Trump indicted

[TSherbs]

Charges under seal so far.

[dneal]

"WE'VE GOT HIM NOW!!!"

[Chip]

https://i.imgur.com/8uQ55Mg.jpg

[Chuck Naill]

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice" MLK

It was the grand jury which brought to indictment, not one person working alone.

And, what we now know is that he would not be able to shoot someone in Times Square and get away with it.

[dneal]

If Trump gets re-elected, thank Alvin Bragg for trumping up a misdemeanor (that is past the statute of limitations) into a felony, using a convicted perjurer as a key witness.

-edit-

You guys missed this op-ed.

WashPost: The Trump indictment is a poor test case for prosecuting a former president (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/03/30/trump-indictment-new-york/)

[Chuck Naill]

The problem is that Mr. Trump more resembles Al Capone than Abraham Lincoln.

There is precedent however...LOL!!
"When he was stopped by West, the Star said, Grant “was driving a pair of fast steppers and he had some difficulty in halting them, but this he managed to do”.

The president asked: “Well, officer. What do you want with me?”

Like Bragg, William H West, was also an African American and additionally a CW Veteran.
West said: “I want to inform you, Mr President, that you are violating the law by speeding along this street. Your fast driving, sir, has set the example for a lot of other gentlemen.”

Grant said sorry and left. The next day, however, he did it again.

According to the Star, Grant smiled like “a schoolboy who had been caught in a guilty act by a teacher” and said he had not been aware he was traveling too fast.

West said: “I am very sorry, Mr President, to have to do it, for you are the chief of the nation, and I am nothing but a policeman, but duty is duty, sir, and I will have to place you under arrest.”


Grant was taken to a police station and ordered to pay $20. A trial was held the next day, with numerous cases against speeding drivers “contested bitterly”. A judge issued heavy fines and a “scathing rebuke”.

Grant, however, did not show up."


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/22/ulysses-s-grant-arrest-speeding-horse-drawn-carriage

[724Seney]

https://i.imgur.com/8uQ55Mg.jpg

The insanely moronic Stooge brothers are so "woke," they are sound asleep at the switch.
In spite of their collective glee, most people, to include many thoughtful persons on the left, see what has transpired as one of America's darkest days.
The door trying to keep the weaponization of our legal system has now been blown wide open and what is going to follow is not good.
Forget about Russia and China folks.....WE have become our own worst enemies.

[TSherbs]

And, what we now know is that he would not be able to shoot someone in Times Square and get away with it.

That'd be nice, but I am not convinced yet that this will happen. I suppose that I will only believe it when I see it. I hope so, though. I can't wait until the media circus on Tuesday <eyeroll>. I have come to hedge all bets around Trump. I heard that a grand jury has to individually sign off on each and every count of a case. If there are 30+ counts, then I trust that they took their time and look at all the evidence presented to them so far and determined "probable cause" 30+ times. Yikes.

So, tried for impeachment twice, and now indicted. At some point you'd think that the effort to spin this as Trump being victimized would wear thin. But Trump is a master of spin and manipulation, so maybe we have not seen the limits of his power in this regard. Yet.

[dneal]

At some point you'd think that the effort to spin this as Trump being victimized would wear thin.

The WashPost is spinning this? Alan Dershowitz is spinning this?

They'll of course now be plastered as "alt-right", by the fringe left who consider themselves objective centrists.

[Chuck Naill]

At some point you'd think that the effort to spin this as Trump being victimized would wear thin.

The WashPost is spinning this? Alan Dershowitz is spinning this?

They'll of course now be plastered as "alt-right", by the fringe left who consider themselves objective centrists.

Just asking, is there anything Trump has done, that you've known about from your reading, that you feel he does not bear some sense of being held responsible? Pick your favorite infraction. Would you tolerate Trump's behavior if it was one of us doing it?

[Chuck Naill]

Some have suggested that Mr. Bragg should focus on more important matters. Do any of those more important matters have the capability of harming American democracy?

I guess for me, the question is, is anyone above the law. If you say yes, who?

[Chuck Naill]

From his niece, https://www.newsweek.com/mary-trump-celebrates-uncle-donald-indictment-1791750

I read her first book.

[TSherbs]

Some have suggested that Mr. Bragg should focus on more important matters. Do any of those more important matters have the capability of harming American democracy?

I guess for me, the question is, is anyone above the law. If you say yes, who?

Trump deserves everything he gets. He drives a trailer loaded with the transgressions of his past, his denials and lies, labeled clearly on the side with a big "I dare you to do anything about it" unfurled on a banner above it all, pays lawyers and other toadies to manage the shit that falls off and take the blame for him. You gotta kinda think he deserves being told by DAs that they're tired of having to deal with all the suits and damages from the fallout from his behaviors and decisions. He's a crass, huckster Ozymandias, and the sands are encroaching on his palace grounds.

