Banned from FPN?

[Nomdeplume]

I just got an Access Denied message from Fountain Pen Network?

What did I do to deserve that?
How do I contact Admin if I am denied access?

[heraclitus682]

The site is down now. No one can get on.

[sargetalon]

I don't think it's you. In the brief moment they were up today, wimg reported that they were in trouble with regards to bandwidth. They were going down to apply a security patch and sometime soon after they are to go down for a prolonged period to migrate to larger servers. I'm getting crazy error messages when I try to access the site. Just a waiting game fir now.

[Jon Szanto]

I'm jumping in here pretty quick: while I don't know you, I don't think - at the moment - that you should be concerned.

I know another person, who is certainly undeserving, who got one of these when trying to log in. The entire site is down for maintenance, and I think something in the configuration is messed up and sending these messages out incorrectly. For instance, this other person got the denial on a phone, but not off his computer.

Don't stress, and wait until FPN is back up fully before contacting them (they can be reached at fpnadmin at gmail dot com.

[bassmannate]

Glad to see I'm not the only one getting 403 errors.

[Pterodactylus]

Me too, when I try to access the site normally I also got a 403 forbidden.


403 FORBIDDEN!

Either the address you are accessing this site from has been banned for previous malicious behavior or the action you attempted is considered to be hostile to the proper functioning of this system.

The detected reason(s) you were blocked are:
Vulnerability Scanner (UA-0160).


It seems their threat scanner gone wild/ misconfigurated.

Only when trying to access it using a proxy I get the maintenance message.
I hope they fix this crappy scanner soon.....

[liapuyat]

I got a 403 Forbidden message too, saying my ISP harbors malicious spambots (my ISP is the biggest telco in our country and never used to have any issues with FPN). I sent them an email to the fpnadmin at gmail dot com address, and I hope they are able to fix this soon.

[liapuyat]

I got the following reply from Wim, at fpnadmin at gmail dot com:

----
Hi,

Thank you for letting us know.

We are actually offline completely at the moment, so we don’t know what is going on. It looks like our old registrar still didn’t fix their infected server, the one we had problems with in March/April this year, and it seems to point one in the wrong direction.

We will only be back online in about 5-7 days, which is the time it will take us to move to the new server we ordered.

HTH, warm regards, Wim
FPN Admin

[wimg]

Actually, it has nothing to do with FPN, but it has all the looks of a still not yet fixed DNS server at our old registrar, the reason why we move to another registrar.

We are offline to move to a new server, due to the fact we badly need more memory (hence the reboots of the last weeks), and there is zilch activity on the server currently. Literally 0.0 cpu, 0.0 memory. Normally, even when idling, it is about 1.5 cpus, and 1.5 to 2.5 GB of DRAM.

All we display currently is a message to the fact that we are indeed moving, which will take approx. 5-7 days. Never a good time to do this, but better now than never.

BTW, we will not reply to any messages here, just were notified that people were having problems.

In short, check back in about a weeks time, and we will be back online.

Kindest regards, Wim
FPN Admin

[Pterodactylus]

Hi Wim,

Thanks for the info :)

[85AKbN]

In short, check back in about a weeks time, and we will be back online.
i'll stop with the F5 then.

eta: wimg, when the message was showing last night (pst), what did that phrase pcoac,luh mean at the end after your / admin's e-mail?

[Waski_the_Squirrel]

I'm glad to know what is going on. I wonder how much more writing I'll actually get done now that I can't read anything on FPN? At least I can satiate my interest in pens here.

[mhosea]

It amuses me is that I feel as if the site were up and discussion there moving along and that the problem is that I just can't see it. No doubt when a week turns to 10 days and the site comes back up, I will feel as if there should be 10 days of discussion to catch up on. :)

[brewsky]

Appreciate the info wimg

sent from my galaxy s3 via tapatalk

[Runnin_Ute]

Thanks for the update.

[VertOlive]

Well, I spent all my free time here and hunting new pens anyway. I am glad to know it's not just me. Or my hairstyle. Or not having enough pens yet to run with the big dogs....

[pajaro]

I don't think I will ever have enough pens or the interest in the right kind of pens to run with the big dogs.

[lisantica]

I'm able to read some posts using the Cache drop down from my searches. It won't show photos, but I can still read reviews which is the information I am looking for.

[85AKbN]

I'm able to read some posts using the Cache drop down from my searches. It won't show photos, but I can still read reviews which is the information I am looking for.
i was trying to do that the other day and finally figured it out.


eta: i was developing a mental list of what to search for when it came back up... :jester:

[inkstainedruth]

I kept checking all day on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and kept getting an error message that the site couldn't be found (I had seen the "down for maintenance" message a day or two before that). I couldn't even get to posts through Google, which I was trying to do some yesterday to see scans of the Diamine Flower inks (Christmas present from the hubby) to decide which one to try first.
I guess I will just have to be patient. Sigh. I am *not* a patient person. Plus a really bored person by now, because I'm sick -- thanks to the *lovely* windchills on Tuesday:angry: and can't really go anywhere at the moment. And there's only so many times you can check Ebay to see how much you got outbid by....:cry:
Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Sailor Kenshin]

Optimum says domain doesn't exist any more. And that's all I get. O_O

[Farmboy]

Wim responded with a status update in the thread that is being ignored.

I'm unclear on what to make of this. I shall ignore it until I decide.

FarmBoy

[sargetalon]

If you do a google search and an FPN link is returned, you can drop down the arrow next to the address and choose to visit a "cached page." It will at least allow you to see most of that thread in case you need to reference something.

[Senecabud]

Well it's reall . . y frustrating that when one finally has the time to linger over the posts and enjoy them, rather than rush through them on a busy day, the site is down. (Moan, groan.)

[85AKbN]

If you do a google search and an FPN link is returned, you can drop down the arrow next to the address and choose to visit a "cached page." It will at least allow you to see most of that thread in case you need to reference something.
anyone figure out how to view subsequent pages through the cache?

[inkstainedruth]

Optimum says domain doesn't exist any more. And that's all I get. O_O

Yeah, Firefox said something similar (that the site can't be found). I thought I remembered there being a discussion over here last spring after the hacker attack, so I went ahead and signed up for this forum this morning. Only there seems to be some sort of issue with not being able to get past the first page of topics, so I apparently have something set wrong. Or my version of Firefox is too old....
Sigh; why is my 2 year old browser functionally nearly obsolete, yet my 1949 Plum 51 and 1946 Silver Pearl Vacumatic work great? And without any sort of repairs or restoration at that....
Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Inkheart]

It's so kind of the FPG folks to allow us a bit of space in this regard. Thank you for making it possible for FPNers to have some notion of what is going on. :)

[usk15]

It's so kind of the FPG folks to allow us a bit of space in this regard. Thank you for making it possible for FPNers to have some notion of what is going on. :)

Indeed !

[kaisnowbird]

Sigh; why is my 2 year old browser functionally nearly obsolete, yet my 1949 Plum 51 and 1946 Silver Pearl Vacumatic work great? And without any sort of repairs or restoration at that....
Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

Yep, the same reasons why no one will have an iPad as a family heirloom, even if it had been laser engraved.

[Chemyst]

Well it's reall . . y frustrating that when one finally has the time to linger over the posts and enjoy them, rather than rush through them on a busy day, the site is down. (Moan, groan.)

Yes, well I'm sure Wim wants to take a few days off for the winter holiday season too.

[Jon Szanto]

Yes, well I'm sure Wim wants to take a few days off for the winter holiday season too.

Never a better time to have multiple admins sharing a burden. It is the height of absurdity to entrust the running of such a large community to one person, no matter how well-meaning the intent.

[Farmboy]

Yes, well I'm sure Wim wants to take a few days off for the winter holiday season too.

Never a better time to have multiple admins sharing a burden. It is the height of absurdity to entrust the running of such a large community to one person, no matter how well-meaning the intent.
Let us not forget we are not alone, I still moderate the Lamy forum when it is up.

[Jon Szanto]

Yes, well I'm sure Wim wants to take a few days off for the winter holiday season too.

Never a better time to have multiple admins sharing a burden. It is the height of absurdity to entrust the running of such a large community to one person, no matter how well-meaning the intent.
Let us not forget we are not alone, I still moderate the Lamy forum when it is up.

How could I forget?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLKbc2hvxk

[earthdawn]

Yes, well I'm sure Wim wants to take a few days off for the winter holiday season too.

Never a better time to have multiple admins sharing a burden. It is the height of absurdity to entrust the running of such a large community to one person, no matter how well-meaning the intent.
Let us not forget we are not alone, I still moderate the Lamy forum when it is up.

How could I forget?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLKbc2hvxk

Ha... Love Bernadette Peters. I saw her sing this when the show was running & had lunch at the table next to her a few years later down in the Village.

Hows that for changing the topic ;)

[HughC]

There are plenty of alternatives without all the issues of the FPN, most of which are caused by Wim. Explore the options and you'll pleasantly surprised by both the quality of posts and a less intrusive Admin/mod control ( Wim is a control freak ), this board is an example of a better set up as is the FPB.

Regards
Hugh

[Kaputnik]

Hadn't noticed any problems with FPN other than the technical ones, but those became overwhelming. I hope they do get them fixed. Right now when I click on my FPN bookmark, I get a search page from my cable provider.

