Is FPGeeks still a pleasant place to stay?

[christof]

Believe me, I thought for a very long time whether I should really write the following. Especially at a time when there is more arguing than interesting content being posted. The reason why I do it anyway? - I have come to appreciate this forum very much, and its members as well. It has become dear to me.

I really like the idea of an unmoderated forum. After all, we are all adult persons and for a long time this worked very well but for some time I have less and less desire to come here. :(

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not accusing anyone. But I wonder why there has been a spiteful tone here for some time. And I wonder why this forum is dominated by threads who hardly contribute any interesting content? And why are there hostile camps among the members instead of beeing just a community? What is the appeal of arguing on the internet and why don't we all try to make this forum a pleasant place to escape to for recreation from our daily lives?

I am not a judge and I will not take sides. But I ask you to think about, what kind of content you'd like to read. Shouldn't we all try to create more of interesting stuff and just ignore what we don't like? I am convinced that in this forum is enough space for everyone.

Christof

[eachan]

Thank you for raising the subject, Christof. It has always been a problem of the Internet that that spiteful and unpleasant people, safe in their anonymity and distance, take a cowardly pleasure in disruption and insult. As this is an unmoderated board, as you say, it is perhaps surprising that there has been so little unpleasantness over the years, perhaps principally because most of those taking part have a genuine love of, and interest in, the subjects to be discussed here.

There are those among us who would be happy to see moderation here and the difficulties the board is experiencing at present go a long way to make their case. All I can say against that is how well this board runs for months at a time between the periods of acrimony and attack. I have experience of over-policed online environments and those are at least equally uncomfortable in the other direction.

There is the "ignore" function which can work in some circumstances but when a malicious poster is prolific, the conversation becomes broken up and hard to follow. For some already the option has been chosen to ignore the group entirely. We have lost discussion to other areas such as Facebook and that migration is hastened by unnecessary malice. I've seen other board go down because of one person's behaviour. Who is to say that the owner of this forum will practice forbearance forever?

[Chrissy]

There are argumentative, spiteful and unpleasant people, who seem to enjoy nothing more than an argument, on every forum. They seem to take pleasure from starting and proliferating argumentative threads and posts because that is the basically the type of person they are or that they become when in the company of others on fora. As eachan says 'safe in their anonymity and distance'.

An unmoderated forum seems like a good idea until you get those people who actually prefer to post malicious posts rather than posting the type of content others like to read. Then you do need a moderator to step up and do something about it. Otherwise, once they are aware that their actions are totally immune from any sort of moderation the nuisance posters seem to be empowered to become worse and worse.

[eachan]

I agree with all your points, Chrissy. However I think Eric has made it abundantly clear that he has no wish to conduct active moderation and must be nudged to do anything at all. He's also unwilling to hand over moderation responsibility due to a previous occurrence. We have to solve our problems here without moderation or walk away. It's no good continuing to ask for what we won't get.

[manoeuver]

A lot of people are in a great deal of pain.

[Lloyd]

Also, many members here came after being banned "elsewhere". Some deservedly.
I find that those discussing their pen usage (arts, quotes, etc.) Are very warm while several in the open debate subforum are not.

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[An old bloke]

Thank you for raising the subject, Christof. It has always been a problem of the Internet that that spiteful and unpleasant people, safe in their anonymity and distance, take a cowardly pleasure in disruption and insult. As this is an unmoderated board, as you say, it is perhaps surprising that there has been so little unpleasantness over the years, perhaps principally because most of those taking part have a genuine love of, and interest in, the subjects to be discussed here.

There are those among us who would be happy to see moderation here and the difficulties the board is experiencing at present go a long way to make their case. All I can say against that is how well this board runs for months at a time between the periods of acrimony and attack. I have experience of over-policed online environments and those are at least equally uncomfortable in the other direction.

There is the "ignore" function which can work in some circumstances but when a malicious poster is prolific, the conversation becomes broken up and hard to follow. For some already the option has been chosen to ignore the group entirely. We have lost discussion to other areas such as Facebook and that migration is hastened by unnecessary malice. I've seen other board go down because of one person's behaviour. Who is to say that the owner of this forum will practice forbearance forever?

Spot on.

There are 'ugly people' everywhere. The internet and any forum is no exception. That said, this forum is in my opinion a happy place. Yes, there is the occasional -- shall we say -- digresser, but they are rare. In the end, it is as mentioned above, possible to ignore the malicious or unpleasant participant just as it is to ignore the boring or rude individual we encounter elsewhere in our daily lives.

[TSherbs]

I have correspondents whom I have been writing to for years whom I met here. I have "friends" whom I would like to have a beer with one day. I also have been so tired of the toxicity, some of which I responded to in kind, that I have left FPG for months at a time. I now use the ignore function liberally, and am much happier. There are many very kind and gracious people here.

[TSherbs]

I thought a little more about this question and thought that I would add this: most of the vitriol has its source in the "Politics, Religion, and Culture" section of this site, we are warned that the conversations can be free-wheeling and bruising and not suitable for the thin-skinned. There are many members who upon looking in those threads clearly then stay away from the mud-splatter that can result. Since Eric in his description (or whoever wrote the decription....Dan?) clearly labels what may happen there, one shouldn't have much surprise for what does transpire, especially since it is un-moderated. I am present there (although, as I say, I have been away for spells of several months, from time to time since 2013), and I have both thrown and been hit by mud. We each have our limits for what we consider fair conduct, even in those condiditons, and not all participants have the same kinds of standards (for example, I have a potty mouth in terms of swearing and see no disrespect in vulgar language. I love the Brits for this!). But that is me. Others don't feel that way, even in these back pages. The bigger problem, as I see it, is when these troubled relationships between members on these back pages spill out openly on other threads where members participate not expecting to have to read or dodge or witness that same kind of mud. This site has some *rooms* for fighting, but clearly other threads are meant to be free of it, even if the site lacks moderation. One reason that I use the ignore function is so I don't have to read some of the posts that I would find quasi-irritating by members whom I may feel animus toward for reasons outside the thread in question. And if I am less irritated, then I am less likely to yield to the impulse to post a similarly-irritating reply (and then we are off to the races). I am not perfect about this, but this thread is a reminder that I can be better.

So maybe a way of looking at this is to say, don't be surprised to see mud on the walls of the mudrooms, but maybe we should try to do better to keep the mud out of the other rooms of this local mansion. As I wrote and very strongly believe, there are many good and gracious people here.

[Lloyd]

The "Politics, Religion, and Culture" sub-forum has turned into the "Lord of the Flies". Unfortunate, there's now a bridge from that subforum to the rest of this forum.

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[TSherbs]

The "Politics, Religion, and Culture" sub-forum has turned into the "Lord of the Flies". Unfortunate, there's now a bridge from that subforum to the rest of this forum.

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Ha! I teach that book to 9th graders (finished it about a month ago).

[TSherbs]

I am not perfect about this, but this thread is a reminder that I can be better.

I can and have been very much behind this notion. However, time and experience has shown that among a small group of members here once tarred always feathered. The concept of personal growth and improvement is anathema to them. Which is ironic as it is they who would benefit most from a bit of self-reflection and that would make this place much nicer.

Perhaps you are right. But how many of us, once our pique is involved, want to "improve"? That is certainly when I am least open to the idea. So maybe we should all practice some Pique Reduction Techniques (PRT, for short :) )

[An old bloke]

I thought a little more about this question and thought that I would add this: most of the vitriol has its source in the "Politics, Religion, and Culture" section of this site, we are warned that the conversations can be free-wheeling and bruising and not suitable for the thin-skinned. There are many members who upon looking in those threads clearly then stay away from the mud-splatter that can result. Since Eric in his description (or whoever wrote the decription....Dan?) clearly labels what may happen there, one shouldn't have much surprise for what does transpire, especially since it is un-moderated. I am present there (although, as I say, I have been away for spells of several months, from time to time since 2013), and I have both thrown and been hit by mud. We each have our limits for what we consider fair conduct, even in those condiditons, and not all participants have the same kinds of standards (for example, I have a potty mouth in terms of swearing and see no disrespect in vulgar language. I love the Brits for this!). But that is me. Others don't feel that way, even in these back pages. The bigger problem, as I see it, is when these troubled relationships between members on these back pages spill out openly on other threads where members participate not expecting to have to read or dodge or witness that same kind of mud. This site has some *rooms* for fighting, but clearly other threads are meant to be free of it, even if the site lacks moderation. One reason that I use the ignore function is so I don't have to read some of the posts that I would find quasi-irritating by members whom I may feel animus toward for reasons outside the thread in question. And if I am less irritated, then I am less likely to yield to the impulse to post a similarly-irritating reply (and then we are off to the races). I am not perfect about this, but this thread is a reminder that I can be better.

So maybe a way of looking at this is to say, don't be surprised to see mud on the walls of the mudrooms, but maybe we should try to do better to keep the mud out of the other rooms of this local mansion. As I wrote and very strongly believe, there are many good and gracious people here.

Having never visited the 'Poiitics, Religion, and Culture' sub-forum, being previously unaware of its existence, I wouldn't know what goes on there. My opinion that FPG is a 'happy place' is based solely upon what has happened in the rest of the forum.

[Lloyd]

Perhaps the forum and the members would benefit by taking a big breath and having a reset.
I don't know. Sometimes the slash-and-burn method produces the best forests.

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[RobJohnson]

Perhaps the forum and the members would benefit by taking a big breath and having a reset.

I don't think that there is an issue with the forum itself and the majority of the members.

There are a limited number of protagonists who cause any perceived unpleasantness but no moderator to kick them off it is left to every other member who may be seeking a peaceful coexistence to make their own mind up as to the choices available to them which I suggest are ignore, accept or scroll on by.

Having teenage tantrums and resorting to name calling just makes you (you in the broadest sense) look ridiculous and the rest of us despair.

This is a golden moment to have an unmoderated forum, possibly unique, if you screw it up then you only have yourselves to blame.

[RobJohnson]

Christof said

But I ask you to think about, what kind of content you'd like to read. Shouldn't we all try to create more of interesting stuff and just ignore what we don't like? I am convinced that in this forum is enough space for everyone.

The content I would like to read:

1. Posts about the joy of using FPs
2. Posts showing the art (both drawing and writing) of using FPs
3. Posts that show imagination and curiosity about pens and their use.
4. Posts that are inclusive of experiences, not shouted down by intolerant blowhards.
5. Posts that don't perpetuate the ridiculous myths about FPs (it's a personal bugbear)
6. Posts that are really about helping people and not about establishing authority.

I could probably think of more but these should suffice for now.

Shouldn't we all try to create more of interesting stuff?

Yes, but it's only a small segment of the membership that ever do this.

... and just ignore what we don't like?

Of course! Although in my case I ignore what doesn't interest me.

I am convinced that in this forum is enough space for everyone.

Indeed it is, although there are some here who think they have dibs on the place. They don't.

I have a problem in reading this post in that it doesn't accord with some of your more malicious posts over the past few weeks and you could really do yourself a favour by asking, 'am I responsible, at least in part, for the general opinion that Fpg is not as pleasant a place as it could be.'

There is a supplementary question which you may want to consider, 'I cannot change and therefore I will go on whining and creating content for the sole reason that I feel that this is my job at Fpg, it keeps things lively. People will simply have to put up with what I say and stop being sanctimonious, or ignore me, I will say what I chose, this is my right, I may be the cause but other people have the problem.'

Put quite simply, if Christof took the view that he had had enough of the aggression and backbiting and decided that he was not going to post in the future then his contributions would be missed by most if not all of the membership. I won't ask the next question of you, decide it for yourself.

[Lloyd]

EoC- I hate to write this, and I apologize if you feel it should be in a PM To you. I find you to be avoiding viewing your own posts objectively. You classify a subset as "blowhards" despite supporting not classifying the members but their postings. You ask for advise from those with a lot of experience, possibly gained through the repair profession. However, if it's at odds with what you decide to do, and if you have success, you castigate them. If I advise someone who's poor not to buy lottery tickets and they avoid my advise and win a million dollars, should they insult me as acting like a know it all? Many, obviously not all, in the thread you shared with me were trying their best to sincerely assist you. Instead of thanking them but opting to follow your own methods, you insulted them. This isn't the only time you've exhibited the "me versus the old guard" attitude. There are certainly many who act hypocritically here, but we're all opting to expend the one thing that's most valuable in this world, our time, to share ourselves with other FP lovers. Unfortunately, the immediacy of the internet, versus letter writing, and the anonymity of it, versus face to face, leads to members posting knee jerk reactions to misinterpretations of others postings. We could all benefit from waiting to submit our posts, reading them through a loved one's eyes, before clicking.

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[Chrissy]

We probably all look forward to reading content about fountain pens, posts showing the art produced by fountain pens and inks, posts that include experiences of fountain pens and inks and helpful posts that are really about helping people.

What we don't want to read are posts that have absolutely no such content that are posted to solely personally attack other members or call them names or liars or to discriminate against them in any way. Although occasionally we might think things like that we don't need to type them here.
Perhaps the saying to bear in mind is: If you have nothing nice to say then say nothing.

I was reading TSherbs thread in the Politics, Religion and Society forum the other day and on April 20th this poster says (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/36984-How-to-approach-the-teachings-of-Jesus?p=362382&viewfull=1#post362382) "Kindness to our fellows is the bedrock of stable and harmonious community."

I posted some factual information to one member on how to use the Ignore function on FPG as he was clearly upset with some comments that he had read on a thread. Immediately after my post I was called a harpy for no reason other than spitefulness, maliciousness and aggression. There was nothing else in that post and it does not qualify as a fountain pen post nor does it qualify as kindness to our fellows. So the poster who preaches that kindness to our fellows is the bedrock of stable and harmonious community is not practicing what he preaches.

[amk]

FPGeeks is a place I look forward to hanging out when I power up the PC in the morning.

That said I'm aware of some of the issues. But I have found that there's a lot of good practice too. People who are respectful of other people's remarks, who share their knowledge freely. Sometimes, who apologize, and that's not always easy to do.

One small suggestion. I love Christof's pen pictures thread and it's always a good place to be with good feeling. Ditto the new acquisitions topic. Perhaps we'd benefit from a few more regular threads or subjects? Stylo-plume.org has a Sunday thread which ranges widely in topic - it's a great way to pull together contributions from the crowd.

[Lloyd]

EoC- Your interpretation of the others, whether actual or incorrect, doesn't justify you acting the way you are acting. Blaming others for our actions is to imply that they hold control over us.

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[Lloyd]

💔I hope you reconsider, EoC. When you are receptive of others, you can be a stellar contributor.

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[christof]

...

I sent a message to Christof with a simple direct and sincere question. If he/she honestly thought FPG would be nicer if I didn't take part then I would accept that decision and go.

Christof, for his/her part has declined to make this decision, and doesn't want to judge
....



Just to make things clear. It is not my wish that anyone should leave the forum because of this thread. I have never written that nor demanded it. The departure of a member is his sole decision which I have neither positively nor negatively influenced. Now that I have been mentioned in the post above, I think it is appropriate to share my response which I sent via PN.





Thank you for your offer, but I must decline.

It is not my intention, nor is it at my discretion to decide on the departure of a member. I have clearly written that I will not take sides.

My post was intended as food for thought about what behavior is required for peaceful coexistence. In doing so, I deliberately refrained from innuendo or quotation. Everyone should judge for himself whether he feels addressed or not.

But if you and other members want to play this game of accusation and defense I cannot change that.

I'm sorry, but I can't help you with your decision.

[amk]

Guys! This exploded.

A number of people on this forum can be snarky sometimes. And they can also be incredibly generous and forthcoming.

Deep breath???? :-)

Let's think about positive things to do for the forum, someone else had a very good post earlier in the thread.

[TSherbs]

Rest and recharge. Peace, brother.

[Robalone]

Edit: content removed as it is clear you (Robalone) want to lay all the ills of the forum at my door. It's not constructive.

Whoa dude….I’m not playing ….check who you reply to .

[TSherbs]

Perhaps the forum and the members would benefit by taking a big breath and having a reset.
I don't know. Sometimes the slash-and-burn method produces the best forests.

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That's tough on people tho.

[TSherbs]

A lot of people are in a great deal of pain.

This is a good reminder, manoeuver

[Lloyd]

Perhaps the forum and the members would benefit by taking a big breath and having a reset.
I don't know. Sometimes the slash-and-burn method produces the best forests.

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That's tough on people tho.
It was a long winter....I can use a bit of heat.

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[Linger]

The "Politics, Religion, and Culture" sub-forum has turned into the "Lord of the Flies". Unfortunate, there's now a bridge from that subforum to the rest of this forum.

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My father taught me to avoid certain topics on most parties: money, religion, and politics.

