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FP_GaF
June 18th, 2012, 01:54 AM
I am daring a controversial one here. I find myself aiming for gold when I browse eBay and other sites for potential new items I want to add to my little collection. I know that the nib's body material is not as essential as the nib's tipping material when it comes to writing experience.

And there is more. One of my favourite silky smooth writers has a palladium-silver nib and again that is not the material of the writing tip. And some of my steel-nibbed pens (Visconti and Faber Castell, for instance) are easily as good as most of my gold-nibbed pens. Of course, most (but not all) of the latter were bought used.

So, why am I, or dare I ask "are we", quite often gold-snobs. Does it depend on how and what we write. Or is it prejudice or even superstition?

Please don't hurt me, just askin'. I am really interested because I want to make better decisions in future when I buy my next pens. So, I'd really like to hear your opinion on this.

writingrav
June 18th, 2012, 04:24 AM
As far as I can make out the only advantage to gold is in the flex, for those who can take advantage of it. Otherwise, no excuse for spending the money.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

eriquito
June 18th, 2012, 11:21 AM
If we are not talking about vintage flex (and the only true flex nibs are vintage nibs), then we probably all agree that the writing experience is determined by the nib's tipping and shape, not by the nib's material.

However, knowing this does not negate or override our (my?) emotional desire to have a nib made of precious metal.

Logically, I know that the nib's material is immaterial to the way the nib meets and interacts with paper. Unfortunately, in all debates between logic and emotion, emotion wins.

A gold nib, by simple virtue of being gold, is no better than a steel nib. But then you have to define "better." If having a gold nib on your beautiful pen makes you feel better somehow, ... you get the picture.

ianmedium
June 18th, 2012, 11:32 AM
Eric. I ink that is the best reasoning on the subject I have seen to date!

I have pens with both steel and gold nibs, in truth I can Tell very little difference in terms of material used for writing quality.
But as Eric says, a pen is to a large extent an emotional experience for so many reasons and I must say when using a gold nibbled pen it does feel more special in terms of emotional content and considering my writing is 90% emotional and intuitive it makes sense to go with that which gives me the greatest experience on those terms!

manoeuver
June 18th, 2012, 01:08 PM
yep, people like gold. nothing wrong with that.

FP_GaF
June 18th, 2012, 01:27 PM
I must admit I have never looked at the whole issue from the point of view that you presented, Eric. Logically, choosing gold over steel makes no sense. But choosing a fountain pen over pencils or ballpoint pens or you name it is not a logical decision in the first place. It is an emotional decision: I LIKE fountain pens better. Just as you say ianmedium, writing is very much an emotional act.

So, why then suddenly turn around and be logical about the choice of nib? I like to write with gold nibs. Simple. It is the entire pen that makes me choose it and sometimes the gold nib just has to be part of it. And sometimes steel is perfect, too.

Great! I needn't feel guilty anymore about being a nib-snob. :D

No, seriously, sounds stupid but I haven't been able to make that simple connection. I got caught up in trying to make a logical argument where logic doesn't work. I knew it was worthwhile asking this seemingly difficult question. I learned a lot today. Thank you brothers and sisters in geekdom, thank you!

writingrav
June 18th, 2012, 03:33 PM
I must admit I have never looked at the whole issue from the point of view that you presented, Eric. Logically, choosing gold over steel makes no sense. But choosing a fountain pen over pencils or ballpoint pens or you name it is not a logical decision in the first place. It is an emotional decision: I LIKE fountain pens better. Just as you say ianmedium, writing is very much an emotional act.

So, why then suddenly turn around and be logical about the choice of nib? I like to write with gold nibs. Simple. It is the entire pen that makes me choose it and sometimes the gold nib just has to be part of it. And sometimes steel is perfect, too.

Great! I needn't feel guilty anymore about being a nib-snob. :D

No, seriously, sounds stupid but I haven't been able to make that simple connection. I got caught up in trying to make a logical argument where logic doesn't work. I knew it was worthwhile asking this seemingly difficult question. I learned a lot today. Thank you brothers and sisters in geekdom, thank you!

Well, I don't want to sound overly logical but there is the financial concern. The choice between a steel and a gold nib is prohibitive in terms of acquiring many pens. Without the steel nib option and without knowing that steel nibs functioned just as well as gold, I for one wouldn't own many pens.

duende
June 18th, 2012, 04:47 PM
Gold is better because it well confer upon the scribe the properties of the philosopher's stone, which besides immeasurable riches, includes long and everlasting life. Any questions?:big_boss:

rapid_butterfly
June 18th, 2012, 04:50 PM
I'm just fine with steel, and most of my nibs are steel. OTOH, I use iron gall inks extensively, and suppose that my gold nibs may show less wear over time. we'll see.

Rich L
June 18th, 2012, 05:02 PM
It might seem odd but I equate the time I write with a fountain pen as a time of luxury because when I do write with one, I take my time and enjoy it. Most of the other time I'm writing it is because of necessity and all I care for is flowing ink, ball ink, roller ink, or pencil ink. Later, I'll relax with slow, easy script with a color of my choice easily sliding off the italic tip I prefer. Along with that illusion of luxury goes the gold nib so I prefer that above all other alloys, especially steel, even though I am convinced that a steel nib will write equally, if not better. Don't matter - gold it is. It's appearance, perception, emotion, intrinsic value that contribute to my whole experience. It's ethereal, transcendental, precious ... oh, boy ... going way over the edge here :)


Gold is better because it well confer upon the scribe the properties of the philosopher's stone, which besides immeasurable riches, includes long and everlasting life. Any questions?:big_boss:

That's it!!

