Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

[Jon Szanto]

Dear Admin(s):

We've seen a growth, with a good deal of tolerance as well, in topics that are non-pen-centric. Specifically some religious threads. People are remarking to each other for the need for self-monitoring and doing so very well. That said, I might have a suggestion if this continues to flourish.

One methodology for keeping all of these manner of topics in line without abusive or excessive moderation is the have them in a very specific place. In one net forum I was active on, it was called "Politics, Religion, and Society", which we all abbreviated to PRS for short. The idea is that anything in that forum is expected to be of a personal nature, may very well contain thoughts that others find... different, and each and every member that takes part in those discussions bears in mind the subject matter may lead to... passion. It manages, to a very great degree, to allow for healthy and vigorous discussion while keeping these subjects all in one area, because, yes, not everyone wants general craziness in the middle of their pen stuff!

I just thought I would throw the idea out there. And here is the sub-forum description from the aforementioned site, which I find both funny and spot-on:

"Topics pertaining to politics, religion, philosophy, and social issues. Not for the faint of heart. Also, do not post while drunk, suffering from food poisoning, or while on a low carb diet. You have been warned."

Discuss.

[tandaina]

Not a bad idea, though I'm not sure if a different area is necessary. I sort of figure the one we have now is where we talk about all sorts of random things.

I find it very important that we learn/practice talking to one another about things we feel passionately about without doing violence to each other. (Not just physical, forums can get down right hurtful.) In general we tend to decide that if something might cause difference of opinion the only option is to ban its presence. Hence those oft repeated jokes about "don't talk about politics or religion." Unfortunately that leaves us utterly unprepared to talk about anything that arises great passion in others in a civilized manner. A humanist and an Episcopal priest (or Buddhist monk, or Imam, or Rabbi, etc) should know how to discuss our different ideas while treating one another with respect. The way we treat each other in daily life translates to national and international conversation. So perhaps some civilized pen people can change our rancorous culture just a tiny bit with our careful conversation of big stuff!

(This is why I do very little on twitter, I am not brief.)

[Manny]

Dear Admin(s):
Discuss.

I second your commotion!

[Titivillus]

Life is easier if you realize that other people have different opinions than you and trying to force yours on someone else is a work of futility. The semi-anonymous internet makes it easier for people to try the latter than if you were in the same room with another person.

Live and let live.

[mhosea]

I think it's a good idea because it will ensnare fewer people accidentally. I used to engage in a lot of internet debate on issues of religion, and that recent thread reminded me of why I stopped doing that.

[Laura N]

Great idea, Jon.

I understand that some enjoy conversations about politics and religion with people on the internet. However, those folks might please understand that other people really don't. Talking about politics or religion is not the same type of off-topic discussion as music or movies.

Putting it in a separate sub-forum seems like a great way to handle it. Everyone who enjoys that stuff, or is curious, can read it. And others can just enjoy talking about pens and inks.

[Lady Onogaro]

On "All About Romance" that thread is called "The Wild West" and it is described as the place where everything and anything is allowed to be discussed.

[Mortiana27]

I thought that this was exactly what the "Off Topic" section of the forum was created to do. To share whatever else tickles our fancy (outside of the obvious FP, paper, penmanship, etc), and as with all other threads ... if others are interested in reading and commenting ... conversation begins. Why do we tend to forget there is a back button that can be clicked when faced with a topic that is not tickling our fancy?

[Jon Szanto]

I thought that this was exactly what the "Off Topic" section of the forum was created to do. To share whatever else tickles our fancy (outside of the obvious FP, paper, penmanship, etc), and as with all other threads ... if others are interested in reading and commenting ... conversation begins. Why do we tend to forget there is a back button that can be clicked when faced with a topic that is not tickling our fancy?
Sure, I completely understand that sentiment. What I've found, over about 2 decades of participating in, as well as administering and moderating forums, is that it is helpful to actually have a sub-area where topics of a more delicate nature can be handled in full blaze.

The Lounge certainly is a perfect place for most anything, but when two topics bump up against each other as you scroll a list, say... Show Us Your Spring Flowers! and Catholic Apologists Deny Atrocities, I have found that there is a significant number of people who actually say "I would prefer to not even see this topic". And I think "Who am I to say that it is wrong for them to feel that way? Is it really my place to tell them to simply scroll on past that?"

I am, and will continue to be, perfectly happy however people want to deal with this. We're lucky: we're allowed open dialogue here. The measure of the quality of our community is how well we deal with that freedom, even if it means just opening a dialogue about strategies that eventually don't go anywhere.

[Mags]

I believe this forum suggestion has a place and purpose. Politics and Religion and other Social Issues were often discussed by handwritten letters or by modern printed press and now by blog and digital fora.

Some amazing people use fountain pens and respectful disagreements or collaboration lead to enlightened exchanges.

[VertOlive]

I thought that the "Lounge" area of the forum was for exactly this and am still not sure why we'd need another special section. If it's not pen-related, it goes in the Lounge. If you don't like looking at other people's dogs or reading whatever personal musings they post, you needn't. So I gues I'm comfortable with the "Scroll Past This" approach and would do just that if I saw something that I didn't care to read about--I don't think people need to be "protected" to that extent.