[724Seney]

Some have suggested that Mr. Bragg should focus on more important matters. Do any of those more important matters have the capability of harming American democracy?

I guess for me, the question is, is anyone above the law. If you say yes, who?

Trump deserves everything he gets. He drives a trailer loaded with the transgressions of his past, his denials and lies, labeled clearly on the side with a big "I dare you to do anything about it" unfurled on a banner above it all, pays lawyers and other toadies to manage the shit that falls off and take the blame for him. You gotta kinda think he deserves being told by DAs that they're tired of having to deal with all the suits and damages from the fallout from his behaviors and decisions. He's a crass, huckster Ozymandias, and the sands are encroaching on his palace grounds.

Substitute the word Biden or any of a number of others. The validity of the rant remains the same.
And now they, too, will all be indicted.
What a waste of people's time and taxpayer resources.

[dneal]

At some point you'd think that the effort to spin this as Trump being victimized would wear thin.

The WashPost is spinning this? Alan Dershowitz is spinning this?

They'll of course now be plastered as "alt-right", by the fringe left who consider themselves objective centrists.
Just asking, is there anything Trump has done, that you've known about from your reading, that you feel he does not bear some sense of being held responsible? Pick your favorite infraction. Would you tolerate Trump's behavior if it was one of us doing it?

I see lots of accusations. I see little evidence. My surprise remains that no one has successfully prosecuted him yet.

It's no small feat that he survived Mueller. That was Andrew Weissman - one of the most vicious and unethical prosecutors we've ever had. He basically had carte blanche to look at anything - and Trump survived that with "although we can't exonerate him..." as the most damning statement.

If he was gonna get got, that was the guy who should have been able to do it, but he didn't. Amazing.

I spent some time wondering what the explanation for that was, and recently I think I stumbled across it.

There's a really bright and interesting young woman who recently published a two-volume work on corruption. 1000 pages of research. I haven't finished it yet, but it mentions Roy Cohn. Wikipedia has a decent article with his general history. He was a prosecutor that was McCarthy's chief counsel (rooting out communists, etc...). He went on to be a New York "fixer" (introductions, whose hand to grease, etc...).

He reportedly mentored Trump, and definitely represented him legally. Cohn is the type of guy who would know every possible way the government could get you (see: 3 felonies a day, or "show me the guy and I'll show you the crime"). It's not a far stretch that Trump learned what to do and what not to do (or how to not get caught), and learned that lesson well, apparently.

I generally view Trump with disdain. I agree with his many of his policies, and think he has the capital to get them done. I hope he wins in 24 just because the shit-show would be fun to watch, and it wouldn't be the end of the world, or country, or anything else the chicken-little media would scream. Other than that, he's not my first choice.

So when I see the hard evidence (like Hunter's laptop), I'll start listening to all the crimes Trump supposedly committed.

I mention the laptop not because of "whataboutism", but because it's the obvious example of what people see as a double-standard.

This mess will make media companies some money in advertising, and watching Trump perp-walk in a jumpsuit is a train-wreck no one could turn away from; but it's going to blow up in the left's face.

Just as amazed as I am that Mueller/Weissman didn't get Trump; I'm even more amazed at this NYC DA stunt. It's colossally stupid. Still, some folks lap up the drama.

[Chip]

I think it's a good start to holding the man responsible for his crimes.

First, it took place before he became president, so any presumed executive immunity does not apply.

Second, it was committed to suppress facts, pervert the election, and get him into office.

Third, his accomplice (Cohen) has been duly tried and convicted of the crime in question, and has testified against Trump, whose company has already been found guilty of financial crimes.

[Chuck Naill]

I think Mueller was in a novel legal quandary. Then, the AG came out with a narrative that benefitted the president.

If a “fixer” is able to exist, it says something about the system and who has the means to employ them. It’s not a mystery.

[724Seney]

I think it's a good start to holding the man responsible for his crimes. It was committed to suppress facts, pervert the election, and get him into office.

This thread is about Trump, not Biden.

[dneal]

I think Mueller was in a novel legal quandary. Then, the AG came out with a narrative that benefitted the president.

If a “fixer” is able to exist, it says something about the system and who has the means to employ them. It’s not a mystery.

Mueller demonstrated signs of cognitive decline. I'm disappointed that they used his name for political purposes.

Andrew Weissman was the lead. He's sharp and ruthless. The actual report did not accuse Trump of a crime, and no indictment resulted. The "we can't exonerate" was the report's language, not Barr's.

I agree that there is something wrong with the system. It's what I've been complaining about on near every topic. Fixers are just one part of it, like lobbyists.

