Tooth vs. feedback vs scratchie

[sharmon202]

Into this wonderful "hobby" for a year now. Can someone explain, or send me to someone, the difference between tooth, feedback, scratchy and any other adjectives to describe feel of nib on paper?:confused::confused::confused:

Context usually tells me the good or bad but not really what it is, how to decide if you have it.........

Almost all my pens are EF/F, mostly EF. I am learning to write with a 1.1mm thanks to Ana & AZ, they encouraged me that it is possible.

[DrChumley]

I think it probably differs based on the person.

For me, I use "tooth" and "feedback" relatively interchangeably. It has to do with how polished the writing surface is.

Scratchiness, on the other hand, has more to do with hard/sharp corners or edges--often caused by tines being out of alignment or corners on the writing tip caused by the type of grind.

If there's any part of the tip that feels like it "digs" into the paper, I consider that scratchy. Sometimes it's because I've got an italic grind, where the nibmeister has actually ground corners into the nib to help with line variation. Most of the time, though, (since I buy round nibs most of the time) it's caused by one tine being lower than the other, and the inner edge of the tine, which can be sharp from the saw that cuts the nib slit, catching on the paper. If you want to feel real scratchiness, you can almost always rotate the pen 180 degrees and try writing with the top of the nib rather than the bottom. Most manufacturers don't polish the tops of their nibs, and the great majority of them feel scratchy.

OTOH, if there's none of that "digging into the paper" feeling, but you can feel a little bit of the friction between the paper and the nib, then that would be feedback or tooth to me. Even on a round nib, if the nibmeister fails or chooses not to polish the surface of the writing tip, then you can feel a little bit of "slip and stick" of the pen writing on the paper.

These phenomenon can, of course, be impacted by the ink flow as well. If a pen is putting down a wet line, it can put a little bit of a lubricant or cushion between the paper and nib, which will lessen the feel of the feedback or toothiness.

Again, this is how I define the terms, but others may take a different approach.

[Silverbreeze]

Ok let's see
This is how I understand it

EF are usually toothy, which means you can feel the nib grip at the paper giving you feedback through your hand

Scratchy is usually a sign that something is misaligned

A wider nib on smooth paper can be like using marker on glass.

In my opinion Edison nibs are some of the best around. Part of that is high quality control. Lamy, Pilot and TWSBI all have nice nibs on affordable pens. But just don't have the QC Brian Grey exacts for his pens

[mhosea]

The word "tooth" seems a little ill-defined. Generally I take it to mean a hint of unsmoothness, as "al dente" is only a hint of unsoftness (quite different from chewing on dried pasta :)). Scratchy seems pretty obvious--when you write it feels like you are scraping the paper. Feedback means that you can feel the paper as the nib passes over it, but there is no catching at all, no variability to the friction, no sense of scraping. One of those sandpaper covered foam pads on a smooth piece of wood would give "feedback" but would not be "scratchy". Scraping the wood with a sharp piece of tin would be "scratchy".

[00Photo]

Tooth is when you can feel the paper under the nib.

Feedback is when you can feel the paper under the nib and it annoys you.

Scratchy is when the nib attacks the paper with such ferocity that you are inspired to build a time machine, go back in time to when the last guy ruined the nib, snatch it out of his hand, and then slap him so hard he cries like a little girl.

[erpe]

Interesting, seems we are all using our own definitions. I can see how that can be confusing. :)
Feedback is when you can feel the quality of the paper while writing, tooth is when you can feel the paper but the feedback is so sharp that you can not distinguish the papers, scratchy is a matter of misaligned tines, meaning that the tooth is different, sharper in one direction than the other(s). Feedback is ok, tooth is annoying, scratchyness makes a pen useless and needs fixing.

[mhosea]

Of all the terms, "tooth" should be avoided because it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't even make sense, which explains why everybody interprets it in a different way. In contrast, we can differ over whether feedback is annoying or not, but at least it makes literal sense, scratchy, too, obviously.

[sharmon202]

Wow, you win for the funniest reply so far, I have laughed for several minutes. Thanks to all, I now have some guidelines. If I see a nib person at the Dallas Pen show now I may be able to talk a bit more knowledgeable, which may actually help to make myself talk to someone. Thanks to all of you!! Anyone else please feel free to add.


Tooth is when you can feel the paper under the nib.

Feedback is when you can feel the paper under the nib and it annoys you.

Scratchy is when the nib attacks the paper with such ferocity that you are inspired to build a time machine, go back in time to when the last guy ruined the nib, snatch it out of his hand, and then slap him so hard he cries like a little girl.

[ac12]

Sandy
If you are going to a nib meister, you need to be as specific and discriptive as possible about what you like and do not like. Because like here, his definitions may be different. So besides feedback, you could say I feel a slight vibration coming up the pen and I don't like it.
Bring the pen with ink and the paper you use, so the nib meister has the environment that you are referring to, and can better understand where you are coming from.

[Ray-VIgo]

"Tooth" and "feedback" is how the seller will describe the nib to you when you consider buying the pen. "Scratchy" is how it feels after you've bought it and gotten it home.

[johnus]

Aside from feeling the difference, can you actually see it in the written word??

[mhosea]

Aside from feeling the difference, can you actually see it in the written word??

Sometimes, not always. The pen is supposed to work by capillary action, and ideally there will be nothing that makes the nib stand off the paper in any orientation while writing that might interrupt the flow. Scratchiness due to unbalanced tines can result in some artifacts in the writing related to the fact that in some orientations the ink has a hard time reaching the paper because of the misalignment. Writers tend to compensate by supplying more pressure, but there can be a bit of "raggedness" introduced by it. The kind of scratchiness that tends not to show up is pretty common: when the nib is nice and smooth but there is a sharp edge leading into the slit. This sharp edge will scrape the paper when any pressure at all is applied and the stroke is side-to-side, but because the tines are not misaligned, capillary flow will actually be perfect, despite the "feedback".

[johnus]

Thank you for the reply. As I tend to only use inexpensive Chinese made pens, it's easy for me to just use put a ill performing pen aside. I'm going to pay more attention to the mechanics.