Question/Debate Steel/Titanium/Gold

[Silverbreeze]

I send a request into the ether. For the Learned minds of Nibs and Pens to help me understand

I understand the following:


All factory Nibs are tipped with metal or ceramic something very hard
Modern Steel Nibs can be very good or pretty bad depending on any number of factors
Gold nibs are usually tipped just like Steel
With Gold you are paying for the springiness and the fact that it is gold
Titanium is a very hard metal that also has a bit of spring to it
The Price List of Nibs as a rule of thumb is : Steel is included in the price of the pen, Gold is between base + $125 and base +300 depending on Make of the pen.


Now we come to the part that confused me. TI is supposed to be more affordable answer to gold nibs. If that is so why do I feel like it is just an excuse to lift the Gold permium to double the cost of the pen

[DrChumley]

With the overall prices of gold going so high over the last several years, I suspect the gold premium probably would have gone up anyway.

I would really like to try a titanium nib. The only ones I know of off the top of my head are the Stipula T-Flex nibs. Do other manufacturers use them regularly?

Oh, and don't forget Palladium! Visconti's using that almost exclusively instead of gold these days it seems like.

[Silverbreeze]

With the overall prices of gold going so high over the last several years, I suspect the gold premium probably would have gone up anyway.

I would really like to try a titanium nib. The only ones I know of off the top of my head are the Stipula T-Flex nibs. Do other manufacturers use them regularly?

Oh, and don't forget Palladium! Visconti's using that almost exclusively instead of gold these days it seems like.

The Earl II is what prompted my post actually

[mhosea]

I tried a titanium nib once. Once. I was a newbie to expensive fountain pens at the time, so possibly my impressions can be discounted, but it felt cheap somehow. I walked out that day with a Parker Premier (18K). I still love the nib on that pen.

I think, as Richard Binder says here

http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/ttp/materials.htm

it is a "trendy" thing rather than an "affordable option". For that matter, the materials cost of the gold part of a gold nib is around the street price for a JoWo steel nib. Probably there is extra manual attention that must be paid for, and there is often some kind of plating that must be done properly. On the whole, I'd say gold nibs look a lot better than steel nibs for whatever reasons, but the extra paid for gold nibs is generally too much, IMHO. It's not that I don't pay it. Sometimes I do, but it's premium for fashion value all around, if you ask me.

[jar]

What a nib is made from is far less important than how well it is made.

[ardgedee]

Titanium nibs are also expensive because in addition to the raw material cost, Ti is more difficult to stamp and machine than most steels. It takes more than replacing a sheet of steel blanks with a sheet of titanium blanks; factory equipment may have to be replaced, and cutting devices like drills and dies are going to wear out more quickly too, adding to the overall expense of manufacture. Also, the result is a metal with a dull grey surface when compared to gold and steel*.

So in addition to the technical reasons Binder provides, a pen manufacturer will have an uphill battle trying to bring Ti nibs mainstream; they cost more to make and don't look as nice.

*(Ti can be anodized. Bright, gaudy colors are possible. Although once you get nib work done -- for example, stubbing a nib -- the anodized surface will be ground off.)

[Jeph]

Most modern gold nibs are not really more springy than steel. You are paying more for the word Gold than anything else.
The alloying metals and geometry will have more to do with flex than the base metal.
Gold nibs can be nails and steel nibs can be wet noodles.
I think that most all tipped nibs are tipped with iridium, or something so close that there is no difference.

For me, the real value in gold is that you can't polish off the gold color.

I think that Jar has nailed the important part. Frequently gold nibs get a great deal of engineering design, and more personal attention during manufacture. And time is money.

[Silverbreeze]

I work in Tech, and let me tell you Ti is going to get more expensive if the educated guesses are right. Technology uses alot of the rare earth minerals. Unless we start to mine asteroids we will run out faster then oil. Just by per user device estimates going around.

Follow up or maybe aside :

Does anyone knows if Pd (Palladium) is easier to work then Ti. Is it closer in softness class to Gold. Is it less rare then Gold? I am not sure I understand why Pd was started to be used, other then its pretty like platinum

[Jeph]

Palladium is a noble metal meaning high corrosion resistance and it is cheaper than gold or Rhodium and much cheaper than platinum.
And I do not think that Palladium has ever been classed as a strategic metal, where gold and platinum have.
(Precious metal prices always fluctuate.)