[Lloyd]

The "Politics, Religion, and Culture" sub-forum has turned into the "Lord of the Flies". Unfortunate, there's now a bridge from that subforum to the rest of this forum.

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My father taught me to avoid certain topics on most parties: money, religion, and politics.
Good advice. If you stay in contact with something for long enough, you become part of it.

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[FredRydr]

Be aware that well-practiced manipulation techniques were just applied...again. I suggest not being taken in or feeling sorry.

This very same pattern has been exhibited over the years that have sought to shift responsibility, blame and even guilt for misbehavior onto other members as part of some kind of emotional neediness. Then there are these publicly declared departures to elicit sympathy - only to drift back into the forum again for a honeymoon period until the misbehavior begins anew. A search on member ID and the word "goodbye" will show just a sliver of the history and the grudges.

Like a close call with a con artist, learn the lesson what to watch out for and ignore, then move on to enjoy this community with the majority of its members and our pens!

[manoeuver]

part of the fun of fora is slinging shit once in a while and I'm fairly adept at it.

my policy is don't throw the first turd in an on-topic section of a forum, and never hesitate to defend a friend.

The politics area of FPG has become too toxic and useless even for me. I just don't go in there anymore, problem solved.

The way things go astray in the other areas of FPG is really strange. It oscillates.

[An old bloke]

Be aware that well-practiced manipulation techniques were just applied...again. I suggest not being taken in or feeling sorry.

This very same pattern has been exhibited over the years that have sought to shift responsibility, blame and even guilt for misbehavior onto other members as part of some kind of emotional neediness. Then there are these publicly declared departures to elicit sympathy - only to drift back into the forum again for a honeymoon period until the misbehavior begins anew. A search on member ID and the word "goodbye" will show just a sliver of the history and the grudges.

Like a close call with a con artist, learn the lesson what to watch out for and ignore, then move on to enjoy this community with the majority of its members and our pens!
Exactly! It plays on one's instincts of fairness and compassion. Don't fall for it.

[christof]

I'm not proud of how that turned out…

[Chrissy]

Be aware that well-practiced manipulation techniques were just applied...again. I suggest not being taken in or feeling sorry.

This very same pattern has been exhibited over the years that have sought to shift responsibility, blame and even guilt for misbehavior onto other members as part of some kind of emotional neediness. Then there are these publicly declared departures to elicit sympathy - only to drift back into the forum again for a honeymoon period until the misbehavior begins anew. A search on member ID and the word "goodbye" will show just a sliver of the history and the grudges.

Like a close call with a con artist, learn the lesson what to watch out for and ignore, then move on to enjoy this community with the majority of its members and our pens!
Exactly! It plays on one's instincts of fairness and compassion. Don't fall for it.
This.

[Chrissy]

I'm not proud of how that turned out…
I believe it was always going to turn out that way christof so don't beat yourself up over it. :)

[Lloyd]

Be aware that well-practiced manipulation techniques were just applied...again. I suggest not being taken in or feeling sorry.

This very same pattern has been exhibited over the years that have sought to shift responsibility, blame and even guilt for misbehavior onto other members as part of some kind of emotional neediness. Then there are these publicly declared departures to elicit sympathy - only to drift back into the forum again for a honeymoon period until the misbehavior begins anew. A search on member ID and the word "goodbye" will show just a sliver of the history and the grudges.

Like a close call with a con artist, learn the lesson what to watch out for and ignore, then move on to enjoy this community with the majority of its members and our pens!
Exactly! It plays on one's instincts of fairness and compassion. Don't fall for it.
This.
Call me gullible but I hope EoC reconsiders. I think at times he contributed amply and I think he needs a supportive community, something this forum has the potential to achieve.

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[Farmboy]

I’ll need a Cliffs Notes version to follow this.

[christof]

I'm not proud of how that turned out…

...so don't beat yourself up over it...

Why should I beat up myself? When I say that I am not proud of how that turned out, I mean that I am not proud of how the froum handled this. And I am part of the forum.

[scrivelry]

A lot of people are in a great deal of pain.

This, certainly.

When people are negative, there is generally a reason. For some, it is not meant to be negative, but maybe they have problems expressing themselves. For others, they are impatient with anyone who does not agree with them. Occasionally, people post things some take as negative because they really believe with all their hearts that they are correct, and are perhaps preventing damage. And some people are in pain or have some other problem they are dealing with.

That problem can be physical or mental pain. It can be mental illness of a mild or powerful degree. It may be financial, or social, or spiritual for those who define a portion of themselves that way. The past few years with the pandemic and all the fallout from that have clearly added to the burdens people are carrying - there is a lot of research going on about it, it is not just blaming whatever is out there. So more people are in varying sorts of pain than usual, whatever usual is.

Are some people nasty? Yes, anywhere. Do the reasons vary from just liking to be mean to all sorts of complex interactions? Yes. Personally, unless it is very clearly directed at me as a personal jab, I really try to ignore it.

Overall, I find the people of this board to be kind and truly generous. I have had a number of really kind overtures of various kinds from a wide group of members here over the years, including recently. So, for me, yes, it is a pleasant place to hang out.

[Chrissy]

I'm not proud of how that turned out…

...so don't beat yourself up over it...

Why should I beat up myself? When I say that I am not proud of how that turned out, I mean that I am not proud of how the froum handled this. And I am part of the forum.
Apologies, then I misunderstood your comment. I thought you might be either blaming the posting of this thread or the communication you had between yourself and the member in question.

[Chrissy]

Call me gullible but I hope EoC reconsiders. I think at times he contributed amply and I think he needs a supportive community, something this forum has the potential to achieve.

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Yes, maybe he did contribute amply at times but there were others when he degenerated into being an aggressive name caller and picked on everyone who made any comment that he didn't like. That's exactly how it has all happened before too. Many of us have seen it all play out in a smilier way too many times in the past.

[An old bloke]

I'm not proud of how that turned out…

I have to ask; why?

In the end, the responsibility for how this interpersonal event turned out is not yours. Instead, it lies in the hands of an individual who in my opinion has acted immaturely and aggressively causing some very negative feelings amongst the majority here.

[christof]

I'm not proud of how that turned out…

I have to ask; why?

In the end, the responsibility for how this interpersonal event turned out is not yours. Instead, it lies in the hands of an individual who in my opinion has acted immaturely and aggressively causing some very negative feelings amongst the majority here.

Maybe I imagined that my post would make people think, and that behavior and word choice might change.

Maybe I was just hoping that we could all be together without arguing.

This thread proves the opposite of both. no reason to be proud. at least not for me. but that's the way it is. it‘s okay. the matter is settled for me. let's move on to fountain pens again! :)

[An old bloke]

let's move on to fountain pens again!

Hear, hear.

[Lloyd]

chistof- I feel, and I know a few others also, saddened by EoC, or for that matter, any member leaving our forum. I think we should be a more caring community. There's too much "subgrouping" in society, us versus them. A small community like one based on fountain pens is weakened by being split among so many disconnected different clusters (FPN, FPG, REDDIT, FB). I think a greater effort by all to try to avoid misinterpreting others and avoid others misinterpreting us is needed. We're all here spending our precious time on the same shared interest. Why be so callous as to say "good riddance" when one strays with feelings of lack of support?

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[TSherbs]

Here's another angle on this that recent came into greater clarity for me, and manoeuver's comment about defending friends reinforced the idea for me: I am the same way. I am fiercely loyal to friends. I don't mean that I never hurt their feelings; I mean that if I sense that they are being attacked, I will come to their defense. The way this has played itself out on these threads is that I have been triggered to hop into discussions that did not previously involve me, and my motivation has mostly been to assist someone that I know through back channels and have respect for. I am this way about my family (the family of my own childhood, I mean). I could not live with any of my four brothers, but you say one fucking unkind thing about them and you have a fight on your hands. Here, what this also has meant is that I have "forgiven" (looked the other way, been silent about, etc) my closer aquaintances for their pecadillos as I am sure that they have done for me. It seems human nature. I have seen others here do the same. I don't know if this helps the dynamics on threads or not, but when I see an aquaintance having trouble with conflict on a thread, I often write that person back channel and check in with how they are doing. Sometimes that "helps," sometimes it doesn't. It's just my nature: this is what I do at my workplace, and what, occasionally others do for me.

But then there are other times when I cannot do any forgiving, and I have recently seen many other cases recently where others were also locked in that same loop of resentment, effrontery, and riposte: the inability to just let something go that you perceive as outrageous, wrong, hypocritical, whatever. Even an opinion on a pen! For my "friends," I let nearly all of this go. For my rhetorical adversaries, this has been much harder for me. This is my problem, and I need to work on it. I am a veteran of AA, and right now, I just can't exchange with some people because it has become like a trecherous elixir to me. So I am going cold turkey. :)

I also have a few friends here, one in particular, who for months at a time (some years ago) I had locked on ignore because we were so caustic toward each other. But we had a breakthrough, entirely because the other person made the bigger move and reached out to me in contrition and respect. I was stunned, honestly. This had never happened to me before, nor have I ever done the same. I still owe that act as a PIF, friend! When I am big enough, I will do the same. I am working on it.

In real life a few years ago I made a pledge that I was going to spend an entire year making the effort to get closer to and to understand a very conservative colleague with whom I had frequently publicly disagreed on policy, occasionally with acrimony. I made the pledge to myself and I kept it. It was hard, we had rough patches, we argued a couple more times, but only in private now. And then we came to understand how much and in what similar ways we cared about the same things and had virtually the same values. We just had to break free of the sense of "camps" that we were in. Now that I am retiring, we have cried with each other over how we will miss working with each other (33 years of working with each other). These things can improve! If I can do this, if my colleague X can do this, if some of us antagonist members here can do this, then, like Lloyd, I believe that this *can* (not necessarily *will*) happen with ANYONE.

It just takes some humility, patience, forbearance, and initiative.

[Lloyd]

Thanks for sharing that, TSherbs. It's too easy in online forums to forget that each post is coming from someone that's not too different from ourselves with similar, but not identical, values, sensitivities, dreams, and beliefs. It's not easy for it to truly be a "social network" versus an "anti-social network". Perhaps if you imagined that the recipient was a loved one, we would try to avoid acting so combative and impulse-driven. When a member appears insulted, don't blame them, blame your post being misinterpreted due to how you wrote it and reach out to fix the situation. They're are a few trying to prove something to themselves, but most are trying to be members of a pen- loving community.

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[An old bloke]

Lloyd said, 'It's not easy for it to truly be a "social network" versus an "anti-social network". Perhaps if you imagined that the recipient was a loved one, we would try to avoid acting so combative and impulse-driven.'

Recognising that each of us is unique, that each of us has had different life experiences, and that our differences require mutual respect and understanding is my constant endeavour.

[Lloyd]

Lloyd said, 'It's not easy for it to truly be a "social network" versus an "anti-social network". Perhaps if you imagined that the recipient was a loved one, we would try to avoid acting so combative and impulse-driven.'

Recognising that each of us is unique, that each of us has had different life experiences, and that our differences require mutual respect and understanding is my constant endeavour.

We don't all interpret the same typed messages as showing respect and understanding. If someone gets angry and has an outburst, first we should blame ourselves for being misinterpreted instead of mentally classifying them in simple terms as someone I prefer to not be here. We don't know their history, weaknesses, needs. I view it like teaching. If the student fails to grasp the subject, I don't first blame the student, I blame myself for how I've taught it and try an alternative approach.

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[eachan]

I'm pleased with how the forum handled this. There was a problem which was becoming ever more severe and the forum discussed it reasonably and calmly. A resolution appears to have been reached. Well done!

[Lloyd]

I'm pleased with how the forum handled this. There was a problem which was becoming ever more severe and the forum discussed it reasonably and calmly. A resolution appears to have been reached. Well done!
I don't agree. A member left in a disillusioned (possibly depressed) state who, I think, could use some support. It might not be a requirement in a forum, but it is in a community.

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[An old bloke]

I'm pleased with how the forum handled this. There was a problem which was becoming ever more severe and the forum discussed it reasonably and calmly. A resolution appears to have been reached. Well done!
I don't agree. A member left in a disillusioned (possibly depressed) state who, I think, could use some support. It might not be a requirement in a forum, but it is in a community.

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No, a member whose caustic and in my opinion, immature, behaviour left willingly when others objected to that behaviour. It was effectively the same action as a child taking his or her ball and going home because his or her playmates refuse to accept his or her bullish behaviour.

[Chrissy]

I'm pleased with how the forum handled this. There was a problem which was becoming ever more severe and the forum discussed it reasonably and calmly. A resolution appears to have been reached. Well done!
I don't agree. A member left in a disillusioned (possibly depressed) state who, I think, could use some support. It might not be a requirement in a forum, but it is in a community.

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No, a member whose caustic and in my opinion, immature, behaviour left willingly when others objected to that behaviour. It was effectively the same action as a child taking his or her ball and going home because his or her playmates refuse to accept his or her bullish behaviour.
This by "An old bloke". Just to show an example of immature behaviour: Here is a post (#7) that had absolutely nothing to do with fountain pens at all (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/36276-1930-quot-circa-quot-EDACOTO-WOOD-GRAIN-EBONITE-LEVER-FILLER-PEN-18K-SOLID-GOLD-NIB?p=363309&viewfull=1#post363309) but was merely an example of the action of a child taking his ball and going home because someone else actually got there before him and bought an item that was for sale to everyone on the forum as a Classified ad. A valued member of the forum was disparagingly called a "Boomer" merely for buying an item that was for sale. Is it a requirement of the forum or this community that he should have been supported if he had left because of this? Should the person exhibiting all of the bad behaviour be supported rather than those he has behaved badly towards? If he is in a depressed state then should he be here inflicting his modified behaviour on everyone else if this is the way it manifests itself? Or should he be seeking professional help instead?

I'm not revisiting this thread again. In fact I currently have much better things to do than come here to talk about this, so I'll take my time and do those other things instead.

[RobJohnson]

Wouldn't the use of the Ignore Button have protected you from any bad behaviour and therefore permitted some peaceful coexistence?

[Linger]

The ignore button is one solution. Another solution is, when you are confronted with a post that makes your blood boil, to try to see it as practicing your frustration tolerance. Practice makes perfect…

[Lloyd]

Chrissy - It isn't a requirement of the forum, but it is what would occur in a health community. It wouldn't be a matter of supporting one member and not the other. Both parties should receive support. If I had two kids and they fought due to the younger one feeling belittled, I wouldn't put one up for adoption.

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[Pterodactylus]

Overall again a thread which leads to nowhere…..

All people which complain about too less interesting content should first ask themselves: “How can I improve the situation by generating interesting stuff myself”.
Sometimes I have the feeling the attitude of many is: “I want to get entertained, but I don’t want to participate myself as content provider”.

As for the question of moderation, yes a good moderator is a good thing, but unfortunately good moderators are a very rare good.
Some people here would be really keen to get a Mod, but imho mostly the wrong ones.
E.g. Chrissy seems always want to become one, but to be honest if she would become a mod this would be a reason to consider to stop my contribution here.
I do not like her post #54, she plays often the moralizer but attacks also on a low level.
When she get pushbacks she often plays the prima donna.
For me she lost her reputation quite a while ago.

So no moderator is imho better than a bad one.


Ad “ignore”, yes an option.
Yes sometimes it is difficult to follow with people on the ignore list.
E.g. TSHerbs is on my personal ignore list a long time, this guy completely disqualified himself for me a long time ago, I have no intention to read something he writes here, even it make it difficult to follow a thread.

Interesting that EoC got again in focus in such a thread, but this does not surprise me.
Ad EoC, I like him, he is not an easy guy, and on quite some occasions I do not understand his motivation and I definitely do not agree with all he posts.
But he is a content provider, he raised a lot of interesting threads, has a different viewpoint, he enriches the forum.
Imho we need such crazy guys, a valuable member, definitely makes the forum brighter.
And his handwriting is awesome 🫠

[An old bloke]

Chrissy - It isn't a requirement of the forum, but it is what would occur in a health community. It wouldn't be a matter of supporting one member and not the other. Both parties should receive support. If I had two kids and they fought due to the younger one feeling belittled, I wouldn't put one up for adoption.

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Lloyd, I respect you and your input, and I have to ask is what I 'hear' you saying is that bad behaviour should be tolerated in a sense of 'fairness'? If so, I respect and commend you for your spirit of fairness and empathy, and I believe it is mis-guided in this instance.

As for your parental example, I have to ask you if one of your children was picking on a sibling or being a bully would you scold and/or punish the child?

Putting a child up for adoption because of a misdeed is not the same as what happened here. What happened here was someone who seemingly was bullying other members of this forum was confronted because of his/her behaviour and left as a result. No one was cast out.

