How to approach the teachings of Jesus

[TSherbs]

This is a spill over thread because another became way off topic.

Continue here if you are interested in a discussion about the New Testament.

[Cool Breeze]

This is a spill over thread because another became way off topic.

Continue here if you are interested in a discussion about the New Testament.

100 or 1 million people could read something and have exactly that many interpretations as to how to correctly do so. As such, there needs to be an authoritative source as to what the proper or correct interpretation is. Our Blessed Lord gave that authority to the Catholic Church. You need to find older sources that have been adopted as authoritative and without error (a difficult thing to do if you don't know where to look). If I were you, I would look first at anything by St. Thomas Aquinas. He developed the entire moral philosophy (first started by Aristotle) that the Church as adopted as Her own. He has been declared a Doctor of the Church and his writings are amazing.

If, for some reason, you don't like the idea of what I just wrote because you are protestant, etc, you should still look at his commentary on the virtues as they are a completely OBJECTIVE (NOT subjective/relativist) way to look at literally every single situation you face in your life.

ETA - the Order of Preachers/Dominican Order follow St. Thomas Aquinas in their teachings. So you can look up anything they write as well. Look for "OP" after the author's name and it should be a good starting point as well.

[TSherbs]

A central tenet of existentialism is the ethical obligation of the individual to construct a rational morality without a godhead. It's our duty, and Sartre calls it cowardice to shirk it or to rely on the false certainty of godhead to reinforce "right" and "wrong."

[TSherbs]

This is a spill over thread because another became way off topic.

Continue here if you are interested in a discussion about the New Testament.

100 or 1 million people could read something and have exactly that many interpretations as to how to correctly do so. As such, there needs to be an authoritative source as to what the proper or correct interpretation is. Our Blessed Lord gave that authority to the Catholic Church. You need to find older sources that have been adopted as authoritative and without error (a difficult thing to do if you don't know where to look). If I were you, I would look first at anything by St. Thomas Aquinas....

It's this addressed to me, specifically?

[Cool Breeze]

This is a spill over thread because another became way off topic.

Continue here if you are interested in a discussion about the New Testament.

100 or 1 million people could read something and have exactly that many interpretations as to how to correctly do so. As such, there needs to be an authoritative source as to what the proper or correct interpretation is. Our Blessed Lord gave that authority to the Catholic Church. You need to find older sources that have been adopted as authoritative and without error (a difficult thing to do if you don't know where to look). If I were you, I would look first at anything by St. Thomas Aquinas....

It's this addressed to me, specifically?

Yes, of course - you started the thread "How to approach the teachings of Jesus"

[TSherbs]

This is a spill over thread because another became way off topic.

Continue here if you are interested in a discussion about the New Testament.

100 or 1 million people could read something and have exactly that many interpretations as to how to correctly do so. As such, there needs to be an authoritative source as to what the proper or correct interpretation is. Our Blessed Lord gave that authority to the Catholic Church. You need to find older sources that have been adopted as authoritative and without error (a difficult thing to do if you don't know where to look). If I were you, I would look first at anything by St. Thomas Aquinas....

It's this addressed to me, specifically?

Yes, of course - you started the thread "How to approach the teachings of Jesus"

I started it, but really only to move the discussion that was derailing the other thread.

I'm all set on the Jesus stuff. I have decades of history with the church and with the writings of many saints and Christian writers.

[kazoolaw]

I'm all set on the Jesus stuff. I have decades of history with the church and with the writings of many saints and Christian writers.

Neither of which is the teaching of Jesus.

[Cool Breeze]

I'm all set on the Jesus stuff. I have decades of history with the church and with the writings of many saints and Christian writers.

Neither of which is the teaching of Jesus.

The specific books that were read were never mentioned so how can you make that assertion?

[TSherbs]

I'm all set on the Jesus stuff. I have decades of history with the church and with the writings of many saints and Christian writers.

Neither of which is the teaching of Jesus.

The specific books that were read were never mentioned so how can you make that assertion?

He's just trolling me. Don't worry about it. If you want to discuss something with me, I'm open to it, but you should know that I no longer believe that the Bible is the word of a god. I have no confidence that any god exists, particularly not the Christian idea of one. But I read the Bible and also teach stories from it as part of my literature classes.

[Bold2013]

Just out of curiosity what Bible stories do you teach?

[Cool Breeze]

I'm all set on the Jesus stuff. I have decades of history with the church and with the writings of many saints and Christian writers.

Neither of which is the teaching of Jesus.

The specific books that were read were never mentioned so how can you make that assertion?

He's just trolling me. Don't worry about it. If you want to discuss something with me, I'm open to it, but you should know that I no longer believe that the Bible is the word of a god. I have no confidence that any god exists, particularly not the Christian idea of one. But I read the Bible and also teach stories from it as part of my literature classes.

Trolling - gotcha. I should have known. I was not part of the other series of posts you mentioned and didn't read it. These kind of discussion tend to get heated and no one really changes their minds - so I never bother. I saw the subject to your post on the main board as I was scrolling and it was a slow fastball right over the middle of the plate and I could not help but hit a home run especially for the little effort it took me. It all seemed legitimate to my very fast glance.

As for your current beliefs - I am sorry to hear that and I am not prepared to have a long discussion about that. But I will put my money where my mouth is and present to you the advice I gave in my first post. St. Thomas Aquinas's famous work called "Five proofs/ways of the existence of God". There is an 8:53 min video about it on youtube that is entertaining as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Eg6UUBqqo - If curiosity ever strikes you! Best wishes.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

There are two main problems with the 'Five ways' presented by Aquinas.

1. They are all based on assumptions without evidence.
2. They are all sufficiently explained by science - physics, biology, chemistry.


In his struggles to understand the phenomena of our Universe at large and the world in local (bearing in mind that he lived in the 13th century CE), and being already massively biased toward religion, it is hardly surprising that he ascribed anything unexplainable (for the time) as a product of a mythical all-powerful being. It was a convenient get out of jail card if you will. This is not to say that his works are completely without value.

[Cool Breeze]

There are two main problems with the 'Five ways' presented by Aquinas.

1. They are all based on assumptions without evidence.
2. They are all sufficiently explained by science - physics, biology, chemistry.


In his struggles to understand the phenomena of our Universe at large and the world in local (bearing in mind that he lived in the 13th century CE), and being already massively biased toward religion, it is hardly surprising that he ascribed anything unexplainable (for the time) as a product of a mythical all-powerful being. It was a convenient get out of jail card if you will. This is not to say that his works are completely without value.

1. What assumptions?
2. Science does not and cannot explain the first cause.

[Lloyd]

I was raised as a Conservative Jew and now I'm an Atheist- leaning Agnostic and a mathematician. I watched the video. There's absolutely nothing in that video in terms of proof. To ascribe a "God" as the source of the unknown is why they threw virgins into volcanos to improve harvest.

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[Lloyd]

Also, GERD can cause a sore throat.

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[Bold2013]

There are two main problems with the 'Five ways' presented by Aquinas.

1. They are all based on assumptions without evidence.
2. They are all sufficiently explained by science - physics, biology, chemistry.


In his struggles to understand the phenomena of our Universe at large and the world in local (bearing in mind that he lived in the 13th century CE), and being already massively biased toward religion, it is hardly surprising that he ascribed anything unexplainable (for the time) as a product of a mythical all-powerful being. It was a convenient get out of jail card if you will. This is not to say that his works are completely without value.

My study of biology makes me further marvel at the Creator.

[Bold2013]

I'm all set on the Jesus stuff. I have decades of history with the church and with the writings of many saints and Christian writers.

Neither of which is the teaching of Jesus.

The specific books that were read were never mentioned so how can you make that assertion?

He's just trolling me. Don't worry about it. If you want to discuss something with me, I'm open to it, but you should know that I no longer believe that the Bible is the word of a god. I have no confidence that any god exists, particularly not the Christian idea of one. But I read the Bible and also teach stories from it as part of my literature classes.

Trolling - gotcha. I should have known. I was not part of the other series of posts you mentioned and didn't read it. These kind of discussion tend to get heated and no one really changes their minds - so I never bother. I saw the subject to your post on the main board as I was scrolling and it was a slow fastball right over the middle of the plate and I could not help but hit a home run especially for the little effort it took me. It all seemed legitimate to my very fast glance.

As for your current beliefs - I am sorry to hear that and I am not prepared to have a long discussion about that. But I will put my money where my mouth is and present to you the advice I gave in my first post. St. Thomas Aquinas's famous work called "Five proofs/ways of the existence of God". There is an 8:53 min video about it on youtube that is entertaining as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Eg6UUBqqo - If curiosity ever strikes you! Best wishes.

Cool Breeze we might not see eye to eye on some theological matter but I appreciate your wisdom and genuineness.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

There are two main problems with the 'Five ways' presented by Aquinas.

1. They are all based on assumptions without evidence.
2. They are all sufficiently explained by science - physics, biology, chemistry.


In his struggles to understand the phenomena of our Universe at large and the world in local (bearing in mind that he lived in the 13th century CE), and being already massively biased toward religion, it is hardly surprising that he ascribed anything unexplainable (for the time) as a product of a mythical all-powerful being. It was a convenient get out of jail card if you will. This is not to say that his works are completely without value.

1. What assumptions?
2. Science does not and cannot explain the first cause.


What first cause? The universe is eternal, a first cause is not required.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

There are two main problems with the 'Five ways' presented by Aquinas.

1. They are all based on assumptions without evidence.
2. They are all sufficiently explained by science - physics, biology, chemistry.


In his struggles to understand the phenomena of our Universe at large and the world in local (bearing in mind that he lived in the 13th century CE), and being already massively biased toward religion, it is hardly surprising that he ascribed anything unexplainable (for the time) as a product of a mythical all-powerful being. It was a convenient get out of jail card if you will. This is not to say that his works are completely without value.

My study of biology makes me further marvel at the Creator.


It's a wonderful cop-out that can be used for absolutely any argument.

[Lloyd]

Science does not and can not explain the first cause
If this is to be used to prove there exists a God, that should been written "Science HAS not BUT MAY ONE DAY explain the cause". Then, one must disprove this. Beginning the proof with the assumption that it can't ever be explained scientifically is to start the proof with the apriori assumption that there is a master creator.

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[TSherbs]

Just out of curiosity what Bible stories do you teach?

Just last week with my 11th graders we read the story of Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, and Ishmael. And with my 9th graders we read the story of Jesus naming/appointing Simon as Peter.

This kind of thing happens frequently in helping students understand Western literature, especially.

[Bold2013]

Just out of curiosity what Bible stories do you teach?

Just last week with my 11th graders we read the story of Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, and Ishmael. And with my 9th graders we read the story of Jesus naming/appointing Simon as Peter.

This kind of thing happens frequently in helping students understand Western literature, especially.

Nice.

Biblical names, and renaming is a pretty fascinating topic.

[Chuck Naill]

I am sort of posting this as a response to something I read on the Supreme Court Thread.

He got into a lot of trouble for it, but Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason is a very thorough critique of the Bible. He was obviously a student of the scriptures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason

[kazoolaw]

I'm all set on the Jesus stuff. I have decades of history with the church and with the writings of many saints and Christian writers.

