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dneal
May 5th, 2022, 06:56 PM
Waiting to see what the latest 80,000 page Pfizer data dump reveals, but this WSJ article (https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-limits-authorized-use-of-j-j-s-covid-19-vaccine-11651788829) popped up in my news feed:

FDA Limits Authorized Use of J&J's Covid-19 Vaccine
Agency makes the change after confirming nine deaths tied to a clotting condition among those who received the one-dose shot


The Food and Drug Administration limited the use of the Covid-19 vaccine from Johnson & Johnson after reviewing the risk of life-threatening blood clots.

The agency said Thursday that the J&J shot’s authorization was now only for adults for whom other shots aren’t available or medically appropriate, or who won’t take another vaccine.

The FDA said it was making the move after confirming a total of 60 cases, including nine deaths, of the clotting condition known as thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome, or TTS, among the millions of people who got the J&J shot.

The change will likely sharply scale back use of a vaccine that health authorities had once hoped would be a convenient option for many people, but has become a third choice for most people because of the emergence of the risk for the rare but life-threatening side effect.

In the U.S., roughly 17 million people have gotten the J&J vaccine, compared with more than 202 million who received two doses of the authorized Covid-19 vaccines from Pfizer Inc. and partner BioNTech SE and from Moderna Inc., according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Because of the risk for the clotting condition, the CDC in December recommended that patients opt for one of the other vaccines over the Johnson & Johnson shot.
“Our action reflects our updated analysis of the risk of TTS following administration of this vaccine and limits the use of the vaccine to certain individuals,” said Peter Marks, who leads the FDA division responsible for regulating vaccines.

Maybe adhoc was justified in his concern. It's a shame that reasonable discussion can't be had on this topic because of certain partisan posters.

Lloyd
May 5th, 2022, 07:23 PM
60 cases in millions of cases? How rare is the condition in those never given the J&J vaccine?

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dneal
May 5th, 2022, 07:38 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking. How often clotting happens absent the J&J vaccine?

The point remains that the CDC and FDA identified enough risk to change policy recommendations.

Lloyd
May 5th, 2022, 07:43 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking. How often clotting happens absent the J&J vaccine?

The point remains that the CDC and FDA identified enough risk to change policy recommendations.
I'm curious if this winds up as a temporary change while more analysis is performed, or if it's a final decision.

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Lloyd
May 5th, 2022, 07:52 PM
https://www.hematology.org/covid-19/vaccine-induced-immune-thrombotic-thrombocytopenia

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dneal
May 5th, 2022, 08:10 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking. How often clotting happens absent the J&J vaccine?

The point remains that the CDC and FDA identified enough risk to change policy recommendations.
I'm curious if this winds up as a temporary change while more analysis is performed, or if it's a final decision.

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The analysis is still being performed - behind closed doors.

From the British Medical Journa (https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/376/bmj.o102.full.pdf)l:


In the pages of The BMJ a decade ago, in the middle of a different pandemic, it came to light that governments around the world had spent billions stockpiling antivirals for influenza that had not been shown to reduce the risk of complications, hospital admissions, or death. The majority of trials that underpinned regulatory approval and government stockpiling of oseltamivir (Tamiflu) were sponsored by the manufacturer; most were unpublished, those that were published were ghostwritten by writers paid by the manufacturer, the people listed as principal authors lacked access to the raw data, and academics who requested access to the data for independent analysis were denied.

The Tamiflu saga heralded a decade of unprecedented attention to the importance of sharing clinical trial data. Public battles for drug company data, transparency campaigns with thousands of signatures, strengthened journal data sharing requirements, explicit commitments from companies to share data, new data access website portals, and landmark transparency policies from medicines regulators all promised a new era in data transparency.

Progress was made, but clearly not enough. The errors of the last pandemic are being repeated. Memories are short. Today, despite the global rollout of covid-19 vaccines and treatments, the anonymised participant level data underlying the trials for these new products remain inaccessible to doctors, researchers, and the public—and are likely to remain that way for years to come. This is morally indefensible for all trials, but especially for those involving major public health interventions.

Unacceptable delay

Pfizer’s pivotal covid vaccine trial was funded by the company and designed, run, analysed, and authored by Pfizer employees. The company and the contract research organisations that carried out the trial hold all the data. And Pfizer has indicated that it will not begin entertaining requests for trial data until May 2025, 24 months after the primary study completion date, which is listed on ClinicalTrials.gov as 15 May 2023 (NCT04368728).

The lack of access to data is consistent across vaccine manufacturers. Moderna says data “may be available ... with publication of the final study results in 2022.” Datasets will be available “upon request and subject to review once the trial is complete,” which has an estimated primary completion date of 27 October 2022 (NCT04470427).

As of 31 December 2021, AstraZeneca may be ready to entertain requests for data from several of its large phase III trials. But actually obtaining data could be slow going. As its website explains, “timelines vary per request and can take up to a year upon full submission of the request.”

Underlying data for covid-19 therapeutics are similarly hard to find. Published reports of Regeneron’s phase III trial of its monoclonal antibody therapy REGEN-COV flatly state that participant level data will not be made available to others. Should the drug be approved (and not just emergency authorised), sharing “will be considered.” For remdesivir, the US National Institutes of Health, which funded the trial, created a new portal to share data (https://accessclinicaldata.niaid.nih.gov/), but the dataset on offer is limited. An accompanying document explains: “The longitudinal data set only contains a small subset of the protocol and statistical analysis plan objectives.”

We are left with publications but no access to the underlying data on reasonable request. This is worrying for trial participants, researchers, clinicians, journal editors, policy makers, and the public. The journals that have published these primary studies may argue that they faced an awkward dilemma, caught between making the summary findings available quickly and upholding the best ethical values that support timely access to underlying data. In our view, there is no dilemma; the anonymised individual participant data from clinical trials must be made available for independent scrutiny.

Journal editors, systematic reviewers, and the writers of clinical practice guideline generally obtain little beyond a journal publication, but regulatory agencies receive far more granular data as part of the regulatory review process. In the words of the European Medicine Agency’s former executive director and senior medical officer, “relying solely on the publications of clinical trials in scientific journals as the basis of healthcare decisions is not a good idea ... Drug regulators have been aware of this limitation for a long time and routinely obtain and assess the full documentation (rather than just publications).”

Among regulators, the US Food and Drug Administration is believed to receive the most raw data but does not proactively release them. After a freedom of information request to the agency for Pfizer’s vaccine data, the FDA offered to release 500 pages a month, a process that would take decades to complete, arguing in court that publicly releasing data was slow owing to the need to first redact sensitive information. This month, however, a judge rejected the FDA’s offer and ordered the data be released at a rate of 55 000 pages a month. The data are to be made available on the requesting organisation’s website (https://phmpt.org/).

In releasing thousands of pages of clinical trial documents, Health Canada and the EMA have also provided a degree of transparency that deserves acknowledgment. Until recently, however, the data remained of limited utility, with copious redactions aimed at protecting trial blinding. But study reports with fewer redactions have been available since September 2021, and missing appendices may be accessible through freedom of information requests.

Even so, anyone looking for participant level datasets may be disappointed because Health Canada and the EMA do not receive or analyse these data, and it remains to be seen how the FDA responds to the court order. Moreover, the FDA is producing data only for Pfizer’s vaccine; other manufacturers’ data cannot be requested until the vaccines are approved, which the Moderna and Johnson & Johnson vaccines are not. Industry, which holds the raw data, is not legally required to honour requests for access from independent researchers.

Like the FDA, and unlike its Canadian and European counterparts, the UK’s regulator—the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency—does not proactively release clinical trial documents, and it has also become delayed in posting information released in response to freedom of information requests on its website.

