I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

[dneal]

I saw screenshots of Maryland Public School's Comprehensive Health Education Framework, and some of the things seemed a little odd. This is what we're teaching in schools?

I'm not a prude, and don't see anything wrong with "sex ed" (contraception, STI's, etc...) and reproductive biology in Jr. High and High School; but some of this seems a bit much for public schools to be taking on. Some of it seems like indoctrination, and now I understand why so many children are having questions about their own gender.

Are these topics appropriate for elementary students (Pre-K onward)?

Pre-K "Gender identity and expression
K - Medicine Use
2 - Alcohol, nicotine, vaping
3 - How to use medicines correctly
3 - Harmful effects of alcohol
4 - Sexual orientation and/or romantic involvement
5 - Suicide prevention
6 - Depression
6 - Addiction
6 - Sex assigned at birth
7 - (Middle school or Jr. High depending on the district, but seriously?) Identify solo, vaginal, anal and oral sex

The link is HERE (https://marylandpublicschools.org/about/Documents/DCAA/Health/HealthEducationFramework_Final.pdf), and I'll post some screenshots of pages. The "Family Life and Human Sexuality" section begins on pg 21.

[dneal]

69738
69739
69740
69741

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I suspect that there is a strong correlation between this and the fact that your country is now mostly known for being litigious.

[Medievalist]

Not all people are straight
Male
White
Cis-Gendered

Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
or your dad is a single parent
Or you have two dads and no mom
or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American — you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

Or

If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities — or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body — if you feel like you're broken —

What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?

[Chuck Naill]

I never had anyone tell me to like girls. I suspect that others are the same

[Lloyd]

Not all people are straight
Male
White
Cis-Gendered

Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
or your dad is a single parent
Or you have two dads and no mom
or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American — you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

Or

If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities — or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body — if you feel like you're broken —

What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?
Equally bad is when only a few fall into the "do not discuss" group, and the rest of the class ostracizes them. That can lead to wounds that never heal.

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[Empty_of_Clouds]

Social construction and the hidden curriculum. Hopefully addressing the first will impact the second.

[dneal]

I don't have a problem with the issues themselves. One can be or do whatever they want (after the age of consent and/or majority).

My biggest issue is that there aren't additional hours in the day, however, so something within the traditional education scheme would be getting shorted. Might explain why I discovered my son never learned the days of the months, for example.

Some of the topics just seem weird. Teaching 3rd graders how to use medicines correctly? Seems a little early, and not necessarily the responsibility of the school system.

Lastly are the controversial topics, where opinions can vary across a spectrum. I don't think it's the school's responsibility to address many of them, particularly at the ages they are introduced. A less controversial issue for an example would be a 1st grade class on "Santa doesn't exist". Some people may not practice that tradition, some may want their children to know it's a myth, and some may want to keep it for nostalgia or whatever reason. Those are parental decisions, in my mind. Yeah, it's not a perfect analogy and kids usually find out from their peers anyway; but let's not disregard the principle to pick at the example. Offer a better one if you prefer.

Point being I can see enough parents pressuring their politicians to "ban" certain topics for certain ages; which is what my understanding of the Florida law is. "No introduction or discussion of these topics before age x...".

[Medievalist]

I never had anyone tell me to like girls. I suspect that others are the same

I never did either but even now, as an out Lesbian in a stable relationship, I still get people trying to convince me that I'm "wasting" my life, or asking me why I don't "try" a guy, or trying to fix me up with a guy even though they know I'm in a monogamous Lesbian relationship.

Here's something to think about, if you're straight.

The Heterosexual Questionnaire.
(https://www.uwgb.edu/UWGBCMS/media/pride-center/files/pdf/Heterosexual_Questionnaire.pdf)
It was devised as a teaching exercise for College students.

[Medievalist]

I don't have a problem with the issues themselves. One can be or do whatever they want (after the age of consent and/or majority).

My biggest issue is that there aren't additional hours in the day, however, so something within the traditional education scheme would be getting shorted. Might explain why I discovered my son never learned the days of the months, for example.

Some of the topics just seem weird. Teaching 3rd graders how to use medicines correctly? Seems a little early, and not necessarily the responsibility of the school system..

It's basically the same thing you probably got: Don't take candy from strangers. Don't take someone else's medication. The document is written for and from the persepctive of educators, not parents.

[TSherbs]

I never had anyone tell me to like girls....

Yes you did.

In our culture we are awash in the tyranny of a binary, heterosexual paradigm. We are so saturated with it that we often say, "No one tells me to be straight" when actually that is the farthest thing from the truth. We are told this in our families, in our churches, synogogues, and mosques, in our schools, in our books, in our peer conversations, in our music, in our relative networks, in our books, plays, theater and advertizing through all of media. We are told this with our toys and games. We are inundated with the message that heterosexuality is the preferred paradigm. I am in my sixties, and through my first twenty years I was told that this was in fact the only paradigm: that anything else was deviancy and sin, both to be wary of and ashamed of. And I grew up in a fairly liberal household of the times.

But yes, most of us actually have a sexual orientation regardless of all this messaging, which I think was your point. My point is that heterosexuality has its axis reinforced in nearly every way. All the other identities and practices, many equally rooted in childhood and not caused by messaging, have to exist in opposition to this tyranny of the hetero paradigm. There are no identities, no behaviors, no inclinations, no confusions, no explorations that are new today to the human species that did not exist in the history of human societies and culture. Gender identity and sexual practices have ranged all over the place and have been fluid and difficult to package and label and contain, especially for those who react to difference with fear.

[Lloyd]

Regarding the discussions of "promiscuous" behaviors, many parents view the world, or wish the world still was, the same as in their youth. However, the internet has changed all that. Kids can, and will, see intense things that can have a profound and lasting negative impact on them if they're not prepared. Unfortunately, parents and lawmakers don't always view the world of kids from its current and near future state.

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[TSherbs]

Regarding the discussions of "promiscuous" behaviors, ...

I'm curious, what are you quoting here?

[Lloyd]

Look at grades 7-8 in the last table

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[Lloyd]

I never had anyone tell me to like girls. I suspect that others are the same

I never did either but even now, as an out Lesbian in a stable relationship, I still get people trying to convince me that I'm "wasting" my life, or asking me why I don't "try" a guy, or trying to fix me up with a guy even though they know I'm in a monogamous Lesbian relationship.

Here's something to think about, if you're straight.

The Heterosexual Questionnaire.
(https://www.uwgb.edu/UWGBCMS/media/pride-center/files/pdf/Heterosexual_Questionnaire.pdf)
It was devised as a teaching exercise for College students.
OMG! The Heterosexual Questionnaire is phenomenal!

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[TSherbs]

Look at grades 7-8 in the last table

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I did. I did not see the word "promiscuity" anywhere. But maybe I missed it. Did I? Or where you making a point about a term (and not quoting something)? I only ask because I am an educator and have to deal with these matters. The materials we use would never use that term for sexual activity.

[Bold2013]

And this is why the American education system is the best in the world.

[Lloyd]

Look at grades 7-8 in the last table

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I did. I did not see the word "promiscuity" anywhere. But maybe I missed it. Did I? Or where you making a point about a term (and not quoting something)? I only ask because I am an educator and have to deal with these matters. The materials we use would never use that term for sexual activity.
I just didn't quote the document as it's over several regions. I was talking about the sexual activity discussions. They are more diverse than what I was taught as well as sounding more explicit. Given that I was raised in the suburbs and that I'm 58 now, I think it's justified that they learn this despite my not learning it.

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[Lloyd]

And this is why the American education system is the best in the world.
We attained or low ranking before all of this was added. America lack appreciation of teachers. It lacks adequate support for the sciences, mathematics. Look at the salaries of most middle and high school teachers. Any good mathematician is going to go into industry over teaching just to make more money.