Neither of which is the teaching of Jesus.

The specific books that were read were never mentioned so how can you make that assertion?

Books about the history of a church, and writings by "saints" and writers are not in themselves Jesus' teaching. They may be writing about Jesus' teaching, but they are not, themselves, Jesus' teachings.

TS likes to characterize anything which challenges his assertions as trolling.

[Bold2013]

There are two main problems with the 'Five ways' presented by Aquinas.

1. They are all based on assumptions without evidence.
2. They are all sufficiently explained by science - physics, biology, chemistry.


In his struggles to understand the phenomena of our Universe at large and the world in local (bearing in mind that he lived in the 13th century CE), and being already massively biased toward religion, it is hardly surprising that he ascribed anything unexplainable (for the time) as a product of a mythical all-powerful being. It was a convenient get out of jail card if you will. This is not to say that his works are completely without value.

My study of biology makes me further marvel at the Creator.


It's a wonderful cop-out that can be used for absolutely any argument.

Not making an argument. More of an interesting observation. Why do you think we differ so much?

[kazoolaw]

The universe is eternal, a first cause is not required.


What a clear example of a statement without proof, taken on faith.

[Chuck Naill]

I am more satisfied with an intelligence behind the origins of the universe. I also think there are unknowns like the spiritual realm that we get occasional awareness. I enjoyed Frank Peretti novels for this reason.

No one has proven the spirit does not outlast the body, Willard noted. I do think there is an eternal condition of the spirit. What I do not know for certain is if God really holds his creation with a type of contempt awaiting a rebirth. What would make the second any different from the first if Free Will is allowed.

The Bible depicts God in parental vernacular. How many fathers here hold your offspring with contempt for simply being born and human? There are verses that cause me to think otherwise such as, who many fathers, if your son asks for a good thing, give them instead a bad thing, then followed by "how much more will your heavenly father give good things, or the HS to him who asks.

Parents are encouraged to be encouraging and a positive advocate to their children. Children born with mental disease didn't ask for it. I am sure Ted knows about having attention challenges. What would physical conditions that are of no fault of the child mean to a parent? Nothing, they love them the same.

I have experienced healing more than once, but I have also prayed for others and nothing happened. However, I don't stop asking.

Right now, as Paul noted, we do not see things clearly. Nothing wrong with admitting you don't know. Nothing wrong with making a judgement as some disagree. Nothing wrong with seeking as that's usually the path to finding out.

I think most would agree privately they would like to see more and experience more. Nothing wrong with asking.

[TSherbs]

Just out of curiosity what Bible stories do you teach?

Just last week with my 11th graders we read the story of Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, and Ishmael. And with my 9th graders we read the story of Jesus naming/appointing Simon as Peter.

This kind of thing happens frequently in helping students understand Western literature, especially.

Nice.

Biblical names, and renaming is a pretty fascinating topic.

There was more to it than this, but yes.

[Chip]

Given the recurrent massacres, persecutions, pogroms, slaughters, iniquities, fraud, pomps, and avarice practiced by those who profess to follow the teachings of Jesus, he must be pretty hard to understand.

The meek shall inherit the earth? Yeah, right. If the meek are scavengers and bacteria.

[Chuck Naill]

Given the recurrent massacres, persecutions, pogroms, slaughters, iniquities, fraud, pomps, and avarice practiced by those who profess to follow the teachings of Jesus, he must be pretty hard to understand.

The meek shall inherit the earth? Yeah, right. If the meek are scavengers and bacteria.

Both Atheists and religious have cause much harm.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

The universe is eternal, a first cause is not required.


What a clear example of a statement without proof, taken on faith.


What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Lloyd]

Just because we don't know a cause to something YET doesn't justify ascribing an unprovable cause. We've yet to know all the answers. In religion, the unknown is attributed to God... no future investigations are needed. In science, the unknown is attributed to something currently unknown but further investigation is employed yielding, through a series of baby steps, the answers.

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[TSherbs]

Given the recurrent massacres, persecutions, pogroms, slaughters, iniquities, fraud, pomps, and avarice practiced by those who profess to follow the teachings of Jesus, he must be pretty hard to understand.

The meek shall inherit the earth? Yeah, right. If the meek are scavengers and bacteria.

The behavior of hundreds of Catholic priests molesting and raping thousands of children and the complicitous and criminal and base behavior of the RCC in covering up the crimes should be added to this list. In recent news, the New Jersey diocese reached a multimillion (85?) settlement with victims. I think that the RCC of America should be sued out of business and all their properties confiscated and sold off as further payments to these victims and to victim support services.

[Lloyd]

Bad Rabbis secretly eat pork and shellfish. It seems that bad priests do FAR worse.

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[TSherbs]

Here is the opening paragraph of the Pennsylvania Grand Jury report of 2018 on the Catholic sexual abuse just in that state:

"I. Introduction

We, the members of this grand jury, need you to hear this. We know some of you have
heard some of it before. There have been other reports about child sex abuse within the Catholic Church. But never on this scale. For many of us, those earlier stories happened someplace else, someplace away. Now we know the truth: it happened everywhere."


6 diocese
300+ abusive priests
1000 victims (identified from church records alone)

This is just one state. The RCC of America had become a corrupt and foul and debased repository of the worst of human behavior and cowardly privilege and coverup. I can't overstate the horrors, endemic to the Catholic hierarchy, that this report reveals. Please read it, although I acknowledge it is dispiriting in the extreme and may be triggering to any victim of physical abuse. The horrors described here at times made me weep in sorrow and anger. But the cauterization of the evil of established and privileged patriarchal religious exceptionalism requires public exposure.

[TSherbs]

A copy of the report is here:
https://www.indianagazette.com/pa-grand-jury-report-pdf/pdf_e58a9c78-9ffa-11e8-bbdc-830804713b00.html

[kazoolaw]

The universe is eternal, a first cause is not required.


What a clear example of a statement without proof, taken on faith.


What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

It's rare to see an atheist acknowledge the role of faith in his position.

[Chuck Naill]

Kaz, you and Bold have done a poor job with the opportunity here to discuss your personal beliefs. Are you trying to win the argument or advance the faith?

[Bold2013]

You know what we believe and why. You have rejected it. What more argument do you need? I leave it in His hands.

[Bold2013]

If you care to approach Jesus’s teaching I suggest you read the Bible cover to cover.

Get some commentaries to help with cultural context (which we can be ignorant of).

Let the text speak for itself. Don’t use your heart to figure it out, it’s His teaching not yours.

[Chuck Naill]

You know what we believe and why. You have rejected it. What more argument do you need? I leave it in His hands.

I don’t know anything except that you quote Biblical passages.

Has any of this had a transforming impact on your life? Have you been healed of addictions? Have you experienced something supernatural? Are you loving and living free? Do you have abundant life that you could not obtain on your own?

Do you have a testimony? Can you give a witness?

[Chuck Naill]

As the blind man said, all I know is I was blind, but now I see.

John asked if he was the one or should they look for another to which Jesus said, the blind see, the lame walk, and the poor have heard the good news!!

[TSherbs]

...I leave it in His hands.

Is this your response also to the debased and criminal practice of Catholic priests abusing and raping children and the Church leaders covering it up?

[Chuck Naill]

There are people sitting on the premises instead of standing on the promises. Discipleship is something to experience. What good is knowing food is available if you can’t eat and taste. Evangelicals have done a good job destroying the gospel.

[Bold2013]

...I leave it in His hands.

Is this your response also to the debased and criminal practice of Catholic priests abusing and raping children and the Church leaders covering it up?

They should and will pay for the sins and crimes.

Jesus had a lot to say about children including those who do them harm.

[Bold2013]

You know what we believe and why. You have rejected it. What more argument do you need? I leave it in His hands.

I don’t know anything except that you quote Biblical passages.

Has any of this had a transforming impact on your life? Have you been healed of addictions? Have you experienced something supernatural? Are you loving and living free? Do you have abundant life that you could not obtain on your own?

Do you have a testimony? Can you give a witness?

Why deflect away from Jesus to talk about myself?

[TSherbs]

...Evangelicals have done a good job destroying the gospel.

I don't care about the book. It's human beings I care about, especially the children. If being a good Catholic/Christian means throwing up one's hands to rape and abuse of children and being passive conspirators, then they all should get punishment on earth. Maybe some of the kinds popular in the time of Jesus.

[kazoolaw]

...I leave it in His hands.

Is this your response also to the debased and criminal practice of Catholic priests abusing and raping children and the Church leaders covering it up?

They should and will pay for the sins and crimes.

Jesus had a lot to say about children including those who do them harm.

God can work in many ways, criminal prosecution and civil litigation included.

[Bold2013]

They should get what the Canaanites got for their abominations.

[Bold2013]

...Evangelicals have done a good job destroying the gospel.

I don't care about the book. It's human beings I care about, especially the children..

Odd thing to say when you support killing children in the womb.

[Chuck Naill]

Stop it. Lots has been done to harm humanity which does negate the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, etc. No qroup has bragging rights.

If someone has experienced something transformational, that cannot be explained away or argued against.

[Chuck Naill]

Doesn’t

[Chuck Naill]

How many lives have been lost to vaccine deniers and Fauci bashes?

[TSherbs]

...Evangelicals have done a good job destroying the gospel.

I don't care about the book. It's human beings I care about, especially the children..

Odd thing to say when you support killing children in the womb.

Nice try at deflection, Bold.

Are you not capable of acknowledging the sins of your Church leadership? Are you convinced of their perfection, or something? Those humans who stand in the front of the sanctuary and deliver the blood and flesh of Jesus (Eucharist)? Yes, some of those persons have been and are monsters, and your church hierarchy protected them for decades. Jesus scolded false Jews for their sins. Why can't you do that for your false Catholic superiors? They're not perfect. Some, incredibly far from it.

[Bold2013]

First. I am pointing out your inconsistency.

Second. I am not catholic.

Third. Teachers/elders/pastors/priests will give a higher account for their actions. If they don’t get their just punishment in this life they will in the next.

Fourth. This is why the Bible is the authority rather than flawed man (no matter how right we think we are, myself included).

[TSherbs]

My so-called inconsistency isn't relevant to the topic of the failings of faith and religion. This is just an emotional attempt at deflection. There are those of us here not willing to leave justice to a fictional punishment in a fictional afterlife. Far too many human atrocities through history have been allowed to fester and even grow with the "I leave it to God" attitude of not being willing to fight for justice NOW. The world's religions have no moral or behavioral high ground when you look at history. Even your faith here on this thread has been an engine delivering power to your indifference (or denial) and willingness to remain a bystander to the suffering of abused and raped children.

[Chip]

If someone has experienced something transformational, that cannot be explained away or argued against.

I experienced a sudden flash of enlightenment (satori, in Buddhist terms) while I was splitting wood for the stove.

Powerful, but there was no message. Here's the poem I wrote:

Cutting firewood
I split myself in half:
One to suffer,
One to laugh, laugh, laugh.

[Bold2013]

Indifference huh.

I said we should treat them like Canaanites.

[Bold2013]

If someone has experienced something transformational, that cannot be explained away or argued against.

