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dneal
June 14th, 2022, 03:28 PM
Ethernautrix posted:


Also, I suspect... it isn't just the guns. Do we have rites of passage, anymore? Would having that help? Are we failing our boys by not giving them guidance and activities to work out their frustrations and learn self-control and such?

... which I think is important. HERE's an interesting conversation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=lAqCISsZEM4) posted yesterday, with Dr. Warren Farrell, author of The Boy Crisis. Kind of long at 2 hours or so, but a small investment for those who are serious about understanding this issue. I listened to it while racing around my 3 acre lawnmower racetrack today.

A lot of points regarding many aspects ranging from "toxic masculinity" and the impact of that phrase's popularity on young men, the value of the father role and increasing fatherless households, etc...

I'll post more of those later, after those who might be interested have a chance to watch or listen and share their thoughts. One thing that came to mind was the "right of passage" concept and how it ties into the YouTube video.

The "right of passage" isn't about the event itself. It's about a positive male environment guiding boys along the route through adolescence to manhood - the last part of ethernautrix's point.

If you look at the timeline, you'll notice there are tagged sections by subtopic if there's something particular that does or doesn't grab your interest. Might make it easier than watching the whole thing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=lAqCISsZEM4

Chip
June 14th, 2022, 05:38 PM
Umm, could it be rite of passage? She got it right.

Jordan Peterson seldom gets anything right. He is to psychology what Mehmet Oz is to medicine: a master of the media grift.

Thin-skinned Jordan Peterson is wrong about everything but right about Twitter

Arwa Mahdawi

Tue 17 May 2022 12.58 EDT

https://i.imgur.com/WefzqbC.jpg

Jordan Peterson is an academic, an internet personality, and a big fan of beef. A man of many accomplishments, he’s most famous for writing a bestselling book called 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos while simultaneously living what can only be described as an incredibly chaotic life.

The latest Peterson drama comes to us via Twitter, which the academic has just dramatically announced he will be “departing” forever. Don’t worry, he’s not going to go quietly into that tweetless night; Peterson has promised us all a long article explaining his problems with the platform soon. For now, however, he wants us all to know that Twitter is a hellhole which makes your life infinitely worse.

“The endless flood of vicious insult [sic] is really not something that can be experienced anywhere else,” Peterson tweeted on Monday, “If I have something to say I’ll write an article or make a video. If the issue is not important enough to justify that then perhaps it would be best to just let it go.”

He adds, “I like to follow the people I know but I think the incentive structure of the platform makes it intrinsically and dangerously insane.”

I may not agree with Peterson on much but he’s spot on there. And I, for one, am really glad that the man once described in the New York Times as “the most influential public intellectual in the Western world”, has finally discovered what everyone else has been banging on about for years. Women and marginalized people, in particular, have been sounding the alarm about how Twitter, along with other social media platforms, ignores violence and abuse on the platform. They have been sounding the alarm about the intrinsically dangerous incentive structures of social media platforms, which prioritize engagement above everything else. But, you know, nothing in life is really important until a rich white guy starts paying attention.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/may/17/jordan-peterson-twitter-yumi-nu-sports-illustrated

dneal
June 14th, 2022, 06:20 PM
"Right" was intentional, just for you.

Is there some reason you still can't address a topic? This isn't about Peterson. If you can't debate ideas, debate personalities, and all that...

Bold2013
June 14th, 2022, 08:00 PM
I brought up a different Dr. Farrell interview a few weeks ago and was shot down too.

Boy crisis indeed which is feed/propagated by the ever so celebrated toxic feminism and gender dysphoria.

Lloyd
June 14th, 2022, 08:08 PM
I think the Book Maher video you (dneal) posted suggests a major influence to mostly male society. Also, a large part of the music industry seems to glamorize gangsta lives. Boys seek out idols to help define their morals and goals. Entertainment these days does little towards that.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Bold2013
June 14th, 2022, 08:10 PM
Real men (first and foremost their fathers) are the gatekeepers to boy’s rite of passage. If they don’t have these then they get sucked up into all the lies of the world.

dneal
June 14th, 2022, 08:18 PM
He's actually got an interesting bio. A 1970's "second wave feminist" and "the only man ever elected three times to the Board of the National Organization for Women in NYC" kind of immunizes him from the "MISOGYNY" screed we hear from the woke propaganda like Chip's article; even though his follow-on (NYT Bestselling) books are identical to the kind of thing Peterson's known for. "Myth of Male Power", for example.

It looks like he's done the homework on a few themes I've casually investigated. Once I finish Douglas Murray's latest, I think Dr. Farrell has two books I'll read next.

The linkage I'd like to see (and maybe he's done it already) is along the lines of the absence of the father figure in the black community and the gun violence the the media likes to ignore. The discussion above makes slight mention of gangs acting as an unhealthy surrogate for what fathers normally provide young men (strict boundaries, discipline, encouragement of individual empowerment, etc...).

—edit—

As to the last paragraph, Thomas Sowell’s work also ties in.

dneal
June 14th, 2022, 08:22 PM
I think the Book Maher video you (dneal) posted suggests a major influence to mostly male society. Also, a large part of the music industry seems to glamorize gangsta lives. Boys seek out idols to help define their morals and goals. Entertainment these days does little towards that.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

That's a thought I was waiting to bring up too. In the context of the discussion (they don't really address it), it seems the to me violent games and movies don't cause the behavior - which is probably why studies can't establish the correlation - but they contribute to it when a young male is in a vulnerable set of circumstances described in the discussion.

Admittedly it's a long video, but I thought it was fascinating and informative.

dneal
June 14th, 2022, 08:47 PM
My wife and I are parents of a 26 year old, and often discuss various aspects of his generation. Sharing this with her, I discovered an article on his site he published on USA Today. A decent summary of the basis of the discussion in the video.

LINK (https://warrenfarrell.com/dr-warren-farrells-usa-today-op-ed-on-the-boy-crisis/)


BOY CRISIS’ THREATENS AMERICA’S FUTURE WITH ECONOMIC, HEALTH AND SUICIDE RISKS

Warren Farrell, Opinion contributor Published 5:00 a.m. ET April 7, 2019 | Updated 5:46 p.m. ET April 9, 2019

I have discovered that there is, in fact, a boy crisis, that it is a global crisis, and that it is particularly egregious in the U.S.

In an astonishing disclosure about the two greatest dangers to the future of America’s economy, Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell revealed on CBS’ “60 Minutes” last month the peril posed by “young males”: young males not looking for work; being addicted to drugs (think opioid crisis); and being unprepared for the transition to technology.

Powell posits that this economic problem is also a national security problem. He implies that we ignore this crisis at our own peril. Yet his warning is ignored.

In my half-century of research on boys and men, I have discovered that there is, in fact, a boy crisis, that it is a global crisis, and that it is particularly egregious in America. The crisis is more than economic. It is multifaceted, with each facet magnifying the others.

It is a crisis of education. Worldwide, 60% of the students who achieve less than the baseline level of proficiency in any of the three core subjects of the Program for the International Assessment are boys (1). Even boys’ IQs are dropping (2).

It is a crisis of mental health. Boys’ suicide rate (3) goes from only slightly more than girls before age 15 to three times that of girls’ between 15 and 19, to 4 1/2 times that of girls between 20 and 24. Mass shooters (4), prisoners (5) and Islamic State terrorism recruits (6) are at least 90% male.

It is a crisis of physical health. American men’s life expectancy has decreased two-tenths of a year even as American women’s has remained the same (7). Boys and men are dying earlier in 14 out of 15 of the leading causes of death (8).

It is a crisis of shame — of boys feeling that their masculinity is toxic; that the future is female; that dads are but bumbling fools or deadbeats.

It is a crisis of economic health. The economy is making a transition from muscle to mental — or from muscle to microchip, as with the 1.7 million truck drivers (9) predicted to be largely replaced by self- driving trucks. With the United States neglecting vocational education, those with no high school degree have nearly three times the unemployment rate of those with a college degree.

BOYS ARE FALLING BEHIND WITHOUT DADS

Boys are falling behind (10) girls in the 63 largest developed nations. As developed nations developed solutions to surviving, they allowed more permission for divorce and for children to be raised with minimal or no father involvement. A great solution — less fear of starvation — created a new problem: dad-deprivation.

I discovered that the boy crisis resides where dads do not reside. For example, The American Psychological Association (11) found that father absence predicts the profile of both the bully and the bullied’s poor social skills, and the bully’s poor grades and self-esteem. According to a study in the Journal of Marriage and Family, every 1% increase in fatherlessness in a neighborhood predicts a 3% increase (12) in adolescent violence.

It starts early. Before six months of age, the less interaction a boy has with his dad, the lower his mental competence (13).

