" it describes became popular, in TV comedies, in the 1950s. Otherwise people tend to live in extended families.

"Rugged individualism" violates such "Western" ideas as Aristotle's assertion that "by nature, all humans live in society (he says, "polis", but a Greek polis was a social as well as political unit). The American colonists never talked that way. Neither did the Founders and Framers, and it is foreign to Lincoln's "of-by-for" the people. Again, we could talk away into several far corners, but even the promotion of "the rugged individual" is not much earlier than 1890 or maybe 1880.

I took a look for this chart in the National Museum of African-American History and Culture. Could not find it. Sullivan's chart might be there, but maybe you have to know where to look. Here is the Museum's website.

welch
February 5th, 2022, 06:41 PM
CRT is not defined or determined by high school curricula. It is a graduate level research and publication category. In the same way that my high school American Studies curriculum is not definitional nor even necessarily representative of what is being done in graduate level research or publication in the departments of the same name (or collections of publications that inform said departments).

Sure. That's why I suggested that people get a copy of Delgado and Stefancic's "Introduction", although the criticism of "CRT" seems to have very little to do with Critical Race Theory. Americans would do well to read some of the solid accounts of slavery and racism in the British American colonies, and in the US.

The new Governor of Virginia seems to believe that racism vanished when the US passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, or when Barack Obama was elected President, or some undefined moment in the past. Gov. Youngkin has a tip-line where people can report a teacher for teaching something "divisive". As if Virginia did not hold slaves, as if Jamestown did not buy slaves to work tobacco plantations, as if Richmond was not the capital of the Confederacy, as if the Civil War was about anything but slavery, as if Jim Crow was not the law in Virginia. And if mention of that is impolite, and, even "divisive".

Youngkin talks as if Virginians are all children. (And before someone thinks to snipe at me, "a Yankee", for speaking harshly about Virginia, know that my mother's family landed near Mundy Point, VA, about 1630. Both sides of my dads family were counted in the 1790 census in the Shenandoah Valley. I saw desegregation all around Washington, DC, in the late 1950s and early 1960s)

Bold2013
February 5th, 2022, 06:43 PM
So the items on that chart are supposed to be bad?

TSherbs
February 5th, 2022, 06:49 PM
CRT is not defined or determined by high school curricula. It is a graduate level research and publication category. In the same way that my high school American Studies curriculum is not definitional nor even necessarily representative of what is being done in graduate level research or publication in the departments of the same name (or collections of publications that inform said departments).

Sure. That's why I suggested that people get a copy of Delgado and Stefancic's "Introduction", although the criticism of "CRT" seems to have very little to do with Critical Race Theory.
Indeed.


Gov. Youngkin has a tip-line where people can report a teacher for teaching something "divisive". As if Virginia did not hold slaves, as if Jamestown did not buy slaves to work tobacco plantations, as if Richmond was not the capital of the Confederacy, as if the Civil War was about anything but slavery, as if Jim Crow was not the law in Virginia. And if mention of that is impolite, and, even "divisive".
I saw this. Wild! Good thing that this is not law in Maine. They tried, but the bill did not pass. Straight party line vote! In the 1920s we had some KKK cross burnings on the ridge above my town (yes, even here in Maine). I'd get reported for discussing it!

kazoolaw
February 5th, 2022, 08:01 PM
Thanks Welch for the time and effort, and the insights.

TSherbs
February 6th, 2022, 06:27 AM
Trump also believes that his legal cases against him are racially motivated:

https://apnews.com/article/texas-new-york-donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-racial-injustice-11fd8d697e569a75f108f6564761ba64

Chuck Naill
February 6th, 2022, 07:32 AM
"These prosecutors are vicious, horrible people. They’re racists and they’re very sick, they’re mentally sick,” “In reality. They’re not after me, they’re after you.”

And the sad part, there are Americans that believe him.

TSherbs
February 6th, 2022, 04:29 PM
"These prosecutors are vicious, horrible people. They’re racists and they’re very sick, they’re mentally sick,” “In reality. They’re not after me, they’re after you.”

And the sad part, there are Americans that believe him.

Who do you think he meant by "you" when he said "They're not after me, they're after you"? That strikes me as a batshit crazy line. Or just straight up racist (meaning that he is talking not-so-subtle code language to whites).

But maybe he is nuts.

Nuts or racist? What's the over-under?

Chuck Naill
February 7th, 2022, 05:38 AM
"These prosecutors are vicious, horrible people. They’re racists and they’re very sick, they’re mentally sick,” “In reality. They’re not after me, they’re after you.”

And the sad part, there are Americans that believe him.

Who do you think he meant by "you" when he said "They're not after me, they're after you"? That strikes me as a batshit crazy line. Or just straight up racist (meaning that he is talking not-so-subtle code language to whites).