That said, I'm easy whatever needs to be done, if anything. I'm a generally affable Pen Geek and usually pop in on every discussion this notably intelligent group cares to ponder, and always take something of worth from it.

[Manny]

How about this--users who visit a "PRS" type sub-forum know EXACTLY what they're stepping into.

[Jon Szanto]

How about this--users who visit a "PRS" type sub-forum know EXACTLY what they're stepping into.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lasmpzzeeO1qe0eclo1_r2_500.gif

[Farmboy]

Yes waiter, I will have another glass of ice water. I'm going to stick around and watch.

[gweddig]

Yes waiter, I will have another glass of ice water. I'm going to stick around and watch.

You may need something stronger.

[Mortiana27]

The Lounge certainly is a perfect place for most anything, but when two topics bump up against each other as you scroll a list, say... Show Us Your Spring Flowers! and Catholic Apologists Deny Atrocities, I have found that there is a significant number of people who actually say "I would prefer to not even see this topic". And I think "Who am I to say that it is wrong for them to feel that way? Is it really my place to tell them to simply scroll on past that?"

I can appreciate the desire to do something like this, and it's ultimately not going to affect my forum usage in any way. I'm okay with it either way :D

[Paul-H]

I also have an imaginary friend can I also have a sub forum :)

Remember just because there is no proof my Imaginary friend does not exist does not mean he does not :)

Personally I do not think this forum is the right place for a Religious forum, given that 99% of the worlds evil has a religious background to it.

Yes everyone is entitled to their own views on religion (me included) but no one has the right to ram it down the throats of those who choose to have a life unencumbered by the outdated teachings of Religion, In the educated modern world more people chose an educated view on this matter than choose the ancient outdated religious view.

NO RELIGION or POLITICS Please

Don't ruin a perfectly good form just to appease a minority

[Manny]

I also have an imaginary friend can I also have a sub forum :)

Remember just because there is no proof my Imaginary friend does not exist does not mean he does not :)

Personally I do not think this forum is the right place for a Religious forum, given that 99% of the worlds evil has a religious background to it.

Yes everyone is entitled to their own views on religion (me included) but no one has the right to ram it down the throats of those who choose to have a life unencumbered by the outdated teachings of Religion, In the educated modern world more people chose an educated view on this matter than choose the ancient outdated religious view.

NO RELIGION or POLITICS Please

Don't ruin a perfectly good form just to appease a minority

Judging from the responces to this thread, it appears that YOU are THE minority right now.

[writingrav]

I also have an imaginary friend can I also have a sub forum :)

Remember just because there is no proof my Imaginary friend does not exist does not mean he does not :)

Personally I do not think this forum is the right place for a Religious forum, given that 99% of the worlds evil has a religious background to it.

Yes everyone is entitled to their own views on religion (me included) but no one has the right to ram it down the throats of those who choose to have a life unencumbered by the outdated teachings of Religion, In the educated modern world more people chose an educated view on this matter than choose the ancient outdated religious view.

NO RELIGION or POLITICS Please

Don't ruin a perfectly good form just to appease a minority

Judging from the responces to this thread, I believe that YOU are THE minority right now.

A minority of one in a friendly forum disenfranchises someone who joined because he/she loves pens and may very legitimately not want to be distracted by conversations on subjects that person finds problematic. Folks this thread already proves the risks of going down this road. Can't people take their other interests other places?

[ethernautrix]

I say, let 'er rip.

One facet of being human is negotiating all the differences we bring to the interaction.

You know, if you don't want to play, you don't have to.

I would rather open a thread, see the subject, blanch and dry heave or roll my eyes on this side of the screen, then close the window and move on than deprive others of the opportunity to discuss the subjects they're most interested in. And I would like the same opportunity. I mean, I like pens, but I don't restrict my discussion to only pens. I like a variety, and I find pen people to be usually very civil in discourse.

I don't have any imaginary friends. I wish I had a dozen of them, as Robert Webb did when he was a young boy (can't remember in which episode of Would I Lie to You? this information was revealed). But I appreciate discussions that reveal how people struggle with finding meaning or how they came to understand their faith or lack of faith. Some put more stock in religion than others, but it's the same struggle.

As for politics, I would love to see thoughtful political discussion (as opposed to reactionary blurb-winging - although I wouldn't ban the latter, but it would tell me more about the person winging blurbs rather than offering well-reasoned arguments, and that will be unavoidable). Maybe (American) politics is in such a shambles cos we've been admonished for years not to discuss it, and now we don't know how to talk about it without yelling and looking stupid to each other.

All we have to do in discussion is to give the respect to others' opinions that we want for ours. This doesn't mean agreement. If you have to, you could think, "I respect his right to sound like an uninformed jerkbag," snigger to yourself, and move on. You don't have to say it. That's what I mean about respect vis-à-vis volatile subjects, such as, "Which do you prefer, clipless pens or pens with clips?" Oh, the hard positions some hold on this matter! (That one's on fpn - and not locked!)

My opinion on this sub-forum idea is that I'd rather not, as such a move would indicate that we are unruly and unable to control ourselves. But if a separate sub-forum is what people want to protect themselves from accidentally espying a topic they'd prefer to avoid, well... okay. Either way, I'm likely to take a look at the topics, so separate-sub-forum, not-separate-sub-forum, machts nichts.

