Tooth vs. smoothness

[JHanna]

Hello all:

I am just beginning a collection and want to make sure that I understand the terminology well. I'm assuming that "tooth" and "smooth" are at opposite ends of the spectrum and that smoothness is a desirable characteristic. A couple of months ago I purchased a Lamy Vista (medium) that I really liked. 2 weeks ago I bought a Lamy 2000 (also medium) while on a trip to NYC. Call me crazy but I like the Vista better. The 2000 is so smooth that I feel like I have less control over it and that my already horrible handwriting suffers as a result. The 2000 also skips periodically - something that the Vista almost never does. Could a nib be too smooth?

I've read that Aurora nibs offer more tooth. Is there an Aurora (or other manufacturer) that is comparable in price and quality to the 2000 that would have more tooth? Lastly, could the 2000's nib be modified to have more tooth (and more consistent ink flow)?


Thanks

[mhosea]

The term "tooth" refers to a scraping sensation. Smoothness is rather loosely defined, but I suppose you could consider it a lack of tooth. It does not necessarily mean that the nib doesn't give any sense of texture. I think different people have different ideas about this, but there are some Sailor nibs that deliver a lot of feeling of texture. They remind me of a felt-tip pen. A lot of people still regard these nibs as being very smooth, while others equate smoothness with lower drag.

I do think the problem with the 2000 is that it is a bit too smooth. You may learn to adjust to it over time. If not, then a few strokes (really not that much!) over the gray 12000 grit surface of nail buff sticks like these

http://www.fountainpensacs.com/nib_polishing_sticks.html

might tame it for you. (Don't use the pink or white for this!)

[Lady Onogaro]

Hi, JHanna,

Your question is a great one. Some people prefer smoothness, and others like a bit of toothiness (or feedback). But remember that papers can have this quality as well. Even with your Lamy 2000, you may feel that a paper like that in the Banditapple Carnet notebooks gives you some feedback, while Clairfontaine or Rhodia paper generally won't.

My smoothest writer is my Parker 45 which has a steel nib. My toothiest writer was a Pilot Penmanship (until I did some work on it) and my Pelikan M200 (but I like the feedback from the Pelikan, where the feedback on the Pilot was really unpleasant.

Your Lamy shouldn't skip just because it is smooth (that isn't a characteristic of a nib being smooth, I think). Perhaps it is a problem with the tines or something else. I'm sure others will answer and give you some ideas.

I think any good nibmeister would work with you to give you what you want, but you might want to go to a pen show where you can sit and test with the nibmeister there.

[Silverbreeze]

If you are new to fountain pens go to a show, best way to find out if something odd is happening is to meet experienced people and sit with a nibmeister. Warning once someone like Master Masuyama does an in person personalized grind you will never want a stock nib again

[mhosea]

Your Lamy shouldn't skip just because it is smooth (that isn't a characteristic of a nib being smooth, I think). Perhaps it is a problem with the tines or something else. I'm sure others will answer and give you some ideas.


It happens. See "Myth #2" on this page.

http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/ttp/steel.htm

Worst case, though, is a touch of "baby's bottom", which can generate skips after pausing as the ink recedes a bit from the tip. Now that would require a light regrind/reshape of the tipping by somebody who knows what to fix and how to fix it.

[dannzeman]

I think everyone sort of has a little different definition of smooth, texture, tooth, etc. I would say "scratchy" is at the other end of the spectrum from "smooth" and that "tooth" would fall somewhere in between, but closer to "scratchy." I like to think of a nib with texture as similar to writing with a pencil. I don't think there's really a right or wrong here, you just need to communicate exactly what you feel or want from a nib.

For some users, a nib can be too smooth and make one feel like they have less control over the pen. If your 2000 is skipping, it could be due to Lamy trying to make the nib too smooth and giving the nib what's called a "baby's bottom." Or, it could be due to other reasons.

Whatever the reason is, a nib meister shouldn't have a problem adjusting it. I offer this service and if the Vista you have writes to your preference you could send it along and I could match the feel of the 2000 to it.

If you're interested in the details of my services please feel free to PM me at your convenience.

[Scrawler]

A pen can definitely be too smooth for me. I used an Aikin Lambert that had been smoothed by long term use. It was stubbish as well, and was just too smooth. I felt like I had no control. I like a little feedback from the nib. A little resistance.