Transparency and trust

As well as access to the underlying data, transparent decision making is essential. Regulators and public health bodies could release details such as why vaccine trials were not designed to test efficacy against infection and spread of SARS-CoV-2. Had regulators insisted on this outcome, countries would have learnt sooner about the effect of vaccines on transmission and been able to plan accordingly.

Big pharma is the least trusted industry. At least three of the many companies making covid-19 vaccines have past criminal and civil settlements costing them billions of dollars.31 One pleaded guilty to fraud. Other companies have no pre-covid track record. Now the covid pandemic has minted many new pharma billionaires, and vaccine manufacturers have reported tens of billions in revenue.

The BMJ supports vaccination policies based on sound evidence. As the global vaccine rollout continues, it cannot be justifiable or in the best interests of patients and the public that we are left to just trust “in the system,” with the distant hope that the underlying data may become available for independent scrutiny at some point in the future. The same applies to treatments for covid-19. Transparency is the key to building trust and an important route to answering people’s legitimate questions about the efficacy and safety of vaccines and treatments and the clinical and public health policies established for their use.

Twelve years ago we called for the immediate release of raw data from clinical trials. We reiterate that call now. Data must be available when trial results are announced, published, or used to justify regulatory decisions. There is no place for wholesale exemptions from good practice during a pandemic. The public has paid for covid-19 vaccines through vast public funding of research, and it is the public that takes on the balance of benefits and harms that accompany vaccination. The public, therefore, has a right and entitlement to those data, as well as to the interrogation of those data by experts.

Pharmaceutical companies are reaping vast profits without adequate independent scrutiny of their scientific claims. The purpose of regulators is not to dance to the tune of rich global corporations and enrich them further; it is to protect the health of their populations. We need complete data transparency for all studies, we need it in the public interest, and we need it now.


We're admonished to "trust the science", but scientists aren't allowed to review the "science".

Lloyd
May 5th, 2022, 08:52 PM
drneal: That's just an editorial from the BMJ. Note-

Competing interests: We have read and understood BMJ policy on dedaration of interests and declare
that The BMis a co-founder of the AlITrials campaign. PD was one of the Cochrane reviewers studying
influenza antivirals beginning in 2009, who campaigned for access to data. He also helped organise
the Coalition Advocating for Adequately Licensed Medicines (CAALM), which formally petitioned the
FDA to refrain from fully approving any covid-19 vaccine this year (docket FDA-2021-P-0786). PD is
also a member of Public Health and Medical Professionals for Transparency, which has sued the FDA
to obtain the Pfizer covid-19 vaccine data. The views and opinions do not necessarily reflect the official
policy or position of the University of Maryland.


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dneal
May 6th, 2022, 05:31 AM
Yes, it is an editorial. But it passed the editorial board of the BMJ. Is it untrue? The .pdf linked includes the footnotes and references.

This isn't a pro or anti-vax dichotomy issue our hyper-partisan society makes it out to be. This is an issue of transparency and ethics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are dismissing the article simply because "it is an editorial" and because they petitioned the FDA from formally approving any covid vaccine (as opposed to emergency authorization).

Is it not reasonable to advocate not fully approving something that is still under study by the maker?

Lloyd
May 6th, 2022, 12:50 PM
Medicines often remain under study long after release- often as long as they're on the market. Many miss that vaccines and masking aren't stressed to protect individuals, but to protect society. It's public health. If you don't want a vaccine or to wear a mask, stay out of social settings.

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dneal
May 6th, 2022, 12:59 PM
That's not the issue. Do you think it is ethical to withhold trial data, requiring a judge to order its release to the larger scientific community? How does peer review happen if the data is not reviewed?

Lloyd
May 6th, 2022, 03:08 PM
It depends on the circumstances. It doesn't take a large community to analyze this type of data. It's more important to curtail the spread of a plague at the expense of a small population than slow up the process by every Tom, Dick, and Harry stepping forth. Sadly, statistics can be easily misused. If every alternative thinker can tinker with the numbers, no vaccine would be released, especially with any support. Look at the results of releasing climate data. Most grad schools separate statistics from mathematics - the latter being non-contentious. Statistics don't "lie" any more than a calculator, but people can easily use them to support a fallacy.

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dneal
May 6th, 2022, 06:44 PM
Lots in there that also isn't the issue.

Let me ask more simply: Should the data for scientific claims be made available to fellow scientists to peer review?

Lloyd
May 6th, 2022, 06:56 PM
Lots in there that also isn't the issue.

Let me ask more simply: Should the data for scientific claims be made available to fellow scientists to peer review?
Yes but not ALL fellow scientists in every instance.

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Lloyd
May 6th, 2022, 06:57 PM
Does every public transportation system wait to be constructed until every single engineer and architect has looked over the blueprints, materials list, billing statements, design calculations, Etc?

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dneal
May 6th, 2022, 07:10 PM
No one is asserting anything has to wait until every person of a particular discipline reviews something. I don't know why you're introducing that.

I'm simply talking about common scientific standards of scrutiny and peer review. If data is withheld, no real scrutiny can take place. It becomes something one must take on faith. We don't need a few select high-priests of science, holed up in some metaphorical Vatican of science, pronouncing truth - particularly when there is money involved.

That's how people end up with gold slippers and funny hats. Who wants that?

Lloyd
May 6th, 2022, 08:51 PM
During the time of a Public Health crisis, we do need that. Otherwise, nothing would ever happen. Have you looked at our democracy? We can't even have an election without controversy.

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Lloyd
May 6th, 2022, 08:52 PM
As I stated in mentioning the writers of that opinion piece, they didn't want any vaccine put out throughout the year.

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Empty_of_Clouds
May 6th, 2022, 09:49 PM
Tend to agree with Lloyd on this. Some people will always complain about an aspect of peer review such that it supports their own argument. Other scientists looking at the data - are they the right scientists? Are there enough scientists? Are they scientists I personally approve of? And on and on. Shifting the goalposts to make a point that doesn't really exist.


Is it ethical to withhold trial data? That depends entirely on the context in which the data is collected, AND with the precise nature and conditions of the ethical approval under which that data is sought.

Lloyd
May 6th, 2022, 10:15 PM
Recall, in the beginning (and middle) stages, hospitals couldn't keep up, and this was viewed figuratively as a war. When a country is considering going into a war, does every political scientist in the country get to look at all the top secret reasons we need to get involved prior to the involvement?

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dneal
May 7th, 2022, 05:37 AM
During the time of a Public Health crisis, we do need that. Otherwise, nothing would ever happen. Have you looked at our democracy? We can't even have an election without controversy.


Again, you're setting up a false dichotomy. Your assertion isn't the case, and the problems with our democracy hinge on false narratives being put forth from each side (among other things)


As I stated in mentioning the writers of that opinion piece, they didn't want any vaccine put out throughout the year.

Were that true, I would be in agreement, but it is not true. They petitioned that the vaccines shouldn't be fully approved - as opposed to emergency use. See links below.


Recall, in the beginning (and middle) stages, hospitals couldn't keep up, and this was viewed figuratively as a war. When a country is considering going into a war, does every political scientist in the country get to look at all the top secret reasons we need to get involved prior to the involvement?

Once more you perpetuate this all or none argument. No one is arguing that every scientist must review the data, only that the data should be made available for review.

Also recall that there were no treatment protocols. If you tested positive, you went home until you got better or had to go to the emergency room. Any attempt at treatment was ridiculed, and doctors were being threatened for using their best medical judgement to save lives. Medicine got politicized because of irrational hatred for Trump.

and for EOC: A member of your beloved Cochrane institute was one of the petitioners.