[Lloyd]

EiC felt bullied. I'm not saying he was or wasn't. I'm not suggesting ignoring his outbursts. I'm suggesting calmly discussing them, either through PM or openly, to get to the heart of what the issue is. I did it and it resulted in a good relationship. You even saw a public post where I told him I felt he was in the wrong and he didn't react negatively. He felt disrespected here. Once he knew how much respect I had for him and gave him a few reasons why, he trusted me. It didn't take much, but it did take me reaching out.

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[adhoc]

I think so, given you avoid the "politics, religion, and society" subforum like the plague. I successfully avoided it for years and I regret ever posting there. I participate across many forums and this one is probably one of the best I know of.

[dneal]

EiC felt bullied. I'm not saying he was or wasn't. I'm not suggesting ignoring his outbursts. I'm suggesting calmly discussing them, either through PM or openly, to get to the heart of what the issue is. I did it and it resulted in a good relationship. You even saw a public post where I told him I felt he was in the wrong and he didn't react negatively. He felt disrespected here. Once he knew how much respect I had for him and gave him a few reasons why, he trusted me. It didn't take much, but it did take me reaching out.

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Been there, done that, with the member in question too.

Fred’s post (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/37139-Is-FPGeeks-still-a-pleasant-place-to-stay?p=364710&viewfull=1#post364710) is correct.

[Lloyd]

EiC felt bullied. I'm not saying he was or wasn't. I'm not suggesting ignoring his outbursts. I'm suggesting calmly discussing them, either through PM or openly, to get to the heart of what the issue is. I did it and it resulted in a good relationship. You even saw a public post where I told him I felt he was in the wrong and he didn't react negatively. He felt disrespected here. Once he knew how much respect I had for him and gave him a few reasons why, he trusted me. It didn't take much, but it did take me reaching out.

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Been there, done that, with the member in question too.

Fred’s post (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/37139-Is-FPGeeks-still-a-pleasant-place-to-stay?p=364710&viewfull=1#post364710) is correct.

Just because it's correct to you, doesn't make it universally correct.

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[dneal]

I didn't assert that it was universally correct.

[TSherbs]

As a reminder, I will note that the OP wrote more generally about this forum and the behavior over all. The degree that we continue to focus on one member perhaps highlights our reluctance to look in a mirror and improve the quality of our own interactions. Christof wrote more generally about the dynamics here. I accept my role in this, and, as I say, I am making steps to avoid similar patterns in the future.

[Lloyd]

I didn't assert that it was universally correct.
You didn't say it was correct to you, you labeled it as a correct statement.

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[724Seney]

@Lloyd: I am awed and inspired by your very obvious and genuine compassion. I do not know what you do, but you surely come across as an accomplished professional who has much experience in matters such as these.
I also want to agree, 100%, that there is not going to be anything which is "universally correct" in this matter.

But, I have to say that I, too, think that Fred’s post is correct. Even when dealing with needy humans, there comes a time when enough is enough. It's a matter of knowing "when to say when" and in this instance, personally, I think we are there. Some personalities simply cannot be rehabilitated and, indeed, some are actually fueled by the efforts of those kind spirits who keep trying to do so.

I do not anticipate you will agree...and that's fine...... but I do hope you understand this point of view.

I also agree that the OP's intent with this thread was about more than just this one individual. That is an important point which was already made by another.

[Lloyd]

@Lloyd: I am awed and inspired by your very obvious and genuine compassion. I do not know what you do, but you surely come across as an accomplished professional who has much experience in matters such as these.
I also want to agree, 100%, that there is not going to be anything which is "universally correct" in this matter.

But, I have to say that I, too, think that Fred’s post is correct. Even when dealing with needy humans, there comes a time when enough is enough. It's a matter of knowing "when to say when" and in this instance, personally, I think we are there. Some personalities simply cannot be rehabilitated and, indeed, some are actually fueled by the efforts of those kind spirits who keep trying to do so.

I do not anticipate you will agree...and that's fine...... but I do hope you understand this point of view.

I also agree that the OP's intent with this thread was about more than just this one individual. That is an important point which was already made by another.
Thanks for the complement. By interacting through PM with EoC, and seeing his positive and negative posts on the forum, I think that, while he may have needed more support, he was a very valuable member who was trying to be a positive spark here. As for the op's query, I think it goes way beyond EoC, or at least should. There are many here who are quick to point the finger at others but refuse to look in a mirror.

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[724Seney]

@Lloyd: I am awed and inspired by your very obvious and genuine compassion. I do not know what you do, but you surely come across as an accomplished professional who has much experience in matters such as these.
I also want to agree, 100%, that there is not going to be anything which is "universally correct" in this matter.

But, I have to say that I, too, think that Fred’s post is correct. Even when dealing with needy humans, there comes a time when enough is enough. It's a matter of knowing "when to say when" and in this instance, personally, I think we are there. Some personalities simply cannot be rehabilitated and, indeed, some are actually fueled by the efforts of those kind spirits who keep trying to do so.

I do not anticipate you will agree...and that's fine...... but I do hope you understand this point of view.

I also agree that the OP's intent with this thread was about more than just this one individual. That is an important point which was already made by another.
Thanks for the complement. By interacting through PM with EoC, and seeing his positive and negative posts on the forum, I think that, while he may have needed more support, he was a very valuable member who was trying to be a positive spark here. As for the op's query, I think it goes way beyond EoC, or at least should. There are many here who are quick to point the finger at others but refuse to look in a mirror.

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Others have tried....and failed.
But that should not dissuade you from trying; I wish you the best for much success.

[dneal]

I didn't assert that it was universally correct.
You didn't say it was correct to you, you labeled it as a correct statement.

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We don't have to play out your Monty Python signature. You can have your experience and opinion, and I can have mine.

I have on two occasions had conversations with the member in question, along the lines of what you describe; which is why I quoted you.

My personal experience is that Fred's hypothesis is correct. My personal observations are that Fred's hypothesis is correct.

[Lloyd]

Thank you, dneal, for making it a subjective comment. I can believe your two attempts failed with EoC. However, perhaps it was the tone as read that he misunderstood. He may have painted an image of you, realistic or not, that he biased your writing by. Perhaps if you didn't come across in some posts the way you do, he'd be more open to your support. It's just a theory, but it's worth wondering if we are trying to dominate or be peers.

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[TSherbs]

Oops

[TSherbs]

Yes, maybe he did contribute amply at times but there were others when he degenerated into being an aggressive name caller...

This could be describing several persons here without much stretching, me among them.

[dneal]

Thank you, dneal, for making it a subjective comment. I can believe your two attempts failed with EoC. However, perhaps it was the tone as read that he misunderstood. He may have painted an image of you, realistic or not, that he biased your writing by. Perhaps if you didn't come across in some posts the way you do, he'd be more open to your support. It's just a theory, but it's worth wondering if we are trying to dominate or be peers.

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Your speculation on the motives and minds of two individuals' personal conversations you were not part of are unnecessary, at best. I don’t know what set him off this last time. I saw the spat with Jon. I saw the “you can’t go home” thread. Once the P51 thread got contentious, I offered words of concern and compassion. I deleted them and went full drill sergeant when he started with the PIF business. I give him a lot more leeway than others, for the reasons you mention; and because he does start novel threads in an otherwise slow forum - but the PIF thing went to far, for me.

Fred could have posted that same comment years ago, and I would agree then too. I remember his previous screen name, I remember when he referred to his recent name in 3rd person. I remember many occasions when he “threatened” to leave. I have poked him for that and his eccentricities, but I have accepted them too. I have no problem acknowledging I can be abrasive, and why. I can also be compassionate and supportive (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/35640-Crowdsourcing), despite my agreement with Fred’s assessment.

Do I want EoC to leave? Not really. I find this forum a pleasant place to visit, to address the OP. I also understand human personality and behavior falls across a spectrum, as do the nature(s?) of internet forums. This one, without moderation, is a bit like a playground. We kids will have our spats, form cliques, and apply peer pressure and even bully to moderate group behavior. We will also offer advice, kindness and generosity. I’m ok with that, and all that does or doesn’t come with it.

[An old bloke]

At what point does this conversation become an example of what is meant by the expression 'flogging a dead horse'?

[TSherbs]

It doesn't have to be flogging at all.

[Lloyd]

dneal, with all due respect, my view of your posts differs greatly from yours. I read the full P51 thread (EoC saved it and shared it) and your words could not be justified. I wish you would read more of your own posts as thoroughly, and as much in an attempt to use it against someone else, as you do to other's posts.

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[Lloyd]

At what point does this conversation become an example of what is meant by the expression 'flogging a dead horse'?
Unfortunately, we can't kill the horse as it holds the whip.

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[dneal]

dneal, with all due respect, my view of your posts differs greatly from yours. I read the full P51 thread (EoC saved it and shared it) and your words could not be justified. I wish you would read more of your own posts as thoroughly, and as much in an attempt to use it against the poster, as you do to other's posts.

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I am very cognizant of what I post, and why. I'm well aware this medium is prone to misunderstanding. Expletives are not, which is why I use them when I choose. I make no apologies for it. EoC is entitled to his perspective, and so are you.

Perhaps you would do well to heed your own advice. Your posts now appear to me to be petty and bickering - your Monty Python argument. I'm done playing with that. There is much you seemingly are not aware of, and certainly much you are not privy to.

[TSherbs]

Believe me, I thought for a very long time whether I should really write the following. Especially at a time when there is more arguing than interesting content being posted. The reason why I do it anyway? - I have come to appreciate this forum very much, and its members as well. It has become dear to me.

I really like the idea of an unmoderated forum. After all, we are all adult persons and for a long time this worked very well but for some time I have less and less desire to come here. :(

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not accusing anyone. But I wonder why there has been a spiteful tone here for some time. And I wonder why this forum is dominated by threads who hardly contribute any interesting content? And why are there hostile camps among the members instead of beeing just a community? What is the appeal of arguing on the internet and why don't we all try to make this forum a pleasant place to escape to for recreation from our daily lives?

I am not a judge and I will not take sides. But I ask you to think about, what kind of content you'd like to read. Shouldn't we all try to create more of interesting stuff and just ignore what we don't like? I am convinced that in this forum is enough space for everyone.

Christof

As of the moment that I am quoting this, 18 members approved of the post. It's the most popular post in this thread. It deserves a reminder.

[Lloyd]

dneal, with all due respect, my view of your posts differs greatly from yours. I read the full P51 thread (EoC saved it and shared it) and your words could not be justified. I wish you would read more of your own posts as thoroughly, and as much in an attempt to use it against the poster, as you do to other's posts.

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I am very cognizant of what I post, and why. I'm well aware this medium is prone to misunderstanding. Expletives are not, which is why I use them when I choose. I make no apologies for it. EoC is entitled to his perspective, and so are you.

Perhaps you would do well to heed your own advice. Your posts now appear to me to be petty and bickering - your Monty Python argument. I'm done playing with that. There is much you seemingly are not aware of, and certainly much you are not privy to.
I'm far from "here for an argument". Unlike many of your postings, I'm sincere and have largely avoided personal attacks and the use of overly aggressive tones. If you mean by "not privy to" you mean that a bunch of members were PMing about EoC, that doesn't concern me (although you or they might want to admit it openly). I haven't posted anything contentious or offensive in this thread, have I? If you feel like it's pointless, you needn't read not post in it.
Also, many members here would disagree with your self-evaluation. You may acknowledge your improper posts, but you filter the intensity of their egregiousness.

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[Lloyd]

To answer the title's question- it depends on where you go within the forum and what you want to experience here.

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[dneal]

You're not here for an argument, and then post an argument.

You sir, appear to be holding the horsewhip. Beat away, but you'll have to do it without me.

[An old bloke]

What I want to experience here is what this forum was created to provide. That is conversation about fountain pens, their accoutrements, use, and other related matters.

Can we now end this discussion and move on to the subjects of pens and inks?



Oh, and for the record, everything I have had to say to anyone here about this 'episode', or persons involved has been done in open forum only.

[Lloyd]

You're not here for an argument, and then post an argument.

You sir, appear to be holding the horsewhip. Beat away, but you'll have to do it without me.
I'm not here (in this thread nor in this forum) for an argument. I'm not sure why you, or anyone, minds my statements in this thread. They haven't been directed harshly at anyone and they are connected with the op's query. I'd like to see a warmer, more supportive, community. Even within the political+ subforum, it isn't about learning others views in an effort to see both sides and strengthen the group, it's often an US vs THEM palace of mockery. I'm not going to point fingers at individuals nor trigger-topics, I'm merely stating what I've seen. As I've written, I doubt many would discuss things and treat each other, brothers and sisters of a small pen-loving community, this way in person. Why act this way here?

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[Lloyd]

To those complaining about potential horse-whipping, no one in this forum needs to stay in this thread. I'm not calling anyone names. I feel it's relevant to both the op's post and recent events. If the op requests here or via pm that I desist, I will.

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[RobJohnson]

I'm pleased with how the forum handled this. There was a problem which was becoming ever more severe and the forum discussed it reasonably and calmly. A resolution appears to have been reached. Well done!

You would appear to be saying that the forum colluded by joint enterprise to produce a situation where the continued participation of one member was untenable and that you and/or others chose this path for yourselves as opposed to Ignoring their posts.

[eachan]

I'm pleased with how the forum handled this. There was a problem which was becoming ever more severe and the forum discussed it reasonably and calmly. A resolution appears to have been reached. Well done!

You would appear to be saying that the forum colluded by joint enterprise to produce a situation where the continued participation of one member was untenable and that you and/or others chose this path for yourselves as opposed to Ignoring their posts.

That's your spin on it. I said what I said and it isn't improved by your interpretation.

[Niner]

The "Politics, Religion, and Culture" sub-forum has turned into the "Lord of the Flies". Unfortunate, there's now a bridge from that subforum to the rest of this forum.

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Ha! I teach that book to 9th graders (finished it about a month ago).

(Thread hijack?) I have something to say about that book to anyone who is interested.

[Lloyd]

The "Politics, Religion, and Culture" sub-forum has turned into the "Lord of the Flies". Unfortunate, there's now a bridge from that subforum to the rest of this forum.


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Ha! I teach that book to 9th graders (finished it about a month ago).

(Thread hijack?) I have something to say about that book to anyone who is interested.
Was it based on one of your boy scout adventures that went awry? 😄
(I thought I'd add a bit of levity to this serious thread. It's the way my brain works.)

Why not start a new thread here, Niner?
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[Niner]

(Thread hijack?) I have something to say about that book to anyone who is interested.
Was it based on one of your boy scout adventures that went awry? 😄
.
.
.
Why not start a new thread here, Niner?
Oh, no! I wasn't prepared for that.

[Lloyd]

(Thread hijack?) I have something to say about that book to anyone who is interested.
Was it based on one of your boy scout adventures that went awry? 😄
.
.
.
Why not start a new thread here, Niner?
Oh, no! I wasn't prepared for that.
Please?

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[Niner]

Please?
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Boy Scouts are to be "always prepared". But I wasn't, having hijacked a thread rather than creating a new one. I realize that my previous reply to you was obscure. Sorry.

[Chip]

I'm puzzled. Could someone post a calm and collected summary of the events leading to EoC's dramatic exit?

I had one tiff with him, months ago, over his disregard of elementary physics in predicting a human exodus to the stars. I was rude and apologised, and he accepted in good part. Otherwise, I got on well with him.

Evidently, there was quite a lot that I missed.

Any help?

[An old bloke]

I'm puzzled. Could someone post a calm and collected summary of the events leading to EoC's dramatic exit?

I had one tiff with him, months ago, over his disregard of elementary physics in predicting a human exodus to the stars. I was rude and apologised, and he accepted in good part. Otherwise, I got on well with him.

Evidently, there was quite a lot that I missed.

Any help?

Start anywhere you like on this thread from the bottom of page one on to about the middle of page four and all will be revealed.

[jar]

There is always the odd chance that someone might post incorrect material or even annoying content.

I'm pretty sure it's just another Urban Legend but the story goes that someone really did post something that's wrong on the Internet.

[Lloyd]

There is always the odd chance that someone might post incorrect material or even annoying content.

I'm pretty sure it's just another Urban Legend but the story goes that someone really did post something that's wrong on the Internet.
Thankfully, two wrongs make a right.

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[Farmboy]

There is always the odd chance that someone might post incorrect material or even annoying content.

I'm pretty sure it's just another Urban Legend but the story goes that someone really did post something that's wrong on the Internet.
Thankfully, two wrongs make a right.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
I thought it was three lefts to make a right.

[Lloyd]

There is always the odd chance that someone might post incorrect material or even annoying content.

I'm pretty sure it's just another Urban Legend but the story goes that someone really did post something that's wrong on the Internet.
Thankfully, two wrongs make a right.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
I thought it was three lefts to make a right.
Of course. That's because one wrong equals 1½ lefts.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Seattleite]

There is always the odd chance that someone might post incorrect material or even annoying content.

