Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

[Paul-H]

Hi all

Dropped a bit of a clanger with this EvilBay purchase, my fault, not the sellers so no complaints.

The Sheaffer Flat Top turned out to be quite a bit smaller than I was expecting, so small that I am having trouble trying to get an exact ID of the Model, can anyone help with a Model ID for me.

Capped its 11.6cm = 4 25/64"
Posted its 14.6cm = 5 17/32"
Pen is 9.8cm = 3 32/64"

In the photos below it can be seen next to my Sheaffer Balance Oversize

I thought it might have been a Junior but seems too small going on the sizes I have found for a Junior, did they make any thing smaller than a Junior?

Thanks for any help

Paul
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l312/Paul-80/Pens/DSCF1501Copy_zps3eb865c2.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/Paul-80/media/Pens/DSCF1501Copy_zps3eb865c2.jpg.html)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l312/Paul-80/Pens/DSCF1502Copy_zpse7b9dbfa.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/Paul-80/media/Pens/DSCF1502Copy_zpse7b9dbfa.jpg.html)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l312/Paul-80/Pens/DSCF1503Copy_zps30d9f0d5.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/Paul-80/media/Pens/DSCF1503Copy_zps30d9f0d5.jpg.html)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l312/Paul-80/Pens/DSCF1504Copy_zps1d6905d5.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/Paul-80/media/Pens/DSCF1504Copy_zps1d6905d5.jpg.html)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l312/Paul-80/Pens/DSCF1505Copy_zps03a1d1ba.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/Paul-80/media/Pens/DSCF1505Copy_zps03a1d1ba.jpg.html)

[Jeph]

Over at FPNuts there is a discussion FPNuts Sheaffer Flat Top Names (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3085-sheaffer-1920s-flat-tops-different-sizes-names/)
that says that there is a short, a midget and even a pigmy. Maybe it would be best to ask over there if somebody can't help you out here.

[Paul-H]

Thanks, I will have look over there.

Paul

[kirchh]

Looks like Roger Wooten identified it for you here (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/263355-sheaffer-oversize-flat-top-or-not/?p=2958556) about a week ago.

There is no such thing as a Sheaffer flat top Junior.

--Daniel

[Paul-H]

Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

Thanks

Paul

[Paul-H]

Would the cap on this one be the correct cap that mine should have

Paul

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Sheaffer-Black-Junior-Flat-top-Fountain-pen-working-fine-point-/00/s/MzE2WDE2MDA=/z/fvcAAMXQvJVRRzMa/$T2eC16dHJI!E9qSO9)KFBRRzM,hPL!~~60_57.JPG

[david i]

Would the cap on this one be the correct cap that mine should have

Paul

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Sheaffer-Black-Junior-Flat-top-Fountain-pen-working-fine-point-/00/s/MzE2WDE2MDA=/z/fvcAAMXQvJVRRzMa/$T2eC16dHJI!E9qSO9)KFBRRzM,hPL!~~60_57.JPG

We indeed discuss this sort a fair bit over at Fountain Pen Board.

While pics are a bit limited, you likely have a proper cap.

I'm guessing your pen lacks a lever pin and does not have two little pin holes surrounding the lever slot?

The four people who know all the codes can ID many flat tops by numbers, but unlike many pens made by many makers, Sheaffer tended not to offer model names based just on size/trim, at least prior to about 1938. Too, flat-end pens last appear in concurrent-to-sale catalogues only until around 1930, though production continued or years, resulting in late-featured pens, for which we lack formal catalogue pages.

regards

david

[kirchh]

Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

Thanks

Paul

Who said it has the wrong cap?

--Daniel

[david i]

Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

Thanks

Paul

Who said it has the wrong cap?

--Daniel


Why would anyone have to have said it has the wrong cap?

-David

[david i]

Looks like Roger Wooten identified it for you here (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/263355-sheaffer-oversize-flat-top-or-not/?p=2958556) about a week ago.

There is no such thing as a Sheaffer flat top Junior.

--Daniel

Fascinating. Yet, here is a Sheaffer Junior, its top and bottom both charmingly... flat. The ends are square to the long axis of the pen. No dome. No facets. Just engagingly... flat.


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferjunior_truncated_close900a.jpg


I remain charmed how snippets of information, absent context, can fail to deliver the big picture.

Perhaps a good place to start would be for Those-Who-Know to identify which pens Sheaffer explicitly described as "flat top". Moving from there and/or exploring collector convention where it differs from original company nomenclature, insights then can be offered as to why, perhaps, Sheaffer collectors consider Sheaffer Junior "flat tops" not to exist. There's so much education to be offered to newer collectors by embracing the "why". Old crusty jaded collectors can take so much for granted...



regards

David

[Roger W.]

David;

It is not flat - it is tapered which is not the same thing at all.

Roger W.

[david i]

David;

It is not flat - it is tapered which is not the same thing at all.

Roger W.

Hi Roger,

The top of the pen is quite flat. Indeed, with the pen held in the vertical, one could put things on the cap as if it were a shelf, in a stable equilibrium, unlike balancing things on a non-flat cap top, one with a dome, bevel, etc.

It is, rather, the sides of the pen that are a bit tapered. ;)

I would not recommend then calling the pen a flat-side Sheaffer.

BTW, here is a dictionary definition of flat:

smooth and even; without marked lumps or indentations: a flat wall | trim the surface of the cake to make it completely flat.

• not sloping: the flat roof of a garage.
• having a broad level surface but little height or depth; shallow: a flat rectangular box | a flat cap.


So, since some folks have specified that the Junior is not a flat top, would you care to identify those pens with which Sheaffer itself specifically used the term "flat top"? That might be a good place to start in exploring original nomenclature vs collector jargon.

regards

David

[Roger W.]

If you want to go with what everyone calls these they are called "truncated". Again not the same as what is called a flat top.

Roger W.

[david i]

If you want to go with what everyone calls these they are called "truncated". Again not the same as what is called a flat top.

Roger W.

Hi Roger,

In this sequence, I don't seek to "go with" anything. I have opened this tangent of discussion to shed light on collector convention (such as it is) for pen terms vs observational and original terms.

I, personally, have no problem what with using "truncated" in association (though next we will have to explain, "truncated 'what'?") with the Sheaffer Junior I showed. Indeed, it would be odd for me to object given I have used that term routinely in association with that pen.

However, truncation has nothing to do with whether something is flat or not. Indeed to truncate something can result in it becoming quite flat (see Dictionary Definition of "flat", a couple posts above).

But, since it now has been said that there is no such thing as a Sheaffer Junior flat-top-- though no explanation was provided-- while I have shown that at least one Sheaffer Junior indeed has a flat top, I return again to exploration of collector jargon, since that might be of benefit to motivated new Sheaffer collectors reading this discussion.

I notice no one has yet outlined which pens Sheaffer iteself did call flat-top (or "Flat-Top" or flat-topped, etc). That would be an excellent place to start, since we then can say what Sheaffer did call a flat-top pen. Then, we can explore exactly why the Junior (which is not flat-sided, but does have a flat top) might not be a flat top.

regards

david

[Roger W.]

As flattop was never a term Sheaffer used and is just a convention and as the truncated junior is conventionally not called a flattop, I win. I only win as this discussion has no real merits even though you see it as a legitimate discussion of collector jargon. Just so you know Sheaffer does distinguish the shape of the junior as "semi-streamlined" which would not apply to any of the earlier flattops therefore, it is not a flattop but, "semi-streamlined" (Sheaffer catalog 1935) or "truncated" (collector jargon).

Roger W.

[Ernst Bitterman]

I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters ;)

[david i]

As flattop was never a term Sheaffer used and is just a convention and as the truncated junior is conventionally not called a flattop, I win. I only win as this discussion has no real merits even though you see it as a legitimate discussion of collector jargon. Just so you know Sheaffer does distinguish the shape of the junior as "semi-streamlined" which would not apply to any of the earlier flattops therefore, it is not a flattop but, "semi-streamlined" (Sheaffer catalog 1935) or "truncated" (collector jargon).

Roger W.

Heh. Roger, there is no winning. Your quote above merely has put you in the arena to play, your entry ticket so to speak ;)

And, there is charm in finding oneself drawn into a conversation, even if it has no merits, right? Ahhh, subjectivity. To know it is to love it.

Welcome to Thunder Dome, Raggedy Man...

We thus have broken through the first level.

There are no Sheaffer flat tops, according to Sheaffer.

So, if we are to advise collectors that there are not Sheaffer Junior flat tops, we can start by advising them and by keeping in mind there are no flat tops at all, per Sheaffer.

I have, of course, seen Sheaffer catalogue descriptions of the mid 1930's Junior.

So, Roger, even putting aside the Parker/Sheaffer schism in the use of "Junior", the second level in this would be to explain-- since Sheaffer offered no pens it called "Flat-Tops"-- how collectors define Sheaffer "Flat-Top".

regards

david

[Roger W.]

I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters ;)

While it is commonly called truncated I wouldn't have a problem with streamlined flat-top though, it is a carry over from another brand. We do have a huge problem with the Parker carryover in general due to the fact that they actually had the gall to call their short duofold "junior" which is why so many people call the SC Sheaffer models "juniors". Sheaffer actually called particular other pens juniors and short flattops aren't them.

Roger W.

[Roger W.]

David;

A flat top also has flat sides. Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" that would be much clearer to aliens intercepting our transmissions.

Roger W.

[david i]

I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters ;)

While it is commonly called truncated I wouldn't have a problem with streamlined flat-top though, it is a carry over from another brand. We do have a huge problem with the Parker carryover in general due to the fact that they actually had the gall to call their short duofold "junior" which is why so many people call the SC Sheaffer models "juniors". Sheaffer actually called particular other pens juniors and short flattops aren't them.

Roger W.

Hey, Parker was there first with the term.

Sheaffer just screwed with it... ;)

-d

[david i]

David;

A flat top also has flat sides. Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" that would be much clearer to aliens intercepting our transmissions.

Roger W.

I would modify your statement to: Some "flat top" pens have flat sides.

Indeed, a top largely is independent from a side, when it comes to angles.

Perhaps we can call them just Sheaffer Cylinders, as the flat side seems to be more defining than the literal flat top (which the Junior does have). But, no, that's certainly not consistent with long standing collector convention, which we now know is not original Sheaffer nomenclature.

You do more with early Sheaffers than I do, but iirc, ironically not all the cylindrical 1912-1930 pens have flat ends. Don't some of the early pens have a bit of a dome to the top? Are these non flat-topped Flat-Tops?

And isn't there a bit of slope to the butt end even of the cylinder-era pens?

But, tangents aside, we do now break through to level 2:


Collectors tend to call "Flat Top" the minimal-to-no-taper pens shaped like those seen in 1920's catalogues that have nice square ends (save for the domey early ones, which still tend to be lumped with the flat tops).


Even though the Junior from the mid 1930's has as flat a top as the earlier style pens, because the sides are more streamlined than what Sheaffer collectors (Sheaffer itself somewhat out of the picture now for this chat) typically call flat-tops, collectors tend not to consider it a flat-top pen.


As to "truncated". That term appears with the mid 1930's Sheaffer Juniors such as I showed, as the pens looked like chopped Sheaffer Balances (the streamlined cigar-ish pens that dominated Sheaffer's 1930s). Truncated Balance is not an unreasonable description for the early Sheaffer Juinor, especially as the Junior gained the Balance shape not much later. The pen does evoke a bit the streamlining of Duofold.

regards

d

[gweddig]

Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" ...
Roger W.

Roger, should we point our browsers to www.sheafferflatendedcylindricals.com (http://www.sheafferflattops.com/) from now on? ;-)

(great topic, unfortunately I didn't have anything of substance to add)

[Paul-H]

Thanks for all the input on the, most of it has been most helpful.

Putting my thanks in before the thread gets locked.

So my pen turned out to me a 3-25SC or Short with Clip, still not sure if the cap is correct for this pen though as I have now seen quite a few 3-25SC pens with the same cap fitted and quite a few with a different cap fitted, some have a gap between the clip and the top and some don't. Could it be that Sheaffer actually fitted both caps rather than one being wrong!

Thanks again

Paul

[Roger W.]

Paul;

I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

Why on earth would this thread get locked? Marginally lively debate about what constitutes a flattop?

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Could it be that Sheaffer actually fitted both caps rather than one being wrong!


Who said one of the caps was wrong?

--Daniel

[david i]

Could it be that Sheaffer actually fitted both caps rather than one being wrong!


Who said one of the caps was wrong?

--Daniel

Why did anyone have to say one of the caps was wrong?

-David

[david i]

Hi all

SNIP

I thought it might have been a Junior but seems too small going on the sizes I have found for a Junior, did they make any thing smaller than a Junior?

Thanks for any help

Paul



To expand on the notion of Junior, since Roger took a swipe at beloved Parker, different companies (or same company at different times) mapped the word differently onto product line.

For Parker's original Duofold, Junior referenced a size/model within a series. Junior did not suggest low-tier. Perhaps if Dad was a Senior, then his son was a Junior ;)

For Parker's Vacumatic, Junior began to reference a price point/feature set instead of just a size within a same-cachet family. Indeed while Vacumatic was a high line pen for Parker, the Vacumatic Junior referenced a lower tier Vacumatic, with less luxury-oriented nib and trim elements. But, even a a Vacumatic Junior was a higher tier (as a lower tier Vac) pen than other lower-tier Parker pen families of the time, such as Parkette and Challenger. One could have a Vacumatic Junior in larger size than some of the non-Junior Vacumatics of the time, showing that the word had come to indicate tier more than just a given size.