In the mean time, well, I joined FPG at about the same time 3 years ago, and am not sure why I haven't spent more time here. It's encouraging to notice more and more familiar handles, presumably attached to the same people.

[migo984]

My experience of FPN is of willingness to help, give advice, knowledge, generosity & friendliness. Yes there is disagreement & frustration but that's bound to happen on a board populated by articulate people with strong opinions. Moderation is essential with that mix of personalities. Yes it makes me grumble (loudly!) sometimes. I have made posts myself there that have ruffled some feathers & stretched limits of what's permitted but I joined as a member in the knowledge of that strong moderation, as do most. I appreciate the huge time & effort it takes to maintain such a large forum. I hope its technical problems are resolved very soon.

There is similar knowledge & friendliness available here, although the expertise is more limited due to the logistics of having fewer members/contributors. Traffic is less but quality of postings is very evident. The welcome to FPN-ers seems genuine on the whole & generosity of FPG-ers is heartening.

As a fairly new member here (3 months) I've done a LOT of reading through posts. Whilst understanding the benefits of the vaunted laissez-faire approach to moderation on this board, if I'm honest I have noticed that there is some bitchiness evident here, especially in criticism of FPN, both as a board & of individuals there. More so during its current troubles. I am uncomfortable with that. I never saw criticism on FPN of other boards or forums in the same way. Whether that is because of "suppression" by moderators I don't actually care. Disillusioned ex-FPNers seem to have grudges - it would be a shame if that reflected on this board & skewed potential new members' perceptions.

I have seen boards where there is light-touch moderation implode as more outspoken members start arguing or criticism/negativity takes over. Of course getting the right balance is difficult. People want to express opinions, rightly so. But there does need to be protection from trolling etc.

In the end every board has its own personality & I really appreciate the difference between FPN & FPG. Neither is more right, or better, than the other. No forum is perfect & there's room for more than one. Vive le difference & all that. I would just prefer less overt sniping here about FPN, Wim & others.

This is just my two pennies worth. Apols for twittering on at length. Huge thanks to everyone here for offering a refuge & for help in managing my fountain pen chat withdrawal symptoms.

[Sinistral1]

+1 on the appreciation for a respite from pen chat withdrawal symptoms - it's been, like really, really tough, man!

[Inkheart]

You have said absolutely everything I was thinking.


My experience of FPN is of willingness to help, give advice, knowledge, generosity & friendliness. Yes there is disagreement & frustration but that's bound to happen on a board populated by articulate people with strong opinions. Moderation is essential with that mix of personalities. Yes it makes me grumble (loudly!) sometimes. I have made posts myself there that have ruffled some feathers & stretched limits of what's permitted but I joined as a member in the knowledge of that strong moderation, as do most. I appreciate the huge time & effort it takes to maintain such a large forum. I hope its technical problems are resolved very soon.

There is similar knowledge & friendliness available here, although the expertise is more limited due to the logistics of having fewer members/contributors. Traffic is less but quality of postings is very evident. The welcome to FPN-ers seems genuine on the whole & generosity of FPG-ers is heartening.

As a fairly new member here (3 months) I've done a LOT of reading through posts. Whilst understanding the benefits of the vaunted laissez-faire approach to moderation on this board, if I'm honest I have noticed that there is some bitchiness evident here, especially in criticism of FPN, both as a board & of individuals there. More so during its current troubles. I am uncomfortable with that. I never saw criticism on FPN of other boards or forums in the same way. Whether that is because of "suppression" by moderators I don't actually care. Disillusioned ex-FPNers seem to have grudges - it would be a shame if that reflected on this board & skewed potential new members' perceptions.

I have seen boards where there is light-touch moderation implode as more outspoken members start arguing or criticism/negativity takes over. Of course getting the right balance is difficult. People want to express opinions, rightly so. But there does need to be protection from trolling etc.

In the end every board has its own personality & I really appreciate the difference between FPN & FPG. Neither is more right, or better, than the other. No forum is perfect & there's room for more than one. Vive le difference & all that. I would just prefer less overt sniping here about FPN, Wim & others.

This is just my two pennies worth. Apols for twittering on at length. Huge thanks to everyone here for offering a refuge & for help in managing my fountain pen chat withdrawal symptoms.

[dannzeman]

...

As a fairly new member here (3 months) I've done a LOT of reading through posts. Whilst understanding the benefits of the vaunted laissez-faire approach to moderation on this board, if I'm honest I have noticed that there is some bitchiness evident here, especially in criticism of FPN, both as a board & of individuals there. More so during its current troubles. I am uncomfortable with that. I never saw criticism on FPN of other boards or forums in the same way. Whether that is because of "suppression" by moderators I don't actually care. Disillusioned ex-FPNers seem to have grudges - it would be a shame if that reflected on this board & skewed potential new members' perceptions.

...
Welcome to FPGeeks and thank you for taking the time to make that well written post. I know there are others who feel the same as you and I'll try my best to explain why we do things the way we do here.

The admin's attitude at each forum are fundamentally different. Now, I've not actually asked Wim about this but through my time at FPN and how I've seen things run there, it appears as though members are invited into his house and can only converse according to his rules. Violation of any rule is met with swift moderation and there's no chance of discussing the situation. He also keeps tabs on you when you leave his house. If you do something somewhere outside of FPN that he doesn't like, the door to FPN may not be open to you when you come back.

I do not consider the FPG Forum to be my house. Instead, I view it as a public location for pen geeks to gather and chat. When decisions need to be made about rules and features it is discussed with the community and I implement the changes. Moderation is minimal because I find it to be a very slippery slope that can get to the point where you can't criticize anything. We allow criticism here because I wholeheartedly believe it can lead to improvement. We don't tolerate personal attacks and I'll discuss it with the offending members to let them know it's not welcome here. Further offenses are met with moderation. However, we don't edit or delete posts because of it, unless it's truly vile. We leave it for all to read so you can get a better idea of the character who made the post.

I try to encourage people to converse here the same way they would in person, and react the same way when they read something offensive. For some, that means leaving the community. For others, it means just ignoring the offending individual. Here, it's much easy to ignore (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist) them and never seen anything from them again than it is in real life. Yay software!

Normally, I rarely have to make an appearance here to moderate anything except spam. Everyone here does a great job of keeping things civil and working out their differences.

Hopefully, this gives you a little more insight to FPG and you decide to stick around.

[migo984]

dannzeman

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my post in detail. Much appreciated.

I hope my post was not taken as being a criticism of your forum - indeed it was not intended to be that; I like the personality of this forum, and the laid-back, easy-going nature, a lot. That is a credit to you, and your philosophy. My intent was just to point out that, as a new member, I felt uncomfortable with some of the personal criticism being posted. As you rightly say in your reply, if you don't like something then you have the option to leave - and hopefully the grace to leave it at that (at least in open forums)
In terms of FPN, I am aware of the discontent and the reasons for that, but I think if one signs up as a member of any board or forum then you are by default accepting the rules and culture/ethos of that forum. I feel constrained there but my reason for using that forum means that I can live with the strength of moderation - at least at the level it is now. I have no experience at all of any issues arising due to "outside" activities (your comment made me regret my boringly compliant and conformist lifestyle LOL).

Anyway as you can see I am wont to ramble on at length so I'll stop now. Thank you once again for your reply. And if it's OK I'd like to pull up a pew and hang around :-)

[Jon Szanto]

Thank you, Dan. In just a couple of short paragraphs, you've articulated precisely why I enjoy this forum so much, and why I make this my primary pen-centric online home.

Heh. I was going to say more, but I think I'll just leave it at that!

[dannzeman]

dannzeman

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my post in detail. Much appreciated.

I hope my post was not taken as being a criticism of your forum - indeed it was not intended to be that; I like the personality of this forum, and the laid-back, easy-going nature, a lot. That is a credit to you, and your philosophy. My intent was just to point out that, as a new member, I felt uncomfortable with some of the personal criticism being posted. As you rightly say in your reply, if you don't like something then you have the option to leave - and hopefully the grace to leave it at that (at least in open forums)
In terms of FPN, I am aware of the discontent and the reasons for that, but I think if one signs up as a member of any board or forum then you are by default accepting the rules and culture/ethos of that forum. I feel constrained there but my reason for using that forum means that I can live with the strength of moderation - at least at the level it is now. I have no experience at all of any issues arising due to "outside" activities (your comment made me regret my boringly compliant and conformist lifestyle LOL).

Anyway as you can see I am wont to ramble on at length so I'll stop now. Thank you once again for your reply. And if it's OK I'd like to pull up a pew and hang around :-)

You're welcome. I didn't see your post as being critical.

If you ever get to the point where you feel that you would need to leave the community please let me know so we can discuss the issue. I hope that would be the last resort and I'd do everything in my power to find a resolution between all the parties involved.

You're more than welcome to get comfy and stick around. The more the merrier!

[HughC]

dannzeman

I have no experience at all of any issues arising due to "outside" activities (your comment made me regret my boringly compliant and conformist lifestyle LOL).



I have, suffice to say I declined Wims absurd demands for an apology as he seemed to think because I was a member of the FPN then I had entered into a "privacy" agreement with him....classic example of a control freak who uses simple bullying tactics to steamroll anyone who he decides has been "naughty" As for arrogance...




BTW, we will not reply to any messages here, just were notified that people were having problems.

