That other place down…

[Sailor Kenshin]

…possibly forever?

Tried for a few hours this morning to get onto FPN. No go. Could they have disappeared? A pity if so. There was a ton of good content on there. And good people.

And this on the heels of another of my forums biting the dust, but at least this other one gave a week's warning.

Anyway,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1YbfCQmr4o

[Ron Z]

That is a large site, with a huge amount of data accumulated over the 17 years or so of it's existence. Before we assume that the plug has been pulled, a more reasonable option is that the site was overdue for some upgrades and maintenance.... like getting the classifieds fixed. That is going to take some time to do, and to test before it reappears. New Years eve, when most people are distracted, is a good time to do it.

[mana]

Returns a 500 error so could be a number of things. One thing is sure, it hasn't permanently "disappeared" or "gone", just a temporary outage. Too bad, I was kind of waiting for hanging out there now that I have some time to kill this Saturday (and an interesting recent purchase to chew the fat on). Oh well...there is here, reddit, and FB also (among others). :D

[724Seney]

That is a large site, with a huge amount of data accumulated over the 17 years or so of it's existence. Before we assume that the plug has been pulled, a more reasonable option is that the site was overdue for some upgrades and maintenance.... like getting the classifieds fixed. That is going to take some time to do, and to test before it reappears. New Years eve, when most people are distracted, is a good time to do it.

Given your administrative role on FPN, it would be nice if you would clarify whether you are speaking in some sort of an "official" capacity...... or if this is just your own personal speculation.

[Prettypenguin]

It was a bit of a surprise, as I have been extremely online over there lately. I hope it comes back soon in as good or better condition than it left us.

[Sailor Kenshin]

That is a large site, with a huge amount of data accumulated over the 17 years or so of it's existence. Before we assume that the plug has been pulled, a more reasonable option is that the site was overdue for some upgrades and maintenance.... like getting the classifieds fixed. That is going to take some time to do, and to test before it reappears. New Years eve, when most people are distracted, is a good time to do it.

Dishracted? *hic* Moi? 🍸🍺🥂🍻🍾

[TSherbs]

End of the year pause for clean-up/changes? Who's in the know....?

[junglejim]

It must have been the IG ink that Yazeh recently posted about at FPN. Some of it must have dripped down into the computer circuit boards and shorted something out. Remember what Mr. Scott from Star Trek said? "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." :)

Of course it could also be the yearly replacement of the hamsters powering everything.

Have a Safe New Years!

[Farmboy]

Probably the ads.

[Bold2013]

It must have been the IG ink that Yazeh recently posted about at FPN. Some of it must have dripped down into the computer circuit boards and shorted something out. Remember what Mr. Scott from Star Trek said? "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." :)

Of course it could also be the yearly replacement of the hamsters powering everything.

Have a Safe New Years!

I got IG all over my laptop keyboard and it still works (toddlers and fountain pens don’t mix).

[Misfit]

Good to see some fellow FPN members talking about this. I need FPN. It was my first pen forum, and I still like it best. No offense to this site. All fountain pen forums are good, in my opinion.

[Misfit]

@Prettypenguin: Are you PenguinCollector on FPN?

[Chrissy]

That is a large site, with a huge amount of data accumulated over the 17 years or so of it's existence. Before we assume that the plug has been pulled, a more reasonable option is that the site was overdue for some upgrades and maintenance.... like getting the classifieds fixed. That is going to take some time to do, and to test before it reappears. New Years eve, when most people are distracted, is a good time to do it.

Dishracted? *hic* Moi? 🍸🍺🥂🍻🍾
Happy New Year. Just made my first French 75 of 2023 🍾 🥂:)

[Misfit]

Maybe we could make a group here for FPN folks to find each other.

[Sailor Kenshin]

HAPPY NEW YEAR, everyone! 🥂🎊🎉

[PithyProlix]

Is there an active admin there? Last time I looked the admin (I don't believe there is more than one) had not logged in for months and the site seems to have been running on autopilot (hence, perhaps, the inaction on classified ads, for instance).

If this is a planned outage certainly there would/should have been an announcement.

[Yazeh]

It must have been the IG ink that Yazeh recently posted about at FPN. Some of it must have dripped down into the computer circuit boards and shorted something out. Remember what Mr. Scott from Star Trek said? "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." :)

Of course it could also be the yearly replacement of the hamsters powering everything.

Have a Safe New Years!

Haha! I missed that one! Brilliant! :rockon:

[FredRydr]

Elon Musk bought it.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Returns a 500 error so could be a number of things. One thing is sure, it hasn't permanently "disappeared" or "gone", just a temporary outage. Too bad, I was kind of waiting for hanging out there now that I have some time to kill this Saturday (and an interesting recent purchase to chew the fat on). Oh well...there is here, reddit, and FB also (among others). :D

No fakebook or reddit for me, but, if this is the same server as that other forum that went away, they, too, were experiencing similar problems before the owner shut it down.

[OCArt]

A pity the sole FPN administrator seems unwilling to be open to help. Oh well, it's his right I suppose. Happy New Year to all!

[724Seney]

A pity the sole FPN administrator seems unwilling to be open to help. Oh well, it's his right I suppose. Happy New Year to all!

Whether he wants help or not is entirely up to him but with the number of members who frequent the site I think it is downright rude to not let people know if there is going to be a outage of significant duration.
Of course, this is nothing new. The "transparency" of the entire FPN leadership group.....Administrator and most, but not all, of his group of Moderators..... has been non-existent for many years.
They all have had the attitude that if you don't like what they are doing, you can just go someplace else. Actually, were it not for this FPG may have never come into existence.
Quite frankly, I'd rather be here with no Administrator than be over there where everything is so heavy handed.
But, let's face it, there is a wealth of incredibly valuable information stored there as well as some amazing member-resources that one can not find anywhere else.
It would be awful if it dissolved into cyberspace.

[mulrich]

Weird that there’s no info from the site owner. Hopefully this is a short term problem and when it comes back, classifieds will be restored.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Returns a 500 error so could be a number of things. One thing is sure, it hasn't permanently "disappeared" or "gone", just a temporary outage. Too bad, I was kind of waiting for hanging out there now that I have some time to kill this Saturday (and an interesting recent purchase to chew the fat on). Oh well...there is here, reddit, and FB also (among others). :D

What sorts of things could a 500 error mean? In the FPN past, when it was down, we got one of those more personalized messages....'Dear friends of this fountain pen nut house...' or something similar.

[Jerome Tarshis]

Although I am not a Web professional, I can say that as a user of Web sites I consider this last to be a good point. In the past we have had an FPN screen that began with "Dear friends ...." and went on to say FPN's Web arrangements were being worked on. The same is true of many other sites that are being worked on in whole or in part: we see a screen that tells us at the very least that the page is under construction. We don't see an error message with a number.

Time will bring further realities, but may not bring a transparent explanation of what happened.

[Dirk Barcode]

Maybe we could make a group here for FPN folks to find each other.

Hey Misfit. Like an FPN lifeboat?
Permission to come aboard?
Happy New Year
(P.I.Tom as Dirk Barcode)

[dneal]

But, let's face it, there is a wealth of incredibly valuable information stored there as well as some amazing member-resources that one can not find anywhere else.
It would be awful if it dissolved into cyberspace.

I wonder if anyone wrote that stuff down. With a pen. In cursive…

;)

[Prettypenguin]

@Prettypenguin: Are you PenguinCollector on FPN?

Yes, I am ! Funny enough, I am also prettypenguin over there, but I lost the info for rhat username in 2012 and never got to post anything. PM me on here- I have something for you.

[Misfit]

Happy New Year. I hope FPN comes back soon.

[Misfit]

Sure, and permission granted. I’ll see if I can figure out the Group formation. @Dirk Barcode

[LizEF]

What sorts of things could a 500 error mean? In the FPN past, when it was down, we got one of those more personalized messages....'Dear friends of this fountain pen nut house...' or something similar.

It means only that the server doesn't know how to reply to the request and none of the defined error messages apply. It could be that the database crashed, or the forum app crashed, or someone hacked something, or some similar problem. It could mean that Wim is operating in emergency mode and didn't take the time to post a message, opting instead to just shut some things down and work on recovery. Whatever else is true, the server (hardware and HTTP server) and domain (fountainpennetwork.com) are both there and functional, just not the forum app. My personal worry is that something crashed and Wim doesn't know yet (because he hasn't been using the site). And if that's the case, unless someone knows a sure-fire way of communicating with him, and has done so, the site could be down indefinitely until he realizes it's offline (or until the hosting service reboots something or whatever).

My hope is actually that he took things down intentionally to do some fixing. We'll see.

[Misfit]

I’ve got a group created, joining by invitation only. So if you want to join the group, it’s named FPN Lifeboat.

Since I made the group invitation only, I’ve sent out some invitations. If you are a FPN member, and didn’t get a group invitation, and want one, please ask here.

[jandrew]

I’ve got a group created, joining by invitation only. So if you want to join the group, it’s named FPN Lifeboat.

Since I made the group invitation only, I’ve sent out some invitations. If you are a FPN member, and didn’t get a group invitation, and want one, please ask here.
Hey misfit ... just another FPN refugee seeking lifeboat ;)

[christof]

I was not very active on FPN for the last couple of years, but still contributet lots of photo and pen history stuff during more than a decade. I would be sorry to see that it got lost. My user name is the same there.

[JulieParadise]

Same here; I am Julie Paradise all over teh interwebs. ;-)

[Misfit]

I'll send more invitations. I'm not sure where they show up. Maybe those who found them can explain where to look for them. I changed the group style from invite only to moderated, so that FPN "refugees" can, I hope, request to join. It's all new to me.

[Misfit]

Same here; I am Julie Paradise all over teh interwebs. ;-)

I sent you, and several others who have replied here, an invitation to join the Group FPN Lifeboat. I loved the post you made on a thread that described living life in a liquid way.

[TSherbs]

I don't even know what a "group" is here. What is a group?

[Sailor Kenshin]

What sorts of things could a 500 error mean? In the FPN past, when it was down, we got one of those more personalized messages....'Dear friends of this fountain pen nut house...' or something similar.

It means only that the server doesn't know how to reply to the request and none of the defined error messages apply. It could be that the database crashed, or the forum app crashed, or someone hacked something, or some similar problem. It could mean that Wim is operating in emergency mode and didn't take the time to post a message, opting instead to just shut some things down and work on recovery. Whatever else is true, the server (hardware and HTTP server) and domain (fountainpennetwork.com) are both there and functional, just not the forum app. My personal worry is that something crashed and Wim doesn't know yet (because he hasn't been using the site). And if that's the case, unless someone knows a sure-fire way of communicating with him, and has done so, the site could be down indefinitely until he realizes it's offline (or until the hosting service reboots something or whatever).

My hope is actually that he took things down intentionally to do some fixing. We'll see.

Same here.

Wow! That is a detailed response. Thanks very much; I know so little about such things.