The link for the petition is HERE (https://downloads.regulations.gov/FDA-2021-P-0786-0001/attachment_1.pdf)
The FDA's response is HERE (https://downloads.regulations.gov/FDA-2021-P-0786-1557/attachment_1.pdf)


This petition for administrative action is submitted on behalf of CAALM, the Coalition Advocating for Adequately Licensed Medicines (“Petitioner”) pursuant to 21 C.F.R. § 10.30 and related relevant provisions of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act or the Public Health Service Act to request that the Commissioner of Food and Drugs (the “Commissioner”) require that the vaccine manufacturers provide the FDA with the data outlined in the “Actions Requested” section below before approval of any COVID-19 vaccine.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has granted Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs) to three COVID-19 vaccines, enabling rapid, and widespread vaccine rollout across the United States. These EUAs do not have any built-in expiration date, and therefore vaccines can continue to be lawfully distributed under EUA even after a future date when a public health emergency no longer exists.

Approximately seven months have passed since the first EUAs were granted, and two vaccine manufacturers now seek licensure (approval) and have submitted Biologics License Applications (BLAs). Other manufacturers have indicated similar intentions, as well as intentions for EUAs for additional pediatric populations.

We believe the FDA should not prematurely grant a license to any COVID-19 vaccine until all necessary efficacy and safety studies are completed and substantial evidence demonstrates the benefits of an individual COVID-19 vaccine product outweigh the harms for the indicated, recipient population. We are concerned that the premature licensure of a COVID-19 vaccine can seriously undermine public confidence in regulatory authorities, particularly if long-term safety issues were to emerge following licensure.

That seems perfectly reasonable.

Empty_of_Clouds
May 7th, 2022, 06:12 AM
It seems reasonable. Oh, and it's not my beloved Cochrane Review system. I put it forward before because it is considered the gold standard for reviews. I don't have personal attachment to it just professional. Please don't project, it really does nothing for the discussion.

TSherbs
May 7th, 2022, 11:25 AM
Tend to agree with Lloyd on this.

Me too. I have very few criticisms about how all of this has been handled in the US, given the circumstances.

Lloyd
May 7th, 2022, 01:17 PM
It's not an irrational (or rational) hatred of Trump. Both sides of the aisle accepted the vaccine which was developed during Trump's administration.
As this type of thread seems destined to wind up in the gutter, I'm going to go into other, more pleasant, areas of the internet.

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TSherbs
May 7th, 2022, 01:53 PM
....

As this type of thread seems destined to wind up in the gutter, I'm going to go into other, more pleasant, areas of the internet.


You're likely right.

I'm going out to mow. Things are finally greening in my part of Maine.

Lloyd
May 7th, 2022, 02:26 PM
....

As this type of thread seems destined to wind up in the gutter, I'm going to go into other, more pleasant, areas of the internet.


You're likely right.

I'm going out to mow. Things are finally greening in my part of Maine.
That sounds better than going elsewhere on the internet.

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dneal
May 7th, 2022, 03:24 PM
It's not an irrational (or rational) hatred of Trump. Both sides of the aisle accepted the vaccine which was developed during Trump's administration.
As this type of thread seems destined to wind up in the gutter, I'm going to go into other, more pleasant, areas of the internet.

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More untruths, and to be perfectly honest you seem to have been rather disingenuous in your posts. This is how these types of threads end up "in the gutter".

Both the current President and Vice President raised doubt about the vaccine during the election cycle. Leftist media criticized the development timeline, arguing it couldn't be done, and/or that it wouldn't be safe since Trump was pressuring the CDC to accelerate trials and approval. Those concerns evaporated after the election, strangely, as did the memory of them.

I still have concerns about the thoroughness of the trials.

Lloyd
May 7th, 2022, 03:47 PM
I still have concerns about the thoroughness of the trials.

Data collection in these (epidemiological, short time frame due to transmission and hospitalization rate, broad audience) situations is fraught with issues. It's up to the statistical analyses to determine what can and can't be determined from the data and at what confidence/risk level.

If you're so concerned, don't take the shots and stay out of the populace. This isn't about individual health. It's a societal health issue.

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Lloyd
May 7th, 2022, 03:50 PM
By the way, dneal, what forum will you be debating this in from the opposite perspective? Were you on your high school debate team?

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dneal
May 7th, 2022, 05:05 PM
You seem determined to drag this thread down.

Lloyd
May 7th, 2022, 05:22 PM
I think this thread will likely go the way of most others here with or without me. You even said you come here intending to f-k around with the others, regardless which side of the aisle they're on.

It's not just the far left, but that's what predominately resides here. There are plenty of far right places I visit, and I fuck with those guys too.

So be it. It's not the real world. It's an internet forum, and has zero impact on my life. I'll play along and post as it suits me. It's occasional entertainment during a week of rain. A virtual round of whack-a-moron. Chuck's the only one who'll regularly play, but Chip does pop up on occasion.

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dneal
May 7th, 2022, 05:57 PM
I’m not a hypocrite about it though. You should revisit the entirety of that quote you truncated.

Lloyd
May 7th, 2022, 06:55 PM
Thing is, it seems everyone here has their opinion and you want to disrupt/challenge their opinion, not because you believe differently, but because you enjoy the debate. However, the others feel that they ARE their opinion and become maddened. In most peaceful debates, the parties choose sides of an issue while maintaining emotional distance, like yourself. The others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them. I don't think you're trying to expand the others views (something I support), I think your trying to "f-k with them".

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Lloyd
May 7th, 2022, 07:01 PM
By the way, I re-read your full post and I still feel you're a hypocrite. You say that you wish it weren't like it is, but you keep taking the same approach with the same people knowing that you're taking part in it going down the same way. Different topic but same approach. I'm only calling you out as you seem to be the one that isn't emotionally attached to their own opinion.

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dneal
May 7th, 2022, 07:56 PM
You said you were going to other, more pleasant areas of the internet, yet here you still are.

If you were really interested, you could send a PM. We both know you're not.

Empty_of_Clouds
May 7th, 2022, 08:58 PM
It's not rocket science. People want to discuss these matters. What they would prefer though is to do it in a less combative arena. Your presentation is in question here, not the substance of your arguments.

dneal
May 8th, 2022, 05:39 AM
It's not rocket science. People want to discuss these matters. What they would prefer though is to do it in a less combative arena. Your presentation is in question here, not the substance of your arguments.

Bravo for condensing so much irony, in so many different angles, into one succinct post.

Chuck Naill
May 8th, 2022, 08:25 AM
I don’t understand why the same people come here to communicate their opinions in an unmoderated forum then complain. I’m not than thinned skin, but when things don’t go your way you whine. Put @dneal on your ignore list and be done with it, just don’t pretend you are taking a higher road than he is.

TSherbs
May 8th, 2022, 09:56 AM
I don't see anyone "complaining" here, Chuck (although I don't see some posters' comments unless they are quoted). I just see some people explaining why they do or don't participate or respond to certain lines of inquiry or tone. But, as I say, I am not aware of all of the posts.

Chuck Naill
May 8th, 2022, 10:37 AM
Sounds like complaining to me. If you don't like an unmoderated forum, don't participate. I like it and don't mind what comes with it.

TSherbs
May 8th, 2022, 11:05 AM
I like it and don't mind what comes with it.

Awesome. That explains why you post here so often, and perhaps why you and dneal spin into so many dances of aspersions. As he stated, he likes "playing" and "fucking with" people here. Have at it all you want.

Some of the rest of us have to moderate our involvement in various ways.

Empty_of_Clouds
May 8th, 2022, 05:40 PM
It's not rocket science. People want to discuss these matters. What they would prefer though is to do it in a less combative arena. Your presentation is in question here, not the substance of your arguments.

Bravo for condensing so much irony, in so many different angles, into one succinct post.

Thank you I consider it one of my superpowers.