For Sheaffer during the 1930's, Junior also referenced a market niche, a price point, a pen tier rather than a size. As with Parker's Vacumatic from same era, one could find pens smaller than the Sheaffer Junior, shorter at least. The Sheaffer Balance Petite was shorter. Suspect a the short slender flat-end pen (The Sheaffer Cylindrical!) also was shorter at least. Some might have been made as late as the Junior. A much earlier 1920's pen the Pigmy was frankly tiny by comparison.

regards

David

[david i]

Paul;

I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

Why on earth would this thread get locked? Marginally lively debate about what constitutes a flattop?

Roger W.

If this thread is locked, how did you post your question about it being locked? ;)

regards

-d

[Paul-H]

Magic ;)

[david i]

Perhaps it is time I should offer in this forum a general introduction to collecting Sheaffer fountain pens. Figure minimal commentary and perhaps 5-6 trays of pens, recognizing dates won't be exact on trays based on rough generations, covering key pens, just ten pens shown per category.

Early: Flat-Top era: 1908-12 to 1930+

1930's: Balance era: Balance/Crest/Sub-brands

1940s: Triumph: War Years/Post-War Celluloid/ Introduction of Forticel/ Touchdown

1950s: TM TD/ Snorkel/ Cartridge Pens

1960's: PFM/Imperial

1970's-Current: Imperial/Targa/Modern Crest/Legacy

----------

But, however will I find pens to illustrate the categories?

Oh, wait, never mind...


http://vacumania.com/essaypics/sheaffer-introduction_600a.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

Paul;

I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

Why on earth would this thread get locked? Marginally lively debate about what constitutes a flattop?

Roger W.

Thanks for shining a light on this, Roger. As we see in this thread, there's so much misinformation out there, and so little time to address it all.

--Daniel

[david i]

Paul;

I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

Why on earth would this thread get locked? Marginally lively debate about what constitutes a flattop?

Roger W.

Thanks for shining a light on this, Roger. As we see in this thread, there's so much misinformation out there, and so little time to address it all.

--Daniel

Yes, good thing some of us share the information.

Of note, Why did anyone have to have said one of the caps was wrong?

-David

[kirchh]

I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters ;)

Your caution is understandable! Though I will observe that Sheaffer did call their cylindrical instruments "flat tops" (as was then common parlance in the trade) once they needed distinguishing from the tapered models, and they did not apply that term to the later "semi-Balance" Junior as far as I am aware.; it's apparent that model was considered a member of the newer tapered line, not the old flat top line.

I appreciate your effort to take care to avoid promulgating erroneous information about nomenclature; there's plenty of that going around already, and it's not good for the hobby to add yet more.

--Daniel

[david i]

Of note, Why did anyone have to have said one of the caps was wrong?

Just sayin'...

-David

[kirchh]

Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" ...
Roger W.

Roger, should we point our browsers to www.sheafferflatendedcylindricals.com (http://www.sheafferflattops.com/) from now on? ;-)

(great topic, unfortunately I didn't have anything of substance to add)

And your self-awareness in that regard is all too rare, so I tip my hat to you. Often others are not nearly so wise!

--Daniel

[david i]

Of note, Why did anyone have to have said one of the caps was wrong?

Just sayin'...

-David

[kirchh]

It is not flat - it is tapered which is not the same thing at all.


Quite so -- the Junior model first appeared in that semi-Balance instrument; the earlier pens Sheaffer and the trade called flat tops did not include a Junior model, as you of course are aware. As Sheaffer has a long history of implicitly denigrating competitors' products using subtle (and not-so-subtle) naming and design cues, I wonder if this was an instance of that technique at work.

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Paul -

To be clear -- W. A. Sheaffer, and pen dealers, used the term "flat top" for the style of pen you show in your post; it's not a fresh creation by modern collectors, contrary to uninformed claims one may encounter. And, as I stated, there is no Sheaffer flat top Junior model, as Sheaffer applied that designation. So the reality is not particularly fascinating, but it's important nonetheless. Beware the misinformation...

--Daniel

[david i]

Of note, Why did anyone have to have said one of the caps was wrong?

Just sayin'...

-David

[david i]

Paul -

To be clear -- W. A. Sheaffer, and pen dealers, used the term "flat top" for the style of pen you show in your post; it's not a fresh creation by modern collectors, contrary to uninformed claims one may encounter. And, as I stated, there is no Sheaffer flat top Junior model, as Sheaffer applied that designation. So the reality is not particularly fascinating, but it's important nonetheless. Beware the misinformation...

--Daniel

Entertaining to see Daniel's take on Roger's perspective.

For those of you new to Sheaffer collecting, note that while no one knows everything, Roger likely is the best informed collector on the planet regarding early Sheaffers.

Regards

David

[kirchh]

I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters ;)

While it is commonly called truncated I wouldn't have a problem with streamlined flat-top though, it is a carry over from another brand. We do have a huge problem with the Parker carryover in general due to the fact that they actually had the gall to call their short duofold "junior" which is why so many people call the SC Sheaffer models "juniors". Sheaffer actually called particular other pens juniors and short flattops aren't them.

Roger W.

Terminological crossover is a problem -- witness the generic use of "Flighter" and "Signet" for pens of brands other than Parker. This cripples the expressive power of the terminology by broadening it excessively (and misleadingly).

--Daniel

[david i]

Mapping of terminology from one pen/series/brand to others offers both advantages and disadvantages to the structure of collecting. Terminology crossover thus offers good and bad. Best not to be too concrete about it.

-david

[kirchh]

An article I wrote (http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Sheaffer_Balance/Featherweight_vs_Heavyweight.pdf) and shared a while back about Sheaffer's defense of its Balance design patent has some examples of W. A. Sheaffer's use of the term "flat tops" to refer to pens we call flat tops.

--Daniel

[david i]

I'm glad we provoked some data. That's usually how it has to happen when some play...

-David

[kirchh]

David;

A flat top also has flat sides. Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" that would be much clearer to aliens intercepting our transmissions.

Roger W.

An appropriate observation, in particular in view of certain other discussions. NPD has challenges, one of them being grappling with labeling, and retrospective designations complicate things further. Sometimes it takes some study to discern things accurately.

Sheaffer did a reasonable job overall with new product names, I think, but there were some interesting wrinkles along the way at times.

--Daniel

[david i]

Actually, a flat top is independent of shape of sides.

Just sayin'...

-David

[kirchh]

Paul -

I'll also observe that the gripping section on your pen is of an earlier style that is consistent with the nib.

--Daniel

[david i]

Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

Thanks

Paul

Who said it has the wrong cap?

--Daniel

Why would anyone have to have said it has the wrong cap?

-David

[david i]

A useful image regarding the use of industry/hobby jargon vs actual geometry regarding flat tops.

Note how the lack of square, "flat" sides or of overall cylindrical shape (were these 3-D images) do not impact the flatness of the top.



http://vacumania.com/penteech2/flattop_sketchA.jpg

regards

david

[kirchh]

Sheaffer's apparent penchant for implicitly demeaning their competitors' products by positioning lower-line items as parallels in some way with others' higher-end products might also be in evidence with the shaping -- and not only the naming -- of the semi-Balance Junior. That model, one of Sheaffer's least expensive, was only "semi-" -- a "semi-Balance", merely "semi-streamlined". But its top (and bottom) were tapered in a manner generally similar to the top and bottom of the "Streamlined" top-of-the-line Parker flagship, the Parker Duofold. The similarity in the tapered but truncated shape of the tops of those two makers' models might have served to pull down the prestige and modernity of the Duofold, or so Sheaffer might have hoped.

--Daniel

[david i]

Note that what we call semi-streamlining was a big thing in the 1930's, no doubt in part to escape Sheaffer's litigious tendencies. The Gold Bond Hercules and (get this, 10 years before Sheaffer used the name) Triumph were semi-streamlined in 1930, mimicking Parker. One can hypothesize a range of intentions for Sheaffer, which need not be mutually exclusive, but it certainly is possible that with the introduction of Sheaffer Junior in the early-mid 1930's, that Sheaffer did not wish to use the word/concept "Junior" with its lofty Balance line, thus offering what appears to be a chopped Balance, permitting separation from Balance, while going with the hot streamlining trend. By mid-later 1936, Junior of course would be incorporated in the Balance line. Too bad, really.

Note, do see PENnant's next issue (free with annual membership to Pen Collectors of America) for a defining article about Gold Bond pens from 1930, including the Triumph)

As to Duofold by Parker, it is worth noting that with what might be Sheaffer Junior's peak appearance in company info (a hefty catalogue), Duofold already was old news, and Sheaffer Junior had little in common with Parker's ascendant Vacumatic. It is likely, to degree Sheaffer's blue generally was an "earlier" color, that Junior appeared before the 1935 catalogue showing. Perhaps someone has that info? Will it be volunteered, hidden, or provoked? Heh. It is known that Sheaffer was a bit insecure about Parker, going to lengths including publishing pamphlets noting why Balance was better than sacless pens (suggestive of Vac) even while racing to play catch up to introduce its own sacless pens.

Parker did a much more comprehensive stratification of niche/cachet by series within the brand than did Sheaffer. Sheaffer by the mid 1930's had a wide range of Balance pens covering prices at least $3.50-3.75 or so right up to $20+ for gold appointed pens, perhaps up to $80 if solid gold Masterpiece actually preceded catalogue appearances (hey, whaddoEyeknow? I just dabble at Sheaffer, though I probably sell more old Sheaffers than anyone), relegating the low end to Junior and to a an evolving range of sub-brand pens that largely hid their Sheaffer connection. Parker offered several distinct families of pens representing tiers/price-point/cachet, and pretty well correlating to position in company catalogues, in which all the series were represented (unlike Sheaffer with its low price sub-brands). Parker in 1935 offered Vacumatic from $5-10, Challenger Family pens below that, and Parkette Family pens priced below Challenger. Balance was rather more all over the place.

-d

[david i]

So, no one wants to suggest the tops of these shapes are not flat?



http://vacumania.com/penteech2/flattop_sketchA.jpg

regards

david

[kirchh]

The Sheaffer Juniors are an interesting item, with their tapered tops; Sheaffer used a similar design for their secondary line Vacuum-Fil Junior model, though the top of that pen, in addition to being tapered, also had a bevel and a squat cone. A later wartime WASP uses the simpler form of the earlier Sheaffer Junior, with a tapered and truncated top. Some other makers' pens had more elaborate tops during the '30s; some versions of the Wahl-Eversharp Coronet had a top that displayed an Art Deco flair that evoked the top of the Chrysler Building, with contrasting triangular inlays and staggered shapes; the Coronet bore one of the most distinctive and recognizable tops of any pen model, I would say.

Sheaffer was not above imitation itself, of course; it's earliest metal mechanical pencils had a top that mimicked the top of the then-dominant Eversharp pencil; the top had a flare edged in a decorative design quite similar to that of the top of the Eversharp item. Sheaffer later changed the pencil top to a simpler inverted bell shape devoid of ornamentation.

Parker appears to have been experimenting with all sorts of shapes when streamlining became the rage; along with variations of the tapered top, more radical designs were also looked at. And speaking of tops, the Duofold book shows a prototype pen with a cap having a squat, bulging barrel-shaped top edged with a gold band, though the date of this example is unknown.

--Daniel

[david i]

Do check out PENnant Magazine, free with subscription to Pen Collectors of America.

Since, we speak of beveled-end Sheaffer sub-brands, I note I had the charm last year to be the first person to bother doing a comprehensive article on the bevel-top Sheaffer sub-brand pens done in the Celluloid pattern known to collectors as Screaming Souls in Purgatory. They are fun pens. I'm impressed how many Sheaffer people seem to ignore them. Amazing how just dabbling can lead to articles.

Considering I'm just a wee Hack Amateur Newbie, I remain amazed no one else ever bothered to review these Sheaffer-made Vacuum, WASP Vacuum-Fil, and WASP Clipper pens.

We can talk about the Sheaffer Canadian Balance-era pens another time, though that article, what with being two years old already shows up in PCA's two-year-lag PENnant Archive

https://www.pencollectorsofamerica.com/index.php/library/pennant-archive/cat_view/78-pennant-archive?limit=20&limitstart=0&order=date&dir=DESC

Then we have the off-catalogue Balance cap-bands. Good thing I bought an interesting document (a non-Sheaffer jeweler's catalogue) featuring those pens. Backchannel charm. Plenty in the mag to lend context to those pens. And, I had the added charm of keeping that paper out of the hands of the hoarders. ;)

With Fountain Pen Board (FPnuts) the place to focus on old pens, we have had some lengthy chats about Sheaffer Sub-Brands. Here is one about the Screamers.