And dad-deprivation is a significant predictor of the increasing rate of male suicide (14), drug overdose, obesity (14) and withdrawal into video game addiction (15). It even predicts by age 9 a shorter life expectancy as determined by shorter telomeres (16), protective end caps of chromosomes. Aggregately, this leads to my predicting that the biggest gap between boys who are successful and unsuccessful in the future will be the gap between those who are dad-enriched versus dad-deprived.

As Powell points out, America exacerbates this problem by falling behind every developed nation in preparing our sons for the changes in technology. In contrast, Japan has extensive vocational education programs, with 99.6% of their graduates receiving jobs (17) after graduation. A boy who is not academically inclined may be bored by physics and chemistry until he learns that to be a highly paid welder, he needs them. Then he sees purpose, and his motivation changes.

THE SOLUTION IS INVOLVED FATHERS

There is a straightforward solution to dad-deprivation. It is dad-involvement. Conservatives have long supported dad-involvement; and both feminists Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem have said that mothers would not be equal at work until dads were equal in the home.

Plus, it addresses numerous problems: First, dad-deprived girls experience most of the problems faced by boys, albeit less intensely. Second, an involved dad predicts a son much more likely to be employed, so aspiring moms don’t have to search for a dad in unemployment lines. Third, with fewer boys defining their purpose as future warriors by being disposable in war, and fewer defining masculinity as being a sole breadwinner, millions of young men are experiencing a “purpose void.” Inspiring young men to become “Father Warriors” can fill that purpose void. But this also involves inspiring women to value father warriors.

Solutions to the boy crisis must be addressed simultaneously in the family, in schools and by policymakers. To name a few: Parents need communication training to prevent the divorces that breed the boy crisis. Schools need male teachers, vocational education and recess. Presidential candidates need to identify the boy crisis as a signature issue. And President Trump, with an executive order, can create a White House Council on Boys and Men to make the boy crisis a national priority, so millions of parents and sons do not feel isolated and ashamed — but supported to address a solution toward stronger families, more boy-friendly schools, and a more economically and psychologically secure America.

Bold2013
June 14th, 2022, 08:59 PM
This topic is also near to my heart having 4 boys at home

Lloyd
June 14th, 2022, 11:02 PM
I don't support the MALE FATHER theory. I think a supportive, enjoyable fit the child to be around, and "moral" (not violent, not abusive, not greedy, not lazy, etc.) structure that shows appreciation (and possibly guidance) of any "acceptable" passion of the child without forcing any other unnecessary behaviors goes a long way. Not every child idolized the same attributes. Their dad may be someone YOU view as the ultimate role model, but perhaps not to the child. My childhood heros were fairly atypical (Groucho, Einstein, Jim Thorpe, Springsteen) - nothing like the passions of my parents nor their parents.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Bold2013
June 15th, 2022, 06:00 AM
Lloyd what do you think of feminism?

Chuck Naill
June 15th, 2022, 06:41 AM
Thanks for posting.

dneal
June 15th, 2022, 06:43 AM
You could point out examples of poor fathers who are present in the home but do more harm than good. Dr. Farrell references some families where the mother tends to exhibit the "fatherly" traits and the father exhibits the "motherly" traits. Still, he isn't pulling this out of thin air and advocating some unexamined hypothesis. The link to the article I referenced above has hyperlinks to his references. He cited 17 18* for just a short USA Today op-ed.


1 https://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-gender-eng.pdf

2 https://www.theguardian.com/education/2006/jan/24/schools.uk

3 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2017/030.pdf

4 https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-female-mass-shooters-reveal-about-male-ones

5 https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_gender.jsp

6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12115-017-0114-0#Tab4

7 https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/12/life-expectancy/548981/

8 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

9 https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-automated-trucks-labor-20160924/

10 https://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-gender-eng.pdf

11 https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-07/apa-wil070810.php

12 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2005.00168.x

13 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/512643

14 https://www.mnpsych.org/index.php?option=com_dailyplanetblog&view=entry&category=industry%20news&id=54:father-absent-homes-implications-for-criminal-justice-and-mental-health-professionals

14 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160624140429.htm

15 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.00095/full

16 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/140/2/e20163245

17 https://japantoday.com/category/features/executive-impact/vocational-schools-on-the-move

Here's a short video with John Anderson where he describes one example of the important role fathers play, how it differs from mothers, and why it's important.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQcPN1syJuE

Young men seem to search for adult male figures who exhibit the traits Dr. Farrell describes. Maybe that's a friend's father, an uncle, a teacher, etc... unfortunately it's also gang environments and other negative influencers. What's worst, it seems, is when there's no "father" figure present. Dr. Farrell has done the homework on that too - and the Uvalde shooter fits the criteria.

The entire John Anderson interview is Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jet7oeDYf8)

*actually 18, including the truncated numbering error with number 14

Chuck Naill
June 15th, 2022, 10:29 AM
I’ve consider getting involved. I’d like to address “toxic masculinity” and “Toxic Feminism”. Neither originated out of thin air. Actions, institutions, prejudices, and beliefs are behind both.

I see the benefit of girls and boys playing sports together at least before puberty.

There would be a positive in boys learning to be a caregiver like taking care of babies and toddlers. It produces an others orientation.

That a father is in the home is no guarantee. A benevolent/nurturing male as a coach or mentor goes a long way.

What the OP is about primarily is a look back into what causes young males to become a mass killer. This is different from a forward thinking consideration into how to parent. A book that helped me was How to Really Love Your Child by Ross Campbell. He sets forward three things, active listening, eye contact, and unconditional love.

dneal
June 15th, 2022, 10:55 AM
Chuck, you should at least watch the shorter 10 minute video of Dr. Farrell. You'll see he is focused on parenting as well. His work isn't centered on mass shooters. He just notes it as one more consequence.

Chuck Naill
June 15th, 2022, 11:02 AM
I did watch several minutes. I’m just offering what came to mind.

Chip
June 15th, 2022, 12:19 PM
"Right" was intentional, just for you.

Is there some reason you still can't address a topic? This isn't about Peterson. If you can't debate ideas, debate personalities, and all that...

So you do stupid stuff just so I'll notice you? Golly!

Meanwhile, did you fail to note that the video link you posted features Jordan Peterson?

Wonder if JP and the other bloke have well-thumbed copies of Iron John by Robert Bly?

With so many fools proclaiming their manhood as a virtue, rather than a simple fact, and so much emphasis on macho military BS (e.g. Top Gun) it's no wonder boys are confused. Their fantasies are quite distant from the lives they're called upon to live.

Not many job openings for cowboys. :wave:

Chuck Naill
June 15th, 2022, 12:26 PM
This is a shout out to @dneal, is it your purpose to post something for which you hold as true,‘then troll the rest of us to agree? The honest feedback or pushback is something you should consider.

dneal
June 15th, 2022, 01:36 PM
"Right" was intentional, just for you.

Is there some reason you still can't address a topic? This isn't about Peterson. If you can't debate ideas, debate personalities, and all that...

So you do stupid stuff just so I'll notice you? Golly!

Meanwhile, did you fail to note that the video link you posted features Jordan Peterson?

Wonder if JP and the other bloke have well-thumbed copies of Iron John by Robert Bly?

With so many fools proclaiming their manhood as a virtue, rather than a simple fact, and so much emphasis on macho military BS (e.g. Top Gun) it's no wonder boys are confused. Their fantasies are quite distant from the lives they're called upon to live.

Not many job openings for cowboys. :wave:

Still debating personalities... Do you have anything constructive to add? I can find Twitter-level banality in all sorts of places.

dneal
June 15th, 2022, 01:42 PM
This is a shout out to @dneal, is it your purpose to post something for which you hold as true,‘then troll the rest of us to agree? The honest feedback or pushback is something you should consider.

Chuck, with all sincerity - you are a smart guy. I don't have all the answers. I comment on things that interest me and that I've looked at over the years. I try to share that. I'm happy to learn too. Jar's posts in the "Definition of Christian" thread come to mind of how much knowledge can be shared that I'm happy to benefit from.

Make your case. You can persuade with well crafted posts. Links to op-eds, not so much; and not at all with vitriol and insult.

Same goes for you, Chip. If I just posted Fox and Newsmax links all day, and posted nonsense about "Left Wing Loonies", would you be persuaded? Would you find the posts interesting? Or would you just roll your eyes and move on?

ethernautrix
June 16th, 2022, 04:44 AM
I listened to the Dr. Warren Farrell interview. Thanks for the link, dneal. I have the longer video saved to "watch later."

So... is it more precisely a Father Crisis? Rather like the chicken-or-the-egg question.

Note that I only half-listened while engaged in other tasks (and "rewound" a couple of times which interrupted the flow), so I'm blurting my reactions.