Good to see you here, too.

[724Seney]

What sorts of things could a 500 error mean? In the FPN past, when it was down, we got one of those more personalized messages....'Dear friends of this fountain pen nut house...' or something similar.

It means only that the server doesn't know how to reply to the request and none of the defined error messages apply. It could be that the database crashed, or the forum app crashed, or someone hacked something, or some similar problem. It could mean that Wim is operating in emergency mode and didn't take the time to post a message, opting instead to just shut some things down and work on recovery. Whatever else is true, the server (hardware and HTTP server) and domain (fountainpennetwork.com) are both there and functional, just not the forum app. My personal worry is that something crashed and Wim doesn't know yet (because he hasn't been using the site). And if that's the case, unless someone knows a sure-fire way of communicating with him, and has done so, the site could be down indefinitely until he realizes it's offline (or until the hosting service reboots something or whatever).

My hope is actually that he took things down intentionally to do some fixing. We'll see.

Most probably already know this but @LizEF is one of the "good guys" (I hope to say it that way is ok) over at FPN. As a Moderator, she is always friendly, approachable, helpful.
Thanks Liz, the input & perspective you have provided in this post is definitely appreciated!

[junglejim]

New Message up at FPN. They have a file with some database corruption and are working on it.

[LizEF]

Same here.

Wow! That is a detailed response. Thanks very much; I know so little about such things.

Good to see you here, too.

:) Yes, good to see all the familiar faces. You're welcome. I noted that this morning the error page has changed. I can't begin to guess why, but I think it's a good sign and most likely means that some human somewhere is involved.

[LizEF]

Most probably already know this but @LizEF is one of the "good guys" (I hope to say it that way is ok) over at FPN. As a Moderator, she is always friendly, approachable, helpful.
Thanks Liz, the input & perspective you have provided in this post is definitely appreciated!

:) Thank you, Seney! (Though, I'm not a moderator on FPN or anywhere else (well, except my own websites).) Let's all hope and pray that Wim is well and is on the case! (No idea where @junglejim got his info, but I hope that's the case.)

[OCArt]

Can someone please tell me where I can find the invitation to join the Group FPN Lifeboat that Misfit sent me?

[Sailor Kenshin]

New Message up at FPN. They have a file with some database corruption and are working on it.

Thanks! That is the type of message we are used to seeing... right down to the 'nut house.' 😉

Meanwhile, I feel this is apropos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Fg4197jsM

[724Seney]

Most probably already know this but @LizEF is one of the "good guys" (I hope to say it that way is ok) over at FPN. As a Moderator, she is always friendly, approachable, helpful.
Thanks Liz, the input & perspective you have provided in this post is definitely appreciated!

:) Thank you, Seney! (Though, I'm not a moderator on FPN or anywhere else (well, except my own websites).) Let's all hope and pray that Wim is well and is on the case! (No idea where @junglejim got his info, but I hope that's the case.)

Oops! My bad! I thought sure you were a Mod there!
Oh well, the sentiments stand, even if the Mod label was wrong!

[OCArt]

Can someone please tell me where I can find the invitation to join the Group FPN Lifeboat that Misfit sent me?

Problem solved, I just found a invite in my mailbox!

[LizEF]

Oops! My bad! I thought sure you were a Mod there!
Oh well, the sentiments stand, even if the Mod label was wrong!

:D No worries!

[FredRydr]

Wim writes, "As always, we will keep you informed of our progress."

As always?!

[Ron Z]

Wim writes, "As always, we will keep you informed of our progress."

As always?!

Wim does try to give updates when working on the site. He doesn't give the site any less attention than the owner of another board that I know. Maybe a couple others come to think of it. At least there are people who can delete and ban spammers.

[karmachanic]

Queue the music (https://youtu.be/5NKMk8IpcV8)

[Farmboy]

This work?

https://youtu.be/lMnrlw1-U68

[LizEF]

... another board that I know...

Are there other English-language FP fora besides FPN, FPGeeks, and reddit's r/fountainpens? I'd love to check them out, but googling never revealed any to me (not that I'm terribly impressed with google search results, but that's another topic).

[Jon Szanto]

Here's a thought:

Since FPG is, once again, being a safe haven and place for people to gather when FPN is out of commission, why don't we all just be grateful for the sense of community and outreach, enjoy our pens, and not start hammering on each other or anyone else. I'd like to start the year with a sense of optimism and collegiality, and not rehash old tropes and acrimony.

welcome FPN folks, Happy New Year to all!

[mana]

Here's a thought:

Since FPG is, once again, being a safe haven and place for people to gather when FPN is out of commission, why don't we all just be grateful for the sense of community and outreach, enjoy our pens, and not start hammering on each other or anyone else. I'd like to start the year with a sense of optimism and collegiality, and not rehash old tropes and acrimony.

welcome FPN folks, Happy New Year to all!
Hear, hear! Happy New Year to you too!

[Ron Z]

It would appear that Pentrace (http://newpentrace.net) is still around. I gave up on it a few years ago when I had to jump through hoops to be able to log on. May have been some of the settings in Firefox, but there wasn't much traffic.

[PithyProlix]

May I ask, please, if the FPN admin were to, say, decide to walk away from the position, die (god forbid), etc. what is the plan to continue the site?

[Jon Szanto]

May I ask, please, if the FPN admin were to, say, decide to walk away from the position, die (god forbid), etc. what is the plan to continue the site?

Anyone except Wim (the admin) would be just guessing at the answer to that question.

[LizEF]

It would appear that Pentrace (http://newpentrace.net) is still around. I gave up on it a few years ago when I had to jump through hoops to be able to log on. May have been some of the settings in Firefox, but there wasn't much traffic.

Thanks, Ron. I found a couple, but one was completely dead (last post in the 20-teens) and the other was as dead as some people describe FPN - last post was in December and before that, October, I think. Anywho, hopefully FPN comes back soon and stronger than ever. Hopefully Wim gets himself some help and fixes the classifieds. And hopefully lots more FP users decide to join us on the various fora. :D

[Misfit]

I was so happy to see that message on FPN. Grateful to be here, but so good to know FPN will be back.

[Misfit]

I don't even know what a "group" is here. What is a group?

I saw Groups on my Profile page. I checked it out, and saw I could create one, so I did. I’ll send you an invitation.

[mizgeorge]

I don't understand why we need a special group? So many of us are quite happily members in both places, so why create a 'them and us' space here?

This forum has off-topic boards for those who wish to discuss contentious subjects (or just things that aren't pen-related) but there has never been a need to have an invitation to take part in those discussions.

I just worry that people who aren't invited, whether by error, omission, accident or quite deliberately will feel they are in some way being discriminated against or left out of something they might want to be part of, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.

[TSherbs]

I don't even know what a "group" is here. What is a group?

I saw Groups on my Profile page. I checked it out, and saw I could create one, so I did. I’ll send you an invitation.

Thanks, I was just curious how it worked. I am not looking to join anything more select here. I have been a member of both sites since 2012/2013

Is a group like a private thread or chatroom?

[TSherbs]

That message is no longer what one gets at FPN (I just got a long error message).

[bunnspecial]

Here's what I'm seeing now, 7:47PM CST

74400

[TSherbs]

Interesting

[Misfit]

I don't understand why we need a special group? So many of us are quite happily members in both places, so why create a 'them and us' space here?

This forum has off-topic boards for those who wish to discuss contentious subjects (or just things that aren't pen-related) but there has never been a need to have an invitation to take part in those discussions.

I just worry that people who aren't invited, whether by error, omission, accident or quite deliberately will feel they are in some way being discriminated against or left out of something they might want to be part of, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.
That wasn’t the intention. I don’t know how many people are on both forums. By mentioning a group here, it was an effort to say it’s here if you want to join. I have no wish to discriminate against people. I saw Groups on my Profile page, got curious, and saw it was easy to create, so I did. While there are no moderators here, a Group does have an administrative function. You can set how easy it is to join. You can remove members. You can delete other people’s comments.

I recall seeing you on FPN. Nice to know there are lots of people on both forums.

[Misfit]

I have modified the Group to make it public, which allows for anyone to join. That is as welcoming as it can be. If anyone wants to join, feel free. If you don’t want to join, that’s fine.

[SendaiNY]

I'd like an invite please.

[mhguda]

I’ve got a group created, joining by invitation only. So if you want to join the group, it’s named FPN Lifeboat.

Since I made the group invitation only, I’ve sent out some invitations. If you are a FPN member, and didn’t get a group invitation, and want one, please ask here.

Please let me join the FPN lifeboat. I'm having withdrawal symptoms...

[mhguda]

I did find the group, and joined, but I can't figure out how to post there to join the discussion?
I've been a member here for a long time, but have not been very active in recent years, although I do read regularly. But never joined a group here before, so no idea how to post?
Anyway it's good to find so many other exiles here. Brings back memories of earlier downtimes...

[LizEF]

Please let me join the FPN lifeboat. I'm having withdrawal symptoms...

I just posted today's ink review, in hopes it will feel more like home... ;)


Anyway it's good to find so many other exiles here. Brings back memories of earlier downtimes...

:rofl: (Learning my bb codes.)

[LizEF]

I did find the group, and joined, but I can't figure out how to post there to join the discussion?

The following assumes a web browser on a computer (I have no idea what this site looks like on a phone).


Go to the main menu, click Community, then Groups
Click on FPN Lifeboat to open the group; you should see a list of existing threads
At the top, right corner of the thread list is a button titled "+Post New Discussion"
Click that to make a new discussion; the rest should be obvious

Otherwise, click on one of the discussions to join it.
Scroll to the bottom and complete the "Quick Reply" field, and then "Post Message" to add your reply to the discussion


Hope that helps.

(Meanwhile, holy arcane editor, Batman! :D )

[mhguda]

There is something not right here though. When I go to groups, there is an option for me to leave, but I am not listed as a member, and the option to post does not appear. Not quite sure what is happening...

[LizEF]

There is something not right here though. When I go to groups, there is an option for me to leave, but I am not listed as a member, and the option to post does not appear. Not quite sure what is happening...

For what it's worth, here's what I see:

Menu:

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=74410&d=1672761646

Groups list - click title:

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=74411&d=1672761653

Topics and new post button:

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=74412&d=1672761659

Sounds like you got as far as seeing the groups. Did you click on the group name to go into it?

[Yazeh]

I'm glad to see so many fellow members of the other side. It's so refreshing :rockon:

[karmachanic]

I'll remain one of the common huddled masses

[dneal]

I don't understand why we need a special group? So many of us are quite happily members in both places, so why create a 'them and us' space here?

This forum has off-topic boards for those who wish to discuss contentious subjects (or just things that aren't pen-related) but there has never been a need to have an invitation to take part in those discussions.