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[TSherbs]

Not all people are straight
Male
White
Cis-Gendered

Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
or your dad is a single parent
Or you have two dads and no mom
or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American — you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

Or

If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities — or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body — if you feel like you're broken —

What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?




Look at grades 7-8 in the last table

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I did. I did not see the word "promiscuity" anywhere. But maybe I missed it. Did I? Or where you making a point about a term (and not quoting something)? I only ask because I am an educator and have to deal with these matters. The materials we use would never use that term for sexual activity.
I just didn't quote the document as it's over several regions. I was talking about the sexual activity discussions. They are more diverse than what I was taught as well as sounding more explicit. Given that I was raised in the suburbs and that I'm 58 now, I think it's justified that they learn this despite my not learning it.

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I see now. And I agree.

[TSherbs]

Not all people are straight
Male
White
Cis-Gendered

Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
or your dad is a single parent
Or you have two dads and no mom
or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American — you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

Or

If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities — or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body — if you feel like you're broken —

What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?



And this is why the American education system is the best in the world.
We attained or low ranking before all of this was added. America lack appreciation of teachers. It lacks adequate support for the sciences, mathematics. Look at the salaries of most middle and high school teachers. Any good mathematician is going to go into industry over teaching just to make more money.

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We recently had 60 applicants for an English job. 5 for a math/programming position.

[dneal]

I don't have a problem with the issues themselves. One can be or do whatever they want (after the age of consent and/or majority).

My biggest issue is that there aren't additional hours in the day, however, so something within the traditional education scheme would be getting shorted. Might explain why I discovered my son never learned the days of the months, for example.

Some of the topics just seem weird. Teaching 3rd graders how to use medicines correctly? Seems a little early, and not necessarily the responsibility of the school system..

It's basically the same thing you probably got: Don't take candy from strangers. Don't take someone else's medication. The document is written for and from the persepctive of educators, not parents.

I didn’t get any of that in school. I agree about the perspective of the document. What is not being taught now, in order to fit these new topics in the curriculum, is what concerns me. Civics appears to be a victim.

[Lloyd]

I don't have a problem with the issues themselves. One can be or do whatever they want (after the age of consent and/or majority).

My biggest issue is that there aren't additional hours in the day, however, so something within the traditional education scheme would be getting shorted. Might explain why I discovered my son never learned the days of the months, for example.

Some of the topics just seem weird. Teaching 3rd graders how to use medicines correctly? Seems a little early, and not necessarily the responsibility of the school system..

It's basically the same thing you probably got: Don't take candy from strangers. Don't take someone else's medication. The document is written for and from the persepctive of educators, not parents.

I didn’t get any of that in school. I agree about the perspective of the document. What is not being taught now, in order to fit these new topics in the curriculum, is what concerns me. Civics appears to be a victim.
Hour about what's being taught poorly and dispassionately?

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[Bold2013]

And this is why the American education system is the best in the world.
We attained or low ranking before all of this was added. America lack appreciation of teachers. It lacks adequate support for the sciences, mathematics. Look at the salaries of most middle and high school teachers. Any good mathematician is going to go into industry over teaching just to make more money.

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Well this trend won’t help things.

Is following the money such a bad thing?

[Lloyd]

And this is why the American education system is the best in the world.
We attained or low ranking before all of this was added. America lack appreciation of teachers. It lacks adequate support for the sciences, mathematics. Look at the salaries of most middle and high school teachers. Any good mathematician is going to go into industry over teaching just to make more money.

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Well this trend won’t help things.

Is following the money such a bad thing?
No. Placing the money outside of public education IS a bad thing. How about spending less on football and more on STEM faculty?

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[Bold2013]

Well I don’t want public money going to teach kids anti science gender stuff.

[Lloyd]

Well I don’t want public money going to teach kids anti science gender stuff.
Where do you want them to learn this... surfing the net or with some other kids?

Taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed. Robert A. Heinlein



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[Lloyd]

Do you feel that religion, not broad theology but one specific faith, should be part of school?

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[Empty_of_Clouds]

Absolutely!

I can recommend the Church of Dave.

Runs every weekend and twice on Tuesdays.

All are welcome for brunch and may, if they are feeling energetic, spank their own chicken. :)




https://i.imgur.com/jiUmSMsm.jpg

[Lloyd]

Does chicken spanking lead to chicken choking or monkey spanking, which is said to cause hairy palms (not psalms) and blindness, then not on my dime. Besides, won't PETA complain?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Hey, I'm just following the science.

[Lloyd]

Hey, I'm just following the science.
Ah, the new math.

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[TSherbs]

You boys are bad.




edited for weird quote function result...

[Lloyd]

Not all people are straight
Male
White
Cis-Gendered

Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
or your dad is a single parent
Or you have two dads and no mom
or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American — you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

Or

If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities — or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body — if you feel like you're broken —

What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?

You boys are bad.
?

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[TSherbs]

Not all people are straight
Male
White
Cis-Gendered

Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
or your dad is a single parent
Or you have two dads and no mom
or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American — you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

Or

If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities — or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body — if you feel like you're broken —

What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?

You boys are bad.
?

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I meant you and EoC, of course. I don't know what happened with that quote function result....

[TSherbs]

Well I don’t want public money going to teach kids anti science gender stuff.

Gender is not *only* the genetic component, which, by the way, actually comes in more than the just two binary pairs. That's the genetic science.

[Bold2013]

And this is why people with “privilege” avoid government schools.

[Bold2013]

And why Virginia’s governor isn’t a democrat

[TSherbs]

And this is why people with “privilege” avoid government schools.

To avoid science and learning that some people are born with only one sex chromosome? Or with three? People avoid public schools to avoid these facts?

[Lloyd]

And this is why people with “privilege” avoid government schools.
Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?

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[dneal]

Equally bad is when only a few fall into the "do not discuss" group, and the rest of the class ostracizes them. That can lead to wounds that never heal.

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Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?


Regarding the discussions of "promiscuous" behaviors, many parents view the world, or wish the world still was, the same as in their youth. However, the internet has changed all that. Kids can, and will, see intense things that can have a profound and lasting negative impact on them if they're not prepared. Unfortunately, parents and lawmakers don't always view the world of kids from its current and near future state.

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Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Equally bad is when only a few fall into the "do not discuss" group, and the rest of the class ostracizes them. That can lead to wounds that never heal.

When I mentioned the hidden curriculum a few posts back it occurred to me that not every reader would be aware of what this referred to, so here is a short description, cribbed for your pleasure.


The term “hidden curriculum” refers to an amorphous collection of “implicit academic, social, and cultural messages,” “unwritten rules and unspoken expectations,” and “unofficial norms, behaviours and values” of the dominant-culture context in which all teaching and learning is situated.

Of note is the 'dominant-culture context' part, given that this relates - in the context of the current discussion - to the general binary perception of gender. At the School level, in Western cultures, this suggests that children will indeed learn that binary gender is normal and that anything other is not normal and to be oppressed. Those who are 'wounded' by not being seen as 'normal' often do carry that forward into adult life because the school space is ultimately a reflection of the wider social space.

[Lloyd]

Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?


Regarding the discussions of "promiscuous" behaviors, many parents view the world, or wish the world still was, the same as in their youth. However, the internet has changed all that. Kids can, and will, see intense things that can have a profound and lasting negative impact on them if they're not prepared. Unfortunately, parents and lawmakers don't always view the world of kids from its current and near future state.