Pendragon
May 9th, 2022, 02:30 AM
I still have concerns about the thoroughness of the trials.
Even "thorough" trials and the official imprimatur of the FDA do not guarantee a vaccine or drug is safe.

COVID is here to stay, vaccines or not.

dneal
May 9th, 2022, 06:25 AM
dneal inserted himself into an argument that had nothing to do with him and got royally triggered. So much for being a dispassionate debater.

He also posted private correspondence between me and him on a public forum without my permission. So much for being ethical, or even having principles.

He's happy to dish shit out over here, but acts like a whipped dog when the truth bites. Not normally given to being pleased to see the discomfort of others, however, it's been long overdue and well deserved. Nothing he says from here on in will be given any credence by me, and others should (if they haven't already) approach what he posts with much caution and suspicion.

Yeah, I’m so triggered I drug it to a different thread.

dneal
May 9th, 2022, 06:34 AM
I still have concerns about the thoroughness of the trials.
Even "thorough" trials and the official imprimatur of the FDA do not guarantee a vaccine or drug is safe.

COVID is here to stay, vaccines or not.

Yes, and Pfizer has paid criminal fines for previous fraud.

Chuck Naill
May 9th, 2022, 07:37 AM
I like it and don't mind what comes with it.

Awesome. That explains why you post here so often, and perhaps why you and dneal spin into so many dances of aspersions. As he stated, he likes "playing" and "fucking with" people here. Have at it all you want.

Some of the rest of us have to moderate our involvement in various ways.
I’ve been reading your posts for a long time. You are in no position to pretend you always take the high road.

Chuck Naill
May 9th, 2022, 07:40 AM
dneal inserted himself into an argument that had nothing to do with him and got royally triggered. So much for being a dispassionate debater.

He also posted private correspondence between me and him on a public forum without my permission. So much for being ethical, or even having principles.

He's happy to dish shit out over here, but acts like a whipped dog when the truth bites. Not normally given to being pleased to see the discomfort of others, however, it's been long overdue and well deserved. Nothing he says from here on in will be given any credence by me, and others should (if they haven't already) approach what he posts with much caution and suspicion.

We all have dished out manure at one time or another. Let’s not pretend any of the regulars are just here to discuss. We all like the drama on some level of have grown to at least know it can occur when we post what’s on our minds.

TSherbs
May 9th, 2022, 12:04 PM
I like it and don't mind what comes with it.

Awesome. That explains why you post here so often, and perhaps why you and dneal spin into so many dances of aspersions. As he stated, he likes "playing" and "fucking with" people here. Have at it all you want.

Some of the rest of us have to moderate our involvement in various ways.
I’ve been reading your posts for a long time. You are in no position to pretend you always take the high road.

I don't "pretend" that I "always" do anything, Chuck.

"Moderating one's involvement" does not mean anything about superiority. It simply means wanting to avoid a mud fight, or at least decreasing the odds. Sometimes it means not even wanting to see others engaging in it. It becomes tiresome for some participants and spectators even. Like you said, anyone unhappy about the dynamics can use the ignore function or just view the threads less often (or even not all all).

Empty_of_Clouds
May 9th, 2022, 12:58 PM
Well, I am off to get my annual flu jab. It won't completely vaccinate me, but it will reduce my chances of getting infected, having a bad time if I do get infected, or becoming a carrier in my community. Just like the Covid vaccine really.

Chuck Naill
May 9th, 2022, 03:30 PM
May seems early. In the US October is recommended.

TSherbs
May 9th, 2022, 03:35 PM
May seems early. In the US October is recommended.
He's heading into winter flu season where he lives.

Empty_of_Clouds
May 9th, 2022, 04:29 PM
Indeed. I've lived here for 19 years now and still get confused by having Christmas in the summer. Mind you I also still convert the currency to GBP in my head.

TSherbs
May 9th, 2022, 06:36 PM
The White House just said to expect a rough flu season this fall with COVID. The epidemiologists tend to understand the mathmatical dynamics of these phenomena. Get ready for another wave. I will get all the shots and boosters that I can.

Empty_of_Clouds
May 9th, 2022, 08:00 PM
Attaboy! :)

(always wanted to say that, hard to believe this is the first opportunity to present itself)

Lloyd
May 9th, 2022, 08:26 PM
Attaboy! :)

(always wanted to say that, hard to believe this is the first opportunity to present itself)
You should get a dog.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Chip
May 15th, 2022, 11:31 PM
Me too. I have very few criticisms about how all of this has been handled in the US, given the circumstances.

I think Trump handled it poorly and the anti-vax loons and conspiracy mongers made things worse.

Here, for comparison:

How Australia Saved Thousands of Lives While Covid Killed a Million Americans
By Damien Cave

May 15, 2022

MELBOURNE, Australia — If the United States had the same Covid death rate as Australia, about 900,000 lives would have been saved. The Texas grandmother who made the perfect pumpkin pie might still be baking. The Red Sox-loving husband who ran marathons before Covid might still be cheering at Fenway Park.

For many Americans, imagining what might have been will be painful. But especially now, at the milestone of one million deaths in the United States, the nations that did a better job of keeping people alive show what Americans could have done differently and what might still need to change.

Many places provide insight. Japan. Kenya. Norway. But Australia offers perhaps the sharpest comparisons with the American experience. Both countries are English-speaking democracies with similar demographic profiles. In Australia and in the United States, the median age is 38. Roughly 86 percent of Australians live in urban areas, compared with 83 percent of Americans.

Yet Australia’s Covid death rate sits at one-tenth of America’s, putting the nation of 25 million people (with around 7,500 deaths) near the top of global rankings in the protection of life.

Australia’s location in the distant Pacific is often cited as the cause for its relative Covid success. That, however, does not fully explain the difference in outcomes between the two countries, since Australia has long been, like the United States, highly connected to the world through trade, tourism and immigration. In 2019, 9.5 million international tourists came to Australia. Sydney and Melbourne could just as easily have become as overrun with Covid as New York or any other American city.

So what went right in Australia and wrong in the United States?

For the standard slide-show presentation, it looks obvious: Australia restricted travel and personal interaction until vaccinations were widely available, then maximized vaccine uptake, prioritizing people who were most vulnerable before gradually opening up the country again.

From one outbreak to another, there were also some mistakes: breakdowns of protocol in nursing homes that led to clusters of deaths; a vaccine rollout hampered by slow purchasing. And with Omicron and eased restrictions, deaths have increased.

But Australia’s Covid playbook produced results because of something more easily felt than analyzed at a news conference. Dozens of interviews, along with survey data and scientific studies from around the world, point to a lifesaving trait that Australians displayed from the top of government to the hospital floor, and that Americans have shown they lack: trust, in science and institutions, but especially in one another.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/15/world/australia/covid-deaths.html?referringSource=articleShare

TSherbs
May 16th, 2022, 08:12 AM
I wonder if size of population (scale of problem) was part of the challenge.

But, I don't disagree with the assessment around trut in science and institutions. This has much eroded in this country (USA).

Chuck Naill
May 16th, 2022, 10:07 AM
I do think we lost the battle because we trusted the wrong folks.

Chuck Naill
May 16th, 2022, 04:43 PM
On other forums men say they have long Covid or just are inflected. They never admit to being vaccinated.

Lloyd
May 16th, 2022, 06:54 PM
I do think we lost the battle because we trusted the wrong folks.
I'm not part of "we".

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Bold2013
May 16th, 2022, 10:10 PM
Maybe “we” overestimated their ability to combat it.

Chip
May 16th, 2022, 10:41 PM
On other forums men say they have long Covid or just are inflected.

Not to argue your point, but some typos are too delicious to ignore. One hopes they don't inflict their disease on the uninflected.

in·flec·tion | inˈflekSH(ə)n |
noun

1 A change in the form of a word (typically the ending) to express a grammatical function or attribute such as tense, mood, person, number, case, and gender: a set of word forms differing only in respect of inflections.
• the process or practice of inflecting words.

