The Four Phases of Retirement

[dneal]

Ok, this should be non-contentious. It could go in the lounge, but I'll put it here instead as a gesture of positivity.

Google must be spying on me, because this was recommended in the "play next" section of YouTube. I retired 2 1/2 years ago. My older brother retired a couple of years before that. My uncle just retired within the last year and a former coworker retired in April.

TSherbs said he is retiring this year, so maybe he finds this helpful. I assume there are several on here who have also been through this process, and have variables around age and income and whatnot... and the lessons learned associated with that. Most all of us will go through this at some point.

He says there are four phases.

I. The "Vacation Phase".
- you get to do what you want.
- you have freedom

II. Loss and Lost
- "Big 5": Routine, Identity, Relationships, Purpose, Power
- 3D's: Divorce, depression, decline

III. Trial and Error
- How to make life meaningful again?

IV. Reinvent and Rewire
- What's my purpose?
- How do I squeeze the juice out of retirement?
- Meaningful and rewarding (old coots)

The guy takes a minute or two to get going. You can skip ahead to the 3 minute mark or so.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMHMOQ_054U

[dneal]

For me the process went something like this:

Phase I: I definitely enjoyed the "vacation" feeling. The weird thing for me was a sense that I was on vacation and I had to go back to work at some point. I maintained that "I ain't doing shit unless I have to" attitude for a month or two.

Phase II:
- "Big 5" I didn't miss most of that. Didn't miss routine, didn't miss purpose, didn't miss power (which to me is responsibility). I'm secure in my identity. I really missed the relationships. The camaraderie of the environment.

- 3 D's: Wife and I are in this for the long haul, so divorce wasn't an issue or possibility. I could see how some relationships could end up that way though... finding out you don't really like each other, or getting underfoot so to speak. There was some adjustment, mainly figuring out that we each still needed our personal time. We solved that with personal spaces and that it's ok. Depression was a non-issue for me. Decline is a concern as part of aging, but actually I've had more time to get healthy. Not sitting in an office, not working 10-12 hours a day, and not having deadlines or responsibility is a lot of stress relieved leading to just feeling better all around.

Phase III: I got to this pretty quick. I've considered what I "could" do. Lots of folks ask if I'll get a different job. I entertain the idea periodically, and have lots of standing offers (many in Europe, and it would be fun to live there again). I romanticize the idea, and then think of the stress. Lack of stress is worth a lot of money.

I bought a house that needs updated and 6 acres that were neglected somewhat. That was with the intent of something to keep me busy. I cleared an acre of about 35 trees, attacked 400' of overgrown fence line and some other areas with a vengeance the first year, but at some point realized it doesn't all have to be done right now. I do a little every day, and enjoy it.

Phase IV: My purpose has always been along the line of Seneca's "There's no cure for life or death except to enjoy the interval". I didn't have a goal of being a general when I was working (some folks do, some make it, and most are disappointed). I can find every day meaningful and rewarding.

I suppose I'm somewhere between the speaker's phase III and IV (with a little phase I mixed in). There are a lot of things I can do, and maybe I'll try them (Ph III). I'll take advantage of $50/credit hour state university benefits maybe. I'll get around to writing some articles for professional journals. Right now I'm happy milling around the house with stuff that can be done. I go to my brother's and my uncle's and help them, and they come over here and help me. We socialize and fill that "relationships" hole, and expand our network of friends as we meet each other's circle of friends.

Mainly I'm enjoying having the time to learn. Perfecting sourdough, planning a small orchard. Cultivating an environment with native plants and wildlife. Also Seneca: "No man became wise by chance".

[dneal]

[22.0912-0913/54.16.6]

archive search

data retrieved from mid 20th century ce indicates correlation of loss of engagement with early death post retirement

data retrieved from current time space indicates that maintaining engagement post lifetime of work-related engagement key to successful ageing post retirement

data is promising not strong

consensus has not been built


There's an Army joke about Sergeants Major dying in the 1st year of retirement (but there's truth to the joke...)

