"How Does that Make You Feel"

[Chuck Naill]

I often watch the PBS series, Finding Your Roots". Often Henry Louis Gates will ask a white guest upon discovering their ancestors owned people, "how does that make you feel". That's when I imagine what would I say. I am sure the white guest feels the need to say slavery was wrong. However. beyond that how would you respond?

[TSherbs]

I am a descendant of slave owners from the eastern shore of Chesapeake Bay. I feel guilty, since I have clearly inherited the privileged status and various benefits (indirectly) of this abusive historical arrangement. I feel obligated to be conscious of this advantage, this burden, and the responsibility to be more aware and open to a more just relationship between all of the forms of legacy from that centuries-long scourge.

[Chip]

Several of my forebears lived in Virginia. Without knowing for certain, I'd guess that some kept slaves.

Here's an old photo of a horse and groom:

https://i.imgur.com/9nq8L1t.jpg

However, since the ancestor was a general in the Union Army, and the groom is wearing a garrison cap, I'd reckon he wasn't enslaved right then.

[Bold2013]

I don’t feel guilty for the sins of others, but I do acknowledge their sins have consequences.

Every privilege I have came from God. I am thankful for it and will use it to the best of my ability for His glory.

My parents came from communist Poland but I’m sure between them and Noah some slave owning existed.

[TSherbs]

I don’t feel guilty for the sins of others, but I do acknowledge their sins have consequences.

Every privilege I have came from God. I am thankful for it and will use it to the best of my ability for His glory.

My parents came from communist Poland but I’m sure between them and Noah some slave owning existed.

I meant to ask you, do you believe in a literal Flood that covered the earth and a literal ark that carried two of every animal?

[Bold2013]

I believe that Genesis was written as a historic narrative. Actual people and actual flood. Specific ark dimensions.

And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female… according to its kind.

[Chuck Naill]

Why do you choose to believe?

Do you question?

[Bold2013]

I think the Bible is historically reliable and supernatural.

Of course. That is why I continue to read and study.

[Chuck Naill]

I think the Bible is historically reliable and supernatural.

Of course. That is why I continue to read and study.

I don't fault you for believing what you choose. Just don't force others to believe what you choose.

[Bold2013]

Well the Bible says God is the one that causes people to believe (it would be impossible for me to force anyone). People just need a little truth in their lives and I can help point them in the right direction.

[Chuck Naill]

Well the Bible says God is the one that causes people to believe (it would be impossible for me to force anyone). People just need a little truth in their lives and I can help point them in the right direction.

Was the Samaritan, the thief on the cross, or the woman caught having intercourse, chosen by God? I recommend getting rid of Calvin and just allowing the text, parts of the text, speak.

BTW, are you a four or five point Calvinist?

[Bold2013]

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

[Bold2013]

What is so wrong with God choosing?

[Chuck Naill]

How do you know he does?

[TSherbs]

What is so wrong with God choosing?

What can be wrong with any faith is that there is no God and the faith is therefore deceived and thus all the efforts (which include severe judgment and cruelty) to do what is thought to be "God's will" in fact is nothing more than self-righteous delusion.

[Chuck Naill]

The danger is not God choosing, but people deciding what God chose.

[Bold2013]

The danger is not God choosing, but people deciding what God chose.

Agreed. The danger is with ourselves.

[Chuck Naill]

I didn’t say that, bold. You’re like Kazoo, reading is not your forte.

Forest Gump when asked if he had found Jesus. He said, I didn’t know we were supposed to be looking for him sir!

[Bold2013]

Chuck we agree. No one seeks after God

Romans 3

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

[Lloyd]

God chose me to be a disbeliever and I accepted the role.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[TSherbs]

I didn’t say that, bold. You’re like Kazoo, reading is not your forte.


Bold's reading is fine. It's the bending of meaning always to support a literal interpretation of the Bible that gets in the way of communication/exchange. He's/She's been pretty open about this.