Pretending that Trump is the first corrupt person in the public sphere is silly, as is pretending he's the most corrupt. Maybe he is, but he's better at hiding it.

Let's start with the low-hanging fruit, like the laptop and the unequivocally incriminating evidence on it. Did you read in the news that the Rep Gomar subpoenaed the bank records (the same SARs the Treasury Dept created), and there's the transactions from China directly to members of the Biden family? CNN said he did it quietly, but everybody else was interviewing him about it.

Bank transactions are evidence. Show me the same for Trump, and I'll entertain the accusations. Up until now, all I've seen are the Adam Schiff's giving press conferences of crimes and proof of Trump's guilt; which never materialize.

[Chuck Naill]

I haven’t heard anyone suggesting Trump is the first corrupt public servant. I can’t remember, but several Chicago governors were convicted. Spiro Agnew accepted a plea deal.

I don’t see him even trying to hide it. His taped phone call to Georgia wasn’t behind closed doors.

If I remember, no charges were levied because the subject was in fact a sitting president.

If Biden is guilty of something illegal, he should be held to the same standards as me and you.

[dneal]

That's all fine, Chuck. I've seen the phone call transcript. It's not hard evidence, and needs criminal intent proven to make anything of it. It can plausibly interpreted differently, which is what Trump will argue (and likely win).

I want to see hard evidence. They got his taxes and Rachel Maddow touted that she would reveal all. That happened twice, in fact; and both were nothingburgers. Geraldo's opening of Capone's safe.

I can clearly evidence that Hunter was a user of illegal substances. He was kicked out of the Navy for it. There are plenty of pictures of it. He admits it in his book. His father has acknowledge it.

I can also clearly evidence that Hunter completed an ATF form 4473 and perjured himself on it. We've already been through which questions he answered falsely. It's a felony. Clear cut case that still hasn't been taken up by a prosecutor.

Show me a similar example with Trump or Jr., and I'm happy to entertain accusations. Instead, we see TSherbs emoting all the things he believes - none of which he can demonstrate.

[Chuck Naill]

Thanks for your thoughts @dneal.

[TSherbs]

I think it's a good start to holding the man responsible for his crimes.

First, it took place before he became president, so any presumed executive immunity does not apply.

Second, it was committed to suppress facts, pervert the election, and get him into office.

Third, his accomplice (Cohen) has been duly tried and convicted of the crime in question, and has testified against Trump, whose company has already been found guilty of financial crimes.

It will be interesting to see what Pence testifies. How often he uses the Fifth, etc. (not on this case)

[TSherbs]

I haven’t heard anyone suggesting Trump is the first corrupt public servant.

oh gosh no

Nixon was perhaps headed to jail, were it not for the pardon (although he was initially "un-indicted"). Certainly today Nixon would be indicted without that pardon. Several other Watergate conspirators went to jail.

[TSherbs]

If Biden is guilty of something illegal, he should be held to the same standards as me and you.

Yes, and as was true for Trump, some charges (if any have probable cause) will have to wait until when he is no longer president (as is the case for Trump now).

[Chip]

Who is Rep. Gomar?

What planet does he represent?

[Chip]

A brief musical interlude. :dirol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ues8ycOxXKM

[TSherbs]

precious camp

the sad thing is that his monstrous ego motivated him to drag this equally monstrous littany of bad behaviors further into the public when he has another child that he is trying to raise (I assume that he is partaking in this raising). His other children are well into adulthood.

[fountainpenkid]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/26/opinion/trump-indictment-skeptical-case.html
I am partial to French’s thinking here. The apricot certainly appears to have committed very serious crimes in Georgia and maybe others but this Bragg case seems apart from them, hinging on a tortured serpentine logic (which may yet be sound!) and stemming entirely from personal conduct I can’t bring myself to see as criminal, only very shitty and scummy and not worthy of anyone in high political office. (Can we really think the news would’ve changed the outcome of the election?! Although if Trump and team can be proved to have acted with that intent that would be compelling).
The only thing that does make me feel strongly this case is just is the fate of Cohen…if he went to jail partially for this and was directed by Trump, it seems only fair Trump should too.

[Chip]

When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. Proverbs, 29:2


https://i.imgur.com/6cJtXg8.jpg

[Chip]

Trump's day of reckoning was a yawn.

No phalanxes of meth-fueled patriots with AR-15s defending the gates of Mar-A-Lago. No riots in NYC. No "death and destruction."

Didn't even have another RWW whackjob shoot up a grocery store in a black neighborhood.

Or an attack on a synagogue.

Guess he's lost his oomph.

He barely said two words in court: not guilty. (Yet another lie.) And his post indictment rant from Mar-A-Lago was pretty subdued.

I think he's realizing, however dimly, that money and lies and bluster won't get him out of this.