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/946-sheaffer-wasp-screamer-mania-yeah-really/

Here be a pretty comprehesive Sheaffer (and non-Scheaffer) Screamer collection. Note how some are single-bevel, some double


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferwasp_screamer_finalcoll900a.jpg

regards

david

[david i]

I still haven't figured out how-- given my casual interest in Sheaffer compared to Parker-- i managed to end up with a better collection of off-catalogue cap-band Sheaffer Balances than even the Very Serious Sheaffer dudes. But, I don't complain about Lady Fortune. Those mini-collections (or would that be focused-collections) are the charm.

-d

[david i]

Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

Thanks

Paul

Who said it has the wrong cap?

--Daniel

Why would anyone have to have said it has the wrong cap?

Crickets...?

-d

[kirchh]

Other makers also produced pens with interesting tops. Waterman's "checkbook" pen had a flared top; their earlier pens with color-coded nib styles had caps with a colored band at the top; and a legendary rare Waterman model incorporated a Stanhope (tiny photographic slide) in the top of the cap showing an image of the Waterman headquarters in New York City (here's an example (http://www.vintagepens.com/morepics.php?id=9492&pics=9) in David Nishimura's catalog). Parker had its "turban top" models, which had tops with decorative roping designs and other embellishments.

--Daniel

[david i]

Ah, charming old news, those funny pen cap top shapes.

Do check out next issue of PENnnant. I took another cover and touch on just this subject.

Here are some cap mutations away from the cylindrical...

http://vacumania.com/paul/MonkeyWard_part2_image7_FuturepensSharp_600small.j pg

regards

david

[david i]

Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

Thanks

Paul

Who said it has the wrong cap?

--Daniel

Why would anyone have to have said it has the wrong cap?

Crickets...?

-d

[Jon Szanto]

Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

Thanks

Paul

Who said it has the wrong cap?

--Daniel

Why would anyone have to have said it has the wrong cap?

Crickets...?

-d

David, with all due respect, these repeated identical posts border on spam. If it is a technical glitch, I might understand. Otherwise, I think you made your point.

I might be jet-lagged from a quick turn-around trip to NYC, but it seemed worth noting. I enjoy the information on the pens, as always, but...

[david i]

David, with all due respect, these repeated identical posts border on spam. If it is a technical glitch, I might understand. Otherwise, I think you made your point.

I might be jet-lagged from a quick turn-around trip to NYC, but it seemed worth noting. I enjoy the information on the pens, as always, but...

Hi Jon,

Not spam. Although, I shall have to ponder what point it was that I have (perhaps successfully) made ;)

I merely am well aware that at least one fellow here appreciates questions the illustrate points. Emphasis lends power. That he has not answered the question indeed is telling.

But, yes, perhaps by not answering he has conceded the point, whatever the point is. ;)

regards

David

[Paul-H]

Paul;

I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

Roger W.

Thanks.

So just for my own education so I don't make the same mistake next time what does the cap and barrel that should go with the 3-25 nib look like. Or how is it different from the two supplied with my nib.

Thanks again for all the input on this subject it been most helpful.

Paul

[kirchh]

Thanks again for all the input on this subject it been most helpful.

Paul

You're most welcome. Sheaffers are interesting!

--Daniel

[david i]

Thanks.

So just for my own education so I don't make the same mistake next time what does the cap and barrel that should go with the 3-25 nib look like. Or how is it different from the two supplied with my nib.

Thanks again for all the input on this subject it been most helpful.

Paul



I'd say, "You're Welcome", but I believe we-who-play-with-these have a bit more to offer...

Paul, most flat-tops have the straight clip with full ball, the clip starting by top of cap. That was what was shown in the 1920's catalogues.

Late flat-tops appear, items that have post-1930-catalogue features. One might expect late flat-tops to have the lower set "hump" clip, still round clip ball, then later still the flat-ball clip, which for Balance appeared iirc, during 1934 (? Early 1935?). Per prior claim by Roger, per chat he had iirc with a Sheaffer employee (possibly archivist, Tom something or other), the pinned lever (with holes on either side of lever) gave way to internal ring sometime in late 1930, though I have no hard evidence on hand for that. So one might expect a flat-end pen created after that to have an internal lever ring without pin holes, still with round ball humped clip until the flat-ball clip appeared. I'd have to review my dates though, as this stuff is a tangential interest for me.

I have some recollection of mention of two tone nibs appearing starting 1932, the double color effect afflicting Lifetime nibs, briefly (?) 5-30 nibs in USA, those giving way to two tone Feather Touch-5 (FT5) nibs, and in minority circumstances seeing the appearance of FT-7 and FT-8 nibs (Fountain Pen Board has a good discussion of those). The 3-25 nib yielded to the monotone #3 nib. I have recollection of seeing mention of a #3 nib, perhaps in a desk pen, prior to the 1934 appearance of the flat-ball clip in Balance at least (recall, the public lacks much or any period Sheaffer literature on post 1930 Flat-Top, though the 1947 Workbook alludes to 'em retrospectively). Without pulling more papers and pens I cannot tell you exactly when between presumably 1932 and 1934 the three nib switches happened, but they should be before the flat-ball clip appeared... assuming clip evolution for the post-catalogue flat-end pens paralleled that of Balance.

As a wee dabbler I might expect a humped clip or of course the earlier catalogued straight clip not flat-ball clip for pen still with 3-25 nib, though the barrel-- if my recollection of Roger's claim about the internal lever ring timing and if his source ws reliable--could be I suppose either lever-pin or internal ring.

Perhaps someone who actually follows this sort seriously will have something to offer...

Just fer funnn...

Straight Clip on a flat-end Lifetime OS Balance

http://vacumania.com/websitesalespics/pen3091sm.jpg

In same scale a late flat-top in Jade Celluloid. Notice the flat-ball clip. Though in the 1920's the single cap-band had given way to double cap-band, these late pens have single cap-band again.

http://vacumania.com/websitesalespics/pen3199sm.jpg


Here is an off-catalogue slender Coral (orange, for Sheaffer, not mottled magenta/orange) flat-top Sheaffer, with the presumably intermediate era humped clip, lower set than the straight clip, with a hump in it, with still full clip ball. This pen still has a lever pin. It is a short slender pen, not so common for several reasons. It again is to scale with the other pens here.

http://vacumania.com/websitesalespics/pen3253sm.jpg

One of the charms of having one of the largest photo archives extent is having access to images. Selling oodles of Sheaffers around the world doesn't hurt access to pens to shoot.

If you would like to review a huge Sheaffer info cache, done a bit differently from the usual online profile thing, do check out my Sold Pens Archive. Many of the pens have extensive descriptions. With the pens going back ten years, some of the descriptions might even be correct.

Sold Pen Sheaffer Archive at Vacumania (http://www.vacumania.com/websitesales/soldpenssheaffer.htm)

Oops, almost forgot. Since this discussion started with an invocation of Junior, here is a good n' proper Sheaffer Junior, from before the pen became a Balance (~ 1936). One almost can see the tips of the Balance extending from the amputation sites. Also to scale

http://vacumania.com/websitesalespics/pen2367sm.jpg
regards

David

[david i]

[QUOTE=Roger W.;76391]Paul;

SNIP

Thanks.

So just for my own education so I don't make the same mistake next time what does the cap and barrel that should go with the 3-25 nib look like. Or how is it different from the two supplied with my nib.
SNIP

Paul

Or, to specify, a 3-25 nib on flat-top can appear with a single cap-band "straight clip" (assuming 3-25 pens appeared before the single band gave way to double band in the 1920's. Roger would know), a double cap-band "straight" clip, or a 1930+ humped (lower set, still round ball) clip, either with pinned or ringed lever. One might expect the #3 nib by time the flat-ball clip appeared.

That said, I'm not solid with the notion that nib evolution in flat-tops paralleled Balance, but I also lack information enough to insist it didn't.

regards

david

[kirchh]

It is little appreciated that though the top of the semi-Balance Sheaffer Junior is tapered compared to a Sheaffer flat top -- thus the appellations "semi-Balance" and "semi-streamlined" -- the opposite end (the barrel bottom) is not. It's actually about the same shape as the bottom of the flat top models.

--Daniel

[david i]

Flat bottoms, baby. Flat top too, by geometry.

-d

[Roger W.]

Or, to specify, a 3-25 nib on flat-top can appear with a single cap-band "straight clip" (assuming 3-25 pens appeared before the single band gave way to double band in the 1920's. Roger would know), a double cap-band "straight" clip, or a 1930+ humped (lower set, still round ball) clip, either with pinned or ringed lever. One might expect the #3 nib by time the flat-ball clip appeared.

That said, I'm not solid with the notion that nib evolution in flat-tops paralleled Balance, but I also lack information enough to insist it didn't.

regards

david

David;

This is where it gets tedious with you. You are so busy chasing esoterica that you haven't learned the basics of the standard lines. 3-25's never had double bands as that was a specific hallmark to the introduction of 5-30's and 7-30's which gave them something that even white dots did not have but, would soon get. I'm not saying Sheaffer made it easy as they went to standardize sizes with the thinner diameter corals circa 1930 (though I have a circa 1930 black 3-25 in the wider diameter - no mistake, it has a 3-25SC sticker). Enough late flattops are found with "3" nibs to suggest that they did change to the nibs being made at the time and the guarantee had been done away with anyway so a "3-25" nib would not refer to anything anyway. I have larger flattops with feathertouch 5 nibs keeping with the age of the cap as well so the evolution of nibs is well established IMHO.

Roger W.

[david i]

Glad I could provoke movement beyond "You're welcome". Heh.


Too, often ill appreciated is that Sheaffer had a history of issuing pens with transitional features, pens with Balance or Balance-related caps, but with flat butts. The 1930-ish (and perhaps later) transitional types are popular with Sheaffer collectors.


http://vacumania.com/websitesalespics/pen1054shfhalfbalDSC02295sm.jpg

One might think those who more than dabble in these would have some images to offer, but I'm happy to serve.



regards

David

[david i]

David;

This is where it gets tedious with you. You are so busy chasing esoterica that you haven't learned the basics of the standard lines. 3-25's never had double bands as that was a specific hallmark to the introduction of 5-30's and 7-30's which gave them something that even white dots did not have but, would soon get. I'm not saying Sheaffer made it easy as they went to standardize sizes with the thinner diameter corals circa 1930 (though I have a circa 1930 black 3-25 in the wider diameter - no mistake, it has a 3-25SC sticker). Enough late flattops are found with "3" nibs to suggest that they did change to the nibs being made at the time and the guarantee had been done away with anyway so a "3-25" nib would not refer to anything anyway. I have larger flattops with feathertouch 5 nibs keeping with the age of the cap as well so the evolution of nibs is well established IMHO.

Roger W.

Roger, I love you like a psychotic pen collector... oooh, I mean "like a brother" ;)

However, "tedious" is highly subjective. To 90% of the pen collecting community, any article you've ever written, any I've written, any collecting article written by anyone in this chat, risks (dare we say embraces) tediousness. The reason a handful of people play with the details is that only a relative handful even care, and only a sub-portion of that group bothers to engage in public analysis. You really need to acknowledge that you have come over to the dark side. Hell, you probably started on the dark side. If you have doubts about tedious tendencies, let's do poll the hobby to see how many people amongst the 80,000+ pen dudes and dudettes have learned the flat-top codes.

I am cheerfully amused that shortly after I invoke you (oooOOOooohhhh, the Magic Flat-Top, wearing a cowboy hat) for your interest and familiarity with these, dwarfing of course my own, making it even more tragic I must step up to the plate to provide actual images and information here, you chime in noting essentially that you have more interest and familiarity with these than do I. Go figure ;)

It is good that you clarify that the 3-25 pens never appeared with double bands, given that I had actually raised that concern.

I agree that plenty late flat-end pens appear with #3 nib such that that expected arrangement is... as expected. But, the question is do enough flat-ball-clip pens turn up with 3-25 nibs to make us wonder. Clearly you don't wonder, and that has some power. But, I've seen odd pens here and there, so I keep a somewhat open mind. I do get that nib switches happen, though one might expect later nibs in earlier pens more often to be the end result.

But, since you bring it up, since Canada appears to have offered two tone 5-30 nibs for years later, do you know if Canada had/maintained whatever '"5-30" referred to'?

regards

David

[mhosea]

I love this thread.

[david i]

I love this thread.

A taste of the old days in internet pen collecting ;)

-d

[Roger W.]

David;

Isn't Canada the king of inconsistency - or actually lateness. Certainly when they were making 5-30's they indeed were making a meaningless nib but, perhaps Sheaffer didn't bother sending them up new dies for a while. Didn't you do on article on their quirkiness?

Roger W.

[david i]

David;

Isn't Canada the king of inconsistency - or actually lateness. Certainly when they were making 5-30's they indeed were making a meaningless nib but, perhaps Sheaffer didn't bother sending them up new dies for a while. Didn't you do on article on their quirkiness?

Roger W.

Hey, just because I have tons of Canadian Sheaffer Balances and related pens, just because I wrote-- even what with just being a hack amateur newbie--what so far is the defining article about them for PENnant (remember folks, free PENnant and downloadable PENnant, Penworld, and vintage pen company catalogues with the Pen Collectors of America membership), doesn't mean I have a great deal of hard company info. Was Sheaffer Canada inconsistent, or was it consistently different in some respects from Sheaffer USA? I'd bet the latter. Late features relative to the USA certainly appear. Was the nib meaningless... there? Do you have information that what made the numbers become meaningless in the USA also applied there? If so, in any case, Sheaffer has seen features evolve regarding significance. Does the White Dot indicate today what it indicated in 1925? Did Sheaffer Canada get nib dies from the USA? Sheaffer nibs after all have differences beyond just being marked for Canada.

regards

-d

[kirchh]

Another neat pen top is that of the pens like the Vacumatic Secretary; these have a sphere top.