[TSherbs]

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

This is what I meant in my earlier post about what can be "wrong":

Why live one's life crippled by fear a of reprisal from an angry, vindictive monster in the closet watching over our every move, when there may be no monsters in closets?

[Chuck Naill]

The danger is not God choosing, but people deciding what God chose.

Agreed. The danger is with ourselves.

I don't think it is about us being bad. There is too much of those kinds of thoughts. Total depravity is a Calvinistic idea that has gotten too much press. Sure, we are self absorbed, but Jesus said to love others as you love yourself. Self love is obviously natural and Jesus used it as a way to teach us how to love others.

When I was involved with Pentecostals and Charismatics, there was a habit of constantly giving prophetic messages that were considered a word from the Lord. This is what I had in mind with my comment regarding deciding.

You've probably heard the idea that there is no private interpretation, but it happens all the time and usually leads to harm and danger. For example, there were several who gave prophetic messages in support that God had chosen Trump. This led to believers having a reason to support a person who obviously had never suggested he did or attempting to walk in a way consistent with the teachings of Jesus, actually the opposite.

The early Christians did not have the scriptures. There was not such thing as a bible until the printing press, and the Roman Catholic Church tried to keep the scriptures away from the lay person, and many perhaps could not read. However, during the time it was the HS that allowed the small sect to survive. Learning to reply upon the HS to remind and direct is an essential part of discipleship.

I have come to realize there is much more freedom in discipleship than most believers experience. The church would benefit from getting rid of the infrastructure and learning to develop a quite and simple relationship with Jesus and his teachings. When we set some man up in leadership and prevent females from an equal place, we do ourselves a disservice. After all, both male and female represent the image of God, not just males. There is more to add, but I will stop.

Happy Palm Sunday.

[dneal]

The early Christians did not have the scriptures. There was not such thing as a bible until the printing press


Circa B.C. 1400–400 - The manuscripts comprising the original Hebrew Bible (39 Old Testament books) are completed. The Book of the Law is kept in the tabernacle and later in the Temple beside the Ark of the Covenant.
Circa B.C. 300 - All of the original Old Testament Hebrew books have been written, collected, and recognized as official, canonical books.
Circa B.C. 250–200 - The Septuagint, a popular Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (39 Old Testament books), is produced. The 14 books of the Apocrypha are also included.
Circa A.D. 45–100 - Original 27 books of the Greek New Testament are written.
Circa A.D. 140-150 - Marcion of Sinope's heretical "New Testament" prompted Orthodox Christians to establish a New Testament canon.
Circa A.D. 200 - The Jewish Mishnah, the Oral Torah, is first recorded.
Circa A.D. 240 - Origen compiles the Hexapla, a six-columned parallel of Greek and Hebrew texts.
Circa A.D. 305-310 - Lucian of Antioch's Greek New Testament text becomes the basis for the Textus Receptus.
Circa A.D. 312 - Codex Vaticanus is possibly among the original 50 copies of the Bible ordered by Emperor Constantine. It is eventually kept in the Vatican Library in Rome.
A.D. 367 - Athanasius of Alexandria identifies the complete New Testament canon (27 books) for the first time.
A.D. 382-384 - Saint Jerome translates the New Testament from original Greek into Latin. This translation becomes part of the Latin Vulgate manuscript.
A.D. 397 - Third Synod of Carthage approves the New Testament canon (27 books).
A.D. 390-405 - Saint Jerome translates the Hebrew Bible into Latin and completes the Latin Vulgate manuscript. It includes the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.
A.D. 500 - By now the Scriptures have been translated into multiple languages, not limited to but including an Egyptian version (Codex Alexandrinus), a Coptic version, an Ethiopic translation, a Gothic version (Codex Argenteus), and an Armenian version. Some consider the Armenian to be the most beautiful and accurate of all ancient translations.
A.D. 600 - The Roman Catholic Church declares Latin as the only language for Scripture.
A.D. 680 - Caedmon, English poet and monk, renders Bible books and stories into Anglo Saxon poetry and song.
A.D. 735 - Bede, English historian and monk, translates the Gospels into Anglo Saxon.
A.D. 775 - The Book of Kells, a richly decorated manuscript containing the Gospels and other writings, is completed by Celtic monks in Ireland.
Circa A.D. 865 - Saints Cyril and Methodius begin translating the Bible into Old Church Slavonic.
A.D. 950 - The Lindisfarne Gospels manuscript is translated into Old English.
Circa A.D. 995-1010 - Aelfric, an English abbot, translates parts of Scripture into Old English.
A.D. 1205 - Stephen Langton, theology professor and later Archbishop of Canterbury, creates the first chapter divisions in the books of the Bible.
A.D. 1229 - Council of Toulouse strictly forbids and prohibits lay people from owning a Bible.
A.D. 1240 - French Cardinal Hugh of Saint Cher publishes the first Latin Bible with the chapter divisions that still exist today.
A.D. 1325 - English hermit and poet, Richard Rolle de Hampole, and English poet William Shoreham translate the Psalms into metrical verse.
Circa A.D. 1330 - Rabbi Solomon ben Ismael first places chapter divisions in the margins of the Hebrew Bible.
A.D. 1381-1382 - John Wycliffe and associates, in defiance of the organized Church, believing that people should be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, begin to translate and produce the first handwritten manuscripts of the entire Bible in English. These include the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.
A.D. 1388 - John Purvey revises Wycliffe's Bible.