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Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?
I didn't need to.... it's been done. It's been shown to be one of the causes of adolescent suicide. Often it is why there are closet LBGQT+.
See the Mayo Clinic's list of frequent triggers. It may be second to last on the list but that doesn't mean it's insignificant.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/tween-and-teen-health/in-depth/teen-suicide/art-20044308

dneal, either you truly weren't aware of this (that would be sad considering your level of awareness), you agree with DeSantis (oy...🙄), or you thought this subject wasn't serious enough that you couldn't act snarky.
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[dneal]

Were you being snarky to Bold?

You didn’t raise suicide until the last reply. Why would I assume that’s what you were talking about? Similarly, am I to derive “LBGQT+” from “promiscuous”? That association seems a bit libelous to that community, and not one I would make.

[Lloyd]

I was being snarky because I don't think the statement is true.
Regarding internet usage, here's from a quick look
https://hickorystreetcounseling.com/what-is-the-impact-of-using-internet-pornography-on-adolescent-development/

You didn't answer my question regarding your response, though. Why did you doubt my post? Didn't think internet viewing was impactful on youth, honest interest, or just to get into another battle?

[dneal]

Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/10JhviFuU2gWD6/giphy.gif?cid=790b76117aa374624584d85048639f0a4abd 127e2a4b1327&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[dneal]

Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/10JhviFuU2gWD6/giphy.gif?cid=790b76117aa374624584d85048639f0a4abd 127e2a4b1327&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.

[Chuck Naill]

I never had anyone tell me to like girls. I suspect that others are the same

I never did either but even now, as an out Lesbian in a stable relationship, I still get people trying to convince me that I'm "wasting" my life, or asking me why I don't "try" a guy, or trying to fix me up with a guy even though they know I'm in a monogamous Lesbian relationship.

Here's something to think about, if you're straight.

The Heterosexual Questionnaire.
(https://www.uwgb.edu/UWGBCMS/media/pride-center/files/pdf/Heterosexual_Questionnaire.pdf)
It was devised as a teaching exercise for College students.

👍👍 I’ve had people try to fix me up since I’m single. Hopefully their motivation is sincere.

[Lloyd]

dneal - I'm quite sincere in my belief that I think DeSantis is wrong. I'm quite sincere in my belief that it is cruel and bad for society to outlaw teaching the youth about sexuality. I think it's irresponsible for Americans to blame this as the cause of our weakened academics while knowing, and seemingly not caring, how low teachers get paid.
Now, dneal, what in this do you sincerely believe?
As you know, I also believe that you care less about the topics than you do about using the topics to try to challenge others' beliefs.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/10JhviFuU2gWD6/giphy.gif?cid=790b76117aa374624584d85048639f0a4abd 127e2a4b1327&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.

Oh, this is pretty much my reaction to anything you write that touches on sincerity, honesty, or integrity.

[dneal]

Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/10JhviFuU2gWD6/giphy.gif?cid=790b76117aa374624584d85048639f0a4abd 127e2a4b1327&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.

Oh, this is pretty much my reaction to anything you write that touches on sincerity, honesty, or integrity.

And I'm the one who's triggered... lol!!!

[Lloyd]

Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/10JhviFuU2gWD6/giphy.gif?cid=790b76117aa374624584d85048639f0a4abd 127e2a4b1327&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.

Oh, this is pretty much my reaction to anything you write that touches on sincerity, honesty, or integrity.

And I'm the one who's triggered... lol!!!
You still haven't stated your position on these issues. You've only raised the issue and then tried to taunt others.

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[Empty_of_Clouds]

Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/10JhviFuU2gWD6/giphy.gif?cid=790b76117aa374624584d85048639f0a4abd 127e2a4b1327&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.

Oh, this is pretty much my reaction to anything you write that touches on sincerity, honesty, or integrity.

And I'm the one who's triggered... lol!!!

It appear you don't understand the actual meaning of the term triggered. Interesting.

[dneal]

dneal - I'm quite sincere in my belief that I think DeSantis is wrong. I'm quite sincere in my belief that it is cruel and bad for society to outlaw teaching the youth about sexuality. I think it's irresponsible for Americans to blame this as the cause of our weakened academics while knowing, and seemingly not caring, how low teachers get paid.
Now, dneal, what in this do you sincerely believe?
As you know, I also believe that you care less about the topics than you do about using the topics to try to challenge others' beliefs.

I don't attribute it to DeSantis. He signed the legislation, but the legislature passed it. I think talking about sexual topics of any sort to elementary students is inappropriate, personally; but I think voters certainly have a right to determine what will be taught in the education system they pay for and send their children to. If more progressive parents want to discuss sexual or gender issues to their children, that's certainly their prerogative.

I think there are a lot of reasons for our weakened academics, and teacher's pay is certainly one of them. My property tax was ~ $1750 last year, and $1450 of it went to schools. The remaining $300 was distributed over 6 other categories (Fire, Roads, Library, General Revenue, etc...). Fire was the highest at $90. The money seems to be there, it's just not getting spent on teacher's salary. My sister in law has been a special-ed teacher for over 30 years, by the way.

----------

Now for the last issue. This is a response specifically to Lloyd, and I'm not particularly inclined to respond to or argue with others that want to jump in.

I will presume your question is in good faith (although I have reason not to), and this is the last time I intend to address it (there will be some reiteration):

You can believe what you want, or you can believe what I say. I have a pretty thorough history of candor here. I have no reason to lie and I'm not going to argue about it. Yes, this is my perspective, but I'll try to be as objective about it as I can. I am aware others have a differing perspective, I know what most of those are, but I believe many of those are wrong and can cite the evidence for that - but I don't see the point at this time.

I'm a natural skeptic. I question everything, to include (and maybe even particularly) my own opinions. That's why I enjoy hearing opposing views, challenging them to see how well they hold up, and having my own challenged. Although this part of the forum was usually not that busy, most topics were discussed by members acting like rational adults. Sure, it got a little heated on occasion, but all in all it was rational and respectful. I'll post links to those threads if you like.

That changed with Trump, and got even worse with Covid. Maybe that's just coincidental with changing societal tension, main stream and social media, and other nonsense and not directly related to Trump and Covid. Don't really care, but those two topics are the ones that are the most heated here now. It is hyper-partisan.

Given my nature, I asked a reasonable (and I thought innocent) question about the economic risk and danger of "lockdown" policies. Much to my surprise, that turned into a dumpster fire. I suddenly wanted old people to die. Apparently I still do, to some. Another similar thread was started here instead of in the lounge, and was full of intelligent discussion, aside from a few attempts at troublemaking. Mhosea, Dave, Ethernautrix, Dreck and many others who quit posting here as the nonsense and banal snipes increased.

The "I can't fathom this election" exacerbated the issue. I didn't start that thread, and the flames were lit starting with the first response (2nd post). I was genuinely curious about the left-leaning objection to Trump, aside from the talking-point level of political sniping. Yes, he's an obnoxious orange asshole. But what about his policy? That turned into "he's a racist/mysoginist/whatever". I conceded that, and reiterated my question with essentially no answer. Just "can't you see he's a racist/mysoginist/whatever?!?!?!"

Ok, I get the emotion and vitriol to some extent. I don't get how otherwise rational adults are unable to discuss difficult current events. The emotional responses still haven't stopped. The snide/vitriolic remarks still haven't stopped. I'm happy to cite many threads, and point out where they went off the rails (and who did it, because it's the same people). I welcome anyone pointing out where I was the culprit. They exist, and a few of them I even started.

Initially I assumed that pointing out the hypocrisy and vitriol would allow "cooler heads to prevail". Clearly I was wrong. I tried escalation to deescalate. I noted early on that I would respond in kind - "don't be an asshole and I won't either". I tried mimicking the behavior, and I tried mocking. That didn't work either. I tried contrition, which failed as well and seemed to encourage some to be more vitriolic.