[ethernautrix]

A minority of one in a friendly forum disenfranchises someone who joined because he/she loves pens and may very legitimately not want to be distracted by conversations on subjects that person finds problematic. Folks this thread already proves the risks of going down this road. Can't people take their other interests other places?

Am I to understand you to mean that everyone should stop talking about subjects that one person might find problematic? Wouldn't it be easier if that one person avoided the conversation?

I believe there are other fountain pen forums that focus only on pens (repair, history - technical knowledge over socializing), but I don't go there, because I am not interested in pens to that degree. I enjoy a variety of subjects. Maybe I'm the sole voice that should be heard and respected with regard to topics. Or maybe jar or or annie or jon or kia or manny or paul or.... I mean, which one of us should have this sole veto power?

As I said above, I enjoy discourse amongst pen people, as it tends to be civil, and pen people tend to be very knowledgeable about many subjects and courteous and patient. I prefer the well-rounded experience of this board in particular and would rather not join several other boards on several other topics, because... I like THESE people.

I find the Internet distracting, but I don't expect others to take the Internet away from me, because I can't control my attention. That's my responsibility.

[ethernautrix]

P.S. I found Paul-H's dissenting opinion to be somewhat offensively worded, and I agree with his opinion to some extent, but I know I wouldn't change a person of faith's opinion by expressing myself as he did. That's an error in tactics (if persuading religious folks to stop being religious were his goal, which I am not saying it was).

I understand the frustration, but I don't mind it. I'd still rather have the conversation.

[writingrav]

Ok. Last try and then I will forever hold my piece on this question. What I am saying is that the tone and level of discourse on the forum has already changed as a result of these threads. I think that is too bad as someone who has enjoyed the camaraderie for over three years daily. Religion happens to be my life and my profession though it is a minority religion. I'm used to that. I can see these discussions getting uncomfortable and was just suggesting we don't need that. That's it. I'm done.

[ethernautrix]

Well, now you've piqued my curiosity, writingrav, and I would be interested in hearing more about your minority religion - but I am not pushing for an explanation. Saying only that I am curious. I minored in religious studies, because I was interested in how religions, or religious beliefs, inform people's and, collectively, society's ways of being. I wanted to know how religious beliefs influenced or affected me by cultural osmosis, for instance.

I have observed changing tones at fpn over six years, and I think it's a natural dynamic of forums in general. Also in friendships - the less critical enthusiasm at the beginning, the eyebrow-raising revelations of character, the continued friendships in some cases and not in others, as details are revealed and shared. The only constant one has any control over is oneself.

[johniem]

I think such a sub-forum will only serve to alienate some loyal members. I'm here to learn about fountain pens and related subject and to hear/read the valued information more experienced members may offer. I may occasionally offer opinions based on my own limited experience with pens. But for politics and religion, I will go to forums (fora?) focused on such subjects. I'm here to relax among cyber-friends with a mutual interest in fountain pens and all things writing.

[pengeezer]

I say, let 'er rip.

One facet of being human is negotiating all the differences we bring to the interaction.

You know, if you don't want to play, you don't have to.

I would rather open a thread, see the subject, blanch and dry heave or roll my eyes on this side of the screen, then close the window and move on than deprive others of the opportunity to discuss the subjects they're most interested in. And I would like the same opportunity. I mean, I like pens, but I don't restrict my discussion to only pens. I like a variety, and I find pen people to be usually very civil in discourse.

I don't have any imaginary friends. I wish I had a dozen of them, as Robert Webb did when he was a young boy (can't remember in which episode of Would I Lie to You? this information was revealed). But I appreciate discussions that reveal how people struggle with finding meaning or how they came to understand their faith or lack of faith. Some put more stock in religion than others, but it's the same struggle.

As for politics, I would love to see thoughtful political discussion (as opposed to reactionary blurb-winging - although I wouldn't ban the latter, but it would tell me more about the person winging blurbs rather than offering well-reasoned arguments, and that will be unavoidable). Maybe (American) politics is in such a shambles cos we've been admonished for years not to discuss it, and now we don't know how to talk about it without yelling and looking stupid to each other.

All we have to do in discussion is to give the respect to others' opinions that we want for ours. This doesn't mean agreement. If you have to, you could think, "I respect his right to sound like an uninformed jerkbag," snigger to yourself, and move on. You don't have to say it. That's what I mean about respect vis-à-vis volatile subjects, such as, "Which do you prefer, clipless pens or pens with clips?" Oh, the hard positions some hold on this matter! (That one's on fpn - and not locked!)

My opinion on this sub-forum idea is that I'd rather not, as such a move would indicate that we are unruly and unable to control ourselves. But if a separate sub-forum is what people want to protect themselves from accidentally espying a topic they'd prefer to avoid, well... okay. Either way, I'm likely to take a look at the topics, so separate-sub-forum, not-separate-sub-forum, machts nichts.

I'm with Lisa on this one for the same reasons that she brings up. It's amazing that some subjects don't
garner the same heat as politics and religion do,but everyone handles a heated subject differently.
I'm one of those that agree to disagree because we all aren't going to think the same way. Still,if
that's what is going to be done,my day isn't going to be ruined by it--there are a small number of
subjects in the Lounge that I don't bother to look at because they don't interest me. Still,I respect
the views that other folks hold--it's not my job to change them.