I had a guy who worked for me in Germany. I knew he was older, but I guessed late 60's. I asked him "when did you get to Germany?"

I didn't expect him to say: "July '45". He was in his early 80's. A 19 year old kid from Brooklyn married a German girl and spent the rest of his life there, working for the U.S. DOD. Many fun and funny stories...

One day he came to work a little bummed. His neighbor died, and the reality of mortality was made present. I asked what his neighbor did. What his purpose was. Essentially, he didn't have one. He just existed.

It can be many things, but purpose is important.

[Chuck Naill]

I agree purpose is important if not essential. Relevance in they purpose also life giving. My personal retirement was planned and executed.

Retirement and others transitions have been life giving. Trying to live in the moment a challenge.

David Brooks introduced a life hack quote that said not to try to describe your life, but to focus on the next three years. I hope to adopt this strategy.

[kazoolaw]

June was too soon, but 12/31/22, my retirement date, approaches.
Appreciate sharing the video, but more so your experiences. I'm too contrary to think that things move sequentially through the phases, so it's good to read dneal's experience.
Funny how often people find things they're just sure I should do as soon as I retire.
When I was new to my profession many men who retired were miserable.
Over the years that's changed greatly. A former client, now a good friend was a former tank commander, then a hard driving labor lawyer who always had a host of entrepreneurial projects on the side. In retirement, heis joyful man, quick to laugh, and to extend his care and support in troubled times.
I'd be very interested in hearing more about orchards, fencelines, finding and living purposefully.
Maybe start an old coots advice booth.

[Chuck Naill]

Learn to live in the moment (if you don't already) and don't pass up opportunities to do good. The most disappointing thing to see is an old man who is also filled with grievances toward younger generations and their own personal disappointments over "woulda, coulda, shoulda".

[dneal]

June was too soon, but 12/31/22, my retirement date, approaches.
Appreciate sharing the video, but more so your experiences. I'm too contrary to think that things move sequentially through the phases, so it's good to read dneal's experience.
Funny how often people find things they're just sure I should do as soon as I retire.
When I was new to my profession many men who retired were miserable.
Over the years that's changed greatly. A former client, now a good friend was a former tank commander, then a hard driving labor lawyer who always had a host of entrepreneurial projects on the side. In retirement, heis joyful man, quick to laugh, and to extend his care and support in troubled times.
I'd be very interested in hearing more about orchards, fencelines, finding and living purposefully.
Maybe start an old coots advice booth.



I mentioned earlier that at some point I realized I don't have to get everything done right now. I've kind of worked it into a 5 year plan at this point. Major things to accomplish are:

Re-grade the ground between the house and the shop. It looks like the excavator made two piles when digging the shop foundation, let grass grow over them and planted a tree on one. I finally convinced the wife the tree was dying (every tree planted seems to have not had the wire root basket removed...). We cut it down, dug up the stump, but it's been too dry (ground too hard) to grade with my Kubota.

Clear the fencerow along the driveway. I'm getting ready to start that. In addition to the sumac and saplings, it's overgrown with wild grapes, Virginia creeper and poison ivy; which is strangling out the large trees that will be left.

Rebuild the retaining wall behind the house (about 200' long and 4' high - a lot of blocks...)

Clear the saplings and lower branches of cedars between the house and the pond, so the missus can better see the water from the porch.

Plant some fruit trees in the "upper pasture" (really just a clear acre away from the house).

Get one of those geodesic greenhouses.

I've got two patio doors I want to replace with sliders, a deck to rebuild, two bathrooms to remodel and some trim-work to finish - but covid and the stupid material prices that I refuse to pay put that on hold ($12 for a $3 2x4? puhleeze...). Everything is functional, and just needs updated. Prices are coming back down, and I've got lots of time.

I got a LinkedIn account some years ago, with the prompting of a friend; and get the weekly "here's a job" email. I look at them and imagine the positives, but then think of the negatives. I've decided that the lack of stress is worth a lot of money. I won't own a beach house in the Bahamas or a Ferrari, but my life is simple and I get by quite comfortably.