I just worry that people who aren't invited, whether by error, omission, accident or quite deliberately will feel they are in some way being discriminated against or left out of something they might want to be part of, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.
That wasn’t the intention. I don’t know how many people are on both forums. By mentioning a group here, it was an effort to say it’s here if you want to join. I have no wish to discriminate against people. I saw Groups on my Profile page, got curious, and saw it was easy to create, so I did. While there are no moderators here, a Group does have an administrative function. You can set how easy it is to join. You can remove members. You can delete other people’s comments.

I recall seeing you on FPN. Nice to know there are lots of people on both forums.

So the benefit is that you can remove members and delete comments? That's what you're missing with FPN?

I'm really scratching my head on this one.

It‘s kinda weird to me that people would come here because their preferred site is down, create a "special" section to use in the interim, knowing the inevitable abandonment that will follow (like all the other "groups").

Seems inherently divisive, and a little disrespectful to the guy that pays the bills. It also looks like some weird sort of digital "squatting". If you're going to be a part of FPG, why not just be a part of it? Post a "what's your FPN handle" thread here in the lounge, if you want. It's not like it’s going to be bumped to the second page by the afternoon. There's a "doodles and such" post in there now. Why not just post a new thread in the Art and Calligraphy section? Same with the haikus. There’s a creative writing section that can go in.

[mhguda]

I do not appear on the list of members. Do you have to enter me as a member, Misfit? And also, I do not see the new post button.

[Jon Szanto]

So the benefit is that you can remove members and delete comments? That's what you're missing with FPN?

I'm really scratching my head on this one.

D, you may be overthinking or reading into it. I take it as someone who came here, saw an option that might make for the convenience of keeping info regarding FPN in one place, and set up that group. I don't think Misfit was actively searching for a construct that would allow for membership and deletion and stuff, just looked around and found the Groups function.

I think it was benign and just a quick thought to address a situation. Certainly, a central thread could be made. Hell, in the past, I've made "FPN Diaspora, check in here!" threads, even though I am not a regular there any more.

Again, just trying to keep things as peaced-out as possible. I'm such a flower.

[dneal]

So the benefit is that you can remove members and delete comments? That's what you're missing with FPN?

I'm really scratching my head on this one.

D, you may be overthinking or reading into it. I take it as someone who came here, saw an option that might make for the convenience of keeping info regarding FPN in one place, and set up that group. I don't think Misfit was actively searching for a construct that would allow for membership and deletion and stuff, just looked around and found the Groups function.

I think it was benign and just a quick thought to address a situation. Certainly, a central thread could be made. Hell, in the past, I've made "FPN Diaspora, check in here!" threads, even though I am not a regular there any more.

Again, just trying to keep things as peaced-out as possible. I'm such a flower.

The fact that everything posted in there can be posted in the regular forum, like your FPN Diaspora thread, is my point. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but truth is I'm not giving it a whole lot of thought other than "that's odd..."

But even the subtitle of the group says: "For people who used FPN more often than FPG". It's not a giant leap for some to have it interpreted to "for us FPN folks who (again) don't have a forum, but don't want to participate in FPG". "Us vs Them" is an idea already noted before my post. Hypothetically, you could create a board within a board for just the 'special' people - while Eric pays for the bandwidth and hosting.

Note I'm a member of both forums. I don't really care what people do or don't do. They're as free to make a little FPN hidey-hole as I am to comment on it.

It's still a little weird, IMHO.

[Jon Szanto]

It's still a little weird, IMHO.

In today's world, what isn't? ;) I know, it is a bit squicky, but I'm going with "benefit of the doubt" here, and I posted in that group that they might consider posting a "Hi" in the New Members forum.

FFS, I'm more than a little weird, myself!

[dneal]

FFS, I'm more than a little weird, myself!

Yes ;), but your "say hi" note in the other group bears repeating here:


Hey folks, here's a thought: if you are here from FPN, even if it is just a temporary resting place while FPN is being worked on, why not post a quick "hello and here's a little bit about me" note in the New Members forum? It would only take a second, let people say hi, and it also gives the vibe that you acknowledge this place, too, which has become a respite home for the moment!

[LizEF]

One thing is certain, Misfit is not the sort of person who would have the suggested negative motives.

[dneal]

One thing is certain, Misfit is not the sort of person who would have the suggested negative motives.

Had to delete a couple of drafts because on reflection they're just going to lead to drama.

The gist is that I'm not suggesting negative motives, but that people are happy to infer many things based on appearance. Ask me how I know...

There is an appearance of ingroup/outgroup, intended or not, which is what I think mizgeorge was alluding to and certainly what I was referring to.

[jandrew]

One thing is certain, Misfit is not the sort of person who would have the suggested negative motives.

Had to delete a couple of drafts because on reflection they're just going to lead to drama.

The gist is that I'm not suggesting negative motives, but that people are happy to infer many things based on appearance. Ask me how I know...

There is an appearance of ingroup/outgroup, intended or not, which is what I think mizgeorge was alluding to and certainly what I was referring to.

Personally, I usually lurk around a forum for some time before deciding if it's a place I want to frequent and become an active member --- the FPN lifeboat group felt like a little bit of familiarity I could use while I explore the main forum.

However, it seems to me someone came here, became a registered user, and used an available forum feature (groups) and you have nothing but negative insinuations about it. Welcome to FPG I guess?

[dneal]

One thing is certain, Misfit is not the sort of person who would have the suggested negative motives.

Had to delete a couple of drafts because on reflection they're just going to lead to drama.

The gist is that I'm not suggesting negative motives, but that people are happy to infer many things based on appearance. Ask me how I know...

There is an appearance of ingroup/outgroup, intended or not, which is what I think mizgeorge was alluding to and certainly what I was referring to.

Personally, I usually lurk around a forum for some time before deciding if it's a place I want to frequent and become an active member --- the FPN lifeboat group felt like a little bit of familiarity I could use while I explore the main forum.

However, it seems to me someone came here, became a registered user, and used an available forum feature (groups) and you have nothing but negative insinuations about it. Welcome to FPG I guess?

So you're inferring negative motive?

Hey, it happens.

-edit-

I don't know you, but am happy to get acquainted. I also don't know how long you've been around one forum or another. There's a lot of history and drama with FPN and FPG that's best avoided with all this stuff - because of how it appears. This place has had enough drama. Best to shine sunlight on it and get it out in the open.

I think people can participate on both forums. I don't know why people (like you) seem to be sequestering yourselves in an "FPN group" on FPG. Just say hi and start posting.

I liked your doodle.

[Misfit]

Even though I changed the method of joining, it seems as administrator I still have accept those who chose to join. So sadly you have to wait on me to get out of bed, and login here. Some of you know I have wake/sleep issues. They are going the wrong way again. I’ve accepted all who requested to join, so things should work now.

[Misfit]

I don't understand why we need a special group? So many of us are quite happily members in both places, so why create a 'them and us' space here?

This forum has off-topic boards for those who wish to discuss contentious subjects (or just things that aren't pen-related) but there has never been a need to have an invitation to take part in those discussions.

I just worry that people who aren't invited, whether by error, omission, accident or quite deliberately will feel they are in some way being discriminated against or left out of something they might want to be part of, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.
That wasn’t the intention. I don’t know how many people are on both forums. By mentioning a group here, it was an effort to say it’s here if you want to join. I have no wish to discriminate against people. I saw Groups on my Profile page, got curious, and saw it was easy to create, so I did. While there are no moderators here, a Group does have an administrative function. You can set how easy it is to join. You can remove members. You can delete other people’s comments.

I recall seeing you on FPN. Nice to know there are lots of people on both forums.

So the benefit is that you can remove members and delete comments? That's what you're missing with FPN?

I'm really scratching my head on this one.

It‘s kinda weird to me that people would come here because their preferred site is down, create a "special" section to use in the interim, knowing the inevitable abandonment that will follow (like all the other "groups").

Seems inherently divisive, and a little disrespectful to the guy that pays the bills. It also looks like some weird sort of digital "squatting". If you're going to be a part of FPG, why not just be a part of it? Post a "what's your FPN handle" thread here in the lounge, if you want. It's not like it’s going to be bumped to the second page by the afternoon. There's a "doodles and such" post in there now. Why not just post a new thread in the Art and Calligraphy section? Same with the haikus. There’s a creative writing section that can go in.


I suppose I didn’t describe this correctly. I’ve read there are no moderators here. You can create Groups here. I created a group, which was all new to me. I noticed it had admin functions. Those functions seem very much like a moderator.

So if anything is inherently decisive, it is this forum having a group function that gives control to the person who created it.

[dneal]

*sigh*

I'm really just saying all this is unnecessary. FPN is down. It happens, and people come here. This isn't the first, and probably won't be the last time. I'm fine with that. I suspect Reddit has seen some additional traffic too.

Just post in the forum. Contribute something to it besides a parceled off little section that we all know is going to be abandoned when FPN comes back online. Haiku's are cool. Doodles are cool. Ink reviews are cool too.

If you want to show your appreciation for FPG being here, add to its content.

-edit-

While here, you can even enjoy the functional classifieds! ;)

[jandrew]

...
I don't know you, but am happy to get acquainted. I also don't know how long you've been around one forum or another. There's a lot of history and drama with FPN and FPG that's best avoided with all this stuff - because of how it appears. This place has had enough drama. Best to shine sunlight on it and get it out in the open.

I think people can participate on both forums. I don't know why people (like you) seem to be sequestering yourselves in an "FPN group" on FPG. Just say hi and start posting.
...


You don't know me, or why I might make different choices than you ... yet you want to insist I just do it your way. Perhaps I've seen enough.

[dneal]

...
I don't know you, but am happy to get acquainted. I also don't know how long you've been around one forum or another. There's a lot of history and drama with FPN and FPG that's best avoided with all this stuff - because of how it appears. This place has had enough drama. Best to shine sunlight on it and get it out in the open.

I think people can participate on both forums. I don't know why people (like you) seem to be sequestering yourselves in an "FPN group" on FPG. Just say hi and start posting.
...


You don't know me, or why I might make different choices than you ... yet you want to insist I just do it your way. Perhaps I've seen enough.

So inferring negative motive it is then...

[724Seney]

...
I don't know you, but am happy to get acquainted. I also don't know how long you've been around one forum or another. There's a lot of history and drama with FPN and FPG that's best avoided with all this stuff - because of how it appears. This place has had enough drama. Best to shine sunlight on it and get it out in the open.

I think people can participate on both forums. I don't know why people (like you) seem to be sequestering yourselves in an "FPN group" on FPG. Just say hi and start posting.
...


You don't know me, or why I might make different choices than you ... yet you want to insist I just do it your way. Perhaps I've seen enough.

Yes, maybe so........

You know @jandrew, there is something vaguely familiar about the approach you seem to be taking here in your first couple of posts.

Hmmmmm............... :confused:
Could it be????????

[Farmboy]

While here, you can even enjoy the functional classifieds! ;)

Was it not the Classified Section that was the down fall of FPN over an over again?