Cheers,
Rich

fountainpenkid
June 18th, 2012, 05:24 PM
I am a user that collects. All of my pens have 14k nibs. I have yet to aquire one without a gold nib. I guess I'm brainwashed... I really will pick or not pick a pen depending on wether it has a 14k or steel nib. But then again, as one of you said, writing is a very emotional thing, and I emotionally feel better with a 14k nib, There is not a difference in the world (except for flex), but I will stick to my prejudice ways....exception being the TWSBI Diamond Mini ;)

KrazyIvan
June 18th, 2012, 07:55 PM
I am fine with steel. If I luck out and get a XXK nib I don't complain. It is not necessary for me. The only reason I would need a gold nib is flex and I am proving to myself that I don't need can't use flex pens.

FP_GaF
June 18th, 2012, 11:34 PM
Well, I don't want to sound overly logical but there is the financial concern. The choice between a steel and a gold nib is prohibitive in terms of acquiring many pens. Without the steel nib option and without knowing that steel nibs functioned just as well as gold, I for one wouldn't own many pens.

Yes, you are absolutely right about the economic factor and I am sure nobody is saying that a fountain pen MUST have a precious metal nib to be awesome. It is actually more the other way around: even though we all agree logically that the nib material does largely not affect the writing experience (flex put aside for the moment) for some of us it adds on an irrational level when we choose a specific pen making it a "better" nib on a purely subjective, emotional, personal level that defies reason (or common sense if you want to).

At least that is the way I understand Eric's argument. I think it is fair to say that each one of us within their individual means (which vary largely of course) is spending way to much money on our beloved fountain pens, gold nib or not, and that is surely not logical either (but very understandable). I had not thought about the irrational factor before, that's all.

writingrav
June 19th, 2012, 04:20 AM
Yes, you are absolutely right about the economic factor and I am sure nobody is saying that a fountain pen MUST have a precious metal nib to be awesome. It is actually more the other way around: even though we all agree logically that the nib material does largely not affect the writing experience (flex put aside for the moment) for some of us it adds on an irrational level when we choose a specific pen making it a "better" nib on a purely subjective, emotional, personal level that defies reason (or common sense if you want to).

At least that is the way I understand Eric's argument. I think it is fair to say that each one of us within their individual means (which vary largely of course) we all spend way to much money on our beloved fountain pens, gold nib or not, and that is surely not logical either (but very understandable). I had not thought about the irrational factor before, that's all.

Now that really gave me a new perspective. Of course there is no logic in trying to figure out whether one is "wasting" his/her money on 50 fountain pens with steel nibs versus 2 with gold nibs. I guess that's why we welcome one another to the madness.

FP_GaF
June 19th, 2012, 06:06 AM
Of course there is no logic in trying to figure out whether one is "wasting" his/her money on 50 fountain pens with steel nibs versus 2 with gold nibs.

Well put my friend, well put...



I guess that's why we welcome one another to the madness. :amen:

rbadger332
June 19th, 2012, 11:56 AM
Ahh. The Gold vs Steel aspect. As Eric said, Emotion trumps Logic, every time. My Sonnet, before I dropped it nib first on the floor, had a steel nib that was one of the best nibs I've ever used, regardless of material. That being said, the Palladium nib on my Visconti.....ack, that thing just rules all. :cool: I've had really good examples of both, and horrific examples of both. The main issues are how the user interacts with the pen, and how the nib is ground and shaped at the factory.

SIR
November 5th, 2017, 12:51 PM
It might seem odd but I equate the time I write with a fountain pen as a time of luxury because when I do write with one, I take my time and enjoy it. Most of the other time I'm writing it is because of necessity and all I care for is flowing ink, ball ink, roller ink, or pencil ink. Later, I'll relax with slow, easy script with a color of my choice easily sliding off the italic tip I prefer. Along with that illusion of luxury goes the gold nib so I prefer that above all other alloys, especially steel, even though I am convinced that a steel nib will write equally, if not better. Don't matter - gold it is. It's appearance, perception, emotion, intrinsic value that contribute to my whole experience. It's ethereal, transcendental, precious ... oh, boy ... going way over the edge here :)


Pretty much!

This weeks main correspondence will have been two hand written notes in the post to family and about the same number again or twice in emails. The two hand written notes i'm sure were as much a pleasure for me to write as for the recipients to receive, and required some care and thought in style of writing, both wording and legibility/aesthetics.

Magic is an art in itself... but there are different styles of art, artist, and magic; my Mike Masuyama steel stub writes as well as, well ... anything!

Here's a question - why iridium for tipping, why not chromium?

FredRydr
November 5th, 2017, 12:55 PM
Um, RichL's post is over five years old, and he hasn't been active on Geeks in two years.

SIR
November 5th, 2017, 01:04 PM
Um, RichL's post is over five years old, and he hasn't been active on Geeks in two years.

my reply wasn't a private message to him, so... what?

Marsilius
November 5th, 2017, 01:15 PM
Um, RichL's post is over five years old, and he hasn't been active on Geeks in two years.

my reply wasn't a private message to him, so... what?

And it is just after All Souls' Day, so a little revival of the dead is ok?

carlos.q
November 5th, 2017, 01:32 PM
I guess it’s all in the name of being “One of the Seven” and reviving useful old threads. No?