--Daniel

[david i]

Golly, a round top flat top.

This is too easy

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/diamondpointbaseball50per.jpg


-d

[david i]

So, I guess it's pretty clear that no one had to have told him the cap was wrong...

Go figure.

-d

[david i]

...

[kirchh]

One of the Ink-D-Cator Mickey Mouse pens had a top shaped like Mickey's head!

Rat top.

Great stuff.

--Daniel

[david i]

Does Mickey have a flat top?

Weird that the Sheaffer Junior does.

Awesomeness...

-David

[david i]

One of the fun things about ebay is being a hack amateur newbie Sheaffer dabbler beating Serious Sheaffer Collectors for late Jade Oversized Balance pens with superb color in nearmint condition, and grabbing at bargain price. Like winning a video game...

The rush is priceless...

-d

[kirchh]

Some Roy Rogers pens have a top shaped like Roy's head, complete with cowboy hat. Hat top.

--Daniel

[david i]

One of the sad things in Sheafferdom is when Serious Sheaffer Collectors in a month hunting ebay can find only folding clothes hangers.

I'm happy to have had better luck.

-d

[kirchh]

There's a neat variant of the Waterman Thorobred pen that has a barrel-shaped top with a watch in it! Probably not a big seller.

--Daniel

[david i]

Even better is the rare black-spot Sheaffer Balance.

-d

[david i]

Oversized, no less, in gray/red. Another ebay bargain. Better than a clothes hanger.

-d

[kirchh]

I recently saw an advertising pencil that had a top shaped like a miniature barrel. A barrel-shaped top! I wonder if a pulley maker ever commissioned a pencil like that. Come to think of it, the bottom of a Dunn has sort of a pulley shape. Distinctive.

--Daniel

[david i]

I am charmed still be the hobby wrestle with not calling flat-topped Sheaffer Juniors "flat top".

Similar to how a "good" pen is bad, in hobby jargon.

-d

[david i]

Since few are offering up images of pens, here is an interesting late Sheaffer flat-top cap.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffer_flattop_weird_clipANDring900a.jpg

regards

-david

[david i]

And, for those who like vintage pen eye candy, here is a world-class spread of Sheaffer flat-tops, showing it is possible even for a hack amateur newbie like me to find some good stuff. Ask Roger how many folks have oversized metal flat-tops from the early Sheaffer era.


Here is a thread over at FPB for which this shot was just the opening salvo

FPB Sheaffer Flat Top Eye Candy, started by David Isaacson (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1547-sheaffer-flat-top-eye-candy-1920s-pens/)


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferflattop_boxspread1000a.jpg



regards

d

[kirchh]

I used to have a bad Good Service pen. Okay pen. Semi-streamlined top, I think.

Paul, what's the feed look like on your flat top Sheaffer 3-25SC? Looks like the flat-bottomed variety, but just to be sure.

--Daniel

[david i]

What, no pictures?

Selfish...

-d

[Roger W.]

And, for those who like vintage pen eye candy, here is a world-class spread of Sheaffer flat-tops, showing it is possible even for a hack amateur newbie like me to find some good stuff. Ask Roger how many folks have oversized metal flat-tops from the early Sheaffer era.


Here is a thread over at FPB for which this shot was just the opening salvo

FPB Sheaffer Flat Top Eye Candy, started by David Isaacson (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1547-sheaffer-flat-top-eye-candy-1920s-pens/)


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferflattop_boxspread1000a.jpg



regards

d

The metal one is very rare in any condition so that bit of brassing is no big deal.

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Here (http://www.richardspens.com/?prof=coronet) and here (http://www.vintagepens.com/Coronet.shtml) are profiles of the aforementioned Wahl-Eversharp Coronet with some nice pictures showing the very Art Deco ornamentation at the top of the cap; the band of inset triangles at the top is one of the most recognizable details of any vintage pen, I'd have to say. Maybe not everyone's idea of beauty, but certainly distinctive!

--Daniel

[kirchh]

The topic of the Sheaffer Junior is an interesting one, and insufficiently explored. It probably deserves a focused treatment at some point.

Prince's Protean fountain pen of the early 1850s had a tapered top, and the barrel tapered somewhat as well, though not enough to serve as prior art when determining the novelty of Sheaffer's balanced pen design.

--Daniel

[david i]

What, no pictures?

Selfish...

-d

[kirchh]

Here's one profile of the Dunn pen (http://www.vintagepens.com/Dunn.shtml), with its distinctive red pulley roller-shaped barrel bottom, and here's another (http://www.richardspens.com/?prof=dunn). I can't recall a pen model with a pulley roller-shaped top, but I might just not have noticed one.

--Daniel
Edited to correct link.

[david i]

No pics?

Go figure...

-d

[kirchh]

I recall a Kraker that had an unusual top, but I might be thinking of another brand -- it's been a while since I happened across it. Krakers and their progeny are another interesting story; just the variety of clips that show up makes for an engaging subject of consideration.

--Daniel

[david i]

What, no photos?

Happily Vacumania took photos of the largest extent Kraker collection.

Must love it...

-d

[david i]

Too, I'm glad all agree no one *had* to have told him he has a wrong cap.

-d

[kirchh]

Krakers might hold the distinction as a brand to be found with two completely different Van Valkenburg clip designs. Also had some cool overlay designs as seen in books. I need to spread some out and take another look some time.

--Daniel

[david i]

Of course, we know where we must go to see the most Krakers on the internet.

Yeah, a quick peek at FPB. Weird how a Sheaffer dabbler can offer more of this stuff than Serious Sheaffer Collectors are willing (or able?).

Kraker Art Spread (n' more) at FPB. Photo by Yers Truly (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3304-kraker-pens/)

Another view of discussion and photo of Kraker (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/55-george-m-kraker/)

Discussion of Kraker by the late Dennis Bowden, taken from PENnant article, also next door. (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/655-kraker-pen-company-and-hallmark-pens/)

regards

-david

[kirchh]

Well, it's late and my Bingo game just ended (not exactly Bingo, but a variant). I didn't have an especially good card, but it's progressive, and I finally won. It's surprisingly enjoyable.

--Daniel

[david i]

Interesting to see what some Serious Sheaffer Collectors think will help newer collectors.

Good thing I'm around, even as a H-A-N :)

-d

[kirchh]

I finally got the 'O' I needed. Took a couple of tries but I'm patient, and I knew it would pay off if I stayed with it. Too bad you can't re-use duplicates elsewhere; I had quite a pile-up in the 'A' column. But rules is rules...

If I have time tomorrow I'll post some pictures of cool pen tops.

--Daniel

[david i]

It is my honor to educate the next generation. Medicine. Pens. Mentoring is fun. Some Serious Sheaffer Collectors should try it sometime.

That I can inspire the SSC to meet that standard is golden.

-d

[david i]

On the other hand I recall well the frightened faces of some of the SSC when Medicine happened at pen shows. So it's probably good we don't try to have the SSC do Medicine.

=d

[kirchh]

Now I got another square or two but I don't need 'em any more. An embarrassment of riches. Probably help one of the other players, though. Gotta start with a fresh card next time but it's always progressive.

Roger, thanks for being a good sport. Can you do a little spread of 3-25 pens with some commentary?

--Daniel

[david i]

Engaging to see the SSC fail to contribute. :)

-d

[david i]

To help those who won't, here be a remarkable spread of 3-25's, and more, with a unifying theme.


Yeah, we know where...

http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1550-sheaffer-orange-flat-top-worlds-largest-collection/

-d

[david i]

Too, I am glad all agree no one had to have said it has a wrong cap.

-d

[Roger W.]

David;

I think Paul was the only one that thought it might be the wrong cap from my comment on it being a late cap - or am I missing a zig in a very long thread over a couple of boards?

Roger W.

[kirchh]

I don't have my new card yet, but I'll go ahead and keep the ball rolling. Here's that Waterman Thorobred with the barrel- or fishbowl-shaped top containing a watch:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Waterman_barrel_top_Thorobred.jpg

Here's an instrument with a top shaped even more like a barrel! It's an Autopoint pencil:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Autopoint_barrel_top_pencil.jpg

Though not quite the inverse shape -- the Dunn's barrel bottom is a better example of that -- this is a typical bell top pencil; this one's also an Autopoint:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Autopoint_bell_top_pencil.jpg

All images are from "The Book of Fountain Pens and Pencils" by Fischler & Schneider.

--Daniel

[Roger W.]

David;

So you've got some coral 3-25's. Let's do this right.

Very few times can we say that Sheaffer ended a particular line and replaced it with another. If you say black and pearl was last used in the early 30’s I can show you wartime black and pearl. It is just really risky to say something ended with Sheaffer. Circa 1927, probably in line with the new 1928 catalog which likely came out for Christmas 1927, the radite low end lines got revamped. Up until then the 22 Student Special, 46 Special and Secretary had continued on from their hard rubber forebears. The late hard rubber models all had special chasing and the new radite was plain but, they were essentially the same models when radite came in in late 1924. Jade was highly touted and reserved for bigger pens with the 46 Special line only getting jade in late 1926. So the precursors to the 3-25 line were the 22 Student Special and the 46 Special. The 22 Student Special was only ever available in black and the 3-25 line adopted over both black and coral which meant coopting the 46 coral into a 3-25. The 46 jade moved into the 5-30 as the lowest available jade. By 1930 the 3-25 would be available in Jade and at some point the Black and Pearl was also available as a 3-25.

The last flattop was advertised in March 1929. By 1930 with the jade 3-25’s being available they were priced 50 cents higher at $3.50 and were catalog available in black or jade only. For Christmas 1932 the price sheet has the 3-25 line but, none of the pens are flattops though we know from examples that flattops were still available. The 1933 dealer sheet shows the 3-25 nib with a publish date of October, ‘33. The January ’34 brochure also shows the 3-25 nib with ball clip caps. The August 1935 catalog shows the 3 nib with flat ball caps. So I will concede it would be possible to have a flatball clip with a 3-25 nib in 1934.

Roger W.

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/4622a.jpg
The precursors to the 3-25 line 46 Specials and 22 Student Specials

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/325firstb.jpg
The first 3-25's 1928

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/3251930a.jpg
The 3-25 lineup 1930 (clips should all be lower but, the colors are there)

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/325lateb.jpg
Some of the 3-25 lineup after 1930 note the wide 3-25SC leading the line matching the K3-25SC


http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/325SClate.jpg
1935 3-25SC this one does have the 3 nib

[kirchh]

Nice exposition, Roger. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

--Daniel

[david i]

Roger, good job avoiding tangents-for-their-own-sake, as some pursue.

regards

-d

[kirchh]

On the subject of the shapes of tops (and bottoms), I was recently discussing with another collector why the "Half Balance" pens are not popular with Sheaffer collectors. I think it's primarily because they are ugly ducklings, and it is perceived that they could be created out of parts with relative ease.

--Daniel

[Roger W.]

On the subject of the shapes of tops (and bottoms), I was recently discussing with another collector why the "Half Balance" pens are not popular with Sheaffer collectors. I think it's primarily because they are ugly ducklings, and it is perceived that they could be created out of parts with relative ease.

--Daniel

Agreed. I've always said the only way to know for sure is if it has the original sticker with the appropriate code.

Roger W.

[david i]

One of the charms of being the seller moving perhaps the highest volume of 1920's-1950's Sheaffers out there, is that I get to collect, but also to see what collectors want. Another David and Gary though no doubt are competitive in Sheaffer sales.

I have plenty of requests regarding transitional Balance pens. They do seem popular with real world collectors, those seeking to buy things. And, of course, in the real world, where supplying collectors with good pens is an active challenge, finding parts that color match well isn't so easy. The Transitional pens tend not to outprice Balance, proper, despite their likely original relative scarcity, for reasons that likely are apparent. The Parker Duofold in Mandarin Yellow seemingly was not so desirable back in the day, though it is so today. Always fun to see how things evolve...

I have a couple of the best-color transitionals at home. Short/standard pens in essentially perfect jade and perfect black/pearl. Glorious. Though I but dabble at collecting, I'm lucky to have these.



-d

[kirchh]

On the subject of the shapes of tops (and bottoms), I was recently discussing with another collector why the "Half Balance" pens are not popular with Sheaffer collectors. I think it's primarily because they are ugly ducklings, and it is perceived that they could be created out of parts with relative ease.

--Daniel

Agreed. I've always said the only way to know for sure is if it has the original sticker with the appropriate code.

Roger W.

Exactly. Half Balances have an image as mutts, so interest in them is relatively low. They also don't represent a particularly interesting series in terms of variations, limiting their appeal. Perhaps "transitional" refers to the fact that one can assemble a Half Balance with parts from other pens, then disassemble it again and return the parts to the donor Balance and flat top.

--Daniel

[david i]

Transitional Sheaffer sees marked interest among collectors who buy pens.

It always though is interesting to see the perspective of people who don't supply people who buy pens.