That sections seems to be dominated by people that list a lot of items and provide almost zero content. I'd find it more enjoyable if the sales went elsewhere and we just chatted pens (and inks and paper if you so desire).

Maybe I'm in the true minority but I don't think I've opened the 'Classified' sections in years.

Farmboy on-line when someone else didn't already take the name.

[Misfit]

Please leave JAndrew alone. Please. I know him a little, and he is a good person, a good son. It’s his business to say more or less.

The point has been made that some of you don’t like the Group function on this forum.

[mhguda]

Hi Misfit, sorry to be a bother. It worked - thank you!
And, I was a bit slow to let you know - on my afternoon walk, I somehow turned my ankle, fell, and ended up being driven home by a passing neighbor with a swollen ankle.

[LizEF]

Hi Misfit, sorry to be a bother. It worked - thank you!
And, I was a bit slow to let you know - on my afternoon walk, I somehow turned my ankle, fell, and ended up being driven home by a passing neighbor with a swollen ankle.

:( Hope it heals quickly, mhguda!

[dneal]

The point has been made that some of you don’t like the Group function on this forum.

Let's be perfectly clear about the point. It's not the group function, it's this particular use of it. Making a little FPN corner of FPG is simply poor form. Would FPN allow a FPG section? We all know the answer.

Let's all appreciate fountain pens and what they bring. Let's appreciate that FPG is here. We can do that by posting in the corresponding sections and sharing with the other geeks.

You can continue to do as you like, and others can continue to have (and post) their opinions of it.

[Misfit]

So would you be equally against a group if I made one called Girls Only?

[Misfit]

Hi Misfit, sorry to be a bother. It worked - thank you!
And, I was a bit slow to let you know - on my afternoon walk, I somehow turned my ankle, fell, and ended up being driven home by a passing neighbor with a swollen ankle.

Oh no! I’m so sorry to hear that happened. I can relate. Glad you have good neighbors as well. I think the advice is keep your ankle elevated and use ice.

[TSherbs]

Please leave JAndrew alone. Please. I know him a little, and he is a good person, a good son. It’s his business to say more or less.

The point has been made that some of you don’t like the Group function on this forum.

It's all good, Misfit. You did not do anything wrong. I hope that you enjoy your stay here, for however long it is. Your posts led me to discover a functionality at FPG that I did not know existed. Turns out that there are several other groups, too. Make use of it however you see fit!

And hopefully, FPN will get it's problems cleared up for us all (I check a few times each day).

[dneal]

So would you be equally against a group if I made one called Girls Only?

Some reason you can't address the topic without the weird analogies? Since you want to make this contentious, let's do that. Here's what I deleted earlier, specifically to avoid this kind of bullshit.

Your first comment on this:


Maybe we could make a group here for FPN folks to find each other.

I mean, why? Why not just make a thread, right here in the lounge? Here's a sample title: "FPN refugees post here" See, not hard.

Then you post this:


I’ve got a group created, joining by invitation only. So if you want to join the group, it’s named FPN Lifeboat.

Since I made the group invitation only, I’ve sent out some invitations. If you are a FPN member, and didn’t get a group invitation, and want one, please ask here.

You say "invitation only" twice. Do you expect us to believe that was an accident? It's exclusionary, and blatantly so. "Hey, I'm going to start an invitation only FPN group here on FPG". Seriously? Who does that? The hubris is incredible.

Then you're on about the fact that there's moderation in the group section. You raised it. Why? when everyone knows the forum is unmoderated. Is there some significance for you?


I changed the group style from invite only to moderated

Interestingly, no mods here, but the group is moderated.

Every other group is simply open. You chose differently. It's weird in some freaky controlling FPN way.

Then you post this:


Feel free to start topics everyone. Some we have on FPN don’t seem to be here. I miss the Stationery Junkie thread.

Now it's really getting weird, and why it looks like you're trying to make a mini FPN within FPG. Again, hubris. You post about your new notebooks you got delivered. Why not post that in the paper forum?

You even add the FPN logo for your group on FP Geeks? Seriously?

But since "negative motive" appears to be a theme, it seems clear in your haiku.


Thank you FPG
for a place to meet while home
is renovated

Is that all this is? A place to recreate your little world until it comes back? Poor form is putting it nicely. Honestly, it's fucking rude and insulting.

Want to thank FPG for being here? Participate in it instead of selfishly using it (and I mean "using" in the most pejorative sense).

The fact that you're seemingly outraged that anyone would question the totality of these circumstances leaves me SMDH.


Welcome to FP Geeks.

[Misfit]

Thank you TSherbs. I thought I recognized your name. A member here helped me find the index of ink reviews, which was right there at the top, and I managed to miss it. I hope it’s ok to reply to a 10-year-old review.

[Misfit]

So much for a private Group if someone can quote passages from it.

The last thing I will say to you @dneal is you seem to willfully misconstrue a lot. Nice language too. Please don’t feel the need to respond.

[Monsoon]

Hello Misfit.

A (I think) long term member here recommended the Fountain Pen Network as a good source of info and populated by a friendly and enthusiastic bunch of people. I have had a look at the site, liked what I saw but had not gotten round to signing up for membership. Will do this as soon as the problems are resolved. Are you a moderator on that website?

As far as this group creation here goes I reckon the old saying about no good deed goes unpunished seems to have applied which is a pity.

[dneal]

So much for a private Group if someone can quote passages from it.

Glad you're starting to see how silly it was to even do in the first place.


The last thing I will say to you @dneal is you seem to willfully misconstrue a lot.

Funny, I was thinking the same about you. We didn't have to end up here.


Nice language too.

Thanks. It gets much more colorful, but I've had lots of practice. Works well to shut up the passive-aggressive assholes, at any rate. They like to use "thanks" buttons instead (bet you wish FPN had that!)


Please don’t feel the need to respond.

Speaking of passive-aggressive assholes...



p.s.: "Monsoon" is Empty of Clouds pretending to be a Texan. Do whatever you think is best with that tidbit.

[Misfit]

Oh goodness no, I’m not a moderator there. I don’t have the time or inclination. I’ve found some members becoming true friends so I miss them. I’m learning where to find topics here. The ink index by Chrissy is a must see. I enjoy her reviews too. Another member had a series of reviews done while at lunch, so they are Lunchtime Reviews. I think ink reviews are my most go to, because you can learn what an ink is all about before buying. I have learned I like shading and halo-ing or outlining. @Monsoon, I think you’ll find good information at both forums. We are lucky to have several. Reddit has a sub forum for fountain pens. Be warned. So many photos can be enabling.

[Monsoon]

Thanks Misfit. There is for sure a choice. :D You have already run afoul of the lack of moderation here so I wont harp on that other than to say that it is a very small minority who are like that. The rest from what I have experienced seem pretty much nice people. I am more of a pencil kind of guy. Have a bunch of pens back home but I have worked in hot humid areas for quite a while now and find pencils work better for me as a daily writing tool.

[mana]

Sheesh... such drama. So very "welcoming". I suppose I should just stick to posting in the Pelikan subforum here...

[TSherbs]

I hope it’s ok to reply to a 10-year-old review.

Of course it is. If anyone says otherwise, just ignore them.

Honestly, FPGeeks has suffered some attrition over recent years (so has FPN). (Reddit has boomed). It's too bad that the resources and spirit of these two sites aren't combined. There are good people on both, and not all the same people. It's like two mostly empty churches down the street from each other, worshipping the same pen god but determined not to join and pool their resources. So each keeps shrinking bit by bit.

[mhguda]

Thanks, Misfit. It's already much better today. It does help that this was not the first time I had an ankle trouble me... I knew to put ice, compression, elevation, and, most importantly, rest.
This morning the swelling is almost down... making very good progress. I don't think it will be long (this time). But thanks for the advice. And yes, it does feel nice to have good neighbors.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Even though I changed the method of joining, it seems as administrator I still have accept those who chose to join. So sadly you have to wait on me to get out of bed, and login here. Some of you know I have wake/sleep issues. They are going the wrong way again. I’ve accepted all who requested to join, so things should work now.

Don't worry about any of this. New forums can be confusing, even to veterans. I've been here umpteen years and still didn't know how to get Groups notifications.

[Ray-VIgo]

The point about the classifieds tail wagging the FPN dog was a good one. The classifieds went from a basic sub-forum, to a specialized system, and to a complicated thing with paid membership levels and fully commercial users dominating. Ultimately the classifieds system kept causing problems (both technical and otherwise) for everything else there.

Maybe internet boards (or websites in general?) have a sweet spot for the number of visitors and members. Too few and it loses steam, too many and it becomes chaotic or commercialized.

I don't visit there much any more, but I hope FPN continues because people have contributed useful information over the years there (at least if you sort out the static), and it helps to have reference to that information.

[LizEF]

Reddit has a sub forum for fountain pens. Be warned. So many photos can be enabling.

:D Yes, reddit is (almost) all about the pretty pictures. Best to lock your credit cards away before entering. ;)

[sanphoemo]

Well, very interesting and refreshing. Hope FPN wil, be back in business soon. In the meantime, I'll have a look at the lifeboat.....

[~JJ]

... another board that I know...

Are there other English-language FP fora besides FPN, FPGeeks, and reddit's r/fountainpens? I'd love to check them out, but googling never revealed any to me (not that I'm terribly impressed with google search results, but that's another topic).

Hi Lizzie!
Great to see you! I'm here too - a stranger in a strange land. And apparently, from my first experience here, one of the bad guys too, so watch out! LOL

Re your question, I'll paste here something from one of my Subject Matter Stickynotes I copied a couple years ago when I first decided to look for online shelters for this sickness. I'll also note I've not investigated for currency since that time either, so fwiw, here's what I've got:
============================>Alternatives to the Fountain Pen Network:
[src: http://www.restorersart.com/alternatives-to-the-fountain-pen-network/]
==============\
Fountain Pen Board

Fountain Pen Board*was launched in 2010 by Dr. David Isaacson, of*Vacumania*fame. Intended specifically as an alternative to*fpn, this forum has a population of around 1,300 of the most dedicated fountain pen afficionados.

Isaacson is very much the guiding force behind this board, and it shows. The majority of sub-forums and threads are related to his great love: vintage pens. However, there are few, if any, rules & regulations, and everyone is quite easy-going, so modern pens are quite happily tolerated.

Commercial activity is encouraged, and pens both fine and humble have been offered. Also, if you want freely-given qualified opinions on any pen-related matter, you will find them here. Historians, plastics experts, and decades of experience can all be found at*fpb.
=======
Fountain Pen Geeks

Fountain Pen Geeks*should actually rate two mentions: an excellent community forum, and a very geeky*podcast, now on episode #68.

The*fpg*forum is the fastest-growing of the alternatives to*fpn. Established in 2010, it boasts just under 2,000 members, and seems to be where many*fpn*castaways are coming ashore.

The sub-forums range widely in topic, and include commercial postings in a classified section. The community is warm and welcoming, and a wide variety of interests are represented. Moderation is minimal, as are rules & regulations (noticing a pattern here?)