I experienced a sudden flash of enlightenment (satori, in Buddhist terms) while I was splitting wood for the stove.

Powerful, but there was no message. Here's the poem I wrote:

Cutting firewood
I split myself in half:
One to suffer,
One to laugh, laugh, laugh.

Exactly Chip. We agree experiences are possibly real but not evidence.

[Chip]

Exactly Chip. We agree experiences are possibly real but not evidence.

Did you understand the "no message" part?

When those experiencing enlightenment, divine presence, or whatever impose their personal interpretations, there's a problem. They take the experience as support or license for their own desires. Pretty evident with the prophets in the bible and evangelical horndogs in the present day.

[Chuck Naill]

Exactly Chip. We agree experiences are possibly real but not evidence.

Did you understand the "no message" part?

When those experiencing enlightenment, divine presence, or whatever impose their personal interpretations, there's a problem. They take the experience as support or license for their own desires. Pretty evident with the prophets in the bible and evangelical horndogs in the present day.

There is not a problem as long as you don’t impose them on others. I used to say that a man an experience has an advantage over one with a theory.

[Chuck Naill]

...Evangelicals have done a good job destroying the gospel.

I don't care about the book. It's human beings I care about, especially the children..

Odd thing to say when you support killing children in the womb.

Nice try at deflection, Bold.

Are you not capable of acknowledging the sins of your Church leadership? Are you convinced of their perfection, or something? Those humans who stand in the front of the sanctuary and deliver the blood and flesh of Jesus (Eucharist)? Yes, some of those persons have been and are monsters, and your church hierarchy protected them for decades. Jesus scolded false Jews for their sins. Why can't you do that for your false Catholic superiors? They're not perfect. Some, incredibly far from it.

Is he a member of the RCC?

[Lloyd]

Fourth. This is why the Bible is the authority rather than flawed man (no matter how right we think we are, myself included).

Isn't the Bible written (and translated and printed) by flawed men?

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[TSherbs]

...Evangelicals have done a good job destroying the gospel.

I don't care about the book. It's human beings I care about, especially the children..

Odd thing to say when you support killing children in the womb.

Nice try at deflection, Bold.

Are you not capable of acknowledging the sins of your Church leadership? Are you convinced of their perfection, or something? Those humans who stand in the front of the sanctuary and deliver the blood and flesh of Jesus (Eucharist)? Yes, some of those persons have been and are monsters, and your church hierarchy protected them for decades. Jesus scolded false Jews for their sins. Why can't you do that for your false Catholic superiors? They're not perfect. Some, incredibly far from it.

Is he a member of the RCC?

He says not, but he has also said that he is from a Polish and Christian family. I made a statistical assumption, but I don't think that he has said what denomination he is from, although he asked me mine (which I answered).

[TSherbs]

Indifference huh.

I said we should treat them like Canaanites.

Who are the "them," and what does "like Canaanites" mean in our contemporary legal system?

[Chuck Naill]

...Evangelicals have done a good job destroying the gospel.

I don't care about the book. It's human beings I care about, especially the children..

Odd thing to say when you support killing children in the womb.

Nice try at deflection, Bold.

Are you not capable of acknowledging the sins of your Church leadership? Are you convinced of their perfection, or something? Those humans who stand in the front of the sanctuary and deliver the blood and flesh of Jesus (Eucharist)? Yes, some of those persons have been and are monsters, and your church hierarchy protected them for decades. Jesus scolded false Jews for their sins. Why can't you do that for your false Catholic superiors? They're not perfect. Some, incredibly far from it.

Is he a member of the RCC?

He says not, but he has also said that he is from a Polish and Christian family. I made a statistical assumption, but I don't think that he has said what denomination he is from, although he asked me mine (which I answered).

He has revealed precious little except to post verses.

[welch]

Fourth. This is why the Bible is the authority rather than flawed man (no matter how right we think we are, myself included).

Isn't the Bible written (and translated and printed) by flawed men?

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OK, one small comment, and then I'm done.

Lloyd, what you say is exactly the way the Christian tradition sees it. That's why there was such a fight over which books were canonical, and over how to interpret what was read. That's theology and doctrine, and a way it has been for 2,000 years.

In the 20th Century, there arose an idea that "all scripture is God-breathed", a variation of "inspired". All that leads to thnking of the Bible as something like a gigantic piece of philosophy, in which every sentence coheres with all other sentences. Like Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. My own tradition, Methodism, doesn't talk that way, so I find it just weird when I read a call for "a literal interpretation" of the Bible. (Yes, a group centered in the Southeast and Texas will withdraw from the UMC to form a global conservative church based on their notion of Wesleyanism, and, yes, I have followed all that for about fifteen years. I'm tired of it)

[Empty_of_Clouds]

The universe is eternal, a first cause is not required.


What a clear example of a statement without proof, taken on faith.


What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

It's rare to see an atheist acknowledge the role of faith in his position.


Quantum field theory shows that even in a vacuum state there is energy and therefore action, and that subatomic particles can literally just appear and disappear. It's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of accepting the current or trending theories on the basis of observations made therein.

And as an additional observation I note that you haven't provided any evidence for a god. Could it be that you cannot find any? Or that there simply isn't any?

[TSherbs]

I too have much to say on this, mostly for another time. I was raised in parsonages and spent much time in churches and have seen all sorts of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Baha'is, Buddhists and others. I've seen it all. Purists of any stripe are the worst.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Purists of any stripe are the worst.

Could you say what precisely you mean by purist in this context? There are quite a few leaders who, in my opinion, embody the heart of their teachings. I am not sure whether to refer to them as purists, in the sense that you may mean, even though I consider them as shining examples.

[Bold2013]

TS your assumption of me being RCC was fair considering Poland’s religious make up however I have rejected the belief of transubstantiation in prior posts.

I don’t think we can paint all purists with broad brushstrokes. I think consistency in worldview is a mark of a well throughout belief.

[Lloyd]

I think consistency in worldview is a mark of a well throughout belief.

Or a closed mind.

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[TSherbs]

I think consistency in worldview is a mark of a well throughout belief.

Or a closed mind.

"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds," Emerson.

[TSherbs]

Purists of any stripe are the worst.

Could you say what precisely you mean by purist in this context? There are quite a few leaders who, in my opinion, embody the heart of their teachings. I am not sure whether to refer to them as purists, in the sense that you may mean, even though I consider them as shining examples.

I mean righteous believers in absolutes with certainty. I've never met one that isn't actually on the inside an unstable personality with streaks of extremism from lack of empathy and functioning humility.

[Chip]

My parents were Mormons, not particularly devout. My mother would dress me in a sportcoat and clip-on bowtie and deposit me on the church steps, then go home (and likely back to bed).

I didn't care for the church service, droning, dumb, and repetitive, and Sunday school, with smarmy bible tales and kids mewing awful songs like Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam drove me nuts.

So after mom dropped me off, I'd dash across the road to the park and lurk in the bushes, watching the rabbits and squirrels, and listening to the birds sing.

The real, believable world.

[Lloyd]

Why would a creator want its creations to use their short lifespans engaging in singing songs to him? Does the creator have an ego problem?

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[Chip]

Especially songs such as this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dov98r3Tdv0

[Lloyd]

Especially songs such as this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dov98r3Tdv0
I'd convert. At least good southern Baptist music can be worth listening to - even if the meaning is questionable.

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[kazoolaw]

...I note that you haven't provided any evidence for a god. Could it be that you cannot find any? Or that there simply isn't any?

Didn't mean to frustrate you by not responding your schedule.

No and no.

[TSherbs]

My parents were Mormons, not particularly devout. My mother would dress me in a sportcoat and clip-on bowtie and deposit me on the church steps, then go home (and likely back to bed).

I didn't care for the church service, droning, dumb, and repetitive, and Sunday school, with smarmy bible tales and kids mewing awful songs like Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam drove me nuts.

So after mom dropped me off, I'd dash across the road to the park and lurk in the bushes, watching the rabbits and squirrels, and listening to the birds sing.

The real, believable world.

I skipped it a couple times and took my offering money to the arcade. :)

[TSherbs]

... Does the creator have an ego problem?


This question suggests that she does have an ego problem: "Who told you that you are naked?"

God either knows the answer to the question, or God doesn't. Most Christians suggest that God does know, because God knows everything. So, God is asking a question the answer to which she already knows. So it is a question for manipulation and control (and subjugation, in this case).

Fails the ego smell test.

[TSherbs]

Indifference huh.

I said we should treat them like Canaanites.

Who are the "them," and what does "like Canaanites" mean in our contemporary legal system?

In case you missed the question for clarification

[Bold2013]

Sorry TS I have decided to use my time in more profitable ways.

[Chip]

Sorry TS I have decided to use my time in more profitable ways.

Profitable in what sense?

[Chuck Naill]

Sorry TS I have decided to use my time in more profitable ways.

Profitable in what sense?
Lol!! 😂

[Empty_of_Clouds]

...I note that you haven't provided any evidence for a god. Could it be that you cannot find any? Or that there simply isn't any?

Didn't mean to frustrate you by not responding your schedule.

No and no.


I'm not frustrated, I am simply pointing out that you never respond to the request. And still haven't. You saying no and no is cheap. if you have evidence then please share it.

[Chuck Naill]

Don’t hold your breath. Don’t be a Kaz.

[TSherbs]

I know of only a few basic arguments for the "evidence" of a god, from which all other permutations of argument evolve:


1) An immense universe exists, and I cannot conceive of how this is possible without divine causation.

2) Life on earth seems to be so detailed and intricate that I cannot conceive of how this is possible without divine causation.

3) Life and natural law follow such complicated patterns that I cannot conceive of how these patterns exist without divine causation.

4) A sacred text states that a god exists, and I believe this text.

5) I know that a god exists because I know/experience it.


Although I once was a believer (mostly because of #4 and #5), I no longer am a believer in a divine being. I still pray, but it is a meditative conversation with myself, even if I begin "Dear Lord" out of old habits (and that is not vanity).

I once had a friend who argued that the evidence of God was in the smile of a woman. He was an aesthete, not a member of a religious sect.

[TSherbs]

...I note that you haven't provided any evidence for a god. Could it be that you cannot find any? Or that there simply isn't any?

Didn't mean to frustrate you by not responding your schedule.

No and no.


I'm not frustrated, I am simply pointing out that you never respond to the request. And still haven't. You saying no and no is cheap. if you have evidence then please share it.

He's just jerking you along.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I know. If you had heard me saying it out loud you would have heard no frustration in my voice, but rather a sense of a smile.

[TSherbs]

Sorry TS I have decided to use my time in more profitable ways.

"Canaanites": Then, I'm left to take you just literally: that you want the priests put to death by the sword. And, I will suppose, the entire society of priests, perhaps all the way to the Pope, because that is what God did with the Canaanites: "every man, woman, and child" in the society, whether directly guilty of knowingly worshipping false gods or not, was put to death by sword (except for the one prostitute who housed the spies for Joshua).

That's mass murder under the righteous banner of religion. Yikes.