So what was I left with? A forum where the reasonable people left, and the remainder consist of left-leaning groupthink focused on personalities and drama (as opposed to actual issues), particularly on some topics. A series of declarations of truth, where any contradictory position was "crazy", "conspiratorial", "Trumpist", or whatever slur seemed to apply. Certainly I could just give up and stop posting, but that's not my nature and this is "my" forum too. You mentioned something about challenging zealots. That's mainly what I'm left with. I realize I'm not going to change minds at this point, but I'm still not obligated to tolerate intolerance nor succumb to bullies who previously did not participate in this part of the forum. I can only treat it like a game at this point. "Doubles", as I noted earlier. I don't play to win or lose, just for the game itself. It's what Soldiers do when they're "hurrying up and waiting". I've done it for over 30 years. I'm pretty good at it, and it leads to a pretty thick skin.

I still wish it were otherwise. I do desperately wish this forum returned to its pre-Trump state. But if others are going to prevent that then I'll deal with the forum as it is, posting (or not) as it suits me. I still follow the "Don't be an asshole and I won't either" rule. None of that is hypocritical. I've been perfectly clear on when and why I'll be a dick, and it's why you primarily see it in response to certain posts and/or posters. As an aside, I do find it amazing that others either don't see their own behavior as dick-ish or won't admit to it. That's hypocritical.

[dneal]

You still haven't stated your position on these issues. You've only raised the issue and then tried to taunt others.

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Dude, I'm addressing them in order. Gimme a break ferchrissakes.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

“A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.” WOPR

[dneal]

It appear you don't understand the actual meaning of the term triggered. Interesting.

Sure I do. One example is when someone gets so upset they scurry off to another section of the forum like a little bitch, to post their off-topic whinging where they expect to garner sympathy, in hopes it might make them feel like a martyr instead of a pariah.

Just because you get triggered and wring your hands about everything from whether you should refer to yourself in 3rd person, yet another pen that you have problems with, or whether a gift arrived as soon as you wanted; doesn't mean everyone else does.

You said you served in the NZ military, so I assume you understand about bitching (and by your posts over the years, I suspect you were a primary culprit). I've supervised or commanded thousands of you whiners. At a certain point, you don't care because they're not going to stop and it's irrelevant.

So "go fuck yourself you miserable little shit" was not me being triggered, it was flatly stating in very clear terms my final position on the latest incessant hand-wringing you chose to subject us to, because I was no longer going to indulge your continuous weaseling.

[Lloyd]

I've supervised or commanded thousands of you whiners.....

So "go fuck yourself you miserable little shit" was not me being triggered, it was flatly stating in very clear terms my final position on the latest incessant hand-wringing you chose to subject us to, because I was no longer going to indulge your continuous weaseling.

Firstly, you don't command anymore. Secondly, you blame many others' behaviors and specific world events for your own actions. A commander should be able to rise above the fog, not get enmeshed in it.

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[Empty_of_Clouds]

Never said I served in the NZ military. :) I guess facts aren't your strong suit either, along with poor impulse control, insincerity, lack of ethics and dishonesty. And look at all those naughty words. As Hari Seldon* stated 'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'. Personally I've always thought that excessive use of expletives in men was due to either low educational standard, or the need to compensate for something missing (usually a sense of manhood).



*For those who don't read sci-fi, this is a character in the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov

[dneal]

I've supervised or commanded thousands of you whiners.....

So "go fuck yourself you miserable little shit" was not me being triggered, it was flatly stating in very clear terms my final position on the latest incessant hand-wringing you chose to subject us to, because I was no longer going to indulge your continuous weaseling.

Firstly, you don't command anymore. Secondly, you blame many others' behaviors and specific world events for your own actions. A commander should be able to rise above the fog, not get enmeshed in it.

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Firstly, not commanding anymore has nothing to do with anything; certainly not my experience with whiny little bitches.

Secondly, I recognize my part and their part; and comment as I like. It is amusing that you point out that I don't command anymore, but then determine what a commander should be able to do. I don't command anymore, remember?

Lastly, thanks for confirming your duplicity (and hypocrisy) and that my good faith attempt was misplaced. At least I tried.

[dneal]

Never said I served in the NZ military. :) I guess facts aren't your strong suit either, along with poor impulse control, insincerity, lack of ethics and dishonesty. And look at all those naughty words. As Hari Seldon* stated 'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'. Personally I've always thought that excessive use of expletives in men was due to either low educational standard, or the need to compensate for something missing (usually a sense of manhood).



*For those who don't read sci-fi, this is a character in the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov

For someone that just posted "“A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.”, you seem to not be able to heed your own advice.

At least you gave another example of "triggered".

--edit--


Interesting article, but still rather vague with regard to modern application. The simple observable fact that many modern democracies survive and prosper without having a populace armed is ample testament. Being armed is part of the American psychology of fear.

Currently I live in New Zealand - one of the most stable countries in the world - and before that I lived in the UK. In neither place have I felt naked for not being allowed to go armed.* And in neither place have I felt that my freedoms were infringed by any Government. I accept certain limitations that are in place for the larger social good.

Given these differences with the US, I wonder how secure Americans feel travelling to other countries where they are not permitted the illusory safety of a personal weapon.


Anyway, perhaps you should read this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


*note, I served, so I am not unfamiliar with weapons and their application.

So the UK then? Typical of your weaseling at any rate.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

In your view every response that other people make is an example of being 'triggered', but none of your responses are. Way to go with the double standard.

Your poor impulse control is clearly painted across your responses.

It is also evident in how quickly you scamper to try and find 'evidence' to support your claims. Did I say I served in the UK military?

[Lloyd]

What you consider a good faith attempt fell far short. I'm neither duplicitous nor acting hypocritically. If anything, I show myself too easily. You placed all responsibility for your behaviors on others (Trump, good members exiting, name-calling members, etc.). Is that how a good Commander takes responsibility for their actions?

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[dneal]

What you consider a good faith attempt fell far short. I'm neither duplicitous nor acting hypocritically. If anything, I show myself too easily. You placed all responsibility for your behaviors on others (Trump, good members exiting, name-calling members, etc.). Is that how a good Commander takes responsibility for their actions?

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You're clearly determined to believe your preferred narrative, and argue from that. Whatever.

I noted "Maybe that's just coincidental..." with regard to Trump.

I have correspondence from some who have left and why. Since they haven't accused me of certain offenses, I don't need to share it in my defense.

Name calling members in this EoC instance was initiated by him, in the now apparently deleted thread about Parker 51s. Like I said, don't be a dick and I won't either. He was a dick. He's still being a dick. Cool. I'll be a dick too.

Lastly, I'm not a commander. Remember? You should get your taunts straight.

Congratulations on derailing another thread with drama. Is there some reason you can't address a topic?

[TSherbs]

I am so tired of reading comments about dneal, that I opened up his OP to see the details of what this is about.

I'll simply state this, because I have seen several of these kinds of content spread sheets for schools: this is very close to how my school handles these topics. The content and ages of introduction are reasonably consistent with what we find in terms of when the children are being exposed to certain threats (most of this is about self-protection, a laudable mission). The material on sexual identity here follows current thinking on when children are developing their understanding of gender differences and their own feelings of gender identity. Some children in elementary school actually begin their first foray into sexual practices (mostly exploratory and inquisitive). Many children are being exposed to these ideas and practices in various ways from even earlier years. The greater danger and harm is done by *not* introducing these topics in age-appropriate ways. I teach high school, but my colleagues in the earlier grades receive training in this, professional support and guidance, and do not spend inordinate time on *just* these topics and thus neglecting others. All schools, in teaching members of diverse families and backgrounds, have to address not only academic content, but also social and emotional learning and development. And, believe it or not, some parents are grateful that we do this because they are limited in their understanding of childhood development (from the research) or simply feel too reluctant to broach the topics.

The content material posted above is reasonable and sound.