Kindest regards, Wim
FPN Admin

this says it all. Using this forum when it suits him but contribute nothing, sorry but he's a sad and pathetic person on a power driven ego trip imo. The FPN has potential but under new ownership.

Regards
Hugh

[dannzeman]

Seriously, Hugh, can you not make your point without the personal insults?

[MY63]

I just wanted to say that I also felt a little unsure of the ways here on FPG as opposed to FPN I had wrongly assumed the looser moderation meant no moderation at all and clearly that is not the case.
I think a lot of what I first thought was bullying was more like banter and the language used is not as restricted as fpn but it is the language in use everyday.
I intend to spend more time here even when fpn returns and I apologise in advance if my projects bore you.
Thanks
Michael

[CS388]

...edit...
And there's only so many times you can check Ebay to see how much you got outbid by....:cry:


Interesting. I wonder if sales of fountain pens increase on ebay, when FPN is down - as members try to satiate their FP habit online?

Could make for a lucrative arrangement (if we put our scruples aside for a moment).

[Sinistral1]

I am happy to have found refuge here and as soon as I have time will contribute the only two ink reviews I have done, provided they are needed.

I was able to change my pen boutique order today with y'alls' help regarding the status of gold sheen (or not) in the different formulas of J Herbin 1670 Rouge Hematite after finding that Zeller's site actually specifies it's bottles do contain the gold sheen formula. I will be calling in my order to them on Monday.

I also believe in "principals over personalities" and wish there were more venues in life where open, honest discussion, even of issues that are difficult or emotional, were available and safe. It can be very hard to venture into the fear of judgment, disapproval and possible rejection, but almost always is a growing experience for me. Who would have thought the world of pens, ink and paper would be so zen?

[david i]

Seriously, Hugh, can you not make your point without the personal insults?

Hi,

In all fairness, while "bullying", "power trip","absurd demands for an apology ", "power driven ego trip imo." are emphatic terms, and while at least one is qualified by "my opinion" (which might map onto the other terms too), and while Hugh's terms are to a degree civilian terms rather than formal medical/psychiatric jargon (in all fairness Hugh is not a psychologist/psychiatrist/therapist), I admit I see them more as observational/emphatic than as personal insult. Obviously, to each his own, and of course your view carries considerable weight since this is your arena, but I am willing to stick up for Hugh to a point on this one.

Recognizing I have views of the specific players in this case, I would still offer the tidbit-- speaking as a seasoned physician who really does deal with many psychiatric patients-- that the disconnect shown in notes by the fellow Hugh addresses , posts that threaten harm while carrying the closer, "warmest regards", indicates significant pathology.

Sorry if this stirs the pot. I mean no harm.

regards

David

[dannzeman]

Seriously, Hugh, can you not make your point without the personal insults?

Hi,

In all fairness, while "bullying", "power trip","absurd demands for an apology ", "power driven ego trip imo." are emphatic terms, and while at least one is qualified by "my opinion" (which might map onto the other terms too), and while Hugh's terms are to a degree civilian terms rather than formal medical/psychiatric jargon (in all fairness Hugh is not a psychologist/psychiatrist/therapist), I admit I see them more as observational/emphatic than as personal insult. Obviously, to each his own, and of course your view carries considerable weight since this is your arena, but I am willing to stick up for Hugh to a point on this one.

Recognizing I have views of the specific players in this case, I would still offer the tidbit-- peaking as a seasoned physician who really does deal with many psychiatric patients-- that the disconnect shown in notes by the fellow Hugh addresses , posts that threaten harm while carrying the closer, "warmest regards", indicates significant pathology.

Sorry if this stirs the pot. I mean no harm.

regards

David

Regarding the specific terms you quoted, I can't say I disagree. But when Hugh says Wim is "sad and pathetic", that's where it crosses the line into insults.

Even if Wim does see a doctor and their professional assessment is that he's sad and pathetic, it's still inappropriate to say such things here.

[Jon Szanto]

I've grown very fond of Hugh over the last couple years, I very deeply am in awe of his pen knowledge, and we've had good private conversations too, but there is no doubt that his personal enmity towards Wim is usually simmering just beneath the surface. There are issues, and then there are people. I wish all concerned could focus as much on the former as possible, including Hugh. To the degree that it doesn't can be a disappointment.

[david i]

Seriously, Hugh, can you not make your point without the personal insults?

Hi,

In all fairness, while "bullying", "power trip","absurd demands for an apology ", "power driven ego trip imo." are emphatic terms, and while at least one is qualified by "my opinion" (which might map onto the other terms too), and while Hugh's terms are to a degree civilian terms rather than formal medical/psychiatric jargon (in all fairness Hugh is not a psychologist/psychiatrist/therapist), I admit I see them more as observational/emphatic than as personal insult. Obviously, to each his own, and of course your view carries considerable weight since this is your arena, but I am willing to stick up for Hugh to a point on this one.

Recognizing I have views of the specific players in this case, I would still offer the tidbit-- peaking as a seasoned physician who really does deal with many psychiatric patients-- that the disconnect shown in notes by the fellow Hugh addresses , posts that threaten harm while carrying the closer, "warmest regards", indicates significant pathology.

Sorry if this stirs the pot. I mean no harm.

regards

David

Regarding the specific terms you quoted, I can't say I disagree. But when Hugh says Wim is "sad and pathetic", that's where it crosses the line into insults.

Even if Wim does see a doctor and their professional assessment is that he's sad and pathetic, it's still inappropriate to say such things here.


I hear you.

On the scale of heated exchanges that occur in hot-button topics like this, "sad and pathetic" is at least strong opinion. If true it might not be frank insult but "truth' can be a bit gray (rather than black and white) in such circumstances. I certainly defer issues of appropriateness to you, as even true things can be inflammatory and can be unnecessarily inflammatory, no doubt, and it is fair to try keep things non-inflammatory.

I have found this an engaging thread. One can but imagine it would be hard to have this chat at FPN, even if FPN were not in limbo right now

regards

david

[HughC]

Seriously, Hugh, can you not make your point without the personal insults?

Hi Dan,

I don't consider it as insulting, rather an opinion formed from my dealings with Wim and observing his actions in relation to the FPN , he may well be a different person outside that arena. If he was more open and engaging in a forum he doesn't control I'd hold him in a higher opinion but his form on that is clear to all, his choice of interacting with others does shape how others view him and , of course, he probably has a number of people who see him in a very different light to me....that's life...and they can have their views. Openness and honesty ( a transparent process) is the hallmark of someone who deserves respect whether you agree or disagree with them, the absence of such leads to opinions such as mine.

Wim is a rather secretive individual, suffice to say he probably has at least one other handle he posts with both on the FPN and elsewhere (and probably a very obvious one when you think about it, I reckon I could name it with a degree of confidence). Of course who is Wim? ( again there are pointers) but he's so well hidden he probably finds all this one big joke !! Really any comments directed at Wim are directed at someone nobody actually knows, who doesn't use his real name and to all intensive purposes is just a front....bit like yelling at the computer screen...fun but ineffective..

Regards
Hugh

[piscov]

Read bellow, please.

[piscov]

It's so kind of the FPG folks to allow us a bit of space in this regard. Thank you for making it possible for FPNers to have some notion of what is going on. :)

I have the feeling the opposite would not be possible and probably would be deleted, but is very good to be part of FPG!!!!!!

[Pterodactylus]

After a very unpleasant thread here about half a year ago which was driven mainly by one embittered ex FPN member I completely understand Wim that he doesn't want to discuss anything here.

I don't understand ex FPN members which always harp on how wrong in their opinion the way is FPN is running.

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

Personally I had never a single problem with Wim or how he runs FPN.
I observed him always as a helpful and very responsive person.

[david i]

After a very unpleasant thread here about half a year ago which was driven mainly by one embittered ex FPN member I completely understand Wim that he doesn't want to discuss anything here.

I don't understand ex FPN members which always harp on how wrong in their opinion the way is FPN is running.

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

Personally I had never a single problem with Wim or how he runs FPN.
I observed him always as a helpful and very responsive person.

It is accepted that you don't understand this.

That is your right.

regards

david

[Sinistral1]

I like to "illustrate" my thoughts using images described with words. I can tend to be verbose and my sentences break all grammar rules, but here's what I think it's fair and safe to say:

When I want information to study and enlighten to it's utter completeness, I go to a library. I can sit by myself in the back and search and read and ponder and question, then go get more data to search and read, and so on, for as long and with as many subjects as I want to study and learn about. I want the librarian to manage the data and make sure I have full access to it, as well as provide a quiet place for me to study. I accept that I might be shown the door if I behave in a way that disturbs others in their pursuit of information. The librarian may or may not be either mentally unstable or a mean-ass control freak, they are doing what they believe to provide me and everyone else a n specific kind of "place" to spend my time.

If, however, my desire is to do a little studying AND also say "Hey" to some of my buds AND grab some espresso and a piece of carrot cake, the better place to be is down the block from the library at the coffee shop with free wifi and little tables and soft leather arm chairs. The din is significant and even though my friends and I share a lot of common interests, we also have some major differences are are not afraid to discuss them openly and with passion, and don't worry about offending the guy at the next table, because he wouldn't be here if that was an issue for him. The give and take can get loud and intense, but it's fun and we know the management likes it that way.

I know what to expect at the library and I know what to expect at the coffee shop. Both places are important, although I do lean a little more toward the library because I'm such an information hound. But, it does my social life good to relax and have fun, so I like to join the gang at the coffee shop to laugh and hang out, too. It's all cool.