[Lloyd]

I used to think that there must be a God or there wouldn't be bourbon. Then, once I was told that drinking an enjoyable amount would kill me, I figured that either there wasn't a God or that he was a comedian.

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[Chuck Naill]

I used to think that there must be a God or there wouldn't be bourbon. Then, once I was told that drinking an enjoyable amount would kill me, I figured that either there wasn't a God or that he was a comedian.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Trees can keep you warm, help frame housing, make music, and also fall and kill you. :)

If the spirit survives the body, death is as significant an event.

As old country song lyric that I've always found humorous, "everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die". :)

[Chip]

That's mass murder under the righteous banner of religion. Yikes.

Same just god who destroyed two cities with fire, Sodom and Gomorrah, because he objected to the sexual practices of a few residents.

He'd probably hit San Francisco with tactical nukes. If he existed, that is.

[TSherbs]

That's mass murder under the righteous banner of religion. Yikes.

Same just god who destroyed two cities with fire, Sodom and Gomorrah, because he objected to the sexual practices of a few residents.

He'd probably hit San Francisco with tactical nukes. If he existed, that is.
I know, right?

Thing is, those OT stories of acts of God are so clearly works of fiction. It's hard to give any credence to literalist interpretations. Impossible, really.

[Chuck Naill]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/25/us/politics/evangelical-churches-trump-election.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAA AACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJ DmwfiPkORJCH_0bRZKF4INYt1jKUSdtAO7YrAfdy0_VUP0F2Dh Wyv56c3ZkBLi4pqIW1GGMq2paHFZYJzQjXVEjrYuFu2O_4-BucLDm7BfDC2SFxdwYy9pN6fVut3mgPz_3ADrYljoRh26h3A59-QjdUMHSLrOCoX0slQKiObhjd7wUzU-pYSGuTyYbas-RcBV0UXVHWT3p_4nI-7cdcPL4UP6X8LB0nf6nukOlbSzwofMryWcpHF8WDnK5qsLXNtR WL1MGxov02H61Ut7_A2X2o0kuo4d3rfXCPZaCn71MULQ&smid=url-share

[TSherbs]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/25/us/politics/evangelical-churches-trump-election.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAA AACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJ DmwfiPkORJCH_0bRZKF4INYt1jKUSdtAO7YrAfdy0_VUP0F2Dh Wyv56c3ZkBLi4pqIW1GGMq2paHFZYJzQjXVEjrYuFu2O_4-BucLDm7BfDC2SFxdwYy9pN6fVut3mgPz_3ADrYljoRh26h3A59-QjdUMHSLrOCoX0slQKiObhjd7wUzU-pYSGuTyYbas-RcBV0UXVHWT3p_4nI-7cdcPL4UP6X8LB0nf6nukOlbSzwofMryWcpHF8WDnK5qsLXNtR WL1MGxov02H61Ut7_A2X2o0kuo4d3rfXCPZaCn71MULQ&smid=url-share

What a not-so-lovely group of fools. Wackos and spiritual desperados. Colorado's full of them (I visit every year). Can get pretty spooky in some places.

[Chip]

Colorado Springs is a mecca to the weirdo fringe- has been for decades. It's headquarters to a bunch of neo-Nazi militia groups and Christian fanatics.

There's a drug pipeline to the Air Force academy, with dirty cops taking their dip.

Spike Lee set his BlackKKlansman film there. I thought he understated the situation.

[Chip]

Thing is, those OT stories of acts of God are so clearly works of fiction. It's hard to give any credence to literalist interpretations. Impossible, really.

So the Red Sea didn't part?

https://i.imgur.com/bMVk9qT.jpg

Golly!

[TSherbs]

Colorado Springs is a mecca to the weirdo fringe- has been for decades. It's headquarters to a bunch of neo-Nazi militia groups and Christian fanatics.

There's a drug pipeline to the Air Force academy, with dirty cops taking their dip.

Spike Lee set his BlackKKlansman film there. I thought he understated the situation.

There's some wack jobs up in the mountain towns, too.

[Chuck Naill]

American Christianity's embrace of Donald Trump was shocking and their reaction to COVID-19 has been insane. That said, this has been so upsetting that I must just decide to try not to thinking about it or discuss it with my family and friends. I do not think they "know what they do", but the damage has been done.


From a David Brooks op-ed
"This is what has happened over the past six years to millions of American Christians, especially evangelicals. There have been three big issues that have profoundly divided them: the white evangelical embrace of Donald Trump, sex abuse scandals in evangelical churches and parachurch organizations, and attitudes about race relations, especially after the killing of George Floyd.

Thabiti Anyabwile pastors the largely Black Anacostia River Church in Washington, D.C. “It’s been at times agonizing and bewildering,” he says. “My entire relationship landscape has been rearranged. I’ve lost 20-year friendships. I’ve had great distance inserted into relationships that were once close and I thought would be close for life. I’ve grieved.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/04/opinion/evangelicalism-division-renewal.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DPD m4eiOMNAo6B_EGKaLRqYdQ-2zWQTdtAK7pqSP1sz_ReOEooUQSur4SNnNIFPyAx48qVb18B4q jsD_o-4CO4KS6wMvt-z7my-E7aOTW6XveIzXQnIFl6pZVud0Wh3CFe2qvHQLV334N11PlyU4t oBmtVPFn8tPHqCRh5PtWGbAiNqVVlHrEEBkyA2IKU-LkCcw5NCF_ZT3wZ4Ww06dtUPd1_L7-oZld7O5K42eNNfzQueIS5BJQxRJzWk6FqttPOqx-OyMmwwZYmBWeF_Ux-kJLBjzgw-ahMRaE&smid=url-share

[kazoolaw]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/25/us/politics/evangelical-churches-trump-election.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAA AACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJ DmwfiPkORJCH_0bRZKF4INYt1jKUSdtAO7YrAfdy0_VUP0F2Dh Wyv56c3ZkBLi4pqIW1GGMq2paHFZYJzQjXVEjrYuFu2O_4-BucLDm7BfDC2SFxdwYy9pN6fVut3mgPz_3ADrYljoRh26h3A59-QjdUMHSLrOCoX0slQKiObhjd7wUzU-pYSGuTyYbas-RcBV0UXVHWT3p_4nI-7cdcPL4UP6X8LB0nf6nukOlbSzwofMryWcpHF8WDnK5qsLXNtR WL1MGxov02H61Ut7_A2X2o0kuo4d3rfXCPZaCn71MULQ&smid=url-share

What a not-so-lovely group of fools. Wackos and spiritual desperados. Colorado's full of them (I visit every year). Can get pretty spooky in some places.


Colorado Springs is a mecca to the weirdo fringe- has been for decades. It's headquarters to a bunch of neo-Nazi militia groups and Christian fanatics.

There's a drug pipeline to the Air Force academy, with dirty cops taking their dip.

Spike Lee set his BlackKKlansman film there. I thought he understated the situation.

""We will grant Mickey and Minnie full asylum in Colorado," Polis tweeted."
Causation or correlation?

[kazoolaw]

... Does the creator have an ego problem?


This question suggests that she does have an ego problem: "Who told you that you are naked?"

God either knows the answer to the question, or God doesn't. Most Christians suggest that God does know, because God knows everything. So, God is asking a question the answer to which she already knows. So it is a question for manipulation and control (and subjugation, in this case).



TS to student: "What is 2 + 2?"
Student: "You already know the answer, you controlling, manipulating subjucator! You obviously have an ego problem."

[kazoolaw]

Fourth. This is why the Bible is the authority rather than flawed man (no matter how right we think we are, myself included).

Isn't the Bible written (and translated and printed) by flawed men?


Not written by men.

[Chip]

Not written by men.

Certainly not by women.

Space aliens, perhaps?

"The best explanation for UFOs and alleged encounters with aliens is that fallen angels are at work in the world. They do all they can to deceive human beings and draw them into a belief system without God, without faith, and without the necessary graces for their salvation. If they can get a people wrapped up in theories of alien visitations and extraterrestrial visitors to earth; if they can get them absorbed and fascinated by any number of paranormal phenomena and distracted from God, they will have succeeded in their diabolical mission to deceive and destroy.

What is the Catholic response? There is such a thing as extraterrestrial intelligence. These creatures really are from another world: the spiritual world. They’re what we call angels, and some of these angels are ministers of light. Others are ministers of deception and destruction.

Furthermore, these extraterrestrial forces are involved in a great cosmic war, and human beings are part of the conflict.

Once that is understood, all that remains is for you to decide on which side you plan to do battle."

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/angels-and-aliens

[Chuck Naill]

People had to remember what Jesus said and that oral version eventually written by people who could. It reminds me of learning old fiddle tunes. You'll get several versions of the same tune. Matthew, Mark , Luke, and John are not the same account. Trying to get them to say the same thing is important to some.

What is clear is Jesus use of the Law of Reciprocity, not unique to him, but nonetheless a significant pearl of wisdom to them that decide to follow. My two favorite teachings include the woman caught in Adultery and the Samaritan as the neighbor to be. I see the account of the thief on the cross to be the simplest form of how to become a disciple.

Luke and John are my favorite gospel accounts. I especially like Luke 4.

When John the Baptist asked, "are you the one or should we seek for another" it always causes me to feel for the "front runner". "I tell you, among those born of women, there is no greater than John, but the least in the KOG is greater than he".

[TSherbs]

People had to remember what Jesus said and that oral version eventually written by people who could. It reminds me of learning old fiddle tunes. You'll get several versions of the same tune. Matthew, Mark , Luke, and John are not the same account. Trying to get them to say the same thing is important to some.

What is clear is Jesus use of the Law of Reciprocity, not unique to him, but nonetheless a significant pearl of wisdom to them that decide to follow. My two favorite teachings include the woman caught in Adultery and the Samaritan as the neighbor to be. I see the account of the thief on the cross to be the simplest form of how to become a disciple.

Luke and John are my favorite gospel accounts. I especially like Luke 4.

When John the Baptist asked, "are you the one or should we seek for another" it always causes me to feel for the "front runner". "I tell you, among those born of women, there is no greater than John, but the least in the KOG is greater than he".

I don't trust that a man named Jesus ever said those lines. There is so much in the gospels that is not in any persuasive way attributable to person named Jesus who lived from, say, 3-36AD. Only belief, not rational standards of evidence and provenance, accepts the vast majority of the events and sayings of Jesus as accurate and probable.

[TSherbs]

Not written by men.

Certainly not by women.

Space aliens, perhaps?

"The best explanation for UFOs and alleged encounters with aliens is that fallen angels are at work in the world. They do all they can to deceive human beings and draw them into a belief system without God, without faith, and without the necessary graces for their salvation. If they can get a people wrapped up in theories of alien visitations and extraterrestrial visitors to earth; if they can get them absorbed and fascinated by any number of paranormal phenomena and distracted from God, they will have succeeded in their diabolical mission to deceive and destroy.

What is the Catholic response? There is such a thing as extraterrestrial intelligence. These creatures really are from another world: the spiritual world. They’re what we call angels, and some of these angels are ministers of light. Others are ministers of deception and destruction.

Furthermore, these extraterrestrial forces are involved in a great cosmic war, and human beings are part of the conflict.