1440 - Gutenberg invents the printing press.

[Bold2013]

The early Christians did not have the scriptures. There was not such thing as a bible until the printing press


Circa B.C. 1400–400 - The manuscripts comprising the original Hebrew Bible (39 Old Testament books) are completed. The Book of the Law is kept in the tabernacle and later in the Temple beside the Ark of the Covenant.
Circa B.C. 300 - All of the original Old Testament Hebrew books have been written, collected, and recognized as official, canonical books.
Circa B.C. 250–200 - The Septuagint, a popular Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (39 Old Testament books), is produced. The 14 books of the Apocrypha are also included.
Circa A.D. 45–100 - Original 27 books of the Greek New Testament are written.
Circa A.D. 140-150 - Marcion of Sinope's heretical "New Testament" prompted Orthodox Christians to establish a New Testament canon.
Circa A.D. 200 - The Jewish Mishnah, the Oral Torah, is first recorded.
Circa A.D. 240 - Origen compiles the Hexapla, a six-columned parallel of Greek and Hebrew texts.
Circa A.D. 305-310 - Lucian of Antioch's Greek New Testament text becomes the basis for the Textus Receptus.
Circa A.D. 312 - Codex Vaticanus is possibly among the original 50 copies of the Bible ordered by Emperor Constantine. It is eventually kept in the Vatican Library in Rome.
A.D. 367 - Athanasius of Alexandria identifies the complete New Testament canon (27 books) for the first time.
A.D. 382-384 - Saint Jerome translates the New Testament from original Greek into Latin. This translation becomes part of the Latin Vulgate manuscript.
A.D. 397 - Third Synod of Carthage approves the New Testament canon (27 books).
A.D. 390-405 - Saint Jerome translates the Hebrew Bible into Latin and completes the Latin Vulgate manuscript. It includes the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.
A.D. 500 - By now the Scriptures have been translated into multiple languages, not limited to but including an Egyptian version (Codex Alexandrinus), a Coptic version, an Ethiopic translation, a Gothic version (Codex Argenteus), and an Armenian version. Some consider the Armenian to be the most beautiful and accurate of all ancient translations.
A.D. 600 - The Roman Catholic Church declares Latin as the only language for Scripture.
A.D. 680 - Caedmon, English poet and monk, renders Bible books and stories into Anglo Saxon poetry and song.
A.D. 735 - Bede, English historian and monk, translates the Gospels into Anglo Saxon.
A.D. 775 - The Book of Kells, a richly decorated manuscript containing the Gospels and other writings, is completed by Celtic monks in Ireland.
Circa A.D. 865 - Saints Cyril and Methodius begin translating the Bible into Old Church Slavonic.
A.D. 950 - The Lindisfarne Gospels manuscript is translated into Old English.
Circa A.D. 995-1010 - Aelfric, an English abbot, translates parts of Scripture into Old English.
A.D. 1205 - Stephen Langton, theology professor and later Archbishop of Canterbury, creates the first chapter divisions in the books of the Bible.
A.D. 1229 - Council of Toulouse strictly forbids and prohibits lay people from owning a Bible.
A.D. 1240 - French Cardinal Hugh of Saint Cher publishes the first Latin Bible with the chapter divisions that still exist today.
A.D. 1325 - English hermit and poet, Richard Rolle de Hampole, and English poet William Shoreham translate the Psalms into metrical verse.
Circa A.D. 1330 - Rabbi Solomon ben Ismael first places chapter divisions in the margins of the Hebrew Bible.
A.D. 1381-1382 - John Wycliffe and associates, in defiance of the organized Church, believing that people should be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, begin to translate and produce the first handwritten manuscripts of the entire Bible in English. These include the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.
A.D. 1388 - John Purvey revises Wycliffe's Bible.