So if we have a sub-forum for just politics,religion and whatever......then macht nichts.


John

[jar]

I am amazed that someone could be offended by the title of a thread such as "I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief. (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/6210-I-was-born-into-a-religious-southern-family-A-personal-path-to-belief)"

It is clearly labeled explaining the content, points out that it involves personal belief and that it will be about religion.

[Manny]

I think such a sub-forum will only serve to alienate some loyal members. I'm here to learn about fountain pens and related subject and to hear/read the valued information more experienced members may offer. I may occasionally offer opinions based on my own limited experience with pens. But for politics and religion, I will go to forums (fora?) focused on such subjects. I'm here to relax among cyber-friends with a mutual interest in fountain pens and all things writing.

So, there wouldn't be a need for you to ever visit the Off Topic area of this forum then.
The ""Lenten Scriptures" thread in the Creative Writing sub-forum, shares not only my devotion to Scripture, but also of my affinity to actually use my fountain pens--and other writing instruments.
If anyone chooses to discuss what I post, they will not be discussing it with me. Others can decide for themselves.

[dannzeman]

I just want to let everyone know that I am keeping tabs on this thread, not because of its tone or subject, but to see what the majority of members' views are.

I can't say I'm opposed to another sub-forum within the Off-Topic forum. If religion and politics are a popular subject, then I think it should have its own forum, the same way we add other forums for a specific brand of pen or when we added the Creative Writing sub-forum to The Creative Side.

One thing we won't do is ban discussion of a particular topic. That's too much of a slippery slope.

[DrChumley]

I will add my comments to this fray, then I'm going to bow out for good.

Several years ago, I went through a very difficult, very personal journey from a life of an invested believer to one of uncertainty, and eventually, to one of a non-believer. It was a transition which was horrible, painful, and completely necessary for me to undertake. There are scars from that time in my life which may never heal fully. I lost friends, gained others, and caused a great deal of hurt to people around me as I struggled to figure out my own path in life. Since that time, I have worked very hard not to hold any bitterness or animosity in my heart. It hasn't been easy. But I've been on both sides; I can see the good intentions of each, the points-of-view from which each side is approaching a discussion.

I've done my best to stay uninvolved from the discussions around religion on this board, as I do in all of my various haunts online. A subforum might help me avoid those discussions to a certain extent, but I've found that when discussions in one small part of a forum get heated, they tend to infect the other parts of the site. (e.g., a perfectly reasonable request for a subforum ends up with a post intentionally meant to offend by using terms like "imaginary friend" to refer to others' deeply held and exceptionally personal beliefs. A move which, if I may say, I find to be an exceptionally immature and disrepectful way of disagreeing with someone, with the apparent intent of belittling and enflaming.)

I often use the "What's New" link and the Tapatalk "Unread" sections, neither of which give me the ability to hide certain subforums. (And in the case of the Tapatalk client, even shows a teaser of the text within the thread.) And, having managed forums in the past, I understand Dan's refusal to ban certain topics outright. It is a slippery slope.

But I'll be honest: I don't want to see these topics of discussion at all.

I started haunting FPGeeks for two reasons.

1) I wanted to learn more about fountain pens, ink, and paper.
2) I found this forum to be the most friendly, accepting, and welcoming of the scant few pen forums out there, without a whole host of rules that define everything you can and can not post.

Unfortunately, as my time here has gone on, I've found fewer and fewer FP-related posts, and a whole lot more of what I would consider to be "fluff." And I have found that the overall tenor of the forum has started to shift--it simply doesn't feel as friendly to me here as it once did. It seems that folks are becoming less patient with one another, and less interested in actually talking about the whole subject of the forums: fountain pens.

Frankly, I can go anywhere on the internet and find people doing their best to offend or judge one another over politics and religion. I don't need that same kind of mean-spiritedness infecting a hobby to which I am fairly new, and which I have grown to love dearly. I come here for information on fountain pens, ink, and paper. Period. I don't have any desire to spend my limited fountain pen time being proselytized to, or watching others do their level best to push buttons or belittle. If FPGeeks is going to become the home for regular and repeated religious and political discussions, it's time for me to bow out for good. That's not why I'm here.

How you "solve" this without creating a bunch of restrictive rules, I don't know. (Other than to appeal to folks to please not be inflammatory and to stay on-topic.) If I could block forums or threads the way I do on Facebook, the first one that would get blocked is "The Lounge." (Unless we create a new Politics and Religion sub-forum, in which case that would be one that I'd block first.) Yeah, I can and do skip through the threads I don't want to read, except when they're entitled "Yay!?" and I can't tell what they're about. But as soon as I log in and see that most of the unread threads are about non-pen-related stuff, I'm out.

One of the things I love about this hobby is that I have met some wonderful, welcoming, awesome people. People who believe different things than I do, or have different interests. What sets us apart isn't anywhere near as important as what we have in common, and the reason we started coming here in the first place. Let's just stop talking about all this stuff and focus on why we all started coming to this forum in the first place--the pens.

And with that, I close my epic treatise, and sign off for a while.