But maybe he is nuts.

Nuts or racist? What's the over-under?

He is a demagogue or "a political leader who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument". This is a perfect example of how Trump influences. Bannon does the same. The audience doesn't realize what happening. They never ask for evidence anyone is coming after them.

Actually, if you listen to his January 6 2020 speech, it was a speech from a demagogue. Look what happened.

I think Trump will do anything for power. This makes him dangerous. Fortunately, we are beginning to see Republicans break with Trump.

The Brooks op-ed I posted shows Evangelicals finally speaking out against Trump and it is based on the same things I have been saying since 2016. The Access Hollywood get mentioned often.

As you know Fauci is a popular target for some Republicans. This is from an op-ed today and show that demagoguery is how politicians are adopting Trumpistic tactics.
"Here in Ohio, Ms. Timken, a Harvard graduate and former chairwoman of the Ohio Republican Party who promises to “advance the Trump agenda without fear or hesitation,” is doing just that. Her ad shows a parent struggling to put a mask on a screaming toddler, which she brands “child abuse.” So, instead of an attempt to be reasonable about a highly contagious virus, the candidate appeals to the frustration parents are experiencing. Sure its difficult and no dislikes to wear a mask, but it is a reasonable practice and an unselfish sacrifice that just might save someone life.

Chip
February 8th, 2022, 01:37 PM
Nuts or racist?

Is there a sane form of racism?

Chuck Naill
February 8th, 2022, 01:48 PM
People see him for himself.

Chuck Naill
February 8th, 2022, 01:50 PM
His appeal is waning.

TSherbs
February 8th, 2022, 02:35 PM
Nuts or racist?

Is there a sane form of racism?

I get your point, but the answer is yes: sane, yes. valid, no.

TSherbs
February 8th, 2022, 02:36 PM
His appeal is waning.

I thought that in 2015.

Chuck Naill
February 8th, 2022, 04:47 PM
McConnell pushing back is a signal Trump's popularity is waning. McConnell wouldn't risk it otherwise. Some in the base probably realize Trump's true motive, himself. Of course those of paying attention knew it in 2000.

TSherbs
February 8th, 2022, 05:13 PM
McConnell pushing back is a signal Trump's popularity is waning. McConnell wouldn't risk it otherwise. Some in the base probably realize Trump's true motive, himself. Of course those of paying attention knew it in 2000.
I understand. I've just learned never to count the pig out.

Chip
February 9th, 2022, 12:25 PM
Maybe a swerve. He was laying pretty low for a few months, squatting at Mar-A-Lago with the blinds drawn. Here's a 2020 photo, wrinkles and all:

https://i.imgur.com/NzNZ6rP.jpg

Here's a recent pic from a rally.

https://i.imgur.com/mSMW1xa.jpg

Look how his eyes slant up at the corners. Botox? Cosmetic surgery?

Chuck Naill
February 11th, 2022, 05:33 AM
Now that Trump has injected himself into the Canadian revolt, can you here the same rhetoric used on 1/6/21? Just another reason he should have been impeached.

Chuck Naill
February 11th, 2022, 07:33 AM
Crooked as a dog hind leg,
"And while he was president, staff in the White House residence periodically discovered wads of printed paper clogging a toilet — leading them to believe that Mr. Trump had attempted to flush documents, according to people familiar with the situation. He was known to do the same on foreign trips, the people said. (Those incidents are recounted in a forthcoming book, “Confidence Man,” written by a New York Times reporter, about Mr. Trump and his presidency.)"

Chuck Naill
February 11th, 2022, 10:50 AM
Judge freezes trucker protester funds . 👍👍👍

TSherbs
February 15th, 2022, 01:39 PM
Whatever Trump thinks he "lost," it seems clear that he has just lost his accounting firm...

Chip
February 15th, 2022, 10:47 PM
Wonder if Maria Bartiromo will volunteer?

TSherbs
February 16th, 2022, 04:29 AM
???

Bold2013
February 16th, 2022, 07:24 AM
Judge freezes trucker protester funds . 👍👍👍

Why do you want to suppress these patriots?

Chuck Naill
February 16th, 2022, 02:01 PM
I guess I’d have to quote Sam Johnson, “patriotism is the last refuge for a scoundrel “.

Chip
February 16th, 2022, 05:11 PM
I guess I’d have to quote Sam Johnson, “patriotism is the last refuge for a scoundrel “.

Jasus! And I was thinking that it must be religion.

Chuck Naill
February 17th, 2022, 05:54 AM
A new definition of patriotism for one member here.
" The protests began with some truckers objecting to a requirement that they be vaccinated if they cross from the United States into Canada. With organizing help from right-wing activists, they ballooned into a broader movement opposed to an array of pandemic measures and to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau generally.

