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View Full Version : My 1st Touchdown White Dot Restoration.



KBeezie
July 24th, 2014, 03:08 PM
Not the first I've had restored, but the first I restored and polished myself.

Once disassembled was pretty clear it needed a new sac (hard as a rock, but least not in pieces), and a new o-ring.

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/touchdown_wd/prework_disassembled.jpg

Cleaned and Polished up the pen while I was waiting for sac and ring to come in (didn't need to order sac cement or silicone grease since I already had it from several lever-filler restores).

Got it all together.

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/touchdown_wd/tdwd_final_1280.jpg

Got it inked up with some Akkerman #6 (Binnehof Blues) and adjusted/aligned and smoothed the nib.

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/touchdown_wd/write_binnehof.jpg

:D So not only my first TD restore, but my first White Dot owned.

I figure this to be a 1950 because the Statesman (Early TD) was only 49-50, and in '49 they serial numbered the nibs.

HughC
July 24th, 2014, 03:52 PM
Nice job Karl !! It may or may not be the case with serial numbers as they do appear (rarely) on the next model, the TM TD. Also with these it's best if can avoid removing the nib if possible as they where pressure fitted in factory and with the short end in the section it's sometimes difficult to get it as tight as it needs to be to stay in place. Looks like a nice writer too, really very good pens.

Regards
Hugh

KBeezie
July 24th, 2014, 03:56 PM
Nice job Karl !! It may or may not be the case with serial numbers as they do appear (rarely) on the next model, the TM TD. Also with these it's best if can avoid removing the nib if possible as they where pressure fitted in factory and with the short end in the section it's sometimes difficult to get it as tight as it needs to be to stay in place. Looks like a nice writer too, really very good pens.

Regards
Hugh

It's staying in place just fine, it was originally sticking out that far, and I got it back in about the same way. Visually I would have liked it to be in a little further, but it's writing normally, a little pressure does not move it, so seems fine.

Maybe later on I'll tackle a broken Snorkel.

TMac
July 24th, 2014, 05:47 PM
Very nice job. It's very satisfying to be able to fix a vintage pen and restore it to such nice condition.

KBeezie
July 24th, 2014, 06:39 PM
Very nice job. It's very satisfying to be able to fix a vintage pen and restore it to such nice condition.

I've restored a few in the past, most of which didn't need any body work, just simple lever fillers, like a 8-sided green celluloid pendant pen from the 30s, and a few esterbrook J Double Jewels.

The Touchdowns and Snorkels for a while were just slightly more intimidating to me. I certainly wouldn't want to mess with a piston filler or vac filler in terms of repairing a broken one.

Crazyorange
July 24th, 2014, 06:55 PM
Did you find it hard? I'm new to repair and bit worried I'll be beyond my knowledge.

KBeezie
July 24th, 2014, 07:14 PM
Did you find it hard? I'm new to repair and bit worried I'll be beyond my knowledge.

Not really all that difficult, compared to simple lever fillers there's a tiny bit more to deal with like the sac protector, plunger and seals. Also just general knowledge of how to work with older materials. In a lot of cases you have to soak the whole pen for a while to loosen up any of the old glues or inks, or you won't be able to easily get the section off the barrel or the nib/feed out of the pen (or risk cracking/breaking).

For this particular touchdown, unscrewing the barrel was easy, it's like they didn't use any thread sealant on it, and the person selling it did ink it briefly, claiming it filled (but only because he was able to suck up a little bit of each even though the sac petrified and he basically exposed the inside to ink). So I was fortunate that it wasn't one of those pens that had ink left in it for years which often cause the sac and ink to be all loose inside of the pen needing to be cleaned out.

I remember on an old Esterbrook J Double-J I actually had to soak a barrel several times and use a tweezer to get out pieces of the sac that fell apart inside, then clean out the back again once it was emptied, and had to remove the surface rust off the j-bar before getting it back in (the J-bars can be easily replaced though, unlike having to find a new plunger or sac protector for a touchdown).

There's also quite a few videos out there, a Snorkel Repair video is roughly the same thing, except the snorkel is a little more involved when it comes to the springs and snorkel tube and how you get the snorkel tube connected to a new sac (plus making sure you align the snorkel correctly to the feed/nib).

I want to find a triumph style nib one and give that a go (thus far I do not own a single snorkel or touchdown with a conical nib).