When I hear about the unintended consequences of divorce, I can't help but think why divorce's becoming easier to obtain was crucial: so many women were prisoner to their husbands. In my own lifetime, a woman wasn't able to get her own credit card and in (I've forgotten what state), until the late 1990s, marital rape was considered a husband's right and a woman's duty.

Maybe the larger problem is... we suck as people. Haha.

When pre-marital pregnancy was stigmatized, especially before Roe v. Wade, marriage was often the solution, but it was a decision based on panic and saving face, not so much on what would be best for all involved.

I don't know. I started blurting stuff out, with one eye on the clock (gotta run errands before the scattered thunderstorms arrive), so maybe now isn't the best time to comment. Thoughts are all ajumble in my head: Men build skyscrapers and bridges! Men dig deep into the earth for coal and diamonds and other commodities! Men are soldiers! (I know that women are soldiers, too -- and police officers and fire fighters. Fitness: Are women as strong as men for these jobs? Look at some of these morbidly obese cops, though. I mean, seriously.)

All ajumble.

I do want to point out, though, that a recent study (which I'd have to find the article I skimmed to cite sources) shows that team participation in sports leads to better mental health than no participation in sports which is better than participation in solo sports, like swimming and cycling. The YT video was published about two years ago. Just throwin' it out there.

It's a big issue: men, women, boys, girls. The controversial What is a woman? Well, what is a man? Is the boy crisis (which I wasn't aware that there was a capitalized topic, The Boy Crisis, when I blurted out my questions in the other thread, just something I was sortv noticing semi-consciously) a factor in the transgender trend?

I'm kindv laughing over here cos what the hell is going on?! Society is just spinning out, all these tornadoes of controversy wreaking damage here and there. That's just my perception; I'm not an expert; I haven't been paying close attention. I'm more like a honey bee drowsily wandering the garden than a... thing that picks up a subject and studies it indepth, what is that? A genius, probably. (Penn Jillete says that we invented the word genius to make an excuse for laziness. Ouch. That sounds right, maybe cos I can feel the pang!)

I'm leaving this comment, cos if I start over, I don't know when that'll be, and other comments will divert me, so... FWIW. I gotta outrun some thunderstorms, y'all.

Empty_of_Clouds
June 16th, 2022, 05:20 AM
[22.2315-2315/49.16.6]

archive searched

date retrieved

partial record presented

/On the 50th anniversary of the ISSA and IRSS, Jay Coakley, a foundational scholar in the development of the sociology of sport, reflects on the lasting power of the Great Sport Myth (GSM) to shape cultural understandings of sport. Situated in an unshakable belief about the inherent purity and goodness of sport, it is argued that the GSM has shaped uncountable decisions to embrace and sponsor sports despite their costs and what they may preclude in the way of other private and public choices. In assessing the challenges of the field, the author points to the influence of the GSM in masking and enabling personal power that has enabled ruling elites to appropriate public money for private gain/

dneal
June 16th, 2022, 06:35 AM
@ ethernautrix - A little diversion first. My wife was watching a "Bret and Heather" video yesterday morning. I heard most of it, but the gist was a problem of "specialization". We've categorized and diversified disciplines to the point that people become so specialized that we've sort of lost sight of the bigger picture. We can metaphorically discuss every minor detail of every tree, but have completely lost sight of the forest and the complex system it is. How everything interacts with everything else...

There are positives and negatives to pretty much everything. Modernity has changed the situation of every human, but we seem to become myopic on specifics and only focus on the negatives (or the positives, as it suits an agenda). Modern women certainly have a legitimate set of grievances, but they ignore the benefits they enjoyed. "Women and children first", for example. The evil patriarchy that wouldn't let women vote or have bank accounts also sacrificed men's lives to protect women. My wife and I joke about what if it were men who rebelled against the system. "It's not fair that I have to go out and till the field, hunt the mastodon, work the factory job, provide for the family, get drafted to fight the wars, not be allowed on the lifeboat, etc..." When we start arguing the point from the "oppression olympics" perspective (who has or had it worse), the conversation fails. Life is nasty, brutish, and short - for everybody. Doesn't matter what kind of genitals one has.

We've changed a lot in society since the post-war era. Thousands of years of evolution altered by technology and convenience and discovery. We did it for a lot of noble reasons - women's rights being one. But we've also ignored (or were ignorant of) the repercussions. Solving some problems created others.

Yes, the thesis Dr. Farrell advances is that societal changes have created conditions detrimental to boys - and the father role is part of it. What's interesting in the Peterson interview is that while Farrell makes his points on the perspective of boys - Peterson interjects with the problems created for girls who don't have a positive father figure.

I don't know why society can't stop shouting myopic perspectives at each other, while ignoring, discounting, dismissing and recently demonizing anything that doesn't align with one's specific narrative. We're fighting over which species of tree is best, and which one is worst - ruining the forest and wondering why we don't have as much shade as we used to (the metaphor starts to fall apart... lol).

Chuck Naill
June 16th, 2022, 09:22 AM
As with most things, the way to raise girls and boys is learning what not to do, or breaking the mold of dysfunction.

Bold2013
June 16th, 2022, 09:29 AM
Maybe the larger problem is... we suck as people. Haha.



Agreed.

Chuck Naill
June 16th, 2022, 09:38 AM
Sad

Chip
June 16th, 2022, 12:55 PM
If you'd like a deeper dive than a YouTube video, there are many books and papers on the subject, starting with Arnold van Gennep (1909) Les rites de passage/The Rites of Passage.

"Rites of passage have three phases: separation, liminality, and incorporation, as van Gennep described. 'I propose to call the rites of separation from a previous world, preliminal rites, those executed during the transitional stage liminal (or threshold) rites, and the ceremonies of incorporation into the new world postliminal rites.'

In the first phase, people withdraw from their current status and prepare to move from one place or status to another. 'The first phase (of separation) comprises symbolic behavior signifying the detachment of the individual or group ... from an earlier fixed point in the social structure.' There is often a detachment or 'cutting away' from the former self in this phase, which is signified in symbolic actions and rituals. For example, the cutting of the hair for a person who has just joined the army. He or she is 'cutting away"'the former self: the civilian.

The transition (liminal) phase is the period between stages, during which one has left one place or state but has not yet entered or joined the next. 'The attributes of liminality or of liminal personae (threshold people) are necessarily ambiguous.'

In the third phase (reaggregation or incorporation) the passage is consummated [by] the ritual subject. Having completed the rite and assumed their "new" identity, one re-enters society with one's new status. Re-incorporation is characterized by elaborate rituals and ceremonies, like debutante balls and college graduation, and by outward symbols of new ties: thus 'in rites of incorporation there is widespread use of the sacred bond, the sacred cord, the knot, and of analogous forms such as the belt, the ring, the bracelet and the crown.' "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_passage

A classic of the genre, with a deeply feminine point of view, is Coming of Age in Samoa.

https://i.imgur.com/V3gtRd9.jpg

While Polynesian scholars have pointed out some flaws in the work, it endures as a landmark.

My comment about Iron John refers to the 1990 book by poet Robert Bly.

https://i.imgur.com/3nJ9ICx.jpg

Based on the Grimm brothers tale, it explores male identity and coming-of-age from a Jüngian perspective "applied to myths, legends, and fairy tales to find lessons especially meaningful to men and the men's movement.

Bly believed that the fairy tale of Iron John contained lessons from the past of great importance to modern men, which could provide positive images of masculinity in an increasingly feminist age. He considered Iron John to be an archetype of the Self, and the hero’s interactions with him to represent a katabasis, or exploratory journey into the inner depths, where new sources of positive masculine sexuality could be found and tapped.

Bly also stressed in the book the need in consciousness raising to accept the father’s world, the paternal values of limitation, sobriety, and authority; and warned against the dangers of the high-flying ascensionist who is “flying away from the father, not toward him...the psychology of men like Thoreau determined to have a higher consciousness than their fathers”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men

The video is a watered-down neo-con version of Bly's ideas.

Another good book on the subject is Nature & Madness by Paul Shepard.

https://i.imgur.com/cLdGTAL.jpg

"Does any species other than the human befoul its nest, destroy the habitat on which it depends? Strangely, yes; such shortsightedness happens in the natural world all the time. But no species does so with as much conscious awareness, a matter that fascinated the philosopher Paul Shepard. In Nature and Madness he examines the human animal in relation to the natural environment, showing the kinds of psychic disjunctions and troubles that have developed over the generations that humans have been seeking to distance themselves from the world. Shepard locates the source of much of those troubles in the invention of agriculture, an act that gave humans the false idea that nature can be controlled and micromanaged in every detail--an idea that has found modern fruit in such things as dam-building and genetic engineering.