Once that is understood, all that remains is for you to decide on which side you plan to do battle."

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/angels-and-aliens

Ever read "Job: A Comedy of Justice," by Heinlein?

[kazoolaw]

Not written by men.

Certainly not by women.

Space aliens, perhaps?

No, written and inspired by God. Transcribed by men.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Not written by men.

Certainly not by women.

Space aliens, perhaps?

No, written and inspired by God. Transcribed by men.

Evidence?

[Lloyd]

Not written by men.

Certainly not by women.

Space aliens, perhaps?

No, written and inspired by God. Transcribed by men.
Did God use cursive? Perhaps a fancy copper plate? The part he merely inspired, who wrote that? Who certified the accuracy and, for that matter, veracity of the translation? Did anyone check to see if God over-exaggerated his accomplishments or at least over embellished them?

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[TSherbs]

Not written by men.

Certainly not by women.

Space aliens, perhaps?

No, written and inspired by God. Transcribed by men.
Did God use cursive?

Ha! Because she had an old-school literacy teacher ;)

Maybe God "dictated" (in a stentorian voice)

[Lloyd]

If God wrote it and was/is all powerful, why did he wait so long (the invention of the printing press) to have it translated and mass produced? Why not just put one in every home (like Gideon's hotel lending library?

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[Bold2013]

Here is the thing folks. All of your questions have been specifically addressed throughout the last 2000 years of church history. If you really care to know what orthodoxy says go find it on your own.

This pattern of asking questions just to tear down (without truly listening) is immature and rude.

We can disagree on things but at least be decent about it.

[TSherbs]

Why should anyone listen to orthodoxy? Asking this isn't rude. Jesus came, after all, to turn families against each other. And he criticized his elders. And he overturned the tables at the temple. Orthodoxy sometimes is corrupt and wrong. Surely, its answers have not stayed the same for 2000 years.

Bold, what denomination are you in?

[Bold2013]

TS. If you claim to be a Christian orthodoxy is important. If you are an atheist you probably will ignore it (understandably).

I spent a few decades in a Pentecostal denomination (assemblies of God) but have been leaning more reformed Baptist in the last 5 years.

[Chuck Naill]

People had to remember what Jesus said and that oral version eventually written by people who could. It reminds me of learning old fiddle tunes. You'll get several versions of the same tune. Matthew, Mark , Luke, and John are not the same account. Trying to get them to say the same thing is important to some.

What is clear is Jesus use of the Law of Reciprocity, not unique to him, but nonetheless a significant pearl of wisdom to them that decide to follow. My two favorite teachings include the woman caught in Adultery and the Samaritan as the neighbor to be. I see the account of the thief on the cross to be the simplest form of how to become a disciple.

Luke and John are my favorite gospel accounts. I especially like Luke 4.

When John the Baptist asked, "are you the one or should we seek for another" it always causes me to feel for the "front runner". "I tell you, among those born of women, there is no greater than John, but the least in the KOG is greater than he".

I don't trust that a man named Jesus ever said those lines. There is so much in the gospels that is not in any persuasive way attributable to person named Jesus who lived from, say, 3-36AD. Only belief, not rational standards of evidence and provenance, accepts the vast majority of the events and sayings of Jesus as accurate and probable.

On the other hand, there those that trust he did say those things. Two people trusting differently means nothing, just opinions. I just found it ironic you used “trust”.

[TSherbs]

On the other hand, there those that trust he did say those things.

I know. Those who trust, do so on faith alone. That was my point. If you put the Bible through the kind of provenance and historicity challenges that non-sacred work would be subjected to, most of the quotations attributed to Jesus aren't verifiable, nor even likely to be his kind of expression.

Not to mention the non-canonical texts that include more sayings.

[Lloyd]

Being raised conservative Jew, I find the new testament largely historical fiction. Now that I'm an Atheist-leaning Agnostic, I view the old one that way, too.

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[Bold2013]

Why leaning Agnostic?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I think Lloyd means he is Agnostic but leaning toward Atheism.

[Lloyd]

I think Lloyd means he is Agnostic but leaning toward Atheism.
Correct, EOC. The hyphenated "Atheist-leaning" was to imply it was an adjective to describe Agnotic.

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[Bold2013]

Sorry. Now I see.

What is the leading factor pointing you to atheism?

[Lloyd]

Sorry. Now I see.

What is the leading factor pointing you to atheism?
Perhaps not leading, but overly confident "proofs" that are devoid of being proofs (like the video in this thread). I'd be more inclined to believing the possibility if there weren't false proofs; either the acceptance in it being a hypothesis that, while outlandish, is neither provable nor unprovable, or the answers to why a Judeo-Christian type of God (all powerful, concerned with both humanity as a whole as well as individually) would lead to what our verifiable history and science has shown.

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[TSherbs]

Bold, you might do the same now: don't you ever have doubts? And why do you believe?

[Bold2013]

Of course I have doubted. Especially at a time where it was experiential rather than knowledge based. On the other hand I recognize there is a step of faith regardless of “knowledge” (which is present in atheism if we are honest). I have taken the step toward the God of the Bible but I still study and investigate. During the process His truth (including science and its disappearing and reappearing particles) has become more and more beautiful.

[Chuck Naill]

If your journey is not experiential, something is wrong with your theology. One good thing about the Charismatic movement was to re-introduce the work of the HS in the lives of the disciples of Jesus. Not all who claim to be led by the HS are disciples, of course.

A Charismatic pastor once said that charismatic believers do dumb things because they do not know the scriptures. It should not be either or, but both.

[Bold2013]

Feelings are important and valid but not a firm foundation.

How would it be received if I diagnosed something because it ‘felt right’ rather than it fitting an agreed upon criteria?

[Chuck Naill]

Feelings are important and valid but not a firm foundation.

How would it be received if I diagnosed something because it ‘felt right’ rather than it fitting an agreed upon criteria?

Your diagnosis’s are based on past historical experiences, either yours or medical discovery. Or, at least that’s what medical school, residences, and fellowships teach. No rogue practitioners are well tolerated.

You once said you felt a particular way about the pandemic that was not in line with what the medical community was saying. So, you do have feelings.

That said, experiences are not feelings and emotions. If you asked God for something and it occurred, that’s not an emotion. Feelings have very little to do with it , but nothing wrong with feeling good, well, and free.

[TSherbs]

Of course I have doubted. Especially at a time where it was experiential rather than knowledge based. On the other hand I recognize there is a step of faith regardless of “knowledge” (which is present in atheism if we are honest). I have taken the step toward the God of the Bible but I still study and investigate. During the process His truth (including science and its disappearing and reappearing particles) has become more and more beautiful.

What is divine or supernatural about the transformation of energy into mass and then back again to energy? This has been explained, without "god."

[Bold2013]

It starts with the ex nihilo.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Another problem with this kind of discussion is that sooner or later, no matter what scientific evidence is presented to explain certain phenomenon, the religious side trot out the 'that was done by god' line. It's a convenient catch-all to shut down all arguments without offering counter-argument or evidence.

However, the underlying issue is that there is no testable evidence for god. While there is truth in the statement that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, this could be said about absolutely anything imaginary. There is no proof of a flying spaghetti monster, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As for first cause, the argument fails due to the need to invoke special pleading. Basically, if every event has a cause. and the existence of anything is an event, then even a god must have a cause. Using a dead language to label terms does not lend extra weight, authority, or privilege to the argument.

[TSherbs]

It starts with the ex nihilo.

Bold, you've called other responses rude, but what are we supposed to make of this dodgy, vague response? Can you put in a few sentences what you are trying to say? Was it in response to me? You seem to suggest that there are logical arguments for faith, but then you don't actually make any logical arguments. EoC is having to guess which arguments you mean. I don't even want to bother to guess. You don't have to explain anything, but then I don't see what grounds you have to criticize some others who have some fun with the incomplete arguments posted here.

[TSherbs]

So, I'll ask again, what is so divine about the transformation of energy into mass and back again? To my understanding, this has been explained in physics for some years now. No one is surprised by this, and no one that I had ever read before has suggested that the supernatural is the explanation of this phenomenon. You are aware, correct, that energy is not "nothing"? Are you aware of the "mass" of light, too?

[Lloyd]

So, I'll ask again, what is so divine about the transformation of energy into mass and back again? To my understanding, this has been explained in physics for some years now. No one is surprised by this, and no one that I had ever read before has suggested that the supernatural is the explanation of this phenomenon. You are aware, correct, that energy is not "nothing"? Are you aware of the "mass" of light, too?
OTOH, Einstein was neither an Atheist nor an Agnostic. As I recall, while ethnically he was Jewish, he believed in a Spinoza-styled "God". We were not in his/her image. God was everywhere/ everything in nature (Earthly and celestially). Others here can likely discuss this philosophy better than I.

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[Lloyd]

So, I'll ask again, what is so divine about the transformation of energy into mass and back again? To my understanding, this has been explained in physics for some years now. No one is surprised by this, and no one that I had ever read before has suggested that the supernatural is the explanation of this phenomenon. You are aware, correct, that energy is not "nothing"? Are you aware of the "mass" of light, too?
You know, there are esteemed physicists that both believe in God and modern physics. They don't see them at odds but supportive. I believe the logic is that, without a God, our world wouldn't be as explainable by our sciences... it would be too random. It's this belief that drives some physicists to believe in a grand unified theory - as Einstein (allegedly) said, "God doesn't play dice" https://aeon.co/ideas/what-einstein-meant-by-god-does-not-play-dice

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[TSherbs]

So, I'll ask again, what is so divine about the transformation of energy into mass and back again? To my understanding, this has been explained in physics for some years now. No one is surprised by this, and no one that I had ever read before has suggested that the supernatural is the explanation of this phenomenon. You are aware, correct, that energy is not "nothing"? Are you aware of the "mass" of light, too?
You know, there are esteemed physicists that both believe in God and modern physics.

Yes, quite. And Darwin's last few pages of The Origin of Species makes the claim (faith based) that God made the first form at the start of evolution. Even he inserted God where he couldn't otherwise conceive or explain. I have felt (and wondered) if I weren't looking at the divine when looking at the great canopy of an old tree.

A great book in my spiritual development was The Tao of Physics, which I read when I was in my early 20s. Fascinating stuff.

[Chuck Naill]

Faith is an interesting concept. Folks have faith in government or not, their ability to succeed or not, in a Donald Trump or not, in institutional integrity or not, in US educational systems or not, and in Jesus or not. Faith is more of a hope that good will persevere and evil will be destroyed. The problem now is, so many cannot tell the difference between good and evil.

[Lloyd]

. The problem now is, so many cannot tell the difference between good and evil.

Could we ever?

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[Chuck Naill]

Maybe social media has just shown the light!🙃

[Lloyd]

I think society would fare better looking in the mirror as opposed to going on media.

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[TSherbs]

I think society would fare better looking in the mirror as opposed to going on media.

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black mirrors?

[Chuck Naill]

I think society would fare better looking in the mirror as opposed to going on media.

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Someone asked me about Musk buying Twitter to which I said it wouldn't affect me since I don't use. I do see not allowing Trump back in case he wants to start another insurrection.