1440 - Gutenberg invents the printing press.

Thanks for the listing (I didn’t have the energy to engage the broad errant brushstrokes).

There are some interesting intertextual findings to that establish the fact that Gods people had His word early on. For example in the OT: the historical books of the early king age 1100-1000 BC, reference the Law books from Moses (exodus and wilderness was from about 1450-1400).

[Bold2013]

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

This is what I meant in my earlier post about what can be "wrong":

Why live one's life crippled by fear a of reprisal from an angry, vindictive monster in the closet watching over our every move, when there may be no monsters in closets?

Fear in the Bible has many synonyms, including the one you have highlighted. Context matters. True believes don’t fear his wrath (which Jesus took on our behalf) but we have reverential awe (again I struggled with this view of fear for many decades until I started reading the Bible).

1 John

17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us.

[Chuck Naill]

Early Christians would not have had access to a completed canon in their native language. Some of course didn’t read at all. The point is that the Christian discipleship flourished without a 66 book collection.

[TSherbs]

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

This is what I meant in my earlier post about what can be "wrong":

Why live one's life crippled by fear a of reprisal from an angry, vindictive monster in the closet watching over our every move, when there may be no monsters in closets?

Fear in the Bible has many synonyms, including the one you have highlighted. Context matters. True believes don’t fear his wrath (which Jesus took on our behalf) but we have reverential awe (again I struggled with this view of fear for many decades until I started reading the Bible).

1 John

17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us.

You're being quite selective with your quotations.

No one misunderstands the "wrath" and "punishments" of the Judeo-Christian God in the many acts of violence brought toward the "wicked" or the "unrepentent" of the OT. I won't go over all the examples here: you already know them.

Even the Romans verses that you cite here are a re-visioning of Psalm 36 (my guess is that you know this, too), and, importantly, Psalm 36 ends with this reminder: "See how the evildoers lie fallen-- thrown down, not able to rise!" Yes, the Judeo-Christian God is praised for its "love," but there is retiribution and violent punishment meant even in the idea of "awe," and certainly in the use of the phrase "fear of God." And also in the passage of Romans, that comes from Psalm 36.

Like many of the gods of humanity around the world, the Jewish and Christian "God" both takes and gives life.

[Chuck Naill]

There is a tendency or even a teaching that says the Bible is an essential requirement for Christianity. These also often believe that the HS isn’t as operative as in the first century. Non of this is supported by the text. Paul even asked one group if they had received the baptism of the HE when they first believed.