Edit:

Oh it also helps to know the kind of stuff to stay away from, like cleaning solvents and such (a small bit of diluted vinegar or ammonia may be ok for soaking but I wouldn't put it on and not rinse it off), and avoid anything with petroleum jelly, rather use Silicone Grease, the 90%/10% jars you get at Ace Hardware is ok, it's 90% silicone grease and 10% of a silicone based thickener (so it's not runny like oil), that stuff won't dissolve and eat rubber/plastic like petroleum does.

Crazyorange
July 24th, 2014, 08:06 PM
Thanks. Doesn't sound as intimidating as I thought. Another great next project for me to take on.

gweddig
July 24th, 2014, 11:26 PM
...avoid anything with petroleum jelly, rather use Silicone Grease, the 90%/10% jars you get at Ace Hardware is ok, it's 90% silicone grease and 10% of a silicone based thickener (so it's not runny like oil), that stuff won't dissolve and eat rubber/plastic like petroleum does.

Good work on your Touchdown! They are a fun intermediate pen to fix.
Just a small bone to pick about the silicone grease. The pros usually recommend 100% silicone grease to prevent the introduction of unknown materials to the plastic. The 10% could contain something that may cause problems in the long run. The pure stuff is easily available from several restorers and from most scuba shops.
Look forward to seeing your next repair.
--greg

KBeezie
July 25th, 2014, 12:59 AM
...avoid anything with petroleum jelly, rather use Silicone Grease, the 90%/10% jars you get at Ace Hardware is ok, it's 90% silicone grease and 10% of a silicone based thickener (so it's not runny like oil), that stuff won't dissolve and eat rubber/plastic like petroleum does.

Good work on your Touchdown! They are a fun intermediate pen to fix.
Just a small bone to pick about the silicone grease. The pros usually recommend 100% silicone grease to prevent the introduction of unknown materials to the plastic. The 10% could contain something that may cause problems in the long run. The pure stuff is easily available from several restorers and from most scuba shops.
Look forward to seeing your next repair.
--greg

Yes this was discussed in quite a bit of details over on FPN (the same debate where OcalaFlGuy attacked me for the same reason [but including more derogatory remarks like being an idiot, etc.], until someone else backed me, but then I ended up getting banned from FPN for a month because I disagreed with him and backing my claim, and my mentions of all the correct details were removed by the moderator, but left when someone else said the same thing I did to hide all evidence of a debate), and it's already been determined the 90/10% from places like Ace's Hardware is perfectly fine because the 10% is Silicon dioxide, it acts as a thickener so it's not all runny like oil.

It's 90% is Dimethylpolysiloxane and 10% Silicon dioxide, the same stuff commonly recommended in the Dive shops.

RuiFromUK
July 25th, 2014, 01:35 AM
Another great source for the procedure of how to restore snorkel type pens ir RichardsPens.com:

http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/repair/snorkel_filler.htm

gweddig
July 25th, 2014, 07:18 AM
Karl,
Luckily you won't get banned here for participating in a healthy debate.
Thanks for posting your findings. I'm not a chemist so I cannot comment on the compound. I'll keep using the stuff labeled 100% for the time being.

Respectfully,
--greg

HughC
July 25th, 2014, 04:22 PM
...avoid anything with petroleum jelly, rather use Silicone Grease, the 90%/10% jars you get at Ace Hardware is ok, it's 90% silicone grease and 10% of a silicone based thickener (so it's not runny like oil), that stuff won't dissolve and eat rubber/plastic like petroleum does.

Good work on your Touchdown! They are a fun intermediate pen to fix.
Just a small bone to pick about the silicone grease. The pros usually recommend 100% silicone grease to prevent the introduction of unknown materials to the plastic. The 10% could contain something that may cause problems in the long run. The pure stuff is easily available from several restorers and from most scuba shops.
Look forward to seeing your next repair.
--greg

Yes this was discussed in quite a bit of details over on FPN (the same debate where OcalaFlGuy attacked me for the same reason [but including more derogatory remarks like being an idiot, etc.], until someone else backed me, but then I ended up getting banned from FPN for a month because I disagreed with him and backing my claim, and my mentions of all the correct details were removed by the moderator, but left when someone else said the same thing I did to hide all evidence of a debate), and it's already been determined the 90/10% from places like Ace's Hardware is perfectly fine because the 10% is Silicon dioxide, it acts as a thickener so it's not all runny like oil.

It's 90% is Dimethylpolysiloxane and 10% Silicon dioxide, the same stuff commonly recommended in the Dive shops.

I read that and before "RichardandTracey" decided to "cleanse" it. Definitely you where hard done by considering you did nothing inflammatory or where the aggressor....and correct in what you wrote. Little doubt you'll be a "marked" man on FPN !!