[Cyril]

I did not know there is a holy temple here.!!!!!
What "grail pen" is used here to do reviews of all the sacred teaching do here. And what holy water based ink is being used on those pens!!!
I am just curious :cool:

[Linger]

Why the teachings of Jesus? Try this if you will:

Ricky Gervais on twitter -

There have been nearly 3000 Gods so far but only yours actually exists.The others are silly made up nonsense. But not yours. Yours is real.

Ricky Gervais on Stephen Colbert -

https://youtu.be/P5ZOwNK6n9U

[Chip]

There's a related discussion toward the end of the Supreme Court Nominee thread.

Rather than double-posting, I'll refer you to it.

[Lloyd]

There's a related discussion toward the end of the Supreme Court Nominee thread.

Rather than double-posting, I'll refer you to it.
Can you either re-post it here or provide a link to the specific post on that thread? I can't stomach another political thread here.

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[dneal]

69535

[Lloyd]

69535
Is this supposed to be humerus?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220430/09166ef2f833dd7923263fd9af09a2cd.jpg

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[dneal]

Punny.

[Lloyd]

Punny.
For me, puns have more power than prayers.

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[dneal]

“Punny” for “funny” was too far, it seems.

Proving/disproving god’s existence - which is what these threads always turn into - is a waste of time. One either makes Kierkegaard’s “leap of faith” or they don’t.

The meme above showed up in my Facebook. I chuckled and thought of this thread.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Just read a rather interesting short story by Stephen Baxter called 'Dante Dreams'. Links science and religion in an entertaining way.

[Chip]

Can you either re-post it here or provide a link to the specific post on that thread? I can't stomach another political thread here.

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/36379-Supreme-Court-Nominee/page19

[Chuck Naill]

Nothing like a good chuckle...LOL!!

[Lloyd]

Nothing like a good chuckle...LOL!!
Here you go
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220501/c026a587200e4505acae54f215199b51.jpg

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[Pendragon]

Maybe the best way to approach the teachings of Jesus is by reading the Bible?


Maybe social media has just shown the light!🙃
Our Lady of Electric Light?



69535
Is this supposed to be humerus?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220430/09166ef2f833dd7923263fd9af09a2cd.jpg

Make no bones about it...

[Medievalist]

100 or 1 million people could read something and have exactly that many interpretations as to how to correctly do so. As such, there needs to be an authoritative source as to what the proper or correct interpretation is. Our Blessed Lord gave that authority to the Catholic Church. You need to find older sources that have been adopted as authoritative and without error (a difficult thing to do if you don't know where to look). If I were you, I would look first at anything by St. Thomas Aquinas. He developed the entire moral philosophy (first started by Aristotle) that the Church as adopted as Her own. He has been declared a Doctor of the Church and his writings are amazing.

If you want to read Aquines, learn Latin. Don't rely on a translation.

If you want authoritative sources for the New Testament, learn Koine (you can learn enough to read a modern editon in about six weeks).

If you really want autoritative sources (vs. authorities; sources are primary, authorities are secondary) the entire extant mss. of the two oldest complete NT Bibles, Codex Sinaiaticus (https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/) and Codex Vaticanus (https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1209) are both availiable in high quality images online, for free.

[TSherbs]

100 or 1 million people could read something and have exactly that many interpretations as to how to correctly do so. As such, there needs to be an authoritative source as to what the proper or correct interpretation is. Our Blessed Lord gave that authority to the Catholic Church. You need to find older sources that have been adopted as authoritative and without error (a difficult thing to do if you don't know where to look). If I were you, I would look first at anything by St. Thomas Aquinas. He developed the entire moral philosophy (first started by Aristotle) that the Church as adopted as Her own. He has been declared a Doctor of the Church and his writings are amazing.

If you want to read Aquines, learn Latin. Don't rely on a translation.

If you want authoritative sources for the New Testament, learn Koine (you can learn enough to read a modern editon in about six weeks).

If you really want autoritative sources (vs. authorities; sources are primary, authorities are secondary) the entire extant mss. of the two oldest complete NT Bibles, Codex Sinaiaticus (https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/) and Codex Vaticanus (https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1209) are both availiable in high quality images online, for free.

Is this a Catholic talking to a Catholic?

Jesus did not speak in Latin, did he? And likely did not speak Greek. Aren't *all* extant sources that we have actually translations of whatever Jesus said, especially in his conversations with local residents.

My background is Protestant, the history of which promoted the translation of scripture to broaden access down through society to the lower classes (and both genders).

[Empty_of_Clouds]

100 or 1 million people could read something and have exactly that many interpretations as to how to correctly do so. As such, there needs to be an authoritative source as to what the proper or correct interpretation is. Our Blessed Lord gave that authority to the Catholic Church. You need to find older sources that have been adopted as authoritative and without error (a difficult thing to do if you don't know where to look). If I were you, I would look first at anything by St. Thomas Aquinas. He developed the entire moral philosophy (first started by Aristotle) that the Church as adopted as Her own. He has been declared a Doctor of the Church and his writings are amazing.

Really? At the last count there are more than seven churches that make the claim to being the 'authorised church'. Can't all be right, can they? Choices, choices.

[Lloyd]

Who wrote the Old Testament? I heard it was written in PigLatin.

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[Mags]

An Introduction to the New Testament by David deSilva is not a bad overview to the new gospel and the teachings of Jesus, the subject of the thread. Technically, St. Paul or the author of the Book of Acts and Paul's letters reveal the earliest teachings of Jesus as preserved from early greek writings. I suppose at some point I have to tackle learning Greek to go back and recontemplate the bible and translated books.

[Mags]

Churches: I would think all Christian Churches retain some moral autonomy and authorities. The Orthodox Catholic, Roman Catholic and Anglican Church of England are simply early churches and Anglican's are the root of several branches of new churches that broke away. Then taken all together as one small c catholic or universal church of Christianity they form something like an authoritative source. It is entirely complicated with Calvin, Luther, influences and contrasted with apostolic successions and claims of broken lines of laying on of hands for Church Bishops and such. Both Roman Catholic and Anglicans claim the unbroken line from the early Orthodox Churches along with the Orthodox Catholic denomination.

Maybe the best we can all do is listen, read, learn and be as patient and tolerant of each other's views in our faith journey. I have enjoyed some recent studying of Hebrew Scripture to better dive deep in to Torah and Wisdom books.




100 or 1 million people could read something and have exactly that many interpretations as to how to correctly do so. As such, there needs to be an authoritative source as to what the proper or correct interpretation is. Our Blessed Lord gave that authority to the Catholic Church. You need to find older sources that have been adopted as authoritative and without error (a difficult thing to do if you don't know where to look). If I were you, I would look first at anything by St. Thomas Aquinas. He developed the entire moral philosophy (first started by Aristotle) that the Church as adopted as Her own. He has been declared a Doctor of the Church and his writings are amazing.

Really? At the last count there are more than seven churches that make the claim to being the 'authorised church'. Can't all be right, can they? Choices, choices.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Oh really (part 2)?

When you write about 'unbroken lines' you cannot surely mean a genetic heritage. So that just leaves the stuff that was made up in order to grab some political control over the populace.

[Mags]

Oh really (part 2)?

When you write about 'unbroken lines' you cannot surely mean a genetic heritage. So that just leaves the stuff that was made up in order to grab some political control over the populace.

I mean laying on of hands. Akin, to a line of elected leaders. I meant what I wrote apostolic succession. Had I meant genetic succession or heritage I would have written that.

I suppose it leaves ordered liberty a way of structured continuance of customs, traditions, culture, etc not so much made up as in imagined.


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[Empty_of_Clouds]

So, just bullshit then. Made up, imagined, all the same. It is the arrogance of man.

[Linger]

My god is better than your god. My god is real, your god is not.

The arrogance of man.

[TSherbs]

Humanity is mostly tribal and protective for self-preservation. Many religions grow out of these fundamental self serving needs and to try to address the questions on big philosophical topics and some of the unknowns at the time of the natural world. They're mostly fictions designed to appease human philosophical, cultural, and spiritual needs.

[Medievalist]

Is this a Catholic talking to a Catholic?

No, this is a card-carrying Medievalist. This is a field of academic expertise for me, not a religious pursuit.


Jesus did not speak in Latin, did he? And likely did not speak Greek.

Jesus spoke Aramaic, read Hebrew, probably knew at least some Greek and Latin.


Aren't *all* extant sources that we have actually translations of whatever Jesus said, especially in his conversations with local residents.

Translation means converted from one language to another. The two manuscripts I linked to above are in Koine, a derived from of Classical Greek, and Hebrew, with occasional bits (mostly names) from other languages. They, and the older fragments in the Dead Sea scrolls, and a tiny handful of other partial manuscripts are the sources for the Bible as a combined OT and NT. There are of course oderly copies of the Torah.


My background is Protestant, the history of which promoted the translation of scripture to broaden access down through society to the lower classes (and both genders).

That's . . . that's a rosy glow that's not exactly historically accurate. Yes, the Protestants particularly James VI/James II of England funded the translation of the 1611 Bible.

But. Huge great swathes of it are lifted from the previous non-supported and illegal translations in the Geneva, Wyckliffe and Tyndale Bibles.

It is beautiful prose but has an overt political agenda, which affects the translation. There are less poetic, much more prosaic and textually more accurate translations, many of which even compare different mss. and interpretations or readings.

And there were in fact earlier translations funded by the Catholic church, but no printing press to make them affordable. The Book of Kells is a New Testament in Latin. The Book of Lindesfarne is another, with cheat-notes translating the Latin text into Old English.

The Old Irish Glosses from c. 600-800 are cheat notes translating the Bible, particularly the NT and Psalms, into Old Irish They are a good example of the problems of translation; the little foxes that spoil the vines become dogs eating grapes.

One might look at the 1611 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," and the actual language of the text wihich is more like "apothecary" rather than witch, and in the way it's used (which we can see by comparing the word as it is used in other contemporary and prior texts in the same language), it means poisoner.

I think if you define yourself as a Christian (and I do not), it behooves you to spend the effort to read the texts of your faith in the languages in which they were written, so Hebrew for the OT, and Koine, for the NT.

It takes a twelve year old about six weeks of regular study to be able to read the OT in Hebrew with the aid of a modern edition (with notes about verb forms, etc.) using a dictionary at need. Koine is routinely taught to undergraduates who want to read the NT with the help of a modern edition and a dictionary in six to ten weeks.

Now, most of what you need is available for free on the 'net.

[TSherbs]

[QUOTE]

Jesus spoke Aramaic, read Hebrew, probably knew at least some Greek and Latin.

Very likely spoke Aramaic, maybe spoke Hebrew, the rest is speculation. Actually it is all speculation since you are taking the Bible and its sources as accurate representations of a historical person. It can't even be convincingly demonstrated that this person being referred to as "Jesus" ever could read. At all. The people who wrote the Bible could read and write (obviously), but there is no persuasive evidence that this person called "Jesus" could. First, you must convince that that Jesus said or did any of the things attributed to him. And that is no easy sell. And how many of these things, if proven convincingly, would require a literate person? I am skeptical, obviously, of much of the accuracy of the stories attributed to this "Jesus." They are accepted on faith, not persuasive objective, corroborated evidence.

