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View Full Version : 1950s Wearever Chewed Up Barrel Restoration



RayCornett
June 24th, 2014, 10:59 PM
The images aren't up the par but I am not having memory card issues and sending them in to Lexar for replacement. So, these are all I have for now but you can see the difference in the before and after. I have yet to do any work on the cap or lever.124171241812419:jaw:

Jon Szanto
June 24th, 2014, 11:06 PM
Well, Ray, props to you for such good work! Did you build up with material, or 'pull' it out with heat? I hope you are using this as practice, as this is an awful lot of work for such a blue collar pen!

earthdawn
June 24th, 2014, 11:28 PM
That is some outstanding work Ray !!!

I too am very curious how you did it. Very impressive end result for sure.

Congrats !

RayCornett
June 24th, 2014, 11:29 PM
I work with Sean of Write on Time vintage pen and watch restoration. I am basically the west coast partner. I am not at liberty to tell how this was done as it is a proprietary technique. I know I will catch some hell for that but hey. And yes this is a practice pen I did before doing it on better more expensive pens.

Jon Szanto
June 25th, 2014, 01:44 AM
Poor sportsmanship. http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb204/EnvoyC/emotes/eyebrow.gif

Deb
June 25th, 2014, 01:51 AM
Share the knowledge - the rest of us do!

RuiFromUK
June 25th, 2014, 02:15 AM
Rather disappointing not to know the details.

RayCornett
June 25th, 2014, 04:15 PM
It is not my decision or place to release the information. It is not my own technique. It is one taught to me by someone I work for/with. Should he ever decide to ever tell how it is done that is up to him.

Jon Szanto
June 25th, 2014, 06:39 PM
It is not my decision or place to release the information. It is not my own technique. It is one taught to me by someone I work for/with. Should he ever decide to ever tell how it is done that is up to him.

Then:


Give him a heads-up on how a community feels when this is the approach
Consider not posting stuff that clearly will ellicite curiosity, while also clearly not forthcoming
Think about how elements of this scenario reflect upon you, even though it isn't your decision



Ray, none of this is the end of the world, and there are a lot more important things going on around us, so I doubt any of us are too very far up in arms. That being said, community good will is a precious thing, and your partner might want to consider weighing that against the value of being secretive.

RayCornett
June 25th, 2014, 07:46 PM
I understand what you are saying and he knows. He also posts images on his page and such where he repairs bite marks, cracks in pens, etc. using this technique. I believe he may be on some of these forums or used to be.

Proprietary information for someone in the the small business of repairing pens is pretty understandable to me. I myself have personal experience of having a technique or product I made to do something in a small business I was in where someone found out what it was and ended up making it themselves and marketing it and they had enough money behind them that I as a small business owner with one employee, myself, had no way of legally fighting it because of the legal fees. Proprietary information is something all businesses have. Even the ones who claim they are telling you how everything they do to the pens they restore is done, are not. Believe me.

Look at Amazon.com for instance and their patenting of using a white background and such in product photography. Now they can bust any product photographer who uses a white background. What photographer is making enough money to fight Amazon.com? If someone were to take this proprietary information on how we repair these bite marks and cracks and decide they had the money to patent it and take care of any legal fees to stop anyone else from using the technique but themselves then we would still be in the same boat.

Jon Szanto
June 25th, 2014, 08:44 PM
Thank you, Ray. While I may not agree to any great extent, it is a thoughtful reply, and I can understand your perspective somewhat.

vikramguliya
June 26th, 2014, 12:18 AM
Its really a great and tough work to do. And it has been done with more perfection!1

Deb
June 26th, 2014, 02:57 AM
A technique for removing chew-marks in pens is unlikely to be the foundation of anyone's fortune, and the comparison with Google is a little far-fetched.

What does work for pen restorers is a reputation for good work well done, and good customer relations. Being helpful to others is a part of that.

Sadiq
June 26th, 2014, 02:45 PM
Great work Ray!

I remember reading an article on andersonpens blog (no affiliation) about removing bite marks with careful application of heat...I'm not sure it works for all pen materials tho.

Would've been nice to know your method.

mmahany
June 26th, 2014, 03:24 PM
A technique for removing chew-marks in pens is unlikely to be the foundation of anyone's fortune, and the comparison with Google is a little far-fetched.

What does work for pen restorers is a reputation for good work well done, and good customer relations. Being helpful to others is a part of that.
“Your intellectual property isn’t worth anything so you should share it with us”….that’s essentially what you just said.

I also fail to see how he falls short of your definition of a reputable pen restorer.

Some of you are making fools of yourself. All you’re doing is hindering people from making new posts and attacking someone that took the time to take pictures of a restoration to share with us.

There’s a word for this sort of thing on internet forum….”trolls.”

I’m curious to know why any of you feel entitled to know how the pen was restored?