[Potter]

As a relative newbie I did not realise that this was an issue for quite a lot of people on the Forum, I rarely go to the Lounge as my interest within this forum is with fountain pens, if I want to discuss anything else I would do it off list, or if I want to talk politics I find a suitable Forum and so I do with some of my other hobbies. However I recognise and respect the right of any member to express his/her opinion on different matters as long as it is not offensive or putting pressure on other members, I understand that not everyone has the same viewpoint. It would not concern me if there was a separate sub forum dealing with politics and religion as I would be virtually unaware of its existence.

[mhosea]

I think such a sub-forum will only serve to alienate some loyal members. I'm here to learn about fountain pens and related subject and to hear/read the valued information more experienced members may offer. I may occasionally offer opinions based on my own limited experience with pens. But for politics and religion, I will go to forums (fora?) focused on such subjects. I'm here to relax among cyber-friends with a mutual interest in fountain pens and all things writing.

Well, as I said, I personally would be looking for ways to avoid all such discussions, and based on around 22 years with it, I don't intend to go to any internet forums to discuss any of it. I'll happily discuss these matters around the lunch table if you like, but the internet is useless for resolving any substantial disagreement over religion, at least, and politics probably. So for me the pivotal question is whether adding such a forum would promote substantially more discussion on such topics, in which case it would be a bad thing for a fountain pen forum IMHO. Better that we should square off over Noodler's than religion and politics. However, my experience with having such forums on amateur astronomy sites supports the notion that it might function more as a way of compartmentalizing those discussions so that people who do not want them can more easily avoid them. In that case one might get a little bit more of them but actually be more successful in ignoring them.

Somewhere in here is the question of whether these discussions are inevitable or just a phase while the site is feeling its oats and emphasizing how it differs from FPN. If discussing religion here is a passing fad, then doing nothing would be the best thing, and that is, IMHO, inclusive of both creating forums and of bothering to oppose the continuance of such discussions when they arise. If it's here to stay, I'd like to see it moved out of the lounge. Just my 2 cents.

[Cookies]

I often use the "What's New" link and the Tapatalk "Unread" sections, neither of which give me the ability to hide certain subforums. (And in the case of the Tapatalk client, even shows a teaser of the text within the thread.)
But I'll be honest: I don't want to see these topics of discussion at all.

I started haunting FPGeeks for two reasons.

1) I wanted to learn more about fountain pens, ink, and paper.
2) I found this forum to be the most friendly, accepting, and welcoming of the scant few pen forums out there, without a whole host of rules that define everything you can and can not post.



I use the same "what's new" function and agree with everything else you've said. At the end of the day, this is a pen forum. If people want to have in depth discussions on religion or politics there are plenty of dedicated forums form them to do so. I think a PRS sub-section would just be encouraging these themes to flourish. One or two posts every now and then in The Lounge isn't going to kill anyone, but I don't think stoking the fire is the right thing at this time. So while I don't think it's a bad idea, and it's coming from a good place. I'll cast my vote in the "no thanks" column.

[Mortiana27]

Yes everyone is entitled to their own views on religion (me included) but no one has the right to ram it down the throats of those who choose to have a life unencumbered by the outdated teachings of Religion, In the educated modern world more people chose an educated view on this matter than choose the ancient outdated religious view.

NO RELIGION or POLITICS Please

Don't ruin a perfectly good form just to appease a minority

The thing about forums is that we, the user, choose which topics to follow. We choose which threads, within these topics, to read and/or to comment. Where in this simple process does the "ramming" enter the picture?

The entire point of this thread is to discuss whether or not a sub-forum is needed for such topics, and your comment quite clearly shows that YES, a sub-forum might be very helpful. All the religion and politics would be contained within a barbed-wire-fenced zone ... and the only way one could potentially be exposed to such topics is if one deliberately chose to enter the zone.

If we were reducing the forum to just two Pens and PRS ... then yes, I too might be disenfranchised by the forum at large. Being that there will still be at least 23 sub-forums filled to the brim with pen, ink, paper topics, I'm not sure how one more sub-forum in the lounge is ruining the forum.

As someone else mentioned ... clearly describing the sub-forum is key. It should be a blatant, bright, blinking sign to those NOT interested in such topics to avoid the sub-forum.

[VertOlive]

What I am saying is that the tone and level of discourse on the forum has already changed as a result of these threads.

From where I'm sitting, I have honestly not noticed any change of tone. People are always quite decent to me in this forum, and I belong to a "Love To Hate 'Em" religion. The Geeks here are the most articulate and intelligent people I've come across in a very long time!

[Laura N]

I agree with writinggrav: the tone of the site has changed just with these discussions. People are taking sides, people are getting upset. Res ipsa loquitur.

Here's the thing that I notice. The one person who strongly states a minority view about religion is the one who draws criticism. He says, in terms no stronger than the believers use, his opinion that the Christian God is imaginary. And many people consider that rude or antagonistic. When really he's just opining that people not talk about religion here.

The problem might be that if many people believe one thing, and agree with each other in that belief, than anyone stating the opposite is considered confrontational and rude, or wrong, or to be rocking the boat. Anyone who doesn't agree with that belief feels out of place. It creates a difficult atmosphere for others.

I just don't think religion (or politics) can be discussed neutrally. If you put the contentious political and religious discussions into a totally elective part of the forum, then I think that would create the greatest good for the greatest number. Those who love to discuss those things can do so. And those who don't can avoid them. Which is why I support excluding that new sub-forum from the "New Posts" feature. "New Posts" is the way many of us read the forum. If the threads are in the Lounge, as they are now, then they pop up when you hit "New Posts." Many of us just come here for the fountain pens, and stay because it's congenial. When the tone becomes overtly religious or political, we don't feel comfortable.