The “cessationists” more or less have pushed the dependency of the HS to the rear today even though, there is no scripture that would support that view. And, before anyone suggests, the “perfect “ is not referring to a book.

[Bold2013]

Per orthodoxy the Bible is sufficient, clear, authoritative and necessary.

TS. We all want justice, don’t we?

[TSherbs]

Per orthodoxy the Bible is sufficient, clear, authoritative and necessary.

TS. We all want justice, don’t we?

Define what you mean by "justice."

[Chuck Naill]

Sounds like a fundamentalist. I started out with them.

Some sects believe justice means all suffer for eternity due to a sin nature. This sets up the idea of mercy.

[Chuck Naill]

Thing is, there is a lot of bad things that religious people have caused. They just say, well, I’m saved by grace. A sort of getting off the hook.

[Chuck Naill]

I’m thinking now about Jerry Falwell and the Hill Song leader.

People often set up a standard that they can’t meet. They will put others to a standard and make no effort to meet.

“Well, I’m just a sinner saved by grace” get out of jail free card …lol!

[Bold2013]

Per orthodoxy the Bible is sufficient, clear, authoritative and necessary.

TS. We all want justice, don’t we?

Define what you mean by "justice."

Justice is giving what is due

[TSherbs]

Per orthodoxy the Bible is sufficient, clear, authoritative and necessary.

TS. We all want justice, don’t we?

Define what you mean by "justice."

Justice is giving what is due

Then, no. Not everyone wants "justice," according to your definition. First of all, "justice" is not always "given."

[Chuck Naill]

Some think everyone deserves hell and eternal torment.

[TSherbs]

Here is a humorous example of what I was discussing above, from the great Gary Larson:

https://i.imgur.com/OdWFCkH.jpg?1

[Chuck Naill]

Here is a humorous example of what I was discussing above, from the great Gary Larson:

https://i.imgur.com/OdWFCkH.jpg?1

So, imagine a piano falling on you and then having the result of eternal torment simply for being born. I know of someone, who for no fault of their own, suffer significant mental illness which cause them to lash out in anger and hurt others. Some would call it sin.

[kazoolaw]

The danger is not God choosing, but people deciding what God chose.

Agreed. The danger is with ourselves.


I didn’t say that, bold. You’re like Kazoo, reading is not your forte.

Chuck, thanks for thinking of me.
The "danger" is people deciding what God chose.
Chuck and Bold 2013 are people.
The danger is in Chuck and Bold 2013. [and in all people]
Glad I was able to help, Chuck.

[Chuck Naill]

The danger is not God choosing, but people deciding what God chose.

Agreed. The danger is with ourselves.


I didn’t say that, bold. You’re like Kazoo, reading is not your forte.

Chuck, thanks for thinking of me.
The "danger" is people deciding what God chose.
Chuck and Bold 2013 are people.
The danger is in Chuck and Bold 2013. [and in all people]
Glad I was able to help, Chuck.


I know longer speak for God. If he wants glory, he/she must do the work. This is not an original thought as I am not that bright. YMMV is always operative.

Not need to thank me (whoever you are). :)

[Bold2013]

TS. I guess not everyone wants justice (for example criminals like Putin but I’m sure he internally justifies his actions but I have been guilty of the same thing).

I think the creator of all things will be a better judge than any of His creation.

[Chuck Naill]

Abstracted from Luke 12


"54 He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time?

57 “Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

Jesus did not suggest his disciples should not or could not judge.

[Bold2013]

Thing is, there is a lot of bad things that religious people have caused. They just say, well, I’m saved by grace. A sort of getting off the hook.

I don’t think they will get off the hook.

Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Also leaders will be held to higher standards

James

3 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways

[Chuck Naill]

Thing is, there is a lot of bad things that religious people have caused. They just say, well, I’m saved by grace. A sort of getting off the hook.