Now, if I want to really relax and have dancing on the table kind of fun, I leave the coffee shop and take a cab to The Halftime Rec on Como Ave. That's the Irish pub where the crowd is loud, the music is fan-friging-tastic and everybody throws the peanut shells on the floor! Whoo-hoo!!

No right or wrong, no good or bad. Just me and you, and our pens, yeah?

[migo984]

Hi Sinistral1

I just posted a new thread in The Lounge about aphorisms, then came here & read your post above. The reference you made to the din of the coffee shop was a coincidence that made me snort into my cuppa! Thanks for unintentionally giving me a laugh. Good post :)

[Pterodactylus]

After a very unpleasant thread here about half a year ago which was driven mainly by one embittered ex FPN member I completely understand Wim that he doesn't want to discuss anything here.

I don't understand ex FPN members which always harp on how wrong in their opinion the way is FPN is running.

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

Personally I had never a single problem with Wim or how he runs FPN.
I observed him always as a helpful and very responsive person.

It is accepted that you don't understand this.

That is your right.

regards

david

We already clarified the fronts some time ago and I will not discuss anything with you anymore.

[david i]

After a very unpleasant thread here about half a year ago which was driven mainly by one embittered ex FPN member I completely understand Wim that he doesn't want to discuss anything here.

I don't understand ex FPN members which always harp on how wrong in their opinion the way is FPN is running.

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

Personally I had never a single problem with Wim or how he runs FPN.
I observed him always as a helpful and very responsive person.

It is accepted that you don't understand this.

That is your right.

regards

david

We already clarified the fronts some time ago and I will not discuss anything with you anymore.

He says, as he discusses it with me. Heh.

regards

-d

[79spitfire]

Why do you always have to have the last word??

[david i]

me?

-d

[HughC]

After a very unpleasant thread here about half a year ago which was driven mainly by one embittered ex FPN member I completely understand Wim that he doesn't want to discuss anything here.

I don't understand ex FPN members which always harp on how wrong in their opinion the way is FPN is running.

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

Personally I had never a single problem with Wim or how he runs FPN.
I observed him always as a helpful and very responsive person.

Different experiences lead to different views. that you've had no issues on he FPN and found Wim good leads to your positive views. A lot have positive experiences on the FPN, I accept that. A lot have had negative experiences, you need to accept that. Wim should discuss issues outside the FPN in an open forum, the best way to improve what the FPN offers is know what people don't like. The various threads show a significant volume of underlying problems with the way the FPN is run, fixing them is the best solution for all and that's what Wim fails to do.

Regards
Hugh

[Farmboy]

After a very unpleasant thread here about half a year ago which was driven mainly by one embittered ex FPN member I completely understand Wim that he doesn't want to discuss anything here.

I don't understand ex FPN members which always harp on how wrong in their opinion the way is FPN is running.

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

Personally I had never a single problem with Wim or how he runs FPN.
I observed him always as a helpful and very responsive person.

It is accepted that you don't understand this.

That is your right.

regards

david

We already clarified the fronts some time ago and I will not discuss anything with you anymore.

He says, as he discusses it with me. Heh.

regards

-d

I had a similar observation.

[raging.dragon]

After a very unpleasant thread here about half a year ago which was driven mainly by one embittered ex FPN member I completely understand Wim that he doesn't want to discuss anything here.

I don't understand ex FPN members which always harp on how wrong in their opinion the way is FPN is running.

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

Personally I had never a single problem with Wim or how he runs FPN.
I observed him always as a helpful and very responsive person.

Different experiences lead to different views. that you've had no issues on he FPN and found Wim good leads to your positive views. A lot have positive experiences on the FPN, I accept that. A lot have had negative experiences, you need to accept that. Wim should discuss issues outside the FPN in an open forum, the best way to improve what the FPN offers is know what people don't like. The various threads show a significant volume of underlying problems with the way the FPN is run, fixing them is the best solution for all and that's what Wim fails to do.

Regards
Hugh

Considering the hostility being directed at Wim and FPN mods, it would be pointless for Wim to discuss FPN governance here. The anger and reliving of past grievances would be overwhelming and make rational and productive discussion impossible.


Never explain yourself. Your friends don’t need it and your enemies won’t believe it.
- Belgicia Howell

My interactions with Wim and most of the FPN mods and admins have been positive and indicate they are well intentioned. However, it is inevitable that mistakes will be made. If such such mistakes, and other FPN governance issues, are to be discussed, the right place for that discussion would be a dedicated forum on FPN itself.

[HughC]

After a very unpleasant thread here about half a year ago which was driven mainly by one embittered ex FPN member I completely understand Wim that he doesn't want to discuss anything here.

I don't understand ex FPN members which always harp on how wrong in their opinion the way is FPN is running.

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

Personally I had never a single problem with Wim or how he runs FPN.
I observed him always as a helpful and very responsive person.

Different experiences lead to different views. that you've had no issues on he FPN and found Wim good leads to your positive views. A lot have positive experiences on the FPN, I accept that. A lot have had negative experiences, you need to accept that. Wim should discuss issues outside the FPN in an open forum, the best way to improve what the FPN offers is know what people don't like. The various threads show a significant volume of underlying problems with the way the FPN is run, fixing them is the best solution for all and that's what Wim fails to do.

Regards
Hugh

Considering the hostility being directed at Wim and FPN mods, it would be pointless for Wim to discuss FPN governance here. The anger and reliving of past grievances would be overwhelming and make rational and productive discussion impossible.


Never explain yourself. Your friends don’t need it and your enemies won’t believe it.
- Belgicia Howell

My interactions with Wim and most of the FPN mods and admins have been positive and indicate they are well intentioned. However, it is inevitable that mistakes will be made. If such such mistakes, and other FPN governance issues, are to be discussed, the right place for that discussion would be a dedicated forum on FPN itself.

Seeming your suddenly a "font of knowledge" perhaps you'll enlighten us with something relevant. You make the classic mistake of assuming you know how others will react, given an open discussion you would probably find the result positive. You have suggested a dedicated forum on the FPN, yes a free and open forum would be a good idea.....perhaps you need to read a few more posts about the FPN to realize the main issue to most is that the FPN is a repressive forum that actively discourages discussion about issues and governance. I agree mistakes happen, it's how those mistakes are addressed that then reflects on how well or poorly a forum is run and likewise a number of quality mods are on FPN and a few not so good.

Really having a forum on the FPN moderated by Wim about governance is possibly the most pointless suggestion I've seen for some time, again note Wim uses this forum when it suits him and him alone yet refuses to interact with any person here...that is arrogance of the highest order. Understanding the problems and issues requires the strength to confront them rather than avoid them, that is the FPN major problem and people like you need to realize that.

Regards
Hugh

[Annie]

If you feel you have been treated poorly on any forum or website you have the right to go elsewhere. Other pen and hobby forums may suit you better, like this one for example. Dan's style of moderation is very laid back but effective. To each his own.

[Pterodactylus]

Hugh,

IMO a forum is not the property of the people who contribute, they just uses a service somebody else hosts/provides.
And this somebody has any right to run HIS\Her forum in whatever way he/she likes.
Including setting up rules, and moderate (or even censor) it the way he/she wants, it neither has the obligation to be democratic, nor it has to allow every content or mindset.

If contributors don't like it anymore, they have the right to go away and contribute somewhere else or decide to host an own forum the way they like.

If too many people don't like how a place is run it will die automatically.
Currently I can't see that FPN dies, as it is by far the biggest pen forum and it is still growing, so it seems for the majority of contributors the way how the place is run is acceptable.

You never can please everybody....

[david i]

Considering the hostility being directed at Wim and FPN mods, it would be pointless for Wim to discuss FPN governance here. The anger and reliving of past grievances would be overwhelming and make rational and productive discussion impossible.

[

The obvious end result of his inability to discuss things at his own arena, by his own choice. Go figure...

regards

david

[david i]

Hugh,

IMO a forum is not the property of the people who contribute, they just uses a service somebody else hosts/provides.



Strawman.



And this somebody has any right to run HIS\Her forum in whatever way he/she likes.
Including setting up rules, and moderate (or even censor) it the way he/she wants, it neither has the obligation to be democratic, nor it has to allow every content or mindset.

Strawman




If contributors don't like it anymore, they have the right to go away and contribute somewhere else or decide to host an own forum the way they like.

If too many people don't like how a place is run it will die automatically.
Currently I can't see that FPN dies, as it is by far the biggest pen forum and it is still growing, so it seems for the majority of contributors the way how the place is run is acceptable.

You never can please everybody....

Strawman

.

regards

David

[Inkheart]

I have, suffice to say I declined Wims absurd demands for an apology as he seemed to think because I was a member of the FPN then I had entered into a "privacy" agreement with him....classic example of a control freak who uses simple bullying tactics to steamroll anyone who he decides has been "naughty" As for arrogance...




BTW, we will not reply to any messages here, just were notified that people were having problems.

Kindest regards, Wim
FPN Admin

this says it all. Using this forum when it suits him but contribute nothing, sorry but he's a sad and pathetic person on a power driven ego trip imo. The FPN has potential but under new ownership.

Regards
Hugh

Seriously? The man is working for days on this issue, over the holidays, and you think he should also be tasked with responding here to what are likely to be highly repetitive and useless questions? Yeah, that's reasonable.