Truckers and their supporters blocked key border crossings and other routes, impeding commerce and idling automakers’ plants and they blockaded streets in Ottawa, the capital, creating a round-the-clock cacophony there.

Most of the protests have been peaceful, but on Tuesday the police charged four people with conspiring to murder police officers, part of a group of 13 people charged with planning a violent response if the police tried to break up the blockade of a border crossing between Alberta and Montana at the Canadian village of Coutts."

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/17/world/canada-protests-news

However, perhaps this is more "legitimate political discourse" than patriotism.

Bold2013
February 17th, 2022, 06:57 AM
Seems like the Canadian tea party to me

Chuck Naill
February 17th, 2022, 07:31 AM
I suspect if the 24/7 cacophony was outside your front door, you'd wish it was a tea party...LOL!!

I realize your just trolling, but that was very funny.

Chip
February 18th, 2022, 01:16 PM
The January 6 insurrection, the Canadian trucker mess, and similar populist uprisings have me thinking about the start of the Crusades.

Immediately after Pope Urban's proclamation of the first crusade, a holy war to capture Christian shrines under Muslim rule, the French priest Peter the Hermit led thousands of mostly poor Christians out of Europe in what became known as the People's Crusade. Basically an unruly mob, they lacked the support, supplies, and strategy to engage in any serious way in battle.

According to Anna Komnene's Alexiad, Peter attempted a pilgrimage to Jerusalem before 1096, but was prevented by the Seljuk Turks from reaching his goal and was reportedly mistreated. This caused him to preach inflammatory statements about the Turks to inflame Christians. However, doubts remain whether he ever made such a journey.

Sources differ as to whether he was present at Pope Urban II's famous Council of Clermont in 1095. It is certain that he was one of the preachers of the crusade in France afterward, and his own experience may have helped to give fire to the Crusading cause. Tradition in Huy holds that he was there when the crusade was announced and he began his preaching at once. He soon leapt into fame as an emotional revivalist, and the vast majority of sources and historians agree that thousands of peasants eagerly took the cross at his bidding.

https://i.imgur.com/OuQd44p.jpg

This was known as the Crusade of the Paupers. Peter organized and guided the paupers as a spiritually purified and holy group of pilgrims who would, supposedly, be protected by the Holy Ghost. In transit through Germany, the mob pillaged food supplies and spawned German bands who slaughtered Jewish communities in what became known as the Rhineland massacres. They were destroyed in 1096 when the main body of Crusaders was annihilated at the battle of Civetot.

Chuck Naill
February 18th, 2022, 03:06 PM
The irony is some see them as patriots and some as Crusaders. I guess that's where the rub lies.

"P.J. wasn’t the only conservative pundit to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016, but he didn’t try to spray Febreze on his ballot. He voted with clothespin firmly affixed to his nose. Mrs. Clinton, he said, was wrong “about absolutely everything,” except in one regard: She wasn’t Donald Trump. “Politics,” as he’d written, “is a necessary evil, or a necessary annoyance, or a necessary conundrum. ”https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/18/opinion/christopher-buckley-pj-orourke.html

TSherbs
February 18th, 2022, 07:19 PM
The trucker bullshit is stupid. I can barely bring myself to read about it. I just had dinner with. Canadian. She's embarrassed for her country. I told her it seems the idiocy moved north across the border.

Chuck Naill
February 19th, 2022, 08:26 AM
Of course there is a vocal minority that gets the most attention in these cases. For me it does not describe the majority.

Chip
February 19th, 2022, 01:19 PM
What I notice is that the so-called popular movement has been infiltrated by far-right militia types who don't drive trucks. But they do have plans to kill police and other officials, with several caches of illegal weapons seized and charges filed.

TSherbs
February 19th, 2022, 06:35 PM
Fucking crazies. I'm telling you, read "The Day of the Locust," by Nathanael West.

Chip
February 20th, 2022, 10:40 PM
We have our own set of loonies, who soak up tax dollars and ride in the back of limousines.


https://twitter.com/i/status/1492297590259527681

Mess up the Superbowl? The fans would rip them to shreds.

Chuck Naill
February 23rd, 2022, 06:00 AM
While the crazies are storming the capital and the "truckers" are storming Canada, other more important things are going on in the world. As long as people get their panties in a wad over vaccines and masks, the autocrats are free to roam, "seeking someone to devour".

Chuck Naill
February 28th, 2022, 05:53 AM
Given his actions while a part of the Trump administration, I have mixed feelings about William Barr, but his new book is out and worth noting.