I consume a lot of information about all sorts of things, and ponder the implications. It's good mental exercise (which is supposed to be beneficial later in life), and I want to write it down in some sort of essay/blog/substack format; but it still feels like work, so I don't. One of the latest came from a LinkedIn opening for a senior leadership coordinator sort of job, who would work for the VP of leadership. I've got lots of opinions on that, the first of which is that the VP of leadership probably needs fired. I get distracted and would rather practice a new guitar study, cook a pot of soup, or sit on the porch and watch nature.

I did finally get around to burning an enormous brush pile - probably 40'x20', and 9' high. It had sat there since spring, got named "the rabbit mansion" because they went to it immediately to breed all summer. I waited for that to be over, but it's been really dry and I just recently had an opportunity to burn it.

[dneal]

I'm often asked how I'm finding retirement, and my reply is "life is like a closet full of perfect Saturdays".

It could be sitting around in a robe like the Big Lebowski sipping White Russians (metaphorically - I don't drink). It could be working hard outside in the crisp fall air. Taking the wife out to dinner or the art museum. Mowing the yard or straightening up a workbench and listening to a podcast. It could be reading a book and smoking a cigar.

I wake up, look outside, and then browse through my "closet of perfect Saturdays", and pick one (or two, or three).

[TSherbs]

I'm often asked how I'm finding retirement, and my reply is "life is like a closet full of perfect Saturdays".

It could be sitting around in a robe like the Big Lebowski sipping White Russians (metaphorically - I don't drink). It could be working hard outside in the crisp fall air. Taking the wife out to dinner or the art museum. Mowing the yard or straightening up a workbench and listening to a podcast. It could be reading a book and smoking a cigar.

I wake up, look outside, and then browse through my "closet of perfect Saturdays", and pick one (or two, or three).

nice, I share sentiment, except for the "perfect" part. I am still dealing some some bullshit daily, although no longer part of my former employment...

Are you done with active parentling? I can't remember if you have ever mentioned having children....

[dneal]

I have a 20-something son who experiences the challenges typical of his gender, age, and generation.

"Perfect" is of course subjective, but that only means it's an issue of attitude toward circumstances.

[TSherbs]

I have called my sense of free time "luxurious."

[TSherbs]

June was too soon, but 12/31/22, my retirement date, approaches.
Appreciate sharing the video, but more so your experiences. I'm too contrary to think that things move sequentially through the phases, so it's good to read dneal's experience.
Funny how often people find things they're just sure I should do as soon as I retire.
When I was new to my profession many men who retired were miserable.
Over the years that's changed greatly. A former client, now a good friend was a former tank commander, then a hard driving labor lawyer who always had a host of entrepreneurial projects on the side. In retirement, heis joyful man, quick to laugh, and to extend his care and support in troubled times.
I'd be very interested in hearing more about orchards, fencelines, finding and living purposefully.
Maybe start an old coots advice booth.



Good luck with your transition....but in response to your last sentence, I thought of this passage from Thoreau, Walden:


There is no odor so bad as that which arises from goodness tainted. It is human, it is divine, carrion. If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life, as from that dry and parching wind of the African deserts called the simoom, which fills the mouth and nose and ears and eyes with dust till you are suffocated, for fear that I should get some of his good done to me, - some of its virus mingled with my blood. No, -in this case I would rather suffer evil the natural way.

[kazoolaw]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shared.com%2Fcontent%2Fimages %2F2018%2F11%2FJHXQXWNU35DPDBLTGKKKB2BC6E-1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=7957e6b8be2ffda21b2523213a7985d8ebd041fb0a35d5 cfd71d6cbe92b09290&ipo=images

Sobering thought, but I'm not that serious about it.

[Chuck Naill]

Is that you, Kaz?