I don’t think they will get off the hook.

Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Also leaders will be held to higher standards

James

3 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways

Are you able to articulate your thoughts without quoting a Biblical verse? Paul did. Peter did. Herein lies the problem with total dependancy upon the scriptures. People enslave people using Biblcal passages. They subjugated females using Biblical passages. God gave you a mind that I suppose you used to attend medical school and become a doctor. Doesn't God expect you to use it?

What would your life be like if you suddenly were on a desert island with no bible? Have you memorized enough to get you through? Would you depend more on the Holy Spirit? Do you consider the Baptism

Abrahm Lincoln was not a particularly religious sort, but he came to see that slavery was not consistent with "all men are created equal". He saw young African girls sold as sex slaves in New Orleans at the same times preachers were quoting the Bible.

[Bold2013]

“God gave you a mind that I suppose you used to attend medical school and become a doctor. Doesn't God expect you to use it?”

Absolutely.

[kazoolaw]

Why live one's life crippled by fear a of reprisal from an angry, vindictive monster in the closet watching over our every move, when there may be no monsters in closets?

You're correct, but not in the way you probably meant it: God is not a monster in a closet. Nor anywhere else.

[kazoolaw]

So, imagine a piano falling on you and then having the result of eternal torment simply for being born.

Simply for being born?

[Chuck Naill]

Yes, the teaching is that everyone is born with a sin nature, from being of the seed of Adam. This is why a virgin birth is necessary.

I have often considered how people could just simply love Creation and the Creator. There will always be selfish people like Putin and Trump. However, most people are decent and just want to live a peaceful life.

By simply loving Creation, there is not conflict with science because you are not trying to support Genesis.

[kazoolaw]

But everyone who is born may avoid eternal torment.

[Bold2013]

Yes, the teaching is that everyone is born with a sin nature, from being of the seed of Adam. This is why a virgin birth is necessary.

I have often considered how people could just simply love Creation and the Creator. There will always be selfish people like Putin and Trump. However, most people are decent and just want to live a peaceful life.

By simply loving Creation, there is not conflict with science because you are not trying to support Genesis.

Chuck you and me along with Trump, Putin and most decent people have sinned. In fact all have sinned and fallen short of His glory.

God hasn’t sinned. No punishment from Him has been unjust. He is not capricious. He said sin by Adam would surely bear the penalty of death and Adam ended up dying outside the garden of eden. But before that God shed the blood of a Lion to cover Adam and allowed him to multiple for a full life (beautiful foreshadow of redemption). Jesus is the everlasting covering, the Passover Lamb for His people.

Christians follow Jesus because we realize we are not decent people (the sick need a physician). We need Him to redeem us.

[Chuck Naill]

But everyone who is born may avoid eternal torment.


Prove it.

[kazoolaw]

To start, the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[Chuck Naill]

That is the patented answer. Had you said your life had been transformed and that you had been set free from addictions and weaknesses, I would have been more likely to have accepting.

Evangelicals rarely talk about what Jesus actually said. They focus on sun and skipping hell.

I came that they might have life, and abundant life. What happened? Paul? Peter! The church?

[Bold2013]

That is the patented answer. Had you said your life had been transformed and that you had been set free from addictions and weaknesses, I would have been more likely to have accepting.

Evangelicals rarely talk about what Jesus actually said. They focus on sun and skipping hell.

I came that they might have life, and abundant life. What happened? Paul? Peter! The church?

Kazoolaw’s evidence being historically rooted carries far more weight than subjective experience.

[Chuck Naill]

While I may challenge, my intent is not to change in what you chose to believe.

[kazoolaw]

That is the patented answer. Had you said your life had been transformed and that you had been set free from addictions and weaknesses, I would have been more likely to have accepting.

Evangelicals rarely talk about what Jesus actually said. They focus on sun and skipping hell.