That his fate is in the hands of a judge and jury.

[dneal]

The counts are the same charge, and use the language:

"...with intent to defraud and intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission thereof..."

Ignoring the statute of limitations problem, the "intent to commit another crime" part is the calculus to escalate this to a felony.

What's the other crime the prosecution is alleging intent to commit? Why isn't it listed in the indictment?

That may turn out to be problematic.

[Chuck Naill]

Does anyone know if Georgia could, if it wanted, file charges while this one is proceeding?

[dneal]

Yes, Georgia could.

[TSherbs]

Trump's day of reckoning was a yawn.

No phalanxes of meth-fueled patriots with AR-15s defending the gates of Mar-A-Lago. No riots in NYC. No "death and destruction."

Didn't even have another RWW whackjob shoot up a grocery store in a black neighborhood.

Or an attack on a synagogue.

Guess he's lost his oomph.

He barely said two words in court: not guilty. (Yet another lie.) And his post indictment rant from Mar-A-Lago was pretty subdued.

I think he's realizing, however dimly, that money and lies and bluster won't get him out of this.

That his fate is in the hands of a judge and jury.

I loved hearing that when Trump only nodded in answer to a question, the judge cupped his ear and said "I can't hear you." There's a new boss in the room.

I liked that there was no violence in NYC as a part of that shitshow. And I liked that they ran MTG off her little platform. Get the fuck out of our city! That's how they feel about Trump, too.

[TSherbs]

Did I read that the trial will be scheduled, likely, for 2024? The news will be consumed with nothing else during that primary and general elections season....

[Chuck Naill]

I did think the Green and Santos involvement strange.

[TSherbs]

I did think the Green and Santos involvement strange.

They are attention-seeking hounds.

[Chuck Naill]

They must have felt they would have been welcomed.

[Chip]

If the Trumpster actually gets locked up, his biggest worry will be the lack of a hairdresser (or groomer, perhaps.)

https://i.imgur.com/k540nJ7.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/M5SKKfH.jpg

[TSherbs]

Who will be his running-mate now? MTG, since she linked the Dumpster to Nelson Mandela and Jesus?!!! Why did she leave out Jeffrey Epstein?

[Chuck Naill]

As an aside, is Mr. Trump screaming for help? I've read about his early years from his brother's daughter's perspective. It didn't seem he have a happy beginning. Could it be he never grew up? This allows me to have some empathy for him. Who wants to be 75 and have this much dysfunction in your life?

[Chip]

The whole sleazy drama of Trump and the law needs a soundtrack.

Here's a start:

1. Stormy—Classics IV 1968

2. Georgia (On My Mind) —Hoagy Carmichael and Stuart Gorell 1930 / Ray Charles

3. Jailhouse Rock —Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller, 1957 / Elvis Presley

4. Third-Rate Romance— Russell Smith, 1974 / Amazing Rhythm Aces.

5. (Money) Can't Buy Me Love— Beatles, 1964.

6. I Fought the Law (and the Law Won)— Sonny Curtis / Bobby Fuller Four 1966.

7. Shooting Dirty Pool— The Replacements 1987.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u7JwU9S4ok

[Chip]

8. Sympathy for the Devil– The Rolling Stones 1968.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgnClrx8N2k

[Chuck Naill]

Nope, it’s still callous!

[Chuck Naill]

From an op-ed today,

"It was thanks to Mr. Trump’s high profile that the case vaulted from what had been a local crime story to national notoriety, Mr. Salaam told me. “We were almost untouchables,” he said.

Now that notoriety has provided Mr. Salaam, 49, with a platform on which to run for office. And in a twist of fate straight out of the tabloids, it’s Mr. Trump who has now been indicted on criminal charges while Mr. Salaam runs for office.

“It was karma,” he said of Mr. Trump’s legal situation, while sitting inside the Sugar Hill Cafe in Harlem. “I hope he’s able to do the time,” he said, with a hint of mischief in his eyes.

Behind the smile is the story of a Black man who lost his childhood to the American justice system.

When Mr. Salaam was wrongfully convicted, he was a student at Rice High School, a Catholic prep school in Harlem, and had previously studied at the elite LaGuardia High School of Music and Art and the Performing Arts. At home, dinner conversations were filled with Black history and tales of the Jim Crow South, where his mother had been born. Mr. Salaam read voraciously, studying Haile Selassie and Nelson Mandela. After school, Mr. Salaam and his friends would hang out in Central Park, despite his mother’s admonition to avoid the crime-ridden area."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/17/opinion/yusef-salaam-harlem-trump.html

[TSherbs]

8. Sympathy for the Devil– The Rolling Stones 1968.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgnClrx8N2k

perfect

one of the best rock songs evah