[TSherbs]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shared.com%2Fcontent%2Fimages %2F2018%2F11%2FJHXQXWNU35DPDBLTGKKKB2BC6E-1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=7957e6b8be2ffda21b2523213a7985d8ebd041fb0a35d5 cfd71d6cbe92b09290&ipo=images

Sobering thought, but I'm not that serious about it.


Thoreau was being wry, too. And sober, no doubt.

[Chuck Naill]

Old men should have wisdom instead of $80k pickup trucks .

[TSherbs]

Old men should have wisdom instead of $80k pickup trucks .

What is this about? Are you chastizing someone for owning a nice pick-up truck??

[Bold2013]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shared.com%2Fcontent%2Fimages %2F2018%2F11%2FJHXQXWNU35DPDBLTGKKKB2BC6E-1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=7957e6b8be2ffda21b2523213a7985d8ebd041fb0a35d5 cfd71d6cbe92b09290&ipo=images

Sobering thought, but I'm not that serious about it.


I would take advice from retired you.

[Chuck Naill]

Fuck off , Ted! Lol!

[kazoolaw]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shared.com%2Fcontent%2Fimages %2F2018%2F11%2FJHXQXWNU35DPDBLTGKKKB2BC6E-1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=7957e6b8be2ffda21b2523213a7985d8ebd041fb0a35d5 cfd71d6cbe92b09290&ipo=images

Sobering thought, but I'm not that serious about it.


Thoreau was being wry, too. And sober, no doubt.

May have been my mood, but "odor" "tainted" and "carrion" kind of soured me on the quote.
I'll give it another shot. Don't see "wry" around much these days.

[kazoolaw]

Bold2013-
You're very kind.
You'll be stuck getting what you pay for.

[TSherbs]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shared.com%2Fcontent%2Fimages %2F2018%2F11%2FJHXQXWNU35DPDBLTGKKKB2BC6E-1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=7957e6b8be2ffda21b2523213a7985d8ebd041fb0a35d5 cfd71d6cbe92b09290&ipo=images

Sobering thought, but I'm not that serious about it.


Thoreau was being wry, too. And sober, no doubt.

May have been my mood, but "odor" "tainted" and "carrion" kind of soured me on the quote.
I'll give it another shot. Don't see "wry" around much these days.


He was curmudgeonly about his independence from advice. He also wrote that no one over 30 ever had anything good to say (he was 37 when he published that). He was speaking generally, as I was using it (not about you).

[Chip]

Since I looked for outdoor work that I really enjoyed, and also wrote and edited— equally absorbing— I didn't really experience the usual retirement thing: being done with a long confinement to a desk under close supervision.

My retreat from outdoor fieldwork has coincided with the aging process: I can no longer do the sort of risky, strenuous jobs that delighted me. I float the local river, walk the dog, cultivate the garden, refine my skill at cookery, etc. Designed and built a solar thermal mass greenhouse in 2009, and (at 8000 ft. in the Rockies) we eat ripe tomatoes year-round.

https://i.imgur.com/9qdLxP1.jpg

While I had some success at writing, it was never a great source of income, and I got worn out by the constant need for self-promotion and hustling. So– I started writing for fun— no agents, no contracts, no publishers, no publicists, no money involved— and posting stuff on the web under a pseudonym, short novels and stories, for thousands of readers. I always wanted to try mysteries, and have written four. Also a sci-fi novel and heaps of short stories. So I retired from the glamorous world of commercial publishing, but not from writing.

In all, a pretty good life, with more to come.

[TSherbs]

What's the night time temp at your place right now?

[dneal]

RE: Greenhouses.

I first ran across this guy: a retired postman in northwestern Nebraska that manages to grow oranges year round (http://www.citrusinthesnow.com/index.html).

His thermal mass design is pretty ingenious, and the basis for a lot of versions available commercially now. I have a backhoe for my tractor, so the digging isn't a problem; but I don't like that it requires electricity to move the air through the pipes and plenum.

The one I'm considering is a geodesic design which uses water/solar as a thermal mass. Link (https://growingspaces.com)

[Bold2013]

RE: Greenhouses.