Environmental destruction, writes Shepard, is a "mutilation of personal maturity," a failure of emotional development; continuing the metaphor, he adds that 'the only society more frightful than one run by children ... might be one run by childish adults.' "

https://archive.org/details/ShepardNatureAndMadness

In short, Shepard believes that in the present day very few children and adolescents have the time or guidance to learn how the world works, through observation and experience. Thus, they pass their lives in an immature state, driven by childish urges and desires.

Shepard was a close friend and we talked about the book, and the ideas, many times.

Lloyd
June 16th, 2022, 01:46 PM
Related to dneal's post - I read this applicable quote the other day

If you're going to hold someone down you're going to have to hold on by the other end of the chain. You are confined by your own repression. by Toni Morrison




Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Lloyd
June 16th, 2022, 06:15 PM
I thought this pediatrician's thoughts on part of this was interesting. I made a pdf of the short journal opinion piece.

COMMENTARY

Why Do Young Men Target Schools for Violent Attacks? And What Can We Do About It?
Barbara J. Howard, MD
http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/62abc772d23a4/MD_Commentary.PDF


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Chip
June 16th, 2022, 07:53 PM
Warren Farrell is a curious case. He started out in the 1970s as a scholar and advocate for feminism, serving on the board of NOW, then initiated a similar "mens movement." Now he seems to have flipped over to the male side completely. Peterson is well-known for blaming the psychological ills of boys and men on women, along with things such as pay disparity (women are too agreeable (!), low self-esteem, domestic violence, etc.

Something that just occurred to me is that male-dominated institutions that oversee rites of passage (the Catholic and Southern Baptist churches, the Boy Scouts) have proved to be hotbeds of rape and molestation. Not only have they allowed the acts, but have gone to great lengths to excuse them and cover them up. Is sexual submission to a priest a Catholic rite of passage? Seems as if that would produce a large cohort of alienated, pathologically angry young men.

In Leave No Trace, survivors speak about what they endured under the Boy Scouts of America, leading to the biggest sexual abuse settlement in history.

David Smith
Wed 15 Jun 2022

For John Humphrey, childhood used to mean having fun in the backyard of his home in New Jersey. “We had a rule that we couldn’t go any farther than the bell or the sound of my mother’s whistle,” he recalls. “I was always digging and playing.” Then Humphrey went to a school that offered a Boy Scout programme. “I just loved the outdoors and this particular troop camped 12 months a year. It didn’t matter – winter, snow, ice, hot – I loved that part of it.”

Between the ages of 11 and 13, Humphrey was sexually abused by a Scout master more than 200 times. His hair fell out when he was 13 and he has been bald ever since. He buried the trauma for decades and did not break his silence until he was 55.

Humphrey’s is among the stories told in Leave No Trace, a documentary that investigates the century-long cover-up of sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). The film tells how, after more than 82,000 men stepped forward, the BSA filed for bankruptcy, leading to the biggest sexual abuse settlement in history.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/jun/15/boy-scouts-sexual-abuse-leave-no-trace-film?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Lloyd
June 16th, 2022, 08:21 PM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

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Chip
June 16th, 2022, 09:21 PM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Presumably the actual figures are somewhat hard to determine, given the withholding of information.

If you want to know, try a search. I'm not your research assistant.

Lloyd
June 16th, 2022, 09:46 PM
My point is that I think both these percentiles would be miniscule. Tragic and, in many cases, preventable but not a huge societal impact.

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Chip
June 16th, 2022, 10:43 PM
My point is that I think both these percentiles would be miniscule. Tragic and, in many cases, preventable but not a huge societal impact.

So the steep decline of the Catholic Church, particularly in historically Catholic countries such as Ireland, is not a huge societal impact?

So the Boy Scouts going into bankruptcy because of sexual assault claims is not a huge societal impact?

Lloyd
June 16th, 2022, 11:16 PM
My point is that I think both these percentiles would be miniscule. Tragic and, in many cases, preventable but not a huge societal impact.

So the steep decline of the Catholic Church, particularly in historically Catholic countries such as Ireland, is not a huge societal impact?

So the Boy Scouts going into bankruptcy because of sexual assault claims is not a huge societal impact?
Ireland? I didn't know we were talking about the worldwide issue.

Not in my eyes (raised Jewish, never a scout). I went to public school not a Catholic school. Virtually none of my classmates were scouts. I've yet to read about any of them committing atrocities.
Isn't the Catholic Church and the (Original) Boy Scouts more likely to teach that boys were better than girls? Girls couldn't become a priest nor could they do survival- they could make smores and sell cookies.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

TSherbs
June 19th, 2022, 05:28 AM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 11:07 AM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.
I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Chuck Naill
June 19th, 2022, 11:32 AM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.
I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

How could either be a dominant force and not the parents themselves? I have encountered teachers and coaches with no filter. A parent should put them in line. Parents are their child's advocate.

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 11:56 AM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.
I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

How could either be a dominant force and not the parents themselves? I have encountered teachers and coaches with no filter. A parent should put them in line. Parents are their child's advocate.

Did you look at what Chip wrote?

What if a child doesn't tell their parents?

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Chuck Naill
June 19th, 2022, 11:59 AM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.
I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

How could either be a dominant force and not the parents themselves? I have encountered teachers and coaches with no filter. A parent should put them in line. Parents are their child's advocate.

Did you look at what Chip wrote?

What if a child doesn't tell their parents?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Are you a parent?

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 12:09 PM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.
I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

How could either be a dominant force and not the parents themselves? I have encountered teachers and coaches with no filter. A parent should put them in line. Parents are their child's advocate.

Did you look at what Chip wrote?

What if a child doesn't tell their parents?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Are you a parent?
Yes

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Chuck Naill
June 19th, 2022, 12:15 PM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.
I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

How could either be a dominant force and not the parents themselves? I have encountered teachers and coaches with no filter. A parent should put them in line. Parents are their child's advocate.

Did you look at what Chip wrote?

What if a child doesn't tell their parents?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Are you a parent?
Yes

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Congratulations. Then, I suspect you know the role of parenting and not trusting any one with your child's wellbeing.

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 12:20 PM
This thread is "The Boy Crisis". The topic got side tracked by Chip.

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Chip
June 19th, 2022, 12:57 PM
This thread is "The Boy Crisis". The topic got side tracked by Chip.

You have a narrow-gauge mind.

https://i.imgur.com/GIsSJvI.jpg

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 01:26 PM
This thread is "The Boy Crisis". The topic got side tracked by Chip.

You have a narrow-gauge mind.

https://i.imgur.com/GIsSJvI.jpg
Why are you commenting on my thought processes as opposed to commenting on my statement? I don't blame the Catholic Church nor the boy scouts (nor their weakened status due in part to the pedophiles within the groups) on the boy crisis.

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TSherbs
June 19th, 2022, 03:12 PM
As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.
I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

He was not doing that, in my reading. He was questioning the value/health of ritual and rites of passage in lives of young men. He was pointing out three large American national scale institutions that include heavy use of ritual but in fact have terrorized young men and scarred thousands. Seems fair to mention while others are extolling the virtue of ritual to be reminded that it is clearly no panacea. Maybe even evil when it becomes a cover for abuse.

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 03:28 PM
In this post (after discussing Petterson), https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368440, he just discusses the impact of the pedophilia.

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TSherbs
June 19th, 2022, 05:17 PM
In this post (after discussing Petterson), https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368440, he just discusses the impact of the pedophilia.

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Yes, I read that. That is what I was referring to. I am saying that I read that post differently, and I explained how I read it. He was accused of pulling the thread off topic, but he was not the only one discussing the role of ritual, or its loss, on men in society. In fact, I think that Ether speculated on this in the OP. My point ws to say that Chip was not derailing or distracting the thread. He was just bringing up an important consequence to institutions (large, once-trusted ones) build on traditions, especially for young men. I think that this is right on topic (one of the topics).

I found less easy to understand why you asked questions about how many abuses cases come from priests or ministers or scout leaders, etc. The answer, in raw numbers, is thousands and thousands (for example, 1000 cases in seven Pennsylvania Catholic county diocese alone...that's not even the entire state..and that is just one state). I read your question as an effort to minimize the social damage that these abuse scandals have on America, and I did not understand why you were trying to do that. Maybe you are not aware of the numbers or the spread of this vile practice through several of these organizations, from top to bottom. There has been great impact (forgive me, but I am going to simply assert it. I am not out to prove anything here), and now even on those Protestants who have hidden behind the arrogant shield of "Well, *we* let ministers marry. *We* don't have the problems that those vile papists do. It's the corruption inherent in Catholic hierarchy" (That is a virtual quote from an evangelical aquaintance).