FredRydr
November 5th, 2017, 01:37 PM
Well, when it comes to necroposting, you must keep expectations in mind for the odds of RichL's response . Which is about nil.

FredRydr
November 5th, 2017, 01:41 PM
I guess it’s all in the name of being “One of the Seven” and reviving useful old threads. No?
Oh, sorry. Please proceed.

My recent purchase of a used Conid Minimalistica with Bock stainless M nib has provided me with one of the most enjoyable nibs I have, and I have plenty of vintage and modern 14c, 14k and 18k to choose from. I believe technologies and metallurgy techniques not available in the golden era of fountain pens have much do with the quality of steel nibs available today. When I compare steel versus gold nibs manufactured 1930-1960 that I've used, I cannot think of any steel nib I liked.

southpaw52
November 5th, 2017, 01:41 PM
Nib material is about your preference. I have both gold and steel nibs(most of my nibs are steel), both have their merit. For myself I like steel nibs, you feel more connected to the paper. Flex nibs are the one I have tried that does not work for me being left handed,

Pterodactylus
November 5th, 2017, 02:31 PM
I guess it’s all in the name of being “One of the Seven” and reviving useful old threads. No?
Oh, sorry. Please proceed.

My recent purchase of a used Conid Minimalistica with Bock stainless M nib has provided me with one of the most enjoyable nibs I have, and I have plenty of vintage and modern 14c, 14k and 18k to choose from. I believe technologies and metallurgy techniques not available in the golden era of fountain pens have much do with the quality of steel nibs available today. When I compare steel versus gold nibs manufactured 1930-1960 that I've used, I cannot think of any steel nib I liked.


Then I think you did not tried the right ones yet.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/732/22788105067_984341f2d3_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/AHGZHe)
Frankenpen_Response_02 (https://flic.kr/p/AHGZHe) by Ptero Pterodactylus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/117783735@N07/), auf Flickr

This vintage Degussa full flex steel nib can compete with any excellent vintage gold full flex nib.

Or try the vintage Pelikan CN steel nibs, or vintage Montblanc steel nibs which are excellent and not uncommon.

None nib attribute is exclusively reserved to a specific nib material (also not flex).
None is per se better than the other, there are always good and bad, gold as well as steel ones.

Gold nibs were easier to manufacture in the beginning, and also later mainly used for the higher quality pens, and therefor more common in vintage pens.
But latest beginning from the 40s (when WW2 forced to use gold alternatives for pens) the manufacturing processes and metallurgy allowed to produce steel nibs in similar quality than gold ones.

That gold helps to make more profit and ease to argue a premium price (because many do not know that the gold material value of a nib is still minor) and many prefer psychologically the precious gold over the ordinary steel is another topic.

Cob
November 5th, 2017, 02:33 PM
When this topic arises, the subject of flex quickly follows. I have used both gold and steel flexible nibs. Regardless of the degree of flex, I think that gold nibs feel nicer. I cannot define this and I daresay in a blind test I might well be deceived. Perhaps it is auto-suggestion, but it seems perfectly reasonable that two very different alloys might have different characteristics. Every pen I use with one exception. is vintage and has a gold nib - to my mind vintage pens are still a bargain; I have this year bought lovely pens with excellent flexible gold nibs for less than £50.

The one modern pen I have is a TWSBI 580 Diamond. It has a steel nib, a broad stub. It is superb. No flex whatsoever, but I don't care - it's a stub. As an aside, the pen is 100% reliable and writes beautifully!

Cob

Chrissy
November 5th, 2017, 03:00 PM
I generally prefer gold nibs. I prefer their feedback tone.

FredRydr
November 5th, 2017, 03:10 PM
...That gold helps to make more profit and ease to argue a premium price (because many do not know that the gold material value of a nib is still minor) and many prefer psychologically the precious gold over the ordinary steel is another topic.
This is true in the used market. In my experience, gold nibs rather than steel-colored alloy nibs in vintage WWII-era German and Italian pens help with sales, regardless of what's correct.

On the other hand, gold nibs in used modern pens has been a problem where the same pens may be had with steel nibs. Buyers seem unwilling to ante-up the additional price for a more expensive gold-nibbed used Edison or Franklin-Christoph pen. I suspect shoppers make price comparisons to used steel-nibbed pens already on the market (or extrapolate from the steel MSRP), and that becomes their top price and gold be damned. Given the quality of modern steel nibs, I can't say I blame them.

Fred

grainweevil
November 6th, 2017, 02:47 AM
No flex whatsoever, but I don't care - it's a stub.

Oh, but springy stubs... Yum.

I've always thought gold nibs have that reputation for lasting, whereas steel, possibly as a hangover from dip nibs, are just a dose of corrosion waiting to happen. Eventually. Now for every corroded steel nib I've found, I've probably had as many gold nibs with cracks, so that perception is probably nonsense. But still, it persists.

As far as writing experience goes, I'm pretty damn sure I couldn't tell the difference between gold and steel in a blind test; there are so many other variables in play. The only nib that maybe I could identify is a titanium one, as that does (sans blindfold) feel like a genuinely different writing experience. A glass nib thrown into this hypothetical blindfold test might be interesting too.

Deb
November 6th, 2017, 04:20 AM
Until fairly recently, the standard of steel offered in pen nibs was quite poor and subject to corrosion, leaving gold as the only choice for a pen that was expected to last. Even low-end, workaday pens like the Conway Stewart Scribes had gold nibs. Now that the steel used is much better the need for gold has diminished. It does help the bottom line; £20-worth of gold is the excuse for £100 increase in price.