[dneal]

I am so tired of reading comments about dneal

Join the club.

[Lloyd]

Thank you so much for your "insider" insights. ❤️

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[Lloyd]

dneal - I addressed the topic earlier. Instead of looking for ways to taunt, you should try to read the full messages.

Just because others sink to uncivil behavior doesn't mean you need to, does it? Also, I read the P51/EoC thread. Your choice in words, especially given that it was outside this subforum, were not the sign of any mature adult, no less ex-commander.

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[dneal]

dneal - I addressed the topic earlier. Instead of looking for ways to taunt, you should try to read the full messages.

Hmmm. From the guy who admitted his snark towards Bold, who also noted some people get emotional (implying we should just let them have that moment?). You weren't trying to taunt in the vaccine part 2 thread?

Hypocrite.


Just because others sink to uncivil behavior doesn't mean you need to, does it? Also, I read the P51/EoC thread. Your choice in words, especially given that it was outside this subforum, were not the sign of any mature adult, no less ex-commander.


You missed the parts about me responding in kind, not caring, and having a thick skin. You should try to read the full messages.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Thing is, you don't respond in kind, you are usually the initiator of incivility on here. As you don't care about anything, apparently, why do you bother responding at all?

[TSherbs]

My problem with the law in Florida is that it puts a chill (threat) on teachers of students who live in households with lgbtq+ parents and siblings and relatives and freinds and neighbors (etc) who the teachers may no longer feel free to mention or refer to or even acknowledge in any supportive or educational way before grade 4. In essence, the bill legally "others" those children's households and legally prevents teachers from discussing sexual orientation or identity prior to grade 4. My school, for example, would be in breach of this law, because we know from research and from experience that culturally "othering" children in certain family structures and dynamics increases their likelihood for social-emotional disorders and risks to their health, even, or especially, in these formative years when children are inculcating all these cultural messages about what is legitimate (and worthy of recognition and commendation) and what is not. This law does mean, for example, no more books about two dads or two moms before grade 4. Even though four of the kids in the room may have gay parents. What if we said that we could not teach books about mixed race parents until grade 4? Or about un-married mothers? I am supposing that there would be some (legitimate) outrage.

[Lloyd]

I wasn't acting snarkily to Bold, at least not intentionally. I was, and remain, in doubt of his statement. I may use sarcasm here but I'm not bitter, i don't feel superior (nor inferior) to, nor am I mocking. We are all entitled to our beliefs. My grandparents were very religious and I'd never mock them. I may disagree, refuse to adhere to their beliefs, and jest (not intentionally at their expense), but I'd always show them respect. I think the same should hold here. Being behind a keyboard doesn't make me forget that I'm discussing things with a slightly different version of myself. So, I try to treat them respectfully. Have I called anyone anything you wouldn't say to 4th graders?

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[TSherbs]

... Have I called anyone anything you wouldn't say to 4th graders?

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Well, in Florida, you could--for the first time--acknowledge the idea of gay parents being a legally legitimate parenting unit to fourth graders. But not before that. Watch your language, buckaroo! ;)

[Lloyd]

... Have I called anyone anything you wouldn't say to 4th graders?

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Well, in Florida, you could--for the first time--acknowledge the idea of gay parents being a legally legitimate parenting unit to fourth graders. But not before that. Watch your language, buckaroo! ;)
I hope that the teachers there don't roll their eyes while saying it.

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[dneal]

Thing is, you don't respond in kind, you are usually the initiator of incivility on here. As you don't care about anything, apparently, why do you bother responding at all?

See, this is like your complaining about the PIF - which took place over PM, and then complaining that I posted the PMs to show you weren’t being truthful. You introduced that to the thread. You made it personal. You made it about integrity and other nonsense. You went on the boomer rant. You initiated, not me. I escalated, which I have said on several occasions that I will do, and have done on several occasions.

Lloyd was uncivil to Bold in this thread. I pointed it out using his own words. He admitted it, and I pointed out the hypocrisy using his own words again.

You guys pretend innocence, I readily admit my actions and motives. I’m not a hypocrite though.

And to be clear, I didn’t say I don’t care about anything. I don’t care what a bunch of duplicitous hypocrites think about me.

[dneal]

Were you being snarky to Bold?.


I was being snarky because I don't think the statement is true.


I wasn't acting snarkily to Bold, at least not intentionally.

See? Duplicity. Hypocrisy.

[Lloyd]

I wasn't intending to be uncivil. I was sincere in my question. In fact, interpreting as a mock implies that he couldn't support his stance. I have no idea, either, if he's right or wrong what the primary reason for people sending their kids to private school has to do with so called liberal policies.

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[Empty_of_Clouds]

Actually the posted PMs showed I was being truthful. My beef with it was not about the content but the action. Low class, unethical.

As for anything else you say... well, who cares.

[Lloyd]

I was being snarky because I don't think the statement is true.


I wasn't acting snarkily to Bold, at least not intentionally.

See? Duplicity. Hypocrisy.
I was using the word snarky as what you seemed to interpret my statement as, not to assess my intentions.

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[dneal]

My problem with the law in Florida is that it puts a chill (threat) on teachers of students who live in households with lgbtq+ parents and siblings and relatives and freinds and neighbors (etc) who the teachers may no longer feel free to mention or refer to or even acknowledge in any supportive or educational way before grade 4. In essence, the bill legally "others" those children's households and legally prevents teachers from discussing sexual orientation or identity prior to grade 4. My school, for example, would be in breach of this law, because we know from research and from experience that culturally "othering" children in certain family structures and dynamics increases their likelihood for social-emotional disorders and risks to their health, even, or especially, in these formative years when children are inculcating all these cultural messages about what is legitimate (and worthy of recognition and commendation) and what is not. This law does mean, for example, no more books about two dads or two moms before grade 4. Even though four of the kids in the room may have gay parents. What if we said that we could not teach books about mixed race parents until grade 4? Or about un-married mothers? I am supposing that there would be some (legitimate) outrage.

Fair points, well articulated, that I can’t necessarily disagree with.

Thanks

[Bold2013]

I don’t mind being razed.

What bothers me is this facade of wanting to have civil discussions when in reality it’s just an opportunity to virtue signal while being cheered on by an echo chamber.

[TSherbs]

I don’t mind being razed.

What bothers me is this facade of wanting to have civil discussions when in reality it’s just an opportunity to virtue signal while being cheered on by an echo chamber.

How about if you said something specific about the law or the original post?

[dneal]

Actually the posted PMs showed I was being truthful. My beef with it was not about the content but the action. Low class, unethical.

As for anything else you say... well, who cares.

You initiated the same action. You divulged the content of PMs publicly. My posting a screenshot of those PMs removed any interpretation from either of us. Same action, different method. We both know why you decry the latter. It proved you were lying.

To answer the last sentence - apparently you do.

[Bold2013]

I don’t mind being razed.

What bothers me is this facade of wanting to have civil discussions when in reality it’s just an opportunity to virtue signal while being cheered on by an echo chamber.

How about if you said something specific about the law or the original post?


Good law with imperfections.

Our school system keeps discussion about sexual orientation/identity up to parents rather than teachers. However the state government is pushing for more woke ideology so it won’t be long unless a law like this becomes more widespread.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

We both know why you decry the latter. It proved you were lying.

Actually it showed that it was you that was lying. As you are lying now. And as all of your future posts will be seen through that lens.

[Lloyd]

Not just to dneal- it might help if we didn't call each other names, but called specific actions of theirs "how we see them". dneal, I don't view you solely in negatives. I deeply appreciated your knowledge in the Ukraine thread. I feel the same regarding everyone else here. There are behaviors here that I dislike, but not people.

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[Empty_of_Clouds]

There are behaviors here that I dislike, but not people.