I'm pretty sure it's just another Urban Legend but the story goes that someone really did post something that's wrong on the Internet.
Thankfully, two wrongs make a right.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
I thought it was three lefts to make a right.

These days, three Lefts make a "Mostly" Peaceful Protest in my town and call it a right. On Twitter, three Lefts cancel a Right.... and call it a right :facepalm:

Bob

[TSherbs]

ok thats pretty funny!

[TFarnon]

I already go to the kind of content I'd like to read--stuff about pens, pictures of pens, and pens for sale (with pictures). Occasionally I go to the off-topic threads when something really has me riled up, like COVID, or MAGATs, but I don't really have the headspace to do that very often. I'm fairly new to the hobby. I'd call myself a collector, but I haven't narrowed my focus despite efforts to do so. I like old pens and new pens, expensive pens and inexpensive pens.
I would like to attend a pen show, probably the one in San Francisco. I'm still too nervous about COVID to attend this year, so I'm making tentative plans for next year. I imagine pen shows are kind of like family gatherings, at least with my family. Everyone tries to behave civilly, as long as you don't count some silliness like making the glasses ring at the dinner table (woo--wild stuff, huh?). I imagine that more money exchanges hands at pen shows, too.

There are some pens listed on these boards that I would never buy because I already have one like it, don't feel an intense longing to have such a pen, or don't want to pay that much for a pen. I'm not offended if someone offers a pen that doesn't pique my interest. The same applies in the broader pen world. There are some brands and some vendors I won't buy from. Sometimes it's just that I'm not into their offerings. Sometimes it's not liking their politics. But hey, that's their business. I'll just wander off in search of something that catches my eye. What remains of my life (20 to 40 years, guessing) is too short to be doing things I don't enjoy.

I prefer these boards to other boards in part because of the layout. I like the look better than that on FPN. I like the content better than that on Reddit, although sometimes things get unbelievably, comically silly on Reddit. There's room for both in my brain.

I guess that's about it.

[Lloyd]

What remains of my life (̶2̶0̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶4̶0̶ ̶y̶e̶a̶r̶s̶,̶ ̶g̶u̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶)̶ is too short to be doing things I don't enjoy.
Whether you're 9 or 90, life is too short. There's just two categories for anything you should be spending your time on: HAVE TO and WANT TO, which are not mutually exclusive.


Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Pendragon]

Believe me, I thought for a very long time whether I should really write the following. Especially at a time when there is more arguing than interesting content being posted.
What the hell happened here anyway? I log on after being gone awhile and find the place turned into a warzone. Some folks, people who are normally very easygoing and civil, are being total douchebags to one another. At least one member apparently leaving, and entire threads vanishing. Wow!


I really like the idea of an unmoderated forum.
It's great until it's not. Other unmoderated forums I have seen soon devolved into big messes.


I'm still too nervous about COVID to attend this year, so I'm making tentative plans for next year.
I wouldn't worry too much about COVID. They don't even require wearing a mask in the Bay Area anymore. Pretty much everyone has either had COVID or been vaxxed to hell and back. Things are safe enough now that most companies are calling people back into the office. That would not be happening unless COVID was under control.


I imagine pen shows are kind of like family gatherings, at least with my family. Everyone tries to behave civilly, as long as you don't count some silliness like making the glasses ring at the dinner table (woo--wild stuff, huh?). I imagine that more money exchanges hands at pen shows, too.
To say people are nice and the vibe is cool at the SF Pen Show would be a great understatement. Jon's recap of the 2019 show is here (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/29000-2019-San-Francisco-International-Pen-Show-Recap!), and is spot on. It really is that awesome.

I hope you don't let the nonsense on pen forums dissuade you from going to pen shows. People are super nice at the shows.

[jar]

There was a reason that at big family dinners there was a table for the adults and another for the kids.

[Lloyd]

Overall it's okay as long as you steer clear of a particular group of old-timers who feel challenged by imagination and creativity.

The OP made a massive mistake creating this thread. Showed real naivety. And it went along a precisely predictable path.
I think it's a naive assumption/stereotype that the oldtimers lack or are threatened by creativity and imagination. Sometimes, we enjoy when our spouses talk in a cutesy voice, but we'd divorce them if they did it all the time.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[An old bloke]

Actually I should have said that this particular group is challenged by the absurd notion that people may have different experiences than their own.


There was a reason that at big family dinners there was a table for the adults and another for the kids.

I'd rather sit at the kids table, there is more honesty there.

I am not the brightest light in the house by a long shot so I have to ask, does a comment line that reads, "Caution - this forum permits bullying", exhibit a provocative attitude of the writer and thereby create hostility towards the him or her? While I'm at it, wouldn't such an attitude provoke confrontations that one might consider to be bullying?

I also have two questions about your adult and children's tables. Am I mistaken in my belief that the main reason there are two such tables at family events is because different behaviours are expected from adults and children? I have to ask because the adults I associate with are honest people who speak candidly and accept the opinions of other with respect. Is the impression that there is more honesty at the chidren's table a matter of opinion?

[Farmboy]

I remember the kids table. It was a good foot or more closer to the ground and had stubby chairs to match. I always thought it was size related—when your knees floated the table you got promoted.

[Pendragon]

There was a reason that at big family dinners there was a table for the adults and another for the kids.
Because the adults usually got too hammered to prevail in the food fight?

[Lloyd]

There's always too much griping at the old-folks table.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[An old bloke]

There's always too much griping at the old-folks table.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

The whining at the kids' table is rather annoying.

[Lloyd]

There's always too much griping at the old-folks table.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

The whining at the kids' table is rather annoying.
Not at the ones I sat at.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[RobJohnson]

Does anyone else take the view that the bad behaviour of one particulr individual has had far too attention and for far too many years, a constant barrage of wanting to behave as they wish and then moan and complain that the world does not revolve around them?

I have tried support, advice, criticism and persuasion.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Does anyone else take the view that the bad behaviour of one particulr individual has had far too attention and for far too many years, a constant barrage of wanting to behave as they wish and then moan and complain that the world does not revolve around them?

I have tried support, advice, criticism and persuasion.
Give up.

Push off.

[An old bloke]

What I find interesting is that an individual who left this forum claiming never to return because of the the very things that are once again subjects of complaint has now returned, and is upset again.

I believe that just might qualify as a form of masochism.

[Lloyd]

Lip service hardly equates with trying.

What I want is to be able to express myself creatively without being shutdown in a prejudicial manner by people who lack tolerance for difference. Fortunately that is restricted to just a few members, but they unduly colour the forum.

What I also want is for people to respect that the experiences I've had are real and are not to be dismissed because they don't align with what other people experience. Note, I do not lie about my experiences, I report them as they are/were.

What I've always wanted is introductions in the pen-world so that I can find certain pens that I can then purchase. Not much to ask but apparently beyond the capacity of those who claim to be FP people and therefore better people. While I don't like to speak up for myself, I have been considerably more generous on this site than most of my detractors put together.
Not everyone likes the same art. No creative displays are universally liked. What does an artist do if their local community doesn't enjoy their art? They can continue to show the same art to bad local response, go to a different audience, or try a different way of expressing themselves.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Writing can be a creative art. I don't like all art, but I appreciate the skill and creativity that I experience even in art I don't personally want in my house. Here it is a tiny vocal minority who make the most complaints. My art, the creative side of my writing, is always in flux, changing with my moods and the continuing collection of experiences. Unfortunately there are some members here who don't like what I do because it is me doing it. It's a real blinkering exercise for them. They shut themselves off from the joy of discovery and exploration to further their personal enmity, and for that I pity them.

The point is, you don't have to like everything, but that is not an excuse to try and suppress things.

edit: watch the 'just some pen pics from time to time' thread. My pictures won't get any likes. Not because they are bad pictures, but because they are MY pictures.

[RobJohnson]

Writing can be a creative art. I don't like all art, but I appreciate the skill and creativity that I experience even in art I don't personally want in my house. Here it is a tiny vocal minority who make the most complaints. My art, the creative side of my writing, is always in flux, changing with my moods and the continuing collection of experiences. Unfortunately there are some members here who don't like what I do because it is me doing it. It's a real blinkering exercise for them. They shut themselves off from the joy of discovery and exploration to further their personal enmity, and for that I pity them.

The point is, you don't have to like everything, but that is not an excuse to try and suppress things.

edit: watch the 'just some pen pics from time to time' thread. My pictures won't get any likes. Not because they are bad pictures, but because they are MY pictures.

No they are bad, out of focus, poor use of light and colour, just not interesting either by subject or photographic skill.

What is more accurate to say is that they are bad and yours. You need to remember is that a signicant number of this small community have you on ignore and others roll their eyes and think wtf.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

A significant number? Where's your data... oh, that's right, there isn't any cos you just made that up. I love how people use the old fake formula (or variations) of 'everyone knows'. It's just shoddy.


No they are bad, out of focus, poor use of light and colour, just not very interesting enough.

Typically ignorant thing to say when you have zero understanding of the purpose behind taking those images. In the last three images, the light, colour and focus are all precisely as I intended them to be. May not be to your taste, but as an expression they do just fine. Your comment is in bad faith, and is offered only to try and demean my efforts, no other reason.

There are many photos that christof posts that I think are uninteresting from a compositional approach. Others that are only technical exercises, and appear sterile. Many that I see as somewhat derivative. I may not be a trained photographer, but I was raised by a sublimely skilled artist to appreciate art in its many facets.

How about you put something of yours up and let me critique it for you? At least you have my word that I will be as impartial as possible, unlike your approach.

[Lloyd]

Writing can be a creative art. I don't like all art, but I appreciate the skill and creativity that I experience even in art I don't personally want in my house. Here it is a tiny vocal minority who make the most complaints. My art, the creative side of my writing, is always in flux, changing with my moods and the continuing collection of experiences. Unfortunately there are some members here who don't like what I do because it is me doing it. It's a real blinkering exercise for them. They shut themselves off from the joy of discovery and exploration to further their personal enmity, and for that I pity them.

The point is, you don't have to like everything, but that is not an excuse to try and suppress things.

edit: watch the 'just some pen pics from time to time' thread. My pictures won't get any likes. Not because they are bad pictures, but because they are MY pictures.
This is others' house, too. They're not saying that you shouldn't express yourself, just that your "roommates" have different taste than you so they don't like your art hanging in the shared spaces.
Just because others don't applaud your work, doesn't make them hateful of you nor does it imply that they lack imagination or artistic appreciation. You might hate free jazz or classic rock or baroque or early country music. To each their own passions, preferences, and sensitivities.


Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[migo984]

No they are bad, out of focus, poor use of light and colour, just not interesting either by subject or photographic skill.

What is more accurate to say is that they are bad and yours. You need to remember is that a signicant number of this small community have you on ignore and others roll their eyes and think wtf.

Jeez - what a comment. I didn’t think you needed to have a certain level of photographic skill, or fascinating subject matter, that pass some kind of ‘worthy’ test by members, in order to post on here.

I have only bog-standard pens, no special lighting nor anything other than a phone camera. I’ve always been reluctant to post my pedestrian photos in the past, due to the judgemental nature of members, and now I’m even more so. I’m sure my photos would be deemed “bad”.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

It's also supposed to be a 'house' where people can encourage and be encouraged. And you are reading far too much into why people hit 'like' on a post. If you run through the various forums you will see the same people liking the same people. It has the whiff of sycophancy.

People have 'liked' some of my pictures in the past. Even disagreeable people. Watch that stop now. The images are no different but the attitude is now mostly personal. Kind of don't look at the message, just shoot the messenger. Well, you will all say that this is entirely my fault of course, but that doesn't mean I have to keep quiet about it.

Anyway, as for my creative writing, I feel you are not really reading what I have written. To recap, my creativity is an evolving art. I don't expect everyone to like it all the time, never did. One of the major, major differences between me and a lot of people on this site is that I always have appreciation for what people create irrespective of who creates it. The naysayers are the ones who cannot get past the person. It's really that simple.

[Lloyd]

No they are bad, out of focus, poor use of light and colour, just not interesting either by subject or photographic skill.

What is more accurate to say is that they are bad and yours. You need to remember is that a signicant number of this small community have you on ignore and others roll their eyes and think wtf.

Jeez - what a comment. I didn’t think you needed to have a certain level of photographic skill, or fascinating subject matter, that pass some kind of ‘worthy’ test by members, in order to post on here.

I have only bog-standard pens, no special lighting nor anything other than a phone camera. I’ve always been reluctant to post my pedestrian photos in the past, due to the judgemental nature of members, and now I’m even more so. I’m sure my photos would be deemed “bad”.

Apparently, no one has thanked him. Aside from Rob, I don't think anyone has harshly criticized them. Having just looked, I only liked one of his recent ones enough to give a LIKE. That shouldn't matter. There's plenty here I don't give a LIKE to. I don't applaud every song at every concert. It would be disingenuous. Eventually, such LIKES become hollow.
It shouldn't matter who you impress; it should matter who you help in some way.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

No they are bad, out of focus, poor use of light and colour, just not interesting either by subject or photographic skill.

What is more accurate to say is that they are bad and yours. You need to remember is that a signicant number of this small community have you on ignore and others roll their eyes and think wtf.

Jeez - what a comment. I didn’t think you needed to have a certain level of photographic skill, or fascinating subject matter, that pass some kind of ‘worthy’ test by members, in order to post on here.

I have only bog-standard pens, no special lighting nor anything other than a phone camera. I’ve always been reluctant to post my pedestrian photos in the past, due to the judgemental nature of members, and now I’m even more so. I’m sure my photos would be deemed “bad”.


Thanks for weighing in, but this is ugly and I don't recommend engagement.

The comment of RobJohnson is only aimed at me, not at anyone else. It is a personal attack.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Apparently, no one has thanked him. Aside from Rob, I don't think anyone has harshly criticized them. Having just looked, I only liked one of his recent ones enough to give a LIKE. That shouldn't matter. There's plenty here I don't give a LIKE to. I don't applaud every song at every concert. It would be disingenuous. Eventually, such LIKES become hollow.
It shouldn't matter who you impress; it should matter who you help in some way.

It's not about trying to impress. Likes or comments are the only measure (outside of my own perspective of course) for whether I have created something that others may find pleasing or interesting. It's not a popularity contest, it's just feedback. A lot of 'likes' elsewhere though, by the gang of four, appear to be participation votes.

[RobJohnson]

My post was in relation to your comment, ' my pictures do not get any likes and not because they are bad pictures, it s because they are my pictures'

If you are seeking 'likes' you are in the wrong place, not only because likes are not on the menu but only Thanks, which I interpret as an appreciation for something that has been said or for going the extra mile in producing something for the benefit or interest if others.

The idea that you are seeking 'likes' explains a lot. If you are seeking approval for out of focus and bland shots that you have taken then you cannot really expect much in way of positivity from others who may not be aware of your intentions and, particularly, do not care too much whatever your intentions might be.

You have complained that there is no freedom of expression on fpg which is a load of rubbish, why not start your own photo thread, clearly headed eoc's pen pics in order that the true experts who appreciate your pen art can find your pics quickly and easily without having to scroll through all the tat which clutters up the Pen Pics thread.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I've clearly explained that I am not seeking 'likes' but view them only as a form of feedback. Your continued insistence to the contrary shows that you are not interested in anything other than your own story.

True experts? What does that mean? I consider myself to have some expertise in appraising art. Or did you mean something specifically shaped to exclude me?

The pen pic thread isn't about trying to produce pin sharp catalogue type images. Many of which have no compositional qualities whatsoever. It looks like you only understand technique and have little idea about art.

As for your remark on freedom of expression... I see the blinkers going back on. That's not unexpected. You've read some of the comments here, but have not really understood them. Under this situation I can hardly expect a good faith discussion, and this is not what you are interested in anyway.

[Lloyd]

What if those going through that thread (I seldom do) don't think highly of your images? Does that necessarily mean they hate you? Does it mean they are incapable of seeing your artistic merits? Who's to decide the value of any photo? If they like each other's photos, why is that in some way wrong?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

It's not so much whether anyone appreciates the images, what is noticeable is certain names that used to crop up do so no longer. I find that interesting and likely indicative of group think. There is a cohort of regular viewers after all on those threads, but they appear to be uninterested in encouraging all participants and have decided so along the lines of who they approve of rather than the images offered.


Who's to decide the value of any photo? Well, let me introduce you to @RobJohnson, self=appointed expert on all things arty. Ask him, but bear in mind that he would probably criticise van Gogh for not painting photorealistic images, and using non-standard perspectives. ;)

[eachan]

Reverting to the original question, the answer is, Fountain Pen Geeks used to be pleasant. It's not now. I have better things to do than read post after post of unremitting childish malice. I'm going to take a break from here.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Hasn't been very pleasant for a long time. I hope you have the chance to reflect on your part in this.