This speed of this forum is slick to use, and a pleasure to look at, expecially after a few days of the*fpn*turtle-at-the-races experience.
=======
Fountain Pen Classifieds
[Requires upload of ur website page to participate]

fpc, like*Fountain Pen Board, is a forum whose genesis was dissatisfaction with*fpn. In this case, the issue was commercialization, and the board was established in 2011 with a specific mission statement: come here to buy, sell, or trade pens.

No rules & regulations, just capitalism; and it works. Over 1,300 members carry out a brisk trade in all sorts of pens. Your particular interest will be easy to find, as the sub-forums are well-organized and specific. Not only are there the eponymous classifieds, but sub-forums include information on all aspects of buying and selling, including real-world information, dealers’ announcements, pen shows & clubs, and more.
÷÷÷÷

Peace, out.
~_/_/

[JulieParadise]

Fountain Pen Classifieds
[Requires upload of ur website page to participate]


Thank you for pointing us to other fora to explore!

Maybe this is a very dumb question and I'll end up as idiot of the day, but: What is meant by "To change this page, upload your website into the public_html directory" on their landing page?

[kazoolaw]

Fountain Pen Group on Facebook [a David Isaacson production]
https://www.facebook.com/groups/fpnuts

[LizEF]

Hi Lizzie!
Great to see you! I'm here too - a stranger in a strange land. And apparently, from my first experience here, one of the bad guys too, so watch out! LOL

Hi, ~JJ! Are you JJ on FPN, too, or...?



Re your question, I'll paste here something from one of my Subject Matter Stickynotes I copied a couple years ago when I first decided to look for online shelters for this sickness. I'll also note I've not investigated for currency since that time either, so fwiw, here's what I've got:

Thank you for the links / references.

I'm familiar with Fountain Pen Board / FPNuts.com (which redirects to http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/ ). It's the one that looks as dead as some claim FPN is. (FPN is clearly not close to dead, let alone that dead.)

We're on FPGeeks. :D

And I'm not interested in classifieds, but went to http://fountainpenclassifieds.com/ anyway. It's dead - the error message is saying that the owner needs to log in and upload the site content into the root directory for the website before anything other than the hosting company's default page will show.

[LizEF]

Maybe this is a very dumb question and I'll end up as idiot of the day, but: What is meant by "To change this page, upload your website into the public_html directory" on their landing page?

It's an error message for the site owner. It means whoever owns it removed all the content but still owns the domain name.

[LizEF]

Fountain Pen Group on Facebook [a David Isaacson production]
https://www.facebook.com/groups/fpnuts


I'm one of those weirdos over 30 who hates facebook and cancelled her account years ago. :) But good to know for those on facebook!

[Ron Z]

FPB is almost dead. Look at the last post dates for the forums. Most have not had any posts in over a year, and in some cases 5-6 years. Many other boards except reddit are in the same position. The shear volume of accumulated information to be found on FPN is astounding, as is the traffic there. I'm on both boards regularly, and the number of posts in a couple of hours often is more than in 24 hours here. I'm not dissing FPG. They have and serve different audiences.

What is going on now seems to be the annual, or semi-annual crash of the system.

[JulieParadise]

Maybe this is a very dumb question and I'll end up as idiot of the day, but: What is meant by "To change this page, upload your website into the public_html directory" on their landing page?

It's an error message for the site owner. It means whoever owns it removed all the content but still owns the domain name.

Aah, thank you. I thought I missed something due to language barriers or my lack of technical understanding. (Well, obviously, I did miss something. :to_pick_ones_nose:)

[TSherbs]

FPB is almost dead. Look at the last post dates for the forums. Most have not had any posts in over a year, and in some cases 5-6 years. Many other boards except reddit are in the same position. The shear volume of accumulated information to be found on FPN is astounding, as is the traffic there. I'm on both boards regularly, and the number of posts in a couple of hours often is more than in 24 hours here. I'm not dissing FPG. They have and serve different audiences.

What is going on now seems to be the annual, or semi-annual crash of the system.

My sense is that FPN traffic has been a good bit down since the classifieds met their demise. Is that not your sense? I see fewer new threads, fewer new reviews, fewer posts (my cursory observations).

[Ron Z]

Board traffic in general has declined with the rise of the social media sites that cater to pens.

[kazoolaw]

I'm one of those weirdos over 30 who hates facebook and cancelled her account years ago. :) But good to know for those on facebook!

Go to the group through the link on Vacumania. You can view posts, primarily vintage, though you can't post.
I share your view of FB.

[LizEF]

I'm under the impression that young people today look for an app rather than using a web browser and searching the internet. If FPN had an app, that would probably bring us some more users. I'd guess at least half the questions on r/fountainpens could easily and quickly be answered by a simple internet search, but it doesn't seem to occur to the folk there to do said search. Over time, apps and computing technology will morph more and more to support that way of thinking / operating.

[es9]

The shear volume of accumulated information to be found on FPN is astounding, as is the traffic there.

This is what’s so appealing about FPN—the stock and flow of information. You can learn a staggering amount from the old posts. The threads on repairing pens are particularly rich and often include debate/back-and-forth as folks discuss different approaches. And while some people do appear to have left over the years, very experienced people remain who continue to expand the knowledge base. It’s invaluable. There are lots of places you can go for pretty pictures of pens or a robust discussion about different shades of orange ink. But I have not found another site that comes close to being a substitute vis-a-vis information about pens themselves, how they work, how to fix them, etc. I would certainly love if there were; like others, I find aspects of FPN to be annoying.

[Farmboy]

I think everyone should order a subscription to the PCA (and/or WES) and get paper copies of the Pennant and support the hobby that way.. Most of the information inside doesn't make it on line.

[Prettypenguin]

I gave you a thanks for that reminder, @Farmboy! I need to join- been meaning to for decades!

[USG]

It must have been the IG ink that Yazeh recently posted about at FPN. Some of it must have dripped down into the computer circuit boards and shorted something out. Remember what Mr. Scott from Star Trek said? "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." :)

Of course it could also be the yearly replacement of the hamsters powering everything.

Have a Safe New Years!

I knew it was the Hamsters !!!


Maybe we could make a group here for FPN folks to find each other.

I thought that was a good idea... now it's controversial.

I'll join... Hi Misfit

[mana]

Argh, just a reminder of how important trove of information FPN has become over the years, was looking for information on something Pelikan FP related and the google searches that looked promising all pointed to... posts at FPN. 😅

Well, despite the setback of some of the latest backups being corrupt (Dec 30 should be good to go, fingers crossed, etc.), things are progressing on that front and FPN should be back online later this week... makes me think about actually saving local copies of some of the threads there.

[karmachanic]

Over time, apps and computing technology will morph more and more to support that way of thinking / operating.

More like NOT having to think.

[~JJ]

Latest: "2022-01-05, 11:25 GMT / 06:25 EST - Restore succeeded, currently checking integrity, to be followed by maintenance."
Round the turn, coming into the home stretch!
My hope: 'Maintenance' = Classifieds fixed.
My fear: Only means the trash was cleared out.
¯\_(?)_/¯

[JulieParadise]

Yeah, it's up again! :bounce:

[~JJ]

Yeah, it's up again! :bounce:

Yeaahhh....I love the smell of Apache Sunset In the morning!
~B》

[LizEF]

More like NOT having to think.

Can't disagree with you. I've never understood why one would want to go ask a bunch of strangers instead of searching oneself. Apparently I'm old and strange, though... :)

[Sailor Kenshin]

Happy to see FPN back. Though I must add that I like G better for certain things, such as the True InkFessions and Go Go Girl posts I thought of making. 😜

[mhguda]

Happy to see them back, but I think I will step up my activity a little here, too. Not just reading, but actually posting... it is nice to have several sites to be active on about pens, paper, ink...

[TSherbs]

More like NOT having to think.

Can't disagree with you. I've never understood why one would want to go ask a bunch of strangers instead of searching oneself. Apparently I'm old and strange, though... :)

Well, one involves chatting with other humans for a social aspect. Sometimes I ask a question because someone else who has spent 10 years gaining experience and doing the research might, in 30 seconds, help me with something I need assistance with quickly. Like having a mentor, kind of. Or a licensed penspecialist :)

[LizEF]

Well, one involves chatting with other humans for a social aspect. Sometimes I ask a question because someone else who has spent 10 years gaining experience and doing the research might, in 30 seconds, help me with something I need assistance with quickly. Like having a mentor, kind of. Or a licensed penspecialist :)

What you describe is generally not what happens with the type of reddit post to which I am referring.

[TSherbs]

Well, one involves chatting with other humans for a social aspect. Sometimes I ask a question because someone else who has spent 10 years gaining experience and doing the research might, in 30 seconds, help me with something I need assistance with quickly. Like having a mentor, kind of. Or a licensed penspecialist :)

What you describe is generally not what happens with the type of reddit post to which I am referring.

Like, "Where can I buy a Metro?"?

[Sailor Kenshin]

Well, one involves chatting with other humans for a social aspect. Sometimes I ask a question because someone else who has spent 10 years gaining experience and doing the research might, in 30 seconds, help me with something I need assistance with quickly. Like having a mentor, kind of. Or a licensed penspecialist :)

What you describe is generally not what happens with the type of reddit post to which I am referring.

Like, "Where can I buy a Metro?"?

Geo Metro? I'd avoid them. 😜

[welch]

It is running fine today.

[LizEF]

Like, "Where can I buy a Metro?"?

Not far off. But often things that are easily done by going to Goulet or JetPens and using their filters, or to any site that sells ink and using their filters, or to InkSwatch.com or Mountain Of Ink... Basically, "here are my criteria, go find what I want".

[Jon Szanto]

Sometimes you have to accept a tidal change. That is why I joined r/fountainpens seven years ago: to see what a crowd of pen people, decades and decades younger than me, are all about.

Whether you want to consider the move toward crowdsourcing, or a new spin on social interaction, there is no doubt that for many of them, just going into a 'room' with thousands of people and shouting "what's the answer to my question" is a preferred approach, rather than Googling or - ick! - going to some OG website to look up information. I think about all the great and significant posts on pens, repair, inks, etc on many sites, FPN a top contender, but others, too, and then I realize that the majority of the younger players would rather pull up a YouTube video. It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

It doesn't have to make sense to me (or us) for it to be not just a trend but actually the way it is for many new pen enthusiasts. The days of the fora are slowly coming to a close.

[TSherbs]

Sometimes you have to accept a tidal change. ......The days of the fora are slowly coming to a close.

Like sands through the hourglass, so .....


https://youtu.be/Og7-6YubuS4

[Ron Z]

It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

[724Seney]

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

I think this is a very unfair characterization of a wonderful and very accomplished group of men & women. I am in regular contact with some of the most highly regarded and busiest repair professionals in the world. I am ever astounded by the time, respect and kindness they provide to me...... without ever asking for or expecting anything in return. True, these are private conversations and not posts on some public forum but some things are better addressed in a 1:1 manner.