Jon Szanto
June 26th, 2014, 04:52 PM
“Your intellectual property isn’t worth anything so you should share it with us”….that’s essentially what you just said.

I also fail to see how he falls short of your definition of a reputable pen restorer.

Some of you are making fools of yourself. All you’re doing is hindering people from making new posts and attacking someone that took the time to take pictures of a restoration to share with us.

There’s a word for this sort of thing on internet forum….”trolls.”

I’m curious to know why any of you feel entitled to know how the pen was restored?

I am now going off to a remote location and enter into intense contemplation and meditation. Your severe judgement of me has caused me to question every single moral and ethical stance I've ever taken.















Oh, wait...

tandaina
June 26th, 2014, 05:07 PM
Most of the big pen restorers out there (I'm thinking say Ron Zorn) aren't using secret practices. We don't pay them for their trade secrets but for their depth of experience and expertise in those techniques. Me knowing a technique doesn't mean I would want to attempt it on a valuable pen! And by the same token in such a small tight community keeping secrets that could help the whole community seems just... petty. But it is obviously the choice of any craftsman. However, it does make me far less likely to use that craftsperson because I do see the pen community as just that, and will support those I see as supporting the community as a whole.

The Amazon example is horrible. That's not Amazon being smart or protecting their business, it is patent abuse. People had been photoing products on a white background from before Amazon existed. The fact that they got that patent just shows how deeply broken the American patent system is, and how totally unscrupulous Amazon is to take advantage of that fact. It certainly isn't an example I'd use if I wanted sympathy!

Now, my Grandfather, who invented a golf club head patenting that? That's a small business example and honest use of patent. (Long expired, we don't make anything off it.) ;)

snedwos
June 26th, 2014, 07:59 PM
The Amazon example is horrible. That's not Amazon being smart or protecting their business, it is patent abuse. People had been photoing products on a white background from before Amazon existed. The fact that they got that patent just shows how deeply broken the American patent system is, and how totally unscrupulous Amazon is to take advantage of that fact. It certainly isn't an example I'd use if I wanted sympathy!


That's exactly the point ray was making. He worries that revealing the technique will end up with someone else 'doing an Amazon' on him and his partner. He's painting amazon as the villain, not as someone to emulate.

Jon Szanto
June 26th, 2014, 10:19 PM
That's exactly the point ray was making. He worries that revealing the technique will end up with someone else 'doing an Amazon' on him and his partner. He's painting amazon as the villain, not as someone to emulate.

It is still a vast over-reach. I can't imagine anything so monumental and at the same time so generic in repairing pen plastics that even comes close to the example of "don't you dare shoot a photo against a white background". I think the bigger blunder was simply putting it out there for comment in the first place, knowing that people would be curious and knowing that they would keep it all hush-hush. Ray has certainly been the benefactor of information and other offers here and on other pen fora, and it - as I mentioned - might be time to reconsider the way he posts this kind of material. If they want to be all secret-y, fine, just don't rub it in people's faces.

tandaina
June 26th, 2014, 10:56 PM
That's the thing. The Amazon patent is patently (hah!) ludicrous. It wouldn't hold water in court on a bet. And the idea that someone might come after two small pen restorers over anything, certainly not some technique they came up with is even worse. The pen world just isn't lucrative enough. If we think it is, we're fooling ourselves. That's just a silly excuse with no bearing on an actual likely outcome.

If you want to be secretive, be secretive. But don't go waving something around going "look, look" and then refuse to let people really see. That sort of post belongs purely in the market as advertising under some "Super Secret Bite Mark Removal Service" label.

Jon Szanto
June 26th, 2014, 11:03 PM
The pen world just isn't lucrative enough.

Well, I'm going to be charitable and figure that it isn't just a pen-centric technique, but something applicable to other plastic rehabilitations. Seen in this light, there could be reason to believe that a certain amount of value and market share would be worth protecting. I don't know that is the case, but - as you say - it might be better to be quite a bit more circumspect in flying the flag of innovation.

Deb
June 27th, 2014, 03:43 AM
"Your intellectual property isn't worth anything so you should share it with us .... That's essentially what you just said. I also feel to see how he falls short of your definition of a reputable pen restorer"

No, mmahany, that isn't what I said! A restorer's reputation is founded on several things: his or her skills, getting work done in a timely manner, keeping good contact and pricing fairly. A single technique won't do it. I cast no aspersions on the OP's reputation.

"All you're doing is hindering people from making new posts…"

Really? How does that work?

"… And attacking someone that took the time to take pictures of a restoration to share with us."

Not at all! I'm questioning the ethics of someone who is apparently just using the group for free advertising, rather than sharing knowledge as many of us do.

"There is a word for this sort of thing on Internet forum… "trolls.""

I'm no troll and my contributions in this and other pen discussion boards show that quite clearly. You seem to believe that anyone with an opinion different from your own is a troll.