[RobJohnson]

It's not so much whether anyone appreciates the images, what is noticeable is certain names that used to crop up do so no longer. I find that interesting and likely indicative of group think. There is a cohort of regular viewers after all on those threads, but they appear to be uninterested in encouraging all participants and have decided so along the lines of who they approve of rather than the images offered.


Who's to decide the value of any photo? Well, let me introduce you to @RobJohnson, self=appointed expert on all things arty. Ask him, but bear in mind that he would probably criticise van Gogh for not painting photorealistic images, and using non-standard perspectives. ;)

Pathetic.

You complain about not getting enough, or even any, likes or thanks, I tell you of the reason why I think this is the case and by way of a rebuttal you crticise me without having any knowledge of my credentials.

i have spent enough time with you and have had enough of your insults.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

And you have no knowledge of my credentials - really, none whatsoever. Didn't stop you wading in with insults of your own. Now you will dodge responsibility for your contributions. It's a familiar pattern among those who have a go at me but refuse to look in the mirror from time to time.

edit: how about going and making a supposedly 'informed' comment on my latest image upload, hmm?

[jar]

Insult can be a high art. As an example once I told an acquaintance "I went by your house yesterday." He replied "Thank you!"

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Highly amusing, Mr Richardson. I think I've seen that one before, but it sounds suspiciously like a Groucho comment. Perhaps Lloyd could illuminate.

[dneal]

This


Overall it's okay as long as you steer clear of a particular group of old-timers who feel challenged by imagination and creativity.

The OP made a massive mistake creating this thread. Showed real naivety. And it went along a precisely predictable path.

is followed by this:


Hasn't been very pleasant for a long time. I hope you have the chance to reflect on your part in this.

You'll likely respond with some form of deflection that accuses me and ignores you, and that is your problem. You seem to refuse to reflect on your part. Not mine, not those in the ever-growing list of some "club" that dislikes you that you seem to be developing; your part.

You reenter the fray with no apology nor act of contrition for your own behavior. You begin with insult, and then bemoan the responses. The OP appeared to have pure (if naive) intentions, and earned malicious disruption to their thread for it.

You still seem more intent on making yourself appear a martyr, and can't comprehend why it results in you being a pariah. You won't until you reflect on your part, and take ownership of your own behavior.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Oh, I reflected on my part. The problem is that it makes no difference what I do or say to people with closed minds and no intention of opening them. Apologies or acts of contrition fall wasted by the side of the path. I always take ownership of my behaviour, and always have. My perspective on what happens may differ from other perspectives but that does not make it invalid or any less hurtful.

I have no interest in being a martyr. What I want is for this place to be a venue where people are welcomed from all walks and backgrounds and skills and quirks. Where people are encouraged to learn and perhaps try new things. And not be beholden to a small group of older members whose outlook is mostly a product of the last century.

What gives me joy here is seeing people step out into new territory, exploring new things. What gives me pause is the lacklustre engagement from the long in tooth.

You won't see me demeaning or decrying someone's efforts to innovate or be creative.

[dneal]

Oh, I reflected on my part.

This would be more convincing if it were not followed by several sentences ascribing the problem to others, including the insults about "lacklustre engagement" from members who are "long in the tooth", "whose outlook is mostly a product of the last century".

Instead, you could begin with an apology to christof, who is clearly an innocent in all this.

[bunnspecial]

I'm going to paraphrase two statements that I seem to keep reading in all of this...

"You all are just old and set in your ways and hate any idea that's different from your own"

"If you don't unconditionally accept my opinions even if they're different from everyone else's it has to be because you don't like me"

So, fundamentally it's okay to throw around insults at everyone who you disagree with, but if you make a statement that someone challenges, it's personal and it's because they dislike you.

What a mess, and as I see it it's entirely of one person's making at least now.

[724Seney]

Be aware that well-practiced manipulation techniques were just applied...again. I suggest not being taken in or feeling sorry.

This very same pattern has been exhibited over the years that have sought to shift responsibility, blame and even guilt for misbehavior onto other members as part of some kind of emotional neediness. Then there are these publicly declared departures to elicit sympathy - only to drift back into the forum again for a honeymoon period until the misbehavior begins anew. A search on member ID and the word "goodbye" will show just a sliver of the history and the grudges.

Like a close call with a con artist, learn the lesson what to watch out for and ignore, then move on to enjoy this community with the majority of its members and our pens!

Given yesterday and today's rants from our resident "malcontent," it seems like a good time to remind everyone of the sage wisdom / advice provided by @FredRydr way back in post #31 of this thread.

Unfortunately, this activity is the FPG equivalent of Bill Murray's "Ground Hog Day."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog_Day_(film)

Sadly, all we have to look forward to is our next brief breath of fresh air when he once again proclaims he is "leaving FPG for good."
No such luck...........

C'mon Eric, won't you PLEASE pull the plug?????

[An old bloke]

Hasn't been very pleasant for a long time. I hope you have the chance to reflect on your part in this.
Ill give you one very honest opinion.

Your behaviour on this forum has been and is that of an obnoxious troll. You proved that was when called another member a 'viperous hag'.

What surprises me is that not one person here took exception to it. To me, that says they are bending over backwards to placate you or their perception of what is appropriate speech in a public forum is greatly lacking.



Edited to correct typographical errors.

[TSherbs]

What a mess, and as I see it it's entirely of one person's making at least now.

[emphasis mine]

Oh gosh no. There is group culpability here. Or no one would reply and you'd all just move along. Yet that is not what happens. There is lingering, malingering, backhanding, passive-agressive postures and gestures, mockery, from several persons (I've done all of these at some point or other, also).

But "entirely of one person's making"? Hell no.

I have not commented on this recently, but I'll repeat some things that I have said from the beginning of my membership here:

FPG is a small, cliquish place. EoC's description strikes me as too bitter, but not incorrect. And I was writing the same things back in 2013. This place has frequently been inimical to strong, new personalities that have lacked proper deference (determined by whomever). There is ass-kissing, back-channel commentary, and the public acknowledgement processes of "thanks" and "reputation" to reinforce some of the group identities around here. You know what I mean.

EoC, it seems to me, has been repeatedly rejected by many members in part because his outlook and attitude are different. I remember his 3rd-person persona (or was it a second-person plural?). Sure, it was off-putting at first, but I am a teacher of writing and it was clear that he was toying with the idea that we all operate here behind a persona of at least some fictional masking. He's changed his user name (now it is a Zen one), and he has toyed again with p.o.v. -- the AI "we". So what? We're all hiding behind the internet in actual lives tht we rarely reveal here; EoC's writing sometimes just reminds us of that starkly.

Sure, EoC can be abrasive and annoying. There are times I think "here we go again." But I think that about a dozen of you, and I am sure that you think it of me. There is a group-feed mentality around here, and right now EoC is triggering the toothy fish to come hunting. Whether he "deserves" it or not, let's not pretend that we are not all culpable for the condition of the waters and the feeding habits of the fish. We are the fish.

In case you are thinking so, understand that despite my occasional defenses of EoC on these threads, he and I are not back-channel talking about any of this. He may even tell me now how I have things wrong.

[An old bloke]

What a mess, and as I see it it's entirely of one person's making at least now.

[emphasis mine]

Oh gosh no. There is group culpability here. Or no one would reply and you'd all just move along. Yet that is not what happens. There is lingering, malingering, backhanding, passive-agressive postures and gestures, mockery, from several persons (I've done all of these at some point or other, also).

But "entirely of one person's making"? Hell no.



There is a distinct difference between proactive and reactive.

I will add that any social grouping has an element of cliquishness. That, I believe, is a natural consequence of shared interests and generally not exclusionary.

Am I a member of such a clique here? I doubt it. Given that my PM message box remains empty, I would say I am a 'non-person' here and that is fine with me.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Cliques are by definition exclusionary.

[Chip]

Your behaviour on this forum has been and is that of an obnoxious troll. You proved that was when called another member a 'viperous hag.'

Sounds like a bit from Shakespeare. Or perhaps Rabelais. I love that imaginative sort of insult, as opposed to "dick," "a-hole," "loser," etc.

https://emblazenedsojournings.blogspot.com/2005/07/shakespearian-insults-from-fluffy.html

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Close! Any English person in their 50s, possessing average intelligence and wit, and who has not been living under a rock, would have immediately spotted that it was a nod to the inimitable dialogue of Edmund Blackadder - especially series 2 and 3. As the series 2 was set in Elizabethan times there is a clear Shakespearean feel to it. I didn't expect everyone to get it, but I would have thought the target would have, unless I've overestimated them. :)

@tsherbs, thanks for putting yourself in the firing line. You have mostly nailed what I rail against in this forum. It could be much better than it is, and this is not something that I alone can have much effect on. It requires the efforts of all.


There is ass-kissing, back-channel commentary, and the public acknowledgement processes of "thanks" and "reputation" to reinforce some of the group identities around here.

Even the most superficial scan of posts from this thread and others highlights just how spot-on the emphasised part is.

I'm going to quote myself here, feeling daring you see.



What I want is for this place to be a venue where people are welcomed from all walks and backgrounds and skills and quirks. Where people are encouraged to learn and perhaps try new things. And not be beholden to a small group of older members whose outlook is mostly a product of the last century.

What gives me joy here is seeing people step out into new territory, exploring new things. What gives me pause is the lacklustre engagement from the long in tooth.

It appears from various responses that as laudable as these goals are, they are most definitely not shared by the cabal.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I'm going to paraphrase two statements that I seem to keep reading in all of this...

"You all are just old and set in your ways and hate any idea that's different from your own"

"If you don't unconditionally accept my opinions even if they're different from everyone else's it has to be because you don't like me"

So, fundamentally it's okay to throw around insults at everyone who you disagree with, but if you make a statement that someone challenges, it's personal and it's because they dislike you.

What a mess, and as I see it it's entirely of one person's making at least now.


Paraphrased AND added your own spin. How bold.

[Lloyd]

I've never seen someone explicitly self-laud before.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Oh, I reflected on my part.

This would be more convincing if it were not followed by several sentences ascribing the problem to others, including the insults about "lacklustre engagement" from members who are "long in the tooth", "whose outlook is mostly a product of the last century".

Instead, you could begin with an apology to christof, who is clearly an innocent in all this.


What would be more acceptable is if you took my writings as my genuine opinions (which is what they are) instead of picking apart statements in an effort to ascribe motive or intent that simply isn't there. Do you think you could try that for while? The result may surprise you.

And what would an apology to christof achieve exactly? Precisely nothing.


Apologies or acts of contrition fall wasted by the side of the path.

A public execution does not drown out the baying for blood.

[Lloyd]

EoC- I'm 58. Every time you knock the older members, I feel that you're insulting me, too. You may not be doing this intentionally, but please intentionally stop doing this age-bashing.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[bunnspecial]

What would be more acceptable is if you took my writings as my genuine opinions (which is what they are) instead of picking apart statements in an effort to ascribe motive or intent that simply isn't there. Do you think you could try that for while? The result may surprise you.
.

And there you go again with this hypocritical double standard.

It's okay for you to attempt to assign other motives to what people post here, but you expect what you say to only be taken at its word.

I know that my 34-year old self is just one of the old codgers you detest, though.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Same here, almost. I've used a blanket expression because I assumed that the people I was referring to are considerably older than me. Their attitudes would certainly suggest it.

Sorry, Lloyd, it was me being lazy with my words. No intention to insult you. (go ahead dneal, gainsay me on this one!)

[Empty_of_Clouds]

What would be more acceptable is if you took my writings as my genuine opinions (which is what they are) instead of picking apart statements in an effort to ascribe motive or intent that simply isn't there. Do you think you could try that for while? The result may surprise you.
.

And there you go again with this hypocritical double standard.

It's okay for you to attempt to assign other motives to what people post here, but you expect what you say to only be taken at its word.

I know that my 34-year old self is just one of the old codgers you detest, though.

Why are you still engaging here?

Is this a true reflection of your character?

Or is it because you have no willingness to try and improve the situation?

[bunnspecial]

What would be more acceptable is if you took my writings as my genuine opinions (which is what they are) instead of picking apart statements in an effort to ascribe motive or intent that simply isn't there. Do you think you could try that for while? The result may surprise you.
.

And there you go again with this hypocritical double standard.

It's okay for you to attempt to assign other motives to what people post here, but you expect what you say to only be taken at its word.

I know that my 34-year old self is just one of the old codgers you detest, though.

Why are you still engaging here?

Is this a true reflection of your character?

Or is it because you have no willingness to try and improve the situation?

Sorry that pointing out MY observations and stating my OPINIONS bothers you so much.

Remember, too, you are whining all the time about people criticizing your opinion. Rather rich of you to criticize mine. Once again, a double standard.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. What is interesting though is your repeated protestations about what I allegedly do when you are indulging in the same. The double standard is yours. How about you practice what you preach?

FYI there is a world of difference between criticising an opinion and dismissing it as invalid. My complaint is against the latter. My experiences, in particular, were held to be invalid. That is the same as people telling me that I am lying. It is unacceptable. No doubt you feel differently but that's likely due to inherent lack of fairness, in my opinion natch.

[bunnspecial]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. What is interesting though is your repeated protestations about what I allegedly do when you are indulging in the same. The double standard is yours. How about you practice what you preach?

FYI there is a world of difference between criticising an opinion and dismissing it as invalid. My complaint is against the latter. My experiences, in particular, were held to be invalid. That is the same as people telling me that I am lying. It is unacceptable. No doubt you feel differently but that's likely due to inherent lack of fairness, in my opinion natch.

There is likely no end to this discussion, but I do not recall ever doing any more than asking you for concrete examples when you voiced an opinion that contradicted my experience. You were not forthcoming with anything other than vague statements rather than specifics, so yes I did not consider opinions you expressed in some specific discussions where I'd previously interacted with you to be valid. That is certainly my right when discussing people with whom I've had dealings when both it is a direct contradiction to my personal experience and when the only backing you are willing to provide is an adamant "That's what I think about it so that's how it is". I recall discussing one particular pen maker where you initially wouldn't even confirm whether or not you'd spoken with a specific maker that, IIRC, you were dismissing as not acting professionally.

There's a lot here and continuing to discuss it won't end anywhere good, but I see a lot of whining about "not being able to make connections." To be frank, when I've attempted to connect with people here(both on this site and in the broader world of pen collecting/using), my experience has been almost universally positive and the introductions are there for the asking. When one person consistently has bad experiences where others have good or excellent experiences, it's not hard to think that the problem is somewhere other than with the vendors or others in the hobby.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Until this thread, perhaps you are right about our individual conversations.

Regarding the vague statements - my purpose was not to out specific individuals with whom I had a poor experience, but to make it known that I have had poor experiences. In the conversation you refer to, yes I had a poor experience with that person. The point was that it stood out in contrast to the good experiences I had with other makers. I made that abundantly clear at the time.

Further, I don't have consistently bad experiences, there has been a mixture of good, bad and indifferent. However, the bad experiences are magnified by my personal situation.

As for connections, you really don't seem to get that there is no broader world of pens. This forum is all that I have access to. Do you not understand that? Do you not see then that this is why I have always been asking for introductions to pen people away from the forum but within email earshot? Good grief!

[dneal]

Your behaviour on this forum has been and is that of an obnoxious troll. You proved that was when called another member a 'viperous hag.'

Sounds like a bit from Shakespeare. Or perhaps Rabelais. I love that imaginative sort of insult, as opposed to "dick," "a-hole," "loser," etc.

https://emblazenedsojournings.blogspot.com/2005/07/shakespearian-insults-from-fluffy.html

There are a bunch of these, but this one is handy as it’s a one page .pdf.

Shakespeare Insult Generator (https://playingwithplays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/shakespeare-insult-generator.pdf)

[Lloyd]

Until this thread, perhaps you are right about our individual conversations.

Regarding the vague statements - my purpose was not to out specific individuals with whom I had a poor experience, but to make it known that I have had poor experiences. In the conversation you refer to, yes I had a poor experience with that person. The point was that it stood out in contrast to the good experiences I had with other makers. I made that abundantly clear at the time.

Further, I don't have consistently bad experiences, there has been a mixture of good, bad and indifferent. However, the bad experiences are magnified by my personal situation.

As for connections, you really don't seem to get that there is no broader world of pens. This forum is all that I have access to. Do you not understand that? Do you not see then that this is why I have always been asking for introductions to pen people away from the forum but within email earshot? Good grief!
I thought you were on reddit?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[dneal]

Same here, almost. I've used a blanket expression because I assumed that the people I was referring to are considerably older than me. Their attitudes would certainly suggest it.

Sorry, Lloyd, it was me being lazy with my words. No intention to insult you. (go ahead dneal, gainsay me on this one!)

If you paused your lashing out, and contemplated what I wrote (the post regarding the apology owed to christof), you would see that I’m still trying to help you.