2 The modulation of intonation or pitch in the voice: she spoke slowly and without inflection | the variety of his vocal inflections.
• the variation of the pitch of a musical note.

3 A change of curvature from convex to concave at a particular point on a curve: the point of inflection of the bell-shaped curve.

Lloyd
May 16th, 2022, 11:07 PM
Maybe “we” overestimated their ability to combat it.
Unfortunately, there may have been a greater effort to deflect the facts from "we" than to protect "we" in the early crucial days.

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Bold2013
May 17th, 2022, 06:23 AM
Facts like masks and lock downs didn’t stop nature?

Chuck Naill
May 17th, 2022, 10:32 AM
I always considered distancing and masks as precautions rather than guarantees agains infection. Same as hand washing and maintaining a clean counter top when cooking.

You being a doctor, it surprises me of your cavalier approach to epidemiology. Would you want a surgeon operating on you without infection control, masks, and gloves?

Lloyd
May 17th, 2022, 11:14 AM
Facts like masks and lock downs didn’t stop nature?
Stop, no. Reduce the effects of, yes.

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Chuck Naill
May 17th, 2022, 12:03 PM
Don’t go to a doctor like Bold. It could be lethal.

TSherbs
May 17th, 2022, 01:50 PM
About the Birx book on the Trump adminsistration's response to the pandemic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2022/05/trump-covid-pandemic-response-silent-invasion/629847/?utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_content=true-anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3NWLXdUJabaXBUEe9y16EN40mGU8k2nSw8ZbX8S bKsA9iq45lzzboQZRw

Chuck Naill
May 17th, 2022, 02:33 PM
Gives an insight on Trump.

Had anyone here challenged someone who knows? Not saying it can’t be warranted, but not someone with the skill set of Trump.

TSherbs
May 17th, 2022, 05:30 PM
Facts like masks and lock downs didn’t stop nature?

Really, Bold?

Chip
May 17th, 2022, 11:04 PM
Unfortunately, there may have been a greater effort to deflect the facts from "we" than to protect "we" in the early crucial days.

If you bother to read the linked story comparing the US and Australia, it will be clear that public health measures do have a positive effect. While having a goofball president who tried to pass it off as no worse than a cold, and worried more about the damper on corporate profits than saving lives definitely increased the death toll. Politicizing vaccines and masks, etc. with nutjob christians insisting on their sacred right to spread the virus and the RWW loonies claiming it was some sort of Jewish/liberal conspiracy that should be resisted certainly cost thousands more lives.

Lloyd
May 18th, 2022, 01:05 AM
Unfortunately, there may have been a greater effort to deflect the facts from "we" than to protect "we" in the early crucial days.

If you bother to read the linked story comparing the US and Australia, it will be clear that public health measures do have a positive effect. While having a goofball president who tried to pass it off as no worse than a cold, and worried more about the damper on corporate profits than saving lives definitely increased the death toll. Politicizing vaccines and masks, etc. with nutjob christians insisting on their sacred right to spread the virus and the RWW loonies claiming it was some sort of Jewish/liberal conspiracy that should be resisted certainly cost thousands more lives.
That this happened early on, when numbers were low, brought the R value well above 1. So, a few individuals with the virus led to an uncontainable virus.

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TSherbs
June 24th, 2022, 06:14 AM
British study results:

20 million lives worldwide saved by COVID vaccine (1.9 million in the US):

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-england-54d29ae3af5c700f15d704c14ee224b5

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 07:12 AM
British study results:

20 million lives worldwide saved by COVID vaccine (1.9 million in the US):

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-england-54d29ae3af5c700f15d704c14ee224b5

Is this modeling estimate from the same Imperial College whose modeling grossly overestimated covid deaths at the start of the pandemic?

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 07:26 AM
Vaccines work.

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 07:52 AM
Did you get covid after being vaccinated?

kazoolaw
June 24th, 2022, 08:14 AM
Admittedly anecdotally, we have a number of friends/acquaintances who were up to date with vacs and boosters coming down with long covid. And I understand the counter that without either/both they would have been much worse.

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 08:36 AM
Thanks for reviving a vaccine discussion. Maybe for the newer participants, they will come appreciate what we’ve been up against for 2.5 years and for why it got heated at times.

Obviously, the data supports getting a vaccine to prevent hospitalization and death.

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 08:38 AM
What data? Pfizer hasn't finished the court-ordered release of data yet.

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 08:42 AM
I’ll let someone else explain it to you, @dneal.

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 08:45 AM
They'll have to wait for Pfizer to release the remainder of the data first, otherwise they're "explaining" something they haven't reviewed.

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 08:58 AM
Fine with me. In the mean time I can enjoy the benefit..👍👍

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 08:59 AM
Make sure you mask, distance, and keep the proven remedy horse wormer on hand.

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 09:38 AM
While we wait, here are some "Pfizer documents" to review:

DOJ: Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History - Pfizer to Pay $2.3 Billion for Fraudulent Marketing (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history)

If the DOJ's own announcement isn't sufficient, there's also:

ABC: Pfizer fined $2.3 billion for illegal marketing in off-label drug case (https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pfizer-fined-23-billion-illegal-marketing-off-label/story?id=8477617)

Note this article points out that "As part of the settlement, Pfizer PFE will pay a criminal fine of $1.195 billion, the largest criminal fine ever imposed in the USA for any matter, according to the Justice Department."

More interesting tidbits from the piece:


In an interview Wednesday with USA TODAY, former Pfizer sales representative John Kopchinski said he was told to distribute 20-milligram samples to rheumatologists and orthopedists, even though the FDA had approved only 10-milligram doses for arthritis. The 20-milligram doses were approved only for menstrual pain, yet Kopchinski says he never called on gynecologists or other doctors who would treat that complaint.

Danged Pharma sales reps.

For some reason, this one demonstrated integrity and became a whistleblower


In 2003, Kopchinski, 45, a West Point graduate, filed the first whistle-blower lawsuit, leading to the Justice Department investigation.

What was this pharmaceutical company's response?


When Kopchinski began questioning Pfizer's marketing of Bextra and sued, Pfizer fired him, a violation of the anti-retaliation provision of the federal False Claims Act

Pfizer can't seem to help violating the law. I wonder what their motive could be? Maybe Drugmaker makes $37bn in vaccine sales and predicts bumper year ahead from Covid jabs and pill (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/08/pfizer-covid-vaccine-pill-profits-sales)

So to be clear. A pharmaceutical company with a track record of fraud, including bribes/kickbacks to doctors, who holds the record for the largest fine for these misdeeds; also is having record profits with their covid shot.