[LizEF]

I've seen more than one post on reddit asking how one goes about learning to be a nib meister or repair person (from the text, these aren't people looking to fix just their own pens, these are people who want to do this as a profession). The only advice I can think of for them is to contact the nearest one and ask if they'll accept an apprentice. It's not like there's an actual school out there with a degree program... (In other words, I sure hope professional repair people are passing their knowledge on to *someone*.)

[Jon Szanto]

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

I think this is a very unfair characterization of a wonderful and very accomplished group of men & women. I am in regular contact with some of the most highly regarded and busiest repair professionals in the world. I am ever astounded by the time, respect and kindness they provide to me...... without ever asking for or expecting anything in return. True, these are private conversations and not posts on some public forum but some things are better addressed in a 1:1 manner.

I think it is quite likely that Ron, a member of that "wonderful and very accomplished group" himself, was referring to the online sharing of information, not the personal connections and sharing as you stated. I won't speak for him, of course, but it might be that the two of you are addressing slightly different modes of sharing of this valuable information.

[Ron Z]

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

I think this is a very unfair characterization of a wonderful and very accomplished group of men & women. I am in regular contact with some of the most highly regarded and busiest repair professionals in the world. I am ever astounded by the time, respect and kindness they provide to me...... without ever asking for or expecting anything in return. True, these are private conversations and not posts on some public forum but some things are better addressed in a 1:1 manner.

But they usually aren't doing it on a pen board. There is value in providing repair information that can be found, and questions answered, for someone new to pens or repairing.

[724Seney]

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

I think this is a very unfair characterization of a wonderful and very accomplished group of men & women. I am in regular contact with some of the most highly regarded and busiest repair professionals in the world. I am ever astounded by the time, respect and kindness they provide to me...... without ever asking for or expecting anything in return. True, these are private conversations and not posts on some public forum but some things are better addressed in a 1:1 manner.

But they usually aren't doing it on a pen board. There is value in providing repair information that can be found, and questions answered, for someone new to pens or repairing.

Well, to your point, scroll up a couple of posts to #145 where @Jon Szanto says " It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed."
To borrow his words, "I won't speak for him" but I take that comment to mean he thinks that just because someone posts repair information on a board does not mean that it is of any value whatsoever.
And, if this interpretation of what he is saying is correct, I would agree 100%. I've seen some really bad advice offered on pen boards as though it were the gospel. Speaking for myself, I'd rather have no advice than bad advice.
The people I am referring to are very dedicated, generous people who know what they are talking about..........I am deeply grateful to them for their time & kindness. Perhaps their approach to sharing their knowledge is different from others but that does not make their contributions any less valuable to the pen community.

[Jon Szanto]

Well, to your point, scroll up a couple of posts to #145 where @Jon Szanto says " It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed."
To borrow his words, "I won't speak for him" but I take that comment to mean he thinks that just because someone posts repair information on a board does not mean that it is of any value whatsoever.
And, if this interpretation of what he is saying is correct, I would agree 100%. I've seen some really bad advice offered on pen boards as though it were the gospel. Speaking for myself, I'd rather have no advice than bad advice.

Um... that wasn't what I was thinking. My comment about the quality of pen repair videos was in line with my earlier point about the change in the dissemination of information. The use of videos primarily post-dates the era of people posting pen repair info in forums and mailing lists. In those scenarios, as long as there was an active audience, there could (and often was) a give and take on methodologies and approaches.

With a video presentation, while there may be a comment section, rarely does it get used for dialog between presenter and viewers, and I would hazard to guess that most don't even look. So when a new pen person buys, say, an old Parker at a flea market and looks up "Bonzo the Pernman" on YouTube to find out how to replace a diaphragm, all bets are off. It's like so much else in the world at the moment: lots of misinformation.

I have no doubt there are still really good repair people out there, though I worry that the supply will dwindle, and that probably is just how things go. But we don't have many alternatives to Richard Binder's site, or the "Pen Repair" book, and Repair sections on older forums did fill that void with good pen repair advice.

It's a marvelous situation if you can have face-to-face connections and relationships with a pen repair or restoration person, but the opportunities for that are rare for anyone but the lucky few who live in big cities, etc, where they still do their business. The ability to access reliable, safe information in this regard is online access for most people these days, and so the manner with which it is dispensed - especially without any discussion - is something to consider.

Good gods I type too much...

[724Seney]

Well, to your point, scroll up a couple of posts to #145 where @Jon Szanto says " It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed."
To borrow his words, "I won't speak for him" but I take that comment to mean he thinks that just because someone posts repair information on a board does not mean that it is of any value whatsoever.
And, if this interpretation of what he is saying is correct, I would agree 100%. I've seen some really bad advice offered on pen boards as though it were the gospel. Speaking for myself, I'd rather have no advice than bad advice.

Um... that wasn't what I was thinking. My comment about the quality of pen repair videos was in line with my earlier point about the change in the dissemination of information. The use of videos primarily post-dates the era of people posting pen repair info in forums and mailing lists. In those scenarios, as long as there was an active audience, there could (and often was) a give and take on methodologies and approaches.

With a video presentation, while there may be a comment section, rarely does it get used for dialog between presenter and viewers, and I would hazard to guess that most don't even look. So when a new pen person buys, say, an old Parker at a flea market and looks up "Bonzo the Pernman" on YouTube to find out how to replace a diaphragm, all bets are off. It's like so much else in the world at the moment: lots of misinformation.

I have no doubt there are still really good repair people out there, though I worry that the supply will dwindle, and that probably is just how things go. But we don't have many alternatives to Richard Binder's site, or the "Pen Repair" book, and Repair sections on older forums did fill that void with good pen repair advice.

It's a marvelous situation if you can have face-to-face connections and relationships with a pen repair or restoration person, but the opportunities for that are rare for anyone but the lucky few who live in big cities, etc, where they still do their business. The ability to access reliable, safe information in this regard is online access for most people these days, and so the manner with which it is dispensed - especially without any discussion - is something to consider.

Good gods I type too much...

I have no disagreement(s) with these thoughts and share your concern about the dwindling supply of good repair people. But, I do not think the solution to that concern is a person's making posts on line. I am more in agreement with @LizEF's laser sharp comment in post #149. She says "I sure hope professional repair people are passing their knowledge on to *someone*." Maybe we can agree that this type of activity would really be of "value"....... and far more so than just some online posts?

Finally, I am unable to resolve the paradox of your suggesting that online posts as the answer to the preservation of important repair information when, in the same post (#153), you correctly observe "So when a new pen person buys, say, an old Parker at a flea market and looks up "Bonzo the Pernman" on YouTube to find out how to replace a diaphragm, all bets are off." I agree with that comment. And, so, I would like to know how you think someone, and especially the "new pen person" is supposed to know what is good information and what is bad guidance when they make their search? Not to mention whether the poster of that information is even a well regarded pen repair person; if even a bonafide pen repair person at all?

IMO, the suggestion that one can assess a pen repair person's "value added" to the community by the frequency of his or her online posts is not valid.

[Jon Szanto]

@724Seney:

I wish I had an answer to your question, I really do. I don't know a way, at this moment, for new people to know what is valid and what isn't, regarding quality pen repair concepts. I do what I can to point people to either good source info or to professionals who can work on their pens. As to a long-term solution, I don't have an answer.

[FredRydr]

...I am in regular contact with some of the most highly regarded and busiest repair professionals in the world. I am ever astounded by the time, respect and kindness they provide to me...... without ever asking for or expecting anything in return....
Fantastic! Please list them here so that we may benefit from their skill, and they can benefit from our custom.

[724Seney]

@724Seney:

I wish I had an answer to your question, I really do. I don't know a way, at this moment, for new people to know what is valid and what isn't, regarding quality pen repair concepts. I do what I can to point people to either good source info or to professionals who can work on their pens. As to a long-term solution, I don't have an answer.

Which takes us full circle back to my initial "push back" over @Ron Zorn's comment in post #147 and his subsequent follow-up comment in his post # 151. IMO his comments represent an unfair characterization of his professional colleagues, many of whom follow the posts here and on FPG but choose not to reply.

I realize what I am about to say is a pure anecdote........ but I do want to mention I know for a fact one of those professional colleagues will PM someone from time to time if he feels he has some helpful information to offer or strongly disagrees with a recommendation which others have "seconded," so to speak. To me, that's "value."

And, yes, I do the same as you. ("point people to either good source info or to professionals who can work on their pens.")

[724Seney]

...I am in regular contact with some of the most highly regarded and busiest repair professionals in the world. I am ever astounded by the time, respect and kindness they provide to me...... without ever asking for or expecting anything in return....
Fantastic! Please list them here so that we may benefit from their skill, and they can benefit from our custom.

And start a major pissing match over who is or is not mentioned??
Not a chance...........!!!!!!!
I respond to PMs and always welcome them from someone who is looking for my advice or opinion.
And, in the end, that's all it is.....my advice or opinion. People can take it or leave it.

[Ron Z]

Oh good grief.

[Jon Szanto]

Yeah, I'm done.

[Farmboy]

Happy to see them back, but I think I will step up my activity a little here, too. Not just reading, but actually posting... it is nice to have several sites to be active on about pens, paper, ink...

I applaud this action. You are a good example.

[Farmboy]

It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

It has been my observation that the people that really know what they are doing long ago got tired of being told they were wrong by people that have read about restoring a pen and watched a how-to video or two and simply left.

But I only repair restored pens so I keep the queue manageable.

[PithyProlix]

Sometimes you have to accept a tidal change. That is why I joined r/fountainpens seven years ago: to see what a crowd of pen people, decades and decades younger than me, are all about.

Whether you want to consider the move toward crowdsourcing, or a new spin on social interaction, there is no doubt that for many of them, just going into a 'room' with thousands of people and shouting "what's the answer to my question" is a preferred approach, rather than Googling or - ick! - going to some OG website to look up information. I think about all the great and significant posts on pens, repair, inks, etc on many sites, FPN a top contender, but others, too, and then I realize that the majority of the younger players would rather pull up a YouTube video. It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

It doesn't have to make sense to me (or us) for it to be not just a trend but actually the way it is for many new pen enthusiasts. The days of the fora are slowly coming to a close.

I wonder. Many fountain pen enthusiasts tend to be a different (some might say 'weird' ...) lot and, by nature of our subject of interest, our lot is both a bit backward-looking technologically and focused on text communication. I'm also willing to bet that we tend to be significantly more literate that the average, say, reddit or Facebook user, and, personally, I'd rather spend my time conversing with folks on places like FPG & FPN due to the quality and depth of conversations as well as the personalities of the more literate and (dare I say) smarter (all in all) people here and on FPN. I, for one, use Facebook and reddit for reading & writing about fountain pen stuff but much prefer the Internet forums, not only because of the depth and quality of conversation, but also the personal relationships that naturally come about with people who tend to be of significantly (dare I say again) greater depth and higher quality than the average social media user who is interested in fountain pens.