You’re free to choose your path, but realize you’re in the same predicament now as when you arrived 8 years ago. No one but you can end that cycle. I suspect many here would be much more forgiving than you might believe, even if they remain wary and mindful of Fred’s succinct appraisal.

[Lloyd]

Really? Why? (I'm not sure if I should put a rolling eyes emoji here)

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Same here, almost. I've used a blanket expression because I assumed that the people I was referring to are considerably older than me. Their attitudes would certainly suggest it.

Sorry, Lloyd, it was me being lazy with my words. No intention to insult you. (go ahead dneal, gainsay me on this one!)

If you paused your lashing out, and contemplated what I wrote (the post regarding the apology owed to christof), you would see that I’m still trying to help you.

You’re free to choose your path, but realize you’re in the same predicament now as when you arrived 8 years ago. No one but you can end that cycle. I suspect many here would be much more forgiving than you might believe, even if they remain wary and mindful of Fred’s succinct appraisal.

I already apologised to christof backchannel, but mention it here to satisfy the need for public egg throwing. And no, I believe you are quite, quite incorrect about the supposed forgiving nature of the people I am referring to. Forgiveness is not in their creed. I have no reason or evidence to suspect that will ever change.

[Chrissy]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. What is interesting though is your repeated protestations about what I allegedly do when you are indulging in the same. The double standard is yours. How about you practice what you preach?

FYI there is a world of difference between criticising an opinion and dismissing it as invalid. My complaint is against the latter. My experiences, in particular, were held to be invalid. That is the same as people telling me that I am lying. It is unacceptable. No doubt you feel differently but that's likely due to inherent lack of fairness, in my opinion natch.

There is likely no end to this discussion, but I do not recall ever doing any more than asking you for concrete examples when you voiced an opinion that contradicted my experience. You were not forthcoming with anything other than vague statements rather than specifics, so yes I did not consider opinions you expressed in some specific discussions where I'd previously interacted with you to be valid. That is certainly my right when discussing people with whom I've had dealings when both it is a direct contradiction to my personal experience and when the only backing you are willing to provide is an adamant "That's what I think about it so that's how it is". I recall discussing one particular pen maker where you initially wouldn't even confirm whether or not you'd spoken with a specific maker that, IIRC, you were dismissing as not acting professionally.

There's a lot here and continuing to discuss it won't end anywhere good, but I see a lot of whining about "not being able to make connections." To be frank, when I've attempted to connect with people here(both on this site and in the broader world of pen collecting/using), my experience has been almost universally positive and the introductions are there for the asking. When one person consistently has bad experiences where others have good or excellent experiences, it's not hard to think that the problem is somewhere other than with the vendors or others in the hobby.
@bunnspecial you're right when you say there is no end to this discussion.

It has been a much longer discussion than you think. Over the past 8 years many of the members on here, including myself, have tried to offer helpful suggestions. There was a proposed 1st pen show visit in San Francisco where we all pitched in with ideas then that visit failed to go ahead. Even free tickets were offered but that offer was rejected. There have been many ideas put forward for specific pens and pen makers that were ultimately rejected or even worse, employed to make a specific pen that turned into the pen from hell when received. David is a very hard man to please and that is by no means a bad thing. I'm very hard to please too! But there comes a time when it's clear that members have run out of ideas and patience.

Added onto all this is the fact that whenever it takes his fancy David is so frustrated that he becomes an aggressor and a name-caller and just lashes out at certain individuals that he suddenly takes a dislike to despite having interacted with them on a reasonably polite basis for years.

In the quote above that you included he mentions double standards - he also shows those. He criticises other members' opinions and dismisses them as invalid, yet complains about that when it happens to him. He says he thinks it's the same as members telling him he's lying and says that is unacceptable. Yet he has also calls members' liars. He has recently called me a liar on several occasions but he somehow doesn't expect it to be unacceptable when he does it. I would call that a double standard.

Regardless of what names he calls me, the latest one being totally unacceptable, I've never called him names and I've never aggressively insulted him like he has many times aggressively insulted me.
Basically he doesn't practice what he preaches and is happy to do unto others what he complains about is being done to him even when it actually isn't.

He whines that he doesn't have any friends who "like" his photos. How can he expect to have friends who like his photos when he treats everyone so badly that they have all added him to their Ignore lists?

It's not even that there is really "a clique" that he doesn't belong to. There are always going to be members who are quite friendly with each other for various reasons. They may be penpals, they may have similar specific interests and repeatedly concentrate within the same fora, for example: there is a group of members who like to draw images in the 2 Inktober fora and they do all tend to encourage each other by thanking each other for trying, and posting there. Nothing is wrong with that. It's normal. Then when those same members from those fora post images/posts elsewhere they are likely to be thanked by the same members for those images/posts too. That's normal too. It's not an exclusion zone around him it's more that he excludes himself by his own actions. I've seen him start many threads over the years. I've responded along with many other members. Do you know what? He very, very, rarely thanks any of those responders for their assistance. What does that say about him? He wants all of the take but no give?

You only have to look at his avatar image to see how many times he has given Thanks to others compared with how many times he has been Thanked:

70739

Double standards again? If David isn't thanked for the photos/threads he posts then that's solely down to his own actions. It's so much easier for him to blame everyone else.

While I'm here rambling on I may as well additionally address the comment made by TSherbs as a continuance to members "thanking" posts/images and that is the leaving of Community Reputation comments by this alleged "clique."

I can confirm that not one member on here has left me any positive Community Reputation this year and we are exactly half way through it. The only reputation left for me at all this year was the negative reputation comment left by David when he accused me of holding grudges. Another thing he does himself.

Sorry about the lack of smilies. It just took me too long to post all of this. :) :)

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Wow! There are so many untruths and blatant distortions in that steaming pile it's hard to know where to start, or even if it's worth bothering.

There most definitely is a clique and it has nothing to do with shared pen interests and everything to do with exerting some weird kind of control here (i.e. bullying). I have it on good authority that there was backchannel plotting to try to get at me, and that you (chrissy) were one of the more vocal participants.


Regarding the liking of images. There have been members who have encouraged me and liked my images. That they don't do so anymore has nothing to do with the images, some of which were repeat postings, but everything to do with who was posting them. It's clear to observe and not really defensible. Again, the thanks system only affords me information on whether the images have some merit or not.


Do you know what? He very, very, rarely thanks any of those responders for their assistance. What does that say about him? He wants all of the take but no give?

I usually do thank people for their assistance, when I remember to (I'm somewhat absent-minded about this though). You call it whatever makes you happy, because the truth isn't really what you're looking for here. EDIT: I give one thanks for every 4.46 posts. Does that qualify as "very, very rarely"? Looks like the predictable hyperbole is being employed yet again.


Me all take and no give? You have to be bloody joking! I've given away more stuff on here than just about anyone else. And I'm talking tangibles not just information. What is noticeable, if I'm feeling uncharitable, is just how tight-fisted some of the more resourced people on here are. There is an old saying that the poor give more than the rich, and that is very much borne out on this site.


As an afternote, you use my first name as if there is some familiarity between us. There is none.

You - that's the other members - have the opportunity to make this place more inclusive, welcoming, and nicer. Yet you choose not to and prefer to insist that all the ills be placed on my shoulders alone. Perhaps it is time for you lot to step up and make a sincere effort for a change?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

There is a very real opportunity here for members to put aside differences and try to work together to make a better environment. Me not being here doesn't have any noticeable effect in this regard. And that's an observable fact.

However, while I am willing to make that effort I am not going to do so alone, because that does not lead to lasting change. The challenge is for other members to step up too. I appreciate that there will be some who will harrumph at the suggestion, and that's okay, those are the people who couldn't be relied upon anyway. There is easily enough of us to make it work though.

The suggestion is there. It's up to you what you do with it. Do you want change for the better, or not?

[RobJohnson]

There is a very real opportunity here for members to put aside differences and try to work together to make a better environment. Me not being here doesn't have any noticeable effect in this regard. And that's an observable fact.

However, while I am willing to make that effort I am not going to do so alone, because that does not lead to lasting change. The challenge is for other members to step up too. I appreciate that there will be some who will harrumph at the suggestion, and that's okay, those are the people who couldn't be relied upon anyway. There is easily enough of us to make it work though.

The suggestion is there. It's up to you what you do with it. Do you want change for the better, or not?


The first paragraph is wrong.

During your latest disappearance there was no name calling, no malicious content, no aggravation. There was more harmony and a better feel to the place all round.

However, you have made an offer, for the sake of a better place I will be gone for good if you will do the same.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I'm not interested in manipulative suggestions. Remember, I was watching while my AI took the reins for a while. What I saw was not encouraging for growth in the forum as a whole, and even without all this latest debacle the forum is suffering from a lack of dynamic content creation. Pack your bags and go if you must, that's your decision. Despite the degree of acrimony between us I am not in favour of you leaving, just as I wouldn't advocate for anyone being banned from a forum.

[RobJohnson]

Let us see if you are a man of your word.

The only way that this will be a better place is if you go.

Please, no BS, I will take you up on your offer of wanting a better place, if You go for good then so will I.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Sorry, I think you have misunderstood what I wrote. I haven't said anything about me leaving.

[RobJohnson]

You said 'me not being here doesnt have any noticeable effect....

Next paragraph

However I am going to make the effort but will not do so alone'

You are talking about not being here and then you talk about making the effort but will not do so alone.

I am saying, you will do be doing so alone.

Come on, empty, ths is your Thelma and Louise moment, want a better fpg, both of us leave. Take a big one for the team, it is the only way it will get better, do you really want this acrimony fr the rest of your fpg days?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

It's poor writing construction but not so bad that it should lead to such a misunderstanding I think. Nevertheless it should be read as:


There is a very real opportunity here for members to put aside differences and try to work together to make a better environment. However, while I am willing to make that effort I am not going to do so alone, because that does not lead to lasting change.

This part below was an aside to suggest that leaving is a solution that doesn't appear to work.


Me not being here doesn't have any noticeable effect in this regard. And that's an observable fact.

I hope that clears up any confusion.


Edit: it's essentially a clarion call for members to work together to achieve a nicer environment. I appreciate that some people can only entertain a single solution at a time though.

[RobJohnson]

You have switched the order deliberately.

As you say, make a change.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Switched the order for clarity. It now aligns with what I intended it to say. No need to be so accusatory.

[TSherbs]

The only way that this will be a better place is if you go.


Wow, I couldn't disagree more. The *only* way?? Use some more creative and healing imagination.

Even EoC is wrong when his laments take on a predictive tone and suggest that there will be no more "growth" around here. Not all marriages, for example, end at their nadir. Not all sibling relationships do either. It's not automatic, nor is it automatically irreversible.

[RobJohnson]

The only way that this will be a better place is if you go.


Wow, I couldn't disagree more. The *only* way?? Use some more creative and healing imagination.

Even EoC is wrong when his laments take on a predictive tone and suggest that there will be no more "growth" around here. Not all marriages, for example, end at their nadir. Not all sibling relationships do either. It's not automatic, nor is it automatically irreversible.

I am sure that you are correct, I have no imagination.

Let us hope for peace and calm in the future

Thinking about the first post in this thread and an alledged apology to the OP I am reminded of when my children were young and what an apology or being sorry actually meant, it carried a responsibility to at least try not to repeat the issue in order that there would not be a need to repeat the apology.

As others have said however, this has been going on for years and we have no naughty step.


Eta, done here, this has become tiresome and time consuming for no benefit.

[Chrissy]

There is a very real opportunity here for members to put aside differences and try to work together to make a better environment. Me not being here doesn't have any noticeable effect in this regard. And that's an observable fact.

However, while I am willing to make that effort I am not going to do so alone, because that does not lead to lasting change. The challenge is for other members to step up too. I appreciate that there will be some who will harrumph at the suggestion, and that's okay, those are the people who couldn't be relied upon anyway. There is easily enough of us to make it work though.

The suggestion is there. It's up to you what you do with it. Do you want change for the better, or not?


The first paragraph is wrong.

During your latest disappearance there was no name calling, no malicious content, no aggravation. There was more harmony and a better feel to the place all round.

However, you have made an offer, for the sake of a better place I will be gone for good if you will do the same.
Let's stick with 100% honesty, lest we forget, on this thread on May 12th Empty_of_Clouds posted:

"I sent a message to Christof with a simple direct and sincere question. If he/she honestly thought FPG would be nicer if I didn't take part then I would accept that decision and go.

Christof, for his/her part has declined to make this decision, and doesn't want to judge... so in that case I will go."

In reply TSherbs posted: "Rest and recharge. Peace, brother."

On that same day christof then posted: "I'm not proud of how that turned out…"

Because Empty_of_Clouds then deleted many of his posts prior to leaving, that part of this thread became fractured.

Just getting the facts straight.

[An old bloke]

Here's a thought. How about everybody just quit responding to this thread and let the ranter carry on with his impassioned cries, to hear only his voice in return in what would effectively an empty.room?

[TSherbs]

...This forum is all that I have access to. Do you not understand that? Do you not see then that this is why I have always been asking for introductions to pen people away from the forum but within email earshot? Good grief!

Whatever came of your interest in aquiring a Pelikan M800? Did that ever happen?

[TSherbs]

The only way that this will be a better place is if you go.


Wow, I couldn't disagree more. The *only* way?? Use some more creative and healing imagination.

Even EoC is wrong when his laments take on a predictive tone and suggest that there will be no more "growth" around here. Not all marriages, for example, end at their nadir. Not all sibling relationships do either. It's not automatic, nor is it automatically irreversible.

I am sure that you are correct, I have no imagination. Well, that is not what I said.


Let us hope for peace and calm in the future Yes, for all creatures and living beings. Shanti shanti shanti.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

snip.

An out of context statement plus a poor effort at understanding three simple sentences tends to lead to a distortion of any truth.

I guess chrissy wants to be on the ledger as one of those who doesn't want a welcoming and inclusive environment. Same goes for an old bloke apparently. What a shame.


A solution has been suggested, and I have already started on my side of the deal. Your response to this is directly associated with your moral character. You are challenged to be better.



One good place to start would be to ask yourself if you have really understood what another member has written, or if you are making an interpretation to satisfy your preconceived bias.

[Lloyd]

snip.

An out of context statement plus a poor effort at understanding three simple sentences tends to lead to a distortion of any truth.

I guess chrissy wants to be on the ledger as one of those who doesn't want a welcoming and inclusive environment. Same goes for an old bloke apparently. What a shame.


A solution has been suggested, and I have already started on my side of the deal. Your response to this is directly associated with your moral character. You are challenged to be better.



One good place to start would be to ask yourself if you have really understood what another member has written, or if you are making an interpretation to satisfy your preconceived bias.
EoC- We all should do this. Misinterpretations still will occur. That's why we should try and think what else the individual could have meant.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

EoC- We all should do this. Misinterpretations still will occur. That's why we should try and think what else the individual could have meant.

Indeed. Taking a moment is all that is required.

Consider the example in this end of the thread. I made a suggestion followed by an assertion of intent about that suggestion. In between I provided an example of an alternate solution that hadn't worked (hence the need for the new suggestion). It was a simple construction. If I wanted to be uncharitable I would suggest that some people need remedial lessons in parsing their own language. However, I tend to believe that the misreading is more due to desire to to see what one wants to see. Thus my corollary about taking a moment.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Some comments from Reddit on pen forums.


FPGeeks is dead since the breakup of the owners and never caught on, and Reddit is the best of them all with welcoming warm-hearted individuals who don’t have a stick where it doesn’t belong or a bunch of sterile old men who are miserable.


FPN is terrible, does not allow negative feedback against those who advertise there. It's a moneymaking operation for the owner, not a forum for users.

Pentrace is chill, never more than a few posts a day by old heads.

FPGeeks is a little more traffic, but not much substance to my eyes.

This sub is a great mix of enthusiastic users & knowledgeable super-users, all in a super-kind environment.


I've browsed through a few of them [pen forums, EoC] but none of them had the - how do I say - "feel" of this subreddit. This place is super friendly and is all I need. Plus I get to go around Reddit and look at animals and people doing silly things at the same time.



I use FPN when I need information or specific help. There are some very knowledgeable people on there that have helped me out over the years. I don’t feel the same warmth and welcomeness as I do on here though, so that results in me coming over here way more often


If you need specific information about vintage pens FPN is where to go.


I had an FPN account way before I had my first reddit account. I didn't feel at ease over there, it seemed like an old boys club in every sense of the word. There was also some insular/parochial attitudes. It feels weird when a user you recognize for their interesting content suddenly makes some off-handed offensive comments. Of course, this also happens on Reddit, but Reddit feels more anonymous/less clique-y and since this subreddit's users are much more open-minded/progressive, it feels more welcoming.

[Lloyd]

Some comments from Reddit on pen forums.