I came that they might have life, and abundant life. What happened? Paul? Peter! The church?

"Patented?" No.
Many people kick addictions, and overcome weakness.
Christ's sacrificial death, and resurrection, is proof that birth does not inevitably lead to eternal damnation.
Evangelicals I've met talk constantly about Christ's words, and the entire Bible for that matter.
Yes, Christ said that He came so that His sheep could have life, and have it more abundantly.
That's never changed.

[Chuck Naill]

That is the patented answer. Had you said your life had been transformed and that you had been set free from addictions and weaknesses, I would have been more likely to have accepting.

Evangelicals rarely talk about what Jesus actually said. They focus on sun and skipping hell.

I came that they might have life, and abundant life. What happened? Paul? Peter! The church?

"Patented?" No.
Many people kick addictions, and overcome weakness.
Christ's sacrificial death, and resurrection, is proof that birth does not inevitably lead to eternal damnation.
Evangelicals I've met talk constantly about Christ's words, and the entire Bible for that matter.
Yes, Christ said that He came so that His sheep could have life, and have it more abundantly.
That's never changed.


It’s a common response.

Talking and following are not the same. I can talk about Buddha without claiming to be a follower.

What does having “life” in the context of Jesus’ words mean to you? Does experience matter to you personally?

[kazoolaw]

It's common because it's the truth.
And yes, Jesus said that there will be those who said "Lord, Lord" never knew Him.

[TSherbs]

Bold, I think that for your argument to have any weight here with non-believers, you will have to prove the miracles and resurrection of Jesus from records outside of the scriptures. Otherwise, to refer to the scriptures themselves to assert the validity of scripture is a form of non-persuasive circular reasoning.

[Chuck Naill]

Ted is correct.

If being a believer has resulted in some transformative result in your life, this lends validity to your argument.

The good news has been reduced to a bastardized version. It is obvious that Jesus referred to a personal and transformative experience.

[Chuck Naill]

It's common because it's the truth.
And yes, Jesus said that there will be those who said "Lord, Lord" never knew Him.


No, it’s common because that’s all modern believers know to say. Their experience is academic and not personal.

[Bold2013]

This short video is a nice change of pace.

In this episode of Doug Reacts, Pastor Doug Wilson responds to a video from Joe Rogan and David Mamet talking about the Bible as a myth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB-HHAgDdM8

[Chuck Naill]

This short video is a nice change of pace.

In this episode of Doug Reacts, Pastor Doug Wilson responds to a video from Joe Rogan and David Mamet talking about the Bible as a myth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB-HHAgDdM8

I admit to trying to listen. That man is unreasonable is okay, that he is sinful is religion.

The stories about octopi is s a bit silly.. it’s cute, but it doesn’t serve to prove anything.

I don’t discount the usefulness and wisdom of scripture. I am questioning the infallibility of every book in the acceptable canon.

For example, that women in the church should remain quite. Give me a break!!

[TSherbs]

This short video is a nice change of pace.

In this episode of Doug Reacts, Pastor Doug Wilson responds to a video from Joe Rogan and David Mamet talking about the Bible as a myth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB-HHAgDdM8

I rarely play videos posted here, but I did watch this one.

Bold, you have mostly been respectful and polite, but occasionally you post things, apparently for discussion, because you have posted them here on a discussion board.

Here are my sincere responses to this video, put succinctly:

1) Mamet's commentary is full of pompous, presumptuous bullshit. I would regret buying him a beer if I had to then listen to him pass this conversation off as wise or thoughtful. (He is a genius playright).

2) Wilson presents this entire piece as an explanation--which he states clearly at the 13-minute mark--of how the Bible is "literally and foundationally true." In other words, he takes as his premise, not as his conclusion, that the Bible is completely and literally true. Another premise that Wilson states at the 2:15 mark is that he is taking for granted and stating as his purpose this: "in order for the Bible to function authoritatively over us".