As with the 1.5th generation Parker Vacumatics, oddities carry appeal.

I have tried to teach some other Serious Sheaffer Collectors to sell well, but some just lack the knack.

-d

[kirchh]

By way of explanation, these Half Balances likely were an effort by Sheaffer to liquidate excess flat top parts accumulated when large numbers of flat tops were turned back in by dealers due to the success of the Balance line and flat top production was halted.

--Daniel

[david i]

Always it is quite charming to see those who don't sell many Sheaffers and who have attended so few pen shows, imagine they know the market demand.

I'm glad my 1.5th Generation Vacumatic story inspired "revelation" of the similar tale of woe for the Sheaffer Transitional.

Weird that my role is to provoke information. But, it is easy to do, and is what works for some. :)

-d

[david i]

Roger and I of course have shared flat-top show and tell at our annual meetings at the Chicago Pen Show and at our frequent get togethers for the Janesville Pen Club.

I'm most grateful to him (no joke) for aiming some rather rare Sheaffer Balances my way. Who better to have weird Balances in the collection?

I doubt I will ever top the breadth of his flat-end Sheaffer collection, but when factoring in the color Jade with excellent color preservation, I suspect I give run for the money. I've long had a focus on clean Jade fountain pens, Jade being notorious for suffering severe discoloration. That too is why I outbid another Serious Sheaffer Collector for that superb Jade OS Balance, late issue with flat-ball clip, that popped up on ebay recently.


Here are some of my Jade pens, pertinent to this chat, from an old FPB chat, probably with Roger...


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffer_jade_tray_large1400b.jpg

regards

david

[kirchh]

The card is filling up faster than I anticipated. With technology, certain games can be transformed from their original, everyone-in-a-room-for-a-couple-of-hours format to something more wide-open in terms of time and place. Though games of chess by mail were not uncommon, I understand.

Coping with NPD can be stressful, and though each case is different, there are some common characteristics. Sheaffer thought it had something good, but it was unprepared for just how popular the Balance was, and the skyrocketing sales caused problems for the company at first. They reacted to their issues with intelligence and treated their partners (dealers) with class, rather than assuming an arrogant stance that would cripple their image with the trade. Though the company (and its leader) had a substantial ego, it was also secure enough to be willing to accept criticism with an objective attitude. The net result was a reinforcing of its reputation, rather than an inexorable erosion.

--Daniel

[david i]

So Roger,

Did the Jade 5-30 appear as a long Slender pen? If so, was it offered Standard girth and Slender girth same time, or did one give way to the other?

As an aside, I see Projection in some posts by a Serious Sheaffer Collector.

I suppose I can see that being embraced by those who don't well handle being... provoked.

Neat. ;)

-d

[jonveley]

One of the things I like best about being in the PCA is their online library of pen catalogs, free to download for members. After reading this thread I was curious enough to see what was there that might be relevant to this discussion, and I found the "transitional Balance" catalogued right next to the Balance on page 5 of the 1930 catalog.

The black and pearl Balance is assigned catalog number K8TC and is called the "Balance Lifetime fountain pen. Code BALAL." The transitional one is catalog K8AC and is called simply the "Lifetime Fountain Pen. Code BAKEB." The barrel end of the transitional has the slight taper to assist with posting and the pen is described as "Barrel end flat with Balance cap." Whether you bought the Balance Lifetime or the Lifetime, the price was the same - ten bucks. For an extra six bucks, you could get 14k trim on a Balance Lifetime.

The smaller version of the Lifetime fountain pen (K74AC) is on page 6. Then the whole thing is repeated, with different catalog numbers and codes, for the other available colors.

On page 20, there are what I would call flattop pens, described by Sheaffer as simply "Standard fountain pen."

I know that the serious Sheaffer guys already know all this stuff and that this stuff isn't new, but since there wasn't any mention of it in this thread that I saw (to be honest, I kinda drifted off a couple times) I thought this might be useful.

Also for those who don't know, the PCA's website is www.pencollectorsofamerica.com.

[david i]

Cousins, or perhaps uncle and nephew.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffer_truncatedbalance_balancepair900a.jpg

-d

[david i]

Solid gold trim indeed added that special something to Balance; it was offered far less frequently by Parker.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferbalanceautographgolf50.jpg



-d

[kirchh]

One of the things I like best about being in the PCA is their online library of pen catalogs, free to download for members. After reading this thread I was curious enough to see what was there that might be relevant to this discussion, and I found the "transitional Balance" catalogued right next to the Balance on page 5 of the 1930 catalog.

The black and pearl Balance is assigned catalog number K8TC and is called the "Balance Lifetime fountain pen. Code BALAL." The transitional one is catalog K8AC and is called simply the "Lifetime Fountain Pen. Code BAKEB." The barrel end of the transitional has the slight taper to assist with posting and the pen is described as "Barrel end flat with Balance cap." Whether you bought the Balance Lifetime or the Lifetime, the price was the same - ten bucks. For an extra six bucks, you could get 14k trim on a Balance Lifetime.

The smaller version of the Lifetime fountain pen (K74AC) is on page 6. Then the whole thing is repeated, with different catalog numbers and codes, for the other available colors.

On page 20, there are what I would call flattop pens, described by Sheaffer as simply "Standard fountain pen."

I know that the serious Sheaffer guys already know all this stuff and that this stuff isn't new, but since there wasn't any mention of it in this thread that I saw (to be honest, I kinda drifted off a couple times) I thought this might be useful.

Also for those who don't know, the PCA's website is www.pencollectorsofamerica.com (http://www.pencollectorsofamerica.com).

Hey Jon -

Good to see you here. I appreciate the presence of another researcher who has a focus on library and legal research, as too few do (though you should know we are not unappreciated, as gratifying expressions of great respect and enjoyment are occasionally received for our efforts).

As I detailed in this article (http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Sheaffer_Balance/Featherweight_vs_Heavyweight.pdf), Sheaffer had a rather sudden and unanticipated surplus of flat top pens; the "Half Balance" appears to be an effort to make lemonade out of those lemons. Note that the barrels are, in fact, the same as those for flat tops; they are no more tapered at the bottom, though this erroneous assertion did make its way into one pen book.

The catalogs available in the PCA library are extremely useful and interesting. That same catalog shows one example of Sheaffer's use of "flat top" when describing a, well, flat top. That fact has not come to the attention of everyone -- as noted, some concede that library research is not their focus -- but such important information is easily accessed for anyone with the inclination to do a little research.

Sheaffer was scrambling when the Balance was met with such unexpected popularity; in addition to halting production of flat tops, they even tried suspending advertising for the Balance and running flat top ads instead in an effort to relieve some of the excess stocks held by dealers.

--Daniel

[david i]

In general, to find solid gold trim applied to Parker's Vacumatic, one had to turn to Canada.

USA production Vacumatic Imperial Signet series with gold cap-band, clip and tassie are quite scarce. I have a couple. This shot shows Canadian Vacs with wide smooth solid-gold cap-band.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/vacumaticsolidgoldband24pens850a.jpg


-d

[david i]

I am glad, too, that it has been recognized that no one had to have told him his cap was wrong.

-d

[david i]

A very nicely preserved Sheaffer Jade flat-op amidst some not so nicely preserved.

Particularly appealing is the feature set that dates it to later than than the 1930 catalogue

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/Sheafferjadetray.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

Cruising through this one -- next one might have to be box or fill-the-card. One of my favorite marketing overstatements in that 1930 catalog is Sheaffer's description of its pocket-to-desk convertible pens as being "three-in-one".

--Daniel

[david i]

Kermit had it wrong.

It really is very easy being green (for cars though perhaps less so for pens).

This one has been very happy taking green Sheaffers to pen shows, nestled in their show-and-teach pen case, educating the next generation of pen collectors. :)


http://vacumania.com/jag/jaguar_blueridge_A900.jpg

-d

[jonveley]

Hey Daniel, good to see you as always!

I've had a few 3-25 Sheaffers over the years. At the top of the back of the clip there was (at least sometimes) a "3-25" imprint. Did the caps always/usually/normally have this imprint, or did they quit doing that by the time they were putting flat ball clips on them?

Again, I'm tuning in on page 7 of this. If someone addressed this already, it must have gotten buried.

[kirchh]

The PCA library was also one of the sources I used when researching Houston's products. Interesting company. Jon, what was the story with their unusual mechanical pencil?

--Daniel

[david i]

Had it by a nose.

http://vacumania.com/jag/jaguar_nose950atweak.jpg


-d

[kirchh]

Definitely fill-the-card. Or go to a cube.

The 1930 catalog is also interesting because it shows some influences of the economy; it's extensive, but color is used economically.

--Daniel

[david i]

Hey Daniel, good to see you as always!

I've had a few 3-25 Sheaffers over the years. At the top of the back of the clip there was (at least sometimes) a "3-25" imprint. Did the caps always/usually/normally have this imprint, or did they quit doing that by the time they were putting flat ball clips on them?

Again, I'm tuning in on page 7 of this. If someone addressed this already, it must have gotten buried.

Slender orange off-catalogue 3-25 pens lack that marking, iirc even before the ball clip gave way to the flat ball clip

http://vacumania.com/websitesalespics/pen3253lg.jpg

-d

[jonveley]

The PCA library was also one of the sources I used when researching Houston's products. Interesting company. Jon, what was the story with their unusual mechanical pencil?

--Daniel

Houston's? The companion pencil was the "Kaligraf." I blogged about Joe Nemecek's example at Leadhead's some time ago (http://leadheadpencils.blogspot.com/2013/02/martin-borbecks-busy-day.html). Since then, I've picked one up myself - a ringtop but with a full sized barrel.

Interesting that the Snapfil comes up ... ties in well with the article you wrote about the development of the Balance and the influence Sheaffer's cross-state competitor had in the process. You should post a link to that article here!

[david i]

Catch you boys tonight.

Need a few hours sleep before spending the night resuscitating the sick again.

I'm glad this was a good day for provoking Sheaffer information. Do keep the flow going. There is hope for you.


-d

[kirchh]

Going back to a post of Roger's, Sheaffer played fast and loose with color names when it came to the reds and oranges; sometimes a color was cardinal, other times it was cherry red; coral was also rubic; and both red and orange shared a color code, for further confusion. Waterman also used cardinal, but for a different color.

--Daniel

[jonveley]

Of course, imprints can be obliterated, either at the factory or somewhere along the way over the last 90 years.

[Roger W.]

David;

You bring up a good point on diameters of non-lifetime pens. Caring about non-lifetime pens is an odd place to be because almost nobody cares about them. For my part they are all part of the lineup and I am a completest. I will admit that until the whole slender/medium issue came up with corals I was to some extent checking off a box if I had the model and not detailed into the particulars of that model. There is a lot of work to do in this area. In reference to jades of the 5-30 line the question of diameter would be an open one. Yes the original J5-30C is a .48" dia. cap (thin with double bands). Then, strangely, the S models, both ring and clip double banded are medium frames at .52" caps (this difference is seen in the 1928 catalog so it isn't a matter that I've not collected enough of these models). What happens in 1930 when the double band is dropped? Well the 3-25 comes out in thin as a single band and we DON'T get a J-5-30C in a medium frame single band model - so maybe I can stop looking for one as I've always thought there aught to be one. We do get the S 5-30's (clip and ring) in single bands on medium frames. There may be anomalies available such as the late 3-25 in black on a medium frame which makes little sense but, when compared to a K3-25SC (short clip black and pearl in the above pictures) is in the same diameter for the period - weird. I for one appreciate the love being shown for the non-lifetimes.

Roger W.

[Roger W.]

Of course, imprints can be obliterated, either at the factory or somewhere along the way over the last 90 years.

Jon;

No, in this case the later 3-25's are not marked as a regular practice. The same thing happens with 5-30's and 7-30's. The 3-25 stamp on the cap appears to be a 1928/29 thing. I always try to emphasize this point that 5-30's and 7-30's were special for the double bands to these models - lifetimes did not have double bands at this introduction. The cap stamping may have been dropped even before the double banding was dropped (I have one such example) but, single banded 5-30's and 7-30's are never stamped. That 3-25's never were double banded we end up with stamped and non-stamped models which fits in with what happened with the larger pens but, without the banding distinction.

Roger W.

[Roger W.]

Definitely fill-the-card. Or go to a cube.

The 1930 catalog is also interesting because it shows some influences of the economy; it's extensive, but color is used economically.

--Daniel

Daniel;

I've always been curious about this catalog as I feel it was certainly developed before the stock market crash. When we look at the offerings Sheaffer has literally exploded the lines available. Therefore the catalog should be the same as 1928's full blown color. I wonder if there were indeed catalogs in full blown color but, that most were ran later with the limited color plates as we know the catalog today.

Roger W.

[jonveley]

By the way, kudos to the admins for that "Thanks" button. That's the best thing I've seen on one of these discussion boards since ... since... well, saying "Thanks!"

Appreciate the help.

[jonveley]

Definitely fill-the-card. Or go to a cube.

The 1930 catalog is also interesting because it shows some influences of the economy; it's extensive, but color is used economically.