FPN is terrible, does not allow negative feedback against those who advertise there. It's a moneymaking operation for the owner, not a forum for users.

Pentrace is chill, never more than a few posts a day by old heads.

FPGeeks is a little more traffic, but not much substance to my eyes.

This sub is a great mix of enthusiastic users & knowledgeable super-users, all in a super-kind environment.


I've browsed through a few of them [pen forums, EoC] but none of them had the - how do I say - "feel" of this subreddit. This place is super friendly and is all I need. Plus I get to go around Reddit and look at animals and people doing silly things at the same time.



I use FPN when I need information or specific help. There are some very knowledgeable people on there that have helped me out over the years. I don’t feel the same warmth and welcomeness as I do on here though, so that results in me coming over here way more often


If you need specific information about vintage pens FPN is where to go.


I had an FPN account way before I had my first reddit account. I didn't feel at ease over there, it seemed like an old boys club in every sense of the word. There was also some insular/parochial attitudes. It feels weird when a user you recognize for their interesting content suddenly makes some off-handed offensive comments. Of course, this also happens on Reddit, but Reddit feels more anonymous/less clique-y and since this subreddit's users are much more open-minded/progressive, it feels more welcoming.
Then why do you stay on REDDIT, EoC? By the way, the FPN FB page isn't too bad. There's some amazingly talented artists there.

In my prior line (which you quoted), I meant that we should be no less concerned with how others perceive us as how we perceive others. We all should good others the benefit of the doubt - few, if any, are really as "evil" as we believe. Also, we all have bad days. We shouldn't be judged exclusively based on our worst nor on our best behaviors.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

When I would look for used pens, I poured over reddit. Many options. Good search functionality. I have sold there, too.

[Lloyd]

When I would look for used pens, I poured over reddit. Many options. Good search functionality. I have sold there, too.
How many posts do you need there prior to selling? I've only briefly gone there and posted.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

100 Karma points (you earn them in more than one way, not just posting).

I actually wrote admin because I had fewer than 100 but had been a member for some years. They granted me a waiver, which I appreciated.

[Lloyd]

Karma points? Does stepping on a bug cause a deduction?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

Karma points? Does stepping on a bug cause a deduction?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

no, but people can vote your post karma down with "down votes", so in a sense, you can't even irritate the bugs, or it will cost you

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Lloyd, do you mean why don't I stay on Reddit? I do, but I also like to have options. The quotes from other Redditors gives some idea of how websites like this one are seen. They suggest, as an aggregate, that the main forums are somewhat static. What really stands out for me though are the comments about friendliness.

As for giving people the benefit of the doubt, I totally agree, but it's not me that needs convincing of this. In general my outbursts are fierce but short-lived. When they subside I can put aside what has happened or what has been said as being in the heat of the moment. It is rare that I carry enmity for anyone over a long time. Harbouring negative feelings about things is draining. Let them out and let them go is my usual strategy for dealing with those stressors.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

...This forum is all that I have access to. Do you not understand that? Do you not see then that this is why I have always been asking for introductions to pen people away from the forum but within email earshot? Good grief!

Whatever came of your interest in aquiring a Pelikan M800? Did that ever happen?

Sorry, missed this. No, I have yet to acquire a luxury pen of any kind. Mostly it's because I lost confidence in what people were saying, that and a great deal of conflicting information. Also, my motives for wanting one are not entirely clear to me - they will certainly be impenetrable to anyone else.

[TSherbs]

...This forum is all that I have access to. Do you not understand that? Do you not see then that this is why I have always been asking for introductions to pen people away from the forum but within email earshot? Good grief!

Whatever came of your interest in aquiring a Pelikan M800? Did that ever happen?

Sorry, missed this. No, I have yet to acquire a luxury pen of any kind. Mostly it's because I lost confidence in what people were saying, that and a great deal of conflicting information. Also, my motives for wanting one are not entirely clear to me - they will certainly be impenetrable to anyone else.

roger that

sounds reasonable to go on purchasing pause

sit, and wait for clarity (maybe!)

[Lloyd]

Lloyd, do you mean why don't I stay on Reddit? I do, but I also like to have options. The quotes from other Redditors gives some idea of how websites like this one are seen. They suggest, as an aggregate, that the main forums are somewhat static. What really stands out for me though are the comments about friendliness.

As for giving people the benefit of the doubt, I totally agree, but it's not me that needs convincing of this. In general my outbursts are fierce but short-lived. When they subside I can put aside what has happened or what has been said as being in the heat of the moment. It is rare that I carry enmity for anyone over a long time. Harbouring negative feelings about things is draining. Let them out and let them go is my usual strategy for dealing with those stressors.

Your first paragraph- Don't many members of every forum (social group) comment negatively on their "rivals"?
Your second paragraph- At least from my perspective, which is likely to be incorrect, you seem to be over estimating your relinquishing of your perceptions of your past interactions. I don't mean to insult you in any way. Regardless of everything that has happened (our memories are distorted), you seem to still be full of animosity and paranoia towards many members. You seem to move quickly from pleasant to argumentative. Whether or not you've had bad interactions, you should strive to rise above them for the good of both the forum and, most importantly, yourself.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

First para, only if groups see themselves as rivals. That is not the feeling I get on Reddit, which seems to be happy with itself. However, if you look at FPN and FPG then yes, there is a bit of mudslinging between the two. Reddit is better in this regard.

2nd para, perhaps. I have already made a start on cleaning things up. Keep an eye on what the naysayers do though.


I am not insulted when people make considered statements. And vice versa.

[dneal]

EoC, a suggestion - focus on your walk on the noble path. The rest will work itself out.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Thanks for the reminder. It's what I am trying to do, even with all my imperfections.

[Lloyd]

Thanks for the reminder. It's what I am trying to do, even with all my imperfections.
We're all imperfect, no better nor worse than anyone else.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Unprovoked? I would agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

Actually I edited that post because it was wrong for me to continue in that vein. Your welcome. How about a little effort to at least place a foot on the path to reconciliation, or do you want to rake over the coals some more?

[Lloyd]

Chrissy-I don't know what transpired between you and EoC. I know we all distort our memories, often to paint ourselves better and the others worse. Often we do this to lessen the pain of a past bad experience. Regardless of what happened, EoC has recognized that he needs to leave it behind. Recognize that my past memory distortion statement applies to both you and EoC (and everyone else). For whatever reason, true or false, EoC feels (felt) horribly treated by several here that include you. I also know that people who are suffering (which we all are to some extent) are likely to feel these negative past memories amplified. Regardless, do her called you names. If you feel you didn't earn them in your memory, prove him wrong by acting as honestly and supportively as you can... or just ignore him. You don't have to engage at all. If you earned them in your memory, turn over a new leaf. Either way, show support. How would you act if a loved one had such an outburst? What if it were an elderly parent or your own child?
EoC- If you're truly living in the present, you needn't mention "Your welcome". You could say "Thank You" to yourself for undertaking difficult but rewarding task of cutting the tight bonds to your past bad memories.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Baby steps.

[Lloyd]

Baby steps.
As long as they lead in your desired direction, be proud.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chrissy]

Chrissy-I don't know what transpired between you and EoC. I know we all distort our memories, often to paint ourselves better and the others worse. Often we do this to lessen the pain of a past bad experience. Regardless of what happened, EoC has recognized that he needs to leave it behind. Recognize that my past memory distortion statement applies to both you and EoC (and everyone else). For whatever reason, true or false, EoC feels (felt) horribly treated by several here that include you. I also know that people who are suffering (which we all are to some extent) are likely to feel these negative past memories amplified. Regardless, do her called you names. If you feel you didn't earn them in your memory, prove him wrong by acting as honestly and supportively as you can... or just ignore him. You don't have to engage at all. If you earned them in your memory, turn over a new leaf. Either way, show support. How would you act if a loved one had such an outburst? What if it were an elderly parent or your own child?
EoC- If you're truly living in the present, you needn't mention "Your welcome". You could say "Thank You" to yourself for undertaking difficult but rewarding task of cutting the tight bonds to your past bad memories.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
No you don't, nor do you know how many times. My memories have not been distorted and they can't be made any worse. You have been sucked in by Empty and the time will come when you realise you made an error of judgement. There are many of us here who have been similarly sucked in many times before and therefore know what the future holds. He has personally attacked me one time too many. He stated he would go. If he is not a liar then that's what needs to happen.

I have Empty on my Ignore list and that is exactly how I want it to stay. However, regardless of whoever I try to speak to or reply to on here Empty answers like I'm talking to him or am remotely interested in anything he has to say which I am not. What I want is for my Ignore List to be respected and I want Empty to consider me as uncontactable in any way, shape or form. I want my Ignore list to work both ways. Like I can't read anything he writes and he can't reply to anything I write. Bonds completely cut forever. I guarantee that he will respond to this reply because he simply hasn't got the self control to stop himself from doing so.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Oftentimes have I heard you speak of one who commits a wrong as though he were not one of you, but a stranger unto you and an intruder upon your world.

But I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you,

So the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.

And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, So the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all.

Like a procession you walk together towards your god-self.








Almustafa

[Lloyd]

Chrissy- I'm sorry that you feel so abused that you can't be sympathetic. Life is full of many challenges, some we can rise above and some we can't. As we know, one of our members, Andrew, has been engaged in a life that hopefully no one else on this forum will experience. All I know is that life is too short and delicate for us to hold animosity. If you truly can't accept his presence any longer, perhaps he can set your posts to IGNORE. I can't think of any beneficial justification for EoC to follow you if he truly wants to live a more peaceful life.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

And a youth said, Speak to us of Friendship.

And he answered, saying:
Your friend is your needs answered.
He is your field which you sow with love and reap with thanksgiving.
And he is your board and your fireside.
For you come to him with your hunger, and you seek him for peace.
When your friend speaks his mind you fear not the “nay” in your own mind, nor do you withhold the “ay.”
And when he is silent your heart ceases not to listen to his heart;
For without words, in friendship, all thoughts, all desires, all expectations are born and shared, with joy that is unacclaimed.
When you part from your friend, you grieve not;
For that which you love most in him may be clearer in his absence, as the mountain to the climber is clearer from the plain. And let there be no purpose in friendship save the deepening of the spirit.
For love that seeks aught but the disclosure of its own mystery is not love but a net cast forth: and only the unprofitable is caught.

And let your best be for your friend.
If he must know the ebb of your tide, let him know its flood also.
For what is your friend that you should seek him with hours to kill?
Seek him always with hours to live.
For it is his to fill your need, but not your emptiness.
And in the sweetness of friendship let there be laughter, and sharing of pleasures.
For in the dew of little things the heart finds its morning and is refreshed.

[Lloyd]

EoC - I'm not well versed in Gibran, but what I've read I've been touched by. As Chrissy has pointed out, you have had a difficult time overcoming your past thoughts. I'd strongly recommend settings those you currently feel disturbed by to IGNORE until you have proven to both yourself and to others here that you are ready for the challenge.... and it will be a challenge. Deeply ingrained negative memories are very tough to leave behind. However, the benefits are more than worth it.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I have had to experience so much stupidity, so many vices, so much error, so much nausea, disillusionment and sorrow, just in order to become a child again and begin anew. I had to experience despair, I had to sink to the greatest mental depths, to thoughts of suicide, in order to experience grace.

Hesse

[Lloyd]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chrissy]

Chrissy- I'm sorry that you feel so abused that you can't be sympathetic. Life is full of many challenges, some we can rise above and some we can't. As we know, one of our members, Andrew, has been engaged in a life that hopefully no one else on this forum will experience. All I know is that life is too short and delicate for us to hold animosity. If you truly can't accept his presence any longer, perhaps he can set your posts to IGNORE. I can't think of any beneficial justification for EoC to follow you if he truly wants to live a more peaceful life.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
I don't feel so abused that I can't be sympathetic. I have been abused and not just recently. Did you never read the Ignore function thread (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30708-Ignore-Function) the only one that survived the last clear out when Empty had one of his previous episodes? His quote then:

Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds
"Bigotry, prejudice, intolerance of others views, lack of patience, lack of empathy, closed-mindedness. These are common drivers behind those who use the Ignore function."

So he has no tolerance of those who even use the Ignore function. That's probably why he completely disrespects it. Did he reply to my previous post as I said he would? It looks like he did.
Je reste mon cas

[Empty_of_Clouds]

In my practice tradition - Mahayana - there are six virtues:


Dāna pāramitā: generosity, charity, giving
Śīla pāramitā: virtue, discipline, proper conduct
Kṣānti pāramitā: patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance
Vīrya pāramitā: energy, diligence, vigour, effort
Dhyāna pāramitā: one-pointed concentration, contemplation, meditation
Prajñā pāramitā: transcendent wisdom, spiritual knowledge


Of these I've only had some modest ability to apply numbers 1,4 and 5. The rest (but really all) are a work in practice which will occupy the short stretch of time I have left in this incarnation.


@chrissy, I will hold my hand out to you. If you wish to slap it away, that is your choice. I respect your choice even if it saddens me. My hand will remain outheld. I cannot, and would not, compel anyone to walk the path, but it is my duty (in my practice) to at least show the way.




EDIT: I never put people on my Ignore List. In my opinion everyone brings something of value, even if it is not easily seen.

[Lloyd]

Chrissy- I'm sorry that you feel so abused that you can't be sympathetic. Life is full of many challenges, some we can rise above and some we can't. As we know, one of our members, Andrew, has been engaged in a life that hopefully no one else on this forum will experience. All I know is that life is too short and delicate for us to hold animosity. If you truly can't accept his presence any longer, perhaps he can set your posts to IGNORE. I can't think of any beneficial justification for EoC to follow you if he truly wants to live a more peaceful life.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
I don't feel so abused that I can't be sympathetic. I have been abused and not just recently. Did you never read the Ignore function thread (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30708-Ignore-Function) the only one that survived the last clear out when Empty had one of his previous episodes? His quote then:

Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds
"Bigotry, prejudice, intolerance of others views, lack of patience, lack of empathy, closed-mindedness. These are common drivers behind those who use the Ignore function."

So he has no tolerance of those who even use the Ignore function. That's probably why he completely disrespects it. Did he reply to my previous post as I said he would? It looks like he did.
Je reste mon cas
This is why I strongly urged him to use the IGNORE button on those he can't accept. His past was not his present. You can assume the worst or you can be hopeful for him to recover. You mention that way back, he was offered a paid trip to California. He must have been seen as special at that time. Why not focus on that side of him and assist him in his return to that? I don't support a "3 strikes and your out" legal system for non-physical acts. I think we all have episodes of negativity and, with support, we can heal. What's the worst that happens, he flares up again? Will there be any physical trauma? Will it matter in the big picture? If you think this place is too fragile for his temperment, perhaps you should ask the owner to run it like FPN.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

You mention that way back, he was offered a paid trip to California.

Sorry, Lloyd, but it was only the entry fee to the show that was offered. I was grateful but also too embarrassed to accept - part of my English heritage I'm afraid. The trip was out of my own pocket.

[dneal]

In my practice tradition - Mahayana - there are six virtues:


Dāna pāramitā: generosity, charity, giving
Śīla pāramitā: virtue, discipline, proper conduct
Kṣānti pāramitā: patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance
Vīrya pāramitā: energy, diligence, vigour, effort
Dhyāna pāramitā: one-pointed concentration, contemplation, meditation
Prajñā pāramitā: transcendent wisdom, spiritual knowledge


Of these I've only had some modest ability to apply numbers 1,4 and 5. The rest (but really all) are a work in practice which will occupy the short stretch of time I have left in this incarnation.


@chrissy, I will hold my hand out to you. If you wish to slap it away, that is your choice. I respect your choice even if it saddens me. My hand will remain outheld. I cannot, and would not, compel anyone to walk the path, but it is my duty (in my practice) to at least show the way.




EDIT: I never put people on my Ignore List. In my opinion everyone brings something of value, even if it is not easily seen.

2 and 3 could perhaps be a beneficial area of focus.

You can "show the way" by example rather than instruction or demand.

[Lloyd]

You mention that way back, he was offered a paid trip to California.

Sorry, Lloyd, but it was only the entry fee to the show that was offered. I was grateful but also too embarrassed to accept - part of my English heritage I'm afraid. The trip was out of my own pocket.
Still, they saw you as having value. Clearly, that shows they knew of a positive flame in you. I don't know why someone couldn't imagine someone returning to and surpassing such a way. However, neither you nor I can expect others to quickly heal from the wounds your words have inflicted any more than they should expect similar from you. That's why I think you doing set them to IGNORE for a few months.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

@dneal - Indeed, 2 and 3 are some of the more difficult ones gain traction in.