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 06:41 PM
I guess I thought the numbers were lower. Do you/Chip think the issue is strongly due to the reduction of these institutions in recent years due to the pedophiles (and other reasons for membership decline) or the impact of these institutions, especially when they were strong, to cause these psychological ills to the boys?

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TSherbs
June 19th, 2022, 08:06 PM
I guess I thought the numbers were lower. Do you/Chip think the issue is strongly due to the reduction of these institutions in recent years due to the pedophiles (and other reasons for membership decline) or the impact of these institutions, especially when they were strong, to cause these psychological ills to the boys?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Has child abuse directly caused mass killings? I have no idea. I don't know the personal lives of these killers. Psychological profilers know this better.

But the idea that some of them have grown up with absent fathers is an incredibly lazy, superficial pattern. Since so many marriages today end in divorce, you might be narroeing the focus a bit more to look at males born on Tuesdays. See if they share behavior traits any more commonly than turning into mass murderers.

So, no, I don't think this thread has gotten any where near any kind of understanding about what has been tipping these men (mostly young, but definitely not all) into what is most often suicidal murder.

My commentary on the RCC (and other) abuse cases was to agree with Chip that traditional ritualized male developmental stages are not always the solution that we want. We should be very skeptical of them, since they have failed us at times spectacularly.

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 08:18 PM
I've often read that bullying begets bullying. Whether from parents, siblings, peers, or neighbors. This would imply that the absent father isn't the issue, but the belligerent/unloving father is.

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dneal
June 19th, 2022, 08:38 PM
I've often read that bullying begets bullying. Whether from parents, siblings, peers, or neighbors. This would imply that the absent father isn't the issue, but the belligerent/unloving father is.

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It's the role of the father, whether absent or unloving. It's all in the interview(s). It's in the book (https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Crisis-Boys-Struggling-About/dp/1942952716), and it's in many of the articles (https://warrenfarrell.com/articles-of-the-month/)

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 09:07 PM
I've often read that bullying begets bullying. Whether from parents, siblings, peers, or neighbors. This would imply that the absent father isn't the issue, but the belligerent/unloving father is.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™


It's the role of the father, whether absent or unloving. It's all in the interview(s). It's in the book (https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Crisis-Boys-Struggling-About/dp/1942952716), and it's in many of the articles (https://warrenfarrell.com/articles-of-the-month/)
Your books/articles on this subject can't show cause and effect. Without any father (vagrant or deceased), a great support system via mom/grandparents/social circle, I would think could be just as effective

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dneal
June 19th, 2022, 09:18 PM
They’re not mine, they’re the person’s in the OP. Dismissing a social scientist because they don’t show cause and effect is a bit disingenuous, when the standard is strength of correlation. That’s also the standard for many, if not most hard sciences.

Have you watched either of the interviews? Perused the articles? Or are you making arguments in ignorance (the literal meaning, not the snarky one)?

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 09:59 PM
They’re not mine, they’re the person’s in the OP. Dismissing a social scientist because they don’t show cause and effect is a bit disingenuous, when the standard is strength of correlation. That’s also the standard for many, if not most hard sciences.

Have you watched either of the interviews? Perused the articles? Or are you making arguments in ignorance (the literal meaning, not the snarky one)?
I'm not saying they're wrong, just that the "absent father" hypothesis on its own may not be verifiable. I haven't read/ watched these specific individual's work.
You stated, unequivocally, that it's the father's role. I questioned the accuracy of this proclamation.
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Chip
June 19th, 2022, 10:55 PM
Do you/Chip think the issue is strongly due to the reduction of these institutions in recent years due to the pedophiles (and other reasons for membership decline) or the impact of these institutions, especially when they were strong, to cause these psychological ills to the boys?

Neither. What I was trying to say is that the role of formerly trusted institutions such as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts to conduct rites of passage has been damaged by the recurrent scandals.

The combination of sexual abuse by priests and the outright torture, starvation, and forced labor by nuns in the Magdalene Laundries and Mother-and-Baby Homes in Ireland has ruined the status of the Catholic Church. I suspect something similar will soon visit the Southern Baptists. The lawsuits by the thousands abused in Boy Scout programs caused the organization to go bankrupt, and quite a few parents are justly suspicious of the Boy Scouts.

Rites of passage and initiations are most often conducted by groups. When those groups forfeit the public trust, who's going to do it?

Football coaches? Drill instructors? Dope dealers?

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 11:07 PM
Do you/Chip think the issue is strongly due to the reduction of these institutions in recent years due to the pedophiles (and other reasons for membership decline) or the impact of these institutions, especially when they were strong, to cause these psychological ills to the boys?

Neither. What I was trying to say is that the role of formerly trusted institutions such as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts to conduct rites of passage has been damaged by the recurrent scandals.

The combination of sexual abuse by priests and the outright torture, starvation, and forced labor by nuns in the Magdalene Laundries and Mother-and-Baby Homes in Ireland has ruined the status of the Catholic Church. I suspect something similar will soon visit the Southern Baptists. The lawsuits by the thousands abused in Boy Scout programs caused the organization to go bankrupt, and quite a few parents are justly suspicious of the Boy Scouts.

Rites of passage and initiations are most often conducted by groups. When those groups forfeit the public trust, who's going to do it?

Football coaches? Drill instructors? Dope dealers?
Are you implying that the reduction of the Catholic Church and Boy Scouts will lead to a larger crisis? The pedophilia had been going on for, at least, decades before they were reported and the Boy Crisis was already quite strong. I wonder when the last time there wasn't a boy crisis in the USA.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Chip
June 19th, 2022, 11:22 PM
I'm not implying anything. Facts are facts. The Catholic pedophilia has likely gone on for hundreds of years, but was hidden by the church and largely ignored by the devout.

What I'm trying to get across is that rites of passage and initiation (necessary for an adult status) depend on trust.

Much of this 'boy crisis' stuff is white male hysteria in reaction to a loss of respect and/or social dominance.

Most rape, abuse, violence, etc. is directed by men toward women. Fact.

But I've heard nothing here about a 'girl crisis.'

Lloyd
June 19th, 2022, 11:35 PM
I'm sorry but I'm still not getting it. Maybe it because neither were part of my world. Ever. Do you think that as long as these two institutions have been around, the crisis was largely due to them? Do you think there reduction will help reduce the crisis?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Chip
June 19th, 2022, 11:39 PM
I give up.

Night-night.

Lloyd
June 20th, 2022, 01:20 AM
I hope I didn't offend you. I was/am interested in your(and others) thoughts on this.

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ethernautrix
June 20th, 2022, 04:33 AM
I asked generally about rites of passage, cos I don't know.

Anyway, I've been watching this video and made a few notes (quotations for further exploration), but have to dash out halfway through, cos Łapa is complaining (rightly so) that she hasn't been outside yet. So... I have to take her out in the thunderstorm.


https://youtu.be/Fai1h9KTxDc

Kidology (YouTube): "How PSYCHOLOGY TOOK OVER the modern world...or, An Analysis of Jordan B. Peterson" (2022-02-28)
NOTE: I can't vouch for Kidology having watched only one video only recently, and then this morning this video coincidentally (!) appeared as a suggestion.

[26:03] "Unlike Freud, [Peterson] has an audience of largely disgruntled, lower-middle-class-to-upper-middle-class, young, Caucasian men. They are literate, relatively well-educated, and, since the advent of a greater emphasis on identity, human rights, and especially women's rights, [and] have not only been relegated but quite brutally discarded by modern society and its standards."

[26:37] Kidology cites a study (or studies?) by University of South Florida: women who earn more than their male partners are twice as likely to fake orgasm which is explained as a kind of compensation. "Researchers have posited that this is the only true way in which one can identify masculine achievement in this day and age." (I'd think that the height of masculine achievement would be to bring women to orgasm. Heh.)

Kidology also mentions (without specific attribution) that studies show that "both men and women feel that men need to be married more than women do."

[Personal note: My (now ex-)husband used to joke, "I need a wife!" (To keep house.) I said, "OK! I'll quit my job and stay home and clean the house and cook." Nope! Not acceptable. "Then let's hire a house-cleaning service twice a month." (Small house -- and we weren't particularly messy.) Also not acceptable. Note that he would mop the floors and clean without complaining (aside from joking about needing a wife). He also sometimes sing out, "Why can't a woman be more like a man?" "You should have married a man, then," I'd answer. I mean, rhetorically, since this was some years before equal rights to marriage were granted in the U.S. -- BTW, I have felt sometimes, too, that I wished I'd had a wife, not necessarily a woman, but someone who loved me and took care of the quotidian chores so that I could conquer some creative project(s) that I never get around to cos of all my care-taking. P.S. I was not taught to put myself first, ever, so it's been a long, steep hill I'm still climbing.]