RayCornett
July 3rd, 2014, 02:21 AM
The Amazon example is horrible. That's not Amazon being smart or protecting their business, it is patent abuse. People had been photoing products on a white background from before Amazon existed. The fact that they got that patent just shows how deeply broken the American patent system is, and how totally unscrupulous Amazon is to take advantage of that fact. It certainly isn't an example I'd use if I wanted sympathy!

Now, my Grandfather, who invented a golf club head patenting that? That's a small business example and honest use of patent. (Long expired, we don't make anything off it.) ;)

I agree that what Amazon did was patent abuse. I was not saying they did a good thing. I was saying look at what a company with money can do to effect companies with a lot less money. They know they have so much money no photographer/seller could afford to fight them should Amazon decide to take the person to court for patent infringement. I am not, nor do I ever, seek sympathy for anyone for any reason.
All I meant was the technique used is unique and it is not one that any of you or anyone else has mentioned. My explanation simply meant that it is kept proprietary to avoid someone of an unscrupulous nature patenting it themselves. This is not my decision. I am simply stating fact. I am not at liberty to say with the technique is. It is not my place to do so. Yet I have people coming at me as though it is. There are not many jobs where it is ok to tell the general public proprietary information from your place of employment without getting fired. This is no different.

My comment from a previous post still stands. I know for a fact, from doing pen restoration myself, that those you think are sharing every process they use on your pens, every thing they use, etc.......are most definitely not. I have seen some of them list step by step information on things and they are leaving things out even if it is a minor thing it can be something that if you skip it, you could mess up your own pen if you decide to do it according to their step by step method. Why won't I tell everyone what the missing steps are? Because many of them are proprietary and not up to me to divulge and just because some other business may do so does not make it ok for me to do so. All businesses have their private information.

So, if you base who you send your pens to by if they tell you everything about how they fixed your pen then you may as well do your own because none of them are telling you everything like you believe they are.

RayCornett
July 3rd, 2014, 02:24 AM
Not at all! I'm questioning the ethics of someone who is apparently just using the group for free advertising, rather than sharing knowledge as many of us do.

Care to show me any advertisement on my part where I said anything resembling "this is a restoration I did. Send me your pens to restore". Mentioning who I work with as to why I can not tell the technique is not an advertisement.

Deb
July 3rd, 2014, 04:09 AM
If it isn't an advertisement, what is it?

RayCornett
July 3rd, 2014, 04:22 AM
If it isn't an advertisement, what is it?

A photo of a pen I did a repair on. Many of us have posted images of pens we have done repairs on. I was just glad to see it come out so well so I posted a picture of the pen, in the forum where you post pen photos. The only reason any business name was mentioned was because I felt it should be known why I can not tell the technique which is because it is not my place to do so and if anyone has any serious issue with it to contact him. Shooting the messenger is no way to handle things.

Sailor Kenshin
July 3rd, 2014, 05:56 AM
Most of the big pen restorers out there (I'm thinking say Ron Zorn) aren't using secret practices. We don't pay them for their trade secrets but for their depth of experience and expertise in those techniques. Me knowing a technique doesn't mean I would want to attempt it on a valuable pen! And by the same token in such a small tight community keeping secrets that could help the whole community seems just... petty. But it is obviously the choice of any craftsman. However, it does make me far less likely to use that craftsperson because I do see the pen community as just that, and will support those I see as supporting the community as a whole.

The Amazon example is horrible. That's not Amazon being smart or protecting their business, it is patent abuse. People had been photoing products on a white background from before Amazon existed. The fact that they got that patent just shows how deeply broken the American patent system is, and how totally unscrupulous Amazon is to take advantage of that fact. It certainly isn't an example I'd use if I wanted sympathy!

Now, my Grandfather, who invented a golf club head patenting that? That's a small business example and honest use of patent. (Long expired, we don't make anything off it.) ;)


If the Amazon thing is even true....

Sadiq
July 3rd, 2014, 06:45 AM
If it isn't an advertisement, what is it?

A photo of a pen I did a repair on. Many of us have posted images of pens we have done repairs on. I was just glad to see it come out so well so I posted a picture of the pen, in the forum where you post pen photos. The only reason any business name was mentioned was because I felt it should be known why I can not tell the technique which is because it is not my place to do so and if anyone has any serious issue with it to contact him. Shooting the messenger is no way to handle things.

I guess people's issues with the technique would be valid if you posted this in the Repair Forum.....again, great work!

RayCornett
July 3rd, 2014, 02:33 PM
Most of the big pen restorers out there (I'm thinking say Ron Zorn) aren't using secret practices. We don't pay them for their trade secrets but for their depth of experience and expertise in those techniques. Me knowing a technique doesn't mean I would want to attempt it on a valuable pen! And by the same token in such a small tight community keeping secrets that could help the whole community seems just... petty. But it is obviously the choice of any craftsman. However, it does make me far less likely to use that craftsperson because I do see the pen community as just that, and will support those I see as supporting the community as a whole.