Am I demanding or instructing here? I offer only my hand. I make the same offer to you. Unreservedly.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

@Lloyd, I know. However, I will not use the Ignore List. I don't hold with the idea of exclusion nor of denying anyone at least the opportunity to connect. I don't possess what we call 'skillful means' so I don't know if it is the right thing to do, but my heart says it is even if it proves painful to me.

[Lloyd]

Others might not be ready for acceptance yet. They should have peace. To achieve that, both you and they should use the IGNORE. There's no reason to jump into the deep end of the pool when you're relearning to swim.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Empty_of_Clouds]

There is no deep end. I have no expectations. I offer only possibility. It will be hard for anyone here to grasp or accept the ease with which I can take a breath and let all the recent unpleasantness just float away. It is done. I abide.

[Lloyd]

There is no deep end. I have no expectations. I offer only possibility. It will be hard for anyone here to grasp or accept the ease with which I can take a breath and let all the recent unpleasantness just float away. It is done. I abide.
You've tried before. I'm hopeful that you can succeed, but why should you expect others to feel this way? Why not give them a feeling of safety until you've proven long term what you're trying to achieve? Don't they deserve the sense of security?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[dneal]

Your predicament is beyond a simple apology or virtual handshake. Your view of others' wrongs falls on deaf ears. Many have adopted a "fool me once..." position, not unjustified.

I'm reminded of a couple of sayings. One about being given enough rope to hang yourself with, and another that if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

To mix metaphors, you're in a hole and I'll throw you a rope. You can tie it around your waist, or around your neck. Either way, I'm going to pull on that rope.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

There is no desire to prove myself. I present this vessel as it is. Isolation tends to lead to strengthening of walls, not an increased sense of inner safety, in my opinion. My decision remains because I think it is the right thing to do (within the limitations of my own understanding) and I cannot turn away from what I think is a right action. That may be affected if a living mentor worked through it with me, but as Lord Gautama advised his followers not to accept his words on blind faith, but to decide for themselves whether his teachings are right or wrong, then follow them. He encouraged everyone to have compassion for each other and develop their own virtue. I am bound by that (without a trace of irony!)

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Your predicament is beyond a simple apology or virtual handshake. Your view of others' wrongs falls on deaf ears. Many have adopted a "fool me once..." position, not unjustified.
I'm reminded of a couple of sayings. One about being given enough rope to hang yourself with, and another that if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
To mix metaphors, you're in a hole and I'll throw you a rope. You can tie it around your waist, or around your neck. Either way, I'm going to pull on that rope.


Not sure I really understand that.

However, I am back to following the path that has been illuminated for all sentient beings. There will be no further hurtful engagement from me. What other people make of this is their concern, but I will say that ultimately they may find themselves clinging to the past, and for that I will offer metta in as many sittings as I can.



Sorry about removing your line spacings, it's just that I find quoted posts can take up a lot of space, and no doubt I am very guilty of that myself.

[Chrissy]

Chrissy- I'm sorry that you feel so abused that you can't be sympathetic. Life is full of many challenges, some we can rise above and some we can't. As we know, one of our members, Andrew, has been engaged in a life that hopefully no one else on this forum will experience. All I know is that life is too short and delicate for us to hold animosity. If you truly can't accept his presence any longer, perhaps he can set your posts to IGNORE. I can't think of any beneficial justification for EoC to follow you if he truly wants to live a more peaceful life.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
I don't feel so abused that I can't be sympathetic. I have been abused and not just recently. Did you never read the Ignore function thread (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/30708-Ignore-Function) the only one that survived the last clear out when Empty had one of his previous episodes? His quote then:

Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds
"Bigotry, prejudice, intolerance of others views, lack of patience, lack of empathy, closed-mindedness. These are common drivers behind those who use the Ignore function."

So he has no tolerance of those who even use the Ignore function. That's probably why he completely disrespects it. Did he reply to my previous post as I said he would? It looks like he did.
Je reste mon cas
This is why I strongly urged him to use the IGNORE button on those he can't accept. His past was not his present. You can assume the worst or you can be hopeful for him to recover. You mention that way back, he was offered a paid trip to California. He must have been seen as special at that time. Why not focus on that side of him and assist him in his return to that? I don't support a "3 strikes and your out" legal system for non-physical acts. I think we all have episodes of negativity and, with support, we can heal. What's the worst that happens, he flares up again? Will there be any physical trauma? Will it matter in the big picture? If you think this place is too fragile for his temperment, perhaps you should ask the owner to run it like FPN.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
He was offered free entry to the San Francisco Pen Show. Advised that tickets would be waiting for him at the entry table. He didn't accept because he wanted to ensure no-one knew it was him. :( After a long and drawn out thread about why he wanted to go to the SF Pen Show and everyone offering advice or assistance he said he wasn't going to attend. In alternative speak he got all of the attention he wanted out of the thread then jumped ship. :(

I do support a "3 strikes and you're out" legal system for non physical acts. It has been established in this century that Internet trolling and bullying and Personal Attacks are not acceptable and do not need to be tolerated. I can never find what he has called me acceptable. I have obviously tried to make contact with Eric. That's all I will say in public on that particular subject.

[dneal]

There is no desire to prove myself.

Completely up to you.

I suspect I'm not the only one willing to pull on the metaphorical rope.

More contemplation and less rebuttal might prove beneficial.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

"And how shall you punish those whose remorse is already greater than their misdeeds?

Is not remorse the justice which is administered by that very law which you would fain serve?

Yet you cannot lay remorse upon the innocent nor lift it from the heart of the guilty.

Unbidden shall it call in the night, that men may wake and gaze upon themselves. And you who would understand justice, how shall you unless you look upon all deeds in the fullness of light?

Only then shall you know that the erect and the fallen are but one man standing in twilight between the night of his pigmy-self and the day of his god-self, And that the corner-stone of the temple is not higher than the lowest stone in its foundation."

[dneal]

"And how shall you punish those whose remorse is already greater than their misdeeds?

And the crowd cried "Lo!, how shall we deal with this one who claims remorse? How are we to be sure of its presence or sincerity?"

And the judge said "You will not know from the claims alone, for claims are often perfidious. You will come to know the sincerity through the consistency of the actions."

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Then allow me opportunity to demonstrate those actions.

[TSherbs]

EoC, those quoted passages are beautiful. I have read them now several times.

Peace, brother.

[724Seney]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

@Lloyd. Since this thread seems to have migrated in the direction of a quotefest I am happy to offer one to the group.
The quote is commonly attributed to Albert Einstein, however many scholars insist that attributing it to Einstein is incorrect.

Regardless, I think it is well applied to this unending idiots' delight.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Think about it..............

[catbert]

EoC, those quoted passages are beautiful. I have read them now several times.

Peace, brother.

Indeed. Absolutely.

And yet, @EoC: I would rather hear from you in your own voice than the most beautiful quotes or creative personas.


... Remember, I was watching while my AI took the reins for a while. What I saw was not encouraging for growth in the forum as a whole, and even without all this latest debacle the forum is suffering from a lack of dynamic content creation. ...

Retaining elements of a bit makes everything feel like a bit, or 'dynamic content creation', or whatever. Just saying.

[Lloyd]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

@Lloyd. Since this thread seems to have migrated in the direction of a quotefest I am happy to offer one to the group.
The quote is commonly attributed to Albert Einstein, however many scholars insist that attributing it to Einstein is incorrect.

Regardless, I think it is well applied to this unending idiots' delight.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Think about it..............
Did you tell your kid to stop trying to ride a bicycle after they fell off a few times? What advice should have been given to these writers - https://lithub.com/the-most-rejected-books-of-all-time/ ?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[724Seney]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

@Lloyd. Since this thread seems to have migrated in the direction of a quotefest I am happy to offer one to the group.
The quote is commonly attributed to Albert Einstein, however many scholars insist that attributing it to Einstein is incorrect.

Regardless, I think it is well applied to this unending idiots' delight.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Think about it..............
Did you tell your kid to stop trying to ride a bicycle after they fell off a few times? What advice should have been given to these writers - https://lithub.com/the-most-rejected-books-of-all-time/ ?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

The operative word is "a few times."

You are flogging a dead dog.

[Lloyd]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

@Lloyd. Since this thread seems to have migrated in the direction of a quotefest I am happy to offer one to the group.
The quote is commonly attributed to Albert Einstein, however many scholars insist that attributing it to Einstein is incorrect.

Regardless, I think it is well applied to this unending idiots' delight.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Think about it..............
Did you tell your kid to stop trying to ride a bicycle after they fell off a few times? What advice should have been given to these writers - https://lithub.com/the-most-rejected-books-of-all-time/ ?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

The operative word is "a few times."

You are flogging a dead dog.
At least it gets me exercise.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[dneal]

At least it gets me exercise.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

If it's exercise you want, Chuck is waiting by the door of the politics forum. It's somebody else's turn to take him for a walk...

[724Seney]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

@Lloyd. Since this thread seems to have migrated in the direction of a quotefest I am happy to offer one to the group.
The quote is commonly attributed to Albert Einstein, however many scholars insist that attributing it to Einstein is incorrect.

Regardless, I think it is well applied to this unending idiots' delight.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Think about it..............
Did you tell your kid to stop trying to ride a bicycle after they fell off a few times? What advice should have been given to these writers - https://lithub.com/the-most-rejected-books-of-all-time/ ?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

The operative word is "a few times."

You are flogging a dead dog.
At least it gets me exercise.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

I suppose futile exercise is better than no exercise at all.

[An old bloke]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

@Lloyd. Since this thread seems to have migrated in the direction of a quotefest I am happy to offer one to the group.
The quote is commonly attributed to Albert Einstein, however many scholars insist that attributing it to Einstein is incorrect.

Regardless, I think it is well applied to this unending idiots' delight.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Think about it..............
Did you tell your kid to stop trying to ride a bicycle after they fell off a few times? What advice should have been given to these writers - https://lithub.com/the-most-rejected-books-of-all-time/ ?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

The operative word is "a few times."

You are flogging a dead dog.
At least it gets me exercise.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

But alas, it is very painful for those who are forced to witness it.

Please, for the sake of sanity -- LET IT GO!

This entire thread has become boring and painful to endure. I have suggested ending this discussion by NOT responding to the constant 'sh*t stirring' tirades of one individual in particular, but apparently some here find that impossible to do. PLEASE, LET IT GO!

The option is continuing and with that, turning off people who want to discuss pens and their use in peace, and having no one contributing here but EoC, you, Lloyd, and a handful of others who cannot recognise futility when it figuratively rises up and smacks them in the face.

[dneal]

But alas, it is very painful for those who are forced to witness it.

You're not forced to witness anything. You clearly know what's inside this thread. Maybe stop peeking? and go visit the peaceful pen threads (or even begin one)?

[Lloyd]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

@Lloyd. Since this thread seems to have migrated in the direction of a quotefest I am happy to offer one to the group.
The quote is commonly attributed to Albert Einstein, however many scholars insist that attributing it to Einstein is incorrect.

Regardless, I think it is well applied to this unending idiots' delight.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Think about it..............
Did you tell your kid to stop trying to ride a bicycle after they fell off a few times? What advice should have been given to these writers - https://lithub.com/the-most-rejected-books-of-all-time/ ?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

The operative word is "a few times."

You are flogging a dead dog.
At least it gets me exercise.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

But alas, it is very painful for those who are forced to witness it.

Please, for the sake of sanity -- LET IT GO!

This entire thread has become boring and painful to endure. I have suggested ending this discussion by NOT responding to the constant 'sh*t stirring' tirades of one individual in particular, but apparently some here find that impossible to do. PLEASE, LET IT GO!

The option is continuing and with that, turning off people who want to discuss pens and their use in peace, and having no one contributing here but EoC, you, Lloyd, and a handful of others who cannot recognise futility when it figuratively rises up and smacks them in the face.
Why stare at what you consider a car accident when you can drive on by?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Lloyd]

At least it gets me exercise.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

If it's exercise you want, Chuck is waiting by the door of the politics forum. It's somebody else's turn to take him for a walk...
We all have our breaking points. Myself included.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[An old bloke]

EoC - You're a very talented individual. I've told you before of my strongly positive impressions of you. You me to focus this on positivity. Don't focus on recognition nor applause. Focus on selfless generosity and positivity. Don't replicate behaviors you see as "bad" - that never helped a situation. There are more people willing to help you than you think of you're willing to work at benevolence.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

@Lloyd. Since this thread seems to have migrated in the direction of a quotefest I am happy to offer one to the group.
The quote is commonly attributed to Albert Einstein, however many scholars insist that attributing it to Einstein is incorrect.

Regardless, I think it is well applied to this unending idiots' delight.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Think about it..............
Did you tell your kid to stop trying to ride a bicycle after they fell off a few times? What advice should have been given to these writers - https://lithub.com/the-most-rejected-books-of-all-time/ ?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

The operative word is "a few times."

You are flogging a dead dog.
At least it gets me exercise.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

But alas, it is very painful for those who are forced to witness it.

Please, for the sake of sanity -- LET IT GO!

This entire thread has become boring and painful to endure. I have suggested ending this discussion by NOT responding to the constant 'sh*t stirring' tirades of one individual in particular, but apparently some here find that impossible to do. PLEASE, LET IT GO!

The option is continuing and with that, turning off people who want to discuss pens and their use in peace, and having no one contributing here but EoC, you, Lloyd, and a handful of others who cannot recognise futility when it figuratively rises up and smacks them in the face.
Why stare at what you consider a car accident when you can drive on by?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Fine. I'll leave you to continue your endeavours. I'll seek my entertainment elsewhere for a while, say a month or so before looking in to see if you, EoC, and others have ended your sado-masochistic behaviour. TTFN

[TSherbs]

Fine. I'll leave you to continue your endeavours. I'll seek my entertainment elsewhere for a while, ...

So much suffering occurs from our seeking things where they cannot be found.

Peace.

[Jon Szanto]

So much suffering occurs from our seeking things where they cannot be found.

Irony has truly and finally died. No memorial service is planned.

[Lloyd]

So much suffering occurs from our seeking things where they cannot be found.

Irony has truly and finally died. No memorial service is planned.
Apparently, so has sympathy.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[724Seney]

So much suffering occurs from our seeking things where they cannot be found.

Irony has truly and finally died. No memorial service is planned.
Apparently, so has sympathy.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Sometimes you have to know when to say "when" Lloyd...........
This dog is long gone. Stop trying to resuscitate it. Ironically, that might now be the kinder approach.

[Lloyd]

So much suffering occurs from our seeking things where they cannot be found.

Irony has truly and finally died. No memorial service is planned.
Apparently, so has sympathy.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Sometimes you have to know when to say "when" Lloyd...........
This dog is long gone. Stop trying to resuscitate it. Ironically, that might now be the kinder approach.
Why do people not directly tied to EoC care what happens in this one thread? Isn't there at least one other thing to focus on either on this forum or in their life? I don't understand why people come into this thread just to ask for it to stop. It's not like a noisy neighbor... if you don't listen in, you can't hear it.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[724Seney]

So much suffering occurs from our seeking things where they cannot be found.

Irony has truly and finally died. No memorial service is planned.
Apparently, so has sympathy.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Sometimes you have to know when to say "when" Lloyd...........
This dog is long gone. Stop trying to resuscitate it. Ironically, that might now be the kinder approach.
Why do people not directly tied to EoC care what happens in this one thread? Isn't there at least one other thing to focus on either on this forum or in their life? I don't understand why people come into this thread just to ask for it to stop. It's not like a noisy neighbor... if you don't listen in, you can't hear it.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Oh, I see, there are a minimum number of posts in this thread or bad encounters with EoC which qualify one to be able to participate? Sorry, I did not see those rules posted somewhere Lloyd. My bad.
And, as long as we are on the topic, who exactly invited you to join the thread as our resident psychotherapist?
As for other things in one's life...... actually, yes, many of us have real lives and need to manage them. Not all of us are able to spend all our time sitting on FPG posting one cutsie, inane post after another.

[Lloyd]

Some care about the hurting members of our society; others shout "jump".

I didn't say someone shouldn't post here. I don't set laws here. I just don't understand why one would bother coming here requesting that we toss EoC roadside. I'm here trying to be supportive of EoC.
Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Jon Szanto]

Apparently, so has sympathy.

The hypocrisy in this statement is stunning, in both a public sense and a private sense. So, as for me, not at all: I feel very badly for, and empathize with, all those who have been hurt by the actions detailed in this particular thread, not to mention events not contained herein.

Is FPGeeks still a pleasant place to stay?

As my friend says, peace.

[724Seney]

Some care about hurting members of our society; others shout "jump".

70783

[Ron Z]

Why do people not directly tied to EoC care what happens in this one thread? if you don't listen in, you can't hear it

Because it isn't just this thread. It is a pattern of behavior that has gone on for years, across multiple threads. You can't avoid it. It isn't a matter of caring or not either. One may care without tolerating someone's disruptive behavior.