Kaputnik
November 6th, 2017, 06:26 AM
To add an indecisive note, we're dealing with fairly small differences, which may be hard to demonstrate objectively, but seem real to people who spend a lot of time writing. Are we kidding ourselves? Maybe we are; it's easy to do, but if so, I'm kidding myself along with everyone else.

Several people have mentioned vintage steel nibs as being of lower quality than modern ones. That might need some qualification. I know I'm not the only one around here who likes Esterbrooks, and their steel nibs could be quite good. My own favorites among them are the 2668, 9668, 9788, and 2442. I'm probably not comparing them with the very best of modern steel nibs, but they can certainly compete with the ones I've found in mid-range modern pens.

That said, my favorite nibs out of all my pens, vintage and modern are gold. I'm not sure if that's entirely because of the metal, although I do like the feeling of softness I get with many of them. But even a couple of gold nibs that are absolute nails, like my one Vacumatic and an old Sheaffer Flat Top, are absolute pleasures to write with.

urushi4u
November 6th, 2017, 06:58 AM
It does help the bottom line; £20-worth of gold is the excuse for £100 increase in price.

^ This. Obviously we are being ripped off.

fountainpenkid
November 6th, 2017, 07:21 AM
I generally prefer gold nibs. I prefer their feedback tone.

What is feedback tone?

urushi4u
November 6th, 2017, 07:29 AM
I generally prefer gold nibs. I prefer their feedback tone.

What is feedback tone?

Like feedback flavour.

fountainpenkid
November 6th, 2017, 07:32 AM
Until fairly recently, the standard of steel offered in pen nibs was quite poor and subject to corrosion, leaving gold as the only choice for a pen that was expected to last. Even low-end, workaday pens like the Conway Stewart Scribes had gold nibs. Now that the steel used is much better the need for gold has diminished. It does help the bottom line; £20-worth of gold is the excuse for £100 increase in price.

Are the best modern steel nibs really equal to gold nibs in corrosion resistance? My hunch is probably yes, with the exception of iron gall inks--in my experience, such inks can gravely corrode stainless steel in a matter of months. I'd be interested to read others' experiences.

Pterodactylus
November 6th, 2017, 07:34 AM
I generally prefer gold nibs. I prefer their feedback tone.

What is feedback tone?

Like feedback flavour.

All quite fussy.....
People talking about feedback should start thinking about the fact, that they are neither writing with gold nor steel, as we are always writing with a iridium alloy blob soldered on the nib material (considering tipped nibs).....

Pterodactylus
November 6th, 2017, 07:39 AM
Until fairly recently, the standard of steel offered in pen nibs was quite poor and subject to corrosion, leaving gold as the only choice for a pen that was expected to last. Even low-end, workaday pens like the Conway Stewart Scribes had gold nibs. Now that the steel used is much better the need for gold has diminished. It does help the bottom line; £20-worth of gold is the excuse for £100 increase in price.

Are the best modern steel nibs really equal to gold nibs in corrosion resistance? My hunch is probably yes, with the exception of iron gall inks--in my experience, such inks can gravely corrode stainless steel in a matter of months. I'd be interested to read others' experiences.

Never experienced any corrosion of (quite modern... last 30 years) steel nibs also not related with using IG Inks.
We are talking about stainless steel, if such a nib would corrode something must be wrong with the steel (most likely cheapest chinese pens) (and it deserve to be destroyed)

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/22402-Am-I-odd-Iron-Gall-Ink?p=223234&viewfull=1#post223234

fountainpenkid
November 6th, 2017, 07:50 AM
Until fairly recently, the standard of steel offered in pen nibs was quite poor and subject to corrosion, leaving gold as the only choice for a pen that was expected to last. Even low-end, workaday pens like the Conway Stewart Scribes had gold nibs. Now that the steel used is much better the need for gold has diminished. It does help the bottom line; £20-worth of gold is the excuse for £100 increase in price.

Are the best modern steel nibs really equal to gold nibs in corrosion resistance? My hunch is probably yes, with the exception of iron gall inks--in my experience, such inks can gravely corrode stainless steel in a matter of months. I'd be interested to read others' experiences.

Never experienced any corrosion of (quite modern... last 30 years) steel nibs also not related with using IG Inks.
We are talking about stainless steel, if such a nib would corrode something must be wrong with the steel (most likely cheapest chinese pens) (and it deserve to be destroyed)

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/22402-Am-I-odd-Iron-Gall-Ink?p=223234&viewfull=1#post223234

My experience with s.s corrosion wasn't with a nib, but rather with the inside of a s.s hood on a Parker "51". I'm now wondering if I should question the stainless steel quality used by the custom maker who made the part.

Chrissy
November 6th, 2017, 08:45 AM
I generally prefer gold nibs. I prefer their feedback tone.

What is feedback tone?
The sound it makes. :) Steel nibs sound different to gold ones when I'm writing.

Pterodactylus
November 6th, 2017, 09:46 AM
I generally prefer gold nibs. I prefer their feedback tone.

What is feedback tone?
The sound it makes. :) Steel nibs sound different to gold ones when I'm writing.

Chrissy, you should consider participating in a talent show.
With something like that:
“I bet that I can identify 100 different fountain pens just by hearing the sound they produce when somebody writes with them. I can even identify the nib material just by the sound” ;) :bump2:

FredRydr
November 6th, 2017, 10:45 AM
I generally prefer gold nibs. I prefer their feedback tone.