[Silverbreeze]

Pd probably doesn't conduct electricity as well as Au and and Pt

[KBeezie]

In regards to #1 there are some modern nibs that are not tipped at all (usually steel nibs).

My only distinguishment between steel and gold was that gold for the most part was not something that could corrode with harsher inks. I wouldn't attribute gold to flex or anything like that, though it does seem easier for a manufacture to make softer nibs when the primary content is gold. And the only other nibs I had the chance to try that weren't just straight gold or steel, were gold with platinum coating which does seem to help the ink flow a bit on finer lined nibs.

:P Never had the luxury of messing with anything made from ceramic, titanium, etc. I just care more if it feels nice, writes nice and won't fall apart on me.

[mhosea]

Most modern gold nibs are not really more springy than steel.

This is roughly true, but I frequently use both #6 jowo steel nibs and the corresponding #6 18K gold nibs. All comparisons are apples-and-oranges in one way or another. Although the shape of these nibs is almost the same, they differ in thickness, so comparing stiffness and springiness cannot really be boiled down to materials alone. Be that as it may, there is a huge difference between these particular steel and 18K gold nibs. The gold nibs deform/flex with far less pressure than the steel, and while this does NOT imply suitability for flexy writing, it does in fact imply that there is a certain cushioned feeling on the page when writing normally, i.e. without flex.

[ardgedee]

I work in Tech, and let me tell you Ti is going to get more expensive if the educated guesses are right. Technology uses alot of the rare earth minerals. Unless we start to mine asteroids we will run out faster then oil. Just by per user device estimates going around.

Titanium is not particularly rare. Tons of it are used every year in manufacturing and repairing jet planes, for example.

Its expense is primarily due to the high costs of refining (high energy, consumes magnesium as part of the process) and increased difficulty in processing.

I read of a new ore refining process that is expected to bring costs down meaningfully (less energy demand, does not require magnesium), but I don't know whether it's practical at commercial scale yet.

[Robert]

Palladium is a noble metal meaning high corrosion resistance and it is cheaper than gold or Rhodium and much cheaper than platinum.
And I do not think that Palladium has ever been classed as a strategic metal, where gold and platinum have.
(Precious metal prices always fluctuate.)

My Visconti HS with Palladium nib (23K, I think) writes like a dream. A tribute to both the material and the manner in which it was fabricated.

[welch]

Comparing like-to-like, I find that Parker 51 gold nibs are slightly (just slightly) softer than P51 octanium (= steel to me). The P51 Special nibs -- octanium -- often seem to have more tipping material than the gold nibs on the first-class P51s. Someone with experience has heard that Parker put more tipping on the 51 Special nibs to compensate for having put more effort into smoothing the gold nibs.

The P51 has a stiff nib so there is not much difference in the feel of the nib.

As mentioned above, a nib can be designed to be stiffer or softer. Sailor nibs have a high percentage of gold, but are nails.

It's mostly the design. We write with the tip.

[fountainpenkid]

According to Binder, there is another advantage for gold: due to its properties, it is much easier to re-tip and repair; steel nibs and 18k nibs (according to Binder) apparently are near impossible to re-tip and harder to repair as well. I can't speak for titanium though.

[discopig]

According to Binder, there is another advantage for gold: due to its properties, it is much easier to re-tip and repair; steel nibs and 18k nibs (according to Binder) apparently are near impossible to re-tip and harder to repair as well. I can't speak for titanium though.

That is right. Minuskin and Mottishaw will not retip steel.

[ChrisC]

I thought I would contribute my interesting experience with a 14k gold Visconti nib. It was the small one on a Van Gogh midi. It felt like I thought steel should feel. It had springiness, but felt dead and rigid nevertheless. Strange, because it was smooth, wet, and springy, the qualities many of us look for in a nib.
My TWSBI 580's nib felt more responsive, strangely enough

Also, wet noodle steel nib:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310954357870

[KBeezie]

According to Binder, there is another advantage for gold: due to its properties, it is much easier to re-tip and repair; steel nibs and 18k nibs (according to Binder) apparently are near impossible to re-tip and harder to repair as well. I can't speak for titanium though.

So only 14K gold then? Not 18K or 21K?



Also, wet noodle steel nib:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310954357870

... wow ...

I wonder if gold is just easier to manufacture with certain alloys for flex compared to steel. (though I do know gold does not mean flex necessarily, all my current sheaffer gold nibs are pretty much nails).