Linking articles that won't be read is a bit tedious, so I'll just add this summation:


Pfizer received the biggest fine in U.S. history as part of a $2.3 Billion plea deal with federal prosecutors for mis-promoting medicines (Bextra, Celebrex) and paying kickbacks to compliant doctors. Pfizer pleaded guilty to mis-branding the painkiller Bextra by promoting the drug for uses for which it was not approved.
In the 1990s, Pfizer was involved in defective heart valves that lead to the deaths of more than 100 people. Pfizer had deliberately misled regulators about the hazards. The company agreed to pay $10.75 Million to settle justice department charges for misleading regulators.
Pfizer paid more than $60 Million to settle a lawsuit over Rezulin, a diabetes medication that caused patients to die from acute liver failure.
In the UK, Pfizer has been fined nearly €90 Million for overcharging the NHS, the National Health Service. Pfizer charged the taxpayer an additional €48 Million per year for what should have cost €2 million per year.
Pfizer agreed to pay $430 Million in 2004 to settle criminal charges that it had bribed doctors to prescribe its epilepsy drug Neurontin for indications for which it was not approved.
In 2011, a jury found Pfizer committed racketeering fraud in its marketing of the drug Neurontin. Pfizer agreed to pay $142.1 Million to settle the charges.
Pfizer disclosed that it had paid nearly nearly 4,500 doctors and other medical professionals some $20 Million for speaking on Pfizer’s behalf.
In 2012, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission announced that it had reached a $45 Million settlement with Pfizer to resolve charges that its subsidiaries had bribed overseas doctors and other healthcare professionals to increase foreign sales.
Pfizer was sued in a U.S. federal court for using Nigerian children as human guinea pigs, without the childrens’ parents’ consent. Pfizer paid $75 Million to settle in Nigerian court for using an experimental antibiotic, Trovan, on the children. The company paid an additional undisclosed amount in the U.S. to settle charges here. Pfizer had violated international law, including the Nuremberg Convention established after WWII, due to Nazi experiments on unwilling prisoners.
Amid widespread criticism of gouging poor countries for drugs, Pfizer pledged to give $50 million for an AIDS drug to South Africa. Later, however, Pfizer failed to honor that promise.



Pardon me if I exhibit a little skepticism and cynicism. It seems warranted, given the track record.

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 10:06 AM
Post something that says it’s better to take a horse wormer than a Covid-19 vaccine.

You’re posts are “whataboutthis”!

TSherbs
June 24th, 2022, 11:08 AM
20 million lives saved.

I just had Covid, so I must wait for my next booster. But I will for sure be getting one in August or September.

I am still testing positive, 12 days later. Not everyone clears this virus as quickly as others.

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 11:15 AM
Post something that says it’s better to take a horse wormer than a Covid-19 vaccine.

Strawman, attempted argument from ridicule.

I've never said it's better to take a "horse wormer" than a covid shot. I've advocated exploring the potential that ivermectin is an early treatment.


You’re posts are “whataboutthis”!

Red Herring

My post is documentation that Pfizer has a long track record of unethical and illegal activity, and is generating enormous profit from the pandemic. Since they have bribed doctors to speak on their behalf, and misled regulators; it is reasonable to question if they are doing that again, given the money involved.

Similarly, the lack of transparency in making their data available for a publicly funded "vaccine", requiring a court order, further prompts reasonable skepticism.

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 12:27 PM
20 million lives saved.

Since reiteration seems to be the thing…

Is this modeling estimate from the same Imperial College whose modeling grossly overestimated covid deaths at the start of the pandemic?

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 02:40 PM
20 million lives saved.

I just had Covid, so I must wait for my next booster. But I will for sure be getting one in August or September.

I am still testing positive, 12 days later. Not everyone clears this virus as quickly as others.

Good for you, Ted. As always, usually, a voice of reason and evidenced based posts.

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 02:41 PM
Strawman, attempted argument from ridicule.

I've never said it's better to take a "horse wormer" than a covid shot. I've advocated exploring the potential that ivermectin is an early treatment.


You’re posts are “whataboutthis”!

Red Herring

My post is documentation that Pfizer has a long track record of unethical and illegal activity, and is generating enormous profit from the pandemic. Since they have bribed doctors to speak on their behalf, and misled regulators; it is reasonable to question if they are doing that again, given the money involved.

Similarly, the lack of transparency in making their data available for a publicly funded "vaccine", requiring a court order, further prompts reasonable skepticism.

Get a vaccine or don’t ask for an ICU bed, @dneal.

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 02:45 PM
I don't take medical advice from pharmaceutical reps with financial interest in pharmaceutical companies. Thanks for your concern though.

Do you have anything on the topic to add?

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 02:50 PM
I don't take medical advice from pharmaceutical reps with financial interest in pharmaceutical companies. Thanks for your concern though.

Do you have anything on the topic to add?

I don’t blame you, but you also don’t take advice from anyone except those promoting horse workers……. 😂😂😂😂👘

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 02:51 PM
Wormers

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 03:57 PM
I don’t believe anyone was promoting horse workers or wormers.

Chuck Naill
June 24th, 2022, 04:15 PM
Lol, you were the resident conspiracy theory king. You didn’t vote, supported trump and pence, your wife, but not your got a vaccine. Dneal, you can fool the new members, but not all. Just don’t ask a nurse to save your ass. Own your opinion

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 04:26 PM
Chuck, you continue to mistake your opinions of my opinions for my actual opinions.

As usual though, feel free to cite the posts. Own your opinion, as you said.

I’ll save you a little effort though, for the portion you have correct. My wife was vaccinated, I was not.

TSherbs
June 24th, 2022, 05:17 PM
another thread, just dneal and Chuck doing their dance

dneal
June 24th, 2022, 07:45 PM
another thread, just dneal and Chuck doing their dance

You would have more credibility if you weren’t wearing tap shoes. But by all means, continue the drive-by shitposting.

At least this one wasn't laden with a Yosemite Sam like string of "f*ck" and all its variations.

Chuck Naill
June 25th, 2022, 07:49 AM
Obviously, the virus has been lethal to over one million in the US. The US did a horrible, ineffective job from the private to federal levels. Institutions didn’t communicate well and political people were ineffective.

However, there were a core of citizens, scientists, and medical people who were consistent. I count myself as one of them. I began to mask and distance on April 3 , 2020. I endured odd looks and stupid comments.

Nothing that I have read by people who are infectious disease experts has resulted in me thinking I acted wrongly.

If an Omicron infection, as the one I experienced, is as bad as it gets, Im a happy camper.

dneal
June 25th, 2022, 07:59 AM
70842

Chuck Naill
June 25th, 2022, 08:05 AM
Thank you. You’ve just reminded me why I don’t post stupid photos or videos.

Since you haven’t chosen to vaccinate or any other preventative measure, what variant you might come in contact is something you’ll have to either contract or choose isolate to isolate or be cavalier. For me, I just go about my daily life as normal.

I’m all for informed consent. I don’t care what you choose, but posting incorrect information is important and I’ll let you know when you do it publicly.

TSherbs
June 25th, 2022, 08:16 AM
Thank you. You’ve just reminded me why I don’t post stupid photos or videos.

He's just trolling with that bullshit. Ignore it.

dneal
June 25th, 2022, 08:27 AM
It's a joke, Chuck. Here's another.

70843

dneal
June 25th, 2022, 08:40 AM
Thank you. You’ve just reminded me why I don’t post stupid photos or videos.

He's just trolling with that bullshit. Ignore it.


You can see the general topic of this thread without delving into it. You can see who created the thread as well. You have some experience with where this is going to go - because Chuck - but you pop in and post a random whine about it with another random shitpost. Some might even call that trolling.

Hypocrite.

Chuck Naill
June 25th, 2022, 08:41 AM
Here is one for you, @dneal.

If you want to help people, you tell them the truth. If you want to help yourself yourself, you tell them what they want to hear. Thomas Sowell.

Should be obvious what you’re doing.

dneal
June 25th, 2022, 08:43 AM
Again, you think that "truth" is some objective thing we just discover and then it's settled.

Science is about questioning, not proclaiming.

--edit--

For the record, I really just wanted to post a "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!" meme. :)

Chuck Naill
June 25th, 2022, 08:51 AM
Truth is, vaccines work. Maybe not for all or even 100 percent, but there is truth regarding their legitimate use.

Since you chose not to do anything, you want to suggest that you are following truth. No medical scientist would agree that doing nothing is a better choice.

Like I’ve said, do what you want. Be informed or not. I know you’re not stupid, but you do tend to paint yourself into a corner.

dneal
June 25th, 2022, 09:03 AM
Truth is, vaccines work. Maybe not for all or even 100 percent, but there is truth regarding their legitimate use.