What is feedback tone?
The sound it makes. :) Steel nibs sound different to gold ones when I'm writing.

It's the screams they make as they're being dipped into iron gall.

dfo
November 6th, 2017, 10:51 AM
I enjoy both gold and steel nibs for no other reason than they write. Each pen and nib is different with the idiosyncratic (both good and bad) behaviors they bring to the writing table. If I had a vintage Montblanc steel nib, I would probably value it the same as my current 18k Pelikan nibs or the nib on Ptero's pen up there. That said, I would not put iron gall ink in cheap pens (modern or vintage). I only put it in my fancy pens—much to the chagrin of some of the posters on this forum. :)

alias miss ferkit
May 28th, 2018, 10:41 AM
An old thread ... but an evergreen! I'm going to add a question - on the off chance that someone notes it and has a thought.

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't see a reference to gold's 'soft metal' property regarding, not flex, but *wear*. One 'plus' of gold seems to be its willingness to yield to the individual's personal writing style (angle, balance) , ultimately giving a kind of individual wear-form to the nib. How this is a good thing ... I really don't know! But I recall how surprised I was as a kid when I asked if I might try an otherwise friendly teacher's Parker, and was schooled in the taboo against lending a gold nib (lest it be 'reshaped' by another's hand ... and ruined). By the same token, I imagine that this property could lead to over-wear with high-carat nibs. Any thoughts?

Wuddus
May 28th, 2018, 11:22 AM
So if I'm reading this right, the only benefit to gold nibs, is they cost more money, so you can be more smug than someone who has steel nibs. So in other words, it's all about prestige.

The more I read about fountain pens, the more I feel justified in sticking to the sub-£10 purchases.

fountainpenkid
May 28th, 2018, 11:56 AM
So if I'm reading this right, the only benefit to gold nibs, is they cost more money, so you can be more smug than someone who has steel nibs. So in other words, it's all about prestige.

The more I read about fountain pens, the more I feel justified in sticking to the sub-£10 purchases.

Prestige that arises from a greater potential for longevity. If we put aside the contentious issue of steel's greater rust potential, the fact remains that gold nibs are more repairable all-around. They can be brought back from all sorts of damage that would render a steel nib a piece of trash--major tine bending/twisiting, loss of tipping...this gives them a permanence that some perceive as greater quality. While a steel nib can be completely equal in terms of performance, one bad drop could relegate it to the trashbin. At least for me, the knowledge that the 'soul' of my pen might long outlive its body is beautiful and comforting.

Jon Szanto
May 28th, 2018, 12:11 PM
So if I'm reading this right...

You aren't. There is also spotty information scattered in the post. Your summation is a stereotype of reverse "nib elitism". There is a time and place for both steel and gold nibs. A gold nib may not be a necessity, but it can certainly enhance the experience of using a fountain pen. Simply making fun of that shows a lack of understanding.

Jon Szanto
May 28th, 2018, 12:13 PM
The more I read about fountain pens, the more I feel justified in sticking to the sub-£10 purchases.

As this thread seems to indicate, it may be that the reading you are doing is simply supplying confirmation bias rather than actual education.

Wuddus
May 28th, 2018, 01:11 PM
The more I read about fountain pens, the more I feel justified in sticking to the sub-£10 purchases.

As this thread seems to indicate, it may be that the reading you are doing is simply supplying confirmation bias rather than actual education.

Not so, but I do take your point, Jon.

I am on the whole quite content with my cheapos, but I do on occasion hunt around for scraps of info as to what I (just me, not anyone else) would gain from me possibly making a solitary higher end purchase one day. I would only buy one, so therefore I would want to get it right first time. That means taking time to understand what others perceive as benefits from higher end pens, and asking myself if I too would feel the same justification for the increased expenditure. If not, that quality is not worth pursuing. If I'm ever going to spend £150 on a pen, I need to feel that pen is worth (to me) spending 30x more than I currently do. It doesn't matter too me what someone else thinks is worth £150, it's what I think is worth £150 to me. Sometimes that means I'm going to be asking questions, or making assumptions, that others don't like in order to test the waters. This thread makes me think that I wont feel the benefit of a gold nib. It's not reverse snobbery, it's working to avoid spending 30x more on a pen that only feels 50% nicer to me, and then regretting it.

Wuddus
May 28th, 2018, 01:21 PM
So if I'm reading this right, the only benefit to gold nibs, is they cost more money, so you can be more smug than someone who has steel nibs. So in other words, it's all about prestige.

The more I read about fountain pens, the more I feel justified in sticking to the sub-£10 purchases.

Prestige that arises from a greater potential for longevity. If we put aside the contentious issue of steel's greater rust potential, the fact remains that gold nibs are more repairable all-around. They can be brought back from all sorts of damage that would render a steel nib a piece of trash--major tine bending/twisiting, loss of tipping...this gives them a permanence that some perceive as greater quality. While a steel nib can be completely equal in terms of performance, one bad drop could relegate it to the trashbin. At least for me, the knowledge that the 'soul' of my pen might long outlive its body is beautiful and comforting.

Thanks, Will.

Jon Szanto
May 28th, 2018, 01:44 PM
It's not reverse snobbery...