[Medievalist]

Very likely spoke Aramaic, maybe spoke Hebrew, the rest is speculation. Actually it is all speculation since you are taking the Bible and its sources as accurate representations of a historical person. It can't even be convincingly demonstrated that this person being referred to as "Jesus" ever could read. At all. The people who wrote the Bible could read and write (obviously), but there is no persuasive evidence that this person called "Jesus" could. First, you must convince that that Jesus said or did any of the things attributed to him. And that is no easy sell. And how many of these things, if proven convincingly, would require a literate person? I am skeptical, obviously, of much of the accuracy of the stories attributed to this "Jesus." They are accepted on faith, not persuasive objective, corroborated evidence.

1. Not a Christian. The Bible is a collection of literary texts to me.
2. Jews who are male have to prove literacy in Hebrew in order to be considered adults.
3. I am pretty sure Christ was a person who lived and died in the time of Herod Antipas. Tacitus alone would convince me.

This is a reasonable scholarly discussion (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/did-jesus-exist/) (albeit written for a Christian readership) of the limited extra Biblical data we have. It not quite the same amount of primary data proving that a man named Shakespeare lived and died in Stratford and wrote a bunch of plays and poetry. I believe in that with more certainty, but I think it's a reasonable comparison. We have more data about Chaucer than either of them.

I think people should read the Bible in the best original language texts we have if they identify as Christian. I also think Chaucer and Shakespeare should be read (or heard) in authoritative texts not modern translations

[TSherbs]

Very likely spoke Aramaic, maybe spoke Hebrew, the rest is speculation. Actually it is all speculation since you are taking the Bible and its sources as accurate representations of a historical person. It can't even be convincingly demonstrated that this person being referred to as "Jesus" ever could read. At all. The people who wrote the Bible could read and write (obviously), but there is no persuasive evidence that this person called "Jesus" could. First, you must convince that that Jesus said or did any of the things attributed to him. And that is no easy sell. And how many of these things, if proven convincingly, would require a literate person? I am skeptical, obviously, of much of the accuracy of the stories attributed to this "Jesus." They are accepted on faith, not persuasive objective, corroborated evidence.

1. Not a Christian. The Bible is a collection of literary texts to me.
2. Jews who are male have to prove literacy in Hebrew in order to be considered adults.
3. I am pretty sure Christ was a person who lived and died in the time of Herod Antipas. Tacitus alone would convince me.

This is a reasonable scholarly discussion (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/did-jesus-exist/) (albeit written for a Christian readership) of the limited extra Biblical data we have. It not quite the same amount of primary data proving that a man named Shakespeare lived and died in Stratford and wrote a bunch of plays and poetry. I believe in that with more certainty, but I think it's a reasonable comparison. We have more data about Chaucer than either of them.

I think people should read the Bible in the best original language texts we have if they identify as Christian. I also think Chaucer and Shakespeare should be read (or heard) in authoritative texts not modern translations

You're "not a Christian" but you call this man Jesus "Christ"? Are you just yanking our chains?

[Lloyd]

At least in the 1970s, a conservative Jew didn't need to have Jewish language literacy to get Bar Mitvahed. I only needed to read the words in Hebrew and the translation was provided for me (I think some even memorized the Hebrew from transliteration).

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[Chip]

If as much energy had been devoted not to all the divine fantasy rubbish, and slaughtering unbelievers, but to learning real-world science (little bits like thermodynamics, gravity, evolutionary biology, microbiology, etc.) we wouldn't be in as many potentially fatal messes as we are at present.

[Medievalist]

You're "not a Christian" but you call this man Jesus "Christ"? Are you just yanking our chains?


That's the common way he is referred to in scholarly texts. Calling him Jesus bar Joseph is pretentious at best.

[Lloyd]

Medievalist - I just want to say "thanks". I'm really enjoying your informative posts.

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[TSherbs]

You're "not a Christian" but you call this man Jesus "Christ"? Are you just yanking our chains?


That's the common way he is referred to in scholarly texts. Calling him Jesus bar Joseph is pretentious at best.

Christian scholarly texts, right? After all, whether he is The Christ or not is at the center of the debate here. Referring to the man called Jesus as "Christ" is presumptive in our present conversation. I am trying to highlight the lack of objective evidence about any of the details of this man's life, including what languages he was able to speak or read (or whether he was the Christ in actuality).

And, to be clear, I have not ever disputed that Jesus lived (contrary to the suggestion of your #3 above). In fact, I have stated quite the opposite already in this thread. Others may dispute this, but I don't. My present issue here has been solely focused on the veracity of any claims about the languages that this man Jesus could speak and/or read and write. After all, if he was actually divine in the Christian sense, then I would imagine that believers would think that he could speak, read, understand all languages, including the "Word" beyond all languages.

[Chuck Naill]

You're "not a Christian" but you call this man Jesus "Christ"? Are you just yanking our chains?


That's the common way he is referred to in scholarly texts. Calling him Jesus bar Joseph is pretentious at best.

Christian scholarly texts, right? After all, whether he is The Christ or not is at the center of the debate here. Referring to the man called Jesus as "Christ" is presumptive in our present conversation. I am trying to highlight the lack of objective evidence about any of the details of this man's life, including what languages he was able to speak or read (or whether he was the Christ in actuality).

And, to be clear, I have not ever disputed that Jesus lived (contrary to the suggestion of your #3 above). In fact, I have stated quite the opposite already in this thread. Others may dispute this, but I don't. My present issue here has been solely focused on the veracity of any claims about the languages that this man Jesus could speak and/or read and write. After all, if he was actually divine in the Christian sense, then I would imagine that believers would think that he could speak, read, understand all languages, including the "Word" beyond all languages.

As I pointed out to Bold, no one is a disciple today. They just quote passages and have no experience. In fact, Bold even suggested that experiences and feelings are the same.

When non believers see White Evangelicals support an obvious womanizer, autocratic, demagogue, and voracious cheater, they want to distance themselves. I don't blame them. Who wants to be associated with such hypocrisy?

On the other hand, if someone was a disciple and had a life transformation then lived a quiet and simple life of obedience, where is showed, this would be a profound witness to another person that may be a seeker. Jesus did a lot with 12 and even one didn't last.

Jesus spoke his mind and was despised by the religiousity. So don't get the idea he kept his thoughts to himself.

[Medievalist]

My present issue here has been solely focused on the veracity of any claims about the languages that this man Jesus could speak and/or read and write. After all, if he was actually divine in the Christian sense, then I would imagine that believers would think that he could speak, read, understand all languages, including the "Word" beyond all languages.

Again, speaking of the Bible as a collection of literary texts, that's actually not the agenda. The point of Christ being created as part of the trinity was to live and die as a man. You're engaging in the same trope that people reading Tolkien's LOTR engage in when they want to have the eagles rescue Frodo.

That isn't the point of the narrative.

Speaking as someone who studies Christian theology, again, you're missing the point. There's the whole 40 days of wilderness and denying the temptations presented to him by "Satan." And you're sort of engaging in a side-ways commentary of Corinthians 1:1315.

There isn't a lot of contemporary extra Biblical references to Jesus Christ. However, we know quite a lot about the typical life of a Jewish man in the general area of the Mediterranean and Israel during era of Christ. We have a lot of evidence in texts, including first hand reports about life then (including letters, many of them exceedingly gossipy) and a lot of archaeological data.

I think you are less interested in what languages Jesus knew, and more interested in taking pot shots at Christians and Christianity. Not here for that; it's mean-spirited. While I am emphatically not someone who identifies as Christian, or any kind of religious follower, condemning entire groups of people for the crimes of some is bigotry.

[Chuck Naill]

It’s more easy to talk theory than experience. I guess that’s why most don’t.

[TSherbs]

My present issue here has been solely focused on the veracity of any claims about the languages that this man Jesus could speak and/or read and write. After all, if he was actually divine in the Christian sense, then I would imagine that believers would think that he could speak, read, understand all languages, including the "Word" beyond all languages.

Again, speaking of the Bible as a collection of literary texts, that's actually not the agenda. The point of Christ being created as part of the trinity was to live and die as a man. You're engaging in the same trope that people reading Tolkien's LOTR engage in when they want to have the eagles rescue Frodo.

That isn't the point of the narrative.

Speaking as someone who studies Christian theology, again, you're missing the point. There's the whole 40 days of wilderness and denying the temptations presented to him by "Satan." And you're sort of engaging in a side-ways commentary of Corinthians 1:1315.

There isn't a lot of contemporary extra Biblical references to Jesus Christ. However, we know quite a lot about the typical life of a Jewish man in the general area of the Mediterranean and Israel during era of Christ. We have a lot of evidence in texts, including first hand reports about life then (including letters, many of them exceedingly gossipy) and a lot of archaeological data.

I think you are less interested in what languages Jesus knew, and more interested in taking pot shots at Christians and Christianity. Not here for that; it's mean-spirited. While I am emphatically not someone who identifies as Christian, or any kind of religious follower, condemning entire groups of people for the crimes of some is bigotry.

Dude. There is no pot shot in this: what direct evidence is there that Jesus of Nazareth, a Mediterranean peasant laborer, was literate in a language other than Aramaic and perhaps some Hebrew. I am not convinced he was literate at all, but I am not convinced otherwise, either. I genuinely want to know. You have stated more than once that you are the scholar. I figured that you would know the answer, then. I have never encountered any, but my readings on the matter have been limited.

I don't know what your references to scripture are meant to convey about my motives or behaviors.

[Chuck Naill]

Whether you are convinced or not is of little importance.. Jewish eduction for boys is well documented and understood.

That you have nothing but academic experience shows.

While I understand your concern, you’re missing it.

[TSherbs]

There isn't a lot of contemporary extra Biblical references to Jesus Christ. That's my understanding, and what I have said here. Why are you questioning my motives?


However, we know quite a lot about the typical life of a Jewish man in the general area of the Mediterranean and Israel during era of Christ. Do you know an estimate of the literacy rate among adult Jewish males in the labor trades at that time? And in each language?


I think you are less interested in what languages Jesus knew, and more interested in taking pot shots at Christians and Christianity. You have this wrong, in this case. When I take shots at the preumptions of faith-based attempts at data-claims, I state them clearly. Here, since you have claimed to be a "scholar" in certain related studies (the time of Jesus was not "Medieval"), I am simply asking for straight evidence and data (or a place that I could find it). It's not taking a "pot shot" to ask you, after you volunteered the claim, to explain how the man called Jesus in the Christian Bible was likely to have been literate and in multiple languages. As far as I know--and I am willing to read some more about this--there is no actual evidence that Jesus was literate. And, as I noted, it is difficult even to present material from the gospels as anything definitive about the life of that man except that he lived, probably stated some memorable aphorisms and parables that may or may not be recorded accurately in the texts, had miraculous acts attributed to him, and then a movement formed and continued on after his death, likely by execution (separately, there is much record and data on the Roman use of public execution of Jews and other conquered peoples).