[Laura N]

Hi, JHanna,

Your question is a great one. Some people prefer smoothness, and others like a bit of toothiness (or feedback). But remember that papers can have this quality as well. Even with your Lamy 2000, you may feel that a paper like that in the Banditapple Carnet notebooks gives you some feedback, while Clairfontaine or Rhodia paper generally won't...

This is an excellent point. I will add that the ink you use plays a role as well. Some inks are very "wet" and some are "dry," and that can affect the feel of the writing experience, too. So consider that you have a three factors in play: nib, ink and paper. It's often a matter of finding the right combination for each pen.

It's possible that the Lamy 2000 nib may have an issue. But note that it could be other things as well. It may be that you are holding the pen in a way that's not ideal for the nib, and that the Safari is more forgiving. There are other differences, too. A Lamy 2000 has a wetter ink flow than a Lamy Safari. And the Lamy 2000 nib is bouncier than the Safari nib. You might just need more time to get used to the different nib.

Since you were smart enough to buy the Lamy 2000 in person, perhaps you could bring it back to the store and tell them what's happening. Or call them and talk it over. If you still have the problem, you can send it back to Lamy for service. Still, I wouldn't assume it needs service or adjustment without some more time and experimentation.

As to your underlying question, I personally prefer my nibs to have a bit of tooth. And I also like a dry ink for the same reason. Probably because I tend to write very quickly. I have had nibs that were too smooth for me, and I had them adjusted, or did it myself. I don't usually get skipping with an overly smooth nib, but more like a slipperiness, like driving a car on ice. But I suppose the effect on one's writing could be the same.

[Lady Onogaro]

Your Lamy shouldn't skip just because it is smooth (that isn't a characteristic of a nib being smooth, I think). Perhaps it is a problem with the tines or something else. I'm sure others will answer and give you some ideas.


It happens. See "Myth #2" on this page.

http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/ttp/steel.htm

Worst case, though, is a touch of "baby's bottom", which can generate skips after pausing as the ink recedes a bit from the tip. Now that would require a light regrind/reshape of the tipping by somebody who knows what to fix and how to fix it.

I defer to Mike's greater knowledge (as I am still in student stage ... :) )

[ac12]

This gets fuzzy and I too get confused.
The feeling you get when you write is as mentioned affected by the pen, the ink, the paper, and the writer.
Change any one variable and the writing experience changes.

I have used paper that I cannot stand writing on with my F nib pens. I can't stand the irritating feeling (vibration) coming up the pen into my hand. Is that scratchy, tooth, feedback ???? All I know is that the feeling coming up my hand was irritating, and it was specific to using the pen/ink on that one specific paper. Change to other papers, and the pen/ink combo were just fine. Or use a wider M nib and the paper is OK to write on.

Personally I like a SMOOTH writing pen. The less friction and vibration I feel coming back up the pen the better. Part of this comes from using a XF or F nib pen, where for me, if the writing is not smooth, the tip can be literally scratching the paper. And that upsets the flow of my writing, especially if the tip snags on the paper. And back to the example above, sometimes the feeling of the vibration coming back up the pen is just plain irritating to my hand.

About your Lamy 2000. If you have a Fine nib, you could be simply having trouble keeping on the sweet spot of the nib. I have a Lamy 2000, and if I am not right on the sweet spot, the nib will start to skip or stop writing completely. Because the tip is so small, it is fairly easy to rotate the pen and be off the sweet spot. I also have this problem with my Parker 51, and the cure is the same, rotate the pen to put the sweet spot of the tip back onto the paper. This seems to be a common problem that I have with hooded nibs, where there is little visual clues of the nib, because the nib is hidden inside the hood. I do NOT have this problem with my pens with open nibs, where it is easy to see the nib and note its rotational position in your hand.

[AndyT]

I don't care for too smooth a writing feel, so will tend towards a combination of smooth nib / textured paper / free flowing ink, or (better for me) "rough" nib / smooth paper / dry ink. The point being that you can alter the writing characteristics of a pen by changing the other variables. A nib which skips on Clairefontaine may well behave impeccably on Conqueror wove, for instance.

As Mike says, baby's bottom is an absolute curse, and in my opinion it usually stems from a crude attempt to give a glassy smooth feel. There's nothing wrong with highly polished nibs per se, but when it's done badly the remedial work is a pain in the neck - much worse than smoothing out a toothy nib.

In the case of your Lamy 2000, I'd suggest experimenting with a few different papers and inks before doing anything about the pen. Switching to Pelikan 4001 ink might make a big difference on its own, come to think of it.