If the vitriol you have been allowed here is not acceptable ("repressed") at FPN, then so much the better. There is enough drama and hostility in the real world; many of us come to forums to escape that and connect with like-minded souls. Some of us actually expect adults to exercise consideration, respect and good manners in a community.

Essentially, you have moved on to the new wife; and in her living room and in front of her guests, endlessly malign the ex-wife. It is tacky and uncomfortable for others, and serves no constructive purpose - rather the opposite.

You insist upon attacking a person who you know will not respond to you here, over and over. Most of us don't know the details of your issue and it actually doesn't matter. Frankly to observers, you come off looking far worse than Wim.

[kaisnowbird]

Frankly, that's a little harsh, coming from someone who admittedly doesn't know the details of the issue and doesn't appear to care about what actually happened to Hugh.


There is enough drama and hostility in the real world; many of us come to forums to escape that and connect with like-minded souls.

And why should this place be disconnected from the real world? Most of us are air-breathing non-ficticious persons, I would assume.


Some of us actually expect adults to exercise consideration, respect and good manners in a community.

However, I wouldn't assume that everyone here is an adult, so I guess we should allow for some non-adult behaviours, except where the person insists on being viewed as an 'adult'.

[david i]

Seriously? The man is working for days on this issue, over the holidays, and you think he should also be tasked with responding here to what are likely to be highly repetitive and useless questions? Yeah, that's reasonable.

If the vitriol you have been allowed here is not acceptable ("repressed") at FPN, then so much the better. There is enough drama and hostility in the real world; many of us come to forums to escape that and connect with like-minded souls. Some of us actually expect adults to exercise consideration, respect and good manners in a community.

Essentially, you have moved on to the new wife; and in her living room and in front of her guests, endlessly malign the ex-wife. It is tacky and uncomfortable for others, and serves no constructive purpose - rather the opposite.

You insist upon attacking a person who you know will not respond to you here, over and over. Most of us don't know the details of your issue and it actually doesn't matter. Frankly to observers, you come off looking far worse than Wim.


He is slaving away, typing code from the start. heh.

"Vitriol". How silly.

This board invites reasonable freedom of expression. A shame you don't respect that.

Wim is entirely able to respond here. He is a member. And, unlike his board, the response won't disappear. Indeed, he has written here before.

Frankly, to me, you come off looking rather clueless.

regards

david

[david i]

Some of us actually expect adults to exercise consideration, respect and good manners in a community.


Straw Man. And, "Glass Houses/Stones"

Just sayin'...

regards

-d

[Inkheart]

"What happened to Hugh"? Oh my... You make it sound like Wim shot his dog. His ranting was excessive. If you like to feed on drama, you're clearly in the right place.

Sorry you were offended by my reasonable expectation of decent behavior and fair play. Clearly, I'm in the wrong place. :)

[david i]

"What happened to Hugh"? Oh my... You make it sound like Wim shot his dog. His ranting was excessive. If you like to feed on drama, you're clearly in the right place.

Sorry you were offended by my reasonable expectation of decent behavior and fair play. Clearly, I'm in the wrong place. :)


Oh my... you said "Oh my". heh.


"my reasonable expectation of decent behavior and fair play" . Tactic 22 from the LDM: "False assertion of reasonability".


"Sorry you were offended by my reasonable expectation of decent behavior and fair play" . Tactic 5 from the LDM: The Telepath: Absent anything of substance to offer in debate, assert that you know the thoughts/emotions of your opponent, and find them to be... go figure... bad.. Just sayin'...


"You make it sound like Wim shot his dog" Tactic 51 from the LDM, False assertion of simile.


"If you like to feed on drama, you're clearly in the right place". Tactic 61 from the LDM: False assertion of drama

So many tactics left to explore, baby. Keep 'em comin'...

regards

david

[kaisnowbird]

"What happened to Hugh"? Oh my... You make it sound like Wim shot his dog. His ranting was excessive. If you like to feed on drama, you're clearly in the right place.

Sorry you were offended by my reasonable expectation of decent behavior and fair play. Clearly, I'm in the wrong place. :)

Was I offended? How obtuse of me not to notice. There I was, thinking I was merely confused by your expectation of "consideration, respect and good manners" when you showed so little towards Hugh. I don't suppose Hugh shot your dog to deserve it?

[jbb]

I was banned for several weeks on FPN when I politely questioned the cost of the fees for selling on FPN since I sold inexpensive ($20 and under) items. You can go through my 5000+ posts there (plus mine here on FPGeeks) and you'll see I am not inclined to be argumentative nor was I being so at the time. I was simply bringing up the overly high cost of selling on FPN if you sold inexpensive items. Several other FPN members were banned with me for merely coming to my defense and pointing out that Wim (yes Wim) was aggressively attacking me in HIS posts. (Of course he deleted those posts --- plus several weeks of mine.) Until it happens to you I don't think you know what it feels like. I post mostly on FPGeeks and Fountain Pen Board now.

[dannzeman]

Hugh,

IMO a forum is not the property of the people who contribute, they just uses a service somebody else hosts/provides.
And this somebody has any right to run HIS\Her forum in whatever way he/she likes.
Including setting up rules, and moderate (or even censor) it the way he/she wants, it neither has the obligation to be democratic, nor it has to allow every content or mindset.
...
Emphasis above is mine.

This way of thinking is wrong. Yes, what you said is true, but it makes for a very poor method of management. If you're a member of FPG, you have just as much say in how the forum is run as any admin, mod, or any other member. A forum is set up to encourage people to come together into a community, so why not let that community dictate how it's going to be managed?

[dannzeman]

I have, suffice to say I declined Wims absurd demands for an apology as he seemed to think because I was a member of the FPN then I had entered into a "privacy" agreement with him....classic example of a control freak who uses simple bullying tactics to steamroll anyone who he decides has been "naughty" As for arrogance...




BTW, we will not reply to any messages here, just were notified that people were having problems.

Kindest regards, Wim
FPN Admin

this says it all. Using this forum when it suits him but contribute nothing, sorry but he's a sad and pathetic person on a power driven ego trip imo. The FPN has potential but under new ownership.

Regards
Hugh

Seriously? The man is working for days on this issue, over the holidays, and you think he should also be tasked with responding here to what are likely to be highly repetitive and useless questions? Yeah, that's reasonable.
Absolutely. As a forum owner it's his responsibility to take care of technical issues and he owes it to members of his forum to keep them updated. When this forum went down due to hackers I used several alternative methods (facebook, twitter, etc.) to keep our members informed of what was happening. It's not difficult or time consuming.



You insist upon attacking a person who you know will not respond to you here, over and over. Most of us don't know the details of your issue and it actually doesn't matter. Frankly to observers, you come off looking far worse than Wim.
(Emphasis mine.)

That is until something similar happens to you, right? To think that it can't or won't is being naive.

[david i]

If you feel you have been treated poorly on any forum or website you have the right to go elsewhere. Other pen and hobby forums may suit you better, like this one for example. Dan's style of moderation is very laid back but effective. To each his own.

An odd observation.


it is of course quite true. But it also seems quite irrelevant. No one expressed concern for the lack of right to go elsewhere or for the lack of ability to go elsewhere.

regards

david

[hari317]

The FPN status page is now visible at 72.52.218.134 in case your DNS entries have not been updated.

[mhosea]

I wonder why Wim is so much the point of discussion rather than the issues of a heavily controlled forum versus a free one. David asks why would anyone choose to participate in a forum that chills freedom of expression, and I think the answer is a matter of momentum (the larger community seems to offer advantages) and insecurity (delicate eyes/ears strongly prefer not to be offended). The former is purely practical in nature. The latter is more problematic when the goal is to be protected from free speech, but I gather that a certain percentage of people regard their participation as purely a diversion, R&R, and conflict is something they view as ruining the purely entertainment value that they are seeking out of their participation. I have always supposed that FPN was geared towards that, to be the comfortable site for the masses to discuss passing interests rather than a site for aficionados to discuss their passion. Passion is not really compatible with censorship, IMHO. But the sheer size and age of FPN has made the defacto site, despite that passionate people may run into trouble there.

Apparently my style is generally tolerated, if not always liked, but I prefer reading forums that are free. One reason is that I find that passive-aggressive personalities always find ways of pushing other people's buttons within the confines of what is acceptable in the forum, whereas other personalities, including the sorts of people who wear their hearts on their sleeves, cannot always navigate those limitations. I like people who wear their hearts on their sleeves. I need a copy of David's LDM, BTW.

On the admin side, I am not a lawyer, but isn't "free" the way to be if you want to protect yourself from liability? It seems to me that censorship comes with potential legal liability in that what you might be construed as responsible for anything you choose not to censor.

[david i]

Hi Mike,

Not to pick nits, but while I certainly prefer discussion arenas that are not particularly controlling, and hypothesize that most people would (or should), I didn't actually ask why anyone would choose to participate in a forum that chills freedom of expression.

I like your observations though :)

regards

david

[Jon Szanto]

Wow, Mike. I couldn't have said it any better, and you very much describe my experience there (as a "heart-on-sleever").

[ethernautrix]

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.


Since a forum is not the sum of its administrator(s) and (changing) rules, it is sometimes difficult to make the guillotine cut (and there are other perhaps sentimental reasons when one has participated for several years before shit got real, so to speak -- and speaking such just because my words won't be substituted here (so, you know, only for illustrative (if crass) purposes)).