--Daniel

Daniel;

I've always been curious about this catalog as I feel it was certainly developed before the stock market crash. When we look at the offerings Sheaffer has literally exploded the lines available. Therefore the catalog should be the same as 1928's full blown color. I wonder if there were indeed catalogs in full blown color but, that most were ran later with the limited color plates as we know the catalog today.

Roger W.

Have you checked with Bob Everett? I think he was either selling or assisting someone with selling reprints of old Sheaffer catalogs. He had quite a few on hand at the Michigan show a couple years ago.

[kirchh]

Of course, imprints can be obliterated, either at the factory or somewhere along the way over the last 90 years.
It is reasonable to conclude that, as the guarantees on the x-xx lines were dropped by 1930, the absence of the cap stamp indicated the absence of the corresponding guarantee.

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Of course, imprints can be obliterated, either at the factory ...

Jon -

You bring out an important point. Some of these x-xx pens did have their model numbers obliterated at the factory to convert them to pens with different positioning prior to sale, physical evidence suggests.

--Daniel

[Roger W.]

Of course, imprints can be obliterated, either at the factory ...

Jon -

You bring out an important point. Some of these x-xx pens did have their model numbers obliterated at the factory to convert them to pens with different positioning prior to sale, physical evidence suggests.

--Daniel
That did happen too but, the cap stamps mostly ended as a regular practice primarily.

Roger W.

[kirchh]

Of course, imprints can be obliterated, either at the factory ...

Jon -

You bring out an important point. Some of these x-xx pens did have their model numbers obliterated at the factory to convert them to pens with different positioning prior to sale, physical evidence suggests.

--Daniel
That did happen too but, the cap stamps mostly ended as a regular practice primarily.

Roger W.

i agree completely.

--Daniel

[david i]

Of course, imprints can be obliterated, either at the factory or somewhere along the way over the last 90 years.

Jon;

No, in this case the later 3-25's are not marked as a regular practice. The same thing happens with 5-30's and 7-30's. The 3-25 stamp on the cap appears to be a 1928/29 thing. I always try to emphasize this point that 5-30's and 7-30's were special for the double bands to these models - lifetimes did not have double bands at this introduction. The cap stamping may have been dropped even before the double banding was dropped (I have one such example) but, single banded 5-30's and 7-30's are never stamped. That 3-25's never were double banded we end up with stamped and non-stamped models which fits in with what happened with the larger pens but, without the banding distinction.

Roger W.

I'm baaAAAaaack.

Few hours sleep and soon off to the races.

Indeed, Roger, tomorrow sees dinner at our favorite Janesville restaurant, Hhfffrrrghhh's, with Lee Chait, before the Chicago Pen SHow.

The cap imprints tend to be pretty deep. It would take fair effort to obliterate them.

regards

david

[david i]

David;

You bring up a good point on diameters of non-lifetime pens. Caring about non-lifetime pens is an odd place to be because almost nobody cares about them. For my part they are all part of the lineup and I am a completest. I will admit that until the whole slender/medium issue came up with corals I was to some extent checking off a box if I had the model and not detailed into the particulars of that model. There is a lot of work to do in this area. In reference to jades of the 5-30 line the question of diameter would be an open one. Yes the original J5-30C is a .48" dia. cap (thin with double bands). Then, strangely, the S models, both ring and clip double banded are medium frames at .52" caps (this difference is seen in the 1928 catalog so it isn't a matter that I've not collected enough of these models). What happens in 1930 when the double band is dropped? Well the 3-25 comes out in thin as a single band and we DON'T get a J-5-30C in a medium frame single band model - so maybe I can stop looking for one as I've always thought there aught to be one. We do get the S 5-30's (clip and ring) in single bands on medium frames. There may be anomalies available such as the late 3-25 in black on a medium frame which makes little sense but, when compared to a K3-25SC (short clip black and pearl in the above pictures) is in the same diameter for the period - weird. I for one appreciate the love being shown for the non-lifetimes.

Roger W.

Geez, Roger, I don't know about "almost nobody cares about them", at least beyond the "almost nobody cares about flat-top Sheaffers". And, I'd disagree with that too.

I've seen more business demand in NWD orange Sheaffers, have more requests for NWD red Sheaffers and move plenty of metal NWD Sheaffers from the era, more business than for typical but bland green or black WD flattops. That mgiht be a bit apples-n-oranges though. Now, NWD vs WD Black or Jade? Tougher.

Ever since I accidentally bought that huge collection of early black cyclinders (more rubber than plastic). flat-end Sheaffers have had a habit of accumulating. I enjoy the NWD flattops at least as much as the WD pens, as the prior offres greater depth to collecting than the latter. Still, I'm avoiding the tendency toward completism.

Having that monster collection of off-catalogue cap-band Balances (including the few gems you aimed my way) is enough to hyper-focus on from that general era. Though, come to think of it, Coral flat-ends, Cherry flat-ends... I do have a couple mini-foci within the era that hae become completist projects.

-d

[kirchh]

Definitely fill-the-card. Or go to a cube.

The 1930 catalog is also interesting because it shows some influences of the economy; it's extensive, but color is used economically.

--Daniel

Daniel;

I've always been curious about this catalog as I feel it was certainly developed before the stock market crash. When we look at the offerings Sheaffer has literally exploded the lines available. Therefore the catalog should be the same as 1928's full blown color. I wonder if there were indeed catalogs in full blown color but, that most were ran later with the limited color plates as we know the catalog today.

Roger W.

It does have a cobbled-together look; the illustrations are in at least two different styles, for example. Some of the images look like they were cut/paste jobs to incorporate model redesigns, rather than being new drawings. Mid-1930 was after the crash, but it was far from the low point of the depression; things were still going downhill. The days of being able to sell huge ornate overlay pens were becoming a distant memory of better times (though Sheaffer never really offered any sort of giant pen), and lower-end items from major makers proliferated.

--Daniel

[david i]

Ornate giant overlays of course being something of the exception rather than the rule, as most collectors should know. Waterman offered such. Parker, Sheaffer, Wahl, Chilton, Moore, National... not so much.

-d

[david i]

For the many who have neither seen nor handled any Ornate Giant Overlays.

A Waterman 420 in RHR with Sterling Overlay, to scale with a superb Jade celluloid oversized Parker Duofold Senior.


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/waterman420sale.jpg

Both from the David R. Isaacson (what???) pen collection, the Waterman one of my best scores ever from good ol' ebay.

I well recall how very happy a Serious Sheaffer Collector was for me when I stumbled across the Waterman. Heh.

Love having the photo archive...

-d

[kirchh]

The 1930 catalog also saw the introduction of a new color to Sheaffer's range. Marbled Marine Green joined black and Black & Pearl, and the original Radite color, Jade. (Radite was first called Jadite, in fact, though only for a brief time before black joined Jade in the celluloid models.) Though Jade was aging, Sheaffer's supplier -- likely DuPont -- continued to reformulate it to address the discoloration problems that had cropped up and that are so evident in examples found today. By the time a bright, stable mottled green material was available, the color was fading out of fashion.

--Daniel

[david i]

Jade and all Celluloid colors always are aging. Most are fading too.

Go figure...

-d

[jonveley]

The 1930 catalog also saw the introduction of a new color to Sheaffer's range. Marbled Marine Green joined black and Black & Pearl, and the original Radite color, Jade. (Radite was first called Jadite, in fact, though only for a brief time before black joined Jade in the celluloid models.) Though Jade was aging, Sheaffer's supplier -- likely DuPont -- continued to reformulate it to address the discoloration problems that had cropped up and that are so evident in examples found today. By the time a bright, stable mottled green material was available, the color was fading out of fashion.

--Daniel

As a pencil guy, I don't have to deal with the discoloration issue nearly as much. Most of what I have is the same color as when they were made. When it comes to Sheaffer jade, I've noticed what appear to be three distinct colors -a dark, rich jade, one that I would refer to as an "apple" jade, and third a mousy, rather unattractive pea green.

Approximately 3, anyway. I do note what appear to be slight batch variations, but when you line up a couple dozen pencils, there appear to be three distinct families of material.

[david i]

Wholesale color shift independent of usage, d/t intrinsic instability of plastic, can occur. Pencils tend to lack the discoloration afflicting pens from specific challenges to pens, but there can be more...

-d

[kirchh]

Jon -

Good observation. Looking at just pencils can help identify the different materials used over the years. So many of the jade pens from all makers have discolored; it's hard to find enough clean examples to make a useful comparison.

--Daniel

[david i]

Zounds! I just scored 53 Flags on Plants vs Zombies, Vasebreaker Endless.

Happy David.

[jonveley]

Jon -

Good observation. Looking at just pencils can help identify the different materials used over the years. So many of the jade pens from all makers have discolored; it's hard to find enough clean examples to make a useful comparison.

--Daniel

Pencil barrels aren't exposed to ink, and they tend to be made from thicker material.

I do note that the apple and pea greens seem to appear with the flattops, while Balance pencils tend to have the darker, richer color. This is certainly consistent with the theory that they finally got the material right at around the time they gave up on it. It would be interesting to see a pea green Balance pencil - might suggest leftover stock being used?

[kirchh]

Even within the Balance's production time, there were several Jade formulations of increasing stability and saturation. Flat tops are found even in what seems to be the latest material used for Balances, serving as one of many pieces of evidence for the production of flat tops well after they were last cataloged or advertised. The pens made of the later Jade are found with bright, consistent color with some frequency, but it is a challenge to find better examples of earlier pens.

Sheaffer seems to have continued to make not just flat top pens, but matching pencils as well, deep into the '30s, so I would expect Jade flat top pencils to show up in a wide array of Radite formulations.

--Daniel

[david i]

Good thing the halt wasn't permanent.

Yeep!

-d

[kirchh]

Sheaffer generally seems not to have mixed different Jade formulations on their higher-end pens, but the less-expensive models did not seem to enjoy this measure of protection. Here's a group of 3-25s that apparently demonstrates the use of more and less color-stable Jade stock within the same pen:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/4_Jade_Mismatches_composite.jpg

(the bars at the top and bottom show top and bottom views of the pens)

--Daniel

[david i]

To see the impact of Jade color preservation on cachet and value, a real world example can be found in the latest offering of Sheaffer pens this month.

As seen with pricing Diamonds, so to with Sheaffers in Jade

http://www.vacumania.com/websitesales/forsalesheafferearly.htm


-d

[kirchh]

Of course, Sheaffers were not alone in being afflicted with deterioration of their earlier Jade pens; earlier Jade Parkers sometimes turn up so pale and transparent that they are mistaken for demonstrators by those unfamiliar with the extent of this effect. On the other hand, brilliant examples of jade pens are sufficiently uncommon that they can be quite stunning to collectors who expect Jade pens to have a brownish cast.

--Daniel

[david i]

I remain impressed how many Serious Sheaffer Collectors let Sheaffer sub-brand pens fall under the radar.

-d

[david i]

Note the good and bad color thingy. Page 7 this discussion. Heh.

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/Sheafferjadetray.jpg


-d

[Jon Szanto]

Well...


http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/Sheafferjadetray.jpg

Thanks for that! At least I know that (some of) my Sheaffer flat-tops aren't the worst discolored in the world! ;)

[david i]

Aw, Jon. You still always can strive still to be #1! :)

-d

[kirchh]

When a fine-color example of a Jade pen is viewed, it is easy to see the arresting quality these pens had when new, and why they were such popular items. They can be quite breathtaking, and the effect must have been that much greater on consumers when they first appeared in a market dominated by black pens.

--Daniel

[Roger W.]

A rare jade JT8SC.

Roger W.

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/JT8SC.jpg
T sized flattops are unusual to find. While only in the 1925 catalog we know that they were produced for several years.

[Roger W.]

Jade anomalies can also be found. This one is a white dot that turned out to be a J7-30C.

Roger W.

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/J7-30LT.jpg

[Roger W.]

This is an interesting one. Note that the top one is a lifetime with 5-30 banding.

Roger W.

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/5-30vLT.jpg

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/5-30vLTtop.jpg
Caps of the 5-30 and LT

[Roger W.]

If you really like jade the 1/2" block of radite, model 112 is for you.

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/112.jpg
Model 112

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/112label.jpg
It was an inexpensive set meant to be matched with the lowest desk pen of the line a J3-25D

[kirchh]

Roger -

Your banded Lifetime pens are examples of factory up-conversions of x-xx pens to Lifetimes, it is reasonable to conclude. Note the varying thickness of the black band, evidencing the thinning of the band due to the removal of the model stamp.

Thanks for posting those images.

--Daniel

[Jon Szanto]

Aw, Jon. You still always can strive still to be #1! :)

Ha! Well, my days of striving are (thankfully) behind me, I'm happy to be back in the pack in the pen world. #1 is fun at times, but not - for me - for the duration.

I only have 4-5 of these jade flat-tops, and even among mine the range of discoloration is pretty wide. Only one that even comes close to a mostly pristine pen, but they are still placeholders.

[david i]

If you really like jade the 1/2" block of radite, model 112 is for you.

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/112.jpg
Model 112

It was an inexpensive set meant to be matched with the lowest desk pen of the line a J3-25D


Ah, Roger, a collector in my vein. That's a great set. In this case though, I am at least not green with envy.

A different sort of green, maybe...