"The man he served between 2019 and 2020, Barr writes, has “shown he has neither the temperament nor persuasive powers to provide the kind of positive leadership that is needed”.

Trump, Barr says, has surrounded himself with “sycophants” and “whack jobs from outside the government, who fed him a steady diet of comforting but unsupported conspiracy theories”.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/feb/28/william-barr-book-trump-electoral-fraud-lie-michael-flynn-russia

Of course for us who have been following Trump, this is not news. However, it may cause some Trumpians to change brands.

Chip
March 4th, 2022, 04:27 PM
Too bad he couldn't tell the truth when it mattered.

https://i.imgur.com/OZzG69k.jpg

His waffling on the Mueller report, giving cover to Trump, was shameless, gutless, and utterly contemptible.

Empty_of_Clouds
March 4th, 2022, 05:20 PM
Given his actions while a part of the Trump administration, I have mixed feelings about William Barr, but his new book is out and worth noting.

"The man he served between 2019 and 2020, Barr writes, has “shown he has neither the temperament nor persuasive powers to provide the kind of positive leadership that is needed”.

Trump, Barr says, has surrounded himself with “sycophants” and “whack jobs from outside the government, who fed him a steady diet of comforting but unsupported conspiracy theories”.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/feb/28/william-barr-book-trump-electoral-fraud-lie-michael-flynn-russia

Of course for us who have been following Trump, this is not news. However, it may cause some Trumpians to change brands.


While Trump and various loud sycophants have access to the megaphones of the mediaTM (Internet, TV 'News' channels etc) then Thomas' Law will no doubt remain a powerful factor.

TSherbs
March 4th, 2022, 07:28 PM
Too bad he couldn't tell the truth when it mattered.

https://i.imgur.com/OZzG69k.jpg

His waffling on the Mueller report, giving cover to Trump, was shameless, gutless, and utterly contemptible.

word

Chuck Naill
March 5th, 2022, 06:01 AM
"ONE DAMN THING AFTER ANOTHER
Memoirs of an Attorney General
By William P. Barr

It’s a rare Washington memoir that makes you gasp in the very second sentence. Here’s the first sentence from William P. Barr’s “One Damn Thing After Another,” an account of his two turns as attorney general: “The first day of December 2020, almost a month after the presidential election, was gray and rainy.” Indeed it was. Here’s the second: “That afternoon, the president, struggling to come to terms with the election result, had heard I was at the White House. …” Uh, “struggling to come to terms with”? Not exactly. How about “struggling to overturn the election he just lost” or “struggling to subvert the will of the voters”? Maybe “struggling to undermine American democracy.”

"Barr had just told a reporter that the Justice Department had “not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election.” This enraged the president. “You must hate Trump,” Trump told Barr. “You would only do this if you hate Trump.” But Barr stood his ground. He repeated that his team had found no fraud in the election results. "

"As Barr puts it, “In the final months of his administration, Trump cared only about one thing: himself. Country and principle took second place.” For Barr, it was as if this great president experienced a sudden personality transplant. “After the election,” Barr writes, “he was beyond restraint. He would only listen to a few sycophants who told him what he wanted to hear. Reasoning with him was hopeless.”


“‘No, Mr. President, I don’t hate you,’ I said. ‘You know I sacrificed a lot personally to come in to help you when I thought you were being wronged.’” "This, as the rest of the book makes clear, is the real reason Barr came out of a comfortable retirement in early 2019 to serve as Jeff Sessions’s successor as attorney general. Barr — who thought Trump was “being wronged” by the investigation into the 2016 election led by Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel — wanted to come to Trump’s defense"

"Barr portrays Mueller, a former colleague and friend from their service in the George H W. Bush administration, as a feeble old man pushed around by liberals on his staff. To thwart them, Barr took extraordinary steps to trash Mueller’s work. On the eve of the sentencing of Roger Stone, Trump’s longtime political adviser, for obstruction of justice, Barr overruled the prosecutors and asked for a lighter sentence: “While he should not be treated any better than others because he was an associate of the president’s, he also should not be treated much worse than others.” In fact, Stone was being sentenced pursuant to guidelines that apply in all cases, but in this one and only instance, Barr decided to intervene."


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/books/review/william-p-barr-one-damned-thing-after-another.html


I have read Trump's niece's book, Bolton's book, and Woodward. These provide an inside look into the Trump presidency. There has yet to be someone with first hand knowledge that has said anything different from what you would expect from Trump. Barr's book appears to be no different. I'll see if I can reserve it from the library. However, Barr is self vindicating himself apparently.