In other words, it isn't that simple to stop participating in a forum, cos one doesn't divorce only the offending admin or mod or whomever but everyone on the forum, and that's the hard part for many.

[mhosea]

Not to pick nits, but while I certainly prefer discussion arenas that are not particularly controlling, and hypothesize that most people would (or should), I didn't actually ask why anyone would choose to participate in a forum that chills freedom of expression.


I apologize. I was going from memory, and I was too lazy to look up the post that I had in mind, so I may even have the attribution wrong. It was a rhetorical question, of course, but that seldom stops me. :)

[david i]

Not to pick nits, but while I certainly prefer discussion arenas that are not particularly controlling, and hypothesize that most people would (or should), I didn't actually ask why anyone would choose to participate in a forum that chills freedom of expression.


I apologize. I was going from memory, and I was too lazy to look up the post that I had in mind, so I may even have the attribution wrong. It was a rhetorical question, of course, but that seldom stops me. :)

All good :)

-d

[Jon Szanto]

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.


In other words, it isn't that simple to stop participating in a forum, cos one doesn't divorce only the offending admin or mod or whomever but everyone on the forum, and that's the hard part for many.

Thank you, Lisa. I was about to post something similar.

Of all the elements of this discussion, the only one that actually makes me angry is when people blithely offer "well, if you don't like it, just leave".

I leave behind not only the offending parties (the admins, mods, and members who caused problems) but many friends made over the years, and a body of contributions that I've made. I've gathered off-forum contacts for a number of people at FPN and continue our friendships there, but that begs the issue: why, when I haven't done anything wrong, should I leave behind these people and these writings - this community?

No. I would rather stay and make things better. In this instance, however, it isn't possible.

[KrazyIvan]

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.


In other words, it isn't that simple to stop participating in a forum, cos one doesn't divorce only the offending admin or mod or whomever but everyone on the forum, and that's the hard part for many.

I can totally identify with this. My FPN activity has drastically diminished. I keep tabs on threads I have participated in or started and mainly the "Don't just tell us what pen you are using" thread. I will occasionally post in other threads and recently started a thread on the new Karas Kustoms fountain pen but not before checking the rules then rereading to make sure I did not shoot myself in the foot. Even after I posted I went back to make sure I did not miss something.

[85AKbN]

The FPN status page is now visible at 72.52.218.134 in case your DNS entries have not been updated.
there's that pcoac,luh again.

[Pterodactylus]

It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.


In other words, it isn't that simple to stop participating in a forum, cos one doesn't divorce only the offending admin or mod or whomever but everyone on the forum, and that's the hard part for many.

Thank you, Lisa. I was about to post something similar.

Of all the elements of this discussion, the only one that actually makes me angry is when people blithely offer "well, if you don't like it, just leave".

I leave behind not only the offending parties (the admins, mods, and members who caused problems) but many friends made over the years, and a body of contributions that I've made. I've gathered off-forum contacts for a number of people at FPN and continue our friendships there, but that begs the issue: why, when I haven't done anything wrong, should I leave behind these people and these writings - this community?

No. I would rather stay and make things better. In this instance, however, it isn't possible.

I understand and respect this thanks for your feedback. :)

But different to some, or especially one ex-member who preferred to destroy his contributions and threads for the community on his leave (out of cattiness), I see (my) contributions as a gift to the community, which I would never reclaim them or try to destroy them no matter what happened (with the management).

[david i]

I understand and respect this thanks for your feedback. :)

But different to some, or especially one ex-member who preferred to destroy his contributions and threads for the community on his leave (out of cattiness), I see (my) contributions as a gift to the community, which I would never reclaim them or try to destroy them no matter what happened (with the management).

Backtracking always entertains me. Thanks for entertaining me.

Lessee then...


destroy his contributions and threads for the community on his leave (out of cattiness)

Tactic 3 from the LDM. Strawman.

Tactic 1from the LDM. Ad Hominem Insult


Ahhh, that Losing Debater's Manual.

Let's go on


I would never reclaim them or try to destroy them no matter what happened

Strawman


We already clarified the fronts some time ago and I will not discuss anything with you anymore.

Bwaaahahahahaha.

Warmest Regards (heh)

-David

[WirsPlm]

Speaking as someone who spent years on gaming and various fandom forums, FPN's approach to aggression and bad language was a huge relief. It's not a matter of 'wearing your heart on your sleeve' (or whatever poetic language you want to use to dress up insensitivity and not thinking before speaking), it's a matter of expecting mature interactions and considered responses. I don't agree with all of the moderation policies (I think the ones regarding name-and-shame are dangerous and unhelpful), but I definitely see why the FPN admins chose to take their stance and appreciate the benefits it brings. It's good to have other forums for balance, and I'd never want to have to rely solely on FPN, but there are good reasons for a no-tolerance policy for the most popular English FP forum.

Abusive or uncaring mods are a separate issue from a hardline stance on aggressive posts. They're a terrible thing, but they happen all over (oh boy, do they) and the only surprise to me is that so few people have serious specific complaints about the FPN mods. There are several specific complaints that were serious (the stalker and Harlequin), but that's like a typical week for a gaming forum the size of FPN, or a typical day in the MMO of your choice.

[Pterodactylus]

Hugh,

IMO a forum is not the property of the people who contribute, they just uses a service somebody else hosts/provides.
And this somebody has any right to run HIS\Her forum in whatever way he/she likes.
Including setting up rules, and moderate (or even censor) it the way he/she wants, it neither has the obligation to be democratic, nor it has to allow every content or mindset.
...
Emphasis above is mine.

This way of thinking is wrong. Yes, what you said is true, but it makes for a very poor method of management. If you're a member of FPG, you have just as much say in how the forum is run as any admin, mod, or any other member. A forum is set up to encourage people to come together into a community, so why not let that community dictate how it's going to be managed?

Hi Dan,

This attitude honors you and it's highly appreciated. :clap2:

But I think it cannot be treated as granted as a mandatory requirement for every forum/place.

It is one way of managing a forum, and I hope it will work also in the future for FPG, but is has also potential threats as it depends on the mature acting of the contributors, and it requires that you are willing to let the contributors steer YOUR forum (maybe not in the direction you have in mind as Captain for your baby).

[david i]

Apologies. I left one out. Let's re-do that one cluster...


destroy his contributions and threads for the community on his leave (out of cattiness)

Tactic 3 from the LDM. Strawman.

Tactic 1from the LDM. Ad Hominem Insult

Aaaand

Tactic 5 from the LDM. "The Telepath" (if you have nothing of substance to contribute, assert insight into the thoughts/emotions of your opposition and... go figure... find them to be... bad"

Ahhh, that Losing Debater's Manual.


-----------

But we have new fodder now. Let's play with it



It is one way of managing a forum, and I hope it will work also in the future for FPG, but is has also potential threats as it depends on the mature acting of the contributors, and it requires that you are willing to let the contributors steer YOUR forum (maybe not in the direction you have in mind as Captain for your baby).

Tactic 19 from the LDM: The Concern Troll

Per Urban Dictionary, "A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of "concern," to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending. "

Oh, yeah... forgot... let's return to



destroy his contributions and threads for the community on his leave (out of cattiness)

Also Tactic 32 from the LDM: Hypocrisy. As per,


It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

So, it seems we have a simplistic "revere the rules or go away", but, "leave all the benefits".

Snort.

How does it go over there?

Oh, right...

Warmest Regards,

David :)

[shudaizi]

Speaking as someone who spent years on gaming and various fandom forums, FPN's approach to aggression and bad language was a huge relief. It's not a matter of 'wearing your heart on your sleeve' (or whatever poetic language you want to use to dress up insensitivity and not thinking before speaking), it's a matter of expecting mature interactions and considered responses. I don't agree with all of the moderation policies (I think the ones regarding name-and-shame are dangerous and unhelpful), but I definitely see why the FPN admins chose to take their stance and appreciate the benefits it brings. It's good to have other forums for balance, and I'd never want to have to rely solely on FPN, but there are good reasons for a no-tolerance policy for the most popular English FP forum.

Abusive or uncaring mods are a separate issue from a hardline stance on aggressive posts. They're a terrible thing, but they happen all over (oh boy, do they) and the only surprise to me is that so few people have serious specific complaints about the FPN mods. There are several specific complaints that were serious (the stalker and Harlequin), but that's like a typical week for a gaming forum the size of FPN, or a typical day in the MMO of your choice.

+1 to this. I've spent decades in various online venues going back to the late 1980s (early dial-in BBSes, IRC during its Wild West heyday, forums, etc.) and this accords with my experience too. Past a certain size, "hands off" moderation venues tend to degenerate and too often show worrying degrees of online bullying by the "in crowd". (Lest anyone get their hackles up, I'm not saying that is what happens here at FPG -- I haven't been here long enough to say / know.) So, I have no problem in principle with keeping a lid on aggressive interactions, even if that means some people feel their toes have been stepped on or their "free speech" squelched. Like you, I tend to separate the actions of individual mods from the editorial decision on moderation in general. In principle, there is no "right" or "wrong" choice.

[Sinistral1]

As a former member of the military (the entity with the most acronyisms, ever), I'm very curious to know what LDM stands for. Sounds like something from an early Woody Allen movie.