And there is truth in legitimate concerns.


Since you chose not to do anything, you want to suggest that you are following truth. No medical scientist would agree that doing nothing is a better choice.

I didn't choose to "do nothing". I examined the data available and chose to trust my immune system to protect me against a virus with a 99% survival rate.


Like I’ve said, do what you want. Be informed or not. I know you’re not stupid, but you do tend to paint yourself into a corner.

Chuck, I am informed, and continue to refine that. Many credentialed and credible people express concerns about this "vaccine". You and others refuse to consider the content or merit of their reasoning, and label them to make dismissal more convenient. That's the opposite of being informed. Your illogic paints you into a corner. You make absolute claims. Being open to information and being willing to change views as more data is available is (again) the opposite.

Chuck Naill
June 25th, 2022, 09:15 AM
I realize you think you are informed. The insurrection participants thought the same .

TSherbs
June 25th, 2022, 09:54 AM
Thank you. You’ve just reminded me why I don’t post stupid photos or videos.

He's just trolling with that bullshit. Ignore it.


You can see the general topic of this thread without delving into it. You can see who created the thread as well. You have some experience with where this is going to go - because Chuck - but you pop in and post a random whine about it with another random shitpost. Some might even call that trolling.

Hypocrite.

You and he end up spinning these stupid circles around each other on thread after thread, mirror man. Dozens and dozens of times.

Chuck Naill
June 25th, 2022, 10:07 AM
Thank you. You’ve just reminded me why I don’t post stupid photos or videos.

He's just trolling with that bullshit. Ignore it.


You can see the general topic of this thread without delving into it. You can see who created the thread as well. You have some experience with where this is going to go - because Chuck - but you pop in and post a random whine about it with another random shitpost. Some might even call that trolling.

Hypocrite.

You and he end up spinning these stupid circles around each other on thread after thread, mirror man. Dozens and dozens of times.

Ted, stop trying to be someone you’ve shown you’re not able to be. It’s not like your the purveyor or better more more reliable information. Your fuckfests are a testament against your hall monitor attempts.

Chuck Naill
June 25th, 2022, 12:12 PM
If abortion is not legal, forced vaccines are also not legal. I’m pro choice, but only an informed type.

Chip
July 1st, 2022, 12:09 PM
Where’s the herd immunity? Our research shows why Covid is still wreaking havoc
Danny Altmann

‘Living with the virus’ is proving much harder than the early vaccine success suggested: this fight is far from over

Danny Altmann is a professor of immunology at Imperial College London

Fri 1 Jul 2022 10.54 EDT

We are all so very tired of Covid-19, and there are many other crises to wrestle with. This pandemic has been going on since the beginning of 2020, and a state of hypervigilance can only be maintained for so long. And yet, “just live with it” looks self-evidently too thin a recipe and, currently, not very workable or successful with the emergence of BA.4 and BA.5 Omicron subvariants.

According to the latest numbers, released today, the UK added more than half a million new Covid infections in the past week, and the estimated number of people with Covid in total was somewhere between 3% and 4% of the population.

Many have been rather unwell and off work or school, with the associated disruptions to education, healthcare and other vital services. These infections will also inevitably add to the toll of long Covid cases. According to ONS data, the supposedly “mild” waves of Omicron during 2022 have brought more than 619,000 new long Covid cases into the clinical caseload, promising an enduring and miserable legacy from this latest phase.

Rather than a wall of immunity arising from vaccinations and previous infections, we are seeing wave after wave of new cases and a rapidly growing burden of long-term disease. What’s going on? The latest scientific research has some answers.

During May and June two new variants, BA.4 and BA.5, progressively displaced the previous Omicron subvariant, BA.2. They are even more transmissible and more immune-evasive. Last week a group of collaborators, including me and a professor of immunology and respiratory medicine, Rosemary Boyton, published a paper in Science, looking comprehensively at immunity to the Omicron family, both in triple-vaccinated people and also in those who then suffered breakthrough infections during the Omicron wave. This lets us examine whether Omicron was, as some hoped, a benign natural booster of our Covid immunity. It turns out that isn’t the case.

We considered many facets of immunity, including the antibodies most implicated in protection (“neutralising antibodies”), as well as protective “immune memory” in white blood cells. The results tell us it is unsurprising that breakthrough infections were so common. Most people – even when triple-vaccinated – had 20 times less neutralising antibody response against Omicron than against the initial “Wuhan” strain. Importantly, Omicron infection was a poor booster of immunity to further Omicron infections. It is a kind of stealth virus that gets in under the radar without doing too much to alert immune defences. Even having had Omicron, we’re not well protected from further infections.

Also, to be added to the now complex mix is “immune imprinting”. This is the finding that our immune response to Covid is shaped very differently, depending on our prior exposures – infection in one wave relative to another, plus vaccination. In our study, those who’d been infected in the first wave and then again with Omicron had particularly poor T-cell responses and no boosting of antibodies. That is, some combinations of exposures may leave us poorly protected relative to others.

Contrary to the myth that we are sliding into a comfortable evolutionary relationship with a common-cold-like, friendly virus, this is more like being trapped on a rollercoaster in a horror film. There’s nothing cold-like or friendly about a large part of the workforce needing significant absences from work, feeling awful and sometimes getting reinfected over and over again, just weeks apart. And that’s before the risk of long Covid. While we now know that the risk of long Covid is somewhat reduced in those who become infected after vaccination, and also less in those from the Omicron than the Delta wave, the absolute numbers are nevertheless worrying.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/01/herd-immunity-covid-virus-vaccine?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

TSherbs
July 1st, 2022, 12:19 PM
Yeah, I was recently much more sick than a "common cold." These bugs keep mutating, as is their wont.

Chuck Naill
July 1st, 2022, 05:39 PM
Our immune response will be a predictor of what Covid experience.

Chuck Naill
July 2nd, 2022, 08:40 AM
Remember him?
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/01/us/vladimir-zelenko-dead.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE IPuonUktbfqYhkT1UbAibIRp85qhSKhP3O2vkui3vzKiuSDDpP xuhTA5SF_w2FQ5tfUOYJ_mbRQs5dYvhoTeZuz-RbMgs9FFmkr8rYk9ELLnlr7N-5AGhz1ZmSUPVn_GS2NGPkIrwjnez19wiLPzmRLa_c0HcnIAhuo pF3Jxr9iTFTmPCzQqMi0cJ-3PwhGpl_WT4AASGMtPTqAB11U86UOlCeskJlHrEEBkyA2IKU-LkCcw5NCFzZTHwZ4Ws07dpUO9p_L79hFaT2DxCnRpYZnMFs-uOE&smid=nytcore-ios-share

TFarnon
July 8th, 2022, 12:56 PM
Just so you all know: I'm starting to see signals consistent with COVID infection again. I don't work directly with COVID. I work with Qiagen's Quantiferon Gold Plus TB test. Yes, it's a test for tuberculosis (recent and historical) infection. But the principle of the test is such that indeterminate-low mitogen results are seen in severe COVID. The number of indeterminate test results had plummeted, and those that I saw were mostly due to immunosuppression or immunosuppresive medications. We track those indeterminate results and any explanations because before we started running the test in-house, we were getting about 50% of all test results as indeterminate. The number of severe COVID cases is rising, too. It's nowhere like it was a few months ago--yet.

I'm trying to decide whether I should get the booster for the old strain now, even though it might be pretty useless, and then get the new booster when it comes out this fall; or just wait for fall and get the new booster. There's also the question of maybe having to get a monkeypox/smallpox booster. I know that I've been just about boostered into smallpox oblivion because of my military service, childhood overseas travel and when I was born, but it's still on my radar. I like to keep at least three weeks between viral vaccinations so that they "take" as fully as possible.