I also think Internet forums serve their audiences well, all in all, in a way that other social media methods do not. Internet forums are direct descendants of the pre-Internet, pre-GUI, text-based-OS bulletin board systems (BBSs). (Note the software used here is called vBulletin. Other popular internet forum software includes, among others, MyBB - formerly called MyBulletinBoard - and phpBB, an abbreviation of 'php Bulletin Board'). Common, notable features of many BBSs were message boards and chat rooms and, being purely text-based, they were conducive to written conversation. Current Internet forums, such as this one, are chiefly designed to support written conversation. Sure, non-superficial conversations can and do happen on places like Facebook and reddit but their UIs are not as optimized for quality conversation as is Internet forum software.

IMHO, if Internet forums are going to go away, it's because they do not generate anywhere close to the revenue that other types of social media generate - those other types are much more optimized for advertising, which is where the money is on the Internet. And because the money is there, they tend to be much more robust platforms technologically, and are not nearly as fragile as Internet forums (this recent smallish crash and previous big crash of FPN being examples).

[christof]

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.



This is my observation too, and it's exactly the same when it comes to pen photography.

But some of the professionals are very generous with sharing their knowledge when asked directly. I learned a lot about american pens from Richard Binder and from Tom Westerich and Francis Goossens about european pens.

[724Seney]

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.



This is my observation too, and it's exactly the same when it comes to pen photography.

But some of the professionals are very generous with sharing their knowledge when asked directly. I learned a lot about american pens from Richard Binder and from Tom Westerich and Francis Goossens about european pens.

I, too, agree 100% with all that @Farmboy and @christof have said.

[TSherbs]

Sometimes you have to accept a tidal change. That is why I joined r/fountainpens seven years ago: to see what a crowd of pen people, decades and decades younger than me, are all about.

Whether you want to consider the move toward crowdsourcing, or a new spin on social interaction, there is no doubt that for many of them, just going into a 'room' with thousands of people and shouting "what's the answer to my question" is a preferred approach, rather than Googling or - ick! - going to some OG website to look up information. I think about all the great and significant posts on pens, repair, inks, etc on many sites, FPN a top contender, but others, too, and then I realize that the majority of the younger players would rather pull up a YouTube video. It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

It doesn't have to make sense to me (or us) for it to be not just a trend but actually the way it is for many new pen enthusiasts. The days of the fora are slowly coming to a close.

I wonder. Many fountain pen enthusiasts tend to be a different (some might say 'weird' ...) lot and, by nature of our subject of interest, our lot is both a bit backward-looking technologically and focused on text communication. I'm also willing to bet that we tend to be significantly more literate that the average, say, reddit or Facebook user, and, personally, I'd rather spend my time conversing with folks on places like FPG & FPN due to the quality and depth of conversations as well as the personalities of the more literate and (dare I say) smarter (all in all) people here and on FPN. I, for one, use Facebook and reddit for reading & writing about fountain pen stuff but much prefer the Internet forums, not only because of the depth and quality of conversation, but also the personal relationships that naturally come about with people who tend to be of significantly (dare I say again) greater depth and higher quality than the average social media user who is interested in fountain pens.

I also think Internet forums serve their audiences well, all in all, in a way that other social media methods do not. Internet forums are direct descendants of the pre-Internet, pre-GUI, text-based-OS bulletin board systems (BBSs). (Note the software used here is called vBulletin. Other popular internet forum software includes, among others, MyBB - formerly called MyBulletinBoard - and phpBB, an abbreviation of 'php Bulletin Board'). Common, notable features of many BBSs were message boards and chat rooms and, being purely text-based, they were conducive to written conversation. Current Internet forums, such as this one, are chiefly designed to support written conversation. Sure, non-superficial conversations can and do happen on places like Facebook and reddit but their UIs are not as optimized for quality conversation as is Internet forum software.

IMHO, if Internet forums are going to go away, it's because they do not generate anywhere close to the revenue that other types of social media generate - those other types are much more optimized for advertising, which is where the money is on the Internet. And because the money is there, they tend to be much more robust platforms technologically, and are not nearly as fragile as Internet forums (this recent smallish crash and previous big crash of FPN being examples).

Well put.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Really tired of all the pointless bickering over nothing and personal attacks. Sorry I ever started this thread.

You pleasant, well-spoken people know who you are.

[LizEF]

...I also think Internet forums serve their audiences well, all in all, in a way that other social media methods do not. ...

Well put. I think the above is key, and those for whom forums are an ideal medium will find them and stay, though it may take young people a while to find them. Personally, I suspect that most of the people drawn to forums are introverts - it suits our inherent nature. And I still suspect that if there were an app (even if the app was essentially a mobile browser form of the forum), it would help draw in younger users. Hmm. What would be really cool is if some really clever soul created an app with "channels" - one for r/fountainpens, one for FPN, and one for FPG, etc. (Doesn't seem likely, but it would be cool.) :)

[TSherbs]

...I also think Internet forums serve their audiences well, all in all, in a way that other social media methods do not. ...

Well put. I think the above is key, and those for whom forums are an ideal medium will find them and stay, though it may take young people a while to find them. Personally, I suspect that most of the people drawn to forums are introverts - it suits our inherent nature. And I still suspect that if there were an app (even if the app was essentially a mobile browser form of the forum), it would help draw in younger users. Hmm. What would be really cool is if some really clever soul created an app with "channels" - one for r/fountainpens, one for FPN, and one for FPG, etc. (Doesn't seem likely, but it would be cool.) :)

Tappatalk app does run FPGeeks, but I repeatedly get frustrated by it and abandon it....

[724Seney]

Tappatalk app does run FPGeeks, but I repeatedly get frustrated by it and abandon it....

+1
It's awful.

[LizEF]

And, we're back, by which I mean, that other place is down for further repairs, presumably related to image uploads. :D

[TSherbs]

We worship the same gods over here. Just no deacons shushing the loudmouths.... ;)

[JulieParadise]

We worship the same gods over here. Just no deacons shushing the loudmouths.... ;)

If it was that harmless. I experienced harassing PMs while I was more active here a while ago, and since this is a hobby thing and nothing I have to endure (as sometimes you have to put up with certain people in job or family situations), I gladly prefer having a bit more moderation.

[mana]

…and down again. Oooooooh well, such is life. I think I will go and play with my pens and inks. Or just go to bed early 😅

[TSherbs]

We worship the same gods over here. Just no deacons shushing the loudmouths.... ;)

If it was that harmless. I experienced harassing PMs while I was more active here a while ago, and since this is a hobby thing and nothing I have to endure (as sometimes you have to put up with certain people in job or family situations), I gladly prefer having a bit more moderation.

I understand and am with you 100% on that wish. I have told people here that harassment goes on, I have explained that some folks leave because they haven't felt "safe," and I have written the owner to ask for intervention and change. And here we are. I tried a bit of levity here to smooth things down a bit. I didn't mean to trivialize what I know is a real problem at times.

[christof]

…and down again. Oooooooh well, such is life. I think I will go and play with my pens and inks. Or just go to bed early 😅

why don't you stay a little longer?
we enthusiasts of vintage Pelikan are somewhat underrepresented here…

[mana]

…aaaaaand back up again 👌🏻

[mana]

…and down again. Oooooooh well, such is life. I think I will go and play with my pens and inks. Or just go to bed early 😅

why don't you stay a little longer?
we enthusiasts of vintage Pelikan are somewhat underrepresented here…

Maybe I should start posting more here too… ;) For example, I am waiting for the arrival of a mint/really good condition copy of ”Günther Wagner 1838-1938”, the 100th Anniversary book that wasn’t commercially available.

Planning on doing a mini-review of sorts, plus repro/scan some of the more interesting images (it should contain a series of photos that detail various stages of Pelikan fountain pen manufacturing). Just need to resort to google translate as I do not know German, might slow things a bit… :D

Anyhoo… wouldn’t be that much of a chore to post about new purchases, etc. here too, and liven the Pelikan subforum a bit.

[Jon Szanto]

I wonder. Many fountain pen enthusiasts...

I agree with many things you said in the quoted post (which I did not include in full). Not only that, you express many of the same reasons that I continue to actively participate in OG forums. However, my point was not what motivates me (or you), but what I see as trends in the younger, growing audience for fountain pens.

I'll hazard a guess, Pithy, that you are not under 30 years of age. I don't think we have many active members here (on FPN) in that category. I'm willing to bet that, across the board, the active population of FPN users skews older, as well. We are not of the generation that walks around staring into their phone all day... because that is the device they use to interact with the world. It is no surprise that fountain pen users under 40, certainly under 30, are moving to platforms that closely mimic their other personal and informational interactions. Brief, shallow, quick.

I think it is ultimately a loss, but the decline in number of users of the older platforms is pretty well documented at this point. FPN has 122k members, and r/fountainpens (Reddit) has 250k, on a site that has existed for a significantly shorter period. How many are active is always a question, but it is something that at least needs to be acknowledged.

I know what helps me, motivates me, educates me, and illuminates my life with fountain pens, and those experiences are found in primarily older forms of communication (including hand-written letters!). My interest is also being aware of how this is changing for a younger group of enthusiasts, and how old forms might match better with their contemporary behaviors and sensibilities.

[christof]

…and down again. Oooooooh well, such is life. I think I will go and play with my pens and inks. Or just go to bed early 😅

why don't you stay a little longer?
we enthusiasts of vintage Pelikan are somewhat underrepresented here…

Maybe I should start posting more here too… ;) For example, I am waiting for the arrival of a mint/really good condition copy of ”Günther Wagner 1838-1938”, the 100th Anniversary book that wasn’t commercially available.

Planning on doing a mini-review of sorts, plus repro/scan some of the more interesting images (it should contain a series of photos that detail various stages of Pelikan fountain pen manufacturing). Just need to resort to google translate as I do not know German, might slow things a bit… :D

Anyhoo… wouldn’t be thst much of a chore to post about new purchases, etc. here too, and liven the Pelikan subforum a bit.

that would be great!
no problems with german here. will offer my help.

[mana]

…and down again. Oooooooh well, such is life. I think I will go and play with my pens and inks. Or just go to bed early 😅

why don't you stay a little longer?
we enthusiasts of vintage Pelikan are somewhat underrepresented here…

Maybe I should start posting more here too… ;) For example, I am waiting for the arrival of a mint/really good condition copy of ”Günther Wagner 1838-1938”, the 100th Anniversary book that wasn’t commercially available.

Planning on doing a mini-review of sorts, plus repro/scan some of the more interesting images (it should contain a series of photos that detail various stages of Pelikan fountain pen manufacturing). Just need to resort to google translate as I do not know German, might slow things a bit… :D

Anyhoo… wouldn’t be thst much of a chore to post about new purchases, etc. here too, and liven the Pelikan subforum a bit.

that would be great!
no problems with german here. will offer my help.