Worthy of being quoted.


Back to the general area of the topic of the thread, this afternoon (NZ time) I attended a lecture which consisted of a showing of Killing us Softly 4 by Jean Kilbourne. The presentation was all about the objectification of both women and men (but mostly women) in advertising media through the last 50 years, and the social consequences that this has led to. Definitely worth a watch if you can find it.

It is relevant to this thread because it shows just how deeply entrenched the binary paradigm of sexuality/gender is in our society, and how only lip-service (if that) is offered to individuals or groups that choose other identities.

[Lloyd]

There are behaviors here that I dislike, but not people.

Worthy of being quoted.

Hey! No quoting with attributing!

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[Empty_of_Clouds]

Sorry.

LLOYD SAID IT!

[Lloyd]

Sorry.

LLOYD SAID IT!
Thanks, I live off of my royalties.

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[Lloyd]

dneal, sorry for this being delayed, but please give a big "thank you" to your sister-in-law. As the father of a special needs adolescent, she deserves to get double her salary.. regardless of what her salary is.

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[TSherbs]

There are behaviors here that I dislike, but not people.

Worthy of being quoted.


Back to the general area of the topic of the thread, this afternoon (NZ time) I attended a lecture which consisted of a showing of Killing us Softly 4 by Jean Kilbourne. The presentation was all about the objectification of both women and men (but mostly women) in advertising media through the last 50 years, and the social consequences that this has led to. Definitely worth a watch if you can find it.

It is relevant to this thread because it shows just how deeply entrenched the binary paradigm of sexuality/gender is in our society, and how only lip-service (if that) is offered to individuals or groups that choose other identities.

I remember watching this when the first one came out. Revelatory for me. I remember also showing the second version to my high school students early in my career. The room was usually speechless when we were done. Speechless in the way that the cleaver of revelation often renders us mute.

[Chip]

Speechless in the way that the cleaver of revelation often renders us mute.

Seriously? What about the guillotine of enlightenment?

[Lloyd]

Speechless in the way that the cleaver of revelation often renders us mute.

Seriously? What about the guillotine of enlightenment?
What about the garotte of enthrallment? The straight razor of shock? The toenail clipper of ennui?

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[TSherbs]

Speechless in the way that the cleaver of revelation often renders us mute.

Seriously? What about the guillotine of enlightenment?
Sure, if you prefer that metaphor for "dumbstruck".

[TSherbs]

Speechless in the way that the cleaver of revelation often renders us mute.

Seriously? What about the guillotine of enlightenment?
What about the garotte of enthrallment? The straight razor of shock? The toenail clipper of ennui?

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Ha!

[Chip]

Call it the fog of metaphor.

How about The Black Hole of Religion?

https://i.imgur.com/KoGzm0H.jpg

[TSherbs]

Better than the Fog of War:

http://i.imgur.com/BIwGC8X.png (https://imgur.com/BIwGC8X)

[Lloyd]

Better than the fog of fog.

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[Bold2013]

Call it the fog of metaphor.

How about The Black Hole of Religion?

https://i.imgur.com/KoGzm0H.jpg

Looks like a nuclear cardiac study

[Chip]

That is a radiotelescopic image of the massive black hole at the center of our galaxy.

The face of god?

[Chuck Naill]

God is a spirit according to the Bible. Not saying that’s a fact, but I tend to think our obcession with physicality keeps us from being more aware of the unseen. YMMV of course 🤫

[Chip]

Not much in the bible about black holes, quasars, and that sort of thing. Let alone quantum mechanics. (There is Ezekiel 1:16.)

That black hole is, in strict terms, as yet unseen. By the human eye, at least. The image is a composite of data from a great many radiotelescopes, just released.

https://i.imgur.com/fAWDpU1.jpg

(Photo gallery here. More info on the rest of the site.)

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/images/index.html

[kazoolaw]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYeCyqqtfik

[Chuck Naill]

I've heard Florida is not demanding "don't say gun". Just kidding. These follows don't say "lock down", vaccines, masks.......

[kazoolaw]

https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/over-200k-being-spent-on-drag-queen-shows-at-nyc-schools/

[dneal]

For those that are still confused. A picture is worth a thousand words...

70688

[Chuck Naill]

I am unable to find a reputable source to confirm.

[dneal]

That’s because it conflicts with the narrative.

[Chuck Naill]

Not sure what you posted is totally or partially true, but I am convinced of this, it is what you want to believe.

[dneal]

Chuck, it is simply one of a multitude of pieces of evidence to sort through.

-edit-

Here you go Chuck. While in a hurry to ”debunk” claims about what precisely was or was not “exposed”, the AP (if that meets your criteria) also confirms the occurrence.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-drag-queen-story-hour-photo-965766299271


However, unedited versions of the image show that the performer was wearing opaque nude tights that covered their genitals, a fact that Yetman confirmed to the AP in a phone interview Monday.

The picture I posted is the unedited version. Do you find that acceptable in an elementary school?

[Chuck Naill]

How do we know it wasn't staged or that it is you dressed as an ass clown?

The only sources were right wing or evangelical.

Perhaps it came from Liberty University, yeah, the same that gave the "My Pillow" guy an honorary doctorate.

[dneal]

Skepticism is good, Chuck. You should apply it more broadly.

[Chuck Naill]

Skepticism is good, Chuck. You should apply it more broadly.

I will assume that I was correct and that you cannot substantiate your posts.

A pattern I notice is that you post something and then waste all of our time proving it is valid. You did this with Trump and Covid. You were proven wrong in both cases. Then you pretend to be the hall monitor, which is so obviously hypocritical.

It is why I generally tend to trust, Ted.

[dneal]

You don't watch or read the things that do substantiate my posts Chuck. You are impervious to data or evidence that does not align with your existing opinion. Everyone has confirmation bias - including you. The solution is to understand the competing views so well that you could argue for them (whether or not you agree). You have to metaphorically look through Galileo's telescope and not rely on your dogma.

I argue a point of view alternative to yours not to troll, but to allow you to advocate the merit of your position or to point out the rational flaws in what I advocate. Sadly, you are unwilling or incapable of that, and often resort to rhetoric, ad hominem, and emoticons. I find this curious, since you are aware of that being an admittance of "running out of ammunition", as you yourself posted.

[Chuck Naill]

I don’t come here to substantiate your posts, @dneal! More often I am reduced to figuring out if your telling the truth or lying.

[dneal]

Chuck, no one has asked or requires you to substantiate anything. It's an internet forum. It's the reader's responsibility to investigate and evaluate, or not.

[Chuck Naill]

It is your responsibility to investigate and only post information that is true. No one wants to take to time to prove you’re not lying.

[Lloyd]

It is your responsibility to investigate and only post information that is true. No one wants to take to time to prove you’re not lying.
In the Jesus Teachings thread, who verified that the Bible was true?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chuck Naill]

Not me.

[dneal]

It is your responsibility to investigate and only post information that is true. No one wants to take to time to prove you’re not lying.

How do I know you’re not lying with this post?

[Chuck Naill]

The way you know is that I don’t post unverified information. Need more clarification?? Lol!

Your ego is not serving you well, @dneal or whoever you are.

[dneal]

Chuck, you misunderstood the point. I’ll be back when your posts are rational.

[Chuck Naill]

Lol!!

[TSherbs]

For those that are still confused. A picture is worth a thousand words...

70688

This post speaks just 5/6 words: you are a trash-slinging liar

[dneal]

For those that are still confused. A picture is worth a thousand words...

70688

This post speaks just 5/6 words: you are a trash-slinging liar

... he cried, as he slung trash.

[TSherbs]

The picture I posted is the unedited version. Do you find that acceptable in an elementary school?