[dneal]

According to Binder, there is another advantage for gold: due to its properties, it is much easier to re-tip and repair; steel nibs and 18k nibs (according to Binder) apparently are near impossible to re-tip and harder to repair as well. I can't speak for titanium though.

So only 14K gold then? Not 18K or 21K?

Doesn't make any sense. 14k has more alloy (less gold) than 18 or 21k.

BTW - You've got some serious posting to do on this board. Only 35 posts? pitiful... ;)

[mhosea]

It stands to reason that the lower the melting point of the alloy, the more critical it is that the application of heat be precisely calibrated to the job. The lower the melting point of the metal, the more risky the procedure. I believe all gold nibs can be retipped, just at different levels of risk of damage to the nib.

I'm not sure why it is said that steel nibs can't be retipped. Maybe you need different temperatures or tipping material, but clearly anything that is tipped can be retipped. Whether it makes a damned bit of sense to re-tip a steel nib...and whether a nibmeister wants to bother with the steel if there is anything at all different about the process or materials...these are other questions entirely.

[discopig]

It stands to reason that the lower the melting point of the alloy, the more critical it is that the application of heat be precisely calibrated to the job. The lower the melting point of the metal, the more risky the procedure. I believe all gold nibs can be retipped, just at different levels of risk of damage to the nib.

I'm not sure why it is said that steel nibs can't be retipped. Maybe you need different temperatures or tipping material, but clearly anything that is tipped can be retipped. Whether it makes a damned bit of sense to re-tip a steel nib...and whether a nibmeister wants to bother with the steel if there is anything at all different about the process or materials...these are other questions entirely.

From what I've heard from Minuskin and others, retipping steel is possible, but it needs more expensive equipment and is a lot harder to do. I'm guessing it's something that's not really worth it in most cases since most steel nibs are easily replaceable and retipping them would cost $100+.

[mhosea]

From what I've heard from Minuskin and others, retipping steel is possible, but it needs more expensive equipment and is a lot harder to do. I'm guessing it's something that's not really worth it in most cases since most steel nibs are easily replaceable and retipping them would cost $100+.

I can see that. Costs n-times as much, is more trouble for the re-tipper, and except in rare vintage cases, the resulting nib is still worthless. :)

Some good info here: http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/214276-steel-nib-retipping-who-can-do-it/

[KBeezie]

According to Binder, there is another advantage for gold: due to its properties, it is much easier to re-tip and repair; steel nibs and 18k nibs (according to Binder) apparently are near impossible to re-tip and harder to repair as well. I can't speak for titanium though.

So only 14K gold then? Not 18K or 21K?

Doesn't make any sense. 14k has more alloy (less gold) than 18 or 21k.

BTW - You've got some serious posting to do on this board. Only 35 posts? pitiful... ;)

Thus why I was wondering, because it'd be closer to steel in terms of reason for no re-tipping, hence why I asked.

Regarding post count... still getting used to how FPGeek is laid out, seems a little harder to navigate.


It stands to reason that the lower the melting point of the alloy, the more critical it is that the application of heat be precisely calibrated to the job. The lower the melting point of the metal, the more risky the procedure. I believe all gold nibs can be retipped, just at different levels of risk of damage to the nib.

I'm not sure why it is said that steel nibs can't be retipped. Maybe you need different temperatures or tipping material, but clearly anything that is tipped can be retipped. Whether it makes a damned bit of sense to re-tip a steel nib...and whether a nibmeister wants to bother with the steel if there is anything at all different about the process or materials...these are other questions entirely.


Maybe it's at a point that it's harder to bond with and is more likely that the tipping will just come off if not done just right.

[HughC]

Worth watching


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaDeSK208sM&feature=player_detailpage

Regards
Hugh

[raging.dragon]

Gold nibs are almost always tipped, as Gold is both expensive and soft (thus an untipped Gold nib would wear out quickly). Most high quality Steel nibs are tipped; however, steel is harder and some Steel italic nibs are untipped. Cheap steel nibs may tipped, may have a hard alloy tip, or may have a tip formed by folding over the Steel. Every Titanium nib I've seen has had a hard alloy tip.

The main selling feature of Titanium nibs is their flexibility - of all Bock made nibs the Titanium ones are closest to vintage flex or semi flex nibs. It isn't dicussed much, but Titanium is also more corrosion resistant than Stainless Steel and 14k or 18k Gold alloys.


With the overall prices of gold going so high over the last several years, I suspect the gold premium probably would have gone up anyway.