Regards
Hugh

HughC
August 20th, 2014, 05:41 AM
Okay Karl I've read the "twin" post over on FPN (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/270726-my-1st-touchdown-white-dot-restoration/#entry3089515) , as I got a mention lets clear up some "grey" areas.

1. I didn't pick it was a TM TD, the angle of the last photo makes the cap band look a narrow one. The combination of narrow cap band and WD is a sign of a first model TD. Anyway the sac size means it's a TM TD. Noting I do have an example (only one known) of narrow cap band TM plus WD in my collection.

2. I've already addressed the serial number on the nib, early TDs come with and without as do TM TDs although a serial numbered nib is rare.

3. This quote "....the guy I have that does my pen restorations (mostly the sheaffers) is the one that told me that the fat ones ended in 49, and that the TMs were just 50-51 because they were discontinued when the snorkels came out. " is just wrong, no nice way to put it. Both logic and known facts prove this as incorrect.

4. "My guess is that it's possible that the TM TDs were never '52 but were surplus sold from a 50-51 manufacturing"....guessing is all very well...but not when the answer is already known !! In this case your "guess" is wrong. The existence of the metal cap Sovereign that came in Snorkel colours and had the slim pencil is ample evidence of late production ( and may have even run along side the Snorkel) as the fact TM TDs with the Snorkel style raised WD ( as opposed to the molded into the cap standard TM TD white dot) also exist ( in colours not seen in Snorkels so not cap swaps), again rare and I have several examples. Add to this the fact that a lot of parts are the same for both TM TD and Snorkel....

5. "I think in future watermarks and mentions of this particular pen, I'll likely just mark down ~50-51 as that is in my opinion the safest bet of manufacturing." Given this covers 5/8th of the known period I'm not sure it's safer than including 100% of the time frame but statistically most likely.

In summary I see little that's not well known as correct in the advice offered on FPN but a lot wrong with that provided by your restorer. The "Penhero" site is the best on the net and while an excellent resource is not definitive as it doesn't cover the anomalies/oddities that show up.

Regards
Hugh

KBeezie
August 20th, 2014, 09:37 PM
I'm curious about what you said about Raised WD.

The WD on my Statesman is flush with the surface, which was one of the reasons why he figured 1950 as opposed to later. Something about molded/flush being right after the fat, before the TM 'snorkel-style' raised ones as you said. Course Any additional information you have would be appreciated if the manner of the WD has any significance.

Also from Richard Binder's Site ( http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/profiles/touchdown.html )


The White Dot on early plastic-capped Touchdown TM pens is flush with the surface of the cap. On later production (and on all metal caps), the White Dot is a separate part inserted into a hole in the cap, and it protrudes above the cap surface like the head of a tiny thumbtack. This latter configuration continued through to the Snorkel, making it impossible to determine whether a plastic cap with a protruding White Dot came originally from a Touchdown or a Snorkel.


Also would the Sheaffers in Australia differ much from the States?

HughC
August 20th, 2014, 11:42 PM
I'm curious about what you said about Raised WD.

The WD on my Statesman is flush with the surface, which was one of the reasons why he figured 1950 as opposed to later. Something about molded/flush being right after the fat, before the TM 'snorkel-style' raised ones as you said. Course Any additional information you have would be appreciated if the manner of the WD has any significance.

Also from Richard Binder's Site ( http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/profiles/touchdown.html )


The White Dot on early plastic-capped Touchdown TM pens is flush with the surface of the cap. On later production (and on all metal caps), the White Dot is a separate part inserted into a hole in the cap, and it protrudes above the cap surface like the head of a tiny thumbtack. This latter configuration continued through to the Snorkel, making it impossible to determine whether a plastic cap with a protruding White Dot came originally from a Touchdown or a Snorkel.


Also would the Sheaffers in Australia differ much from the States?

Almost universally all TM TD WDs on plastic caps are flush, that several have surfaced in a colour other than black that have raised WD indicates an evolutionary process. Whether those where sold or just prototypes isn't know, suffice to say my observations is that a raised WD is rare on the four colours that where discontinued (the snorkel burgundy is a slightly different colour), nor that common on black either. It should be noted that this statement " making it impossible to determine whether a plastic cap with a protruding White Dot came originally from a Touchdown or a Snorkel" could only applies to black as it continued onto the snorkel and the caps are fully interchangeable (this does not apply to non WD plastic caps which have different clips), suffice to say the statement based on black seems to lack substance. Given I've only seen 2 (a brown and a green) with raised WDs in years of collecting these I'm happy to call them "rare". Binders TM TD article contains several errors making it less reliable than Penhero.