The Amazon example is horrible. That's not Amazon being smart or protecting their business, it is patent abuse. People had been photoing products on a white background from before Amazon existed. The fact that they got that patent just shows how deeply broken the American patent system is, and how totally unscrupulous Amazon is to take advantage of that fact. It certainly isn't an example I'd use if I wanted sympathy!

Now, my Grandfather, who invented a golf club head patenting that? That's a small business example and honest use of patent. (Long expired, we don't make anything off it.) ;)


If the Amazon thing is even true....
Oh it is true and various websites are already scolding people for product photography with white backgrounds and such just in case it was shot using their patented method. Facebook has done this to me and a couple others I know already because if they don't they, too, could get in trouble, for allowing their members to infringe on a patented method.

Jon Szanto
July 3rd, 2014, 04:54 PM
My comment from a previous post still stands. I know for a fact, from doing pen restoration myself, that those you think are sharing every process they use on your pens, every thing they use, etc.......are most definitely not. I have seen some of them list step by step information on things and they are leaving things out even if it is a minor thing it can be something that if you skip it, you could mess up your own pen if you decide to do it according to their step by step method. Why won't I tell everyone what the missing steps are? Because many of them are proprietary and not up to me to divulge and just because some other business may do so does not make it ok for me to do so. All businesses have their private information.

So, if you base who you send your pens to by if they tell you everything about how they fixed your pen then you may as well do your own because none of them are telling you everything like you believe they are.

Ray, I don't know you, I only know the posts you make on the forums. Our interaction has consisted of dialog, occasional suggestions and critiques, and at least one offer of assistance from me to you. So I have no idea what kind of person you are, and (essentially) no idea what kind of businessperson you are.

I will say this, though, regarding the above quote: you certainly aren't doing yourself a favor, or the person you work with, by casting aspersions on other people in the business and attempting to deflect the focus away from your actions. You ought to, at some point, look at the manner with which you are interacting with the community from which you would most significantly derive clients. I, for one, do not like people speaking ill of others in their own niche.

Sometimes, the less said, the better. You opened Pandora's Box by piquing interest, and here we are today.

Hawk
July 4th, 2014, 11:23 AM
Ray,
I am an engineer and love to tinker starting as a child so your post interested me a lot. As much as I would like to know more about the technique(s), I respect the craftsmanship and not disclosing how the work was performed. The auto racing world is a tight knit, small community and they, for sure, keep their 'secrets' from others. I doubt that they spill their secrets even though they 'have a beer together' after the race. My thoughts....

Jon Szanto
July 4th, 2014, 12:19 PM
To compare the microscopic niche of fountain pen repair to the world of multi-million dollar, competitive auto racing is a bit of a stretch.

Hawk
July 4th, 2014, 12:50 PM
There are lower budget racers out there, the ones that have regular jobs that put food on the table and 'belly up to the bar afterwards'. I didn't make myself clear, I wasn't referring to NASCAR and the likes even though it applies.

Jon Szanto
July 4th, 2014, 01:32 PM
Thanks, Hawk - scaling it down certainly is appropriate! I think a bigger distinction is still the concept of competition, especially rewarded competition. Sure, one can stretch the analogy to say that one is 'competing' for business that those special sauce items will cause you to 'win', but it still is a stretch.

But worth considering.

Hawk
July 4th, 2014, 02:06 PM
I'm sure neither viewpoint will switch too many readers from changing their opinion on the subject matter. The beauty of the discussion is to learn of other views, consider them and have friendly discussion. 'Agree to disagree' is always good. I see it quite a bit of the time on this forum site, that is why I keep coming back. I may lurk more than contribute because that is my nature. Also, the more time I spend on the forum, the more fountain pens I want; the limiting factor is lack of money. Oh well, I digress....

RayCornett
July 4th, 2014, 06:46 PM
I wasn't comparing the two industries at all(amazon vs FP) which everyone has seemed to misunderstand :) But we all have our opinions and reasons for things. I think I am done beating the dead horse, lol.

serpent
July 13th, 2014, 02:19 PM
I would think that anyone reputable in the business of restoring pens can remove bite marks from the barrel of a pen. I could understand the secrecy of your method if your business relied on other vendors using you solely for this secret. if not I would have to agree with others here that this post is nothing more than a free plug for the betterment of your business. Any FP hobbyist would have been proud to reveal their method.
As far as the comparison to Amazon's patent of white box shooting, one should read up on what they were granted a patent to. They own a "Studio Arrangement" patent. Shoot a pic with one backlight, side light, & flash from front and you are not infringing on their patent. Hence the reason they have not trolled and brought any lawsuits against anyone.