Here's mine. I think Paul Erano took a few of my Wearevers in trade for it ;)

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffer_deskset_jade900a.jpg


I wonder how many of us have managed to score one of these. Not too shabby for a Hack Amateur Newbie, I figure.



regards

d

[kirchh]

The differing stabilities of jade celluloid formulations shows up in those Sheaffers occasionally found with dull Jade caps bearing brighter green cap lips. It's not clear whether these represent original construction, factory repairs, other repairs, or yet another explanation (or, of course, some mix of these scenarios). There are Balances found in the wild with extremely well-done mortise-and-tenon cap lip joints, and Sheaffer certainly was capable of producing caps of such construction, as certain models were always made that way. Some flat tops' barrels also are found having a similar construction, with the barrel mouth threads being formed on a separate piece of celluloid that is mortised into the barrel.

--Daniel

[david i]

About half the local Jade.

Yowzer...


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/jadecollection50pens750.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

Another construction that shows differing Jade materials on one item is that of the Lifetime down-conversion, where a White Dot is filled with what was likely matching celluloid when the conversion was done, but the insert was probably later, more stable material, and so the filled area retained its brilliance far better than the likely older Jade around it, resulting in a "green dot" appearance:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Jade_Plugged_Dots.jpg

--Daniel

[david i]

Jade was the most prevalent color, save for black, during its era of use.

One day this one will go to Pete, as promised.

The only known Jade Chameleon.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/chameleonA850sharp.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

Here's another view of the rightmost pen shown in my previous post:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_5-30_Cap_with_WASP_Lining_Filled_Dot.jpg


But the real surprise is revealed when a look is taken inside...
http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_5-30_Cap_with_WASP_Lining.jpg

Occasionally, one finds these Sheaffers (both flat tops and Balances) that have caps sleeved in a WASP celluloid. It is not clear if this is original construction or, for example, a factory repair for skipping threads.

--Daniel

[david i]

A glorious pen.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffer_curse_blackdot700a.jpg


Go figure...

-d

[kirchh]

Here's another example of a Sheaffer with WASP-material lining the cap:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Marine_Green_Balance_Cap_with_WASP_Lining _6.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Marine_Green_Balance_Cap_with_WASP_Lining _2.jpg

This would appear to be another example of how pen manufacturers tried not to waste anything, and sought ways to make constructive use of excess products or materials.

--Daniel

[david i]

One of the best examples of my provoking information from info hoarders involved this pen.

Note the similarities. Eagle's "Balance" displeased Sheaffer. When I spread word I would release information about the Sheaffer-Eagle (and other) lawsuits, I prompted the release of even more information on that subject.

Great pen.

Since then, I've found others still.


Sheaffer Lawsuit at Fountain Pen Board (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2450-mythbusters-sheaffers-balance-lawsuit/)


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/eagle_balance_jade_900a.jpg


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/eagle_balance_jade_900b.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

Jon -

Further to your mention of factory obliteration of the model stamping, here's an example of an up-converted Jade 7-30; the pen has a White Dot, and the "7-30" stamp has been removed, but a ghost of it is still visible:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Black_Banded_Jade_OS_Flattop_Lifetime_Rem oved_7-30_Stamp.jpg

--Daniel

[david i]

Eagle of course goes way back, offering some very early cartridge pens

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/eaglecartridge850sharp.jpg

-d

[Farmboy]

Is it me or are there several distinct yet commingled conversations happening here?

The lined caps are interesting.

[kirchh]

Is it me or are there several distinct yet commingled conversations happening here?

The lined caps are interesting.

I agree. Here's another shot that seems to show that the lining material stops part-way up, perhaps indicating it is in fact a thread repair:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Marine_Green_Balance_Cap_with_WASP_Lining _4.jpg

==Daniel

[david i]

Oh, baby...


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferwasp_circuit_pointypair900a.jpg


-d

[kirchh]

Here's a view of the top of an up-converted Jade 7-30 compared to a regular Jade 7-30, clearly showing how the black band has been thinned where the "7-30" stamp was taken off:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Black_Banded_Jade_OS_Flattop_Lifetime_and _7-30_Cap_Comparison.jpg

--Daniel

[david i]

Damn. I just missed getting 54 flags on Vasebreaker Endless in Plants vs Zombies...

Ah well.

Maybe later.

-d

[kirchh]

On the topic of Sheaffer Juniors, here's an interesting variant that Jon Veley blogged about (http://leadheadpencils.blogspot.com/2011/12/sheaffer-pearlies-part-2-and-then-there.html).

--Daniel

[Farmboy]

Is it me or are there several distinct yet commingled conversations happening here?

The lined caps are interesting.

I agree. Here's another shot that seems to show that the lining material stops part-way up, perhaps indicating it is in fact a thread repair:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Marine_Green_Balance_Cap_with_WASP_Lining _4.jpg

==Daniel
Very interesting that they sleeved the bottom of the cap. Perhaps a manufacturing issue on the line resulted in a batch of over cut threads. When realized they set up to bore past the threads and then solvent welded in an appropriate sleeve then the inner profile and threads were recut. Essentially as you indicate, they made good on a manufacturing error as the input of additional labor and material was still better than disposal of the errant caps.

[kirchh]

Very interesting that they sleeved the bottom of the cap. Perhaps a manufacturing issue on the line resulted in a batch of over cut threads. When realized they set up to bore past the threads and then solvent welded in an appropriate sleeve then the inner profile and threads were recut. Essentially as you indicate, they made good on a manufacturing error as the input of additional labor and material was still better than disposal of the errant caps.

Could be. Interesting that this has been observed on a converted 5-30 flat top as well as a marbled Marine Green Balance. Of course, were the added material not so distinctive, we might not notice this sleeved construction, so there might be more of it than we are presently aware of.

--Daniel

[david i]

Syd the Wahlnut's view of the history with Eagle.


Nice recap of the LexisNexis information driven info. LN has been around in one form or another for at least 45 years. When I was in law school (1968) every first year student had to take "Legal Bib" and learn how to use the law library to dig for cases and other information. LN grew out of a US Air Force data base search engine that tapped into a legal research hard copy database that was growing for maybe 100 years.and evolved into a great computer based tool for legal research. David asks:"How many attorneys collect pens? How long has LexisNexis been around? No one with access bothered to hunt, in all this time?" The question supposes that no one has used it to hunt for pen related legal issues…not so at least in my case. Not publishing the LexisNexis driven results on line does not necessarily mean the resource or the information derived from it or other research tools has not been used. Cliff Harrington is an attorney and a big Wahl-Eversharp expert collector. I would be amazed if he had not also been using it, but that is for him to say.

For those who might be interested, About 6 years ago when the anecdotal/legend of the legal issues was a hot topic for a while,( in no small part due to David I's interest in the subject,) I had posted on one or another list that in addition to the legal records David mentions (which at the time I think I mentioned as Sheaffer legal activity or some such catch-all phrase, about the Balance design issue, I mentioned correspondence with the surviving attorney in Chicago with the historical legal records from Wahl Co./Eversharp, Inc. who corroborated not just the threat of possible legal action, but other correspondence on the subject between the companies. Why might it be that Wahl was not actually sued over the Balance? Sheaffer had a competitive yet "friendly" relationship with Wahl. Wahl and Sheaffer were "working together" at least from the licensing of Sheaffer elements in Wahl Pens such as one of the lever systems. Sheaffer and Wahl were on speaking terms and the correspondence between them in the presence of other law suits, appears all that was necessary to persuade Wahl to change its design. Law suits cost $$ and are the last resort when correspondence to achieve the same ends break down.

Syd "the Wahlnut" Saperstein

[kirchh]

With regard to factory-made Sheaffers with separate cap lips, the Ebonized Pearl pens' caps (and barrels) were made from multiple pieces of material. This appears to be because the EP stock was a layered construction, with black celluloid innermost, then the mother-of-pearl chips, and finally a clear layer of celluloid on top. This would prove challenging to form or turn into tapered shapes as were needed for cap tops and lips, so instead, a central cylindrical portion of EP tube was fitted with plain black pieces on top and bottom: the black cap lip thus was mortised in under the cap band.

--Daniel

[Roger W.]

With regard to factory-made Sheaffers with separate cap lips, the Ebonized Pearl pens' caps (and barrels) were made from multiple pieces of material. This appears to be because the EP stock was a layered construction, with black celluloid innermost, then the mother-of-pearl chips, and finally a clear layer of celluloid on top. This would prove challenging to form or turn into tapered shapes as were needed for cap tops and lips, so instead, a central cylindrical portion of EP tube was fitted with plain black pieces on top and bottom: the black cap lip thus was mortised in under the cap band.

--Daniel

And that all helps to support the thought that replaced lips are factory made for other cap models rather than waste a cap with a lip problem since they were proficient at mortising such a piece. Of course that may not be the case in all instances as there are several talented individuals out there today that can do the same thing. So what is the overall impression to be of non-EP's with replaced cap lips? Serious flaw or possible factory repair so it's acceptable? Or like many things, look for a better example?

Roger W.

[david i]

Better and better...

Finding the knives is fairly easy. I was happy to be pointed at them by some online bidding patterns.


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferwasp_circuit_pointypairB900a.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

With regard to factory-made Sheaffers with separate cap lips, the Ebonized Pearl pens' caps (and barrels) were made from multiple pieces of material. This appears to be because the EP stock was a layered construction, with black celluloid innermost, then the mother-of-pearl chips, and finally a clear layer of celluloid on top. This would prove challenging to form or turn into tapered shapes as were needed for cap tops and lips, so instead, a central cylindrical portion of EP tube was fitted with plain black pieces on top and bottom: the black cap lip thus was mortised in under the cap band.

--Daniel

And that all helps to support the thought that replaced lips are factory made for other cap models rather than waste a cap with a lip problem since they were proficient at mortising such a piece. Of course that may not be the case in all instances as there are several talented individuals out there today that can do the same thing. So what is the overall impression to be of non-EP's with replaced cap lips? Serious flaw or possible factory repair so it's acceptable? Or like many things, look for a better example?

Roger W.

Given the number of these found in the wild, I suspect at least some of them are period repairs. Indeed, a talented workman can perform the repair, but I doubt a significant percentage of repair shops would engage in lathe work, though there could have been some of that after parts were no longer available.

Also consider not just what we do find, but what we don't -- always a potentially useful approach to discerning what may have transpired. Are Jade Duofolds seen with replaced cap lips? Wahls? Why the difference? Hmm...

--Daniel

[david i]

Neat Green Sheaffer flat-top with primo color, part of one of the several trays of pen booty from the Chicago 2011 pen show. The earlier BHR Sheaffer I tend to sell very well. Many turn up with flex nibs.

Love that booty.

Come to think of it, those sweet Parker Royal Challengers might have been aimed my way by Roger.

http://vacumania.com/essaypics/chicago2011bootyH850.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

Very occasionally, one finds an Ebonized Pearl pen with a piece of the nacre sufficiently large that an edge of it breaches the surface and it can be felt.

As to how we should assess Sheaffers with contrasting-color cap lips (due to differences in color stability) -- that's an excellent question. Perhaps we should examine black and black & pearl pens more closely for similar treatment. Black celluloid doesn't fade (though it does show up in a small range of shades), and Sheaffer never seems to have used a truly stable black & pearl material, though the later celluloid might have been nominally better than the earlier efforts.

--Daniel

[david i]

Particularly charming to even dabblers in Sheaffer collecting, are the rather exotic Non White Dot oversized Balance pens. I have a complete color set as well as one that is particularly exotic.

Here are a couple classics in that uncommon line.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferbalance_oversize_nonWD_pair900a.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

Here's an example of color variation in black celluloid; the pen on the left is an unusual clipless oversize Sheaffer Lifetime flat top:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Clipless_OS_Flat_Top.jpg

--Daniel

[david i]

Too, it is interesting that some might think the later black-and-pearl plastic Sheaffers have more stable plastic than earlier. Perhaps this is because people have a habit not to define terms.

Having handled oodles of such pens, I find that while the pearl part tends to discolor a bit less than the pearl on earlier pens, it has a far greater habit of developing central- often stellate- cracks. I don't consider a greater tendency to crack a sign of greater stability than a greater tendency to discolor

Just sayin'...

-d

[kirchh]

Initially Sheaffer had three suppliers of celluloid (though they expected to have four; here's an article discussing the start of Sheaffer's use of celluloid (http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Cryptopenology%206%20-%20Early%20Lifetimes%20-%20Final%20with%20Figures.pdf); it needs a bit of updating, but it is informative on this topic nonetheless). For a time, Sheaffer tracked which supplier provided the material for each pen, as they were likely uncertain about how the pens would hold up, and they wanted some diversity to hedge their risk.

--Daniel

[david i]

Here is a grand pen, demonstrating the instability of the later black-and-pearl Sheaffer plastic.

A very unusual piece, it not only is a ringtop oversized, but has both ringtop and clip. Great story behind it. It was offered to me for $180 or so (very cheap for the color/size/anomaly) because it had cracks. I photographed it but did not buy it, as I tend not to buy flawed pens, even of interest, unless they are very inexpensive. The pen eventually went to ebay in a group of five pens, which I won for a total of $110, then sold the other four pens for $160. I'll buy a flawed pen when I am paid $50 to take it ;)

The cap has late features, the flat-ball clip, the late generally less discolored plastic.