TSherbs
March 5th, 2022, 07:25 AM
For the last 5 years, what we've come to see is that nearly all of the inside information on Trump and his actions and character were accurate. He's been the same man for decades. And still is. As had been said, just ask New Yorkers what kind of person he is. Their "relationship" goes way back. Trump has been a selfish, sexist, racist egotist for decades. A real pig of a person.

dneal
March 5th, 2022, 07:38 AM
3 years and 30 million dollars turned up nothing on Trump and “Russia Collusion”, but the conspiracy theories still abound. Now MAGA hat wearing grandmothers and face-painted “shamans” are “insurrectionists” who threatened to usurp democracy.

Put down the kool aide, Martha. You’ve had too much.

Chuck Naill
March 5th, 2022, 07:48 AM
For the last 5 years, what we've come to see is that nearly all of the inside information on Trump and his actions and character were accurate. He's been the same man for decades. And still is. As had been said, just ask New Yorkers what kind of person he is. Their "relationship" goes way back. Trump has been a selfish, sexist, racist egotist for decades. A real pig of a person.

Were you as aware of Trump before he ran for public office? I only watched The Apprentice one time. I figured no one could be that cruel, who would actually enjoy firing someone. I had hoped he was just after ratings. Then I learned he is actually that way.

I began to study his history, how he would come to Studio 54 and watch models having sex. For me, his interview where he tried to make McCain look small is all it took.

I feel sorry for the Trumpians here. He would abuse them and their wives and daughters. They would storm the capital. And finally, they will do jail time as a payment for supporting him.

TSherbs
March 5th, 2022, 08:49 AM
Were you as aware of Trump before he ran for public office?

Not *as* aware, but yes, somewhat. I followed his Central Park Five racist antics in the news. I also followed the rise and fall of his Atlantic City casino because I lived in PA and visited the Jersey shore often. The news coverage then went back over lawsuits against him for discrimination practices and various lawsuits against him for non-payment and breach of contract. The guy is a douche, from several angles of inquiry. And yes, I knew much of this before he ran for office. I was convinced that the GOP, which had stood on "family values" moral principles for decades would never nominate Trump, since he was the antithesis of this (and everybody knows it). I was wildly wrong.

Chuck Naill
March 5th, 2022, 10:11 AM
Were you as aware of Trump before he ran for public office?

Not *as* aware, but yes, somewhat. I followed his Central Park Five racist antics in the news. I also followed the rise and fall of his Atlantic City casino because I lived in PA and visited the Jersey shore often. The news coverage then went back over lawsuits against him for discrimination practices and various lawsuits against him for non-payment and breach of contract. The guy is a douche, from several angles of inquiry. And yes, I knew much of this before he ran for office. I was convinced that the GOP, which had stood on "family values" moral principles for decades would never nominate Trump, since he was the antithesis of this (and everybody knows it). I was wildly wrong.

His Central Park Five was significant. It pointed to his fallacy of ignorance. I just hope we can convince enough to not vote for him ever again.

Chuck Naill
March 5th, 2022, 10:31 AM
From Maureen Dowd,
"Trump became a blackguard. Zelensky donned a white hat. Trump tried to overturn American democracy. Zelensky tried to save Ukrainian democracy.

Trump was always a faux tough guy who bragged about grabbing women and loved all things military except serving in it. Cadet Bone Spurs. Courage was an alien concept to this spoiled brat; he has always been a bully who let other people do the fighting for him.

He sicced a mob on the Capitol, while he went back to the comfort of the White House to watch his attempted coup play out on TV and to gloat about the frightened, barricaded lawmakers and his own trapped vice president."

"The claim by Trump and his sycophants that his relationship with Putin had kept Russia out of Ukraine is ludicrous. He was Putin’s poodle and Putin would have rolled over him; he was biding his time as Trump weakened NATO.

Trump praised Putin for an act of “genius” even as the rest of the world was watching in horror as the mad Russian president prepared to order the bloody march through Ukraine and suffocated the remnants of a free press in Moscow."

TSherbs
March 5th, 2022, 10:32 AM
How's that social app doing?

oh....

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/03/05/truth-social-emptiness-donald-trump-00014355

Chuck Naill
March 5th, 2022, 10:38 AM
Dennis Miller once opined that to say Obama was an empty shirt is doing a disservice to a coat hanger. Then came Trump which provide the empty coat hanger a whole new definition. Thanks Dennis.

Chuck Naill
March 5th, 2022, 10:39 AM
How's that social app doing?

oh....

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/03/05/truth-social-emptiness-donald-trump-00014355

The app's success is directly proportional to the weakness in the US educational system

Chuck Naill
March 5th, 2022, 10:44 AM
By standing up to the Evil Empire, Zelensky could earn comparisons to another performer turned pol, and that should grate on Trump as much as having his vice president turn on him.

Ronald Reagan helped lift the Iron Curtain. Zelensky is trying his best to stop it from slamming down again."