Thanks! :)

[PithyProlix]

I agree with many things you said in the quoted post (which I did not include in full). Not only that, you express many of the same reasons that I continue to actively participate in OG forums. However, my point was not what motivates me (or you), but what I see as trends in the younger, growing audience for fountain pens.

And I was totally on board with your great post until the last sentence, "The days of the fora are slowly coming to a close." (By the way, props for your proper Latin declension! :)) I think forums [smirk] will continue alongside other types of social media platforms. Or perhaps there is future technology that will better enable in-depth written discussion better than Internet forums do now. I bet many of the r/fountainpens users, etc. who stick with the hobby will eventually end up at FPG and/or FPN (and/or other fp forums - e.g. the ones in China, France, Italy, etc.). They are easy enough to find - almost any Google search for fountain pen information has multiple results from FPN at or near the top and likely include links to valuable information from FPG as well).




I'll hazard a guess, Pithy, that you are not under 30 years of age. I don't think we have many active members here (on FPN) in that category. I'm willing to bet that, across the board, the active population of FPN users skews older, as well. We are not of the generation that walks around staring into their phone all day... because that is the device they use to interact with the world. It is no surprise that fountain pen users under 40, certainly under 30, are moving to platforms that closely mimic their other personal and informational interactions. Brief, shallow, quick.

Re: my age - you'd have to add another 20 years to that and you still wouldn't be there. :D (I remember growing up with a 1200 baud modem with a regular phone handset you had to place on top, just so we could get on BBSs, play text-based games like Adventure and Star Trek, and eventually get on usenet newsgroups. And we liked it! :D)

Those younger users will age. Let's hope that many of them will mature beyond the 'brief, shallow, quick' dopamine-driven superficiality that Facebook, etc. affords (and not just in the fountain pen world but everywhere!). If not, I'm afraid the future doesn't look too bright. And the science seems to be showing that those kinds of social media platforms are bad for our psychological health ...

BTW, I almost forgot: text-based Google Groups, a legacy of usenet newgroups, is also still going strong too. I'm a classical music recordings fan and, for the best discussion by far, Google Groups is where its at, for instance.



I think it is ultimately a loss, but the decline in number of users of the older platforms is pretty well documented at this point. FPN has 122k members, and r/fountainpens (Reddit) has 250k, on a site that has existed for a significantly shorter period. How many are active is always a question, but it is something that at least needs to be acknowledged.


I'll always take quality over quantity. But, yes, a greater volume of quality would be better.



I know what helps me, motivates me, educates me, and illuminates my life with fountain pens, and those experiences are found in primarily older forms of communication (including hand-written letters!). My interest is also being aware of how this is changing for a younger group of enthusiasts, and how old forms might match better with their contemporary behaviors and sensibilities.

It's encouraging to me that book reading (and listening) seems to still be going strong, at least according to this slightly dated Gallup poll (https://news.gallup.com/poll/201644/rumors-demise-books-greatly-exaggerated.aspx) (Rumors of the Demise of Books Greatly Exaggerated). And, according to this poll, young adults - 18-29 year-olds - are the heaviest readers (though the article does say that it is possibly due to required reading at colleges).

Thanks for the nice discussion. Now I have to stop procrastinating and clean up this train wreck which my desk is buried under ... :)

[es9]

It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

Do you know why that is, Ron? Reading back through old posts both here and at FPN, you really do notice a number of incredibly knowledgeable folks who just seem to have disappeared.

[724Seney]

It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

Do you know why that is, Ron? Reading back through old posts both here and at FPN, you really do notice a number of incredibly knowledgeable folks who just seem to have disappeared.

Back in post # 162 of this thread @farmboy provided the correct explanation.
He said: "It has been my observation that the people that really know what they are doing long ago got tired of being told they were wrong by people that have read about restoring a pen and watched a how-to video or two and simply left."
I recall some of those very off putting posts and was, quite frankly, horrified by the lack of respect shown to these masters. It was no wonder to me why they left.

[RobJohnson]

It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

Do you know why that is, Ron? Reading back through old posts both here and at FPN, you really do notice a number of incredibly knowledgeable folks who just seem to have disappeared.

Back in post # 162 of this thread @farmboy provided the correct explanation.
He said: "It has been my observation that the people that really know what they are doing long ago got tired of being told they were wrong by people that have read about restoring a pen and watched a how-to video or two and simply left."
I recall some of those very off putting posts and was, quite frankly, horrified by the lack of respect shown to these masters. It was no wonder to me why they left.

Exactly, if a dog is kicked every time it comes to say hello it will soon stop coming.

[dneal]

The opposite is probably true as well. People being told they can't do things because (insert litany of reasons...) might feel like the proverbial kicked dog as well.

We're talking about late 19th / early 20th century technology. A carved dowel tightly fitted to a tube, holding a shaped piece of metal. It works via 6th grade science concepts of capillary action and atmospheric equilibrium. It's hardly rocket science.

How many pens do you think the professionals ruined along the route of gaining experience?

Sure you shouldn't start at the bottom of the learning curve with your expensive limited edition, or pristine vintage fancy writing stick (which is still basically a dowel fitted into a tube). There are plenty of cheap, near ruined, essentially disposable pens out there. They're not holy relics.

If the hobby is one of encouragement and enthusiasm for these fancy writing sticks, perhaps encouragement and enthusiasm for repairing them should be part of it as well - with fair warning of the potential costs/downsides.

Rarely do we see "here's a better way". More commonly we see "you can't do that, send it to...". I cheer on the KBeezies, who ignored "you can't do that" and shared their journey, with the minor and major failures and triumphs.

[TSherbs]

Wim has announced another shut down tonight

[penwash]

The opposite is probably true as well. People being told they can't do things because (insert litany of reasons...) might feel like the proverbial kicked dog as well.

We're talking about late 19th / early 20th century technology. A carved dowel tightly fitted to a tube, holding a shaped piece of metal. It works via 6th grade science concepts of capillary action and atmospheric equilibrium. It's hardly rocket science.

How many pens do you think the professionals ruined along the route of gaining experience?

Sure you shouldn't start at the bottom of the learning curve with your expensive limited edition, or pristine vintage fancy writing stick (which is still basically a dowel fitted into a tube). There are plenty of cheap, near ruined, essentially disposable pens out there. They're not holy relics.

If the hobby is one of encouragement and enthusiasm for these fancy writing sticks, perhaps encouragement and enthusiasm for repairing them should be part of it as well - with fair warning of the potential costs/downsides.

Rarely do we see "here's a better way". More commonly we see "you can't do that, send it to...". I cheer on the KBeezies, who ignored "you can't do that" and shared their journey, with the minor and major failures and triumphs.

An ICE car is also a late 19th century technology. I mean, it's a few pressure chambers connected to gears and wheels, right?
But I recently saw a nicely made video where a proud owner of an Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider (Veloce version) showcase the car, driving it around...

And I loved it. The video I mean, not to mention imagining if I own the car. There is something attractive about restoring vintage things that sparks imagination and enjoyment.

To me, vintage fountain pens are not just writing sticks or "a dowel fitted into a tube". They are much more than that.

If you keep your perspective, it is your right to do so, but you can't use that perspective to "get" why certain people love to restore these. Not just curious, but actually love it.

:)

[dneal]

Thank you for allowing me my perspective, but I'm afraid you've misunderstood it.

It's the simplicity of the thing, which is indeed a carved dowel (feed) shoved in a barrel (reservoir) with a bit of metal (nib) to direct flow. The eyedropper is the fundamental principle. We've updated materials, and reservoir (mainly for filling), but we haven't added mass airflow sensors, or heated and cooled sections. Maybe one day we will get some sort of heads-up display that we could trace and improve our penmanship, but I don't see it any time soon.

There aren't really any analogies needed to describe such a simple thing. I appreciate it for what it is and does in that 6th-grade science project sense. I get that people love to restore them - and are not just curious. I think you're finding disagreement where there is none.

The point I am making is that it doesn't have to be limited to a few experts, which is often the refrain. "Don't do anything! Send it to (insert name)!" That's good advice in a great many cases. But similarly there are cases where people enjoy (and even come to love) repairing things. Making something work that didn't previously, or making it work better. They have to learn somehow, and are frequently rewarded with criticism for trying (or even asking).

[Ray-VIgo]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

[dneal]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

[Farmboy]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

Most of it is emails and PMs.

[karmachanic]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

Most of it is emails and PMs.


One is not required to respond to either. Don't feed them and they'll go away.

[bunnspecial]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

Most of it is emails and PMs.


One is not required to respond to either. Don't feed them and they'll go away.
And you’re a fine one to talk about nasty PMs

[Ray-VIgo]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

The one that particularly came to mind was the dispute involving the grandmia shellac snorkel repair that ultimately was closed.

[christof]

Just recently I got involved in a discussion on FPN that went strongly in the direction of "wanting to be right". Fortunately Rick Propas jumped in and I was able to get out just in time. But it did remind me why I put my posts there a few years ago.

[bunnspecial]

Just recently I got involved in a discussion on FPN that went strongly in the direction of "wanting to be right". Fortunately Rick Propas jumped in and I was able to get out just in time. But it did remind me why I put my posts there a few years ago.

I don't know very much about Pelikan history and don't actively collect them, but always appreciate the knowledgeable and informed post of you and others.

I have been collecting old/antique things for a while, though. It's inevitable that anomalies occur, and it it is on the modern collector to see if it can be explained as a factory original, period repair, or a modern switch. We see this a lot in American pocket watches. I love the weird, strange, and unexpected and after a while you do develop a bit of a "sense" about what could be original and what likely isn't. Some are easily explained from known practices-as an example it's known that employees of most companies were permitted to buy unfinished parts inexpensively and could assemble into their own watches. Some will have only slight changes from factory such as upjeweling or a different finish while others are over-the-top changes unlike anything otherwise seen. These "employee watches" can sometimes be difficult to spot, and the more subtle ones often are down to quality of workmanship to determine if they were made that way or a later modification. Some are more obvious.

In any case, though, is that I've seen in some of these Pelikan discussions that one particular person seems to find "factory" anomalies that could easily be explained by later repairs or part replacement. When it's the same person consistently turning them up and then getting defensive when questioned about them(such as piston seals or the like)...well I find it suspicious. I know a bit about Montblancs, and the person I'm thinking of has a 149 with a split ebonite feed on a pen that dates to about 10 years before that feed was known to be used. I questioned whether that could be a service replacement(knowing that MB will often update to the most current part when servicing a pen) as was rather nasty and belligerently told that was not possible as they had bought the pen new and seemed insulted that I'd done anything but blindly accept the originality of their pen. I still remain skeptical that the part would have appeared 10 years before it's been documented anywhere else(especially as MB considered it an improvement and it defies any common sense that they would have randomly installed it on a production pen and then waited 10 years before adopting it wholesale...).

That's just my observation, though.