My point, repeatedly to you in reply to your questions and statements, has been that it is not persuasive in a discussion with non-believers (mostly whom you are conversing with here) to assume from the start the conditions that are actually under debate. What Wilson assumes here, foundationally, is that "the Bible is true because it is the Bible." And, since it said it, let's add: "and we need it to have authority over us."

This video, then, regardless of how well it responds to Mamet's blathering, makes no stronger case here than you have, beyond, "The Bible is right and good because it is the Bible." This is tautology, of course, and may hide the great deceit of being false beyond the confines of its own self-definition of legitimacy. And my guess is that this is the very kind of "truth" *outside* the Bible that you most object to: when people say that things are true merely because they say that the thing is true. This is, in a sense, the most *subjective* argument of all.

So, again I will say, that what is "wrong" with yielding to a *God* certain decisions of justice and punishment and rules of behavior is that there may be no *God* at all and this (or these) religion(s) may be the biggest and most pernicious deceits ever perpetrated upon humanity by itself. Worse than all the fascists combined (and I say this with all sincerity). *If* Christian faith is wrong, then billions of people have been duped into hysteria and war and mysogyny and slavery and repressed sexual desires for millenia. And that would be terribly *wrong.*

[kazoolaw]

It's common because it's the truth.
And yes, Jesus said that there will be those who said "Lord, Lord" never knew Him.


No, it’s common because that’s all modern believers know to say. Their experience is academic and not personal.


Chuck, Chuck...
You are willing to say nearly anything simply to disagree and contradict.
You think it's common because it's what you say.
It is apparent that you don't know many, much less all, modern believers.

[Bold2013]

TS. Thanks for the reply (and thanks for teaching me a new word).

I clearly have biblical presuppositional worldview. I know I can’t convince anyone. Nor do I want to. I just hope to stay consistent and expose/remove those who use it wrongly (which we have countless examples of as you allude too) and to inject my worldview into conversations.

[TSherbs]

TS. Thanks for the reply (and thanks for teaching me a new word).

I clearly have biblical presuppositional worldview. I know I can’t convince anyone. Nor do I want to. I just hope to stay consistent and expose/remove those who use it wrongly (which we have countless examples of as you allude too) and to inject my worldview into conversations.

Thanks, Bold. I wasn't asking to be convinced. I had hoped that you would at least respond to my replies on the topic. Would it be fair to say that you acknowledge the truth of the "if" statement that I wrote above? I am not trying to convince you of anything either. Your faith comes across here as unshakable, at least in your posts.

[Bold2013]

Agreed. I might be a fool in these matters.

I affirm that any wrong that is done it is wrong no matter what we called it or believed it to be. The problem comes back to the standard in which we determine what is wrong.

People have wrongfully applied the Bible to justify actions opposed to its teachings. We shouldn’t hold the Bible at fault for that.

If any belief system is wrong of course it has ramifications, some much larger than others (for example: Bible vs flat earthers)

[Lloyd]

If any belief system is wrong of course it has ramifications, some much larger than others (for example: Bible vs flat earthers)

Which do you see as having higher ramifications?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Bold2013]

Former.

[Chuck Naill]

From a Jewish perspective found today.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/opinion/passover-giving-up-god.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEI PuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJDm8fi OMNAo6B_EGKfaN4fNwt0i7eS95fMbkgAeFqi-BYMwptVwys6NOiqagyHh8U-8i1T39kmNXER6w5-jvnKWezdLgnmeWz-k-IYTb1XKLUg2lyIQ9uvZFifV3923xZwP3EGvVnmYUrhYdXDZh4R zoHYimKveC5SEktfYXbMWyPr1U-SOpbWjrMnNOD675mcA5aCljOSX0X8n9roZoHe4tRZPCjWkZmLM nugrwRCXhqKJOqA_AyRIvUlbZst93duLzptbacYlU8KgxhL1co MHE&smid=url-share