TM TDs where not produced in Australia although the Craftsman and Admiral from that period where.

Regards
Hugh

KBeezie
August 21st, 2014, 01:04 AM
Almost universally all TM TD WDs on plastic caps are flush, that several have surfaced in a colour other than black that have raised WD indicates an evolutionary process. Whether those where sold or just prototypes isn't know, suffice to say my observations is that a raised WD is rare on the four colours that where discontinued (the snorkel burgundy is a slightly different colour), nor that common on black either. It should be noted that this statement " making it impossible to determine whether a plastic cap with a protruding White Dot came originally from a Touchdown or a Snorkel" could only applies to black as it continued onto the snorkel and the caps are fully interchangeable (this does not apply to non WD plastic caps which have different clips), suffice to say the statement based on black seems to lack substance. Given I've only seen 2 (a brown and a green) with raised WDs in years of collecting these I'm happy to call them "rare". Binders TM TD article contains several errors making it less reliable than Penhero.

TM TDs where not produced in Australia although the Craftsman and Admiral from that period where.

Regards
Hugh

If both PenHero and Richard Binder are deemed inaccurate and full of errors in this regards, where can you cite supporting information besides your personal experience?

Right now it's sounding anecdotal.

HughC
August 21st, 2014, 05:41 AM
Have you seen this topic (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/5822-TM-TD-Soverigns-uncataloged) ....

do you see a Pastel Grey or a Pastel Green mentioned as TM TD colours in Binders article ?

...did you notice Binder claims the metal TM TD caps are the same between TM TD and Snorkel? Did you notice the metal cap TM TD Sovereign has a WD ? Have you noticed the Snorkel Sovereign does not have a WD (and a different clip)?
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MSOEz3bzcAeSksLbpLMkdTs3AJhhf-A94XVL0HIkkdY?feat=directlink

...on Sovereigns did you notice that Binder doesn't even mentioned the plastic cap, non WD model that's in the 1951 catalogue....yet mentions an uncatalogued model...

...did you notice any mention of "Lifetime" nibs ? see this (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4389-tm-td-masterpiece/)

...somehow these Imperials (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3906-early-imperial-tds/) never got a mention..

...no mention of this (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4078-interesting-tm-td/) either...

....as to serial numbers (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4094-unusual-tm-td-nib/) on TM TDs...

....do I need to go on ? well lets finish with TM TD demonstrator..



Regards
Hugh

KBeezie
August 21st, 2014, 05:55 AM
I'm a little confused. What does the Sovereign have to do with the Statesman?

HughC
August 21st, 2014, 04:40 PM
I'm a little confused. What does the Sovereign have to do with the Statesman?

Really, you've used information from an unreliable source which I've gone to some lengths to point out and show has errors and omissions ( the purpose of my last post...). I've taken the time and effort to provide you with information for your benefit and you describe it as "anecdotal" (By definition : (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research). Years of collecting TM TDs does give me some knowledge of what's out there.

There are plastic cap TM TDs with raised WDs, I have two and the demonstrator above (rare, possibly only one known) also has a raised WD and these are the only ones I've seen and clearly from the end of TM TD production. The question is where these widely available ? The truth is (based on in the field results) is that they are not, 3 out of 1000's seen confirms this to me. Of the two I have one is a unique cap (on a cap that would not normally carry a WD) and the other on a brown cap which is probably the most likely colour as brown was used in the Snorkel range but only in desk sets (there is one sighting of a standard brown Snorkel I've heard mentioned).

Back to your Statesman, there is no way to determine when it was made. There is ample evidence to say TM TD production continued well into '52 and there is no evidence that raised WDs where used in general production to any degree, the opposite in fact. A flush WD is almost universally found on plastic cap TM TDs and that's backed by 1000's of observations.

Regards
Hugh

Ray-VIgo
September 1st, 2014, 04:49 PM
Persian blue is by far my favorite Touchdown color. I have a Valiant set but not a Statesman. I'm still hunting for a Persian Blue Statesman on Ebay. They come up from time to time, but nothing lately.

They're not all that hard to restore and I actually think they're a better design than the Snorkel.

fountainpen_forlife
September 6th, 2014, 08:20 PM
Nice job! And thanks for posting the pictures...she looks great man! Gives me hope that maybe one day I can take one apart for a repair without worrying about completely destroying it! haha