Note the cracks. There are more. The early plastic tends not to crack within the panels proper. A reaction to inner cap? Stress from clip? Often there is localized discoloration by the cracks. This pen has more cracks than this.


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferbalance_os_ringandclip950a.jpg


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferbalance_os_ringandclip950b.jpg

In our chat about this sort, over at Fountain Pen Board, Woody posted a follow up with a pic of one of his late black-and-pearl Balances, later still than mine, featuring a radius clip. Verrrry clean color. Note the crack though

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-kPTHVR2/0/M/i-kPTHVR2-M.jpg

Photo archives are fun.

-d

[kirchh]

Sheaffer, and others, were seeking new materials in the '40s and '50s; Sheaffer switched first to Forticel
and then to Bakelite C-11 for the Snorkel. These materials were thermoplastics and parts could be formed by injection molding. When Sheaffer introduced its iitems made of Forticel, it briefly continued to make items from celluloid so consumers could have pens and pencil sets if they had previously acquired just a celluloid pen.

--Daniel

[david i]

Forticel, fun stuff. Well described in a Sheaffer company mag (what was it, "Sheaffer Review"?) in 1948. Always good to provide details. One might think this info is hard to find. Not so much. If I can find my original copy on my next swing through NYC, I will offer the info directly.

Oh, wait. Never mind ;)

It's nice to offer readers hard info...


http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffer_forticel_1948spread900a.jpg

regards

d

[kirchh]

Though the Balance was a huge success, there continued to be a low-level demand for flat top pens, apparently into WWII, as evidenced by attributes seen on some examples, such as apparent gold-plated silver trim parts.

Sheaffer, like some other makers, began using gold plating rather than the more expensive gold fill during the depths of the Depression.

--Daniel

[david i]

One of the things I find weird, ironic, poignant and more is that as a wee dabbler in Sheaffer, I've managed to put together there world's most comprehensive collection of Balance with off-catalogue cap-bands. Since none of the serious collectors cared to share too much about them, or lacked the material to present, I gave PENnant a monster article on that subject a year or so back.

There are so many more lurking in the collection now, but this old pic shows some of 'em.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferbalancedoubletripleband950a.jpg

-d

[jonveley]

Jon -

Further to your mention of factory obliteration of the model stamping, here's an example of an up-converted Jade 7-30; the pen has a White Dot, and the "7-30" stamp has been removed, but a ghost of it is still visible:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Black_Banded_Jade_OS_Flattop_Lifetime_Rem oved_7-30_Stamp.jpg

--Daniel

So all of the "30" series pens had those black bands?

[jonveley]

Is it me or are there several distinct yet commingled conversations happening here?


Too bad, really.

[jonveley]

Here's a view of the top of an up-converted Jade 7-30 compared to a regular Jade 7-30, clearly showing how the black band has been thinned where the "7-30" stamp was taken off:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Black_Banded_Jade_OS_Flattop_Lifetime_and _7-30_Cap_Comparison.jpg

--Daniel

Looks like they got a little bite on the clip, too.

[david i]

Of course the weak point on many of the Sheaffer sub-brand pens from the 1930's is the trim finish. Good solid plastic. Cheap trim.

-d

[jonveley]

On the topic of Sheaffer Juniors, here's an interesting variant that Jon Veley blogged about (http://leadheadpencils.blogspot.com/2011/12/sheaffer-pearlies-part-2-and-then-there.html).

--Daniel

Ah yes -- and after finding number 7 1/2 (here (http://leadheadpencils.blogspot.com/2013/04/and-then-there-were-7-12.html)), I've since found that Sheaffer made pearlies in the thin model size ... do I call it 8 or 8 1/2?

[jonveley]

Very occasionally, one finds an Ebonized Pearl pen with a piece of the nacre sufficiently large that an edge of it breaches the surface and it can be felt.

As to how we should assess Sheaffers with contrasting-color cap lips (due to differences in color stability) -- that's an excellent question. Perhaps we should examine black and black & pearl pens more closely for similar treatment. Black celluloid doesn't fade (though it does show up in a small range of shades), and Sheaffer never seems to have used a truly stable black & pearl material, though the later celluloid might have been nominally better than the earlier efforts.

--Daniel

Joe Nemecek just won that ebonized pearl golf pencil- he's as happy as we pencil guys get. He's got a repairman lined up as we speak. It will be nice to shoot that one so that the photographs will be publicly available of them.

[Roger W.]

Jon;

The initial 30 year guarantee pens got black banding which lasted until circa 1930 when they are found without the black banding with only the nib to indicate the guarantee (though I'm not sure exactly when the guarantee ended though the nib marking indicating such ended in 1934 - as we established some pages back). I do have a non black banded 5-30 stamped on the top as such but I think that unusual.

Roger W.

[kirchh]

So all of the "30" series pens had those black bands?

They did for a time (speaking of the Jade pens -- the black pens were all-black), but not towards the end of their run. Roger will have more precise data.

--Daniel
E.T.A.: He beat me to it!

[david i]

Sorry for delay. Arrived at hospital to an acute MI. Didn't even have time for usual dinner on arrival. Have ten minutes finally to chew the broccoli, now that all be stable upstairs.

I wonder if anyone else has scored a triple band pen in striated plastic?

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferbalance_off_catalogue2013_May1000a.jpg

-d

[david i]

The Dave n' Danny Show, 2009.



As a wee dabbler in Sheaffer with minimal interest in pencils, it's pretty cool that I have a gem off catalogue Ebonized Pearl golf pencil of my own. Since the original Off-Catalogue discussion, the pencil has been found to have been at least brochured.

Still, so much great pen stuff falls into my lap, that I guess it was inevitable one would find me.



Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 18:15:35 +0000 (UTC)
Yes, this is the one from ebay last week. Unlikely to be same one as from France.

Interesting find, from the "slice of life" standpoint.

The uncatalogued Ebonized Pearl golf pencil was part of a collection of four Ebonized Pearl Sheaffers in a single lot. whic included: a) Two pens, both the "stubby" Standard size one White Dot one not, b) stubby Standard pencil and c) the golf pencil all are in superb shape with bright color and minimal wear. All are stamped with same owner's name.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheafferbalanceebonized4items.jpg

Perhaps a gift of significance but not clearly regularly used ;)

I am fond of the stubby Balances, in general.

Of course as I wanted mainly the golf pencil (I believe I own the stubby pens already, but not sure), now I am torn about letting the other pieces go vs. keeping the named set together.

Meanwhile my Sheaffer golf pencil collection does pretty well. Only variant I've seen which I don't own (of course this does not consider variants I've not heard of) is the Black Autograph of sort I believe David Nishimura had on his website year or two back.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffergolfpencilcollection850a.jpg

regards

david






----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Kirchheimer" <kirchh_zoss_list@...>


These are cute, and I've not seen them cataloged. I've come across perhaps 4-5 of them; one sold on eBay recently, and I think JeanB on Pentrace showed one recently as well (might all be the same one, so I'm counting them as a single example).


http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffergolfpencilcollection850a.jpg

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/Sheaffergolfpencilebonized.jpg

[david i]

Or, has been said... Happy David.

-d

[kirchh]

The 7-30s are interesting because of the subtle diameter differences between them and the oversize flat top Lifetime pen. Roger, can you elaborate on that?

The other Sheaffer item with a black band on the cap is the first version of the J74TR, which bore a short black quill at the end of the barrel. It had a shortish flat top cap with a ring and a black band with an inset White Dot.

--Daniel

[gweddig]

Somewhere in this thread is an early Sheaffer model flowchart... Or book.

[david i]

Picked up some nice ones on ebay this week.

-d

[kirchh]

Somewhere in this thread is an early Sheaffer model flowchart... Or book.

Roger in particular is a wealth of information about the early Sheaffers. He has done a lot of work to sniff out and integrate a tremendous amount of information about that period.

--Daniel

[david i]

A terrific black and pearl Gold Bond flat top made by National.

-d

[HughC]

A terrific black and pearl Gold Bond flat top made by National.

-d

I like National, underrated imo .

Regards
Hugh

[david i]

Hi Hugh,

I have forgotten. Do you receive PENnant Magazine?

regards

-d

[kirchh]

The black-banded Sheaffer models appear to have been an example of Sheaffer's oft-employed tactic of parallel diminishment, whereby they had a product in their line that was configured or named in such a way as to be viewed by consumers as being comparable to a top-of-the-line model or series from a competitor (usually Parker), but it was positioned in Sheaffer's line below Sheaffer's best pens, thus implicitly sending the message that Sheaffer offered better pens than their competitors' best. Sheaffer's use of the names VACUUM and VACUUM-FIL for secondary line pens appears to be an attempt to parallel the then-threatening Vacumatic and diminish it by comparison. Earlier, the black-banded flat tops seem intended to be Sheaffer's parallel offering to Parker's Duofold, with the obvious similarity in color, and with an identical price structure of $5 (5-30 and Duofold Jr.) and $7 (7-30 and Duofold Senior). It would seem that Sheaffer also carefully chose the second part of the model designation, which indicated (during the first part of those models' runs) the length of the guarantee ; the Duofold bore a 25-year guarantee, and Sheaffer topped that with their 30-years. And, of course, Sheaffer could also send the message that their slightly-better-than-a-Duofold model wasn't even their flagship -- that honor went to the Lifetime pens, for which Parker at the time had no parallel in price or guarantee.

--Daniel

[david i]

Speaking of Sheaffers...

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/craigdisplaycardB850sharp.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

The 7-30 pens, along with the largest Secretary, also offered consumers a large Sheaffer flat top pen with a flexible nib option, which was not yet available in the Lifetime line, as Sheaffer was likely counting on the durability of their rigid Lifetime nibs to keep the number of free warranty repairs to a minimum. 7-30s and Secretaries are found with nice flexible nibs from time to time. Sheaffer also offered a more expensive pen that was essentially the same as the oversize Lifetime flat top, but it bore a flexible No. 8 Self-Filling nib and it lacked the White Dot and the attendant guarantee.

--Daniel

[david i]

More of 'em...

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/craigdisplaycardC850sharp.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

Here's an example of an oversize Sheaffer flat top which is a non-Lifetime model; it's got a flexible SECRETARY nib and lacks a White Dot:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Sheaffer_Black_Radite_Secretary.jpg

I don't recall this model being included in catalogs, but Roger might have additional information about it.

--Daniel

[david i]

I well remember snapping up this one.

http://vacumania.com/websitesalespics/pen3018lg.jpg

-d

[kirchh]

As mentioned earlier, an oversize flat top Sheaffer could be had with a flexible nib before such nibs were available in the Lifetime line. These are otherwise identical to the Radite (celluloid) Lifetime model except for the nib and the lack of a White Dot; even the price was the same:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Fig_20_2_Sheaffer_8s.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Fig_21_2_Sheaffer_8_Stickers_and_Caps.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/NPD/Fig_22_2_Sheaffer_8_Nibs.jpg

--Daniel

[Jeph]

This thread has become obscene with wondrous old Sheaffer pens.
More please!

[jonveley]

Somewhere in this thread is an early Sheaffer model flowchart... Or book.

Roger in particular is a wealth of information about the early Sheaffers. He has done a lot of work to sniff out and integrate a tremendous amount of information about that period.

--Daniel

+1 to that, and Daniel is being far too modest!

[jonveley]

Speaking of Sheaffers...

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/craigdisplaycardB850sharp.jpg

-d

Last I heard those belong to Dan Reppert. Actually, to Dan Reppert's wife. Since that picture lacks a certain studio lustre, it would appear to have been taken at the Chicago show a couple years ago, rather than from the photographer's collection.

[kirchh]

Somewhere in this thread is an early Sheaffer model flowchart... Or book.

Roger in particular is a wealth of information about the early Sheaffers. He has done a lot of work to sniff out and integrate a tremendous amount of information about that period.

--Daniel

+1 to that, and Daniel is being far too modest!

Well, thank you. But I have learned that being too taken with one's own supposed knowledge can lead to an embarrassing overconfidence when issuing authoritative-sounding or boastful proclamations, and that ultimately erodes one's reputation as a source of accurate information. So I take care to avoid that path, and it is ever-clearer to me that I made a wise choice in that regard. Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

--Daniel

[jonveley]

Somewhere in this thread is an early Sheaffer model flowchart... Or book.

Roger in particular is a wealth of information about the early Sheaffers. He has done a lot of work to sniff out and integrate a tremendous amount of information about that period.

--Daniel

+1 to that, and Daniel is being far too modest!

Well, thank you. But I have learned that being too taken with one's own supposed knowledge can lead to an embarrassing overconfidence when issuing authoritative-sounding or boastful proclamations, and that ultimately erodes one's reputation as a source of accurate information. So I take care to avoid that path, and it is ever-clearer to me that I made a wise choice in that regard. Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

--Daniel

--Daniel

Agreed - the moment anyone assumes they have all the answers, they quit listening to questions.

[david i]

Kazango baby...


http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffer_flattop_stubby_fat900a.jpg


-d

[david i]

.
.



Indeed, I well recall serious pencil guys watching with envy as I photographed 'em. Go figure...


http://www.vacumania.com/penteech2/craigdisplaycardB850sharp.jpg

-d

[Roger W.]

Here are some oversized flattops -
Roger W.

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/flats1.jpg