I first ran across this guy: a retired postman in northwestern Nebraska that manages to grow oranges year round (http://www.citrusinthesnow.com/index.html).

His thermal mass design is pretty ingenious, and the basis for a lot of versions available commercially now. I have a backhoe for my tractor, so the digging isn't a problem; but I don't like that it requires electricity to move the air through the pipes and plenum.

The one I'm considering is a geodesic design which uses water/solar as a thermal mass. Link (https://growingspaces.com)

Thanks.

I’m hoping to start a homestead in the next decade.

[Chip]

What's the night time temp at your place right now?

Last night it was 20°F. The night before, -8°F. Before that -12°F. Lowest I've seen was -40°F. I lost a few tomatoes to air leaks.

It's small, 12'x12', so the thermal mass is limited. I dug below the frost line (about 1 m.) and laid 2" foamboard and reflectix bubble insulation. The footers were poured in foam-insulated forms. Then a layer of gravel for drainage and coarse sand. The radiant tubing (PEX) was laid out on a wire grid, then covered with more sand.

https://i.imgur.com/dJsNvLX.jpg

I found a salvage flat plate collector, mounted it for low winter sun, and plumbed a loop with PEX that runs through a 400 gal. stock tank under the floor, wrapped and topped with insulation.

https://i.imgur.com/GrWNwFo.jpg

A 20W PV panel drives a DC pump, pushing a 50% glycol mix through the coils. A second AC pump circulates the warm water from the tank (it can reach 120°F) through the PEX tubing under the floor. (Water is much more efficient for storing and circulating heat than air.) Coupling the PV panel to the DC pump means that when there's enough sun to heat the flat-plate collector, the pump starts working. When it clouds up or the sun is gone, the pump shuts off.

https://i.imgur.com/D4rVqSH.jpg

Aside from the beds, the floor is black pavers with a black rubber mat over the wood covering the stock tank. I mounted four big black tanks on the south-facing wall for more passive thermal mass, and a water supply for the plants. They get filled with a garden hose (no plumbing to freeze.)

https://i.imgur.com/UcAnLmF.jpg

The walls are 3-layer polycarbonate. The roof is 6-layer (R 3.8). When it's warm, the clerestory vents open automatically as do the low corner vents. When it's really hot, I use a small AC fan.

https://i.imgur.com/T7KVD8Z.jpg

There are four quartz radiant lamps (from a patio heater) mounted on the ceiling to warm the foliage. For really low temps, I have a small electric heater on a separate breaker, and one of those little propane Buddy heaters in case the electricity blinks out.

https://i.imgur.com/zFadxIs.jpg

[TSherbs]

Impressive. Way beyond my DIY skills.

[Chuck Naill]

And nothing to do with retirement….😂

[dneal]

Cool setup. I’ve thought about incorporating a rocket mass heater for winter temps.

[Chip]

Being retired means I have the slack to enjoy the greenhouse and other pursuits, without getting up early to finish the chores and then roaring off to the day job.

Besides a good grasp of applied physics, the key to building a greenhouse is to start with your local climate. While it can get really cold here, it's also sunny: a dependable source of energy. The trick is to catch and store it. It's also windy, so I stick-built the frame, with a 12" ridge, to carry the snowload. Besides the heavy-duty frame, there are strap braces to keep it from racking with wind pressure (which wrecks those lightweight aluminum-framed kits around here.) The clerestory roof vents are aligned with the prevailing summer breeze, which draws the hot air out. Knowing the place, I was able to imagine what might work best.

It wouldn't be good in Ireland, too cloudy and wet. In Sitka, people build greenhouses mostly to keep the rain off. So you have to start with your conditions.

One of my aims was to make it as passive and self-regulating as possible: the coupling of the DC pump and collector, thermal pistons to open and close vents, a thermostat for the radiant ceiling heat, etc. So I don't have to dash out several times a day (and at midnight) to adjust things, or worry about spending the day in town.