I would really like to try a titanium nib. The only ones I know of off the top of my head are the Stipula T-Flex nibs. Do other manufacturers use them regularly?

Oh, and don't forget Palladium! Visconti's using that almost exclusively instead of gold these days it seems like.

The Delta Titanio pens have Titanium nibs. Some OMAS pens have had Titanium nibs. Conid offer a choice of Steel, Titanium or Gold nibs on most of their pens.

[raging.dragon]

Most modern gold nibs are not really more springy than steel. You are paying more for the word Gold than anything else.
The alloying metals and geometry will have more to do with flex than the base metal.
Gold nibs can be nails and steel nibs can be wet noodles.
I think that most all tipped nibs are tipped with iridium, or something so close that there is no difference.

For me, the real value in gold is that you can't polish off the gold color.

I think that Jar has nailed the important part. Frequently gold nibs get a great deal of engineering design, and more personal attention during manufacture. And time is money.

Modern tipping materials are usually Platinum-Ruthenium alloys or Tungsten alloyed with various platinum group metals.

Prior to WWII natural Iridium-Osmium was commonly used, these are no longer used because Iridium and Osmium a very difficult to separate and Osmium Oxide is highly toxic. The toxicity isn't an issue when using a pen, but was a problem for factory craftsmen who ground nibs and risked inhaling traces of Iridium-Osmium dust. Additionally manufactured alloys have more consistent properties than natural Iridium-Osmium.

[raging.dragon]

I work in Tech, and let me tell you Ti is going to get more expensive if the educated guesses are right. Technology uses alot of the rare earth minerals. Unless we start to mine asteroids we will run out faster then oil. Just by per user device estimates going around.

Follow up or maybe aside :

Does anyone knows if Pd (Palladium) is easier to work then Ti. Is it closer in softness class to Gold. Is it less rare then Gold? I am not sure I understand why Pd was started to be used, other then its pretty like platinum

Titanium is a transition metal, not a rare earth, and is plentiful in the Earth's crust as Titanium Dioxide (which is also the cheapest and most common pigment in white paint). Titanium is expensive because it is difficult and expensive to separate Titanium from Titanium Dioxide and because Titanium is a difficult metal to work with.

I believe the metal we're in danger of running out of is Indium, which is used in LCD panels.

[raging.dragon]

According to Binder, there is another advantage for gold: due to its properties, it is much easier to re-tip and repair; steel nibs and 18k nibs (according to Binder) apparently are near impossible to re-tip and harder to repair as well. I can't speak for titanium though.

That is right. Minuskin and Mottishaw will not retip steel.



It stands to reason that the lower the melting point of the alloy, the more critical it is that the application of heat be precisely calibrated to the job. The lower the melting point of the metal, the more risky the procedure. I believe all gold nibs can be retipped, just at different levels of risk of damage to the nib.

I'm not sure why it is said that steel nibs can't be retipped. Maybe you need different temperatures or tipping material, but clearly anything that is tipped can be retipped. Whether it makes a damned bit of sense to re-tip a steel nib...and whether a nibmeister wants to bother with the steel if there is anything at all different about the process or materials...these are other questions entirely.

From what I've heard from Minuskin and others, retipping steel is possible, but it needs more expensive equipment and is a lot harder to do. I'm guessing it's something that's not really worth it in most cases since most steel nibs are easily replaceable and retipping them would cost $100+.

I believe there would be several difficulties in welding platinum group tipping material to Steel, and welding Titanium would be even more difficult:


Welding Steel or Titanium requires higher temperatures than welding Gold
Welding Stainless Steel often requires an inert gas atmosphere, welding Titanium always requires an inert gas atmosphere (and a more expensive inert gas too)
Platinum group metals may bond to Gold more readily than Steel or Titanium

[pajaro]

I have many steel and gold plated nibs in pens. They write as well as any. With careful smoothing they can go from scratchy to divinely smooth. Usually I prefer gold, though, because I do. Just that. I like the look of it. It's not the el-cheapo model.

[paultyler_82]

I really wonder why we don't see more Palladium nibs these days... Sheaffers' old Palladium Silver nibs were excellent, especially for being the low tier offering.

[Marsilius]

I have a Ti nib on my Fountainbel pen, and have tried one on an Omas. It feels smooth and easy. The minuses are that there is little sense of resistance, and, while the nib does flex, it doesn't spread out like an old flex nib as much as it flexes back. I like it, but it is not the same as a flex nib. I enjoy using it, but I can see why someone would make another choice.
Best,
Mars