Like Jon, I've seen this type of elective sub-forum on my other forums, and it always works well. I fully expect that the PFS forum would be popular with many folks here. Letting everyone else avoid these topics may seem like a sacrifice now, but it is really just like turning down your music in public. Nothing is wrong with your music; it's just that not everyone wants to hear it. It's just being polite.

Finally, Manny, I love your threads. I like seeing your writing and hearing your thoughts. I hope you keep doing it.

[Flounder]

Maybe I've not been into forums long enough, I am surprised by the depth of feeling on this. I'm not religious but didn't find Jar's specific post offensive. Here's my say on the subforum question:

1. If there's going to be no specific PRS subforum, but these topics can be discussed in the Lounge, I would personally prefer a 'no proselytising' rule. I'd rather that was picked out of my lounge muesli.
2. I'd probably be okay with anything including proselytising if there's going to be a specific PRS subforum.

[85AKbN]

i don't browse by forum or sub forum. i either hit New Posts, or do a search. so it would be six of one, 1/2 dozen of the other to me. :)

[Manny]

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/fpgeeks/2014-03-13%2016.55.51-1_zpskezyxbzr.png

[ethernautrix]

My hope is that taking offense and expressing outrage don't become the kneejerk reaction that one sees all over social media.

If any group can stem that tide, it's pen nerds. Geeks, I mean. Fountain pen geeks.

[Mags]

I found the above interests and opinions well reasoned and interesting. If anyone wants to engage in a theology discussion the old fashioned letter still works too and many of us have incowrimo addresses so a letter works too. My address was posted so I don't mind the forum or the handwritten letter for sharing ideas. At least by letter I use a fountain pen to put my thoughts to paper. It may be a simple solution to post themes for letters or study of theology by forum and to let those wanting to share perspectives to use a FP of choice and write away. The exchanges will take longer but it may be a compromise. Food for thought?

[Manny]

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/fpgeeks/0314141558-1_zpsn7hbll6w.jpg

[raging.dragon]

I am amazed that someone could be offended by the title of a thread such as "I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief. (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/6210-I-was-born-into-a-religious-southern-family-A-personal-path-to-belief)"

It is clearly labeled explaining the content, points out that it involves personal belief and that it will be about religion.

I saw nothing wrong with jar's post. I didn't read through the responses, but if they got acrimonious, that's a problem with the responses not the original post.

Are there other religious and political posts that I missed?

[Mags]

Raging Dragon it's not that you missed something. It is more questions of is this a pen place or more of a fora for exchange of bigger issues of importance to pen users in a milieu of of areas from law, politics, religion, industry etc. While some topics are generally widely accepted theology is often so emotional and at times divisive that there are arguments for inclusion versus censure. In general my read of the majority is the best censure is ones own personal filters.....the bottom line is adequate caveats so pen purists avoid entering a debate without some heads up this is not a pen centric exchange ....the issue being any alienation of the dedicated fountain pen enthusiast in other arenas due to some more passionate exchanges on theological themes.

[raging.dragon]

I agree with writinggrav: the tone of the site has changed just with these discussions. People are taking sides, people are getting upset. Res ipsa loquitur.

No more so than in threads about FPN.


Here's the thing that I notice. The one person who strongly states a minority view about religion is the one who draws criticism. He says, in terms no stronger than the believers use, his opinion that the Christian God is imaginary. And many people consider that rude or antagonistic. When really he's just opining that people not talk about religion here.

The problem might be that if many people believe one thing, and agree with each other in that belief, than anyone stating the opposite is considered confrontational and rude, or wrong, or to be rocking the boat. Anyone who doesn't agree with that belief feels out of place. It creates a difficult atmosphere for others.

The poster didn't simply state he was an atheist and believed divine beings were imaginary. Instead the post was loaded with direct and indirect insults of those who disagreed, and it was the intolerant and incendary tone to which others are objecting. And it isn't only religious people who objected to this - I'm an atheist, and at least one other who complained about this post stated that he is an atheist.

[Finalist]

Being new to this site and the pen world, yet a very experienced member and moderator on a golf site it's strange to see so much religious chatter. Usually politics and religion get dropped fast especially if you want the site to grow.

[Jon Szanto]

Being new to this site and the pen world, yet a very experienced member and moderator on a golf site it's strange to see so much religious chatter. Usually politics and religion get dropped fast especially if you want the site to grow.

Part of being new here give you only a partial view of the site's dynamic: it is a very recent, and probably somewhat short-lived phenomenon (at least in terms of activity) and mostly coming off of events that played out on another pen forum.

As I suspected, the activity in the couple of religious threads has died down in the last couple of days since I made the suggestion in the OP. One of the people had decried the seemingly rampant growth in the non-pen topics and activity, and yet the last day or two has been a return to mostly all pen-centric talk. I'm fairly certain that, assuming you stick around, you'll see it become a small part of the overall spectrum of chatter.