[27.38] Clarifying "young men have been discarded by modern society," she means existentially. "[W]hen it comes to an appreciation and finding of identity, that is in terms of purpose, critical theories have taken the historical place of the Caucasian male as the founder nd leader of the new world, of civilization, of the family and ideology and turned it on its head."

[28:12] "[W]hat made a family was not the man but the woman who had sacrificed her individuality in the interest of her husband and children and is biologically of greater value."

[28:24] "Ideology before critical theories failed miserably, because it didn't comprehend or feature or in any way represent the vast majority of the human population, namely women, non-white populations, children, other sexualities, genders. A consequence of this is that modern society celebrates everything except what it traditionally and historically was, and I would argue that this is because the beliefs and mores of the modern world are defined not by religion, as was the case in pre-modern times, or by ideology, as was most definitely the case last century, but by psychology, by a pre-occupation with the individual insofar as they [sic.] have a mind in need of study and health, insofar as the life of the mind is concerned, and insofar as emotions have become pivotal to understanding the modern human experience and economy."

[29:46] Due to psychology's "pre-occupation with the life of the mind, the psyche, and emotions, it is inherently feminine."


Someone mentioned "girl crisis." Just blurting out (in a hurry!): Seems that men have preyed on girls and women and boys... forever. (#notallmen #notonlymen -- I know, but generally, predominantly.) So is this a modern problem? Or is this an age-old problem that we're trying to solve? (That we think we can solve?)

(Łapa cries again.) Gotta dash!

TSherbs
June 20th, 2022, 07:27 AM
I appreciate the effort you made for the other readers here, Ether. I've recently had a rough battle with COVID, and I still have brain fog (virus still not cleared), and so I have to limit screentime and watching vids just makes me dizzy. The quotes you typed up for us here are intriguing.

The only thing that I would add is that the traditional definitions of gender and parenting also have to be reexamined. That might be half the problem: the old boxes no longer work (the old flaws have had their full consequences now that the full weight of culture no longer presses people to suppress their discontent).

Empty_of_Clouds
June 20th, 2022, 07:34 AM
It's complicated. Gender clearly is assigned as a biological sex-aligned thing at birth. Gender choice doesn't occur until later. How much later I have no idea. Are parents then to refrain from imprinting gender roles until such a time as a child can decide? Perhaps all children are neutral until then? I have no idea how any of this could work without causing a great deal of confusion in families (as the primary social construction site) and in the school system (both in formal and in the hidden curriculum).

Interestingly enough, pink used to be for boys and blue for girls, in Western societies. I'm reading sociology at University, so touch on a lot of this stuff (but I wouldn't say I understand it that well).

Chuck Naill
June 20th, 2022, 09:29 AM
I appreciate the effort you made for the other readers here, Ether. I've recently had a rough battle with COVID, and I still have brain fog (virus still not cleared), and so I have to limit screentime and watching vids just makes me dizzy. The quotes you typed up for us here are intriguing.

The only thing that I would add is that the traditional definitions of gender and parenting also have to be reexamined. That might be half the problem: the old boxes no longer work (the old flaws have had their full consequences now that the full weight of culture no longer presses people to suppress their discontent).

Sorry to hear about your experiences with COVID-19.

TSherbs
June 20th, 2022, 09:49 AM
Thanks, Chuck. I wasn't going to mention it at all (it was all of last week), but I was grateful to Ether for distilling the video down to those intriguing passages, that I was able to digest.

Bold2013
June 20th, 2022, 09:57 AM
TS hope you have a speedy recovery.

Chuck Naill
June 20th, 2022, 10:59 AM
Before we get too carried away by the South Florida study, we should include a photo of Johnny Depp’s fanatical female supporters. They sure appeared orgasmic!!😂😂😂

Having worked in healthcare with hundreds of women in various levels of responsibility, they can sure be an ugly bunch toward each other. Most women will agree if you ask.

Lloyd
June 20th, 2022, 11:25 AM
TS- Have you tried injecting bleach? I heard it may help....j/k
I hope you feel better soon.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Chuck Naill
June 20th, 2022, 12:47 PM
Injecting bleach works!! I watched a YouTube video of a phd in logistics say it would work…..

The same guy said I needed to go back to cotton underwear.

Chip
June 20th, 2022, 01:14 PM
Someone mentioned "girl crisis." Just blurting out (in a hurry!): Seems that men have preyed on girls and women and boys... forever. (#notallmen #notonlymen -- I know, but generally, predominantly.) So is this a modern problem? Or is this an age-old problem that we're trying to solve? (That we think we can solve?)

How Churches Can Do Better at Responding to Sexual Abuse
June 19, 2022
Tish Harrison Warren

In May, a third-party investigation into the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, concluded that some former members of its top leadership committee, along with outside counsel, “closely guarded information about abuse allegations and lawsuits” and “were singularly focused on avoiding liability.”

As a result, the report said, “survivors and others who reported abuse were ignored, disbelieved, or met with the constant refrain that the SBC could take no action” because of its organizational structure “even if it meant that convicted molesters continued in ministry.” The report also showed that hundreds of people associated with the denomination had been accused of abuse, and that a list containing their names had long been kept secret.

Rachael Denhollander is a lawyer and a former gymnast who was the first woman to publicly accuse Larry Nassar, the former doctor for U.S.A. Gymnastics, of sexual abuse. In addition, she has worked with survivors and Southern Baptist leaders over the past several years to urge action and accountability, to call for a third-party investigation and to demand that the denomination surrender confidential documents to investigators. She also served as an adviser for the Southern Baptist Convention’s Sexual Abuse Task Force, which was formed last year to respond to widespread allegations of abuse.

August Boto, the former general counsel for the Southern Baptist leadership branch that was investigated, called the work of advocates and survivors “a satanic scheme to completely distract us from evangelism.” He criticized Denhollander and another abuse survivor, saying that their “outcries” were evidence of the devil’s success.

When the Southern Baptist Convention held its annual meeting in Anaheim, Calif., last week, it voted overwhelmingly to implement the reforms suggested by the report, including forming a publicly available “ministry check” website that lists credibly accused abusers who have served in Southern Baptist churches and entities. It also approved a resolution that offered a formal apology to abuse survivors, mentioning some by name, and asked their forgiveness “for our failure to hold perpetrators of sexual abuse adequately accountable in our churches and institutions.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/19/opinion/southern-baptist-convention-report.html?referringSource=articleShare

When the lawyer for a church denounces reports of rape, etc. as a "satanic scheme" that should lend insight as to the nature and persistence of male domination in established churches, athletic programs, etc.

An Irish priest, taxed with fondling his altar boys, reportedly said: "Jasus, Murphy! It's not a sin. It's a fringe benefit!"

Chuck Naill
June 20th, 2022, 01:26 PM
Girls prey upon boys. Some have been called bot crazy. Make no mistake.

Chip
June 20th, 2022, 01:32 PM
Girls prey upon boys. Some have been called bot crazy. Make no mistake.

Clearly satanic.

Chuck Naill
June 20th, 2022, 01:41 PM
Girls prey upon boys. Some have been called bot crazy. Make no mistake.

Clearly satanic.

The Devil made her do it.

Empty_of_Clouds
June 20th, 2022, 02:34 PM
I appreciate the effort you made for the other readers here, Ether. I've recently had a rough battle with COVID, and I still have brain fog (virus still not cleared), and so I have to limit screentime and watching vids just makes me dizzy. The quotes you typed up for us here are intriguing.

The only thing that I would add is that the traditional definitions of gender and parenting also have to be reexamined. That might be half the problem: the old boxes no longer work (the old flaws have had their full consequences now that the full weight of culture no longer presses people to suppress their discontent).

Missed due to skimming. Wishing you a speedier recovery, Ted. The COVID bug scares me a lot. If I caught it I would likely end up as a statistic given my current health condition.

Chuck Naill
June 20th, 2022, 03:13 PM
I trust you will stay well, EOC.

Empty_of_Clouds
June 20th, 2022, 03:23 PM
Thanks, but I don't think my fate is any longer in my hands.

Lloyd
June 20th, 2022, 03:34 PM
Thanks, but I don't think my fate is any longer in my hands.
When you think that, it becomes true.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Empty_of_Clouds
June 20th, 2022, 03:50 PM
Age and infirmity are catching up to me.

Lloyd
June 20th, 2022, 03:57 PM
Age and infirmity are catching up to me.
You're not alone. I'm sorry for you, but, at least for me, some of the only things that help are levity and practicing kindness.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

TSherbs
June 20th, 2022, 04:41 PM
I appreciate the effort you made for the other readers here, Ether. I've recently had a rough battle with COVID, and I still have brain fog (virus still not cleared), and so I have to limit screentime and watching vids just makes me dizzy. The quotes you typed up for us here are intriguing.