[Pterodactylus]

Apologies. I left one out. Let's re-do that one cluster...


Tactic 3 from the LDM. Strawman.

Tactic 1from the LDM. Ad Hominem Insult

Aaaand

Tactic 5 from the LDM. "The Telepath" (if you have nothing of substance to contribute, assert insight into the thoughts/emotions of your opposition and... go figure... find them to be... bad"

Ahhh, that Losing Debater's Manual.


-----------

But we have new fodder now. Let's play with it



It is one way of managing a forum, and I hope it will work also in the future for FPG, but is has also potential threats as it depends on the mature acting of the contributors, and it requires that you are willing to let the contributors steer YOUR forum (maybe not in the direction you have in mind as Captain for your baby).

Tactic 19 from the LDM: The Concern Troll

Per Urban Dictionary, "A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of "concern," to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending. "

Oh, yeah... forgot... let's return to



destroy his contributions and threads for the community on his leave (out of cattiness)

Also Tactic 32 from the LDM: Hypocrisy. As per,


It is quite simple, if you don't like the rules or how a forum is running, go away and search for a different playground nobody force you to participate.
Full stop.

So, it seems we have a simplistic "revere the rules or go away", but, "leave all the benefits".

Snort.

How does it go over there?

Oh, right...

Warmest Regards,

David :)

You are boring me sad little troll, but keep your posts coming so that everybody can see your true face clearly :)

[79spitfire]

The LDM (Loser's Debate Manual) Is David's tactic when he feels a poster hasn't made their point, and I believe when he feels the need to 'blow off' a response.

I find it a bit on the juvenile side.

[david i]

As a former member of the military (the entity with the most acronyisms, ever), I'm very curious to know what LDM stands for. Sounds like something from an early Woody Allen movie.

Inspiration perhaps. ;)

The reference was cited above and has been before, though nestled in threads generally.

LDM is the vaunted Losing Debater's Manual, a famous compendium of tactics used by those engaged in heady discussion or even debate who lack solid points of substance, used to try to distract opponent and/or judges from their losing issues / position.

In fact a good debater (debate processor) with winning technique, in situations when he finds himself on the defensive regarding subject matter (he is losing on the issues) and when he thinks he can get away with it, can embrace the tactics from the LDM to win, even though he lacks a strong enough or meritorious enough issues-oriented position. When politicians demagogue an issue, they basically are using the LDM. This of course depends on weak debate processing by opponents and by lack of awareness by an audience/judge.

A good debater (debate processor) who also in a given chat has a strong hand regarding issues of substance, in turn will find himself confronted by tactics from the LDM by opponents who don't have good issues-oriented positions, since the opponents are scrabbling to score points even when in the wrong on points of substance.

Poor debaters (debate processers) often descend into tactics from the LDM because they are not good at forming a cogent issues-oriented argument even when they have (in theory) a strong stance on issues. That is unfortunate... for them.

For the Winning Debater, rather than getting sucked into directly addressing and responding to name calling, claims by the opponent to know what he is thinking or why he believes things, diversionary straw man arguments, and the like, the best approach by far (this is from the WDM) is simply to call out emotional, distracting, issues-free, manipulative, condescending distractions for what they are. Why go tit-for-tat with a name-caller, when citing his use of Tactic 1 from the LDM (Ad Hominem Insult) serves the purpose and keeps one from descending into the mud with the pig, metaphorically speaking of course.

regards

david

[david i]

The LDM (Loser's Debate Manual) Is David's tactic when he feels a poster hasn't made their point, and I believe when he feels the need to 'blow off' a response.

I find it a bit on the juvenile side.

Tactic 5 from the LDM: "The Telepath". Absent issues of substance, assert insight into the thoughts or personality of your opponent and-- go figure--find them to be bad.

Tactic1 from the LDM: Ad Hominem Insult.


See Senistral1?

He offers nothing about why I might be right or wrong regarding my take on FPN or FPG or Hugh or Swiss Cheese. Nothing of substance. No issues. Just tactics from the LDM.

Calling out the LDM is a powerful tool in discussion and also once learned, insight into the LDM lets one address cranky commentary in a dispassionate fashion.

I rather like it.

regards

david

[david i]

You are boring me sad little troll, but keep your posts coming so that everybody can see your true face clearly :)


Tactic 1 from the LDM, Ad Hominem Insult

Tactic 29 from the LDM: "When losing a debate on points of substance, complain of boredom"

Prior post:


We already clarified the fronts some time ago and I will not discuss anything with you anymore.

Lessee...

1. Hehehehe

2. Tactic 27 from the LDM. Fail to stay away from discussion you insist you will never address again. (Incidental sign of weakness)

regards

david

[mhosea]

It's not a matter of 'wearing your heart on your sleeve' (or whatever poetic language you want to use to dress up insensitivity and not thinking before speaking), it's a matter of expecting mature interactions and considered responses.

I can assure you that by "wearing ones heart on ones sleeve" I did not mean being insensitive or not thinking before responding. People who wear their hearts on their sleeves are, IMHO, among the least likely people on the planet to be insensitive, but if you give offense to them by making backhanded insults in what only on the surface appears to be "mature and considered", they tend to respond in kind but without the necessary obfuscation of their intent to keep them out of trouble.

The atmosphere that tends to form in the absence of moderation is quite different depending on the community behind the forum. While FPN would surely have been a breath of fresh air to you compared to a gaming forum, I don't think the comparison is instructive because the communities behind them are so different. We have unmoderated examples to refer to, like FPB, and they seem quite civil to me.

(edit: BTW, my first online discussion was on BITNET in the late 1980's, so I can make some claim to having "been around" as well.)

[raging.dragon]

Hugh,

IMO a forum is not the property of the people who contribute, they just uses a service somebody else hosts/provides.
And this somebody has any right to run HIS\Her forum in whatever way he/she likes.
Including setting up rules, and moderate (or even censor) it the way he/she wants, it neither has the obligation to be democratic, nor it has to allow every content or mindset.
...
Emphasis above is mine.

This way of thinking is wrong. Yes, what you said is true, but it makes for a very poor method of management. If you're a member of FPG, you have just as much say in how the forum is run as any admin, mod, or any other member. A forum is set up to encourage people to come together into a community, so why not let that community dictate how it's going to be managed?

You're both correct. Wim owns FPN and has the right to run it as he sees fit. Likewise, Dan owns FPG and has the right to run it as he sees fit. However, the discussion isn't really about legal or moral rights, it is instead about how best to build and maintain a forum community. For what it's worth, over the last few months at FPN, since the first outage and the big bruhaha over paid memberships, there has been alot less content that I find interesting.

[79spitfire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Please feel free to draw your own conclusions...

As a whole this thread has fallen from a simple question of another site being available to a slew of "ad hominem" insults....

[mhosea]

Well, if we don't like the way it's degenerated, let's degenerate it differently. Was anybody else frustrated that usenet newbies started to use the word "troll" to describe someone who was "trolling"? Suddenly what was a sensible reference to a manner of fishing became something to do with fictional monsters who live under bridges.

[raging.dragon]

Listing logical fallacies (especially without explanation) and criticising an oppononents debating skill is itself a form of ad hominem attack. The competence of a debater at debating does not tell us anything about the validity and worth of the arguments the debater is (trying to) present. In referencing the LDM, while failing to include any substantive arguments in those posts, you are using the very LDM tactics you criticise.

[raging.dragon]

Well, if we don't like the way it's degenerated, let's degenerate it differently. Was anybody else frustrated that usenet newbies started to use the word "troll" to describe someone who was "trolling"? Suddenly what was a sensible reference to a manner of fishing became something to do with fictional monsters who live under bridges.

Nah. I'd rather argue endlessly about logical fallacies.

:argue:

[raging.dragon]

You insist upon attacking a person who you know will not respond to you here, over and over. Most of us don't know the details of your issue and it actually doesn't matter. Frankly to observers, you come off looking far worse than Wim.
(Emphasis mine.)

That is until something similar happens to you, right? To think that it can't or won't is being naive.

Having seen David's and Hugh's posts here, and being at least somewhat familiar with FPN's written and unwritten rules - their personalities are incompatible with FPN's rules so the outcome was inevitable and the specifics don't matter much. On the otherhand, I am concerned about what happened Chemyst, jbb, and others with less aggressive and argumentative personalities. I half expect to get banned from FPN for my comments in this thread and the Harlequin thread.

[david i]

As a whole this thread has fallen from a simple question of another site being available to a slew of "ad hominem" insults....

I disagree. Mike's recent posts alone wholly disprove the whole of this thread having fallen to a slew of... well...anything.

regards

david

[david i]

Listing logical fallacies (especially without explanation) and criticising an oppononents debating skill is itself a form of ad hominem attack. The competence of a debater at debating does not tell us anything about the validity and worth of the arguments the debater is (trying to) present. In referencing the LDM, while failing to include any substantive arguments in those posts, you are using the very LDM tactics you criticise.

Tactic 33 from the LDM: Object to proper use of the LDM.

Just sayin'...

regards

david

[HughC]

Hugh,

IMO a forum is not the property of the people who contribute, they just uses a service somebody else hosts/provides.
And this somebody has any right to run HIS\Her forum in whatever way he/she likes.
Including setting up rules, and moderate (or even censor) it the way he/she wants, it neither has the obligation to be democratic, nor it has to allow every content or mindset.