You are a trash-slinger liar right there, asshole. You copied that bullshit that you copied off some other trash-talking internet site or got in your gross inbox, and didn't even bother to check what the event was before typing the words above. Or you did check, and wrote them anyway, just to be a lying asshole on top of a knee-jerk sexual conservative about what other parents, mostly moms, are choosing to do for story time occasionally with their children at a public library.




For those that are still confused. A picture is worth a thousand words...

70688

This post speaks just 5/6 words: you are a trash-slinging liar

... he cried, as he slung trash.

The ultimate cop-out of the teen-age minded bully: he objects, on the grounds of hypocrisy, for being called the bully that he is.

Despite whatever other threads you appear to start with equanimity, dneal, you always resort to this other lying bullshitted narrow-mindedness, and then retreat behind the flimsy (and immature) defense of "you're a hypocrite if you express outrage at my outrageous post" or "I always blame your 'narrative' before I admit to mine."

Ha.

Like I have said, fuck you, liar. And like I said, your post above was just a trash-slinging lie: even the AP article you cite to verify the event notes that it was in a municipal library and not a school.

What the fuck is your actual problem?

[dneal]

What the fuck is your actual problem?

After that rant, perhaps you should pose that question to yourself first.

I started a thread (subforum history) if you're genuinely interested in discussing the contentiousness in an effort toward resolution. Otherwise all this drama gets spread across other threads, derailing them.

[TSherbs]

There is a debate going on about Drag Story Hour at public libraries across the country. You want to learn about that, talk to librarians and/or the Drag Story Hour spokespeople.

There is a separate debate about curricular materials and approaches in schools for younger students. If you want to learn about that, talk to the teachers who do some of that work and listen to their reasonings.

If you just want to stir up shit for your little "lab rat" experiment here and just keep being a troglodite, then continue on just like with this post. Right on target, just as you said you were wont to do when you got bored with the subjects here.

[dneal]

To address the accusation of lying about whether or not it was a public library or public school... It's a pedantic argument, but I made no claim that the picture was taken at a public school; and posted the AP link. That's curious, if lying was my intent.

I extrapolated to ask another question, related to the OP. The "don't say gay" law is about sexual issues taught to students at particular ages.

Would you want "that" (a drag queen accidentally or intentionally) exposing their crotch in an elementary school?

[TSherbs]

What the fuck is your actual problem?

After that rant, perhaps you should pose that question to yourself first.

I started a thread (subforum history) if you're genuinely interested in discussing the contentiousness in an effort toward resolution. Otherwise all this drama gets spread across other threads, derailing them.

I have no interest in helping you come to understand anything. I told you, I'm just gonna call out your bullshit when I see it. Pictures don't tell a thousand words, dneal, when they are unattributed, and then misattributed, attempts at smearing. They just say a few words about the person who posted them.

Don't now pretend that you were edifying the thread with that garbage post.

[dneal]

There is a debate going on about Drag Story Hour at public libraries across the country. You want to learn about that, talk to librarians and/or the Drag Story Hour spokespeople.

There is a separate debate about curricular materials and approaches in schools for younger students. If you want to learn about that, talk to the teachers who do some of that work and listen to their reasonings.

If you just want to stir up shit for your little "lab rat" experiment here and just keep being a troglodite, then continue on just like with this post. Right on target, just as you said you were wont to do when you got bored with the subjects here.

I don't really care what the physical location is. I don't find it acceptable to introduce "drag" issues to developing humans who are inclined to still believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

Seeing how there is a popular theme of "man on the street" questioners asking passersby things like "when was the war of 1812?", and not receiving the obvious answer; I still assert that we are sacrificing the education of future generations on an altar of woke identity ideologies and other nonsense.

[dneal]

What the fuck is your actual problem?

After that rant, perhaps you should pose that question to yourself first.

I started a thread (subforum history) if you're genuinely interested in discussing the contentiousness in an effort toward resolution. Otherwise all this drama gets spread across other threads, derailing them.

I have no interest in helping you come to understand anything. I told you, I'm just gonna call out your bullshit when I see it.

Yet you object to my pointing out your "bullshit", in an effort to help you understand your inconsistencies and hypocrisies - which I do much more civilly than the tirades you have been going on.

You don't want to address this topic there, but you're happy to continue it here? Seems odd to me.

[Chuck Naill]

Kazoolaw made a post that it was occurring in public schools and immediately @dneal posted two photos saying if anyone is confused. Therefore in inference was clear. So, yes, the location was important since school presents a captive audience and a library not.

Ted did address the topic in the manner that sought to provide an honest and factual response to two members posting unverified information.

What’s odd, that you consider yourself more civil. You and your tactics are well known here.

[dneal]

Yes Chuck, there was an inference. There was not an implication though. The distinction is important.

[Chuck Naill]

The inference was clear. It came directly after Kazoolaw’s conspiratorial post. You knew what you were doing, @dneal.

[Chuck Naill]

And you wrote, “The picture I posted is the unedited version. Do you find that acceptable in an elementary school?”

[dneal]

Chuck, the reader makes the inference, whether or not there was an implication from the writer. You made the inference. I can't be responsible for what you infer.

There is a period seperating two sentences. I typed: "Do you find that [the drag queen exposing himself] acceptable at an elementary school?" Arguing whether or not it was a library or school ignores the issue, so that point remains irrelevant. But I'll cede your inference for the sake of argument. The location of a drag queen exposing their crotch to young children is wrong, whether the "story time" took place in a library or elementary school.

[TSherbs]

And you wrote, “The picture I posted is the unedited version. Do you find that acceptable in an elementary school?”

Don't bother, Chuck. It was a slimy smear. Don't get into a debate with him about it. This thread went downhill once the topic left the Florida law and the actual school programs there. Kazoo was just lazily stoking the fire, too. At least that was an actual news report with quotes, attributions, etc. Pretty low-level reporting, but it seems to have some legitimacy to its facts.

[dneal]

Just for you TSherbs and Chuck, something you'll find inciteful but made me laugh. Apologies to Mother Goose and Andrew Dice Clay.

Hickory, dickory, dock,
A queen was flashing his cock;
The libs cried "Oh Noes!
It's covered with hose!"
But the kids still experienced a shock.

[Chuck Naill]

You were acting as a journalist whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, which bears responsibility to report only what’s true or provide with some reference that it may or may not be true. Otherwise you are misleading either out of ignorance or intent. Since there are no standards that FB or this forum demands, you are free to post whatever you choose and only have to answer to your own conscience. What you cannot do is suggest that your ignorance or lying is my responsibility.

I’d say that another member pointed out you folly and that the location not a school, it a library. Now you’re trying to recover by saying the location is unimportant. Well, it is important and with your post we don’t know that it wasn’t edited to suggest children were present.

While I am not interested is drag, some are. I personally am more concerned about the state of our democracy. Drag people are not the reason for the problems this nation is facing because of political people .

[Chuck Naill]

And I am more concerned that people are not honest but feel smug that they are better than others.

[dneal]

Chuck, I'm not a journalist, never claimed to be one, and never acted as one. This is an internet forum, not a news publication.

You said: "I am unable to find a reputable source to confirm.", so I did you a favor and found you a reputable source.

It seems that the incident happened is disconcerting to your (and TSherb's) narrative, so the only way to escape the dissonance is to deflect with some non-issue of where specifically it occurred. Curiously, if it were in a Church or at a Boy Scout camp, and the man dressed differently; your opinion(s) would be likely be different.