TSherbs
March 5th, 2022, 11:28 AM
How's that social app doing?

oh....

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/03/05/truth-social-emptiness-donald-trump-00014355

The app's success is directly proportional to the weakness in the US educational system

No. Come on, Chuck.

Chuck Naill
March 5th, 2022, 11:44 AM
How's that social app doing?

oh....

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/03/05/truth-social-emptiness-donald-trump-00014355

The app's success is directly proportional to the weakness in the US educational system

No. Come on, Chuck.

Yes, had a dude celebrate Texas independence the other day on a different forum.

Chip
March 5th, 2022, 11:00 PM
3 years and 30 million dollars turned up nothing on Trump and “Russia Collusion”.

Nothing? That's a lie. They turned up quite a lot, and Barr (and the US Senate Republicans) tried to bury it.

Chuck Naill
March 6th, 2022, 05:28 AM
Yes, the Mueller investigation, just like the two impeachments produced more than enough to convict Trump. How he escaped the second impeachment is the Republicans fault, except for three if I remember.

TSherbs
March 6th, 2022, 05:46 AM
3 years and 30 million dollars turned up nothing on Trump and “Russia Collusion”.

Nothing? That's a lie. They turned up quite a lot, and Barr (and the US Senate Republicans) tried to bury it.

from Heather Cox Richardson, this morning:


>>>In an appearance on Newsmax, Trump’s secretary of state John Bolton pushed back when the host suggested that the Trump administration was “pretty tough on Russia, in a lot of ways.” Bolton said that Trump “barely knew where Ukraine was” and repeatedly complained about Russian sanctions. Bolton said Trump should have sanctioned the Nord Stream 2 pipeline between Russia and Germany, rather than letting it proceed, and concluded: “It’s just not accurate to say that Trump's behavior somehow deterred the Russians.”

Still, the sudden attempt of the Republicans to rewrite history cannot erase the fact that every Republican in the House of Representatives voted against impeaching Trump when he withheld $391 million in aid for Ukraine that Congress had appropriated, offering to release it only on the condition that President Zelensky announced an investigation into Hunter Biden. That is, they were willing to look the other way as Trump weakened Ukraine in an attempt to rig the 2020 election by creating a scandal he hoped would sink his chief opponent.

Democrats supported impeachment, though, and the case went to the Senate to be tried. And there, every single Republican senator except Senator Mitt Romney (R-UT), who voted to convict him for abuse of power, acquitted Trump of the charges stemming from his attempt to hamstring Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression.<<<

more of the orange baby's legacy...

dneal
March 6th, 2022, 05:58 AM
3 years and 30 million dollars turned up nothing on Trump and “Russia Collusion”.

Nothing? That's a lie. They turned up quite a lot, and Barr (and the US Senate Republicans) tried to bury it.

Some Russians charged with hacking the DNC server? Where's the Trump connection?
Michael Cohen paid Stormy Daniels some money? Uh, what does that have to do with Russia Collusion?
Paul Manafort's tax evasion? Doesn't look like Trump colluding with Russia to me.
Roger Stone "lying to congress"? Still doesn't look like Russia Collusion.

So yeah, 3 years and $30 million dollars - with a grand jury impaneled to investigate "Russia Collusion" turned up no Russia Collusion. Nothing. "Trump colluded with Russia to steal the 2016 election" is the lie.

All we got out of the "Russia Collusion" investigation is an IG investigation into Crossfire Hurricane and Durham's ongoing investigation.

Chuck Naill
March 6th, 2022, 06:14 AM
The key findings of the investigation are outlined below. Make no mistake in believing Trump was exonerated.


https://www.acslaw.org/projects/the-presidential-investigation-education-project/other-resources/key-findings-of-the-mueller-report/


When Putin used con artist to describe the US, who could he have been thinking about? We can only imagine what would be happening had Trump be re-elected. We know that a guy that lives in a silo would not be able to have brought Western Europe together, or kept them briefed on developments.

dneal
March 6th, 2022, 06:23 AM
Make no mistake in believing Trump was exonerated.

Don't need to be exonerated. In the U.S. you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. 3 years and 30million dollars turned up no proof.

Chuck Naill
March 6th, 2022, 06:32 AM
Make no mistake in believing Trump was exonerated.

Don't need to be exonerated. In the U.S. you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. 3 years and 30million dollars turned up no proof.

You and I independently, and perhaps at times together, must come to our own conclusions regarding Trump, @dneal. I have no doubt he should have been impeached and especially for his part in trying to overturn the will of the people, inciting a riot, and the resulting deaths. If we had done the same, we would already be in prison.