It is when you describe the reasoning of buying a gold nib as "so you can be more smug than someone with a steel nib". So if you want to see just how a totally smug guy feels about nibs, here's why I've purchased a fair number:


for a flexible nib, nothing has yet matched the snap-back quality of gold
for a nib that wants to be used with a strong (IG) ink, I don't have to worry
for a soft nib, I've yet to find a steel nib with the same cushy spring
for many pens a gold nib looks better, and better than gold-toned. Aesthetics are important to some people.
it is a rare, rare day that I can find nibs to compare with the gold nibs from the early part of last century
the notion of spending a fortune is bunk - I just got another lovely Moore 14k Maniflex nib for about $30, wrapped in a pen, of course
they last and in the event of an accident, can be repaired.


I could go on. My pens are probably divided about half and half, maybe a few more steel than gold. It's a silly distinction and classist to insinuate that wanting to include gold nibs among your pen purchases and uses is somehow "smug". It's not the case at all for me, and I certainly don't buy pens to shove in other's faces to belittle them or their pens. I *do* like how many of them look, I like how most all of them perform, and I find the value in the pen very much worthwhile. Pen choices are very individual and the pens that delight me may not delight you. You are welcome to do all the quantification you like, parse it down to percenatages or whatnot. My pen-education has taken nearly 10 years and along the way I've learned the value and enjoyment and admiration of a good gold nib. They add to the experience of my pen use and they please me.

Wuddus
May 28th, 2018, 02:22 PM
Look at all that valuable information that suddenly appeared in this thread, which wasn't there before, and only appeared because someone made a glib remark.

No, I'm not going to apologise :D

Very useful info there, Jon. I think the being repairable would probably be the biggest plus for me out of all your bullet points. Well, at least this far in my journey anyway. I've just ordered a dip pen set which I intend using for a side project, and I'm expecting to get a taste of flexible nib writing with it. All the fountain pens I've used throughout my life have been rigid, so it will be interesting to see how I feel about soft nib writing. Again, another £2 lesson, which all drip feeds into my overall pen appreciation.

Point taken on the $30 catch, but I'm only buying new pens right now, and my mind is blinkered towards stuff that comes with a warranty. I find all the various levers and pistons and bits perishing and resaccing overwhelming and unnecessary (to me). I appreciate others have a great passion for that stuff, and good luck to them, but it's not for me.

Jon Szanto
May 28th, 2018, 02:35 PM
No, I'm not going to apologise :D

Never look back! :D

Hey, I think we're ok talking to each other, and as long as we both keep in mind the vagueness of language, etc, we'll be ok. Just be certain to realize that even if it is an aspect of something that doesn't appeal to you, even if just at the moment, you have to keep an open mind (non-blinkered) at the intrinsic value of that something. I get the sense that you truly regard these items as "tools" and there is not a thing wrong with that - I do the same, with many of my pens. But equally as valid are those pens that not only veer away but completely run to the camp of artistic creation, the pens that primarily want to look good and feel good and give you pleasure not only in use but in the sensory response you get from them, even visually. I don't think you'll be hunting those kind of pens any time soon, if ever, but it is a perfectly good reason to create a pen that is like that and for someone to have one.

As to vintage, grow a pair! You are missing out on great stuff, but that is entirely up to you! :D

penwash
May 28th, 2018, 03:23 PM
Point taken on the $30 catch, but I'm only buying new pens right now, and my mind is blinkered towards stuff that comes with a warranty. I find all the various levers and pistons and bits perishing and resaccing overwhelming and unnecessary (to me). I appreciate others have a great passion for that stuff, and good luck to them, but it's not for me.

You seem to bent on focusing only on the negative aspect of vintage pens.

There is no "levers and pistons and bits perishing and resaccing" that you have to constantly worry about, none of that dramatic stuff, really.

You buy a vintage pen, from a reliable and friendly seller, already restored. Use it for a month. If you don't like it, sell it to someone else with little or no loss (or some profit, depending on the pen and the condition).

Then at that point, you can back your bias against vintage pens with real experience, not just hearsay.

Or you may fall in love and enjoy many vintage pens from here on just like many of us do.

Fair enough?

Wuddus
May 28th, 2018, 03:31 PM
No, I'm not going to apologise :D

Never look back! :D

Hey, I think we're ok talking to each other, and as long as we both keep in mind the vagueness of language, etc, we'll be ok. Just be certain to realize that even if it is an aspect of something that doesn't appeal to you, even if just at the moment, you have to keep an open mind (non-blinkered) at the intrinsic value of that something. I get the sense that you truly regard these items as "tools" and there is not a thing wrong with that - I do the same, with many of my pens. But equally as valid are those pens that not only veer away but completely run to the camp of artistic creation, the pens that primarily want to look good and feel good and give you pleasure not only in use but in the sensory response you get from them, even visually. I don't think you'll be hunting those kind of pens any time soon, if ever, but it is a perfectly good reason to create a pen that is like that and for someone to have one.

As to vintage, grow a pair! You are missing out on great stuff, but that is entirely up to you! :D

The world of fountain pens is currently a very broad spread. There's the "cheap but functional" at one end, and the "functional art" at the other, with a myriad of different classifications inbetween. I get that.

I get that there's folks who'll "waste" money of things at the other end of the spectrum to me, who in turn wouldn't "waste" money on the stuff I buy. We all value things differently. That broad spread will also serve well to catch "new" users like me, and keep drawing people in to the scene.

As to keeping an open mind to intrinsic value, that's tricky to respond to. Sometimes I'll see a pen, think "ooh, that's nice - I'd give £40 for that", and the price is £650. I don't think I'll ever see the value in stuff like that. I do however appreciate that others do. We're all wired up differently.