It may very well be that there is a continuum of desires, from those who would have a pen forum with virtually NO other topics of conversation, as well as those that "come for the pens, stay for the people". I confess that I fall into the latter category; long chats about pens and related stuff simply introduces me to people, and invariably many of those people end up being personalities that I'd like to know more about, and to be able to interact with them on levels wider than mere writing activities.

But we're all different, which is why I proposed this simply as one potential solution.

[dannzeman]

I think I've found a solution that should work well.

I've created a new sub-forum in the Off Topic forum called "Politics, Religion, and Society". I've also found a plugin that will exclude all posts from that sub-forum from the 'What's New?' link in the main menu. So if you want to see what threads have new posts you'll have to go into the PRS sub-forum and look.

I'll move existing threads into the new forum but if I miss any please help me out by PMing me or flagging them and leaving a comment to move them to the proper forum.

Looking forward to hearing your feedback about this decision.

[Jon Szanto]

Dan, at first blush, that is just spectacular. The biggest drawback for allowing people freedom while keeping everyone comfortable was seeing things pop up in "What's New". If you've found a way around it, this would be a wonderful solution, and should satisfy anyone with a sense of reason and community.

Bonus points for being you. More later, after dinner (and doing taxes...).

[VertOlive]

Dan, at first blush, that is just spectacular. The biggest drawback for allowing people freedom while keeping everyone comfortable was seeing things pop up in "What's New". If you've found a way around it, this would be a wonderful solution, and should satisfy anyone with a sense of reason and community.

Bonus points for being you. More later, after dinner (and doing taxes...).

Wait, if we don't agree entirely does it mean we don't have a "sense of reason and community"?

[Jon Szanto]

Wait, if we don't agree entirely does it mean we don't have a "sense of reason and community"?
Quite poor wording and thought transmission on my part. My point was that it appears to be a solution that both allows those, who so wish, to continue posting on topics that range further from pen interests, as l as having potential for disquiet, while at the same time giving those who would prefer to not be faced with such to have the option to avoid those conversations. To me - and maybe *just* to me - a solution that benefits as many people as possible, within a community, is one that is working in the spirit of community.

I am not naive enough to think that, given a problem, a solution will always exist that satisfies each and every person. That which satisfies the most will be the best we can hope for.

[mhosea]

Quite poor wording and thought transmission on my part.

If you say so. I would say, rather, that "satisfy" was just too strong, that's all. When somebody accedes to the reason behind a compromise in the spirit of community, they may also regret the loss of one thing or another that they would have liked to have had but didn't get. In this case, they probably don't identify their feelings about the compromise as "satisfaction". So "satisfy" was a poorly chosen word. If I don't make any mistakes worse than that tomorrow, it will be a good day. :)

[pengeezer]

Semantics here(raising and waving my hand....).......

Perhaps one might think that satisfy was a bad choice for the chosen spot in Jon's sentence,but it is that very "satisfaction" between the
members that becomes the issue(and quite possibly here also). I had no problem with his choice of the word as I thought it fit adequately
the issue at hand without sounding like a politically correct "nth"-ly worded statement.

I also believe--as Jon has said--that that which "satisfies" the most will be the best we can hope for.


John

[mhosea]

You are correct, John, but it is a rare gathering of people where word choice is 100% semantics and 0% diplomacy. Actually, I only commented because I thought Jon's post was, if anything, too diplomatic, and I was surprised that it elicited a negative response. For my own purposes, I just had to sort out why that could be. That's what I came up with.

[jar]

I think I've found a solution that should work well.

I've created a new sub-forum in the Off Topic forum called "Politics, Religion, and Society". I've also found a plugin that will exclude all posts from that sub-forum from the 'What's New?' link in the main menu. So if you want to see what threads have new posts you'll have to go into the PRS sub-forum and look.

I'll move existing threads into the new forum but if I miss any please help me out by PMing me or flagging them and leaving a comment to move them to the proper forum.

Looking forward to hearing your feedback about this decision.

Looks like an elegant solution. Personally since most areas of any forum on most any subject hold little or no interest to me I never bother with the "What's new" links.

[VertOlive]

My question was a "negative response?"

As I read that post, it does seem that anyone who isn't satisfied with the solution falls outside of the category of one who has "reason and a sense of community".

It seems an insult to say something on the order of "If you disagree with this, you are not cvilized." An urbane insult, if you will.

That said, I'm glad you've come to an agreement with the moderator and we can move on to the PRS thread if we must.

[Jon Szanto]

Vert, you are taking my statement farther than I said or intended. I said it "should satisfy" people, which of course means also that some of those same rational and good-spirited folks might not agree. Such is life, but in no way is that to mean that they are lacking in any way. I hope you can take what I have said in the *spirit* with which I say it.

[mhosea]

My question was a "negative response?"

As I read that post, it does seem that anyone who isn't satisfied with the solution falls outside of the category of one who has "reason and a sense of community".

It seems an insult to say something on the order of "If you disagree with this, you are not cvilized." An urbane insult, if you will.


The phrase "reason and sense of community" refers to a willingness to take account of all viewpoints and to compromise when necessary. The phrase "should satisfy" was what threw you off into the "urbane insult" interpretation, since "satisfy" was too strong, and "should satisfy" could be misinterpreted to mean "should" as in "You should eat your vegetables." when here it means something more like "I think it will", as in "That should fix it." In the software business, such words are often uttered before being proven wrong. :)

[Flounder]

10423

[Jon Szanto]

I deliver!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEjkftp7J7I

[Sailor Kenshin]

I will add my comments to this fray, then I'm going to bow out for good.