The only thing that I would add is that the traditional definitions of gender and parenting also have to be reexamined. That might be half the problem: the old boxes no longer work (the old flaws have had their full consequences now that the full weight of culture no longer presses people to suppress their discontent).

Missed due to skimming. Wishing you a speedier recovery, Ted. The COVID bug scares me a lot. If I caught it I would likely end up as a statistic given my current health condition.

Thanks, EoC. I am doing better now. That sucked. Worst flu I have had in decades. My wife had it too, mostly like a head cold. Not me. Mine was in my chest and stomach, and I spent three nights on the linoleum floor in the bathroom.

Lloyd
June 20th, 2022, 04:45 PM
I appreciate the effort you made for the other readers here, Ether. I've recently had a rough battle with COVID, and I still have brain fog (virus still not cleared), and so I have to limit screentime and watching vids just makes me dizzy. The quotes you typed up for us here are intriguing.

The only thing that I would add is that the traditional definitions of gender and parenting also have to be reexamined. That might be half the problem: the old boxes no longer work (the old flaws have had their full consequences now that the full weight of culture no longer presses people to suppress their discontent).

Missed due to skimming. Wishing you a speedier recovery, Ted. The COVID bug scares me a lot. If I caught it I would likely end up as a statistic given my current health condition.

Thanks, EoC. I am doing better now. That sucked. Worst flu I have had in decades. My wife had it too, mostly like a head cold. Not me. Mine was in my chest and stomach, and I spent three nights on the linoleum floor in the bathroom.
Time for a remodel.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Chip
June 20th, 2022, 10:35 PM
With role models (fathers) such as Greitens, it's a wonder Republican/white supremacist/neo-nazi youth don't shoot up everything.

Nothing like a steady diet of war movies, cop shows, shooter games, and FOX News to foster insanely aggressive impulses.

In Ad, Shotgun-Toting Greitens Asks Voters to Go ‘RINO Hunting’

A right-wing Senate candidate accompanies a squad of heavily armed men as they storm a home looking for ‘Republicans in name only.’
Alan Feuer
June 20, 2022

https://i.imgur.com/9K5fXt4.jpg

Eric Greitens, a Republican candidate for the United States Senate in Missouri, released a violent new political advertisement on Monday showing himself racking a shotgun and accompanying a team of men armed with assault rifles as they stormed — SWAT team-style — into a home in search of “RINOs,” or Republicans in name only.

“Join the MAGA crew,” Mr. Greitens, a former Navy SEAL, declares in the ad. “Get a RINO hunting permit. There’s no bagging limit, no tagging limit, and it doesn’t expire until we save our country.”

The ad by Mr. Greitens was just the latest but perhaps most menacing in a long line of Republican campaign ads featuring firearms and seeking to equate hard-core conservatism with the use of deadly weapons.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/20/us/politics/eric-greitens-rino-ad.html?referringSource=articleShare

TSherbs
June 21st, 2022, 05:49 AM
Looks like he got the attention he wanted, too.

dneal
June 21st, 2022, 08:29 AM
Not sure how Eric Greitens fits into this topic (seems a better fit for In Partibus Infidelium), but hopefully this kills off his political aspirations. The primary is on August 2nd. It'll be interesting what the next iteration of polling shows.

TFarnon
July 2nd, 2022, 04:54 AM
When I see visuals like the Greitens ad, I think: "You wouldn't last long in Belfast, would ye now?" That room is just begging to be booby-trapped.

TSherbs
July 2nd, 2022, 09:34 AM
Yeah, that dude is just a poseur.

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Chuck Naill
July 2nd, 2022, 09:56 AM
He’s a former Navy lieutenant commander.
So much for thanking you for serving.

TSherbs
July 2nd, 2022, 10:22 AM
He’s a former Navy lieutenant commander.
So much for thanking you for serving.Not in the ad, he isn't. He's a poseur, playing off his military background and the images of guns to pretend to be tough on liberals. He's a comic fraud in that ad.

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TSherbs
July 2nd, 2022, 10:23 AM
It's exactly what's wrong with stupid, jingoistic political ads that trade on toxic stereotypes of masculinity.

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Chuck Naill
July 2nd, 2022, 03:10 PM
He’s making $100k plus per year off the American ta payer.

Chip
July 2nd, 2022, 11:01 PM
He’s making $100k plus per year off the American ta payer.

I don't think he holds any public office at present.

Or is that his Navy Seal pension?

Chip
July 5th, 2022, 11:26 AM
This is definitely worth a look. I posted a c & p version and another was just posted on the gun law thread.

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/37282-The-American-Cowboy-Myth?p=370862#post370862

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/04/opinion/guns-america-western-mythology.html?referringSource=articleShare

TFarnon
July 8th, 2022, 01:18 PM
He may be a former Navy Lieutenant Commander, but why is he standing close enough to the other two guys in the photo that one grenade can take them all out? Okay, I also don't consider most officers "real" soldiers. For one thing, they don't get grubby enough and stinky enough.

Or is it only me who internalized that instruction, and does not like to be within grenade-fragment distance of anyone else, especially in a crowd? We don't talk about how jumpy I was at lunch on 9/11, nearly all the way across the country on a university campus. I wanted to just yell at the students to spread the hell out instead of clumping. That was when nobody really had any idea what was going on yet. I did yell at the TV footage from the Pentagon, where so many people were wandering, perhaps dazed but otherwise uninjured, as the MPs/SPs/Security yelled at them to get away from the building now because there was another plane coming in. Not that my yelling at the TV would do a damn bit of good.

Chip
July 8th, 2022, 03:40 PM
I have similar flashes from experience as a rock and ice climber, ski mountaineer, wildland firefighter, solo range rider, and wilderness ranger, as far as what seems like a dangerous situation. I'm really averse to crowds, especially when I'm boxed in on all sides. I also get nervous when I'm in a spot with no escape route. Quite often, I can sense an accident about to happen. Not being able to avoid it makes me feel awful.

The advantage, I guess, was being able to work in wild and remote places, often alone, for more than thirty years, with only one lost-time accident. I also managed to keep my field crews and assistants safe and happy. There was a Harvard guy who tried to slice cheese for his lunch on his open palm: ouch!!!!

TSherbs
July 8th, 2022, 04:42 PM
That ad to me was just total bullshit macho farce. It didn't trigger anything in me but scorn (obviously).

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Chuck Naill
July 9th, 2022, 09:22 AM
Ads appeal to our more least selves if we allow. For me the ad says “you are so stupid that I think this will appeal to you and you’re going to vote for me”.

Chip
July 10th, 2022, 11:09 PM
It follows the playbook for aspiring authoritarian and fascist leaders: know what your prospective followers fear and hate.

Identify the common enemy (Jews, Blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, RINOs).

Propose righteous violence as a solution.

TSherbs
July 11th, 2022, 06:49 AM
Here, an opinion piece about male anxiety over the (century-long) rising empowerment of women...sparked by a Tucker Carlson comment that actually has some truth in it!

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/tucker-carlson-president-highland-park-comments-disqualify-rcna37317

Niner
July 11th, 2022, 08:20 PM
He may be a former Navy Lieutenant Commander, but why is he standing close enough to the other two guys in the photo that one grenade can take them all out? Okay, I also don't consider most officers "real" soldiers. For one thing, they don't get grubby enough and stinky enough.

Or is it only me who internalized that instruction, and does not like to be within grenade-fragment distance of anyone else, especially in a crowd? We don't talk about how jumpy I was at lunch on 9/11, nearly all the way across the country on a university campus. I wanted to just yell at the students to spread the hell out instead of clumping. That was when nobody really had any idea what was going on yet. I did yell at the TV footage from the Pentagon, where so many people were wandering, perhaps dazed but otherwise uninjured, as the MPs/SPs/Security yelled at them to get away from the building now because there was another plane coming in. Not that my yelling at the TV would do a damn bit of good.

I know next to nothing about the man. If everyone says he's a SEAL O veteran, okay, I believe it. If he was really on a team, he knows much about grenades. And stinking.

Considering what he's wearing in the photo, what everyone else is doing, and that he's at port arms with a two point sling draping about to his knees, I'd say the photo isn't from a training video.

You're right about grenades, though. Everyone in the video is so bunched up that they could all be casualties from one grenade. Sometimes that happens indoors. One must be careful about such things. There are even techniques taught about that.

I get it about conditioned response, too. Some veterans have some very engrained conditioned responses. It sometimes happens in other lines of work. The nature of a few of the military specialties makes the engraining more likely for veterans with those specialties than for the average veteran or civilian.

Niner
July 11th, 2022, 08:24 PM
He’s a former Navy lieutenant commander.
So much for thanking you for serving.Not in the ad, he isn't. He's a poseur, playing off his military background and the images of guns to pretend to be tough on liberals. He's a comic fraud in that ad.