I am very glad to never have voted for Trump. You and I have that in common.

dneal
March 6th, 2022, 06:39 AM
I'm not talking about my conclusions. I'm talking about whether or not the Muller investigation was successful. It was supposed to look at the accusations that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election. 3 years and 30 million dollars resulted in nothing that supported the accusations. How many people were indicted and convicted of colluding with Russia with regard to the 2016 election?

Does Hillary really believe she lost? Did "Russia Collusion" determine the 2016 election? Or are those just conspiracy theories?

Chuck Naill
March 6th, 2022, 07:07 AM
The Mueller investigation was successful in discovery, not prosecution (for whatever reason). Barr apparently chose to focus on Trump being mistreated, again, for whatever reason.

Had you read the link I provided, you would have seen the result.

I have only had one occasion to litigate. Discovery does not result in an indictment, necessarily.

TSherbs
March 6th, 2022, 07:22 AM
He's just baiting you, Chuck. He knows that successful impeachment is not the only purpose ("result") of an investigation. There's no need for you to state the obvious. That's what someone who is baiting you wants you to do: waste your time stating the obvious, from a defensive posture.

Chuck Naill
March 6th, 2022, 07:40 AM
Okay, Ted.

dneal
March 6th, 2022, 07:44 AM
No, I’m not baiting anyone. I’m pointing out the ridiculousness of a pervasive narrative. There’s more evidence (albeit circumstantial) of 2020 election fraud than there is “Russia Collusion”, and many of you happily mock one and nod knowingly at the other; and the cognitive disconnect doesn’t seem to occur to you. I’m not invested in either narrative. I’m astounded at the delusion.

Chuck Naill
March 6th, 2022, 08:17 AM
We all know you don't vote, but we also realize you're on Trumps narrative. There is something about a draft dodger, womanizer, cheater, blow hard that resonates.

The same with all other topics. For example, you run around whining about the Ukrainian deaths and care nothing for the 800K who have died of Covid. Both are important, but dead is dead. If 800K die in Ukraine, is will not be more significant than those dying of a virus. Dead is dead.

Your misinformation may have resulted in dead humans. Folks don't think about it when they blab supporting Trump, attacking Fauci, recommending Ivermectin. I am not saying you are a dumb ass, but you resemble one. Perhaps you have PTSD and can't help it. Maybe you're just a fucking troll.

For me, they should fry Putin and Trump together for the deaths they have caused.

dneal
March 6th, 2022, 09:03 AM
We all know you don't vote, but we also realize you're on Trumps narrative. There is something about a draft dodger, womanizer, cheater, blow hard that resonates.

The same with all other topics. For example, you run around whining about the Ukrainian deaths and care nothing for the 800K who have died of Covid. Both are important, but dead is dead. If 800K die in Ukraine, is will not be more significant than those dying of a virus. Dead is dead.

Your misinformation may have resulted in dead humans. Folks don't think about it when they blab supporting Trump, attacking Fauci, recommending Ivermectin. I am not saying you are a dumb ass, but you resemble one. Perhaps you have PTSD and can't help it. Maybe you're just a fucking troll.

For me, they should fry Putin and Trump together for the deaths they have caused.

Hmmm…


Ad hominem exchanges begin with someone who has run out of ammunition.

Out of ammo, Chuck?

Maybe kazoolaw is more prescient than we know.




This is Chuck.
When the topic is too tough for him to understand Chuck goes inanely off-topic.
Chuck thinks his distraction prevents you from noticing his inability to engage in genuine discussion.
Don't be Chuck.

Chuck Naill
March 6th, 2022, 09:21 AM
Yes, don't be a fucking Chuck. Be the @dneal. :crazy:

dneal
March 6th, 2022, 09:55 AM
Yes, don't be a fucking Chuck. Be the @dneal. :crazy:

Triggered again.

Chuck Naill
March 6th, 2022, 09:57 AM
Yes, don't be a fucking Chuck. Be the @dneal. :crazy:

Triggered again.

Thank U lol!!!

Bold2013
March 31st, 2022, 08:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxnTKmc-lLuLKTUfmwB07pEXDy4nxTHiGS

Bold2013
March 31st, 2022, 08:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxnTKmc-lLuLKTUfmwB07pEXDy4nxTHiGS

Babylon Bee spoof on trump and Thomas

Chip
March 31st, 2022, 11:22 PM
He's just baiting you, Chuck. He knows that successful impeachment is not the only purpose ("result") of an investigation. There's no need for you to state the obvious. That's what someone who is baiting you wants you to do: waste your time stating the obvious, from a defensive posture.

Is he a master baiter?