Several years ago, I went through a very difficult, very personal journey from a life of an invested believer to one of uncertainty, and eventually, to one of a non-believer. It was a transition which was horrible, painful, and completely necessary for me to undertake. There are scars from that time in my life which may never heal fully. I lost friends, gained others, and caused a great deal of hurt to people around me as I struggled to figure out my own path in life. Since that time, I have worked very hard not to hold any bitterness or animosity in my heart. It hasn't been easy. But I've been on both sides; I can see the good intentions of each, the points-of-view from which each side is approaching a discussion.

I've done my best to stay uninvolved from the discussions around religion on this board, as I do in all of my various haunts online. A subforum might help me avoid those discussions to a certain extent, but I've found that when discussions in one small part of a forum get heated, they tend to infect the other parts of the site. (e.g., a perfectly reasonable request for a subforum ends up with a post intentionally meant to offend by using terms like "imaginary friend" to refer to others' deeply held and exceptionally personal beliefs. A move which, if I may say, I find to be an exceptionally immature and disrepectful way of disagreeing with someone, with the apparent intent of belittling and enflaming.)

I often use the "What's New" link and the Tapatalk "Unread" sections, neither of which give me the ability to hide certain subforums. (And in the case of the Tapatalk client, even shows a teaser of the text within the thread.) And, having managed forums in the past, I understand Dan's refusal to ban certain topics outright. It is a slippery slope.

But I'll be honest: I don't want to see these topics of discussion at all.

I started haunting FPGeeks for two reasons.

1) I wanted to learn more about fountain pens, ink, and paper.
2) I found this forum to be the most friendly, accepting, and welcoming of the scant few pen forums out there, without a whole host of rules that define everything you can and can not post.

Unfortunately, as my time here has gone on, I've found fewer and fewer FP-related posts, and a whole lot more of what I would consider to be "fluff." And I have found that the overall tenor of the forum has started to shift--it simply doesn't feel as friendly to me here as it once did. It seems that folks are becoming less patient with one another, and less interested in actually talking about the whole subject of the forums: fountain pens.

Frankly, I can go anywhere on the internet and find people doing their best to offend or judge one another over politics and religion. I don't need that same kind of mean-spiritedness infecting a hobby to which I am fairly new, and which I have grown to love dearly. I come here for information on fountain pens, ink, and paper. Period. I don't have any desire to spend my limited fountain pen time being proselytized to, or watching others do their level best to push buttons or belittle. If FPGeeks is going to become the home for regular and repeated religious and political discussions, it's time for me to bow out for good. That's not why I'm here.

How you "solve" this without creating a bunch of restrictive rules, I don't know. (Other than to appeal to folks to please not be inflammatory and to stay on-topic.) If I could block forums or threads the way I do on Facebook, the first one that would get blocked is "The Lounge." (Unless we create a new Politics and Religion sub-forum, in which case that would be one that I'd block first.) Yeah, I can and do skip through the threads I don't want to read, except when they're entitled "Yay!?" and I can't tell what they're about. But as soon as I log in and see that most of the unread threads are about non-pen-related stuff, I'm out.

One of the things I love about this hobby is that I have met some wonderful, welcoming, awesome people. People who believe different things than I do, or have different interests. What sets us apart isn't anywhere near as important as what we have in common, and the reason we started coming here in the first place. Let's just stop talking about all this stuff and focus on why we all started coming to this forum in the first place--the pens.

And with that, I close my epic treatise, and sign off for a while.

For what this observation is worth....it's becoming 'like that' everywhere, on every forum in which I participate. And people are noticing, and commenting. Because of the overall change, there are some forums I've left altogether.

[Tberry010]

I am not sure of the origin of the expression that says something like ' I may disagree with what you are saying but I will fight to the death to protect your right to say it', but that was prominently displayed on the back of many flak jackets once upon a time and pretty well sums up my thoughts on the subject.

The only advantage I see in a PRS sub-forum is to save time for those who for whatever reason do not want to participate in discussions on the proposed topics.

I also agree with Ethernautrix concerning our inability to discuss politics and religion, and it is time to reverse that prohibition.

Either way is fine with me.

[raging.dragon]

I deliver!

I can't get no satisfaction!

[Jon Szanto]

I deliver!

I can't get no satisfaction!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

[Flounder]

http://youtu.be/gQqD40jRGJo

[Jon Szanto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BxfpbyV-uc

[pajaro]

I avoid lots of topics now, as a lot of pens don't interest me in the least, and I recognize screen names of those whose ideas have little interest for me. So, it machts nichts.

[AndyT]

Am I right in thinking that I've missed some drama recently? Apparently so, reading through all the aforegoing, and it's heartening to see so many well reasoned and thoughtful posts.

Being English and of a traditional stamp, I take the view that religion and politics are subjects best avoided over the dinner table, but if interested parties wish to withdraw to another room and exchange opinions in a civilised manner that's all to the good. Seems to me that Dan has implemented a solution which preserves freedom of speech whilst catering for those, like myself, who consider such discussions rather infra dig. And for that I applaud him.