I'm pretty sure I've had multiple COVID exposures--every so often I just feel like crap and my axillary lymph nodes swell, just as I did about 24 hours after each dose of the vaccine. I didn't, and don't feel crappy enough to take to my bed, but it's noticeable all the same. I figure that's just me fighting off the full infection...again. I mean, I work in a hospital. The cooties are everywhere. That said, my T-cells kick immunological ass. They don't kick enough ass to cause autoimmune disease, but they just shrug at most vaccines, digest the antigenic information, file it away, and charge out swinging when challenged again.

TSherbs
July 8th, 2022, 02:53 PM
Whatever the fuck strain I got three weeks ago kicked my ass for a week and took me 16 days to clear. And I am a teacher with a good immune system. But hell, I felt terrible (I slept at times on the bathroom floor and I am 60+ years old). I am getting every shot/booster that they offer.

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Chuck Naill
July 9th, 2022, 06:53 AM
Multiple doses and infections build resistance. The goal for me is to return to normal and if I contract, have a mild experience. So far, that's been my experience. I'd hate running blind trying to avoid.

Lloyd
July 14th, 2022, 11:58 PM
Multiple doses and infections build resistance. The goal for me is to return to normal and if I contract, have a mild experience. So far, that's been my experience. I'd hate running blind trying to avoid.
Multiple infections can lead to long Covid. BA5 may escape prior immune system "training".

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Chuck Naill
July 18th, 2022, 06:15 AM
Multiple doses and infections build resistance. The goal for me is to return to normal and if I contract, have a mild experience. So far, that's been my experience. I'd hate running blind trying to avoid.
Multiple infections can lead to long Covid. BA5 may escape prior immune system "training".

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Multiple doses plus having an infection is what I meant. However, I have not read that having multiple infections is what causes long Covid. I actually think long term symptoms is not just with one virus. I was bitten by a tick in 2015 and continues to experience symptoms into 2019.

Bold2013
July 18th, 2022, 08:37 AM
TF hoping you have a speedy recovery

kazoolaw
July 18th, 2022, 04:16 PM
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-07-survey-covid-vaccine-recipients-menstrual.html

welch
July 18th, 2022, 05:11 PM
I remember discussing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine about a year ago in a thread that insisted that the anti-covid vaccines kill people. The CDC had released their findings that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines had killed no-one, but that they were investigating deaths that might have been associated with the J&J one-shot vaccine. Soon enough, the CDC suggested that the J&J vaccine only be used for people who might not otherwise take a vaccine, most often because they had no fixed home or because vaccines could not be refrigerated wherever they are.

That was following the science.

Why this debate? Why now?

Lloyd
July 18th, 2022, 11:03 PM
For those interested, this is a video from one of the best math related video people on the internet, three blue one Brown, that analyzes the spread of pandemics in a generalized way. It is not analytic in the way he displays it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

TSherbs
July 19th, 2022, 07:23 AM
For those interested, this is a video from one of the best math related video people on the internet, three blue one Brown, that analyzes the spread of pandemics in a generalized way. It is not analytic in the way he displays it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect[emoji769]Wow. That's fantastic.

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Lloyd
July 19th, 2022, 10:30 AM
If you have any interest in math, you should check out his other videos. He goes by "Three Blue One Brown".

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Chuck Naill
July 22nd, 2022, 06:39 AM
Might be worth reading regarding Omicron.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/22/opinion/covid-omicron-variants-reinfection.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka 3DKDmwYiOMNAo6B_EGKbq19Ztd22DGaT8VGNvoxTeZzx-lDJAl3RgiurJaPhJUCJWM1tYe3FCsQ7q76YIoZo3Xsf3Xrb6B2 3qG-tBaLdzPgXKTUhid3OA5np5V6cVqr3WhbwP_GDrMh0tZ_1fgrAs 9wRywSJ3Xf54meAB18OtiBaBHc6BBnGL0KHGGOwqPPru4IYw5Q ClnZTX1g4m1a6NhUOtIfPKiXPAd3MYOlwu1XUjo0Wd_vU54hRI HUlKFouKrNqXGPy8m3zvY1EsZErelNFmKTlzyX45bIwCOq0DM&smid=url-share

TSherbs
July 26th, 2022, 05:07 PM
Two more studies on COVID origin (conclusion: Wuhan market):

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-china-pandemics-bcbe39293f5c041f82665f55c39062c1

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Lloyd
July 27th, 2022, 12:37 AM
Study proves COVID outbreak originated at Wuhan food market, Utah researcher says


https://www.ksl.com/article/50446675/study-proves-covid-outbreak-originated-at-wuhan-food-market-utah-researcher-says

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

TSherbs
July 28th, 2022, 12:22 PM
Looks like new studies suggest that a 5-day quarantine isn't as effective as an 8+ day quarantine (if one is trying to impede the spread of the virus):

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/data-suggests-cdc-covid-guidance-071259503.html

Chuck Naill
July 28th, 2022, 12:33 PM
I've scheduled my second booster Monday morning.

dneal
July 28th, 2022, 01:39 PM
Why not wait for the Omicron booster?

Chuck Naill
July 28th, 2022, 01:48 PM
I've already had Omicron aka weak bad cold.

TSherbs
July 28th, 2022, 01:52 PM
I've scheduled my second booster Monday morning.

I never got my second booster, but I got COVID last month (I don't know what strain). Now, I'm not eligible for a little bit. I'll see what my doctor says. I'll definitely be getting whatever is offered in the fall, including flu shot. My wife is still teaching and will be in the soup every day.

Chuck Naill
July 28th, 2022, 02:03 PM
I've scheduled my second booster Monday morning.

I never got my second booster, but I got COVID last month (I don't know what strain). Now, I'm not eligible for a little bit. I'll see what my doctor says. I'll definitely be getting whatever is offered in the fall, including flu shot. My wife is still teaching and will be in the soup every day.

Why are you not eligible? I contracted Omicron last Spring. Stay safe, Ted.

TSherbs
July 28th, 2022, 02:07 PM
I've scheduled my second booster Monday morning.

I never got my second booster, but I got COVID last month (I don't know what strain). Now, I'm not eligible for a little bit. I'll see what my doctor says. I'll definitely be getting whatever is offered in the fall, including flu shot. My wife is still teaching and will be in the soup every day.

Why are you not eligible? I contracted Omicron last Spring. Stay safe, Ted.

You have to wait for a while to get a booster after you have been sick. But getting the actual thing is another way to "boost" the immune system (although I do not prefer this "natural" method).

Chuck Naill
July 28th, 2022, 07:56 PM
I've scheduled my second booster Monday morning.

I never got my second booster, but I got COVID last month (I don't know what strain). Now, I'm not eligible for a little bit. I'll see what my doctor says. I'll definitely be getting whatever is offered in the fall, including flu shot. My wife is still teaching and will be in the soup every day.

Why are you not eligible? I contracted Omicron last Spring. Stay safe, Ted.

You have to wait for a while to get a booster after you have been sick. But getting the actual thing is another way to "boost" the immune system (although I do not prefer this "natural" method).

I waited because I had Omicron last Spring. From what you posted; it was milder than your experiences.

TSherbs
July 29th, 2022, 04:17 AM
Tough call. Glad I don't have to make it:

Which booster to promote: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/07/28/1114408611/summer-boosters-for-people-under-50-shelved-in-favor-of-updated-boosters-in-the

Chuck Naill
July 29th, 2022, 05:39 AM
Yep.

Chuck Naill
September 6th, 2022, 02:45 PM
It’s been awhile.

The new variants are covered in the new vaccine. I’m reminded of the Evangelicals who have chosen to not follow the science. I’m not trolling , but it demonstrates the depths for which some have sunk.