If contributors don't like it anymore, they have the right to go away and contribute somewhere else or decide to host an own forum the way they like.

If too many people don't like how a place is run it will die automatically.
Currently I can't see that FPN dies, as it is by far the biggest pen forum and it is still growing, so it seems for the majority of contributors the way how the place is run is acceptable.

You never can please everybody....

It's not an argument that holds up in the "real world", a number of institutions here in Australia covered up child abuse on the grounds it was "their" business where the reality is it was criminal and ruined/affected a lot over a long period. Likewise people expect certain standards from every facet of their life and that includes on line forums, that owners and users of online forums are subject to laws too is often overlooked. Of course an owner has a lot of rights to run it as he chooses, we all accept that. I actually believe the FPN has a lot to offer yet the same issues seem to continually resurface, yes I do "go on" a bit in the vague hope that change ( for the better) will occur and I also believe Wim is the major problem....seeing he owns it....the responsibility for changing the "culture" is his and that he fails to do so means more people will continue to be affected. That is no way to run anything, least of all a pen forum.

Regards
Hugh

[david i]

You insist upon attacking a person who you know will not respond to you here, over and over. Most of us don't know the details of your issue and it actually doesn't matter. Frankly to observers, you come off looking far worse than Wim.
(Emphasis mine.)

That is until something similar happens to you, right? To think that it can't or won't is being naive.

Having seen David's and Hugh's posts here, and being at least somewhat familiar with FPN's written and unwritten rules - their personalities are incompatible with FPN's rules so the outcome was inevitable and the specifics don't matter much. On the otherhand, I am concerned about what happened Chemyst, jbb, and others with less aggressive and argumentative personalities. I half expect to get banned from FPN for my comments in this thread and the Harlequin thread.


Hmmm...

First they came for the gypsies, but I wasn't a gypsy so I didn't object.

Then they came for the developmentally disabled but I wasn't....


Common Denominator?

[79spitfire]

I am concerned as well. What happened to JBB, and Chemyst is disturbing. If the allegations against Harlequin turn out to be true, it will be disturbing as well.

I don't really wish to get myself banned, but in truth it wouldn't be the end of the world. It is just a forum board, after all.

[HughC]

I wonder why Wim is so much the point of discussion rather than the issues of a heavily controlled forum versus a free one. David asks why would anyone choose to participate in a forum that chills freedom of expression, and I think the answer is a matter of momentum (the larger community seems to offer advantages) and insecurity (delicate eyes/ears strongly prefer not to be offended). The former is purely practical in nature. The latter is more problematic when the goal is to be protected from free speech, but I gather that a certain percentage of people regard their participation as purely a diversion, R&R, and conflict is something they view as ruining the purely entertainment value that they are seeking out of their participation. I have always supposed that FPN was geared towards that, to be the comfortable site for the masses to discuss passing interests rather than a site for aficionados to discuss their passion. Passion is not really compatible with censorship, IMHO. But the sheer size and age of FPN has made the defacto site, despite that passionate people may run into trouble there.

Apparently my style is generally tolerated, if not always liked, but I prefer reading forums that are free. One reason is that I find that passive-aggressive personalities always find ways of pushing other people's buttons within the confines of what is acceptable in the forum, whereas other personalities, including the sorts of people who wear their hearts on their sleeves, cannot always navigate those limitations. I like people who wear their hearts on their sleeves. I need a copy of David's LDM, BTW.

On the admin side, I am not a lawyer, but isn't "free" the way to be if you want to protect yourself from liability? It seems to me that censorship comes with potential legal liability in that what you might be construed as responsible for anything you choose not to censor.

Hi Mike,

I believe (?) the FPN has been incorporated, citing potential legal liabilities. A move I found hard to follow until fees came along. Wim , being the owner, bears responsibility for any issues that arise so it's not surprising to me he features prominently.

Regards
Hugh

[david i]

Listing logical fallacies (especially without explanation) and criticising an oppononents debating skill is itself a form of ad hominem attack.

'Failing to tolerate intolerance is so intolerant".

Heh.

Note, No one's debating skills have been criticized.

Note that criticizing something appropriately, if any criticism occurred, by definition cannot be Ad Hominem.

regards

daivd

[HughC]

You insist upon attacking a person who you know will not respond to you here, over and over. Most of us don't know the details of your issue and it actually doesn't matter. Frankly to observers, you come off looking far worse than Wim.
(Emphasis mine.)

That is until something similar happens to you, right? To think that it can't or won't is being naive.

Having seen David's and Hugh's posts here, and being at least somewhat familiar with FPN's written and unwritten rules - their personalities are incompatible with FPN's rules so the outcome was inevitable and the specifics don't matter much. On the otherhand, I am concerned about what happened Chemyst, jbb, and others with less aggressive and argumentative personalities. I half expect to get banned from FPN for my comments in this thread and the Harlequin thread.

I don't think "incompatible" the issue, I rarely stepped over the line on FPN and in truth and had far more "dished out" to me than I gave. I doubt you'll be banned, nor are your comments anything other than what most think

Regards
Hugh

[raging.dragon]

Listing logical fallacies (especially without explanation) and criticising an oppononents debating skill is itself a form of ad hominem attack. The competence of a debater at debating does not tell us anything about the validity and worth of the arguments the debater is (trying to) present. In referencing the LDM, while failing to include any substantive arguments in those posts, you are using the very LDM tactics you criticise.

Tactic 33 from the LDM: Object to proper use of the LDM.

Just sayin'...

regards

david

Indeed, the irony amused me. Of course, we could turn this argument back at one another interminably....

[david i]

Listing logical fallacies (especially without explanation) and criticising an oppononents debating skill is itself a form of ad hominem attack. The competence of a debater at debating does not tell us anything about the validity and worth of the arguments the debater is (trying to) present. In referencing the LDM, while failing to include any substantive arguments in those posts, you are using the very LDM tactics you criticise.

Tactic 33 from the LDM: Object to proper use of the LDM.

Just sayin'...

regards

david

Indeed, the irony amused me. Of course, we could turn this argument back at one another interminably....

I'm game...

Too, of course there is error in your original suggestion. No debater's competence factored into anything I've said, at least. The LDM is about tactics used in the setting of a losing proposition. As per my earlier thread, the LDM can be used by both poor and excellent debaters. That people appear to see themselves as having been assigned the role of "poor debater" I find... interesting.

regards

david

[raging.dragon]

You insist upon attacking a person who you know will not respond to you here, over and over. Most of us don't know the details of your issue and it actually doesn't matter. Frankly to observers, you come off looking far worse than Wim.
(Emphasis mine.)

That is until something similar happens to you, right? To think that it can't or won't is being naive.

Having seen David's and Hugh's posts here, and being at least somewhat familiar with FPN's written and unwritten rules - their personalities are incompatible with FPN's rules so the outcome was inevitable and the specifics don't matter much. On the otherhand, I am concerned about what happened Chemyst, jbb, and others with less aggressive and argumentative personalities. I half expect to get banned from FPN for my comments in this thread and the Harlequin thread.


Hmmm...

First they came for the gypsies, but I wasn't a gypsy so I didn't object.

Then they came for the developmentally disabled but I wasn't....


Common Denominator?

Now in good old Usenet fashion I guess we have to argue the sematics of Godwin's Law, and whether or not it is appropriate to compare the powers that be at FPN to brutal totalitarian governments?

[mhosea]

I disagree. Mike's recent posts alone wholly disprove the whole of this thread having fallen to a slew of... well...anything.


I was trying to lead by example, but at this point I feel like the lone buffalo who, having diverged from herd, looks back and says "Come on guys, let's go this way!"

[david i]

You insist upon attacking a person who you know will not respond to you here, over and over. Most of us don't know the details of your issue and it actually doesn't matter. Frankly to observers, you come off looking far worse than Wim.
(Emphasis mine.)

That is until something similar happens to you, right? To think that it can't or won't is being naive.

Having seen David's and Hugh's posts here, and being at least somewhat familiar with FPN's written and unwritten rules - their personalities are incompatible with FPN's rules so the outcome was inevitable and the specifics don't matter much. On the otherhand, I am concerned about what happened Chemyst, jbb, and others with less aggressive and argumentative personalities. I half expect to get banned from FPN for my comments in this thread and the Harlequin thread.


Hmmm...

First they came for the gypsies, but I wasn't a gypsy so I didn't object.

Then they came for the developmentally disabled but I wasn't....


Common Denominator?

Now in good old Usenet fashion I guess we have to argue the sematics of Godwin's Law, and whether or not it is appropriate to compare the powers that be at FPN to brutal totalitarian governments?

Hardly Godwin's.

Metaphor for style has nothing to do with goal set. Powerful parallel though no doubt.

Yer turn.

regards

-d

[raging.dragon]

[...] That people appear to see themselves as having been assigned the role of "poor debater" I find... interesting.

The use here of LDM tactic 5, and probably 1 as well, is also interesting.

[david i]

I disagree. Mike's recent posts alone wholly disprove the whole of this thread having fallen to a slew of... well...anything.


I was trying to lead by example, but at this point I feel like the lone buffalo who, having diverged from herd, looks back and says "Come on guys, let's go this way!"

Well, I was complimenting your notes. You are trying to fight the good fight. I respect that.

regards

david

[dannzeman]

Good times. So, let's talk about pens, shall we?