[Chuck Naill]

Thank you, Ted. 👍👍

[Mark0385harris]

It seems to me that these are normal topics for schoolchildren. I believe that we should bring up such topics with children and dispel the myths so that there are no huge and bad consequences later. For example, CBD oil (https://seabedee.org/cbd-oil/) can help to cope with problems, but there are also many myths around it. Therefore, I am for the fact that children need to be told the truth.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Do we report spammers in this area of the forum? There's one right there ^^ see.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

From 2006 to 2007 I was an honest to goodness registered Press Journalist-Photographer. Still got my Press Pass (just found it cleaning out a drawer, thought I had thrown it out), should buy myself a Trilby so I can pose at parties! My mentor was the former editor of one of the major UK newspapers.

I'd forgotten about that. Onset of old-timer's disease I reckon. Hah!

[kazoolaw]

It came directly after Kazoolaw’s conspiratorial post.

"Conspiratorial?" The link to the Michigan Attorney General saying every elementary school should have a drag queen?
Or the link to the news article about Mayor Adams of NYC endorsing drag queens in elementary schools?
Neither had any embellishment or commentary.
If you're truly searching for "conspiracy" you might question why the same sentiment shows up among government officials in different states.




Kazoo was just lazily stoking the fire, too.

Only if "lazily" means "easily" and "stoking the fire" means simply repeating and exposing the actual comments.

[Chuck Naill]

"Conspiratorial?" The link to the Michigan Attorney General saying every elementary school should have a drag queen?
Or the link to the news article about Mayor Adams of NYC endorsing drag queens in elementary schools?
Neither had any embellishment or commentary.
If you're truly searching for "conspiracy" you might question why the same sentiment shows up among government officials in different states.




Kazoo was just lazily stoking the fire, too.

Only if "lazily" means "easily" and "stoking the fire" means simply repeating and exposing the actual comments.


So, I looked it up. She was responding to the many things being introduced that divide people. Her comments were not to be taken serious. That said, Republicans pounced in it, just like you.

That said, I don’t want drag queen entertainment on a captive audience anymore than I want to see Donald Trump grabbing pussy. Nor a female faking one as with Elaine or When Harry Met Sally.

[kazoolaw]

So, I looked it up. She was responding to the many things being introduced that divide people. Her comments were not to be taken serious.

First, there is no evidence that the Michigan AG has ever had a sense of humor.
Second, "I was just joking" is a near Pavlovian response to being caught in a lie, or in deeply offensive behavior.
Third, I am not a Republican.
Fourth, thank you for "I don’t want drag queen entertainment on a captive audience."

[Chuck Naill]

Your response was exactly as I did expect. It was obvious she was joking and you’re so far up Trumps rear you’ve not seen daylight since 2015.

[Chuck Naill]

So, the big mystery is, how do some of you try to take a moral stand against your perceived liberal sins and support Trump??

Is there nothing coming for your conscience that says otherwise?

[kazoolaw]

Your response was exactly as I did expect. It was obvious she was joking and you’re so far up Trumps rear you’ve not seen daylight since 2015.

< crickets >

[kazoolaw]

So, the big mystery is, how do some of you try to take a moral stand against your perceived liberal sins and support Trump??

Is there nothing coming for your conscience that says otherwise?

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/34991-Preserve-protect-and-defend?p=357063&viewfull=1#post357063

[Chuck Naill]

You come on here so infrequently that I feel my response to be somewhat of a waste in time although, I find it entertaining.

[kazoolaw]

...I feel my response to be somewhat of a waste in time ....
-Chuck

[Chuck Naill]

You are truly post challenged….lol.

[kazoolaw]

You are truly post challenged….lol.''


...I feel my response to be somewhat of a waste in time ....
-Chuck'"

[Chuck Naill]

''


...I feel my response to be somewhat of a waste in time ....
-Chuck'"

https://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/dumbest-internet-posts

[TSherbs]

Chuck, he is just trolling you.

[kazoolaw]

Chuck, he is just trolling you.

TS, if I said Chuck was the poster child for the Buzzfeed link that would be trolling.
My responses reflect that Chuck can try to troll with statements like "...you’re so far up Trumps rear you’ve not seen daylight..."* but that his efforts are unavailing.

* - You did read post 152, TS, right?

[Chuck Naill]

Kaz, you have to own your history and words. If you want apology, which would be inappropriate, don’t hold your breath.

[kazoolaw]

Kaz, you have to own your history and words. If you want apology, which would be inappropriate, don’t hold your breath.


...I feel my response to be somewhat of a waste in time ....
-Chuck

Chuck, don't limit yourself to "somewhat."

[Chuck Naill]

I only limit myself in my response to your trolling, irrational, self absorbed, nonsense.

[ovachlena]

But they teach open classes about the dangers of drugs, and yet our country still leads in the use of psychedelic drugs, which begs the question of why we need them at all, if they are useless. It's up to everyone to understand for themselves that drugs are bad, so I use CBD gummies canada (https://plantoflife.co/product-category/edibles/thc-free-gummies/), as it is relaxing but not addictive, almost like marijuana, but only better. What about these conversations about the harm of something, it's better to let the governments then completely re-educate the society.

[Chip]

There's some element in the right-wing psyche that equates acknowledging the existence of something with magnifying it as a threat.

Teaching kids that some people are gay, etc. is not the same as urging kids to be gay, let alone grooming them.

Look at the hostility to gay people in the Catholic church, which certainly hasn't stopped predatory priests from raping children.

In fact, it seems to have led to a blanket denial that such things can take place.

[Lloyd]

There's some element in the right-wing psyche that equates acknowledging the existence of something with magnifying it as a threat.


This is far more universal a human reaction than just a GOP behavior.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

There's some element in the right-wing psyche that equates acknowledging the existence of something with magnifying it as a threat.


This is far more universal a human reaction than just a GOP behavior.

I had coffee yesterday with one of my former students who happens to be trans (and was in high school, too). This was one of the very topics that we touched upon in our conversation. People often don't like their sensibilities being challenged by experiences or persons outside of their ken.

[Chuck Naill]

Someone asks me yesterday how someone could continue to support Donald Trump, I replied that I think Trump provides his base with how they wish the US to be. General Millie's resignation letter communicated that the Constitution protects everyone regardless of the demographical makeup. Either many of Trump supporters don't know this or they disagree.

The Evangelicals need to stop spreading their religion and learn to live quietly as their interpretations of scripture instruct them to do so. Rome destroyed the church when Christianity became the official religion. The Republicans are going to do the same.

[TSherbs]

No shit:

Schools are confused by ramifications of Florida's don't say gay bill:

https://apnews.com/article/health-education-ron-desantis-gender-identity-49dfb9a4f63b2497846df8e96fd652cc

[Lloyd]

No shit:

Schools are confused by ramifications of Florida's don't say gay bill:

https://apnews.com/article/health-education-ron-desantis-gender-identity-49dfb9a4f63b2497846df8e96fd652cc
I'm not able to follow the link

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

No shit:

Schools are confused by ramifications of Florida's don't say gay bill:

https://apnews.com/article/health-education-ron-desantis-gender-identity-49dfb9a4f63b2497846df8e96fd652cc
I'm not able to follow the link

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

This better? https://apnews.com/article/health-education-ron-desantis-gender-identity-49dfb9a4f63b2497846df8e96fd652cc

[Lloyd]

No
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220817/7ca6b9db341e0aae7c8c9d9aa66b1882.jpg

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

Sorry. I have no other ideas. It works for me.

[Chip]

Me, too.

[Lloyd]

Can you post the title? I'll search for that.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Lloyd]

I think I found it.
The same link that you gave, but when I click on it from Tapatalk, it doesn't take me there.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Lloyd]

Is it true that DeSantis is removing many of the colors from the rainbow? No more ROYGBIV... now just R (girl) and B (boy)?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chip]

Can't leave out orange, for Trump.

[Lloyd]

Can't leave out orange, for Trump.
Since he's the only orange I know, that make him a singleton.. which is, unsurprisingly, similar to the word simpleton. How apropos....

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™