But his literacy? And multiple languages (beyond Aramaic and a bit of Hebrew)? Honestly, I think that no one knows anything objectively accurate, or even likely accurate, about this. But I am open to the possibility. I just need to be more convinced than with what has been presented here thus far. Nothing substantial yet.

[Lloyd]

Here's a proof of the literacy of Jesus*. Wasn't Jesus a professional carpenter? They use tools, right? Tools come with instructions, right? Reading instructions require literacy (as does reading a blueprint... and billing the customer). So, to be professional carpenter, he must have had literacy.

*This is as much of a proof as the ones earlier in this thread about the existence of a... whatever.

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[Chip]

Rather a swerve, but the spat about illiteracy recalls the fact that for centuries, the Catholic hierarchy was mostly opposed to any translation of the bible from priestly Latin to any commonly spoken language.

That is, they didn't want the people to read the central document supporting their corrupt religious empire, and perhaps to reach their own conclusions.

So telling us to read the bible is, in historic terms, richly ironic.

[TSherbs]

I got this, from Zondervan Academic website (a Christian publishing house, for what that is worth):


How Educated Were Jesus's Listeners?

Most scholars propose literacy rates ranging from 10 per-cent on the high end (William Harris) to less than 3 per-cent on the low end (Meir Bar-Ilan).16 Even if these figures are low estimates, it’s still likely a majority of people could not read and write, and thus did not know Hebrew.


This site claims that Jesus was likely literate (although admitting that we can't be sure); it's sources, though, are mostly from the Gospels and other biblical books. In other words, Jesus, for whatever reason, even as a carpenter/laborer, beats the low literacy odds mentioned above. But we don't know why, or even if he actually did. It's is hard, I would imagine, for adherents to Christian principles and beliefs, to make Jesus an illiterate messiah.

[TSherbs]

I got this, from Zondervan Academic website (a Christian publishing house, for what that is worth):


How Educated Were Jesus's Listeners?

Most scholars propose literacy rates ranging from 10 per-cent on the high end (William Harris) to less than 3 per-cent on the low end (Meir Bar-Ilan).16 Even if these figures are low estimates, it’s still likely a majority of people could not read and write, and thus did not know Hebrew.


This site claims that Jesus was likely literate (although admitting that we can't be sure); it's sources, though, are mostly from the Gospels and other biblical books. In other words, Jesus, for whatever reason, even as a carpenter/laborer, beats the low literacy odds mentioned above. But we don't know why, or even if he actually did. It's is hard, I would imagine, for adherents to Christian principles and beliefs, to make Jesus an illiterate messiah.

This same site quotes a source that states that Galilee was a region of higher-than-normal-number of "sages" referred to by Josephus, but these were all from a higher class of elites than that laborer/trade class of the family of Jesus of Nazareth. The odds are against Jesus having been literate, especially in anything except Aramaic (which would have been the sole language of his protractor manual and brand name on his saw blade (nod to Lloyd).

[Chip]

Here's a proof of the literacy of Jesus*. Wasn't Jesus a professional carpenter? They use tools, right? Tools come with instructions, right?

Are you being absurd on purpose? At that time, tools did not come with printed instructions. Any instruction in their use was verbal, based on an apprenticeship.

[Lloyd]

Here's a proof of the literacy of Jesus*. Wasn't Jesus a professional carpenter? They use tools, right? Tools come with instructions, right?

Are you being absurd on purpose? At that time, tools did not come with printed instructions. Any instruction in their use was verbal, based on an apprenticeship.
You actually thought I was serious? Besides, he could have learned how to use the tools watching late night infomercials or episodes of "This Extremely Old House".

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[TSherbs]

Here's a proof of the literacy of Jesus*. Wasn't Jesus a professional carpenter? They use tools, right? Tools come with instructions, right?

Are you being absurd on purpose? At that time, tools did not come with printed instructions. Any instruction in their use was verbal, based on an apprenticeship.

Chip, really?

[Chip]

I took it as humour, but given the spurious reasoning much in evidence on this thread, I responded to the words rather than the intent.

Alas! :facepalm:

[TSherbs]

I took it as humour, but given the spurious reasoning much in evidence on this thread, I responded to the words rather than the intent.

Alas! :facepalm:

There are zealots in the corners, but Lloyd ain't one of 'em.

[Lloyd]

I took it as humour, but given the spurious reasoning much in evidence on this thread, I responded to the words rather than the intent.

Alas! :facepalm:

There are zealots in the corners, but Lloyd ain't one of 'em.
Well, I exhibit zealotry against all zealots.... an anti-zealot zealot.

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[TSherbs]

And I for the poetry of Walt Whitman...

And for the value per dollar of the Jinhao 100 (I am a missionary for the 100)...

[Chuck Naill]

Some are anti-religious zealots.

[Chip]

And then there are the enemies of spelling and punctuation.

[Lloyd]

And then, there are the enemies of spelling and punctuation.
Do tell....



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[TSherbs]

And then there are the enemies of spelling and punctuation.

covfefe

[Chip]

Time to call the grammar cops.

https://i.imgur.com/AxaCKBi.jpg

[Lloyd]

Anyone familiar with Dr. Bart Ehrman? I just listened to this podcast
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9zY2llbmNlc2Fsb24ubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/NzZkOTgyOTAyNzcxMmNjYTNkMTM4NTY5YzY3YTU2M2Q?ep=14

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[Chuck Naill]

Sure have!

[Chip]

Locked and loaded.

https://i.imgur.com/aZLh1CP.jpg

Here's an April 17 Instagram post by Daniel Defense, makers of the Texas murder weapon, tagged "He is Risen!"

[Bold2013]

Risen indeed

[Chuck Naill]

Locked and loaded.

https://i.imgur.com/aZLh1CP.jpg

Here's an April 17 Instagram post by Daniel Defense, makers of the Texas murder weapon, tagged "He is Risen!"

Don’t be fooled. The owner is known for his marketing techniques.

“After one of its military-style rifles was used in the Texas elementary school shooting on Tuesday, the gun manufacturer Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its home page sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde, Texas, and pledging to cooperate with the authorities.

When the pop-up disappeared, a different message took center stage: a promotion, adorned with gold-encased bullets, for a sweepstakes to win $15,000 worth of guns or ammunition.”

[TSherbs]

Locked and loaded.

https://i.imgur.com/aZLh1CP.jpg

Here's an April 17 Instagram post by Daniel Defense, makers of the Texas murder weapon, tagged "He is Risen!"

Disgusting moral depravity.

But we haven't seen much better even from church hierarchy lately.

Do we really expect Christian rapists and pedophiles actually to have sound moral teachings regarding weapon ownership? Granted, this was a gun manufacturer co-opting scripture, but we all know that it is a marketing strategy that works among some Christian men.

Guns for Jesus!

[Chuck Naill]

It is the "Cowboy Myth". How the South Won the Civil War by Heather Cox Richardson will either inform or make you mad as hell. She explains how Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan were steeped in this myth. They, like many, thought to Alamo was to gain Texas independence instead of making it a slave state. It is absolute insanity that American children are being taught lies.

The Evangelicals have done it to themselves by supporting Trump types and their own disregard for women and children within their walls. While saying they are pro life and hypocritically mistreating the living.

Maybe more than any time in history, people cannot say they didn't know. The libraries are free and we are not barred from being able to get to know those who don't look and think as we do.

[Chip]

It's scary how gun-sickness and bloodlust has infiltrated christian fundmentalist thinking. Just do a search for Jesus assault rifle or similar terms and see what shows up.

https://i.imgur.com/FjJSd4T.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5x5AbRf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yw2tW28.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Yuvra0R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lSmxQWU.jpg

[TSherbs]

fucking sick

[Lloyd]

Quentin Tarantino should redo the story of Jesus's crucifixion, except in the retelling, Jesus carries an automatic.

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[CatalinaCohen]

Practice simplicity and humility! Christ and his disciples were simple people, associated with simple laborers, lepers, and other neglected sectors of society. They had no fixed abode, were constantly on the road, and spent much time meditating in silence. Even though you are not required to go out on the road and become an ascetic to follow Christ, it is nevertheless important to know that there is absolutely no need for wealth, status, or prominent accomplishments. I was put on the right track in the church https://firstchurchlove.com. I go to it every day! The fewer sophisticated traps of the material world around you, the less you will be distracted from the essence of Christ's message!

[Chuck Naill]

Practice simplicity and humility! Christ and his disciples were simple people, associated with simple laborers, lepers, and other neglected sectors of society. They had no fixed abode, were constantly on the road, and spent much time meditating in silence. Even though you are not required to go out on the road and become an ascetic to follow Christ, it is nevertheless important to know that there is absolutely no need for wealth, status, or prominent accomplishments.

Well said. There is no indication Jesus would have condemned. He didn’t evangelize. He didn’t push his ideas. He said and loved simply.

While the churches are emptying, what made folks come to Jesus is very present today. Quiet discipleship can do much.

[Chip]

But the religion is founded on a lie: dead people come back to life.

[Lloyd]

But the religion is founded on a lie: dead people come back to life.
What religion isn't founded on a lie? What elected official, in any country, wasn't elected after at LEAST one lie?

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[Chuck Naill]

But the religion is founded on a lie: dead people come back to life.

If there were a system whereby a person could have a transformed mind to live a good life, but not socially isolated, that would be an attractive offering. The problem with Evangelical Christianity is that the whole system is no longer about living a good life, but the "sweet by and by". In other words, the "abundant life" that Jesus spoke about has been subjugated by "saved from Hell". This allows the church member never to consider the quality of their existence while living.

Since life is really hard and harder for some than others, being able to have as good of an existence as possible would be a good thing.

[Chip]

What religion isn't founded on a lie? What elected official, in any country, wasn't elected after at LEAST one lie?

Buddhism seems a bit closer to reality than christianity and islam.

Your second question is overly broad and disingenuous. Can you quote a lie from Jacinda Ardern, prime minister of New Zealand? Katrín Jakobsdóttir, PM of Iceland? Sanne Marin, PM of Finland?

Men lie a lot more often than women. As you know.

[Lloyd]

What religion isn't founded on a lie? What elected official, in any country, wasn't elected after at LEAST one lie?

Buddhism seems a bit closer to reality than christianity and islam.

Your second question is overly broad and disingenuous. Can you quote a lie from Jacinda Ardern, prime minister of New Zealand? Katrín Jakobsdóttir, PM of Iceland? Sanne Marin, PM of Finland?

Men lie a lot more often than women. As you know.

Some Buddhism has quite a bit of myth-based tales, but at least it doesn't want you to put their Gods on pedestals (if you meet Buddha, kill 'em). Some Buddhists only take the non-religious aspects for themselves or merge Buddhism with the typical monotheistic faiths.

Yes, it was largely a disingenuous question. But, while I know little of those individuals, I have a hard time believing that any politician can advance their career without at least a few false promises.

I'm a man, and I will state that it's a verified fact that men lie far rarer than women.

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[Chuck Naill]

Men and women lie.

[Chip]

I'll restate that. I trust women to tell the truth far more than I trust men.

The whole patriarchal dominance thing (central to several major religions) is a colossal lie.

[Chuck Naill]

I tend to agree. Having worked in healthcare, females have their own issues .