That said, I'm not entirely closed minded to the thought of paying significantly more than my usual £10 limit on "the right pen". But what is right for me? What do I appreciate, and what do I think is just pretentious twaddle? I don't know yet. The dumb questions, glib comments, snarky asides, misguided perspectives, that I WILL post in the future, will be as much an exploration of my own values as the values of the pen.

As to just valuing stuff as tools - yes, for the most part that is a fair assumption. I am someone whose head gets in the way of the heart. I have found that emotional decisions generally don't play out well for me, and buying something cos it looks pretty, usually turns to buyers remorse damn quick. However, I do own some stuff that cost a small fortune that I'd never want to be without, because it's just perfect for me. Finding that in a pen, just like it did with the other stuff, will take time, frustration, and possibly ruffle a few feathers along the way. Whatever that item is might cost £2 or £200, or I might never make that connection with a pen. Time will tell.

Empty_of_Clouds
May 28th, 2018, 03:43 PM
It's not reverse snobbery...

It is when you describe the reasoning of buying a gold nib as "so you can be more smug than someone with a steel nib". So if you want to see just how a totally smug guy feels about nibs, here's why I've purchased a fair number:


for a flexible nib, nothing has yet matched the snap-back quality of gold
Yet! I've got a Pelikan 100N that has superb snap-back. Steel nib. They do exist!
for a nib that wants to be used with a strong (IG) ink, I don't have to worry
Maybe. I haven't had any problems with modern steel nibs and strong IG inks, but gold certainly removes the doubt.
for a soft nib, I've yet to find a steel nib with the same cushy spring
They're out there, but you're more likely to find a springy gold nib.
for many pens a gold nib looks better, and better than gold-toned. Aesthetics are important to some people.
de gustibus non disputandum
it is a rare, rare day that I can find nibs to compare with the gold nibs from the early part of last century
There are good and bad nibs from every generation, at least from what I've seen.
the notion of spending a fortune is bunk - I just got another lovely Moore 14k Maniflex nib for about $30, wrapped in a pen, of course
Prices range depending on cachet and trimmings. True, a good gold nib can be had for little money. You can also buy an MB wartime steel nibbed pen for a small fortune.
they last and in the event of an accident, can be repaired.
Good point, so to speak. Not that I've ever had occasion to have any nibs repaired.


I could go on. My pens are probably divided about half and half, maybe a few more steel than gold. It's a silly distinction and classist to insinuate that wanting to include gold nibs among your pen purchases and uses is somehow "smug". It's not the case at all for me, and I certainly don't buy pens to shove in other's faces to belittle them or their pens. I *do* like how many of them look, I like how most all of them perform, and I find the value in the pen very much worthwhile. Pen choices are very individual and the pens that delight me may not delight you. You are welcome to do all the quantification you like, parse it down to percenatages or whatnot. My pen-education has taken nearly 10 years and along the way I've learned the value and enjoyment and admiration of a good gold nib. They add to the experience of my pen use and they please me.



My purpose here is not to rag on Mr Szanto. The list is merely a convenient way of illustrating that there exists a spectrum for each and all factors associated with fountain pens. So, I don't really support sterotypes in this matter. Hope that makes sense.

edit numerous times for speeling. Gods! my keyboard-fu sucks today.

Wuddus
May 28th, 2018, 03:44 PM
Point taken on the $30 catch, but I'm only buying new pens right now, and my mind is blinkered towards stuff that comes with a warranty. I find all the various levers and pistons and bits perishing and resaccing overwhelming and unnecessary (to me). I appreciate others have a great passion for that stuff, and good luck to them, but it's not for me.

You seem to bent on focusing only on the negative aspect of vintage pens.

There is no "levers and pistons and bits perishing and resaccing" that you have to constantly worry about, none of that dramatic stuff, really.

You buy a vintage pen, from a reliable and friendly seller, already restored. Use it for a month. If you don't like it, sell it to someone else with little or no loss (or some profit, depending on the pen and the condition).

Then at that point, you can back your bias against vintage pens with real experience, not just hearsay.

Or you may fall in love and enjoy many vintage pens from here on just like many of us do.

Fair enough?

Lovely idea, but hasn't worked out for me in practice in other walks of life. We all form our biases based on our prior experiences, and buying and trying stuff, and passing it on, and starting again, and learning as I go, is pretty much exactly what I want to avoid.

I've ended up selling stuff and regretting it later when I'd developed the appreciation that was missing at the time, bought stuff that I can't sell, because I don't have the heart to offload crap on someone else, bought stuff for repairing stuff, spent ages learning how, finished it, and wished I'd never bothered. This is all non-pen related BTW, but to put it in it's simplest form, I don't want to be exploring rabbit holes. I don't enjoy it, and it always seems to cost me more than I get from it. If I get something that's got a problem and a warranty - simple - one fixes the other. As to vintage pens, I've been there with other stuff, several times. I'm not doing it with pens.

Jon Szanto
May 28th, 2018, 05:15 PM
I'm not doing it with pens.

Your loss. The worst part is that by conflating all your bad past experiences in areas that may have nothing to do with the subject at hand, you are overstating the problems, undervaluing the potential upsides, and eventually missing out on some great experiences. You are dabbling in the pen world in such a small way that you'll not ever comprehend how good something could be.

Your loss.

Jon Szanto
May 28th, 2018, 05:22 PM
Hope that makes sense.