If you've plenty of fuel (a woodlot?) a rocket mass setup could work, with a water heatsink for storage and a circulation pump or two on thermostats. Figuring out a good way of storing and distributing the heat would mean you didn't have to stoke the firebox constantly.

Obviously, this sort of problem-solving fascinates me.

[dneal]

Mid-Missouri here, which means a month of 100+ degree days (ventilation a must), and a month of single digits and maybe a week of below 0 (ambient temps). Everything else is manageable, but I also want it to be passive and self-regulating.

I've got plenty of wood, especially for a rocket mass heater, just from old oaks dropping limbs. I've thought about building one in the crawlspace, using the foundation vents for intake and exhaust. That's a lot of cob to haul through a hatch in the floor though.

For those interested, here's a pic with rough boundaries. Terrain slopes to the east-northeast. Fruit trees will go in the southwest corner. I've just got to figure out where to put the greenhouse. If it goes in the same area as the fruit trees (to maximize sunlight), I can't do anything electric (so the citrus in the snow guy's plan is out). The geodesic design is naturally wind resistant, and has a small solar panel for summer venting.

73586

[Bold2013]

Mid-Missouri here, which means a month of 100+ degree days (ventilation a must), and a month of single digits and maybe a week of below 0 (ambient temps). Everything else is manageable, but I also want it to be passive and self-regulating.

I've got plenty of wood, especially for a rocket mass heater, just from old oaks dropping limbs. I've thought about building one in the crawlspace, using the foundation vents for intake and exhaust. That's a lot of cob to haul through a hatch in the floor though.

For those interested, here's a pic with rough boundaries. Terrain slopes to the east-northeast. Fruit trees will go in the southwest corner. I've just got to figure out where to put the greenhouse. If it goes in the same area as the fruit trees (to maximize sunlight), I can't do anything electric (so the citrus in the snow guy's plan is out). The geodesic design is naturally wind resistant, and has a small solar panel for summer venting.

73586

That’s a nice looking pond between you and the neighbors.

[dneal]

That’s a nice looking pond between you and the neighbors.

Thanks. It's a separate acre parcel each of us own a portion of. Its got catfish, bass, sunperch and bluegill.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Everything else is manageable, but I also want it to be passive and self-regulating.

How do you calculate the carbon-cost of building such a structure, and how long does it have to be up before that cost is net-neutral?

[kazoolaw]

Chip and dneal-
You design and construction skills are very impressive.
I've never sawn a straight line, made a square corner, or hung a level stringer.
Well done!

[dneal]

73606

[Chuck Naill]

Everything else is manageable, but I also want it to be passive and self-regulating.

How do you calculate the carbon-cost of building such a structure, and how long does it have to be up before that cost is net-neutral?

As long as NASA is sending rockets into space and Russian is bombing Ukraine, I am not going to worry about carbon cost on my part, EOC.

[Chip]

How do you calculate the carbon-cost of building such a structure, and how long does it have to be up before that cost is net-neutral?

That would be a case-by-case reckoning. I used recycled and salvage material where possible: about half the lumber came from old sheds that I tore down (pulling all those nails–ugh!) The flat-plate solar collector came from a salvage yard. Gravel came from a pile left over from a highway re-surfacing– guess there wasn't enough to be worth loading. The polycarbonate sheathing, aluminum moldings, plastic tanks, pavers, plumbing, fixtures, and fastenings were new.

I kept track of the cost. Set against the price of fresh produce and the fuel for a weekly 60-mile roundtrip to the nearest store, it paid for itself in nine years (2018). Since we have only 45 frost-free days, outdoor gardening's a rough proposition and frost-sensitive plants such as tomatoes, beans, cukes, peppers, and herbs can't be grown. The carbon cost of growing them elsewhere and transporting them here is considerable, and the quality is often poor. I'm also not keen on industrial agriculture in general.

Potatoes do fine outdoors, thank heavens.

https://i.imgur.com/DSQnIXD.jpg

[TSherbs]

Lovely taters