Or just a run-of-the-mill wanker? :pound:

Chuck Naill
April 1st, 2022, 06:59 AM
As we know, Trump continues to say he won the election. The minority party continues to hold sway over the majority. The minority in Florida have received a setback.
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/march-31-2022?r=87nb3&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Chip
April 1st, 2022, 01:40 PM
https://i.imgur.com/XKuASYj.jpg

Chuck Naill
April 14th, 2022, 01:41 PM
I was thinking if he sent me some money, I would support him…..

Chip
April 14th, 2022, 05:01 PM
Eat your peas, Donny.

https://i.imgur.com/gUtUKG1.jpg

TSherbs
April 21st, 2022, 05:18 PM
Trump lost the 2020 election...and he just lost this legal battle with Omarosa, to the tune of $1.3 million in legal fees:

MSNBC: Team Trump’s latest loss in a non-disclosure case is costly.
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/team-trumps-latest-loss-non-disclosure-case-costly-rcna25341

Chuck Naill
April 22nd, 2022, 06:02 AM
Trump lost the 2020 election...and he just lost this legal battle with Omarosa, to the tune of $1.3 million in legal fees:

MSNBC: Team Trump’s latest loss in a non-disclosure case is costly.
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/team-trumps-latest-loss-non-disclosure-case-costly-rcna25341


The article linked a case against Mary Trump, Trump's niece. I bought the book and she said he had cheated on his SAT exam. The Trump family lost that suit as well.

The defenders of Trump have to overlook not only these cases, but that his actions did exist that would result in the need to silence the people who came in contact with the man.

TSherbs
April 22nd, 2022, 07:58 AM
Trump lost the 2020 election...and he just lost this legal battle with Omarosa, to the tune of $1.3 million in legal fees:

MSNBC: Team Trump’s latest loss in a non-disclosure case is costly.
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/team-trumps-latest-loss-non-disclosure-case-costly-rcna25341


The article linked a case against Mary Trump, Trump's niece. I bought the book and she said he had cheated on his SAT exam. The Trump family lost that suit as well.

The defenders of Trump have to overlook not only these cases, but that his actions did exist that would result in the need to silence the people who came in contact with the man.

He's pretty much been a scumbag, through and through.

He doesn't even seem to work on redemption or good work or good faith. I don't think that he believes in these things.

Yes, the article notes that he is losing most of these non-disclosure suits. Then he had to pay all the legal fees. I wonder if he uses his PAC money for that.

Chuck Naill
April 22nd, 2022, 09:33 AM
Of course he’s using the contributions of his base. He’s found a new tax free income source.

Chip
April 22nd, 2022, 11:02 PM
The term of art (among the pros) is the Long Con.

TSherbs
April 25th, 2022, 05:16 PM
Oops, he's losing this battle too...
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-held-in-contempt-in-ny-legal-fight-409f6571e9d74c76055c8e0a57249163

Empty_of_Clouds
April 25th, 2022, 08:27 PM
I was just reading an article at Huff Post on the message exchanges of Mark Meadows and the following message was apparently sent by MTG to Meadows:

"Mark we don’t think these attackers are our people. We think they are Antifa. Dressed like Trump supporters,” she wrote."

I'm curious as to what clothes are specific to Trump supporters (other than campaign hats and badges).

Chuck Naill
April 26th, 2022, 07:36 AM
A true Trumper will being wearing this.

Chuck Naill
April 26th, 2022, 08:59 AM
There is a message I keep hearing. Trump supporters are suggesting that they are fighting against those who would destroy US democracy while, in plain sight, they are the ones inciting violence and trying to overturn the will of the American electorate.

Chuck Naill
April 26th, 2022, 01:29 PM
I’m reading more about MOC who planned the mobs insurrectionist riot. Did they really believe the republic was in peril? I’m more Inclined these emboldened ones simply didn’t care and thought they’d never get caught.

TSherbs
April 26th, 2022, 02:20 PM
I’m reading more about MOC who planned the mobs insurrectionist riot. Did they really believe the republic was in peril? I’m more Inclined these emboldened ones simply didn’t care and thought they’d never get caught.

Some of them did believe the falsehoods in the rhetoric. A strange, delusional mania was being passed around the internet and echoed by the then-President and several of his staff and supporters. Some still believe it despite that the ideas have been discredited.

Delusions can persist despite reality. I guess that is part of the definition of delusion.

Chuck Naill
April 26th, 2022, 03:54 PM
I don’t but they were deluded. Congress has access to the best information.

Chuck Naill
April 26th, 2022, 03:55 PM
Buy

TSherbs
July 5th, 2022, 05:55 AM
The Dominion suit(s) are moving forward: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/jul/04/fox-oan-newsmax-lawsuits-election-fraud-claims

I hope that they win and extract billions from these lying assholes. That only just begins to pay for the damage that their election lies have caused to the idea of voting and democracy in America.