Not that much. You pick edge-area examples and poor retorts to a basic principle (yes, sure, you can buy a steel nib MB for a ton of money, but one of the main canards that some people have is that "oh, those gold nibs are soooooooooooo expensive" - not true. Not always, and often not). Some of the other points just stem from the lack of having the experience of a particular thing. In the main, I'll stand by every point I've made.

However, this has all just taken the fun out of things, so I'll let other people pile on, I'm done being a punching bag.

Empty_of_Clouds
May 28th, 2018, 05:58 PM
I guess when you miss the point by such an egregiously wide margin there is not much point in continuing.

Wuddus, a gold nib is not inherently better than a steel nib, despite some of the bullshit you may read that claims otherwise. About the closest thing to a fact you can say is that they are more expensive.

Wuddus
May 28th, 2018, 06:34 PM
I'm not doing it with pens.

Your loss. The worst part is that by conflating all your bad past experiences in areas that may have nothing to do with the subject at hand, you are overstating the problems, undervaluing the potential upsides, and eventually missing out on some great experiences. You are dabbling in the pen world in such a small way that you'll not ever comprehend how good something could be.

Your loss.

Maybe, maybe not. You know far more about vintage pens than I ever will, so I'll defer to your judgement on those matters. There is one thing I have more knowledge about though, and that is me.

What's right for me, is to walk a different path. I'll not be delving deep into the why's and wherefores, but I am having fun, in a way that suits me, in another realm of the vast fountain pen world. In a short space of time, and with very little money or frustration, I have rekindled my interest in fountain pens, and have found three regularly used primary pens, a small array of inks for them, and other stuff to play around with too. I haven't lost, I have gained. I'm still keeping an open mind to possibly buy one premium pen at some point in the future, but have no interest to keep on trying more and more pens, ad infinitum. That brings a lot of happiness to a lot of fountain pen users, but that is not where or how I will gain my enjoyment.

While I understand your good intentions, and your wish to share your passions and enjoyment, that is not the area that interests me. My enjoyment is found in other ways. I do not wish to detract from your hobbies, and wish you happiness in your pursuits. It is only my loss if I walk someone else's path instead of my own. There is plenty of space in this arena for different perspectives, preferences, and different ways of achieving fulfilment without us having to clash about what you or I should do, should like, or should focus our attentions on.

Thank you for your input, Jon, I always appreciate it, but my path leads elsewhere my friend.

Wuddus
May 28th, 2018, 06:38 PM
I guess when you miss the point by such an egregiously wide margin there is not much point in continuing.

Wuddus, a gold nib is not inherently better than a steel nib, despite some of the bullshit you may read that claims otherwise. About the closest thing to a fact you can say is that they are more expensive.

Thanks for your input. I have not (so far) found any aspects of them which will bring me any significant benefit, so I'll continue on my current course.

Thanks again

Medieval
May 28th, 2018, 06:40 PM
I read somewhere of some reply given by a head honcho guy from Sheaffer who said that the only difference between steel and gold nibs are aesthetics and vanity, although some people swear that gold nibs produce a wetter flow.

The corrosive differences between gold and steel are no longer relevant unless you intend to keep your pen for half a century or more.

I'm of the opinion that there is no great qualitative difference between gold and steel nibs because it's mostly about what's in the tipping.

dneal
May 28th, 2018, 08:22 PM
Nice fountain pens are luxury items. There's no utility in the attractive materials used, or the labor required to make them. Bitching about gold nibs is ridiculous. Buy a box of Pilot Varsities if these other aesthetic aspects offend your sensibilities.

stub
May 29th, 2018, 03:20 AM
oof necrobumping.

But since it is bumped:

I have had the experience of trying a pen, the exact same pen with 2 different nibs on many occasion. Often in sample sizes that were quite large. I'll give 2 examples.

Any pen, say a Lamy Studio, with a Steel Lamy LZ50 nib -vs- the same exact pen with the Lamy 14k LZ55 nib. Same pen. Same nib morphology. One steel nib and one gold.

Or, and here again I have not just a single sample but literally dozens of identical pens some with steel nibs and some with gold. The Parker 45.

If you can swap a Lamy studio with a gold LZ55 and a LZ50 steel nib or a Parker 45, similarly and tell me honestly that you sense no difference then I salute you but in general I perceive a difference in both cases. Now it might be down to the care in the finish and the tuning of the nib or some other such but I doubt that accounts for the whole difference. If you think that there is no difference then go rock your steel nibs and enjoy but folks implying that fans of gold nibs are rubes who have convinced themselves of a difference that doesn't exist are kind of bothersome. Whatever. Use what you like. I like gold nibs, I do think they perform and feel different. Done apologizing for it.

(& yeah I do have, use and love many a steel nib too)

FredRydr
May 30th, 2018, 06:58 AM
...Bitching about gold nibs is ridiculous....
Watch it devolve into precious resin.

NibsForScript
May 30th, 2018, 09:39 AM
Aesthetics;
It comes down to the pleasure we get from each pen. It is pure aesthetics which is quite personal. Any particular pen gives different aesthetic pleasure to different people. How it writes, how it feels, how it looks, gives a different pleasure response to each. The one constant, all here like fountain pens. The variety of pens and joy by the users is vast. We all have our likes and dislikes. On the other hand there are many on the forum who have an enormous amount of experience. There is much to learn from these knowledgeable members on here. Each of us has reasons why we like one pens attributes over another. The value of knowledge and experience on this site is quite worthy. 14k vs Steel, each has its' qualities worth noting and enjoying.