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It's my understanding that "Poser" and "Walt" have very specific negative meanings in the military and veteran communities, especially regarding one not having the military experience or military qualifications one claims to have. I believe that the terms have no other meanings in those communities, except regarding posing as for a portrait or literally being named "Walt".

Niner
July 11th, 2022, 08:25 PM
In case anyone wonders, I think the ad is very silly, to put it nicely.

Chip
July 11th, 2022, 11:45 PM
What if he was urging armed followers to hunt down and kill Jews?

Still just silly?

TSherbs
July 12th, 2022, 04:21 AM
What if he was urging armed followers to hunt down and kill Jews?

Still just silly?Especially under the topic of this thread.

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Chuck Naill
July 12th, 2022, 05:43 AM
In case anyone wonders, I think the ad is very silly, to put it nicely.

Consider his audience or intended base and it will appear as an appropriate strategy.

Niner
July 12th, 2022, 09:52 AM
What if he was urging armed followers to hunt down and kill Jews?

Still just silly?Especially under the topic of this thread.

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There's no reason to suspect that I would characterize Jew-killing as silly. I object to taking loyalty oaths, but in this instance I'll break a general rule of mine and do so. I very strongly condemn the killing Jews when the killing is based upon their being Jews. Otherwise, I object to their killing just as I object to the killing of those who are not Jews.

In the nicest terms I can think of, the ad is possibly merely silly. The candidate's ad might be frat boy prankishness. "F yeah! We'll smoke those MF's in the election! Lock 'n' load! Woo-hoo!" Think of the frat in question. Door-kicking, beer-drinking lead slingers.

TSherbs
July 12th, 2022, 10:01 AM
What if he was urging armed followers to hunt down and kill Jews?

Still just silly?Especially under the topic of this thread.

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There's no reason to suspect that I would characterize Jew-killing as silly. I object to taking loyalty oaths, but in this instance I'll break a general rule of mine and do so. I very strongly condemn the killing Jews when the killing is based upon their being Jews. Otherwise, I object to their killing just as I object to the killing of those who are not Jews.

In the nicest terms I can think of, the ad is possibly merely silly. The candidate's ad might be frat boy prankishness. "F yeah! We'll smoke those MF's in the election! Lock 'n' load! Woo-hoo!" Think of the frat in question. Door-kicking, beer-drinking lead slingers.I don't disagree, except that these memes and ideas have more tragic consequences when actually carried out. Not "silly," but tragic and traumatizing.

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dneal
July 12th, 2022, 11:18 AM
What if he was urging armed followers to hunt down and kill Jews?

Still just silly?Especially under the topic of this thread.

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There's no reason to suspect that I would characterize Jew-killing as silly. I object to taking loyalty oaths, but in this instance I'll break a general rule of mine and do so. I very strongly condemn the killing Jews when the killing is based upon their being Jews. Otherwise, I object to their killing just as I object to the killing of those who are not Jews.

In the nicest terms I can think of, the ad is possibly merely silly. The candidate's ad might be frat boy prankishness. "F yeah! We'll smoke those MF's in the election! Lock 'n' load! Woo-hoo!" Think of the frat in question. Door-kicking, beer-drinking lead slingers.I don't disagree, except that these memes and ideas have more tragic consequences when actually carried out. Not "silly," but tragic and traumatizing.

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Concur. See, you and I can agree on rational points.

TSherbs
July 12th, 2022, 11:35 AM
What if he was urging armed followers to hunt down and kill Jews?

Still just silly?Especially under the topic of this thread.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

There's no reason to suspect that I would characterize Jew-killing as silly. I object to taking loyalty oaths, but in this instance I'll break a general rule of mine and do so. I very strongly condemn the killing Jews when the killing is based upon their being Jews. Otherwise, I object to their killing just as I object to the killing of those who are not Jews.

In the nicest terms I can think of, the ad is possibly merely silly. The candidate's ad might be frat boy prankishness. "F yeah! We'll smoke those MF's in the election! Lock 'n' load! Woo-hoo!" Think of the frat in question. Door-kicking, beer-drinking lead slingers.I don't disagree, except that these memes and ideas have more tragic consequences when actually carried out. Not "silly," but tragic and traumatizing.

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Concur. See, you and I can agree on rational points.I don't give a fuck what you think of my posts

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dneal
July 12th, 2022, 11:42 AM
What if he was urging armed followers to hunt down and kill Jews?

Still just silly?Especially under the topic of this thread.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

There's no reason to suspect that I would characterize Jew-killing as silly. I object to taking loyalty oaths, but in this instance I'll break a general rule of mine and do so. I very strongly condemn the killing Jews when the killing is based upon their being Jews. Otherwise, I object to their killing just as I object to the killing of those who are not Jews.

In the nicest terms I can think of, the ad is possibly merely silly. The candidate's ad might be frat boy prankishness. "F yeah! We'll smoke those MF's in the election! Lock 'n' load! Woo-hoo!" Think of the frat in question. Door-kicking, beer-drinking lead slingers.I don't disagree, except that these memes and ideas have more tragic consequences when actually carried out. Not "silly," but tragic and traumatizing.

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Concur. See, you and I can agree on rational points.I don't give a fuck what you think of my posts

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Well, at least you got a "fuck" thrown in there.

There was nothing in my reply that earned that response. I agree with you and Niner, simply said so, and that it's evidence that we can agree.

I have no idea why a person as angry as you seem to be bothers with the internet. If anything, it tends to exacerbate the problem. You said you're 60 or so. Is this the best emotional control a person of your age can exhibit?

The world is turning into a bunch of "fuck you" Karens/Kens...

Chip
July 12th, 2022, 12:25 PM
https://i.imgur.com/DbWja6c.jpg

TSherbs
July 12th, 2022, 12:29 PM
The world is turning into a bunch of "fuck you" Karens/Kens...

This is just me telling you: you're full of shit.



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TSherbs
July 12th, 2022, 12:56 PM
https://i.imgur.com/DbWja6c.jpghaha

I'm good, not angry at all. Just determined.

Now, the hearings on TV have me worked up for sure! :)



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Chuck Naill
July 12th, 2022, 06:09 PM
The world is turning into a bunch of "fuck you" Karens/Kens...

This is just me telling you: you're full of shit.



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You should have already known. Really, Ted???

TSherbs
July 12th, 2022, 06:13 PM
The world is turning into a bunch of "fuck you" Karens/Kens...

This is just me telling you: you're full of shit.



Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

You should have already known. Really, Ted???

really

Chuck Naill
July 13th, 2022, 05:44 AM
The world is turning into a bunch of "fuck you" Karens/Kens...

This is just me telling you: you're full of shit.



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You should have already known. Really, Ted???

really

Yes.

TSherbs
July 13th, 2022, 12:10 PM
yes

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TSherbs
July 27th, 2022, 04:48 PM
This kind of marketing and promotion doesn't help boys figure out, in a healthy way, what it means to be a "man":

AP article on increased gun sales and marketing tactics for "men":

https://apnews.com/article/gun-manufacturers-ar-15-461e6729bef5ef5f8af0f128fbfc40be

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Chip
July 27th, 2022, 05:12 PM
In an editorial, the Kansas City Star noted that Josh Hawley will soon publish a book entitled Manhood: The Masculine Virtues America Needs, but said people watching the hearing “didn’t see much virile bravado as he ran from the mob”.

With examples such as Donald Trump, Matt Gaetz, and "Dash" Hawley, it's a wonder any boy with Republican parents can grow up sane.

TSherbs
July 27th, 2022, 05:31 PM
In an editorial, the Kansas City Star noted that Josh Hawley will soon publish a book entitled Manhood: The Masculine Virtues America Needs, but said people watching the hearing “didn’t see much virile bravado as he ran from the mob”.

With examples such as Donald Trump, Matt Gaetz, and "Dash" Hawley, it's a wonder any boy with Republican parents can grow up sane.Some woman should punch Hawley in the face and knock him out. He's a fraud.

Figuratively, of course. ;)

Chip
July 28th, 2022, 11:08 PM
Funny how the "boy crisis" whiners don't give a damn about Black boys.

Chuck Naill
July 31st, 2022, 11:19 AM
Funny how the "boy crisis" whiners don't give a damn about Black boys.

How many black boys are living with you and you are feeding, Chip?

Chip
July 31st, 2022, 01:15 PM
You said you were putting me on ignore.

So please do it and stop posting these dumb-ass accusations.

Chuck Naill
July 31st, 2022, 01:31 PM
You said you were putting me on ignore.

So please do it and stop posting these dumb-ass accusations.

You are a poser or pretender. You say you care but don't do anything constructive or practical to help.