PDA

View Full Version : Scotland's Independence Referendum, 18 September 2014



checkrail
September 21st, 2014, 04:50 PM
Scotland voted not to become independent of Britain/the United Kingdom (Britain plus Northern Ireland). I would be interested to hear any views on this, particularly,but not exclusively, from beyond these (British) shores.
Kind regards
Timothy

Empty_of_Clouds
September 22nd, 2014, 03:16 PM
Okay. I think the result was a good one.

Why?

Change for the sake of change is rarely a good reason for change.
Change based on pride is never a good reason for change.
Change based on the concept of cocking a snook (in this case at the English) is never a good reason for change.

Overall I believe that people need to put aside their personal agendas and look at the issue as dispassionately as possible. What benefits and drawbacks pertain to seceding, and what to remaining in the Union? If there is significant advantage to going it alone then by all means go for it. The key word here though is 'significant'. You need to define that first. Any decision made without this consideration will be ill-conceived.

I am also against the kind of decision that leads to pride-driven divisiveness in human affairs. That is a path back to tribalism, in my opinion. The nations of the United Kingdom have had their differences over the centuries, but we havee also stood shoulder to shoulder and fought and died together. This should not be cast aside so flippantly.

In the interests of balance I also think that Scotland could be a little more self-governing without the need for a total break from Union.

That's just my opinion. I am an Englishman. If Scotland had voted for independence then I would have had reservations about the wisdom of the choice but I would have respected the will of the people. Unfortunately there are many who are upset by the current poll result and show no respect for the democratic process. Toys, prams, out of.

Well, you did ask!

brunico
September 22nd, 2014, 07:21 PM
Pretty much what Cryptos has said. I couldn't see how Scotland would be better off, either. I see through all the "Scots governing ourselves" rubbish, too. After all, I've been governed all my life by people who are largely like me - English, male, white - and a fat lot of good it's done me, so I'd be happier to be governed by decent foreigners than by assorted carpetbaggers, crooks and arrogant little *&@#$ who could only appeal to my sense of patriotism!

There's been some thoughtless chauvinism in the 'yes' campaign, but if English politicians used your country to test out the poll tax, I can see why Scots might be a bit hacked off at being alternately shafted and forgotten. But I don't think Scottish antagonism towards Westminster is really a Scottish thing: it's shared with many people outside London, and even within it. There is a Westminster bubble, and it needs to be pricked, but the Scots running off to leave the English to their fate isn't going to help their compatriots south of the border... :(

On a positive note, perhaps we could have an arrangement more like the Austro-Hungarian Empire? :)

Ernst Bitterman
September 24th, 2014, 01:56 PM
I'm also pleased, but by about the same margin at the vote itself. The historical screwing of the Scots by England, especially after they were nice enough to supply a King James when England ran out of them, is bound to cause justified prickles, and the urge to cut that line of history off is quite understandable. However, voting to become a smaller country with (slightly) fewer resources and no international treaties in the current age seems a reckless notion.

I live in a part of Canada that is theoretically riding high on the sort of extraction economy it seems the Yes side was staking its hopes on, and what that's getting us is a cost of living that's going up faster than anywhere else without a counterbalancing increase in wages, with all the social woes that sort of thing beings with it. Environment aside, it's insupportable, and I wouldn't wish it on Scotland.

Of course, because I do live in Canada, and don't have much in the way of family connections in Great Britain, my opinion is rather academic and somewhat coloured by the simple disinclination to see change in familiar things-- Scotland = part of the UK, and after all the map rearrangements of the 1990s it's a scary thought that this might be otherwise.

Scrawler
September 26th, 2014, 06:33 PM
I was hoping lots of young ill informed, people driven by emotions recalled from past tribal aggressions, would vote for independence. The ensuing collapse of the economy would have meant that I could finally afford all those nice Scottish things I have always wanted.

Flounder
September 27th, 2014, 10:40 AM
Wow, here I was thinking that "Yes" voters were driven by Westminster mismanagement of North Sea oil revenues, nuke bases 25 miles from Glasgow, a self-serving political class, &c. Never guessed they were prideful tribal snook-cockers :rolleyes:

Scrawler
September 27th, 2014, 12:49 PM
Wow, here I was thinking that "Yes" voters were driven by Westminster mismanagement of North Sea oil revenues, nuke bases 25 miles from Glasgow, a self-serving political class, &c. Never guessed they were prideful tribal snook-cockers :rolleyes:

Things like that are only felt by people who actually live in Scotland, and are affected by them. The foreign press interpretation has been altogether different, with such minor matters as these being footnotes to the images of the "Tartan Army" and blue painted warriors. I, myself, have never been to Scotland, or know a single thing about the place, except for the romanticized image of the popular press, which of course, I believe without question. I suspect that you may have read one of the same articles I did, because the author used the term "cock-a-snook", so you must know that spin is put on events like this.

Oblique and Inky
September 28th, 2014, 01:24 PM
Sadly, it seems that too many people haven't read what is happening in Scotland. Scotland is one of the richest countries in the world and yet we have a growing number of food banks. Flounder only touches on the abuse that has been metered out to Scots, mainly by Scots, who are foolish and cowardly enough to trust an un-elected Government in London that utterly fails to care about the poor, the needy, the NHS and other things that prevent them from playing at being a colonial superpower.

The media in Scotland was used to terrify old people and delude people into not noticing the TTIP treaty that will see our NHS sold off to the friends of the rich politicians. This was then followed by the timeous announcement that the UK's last three planes were being sent to help start the next war in the Middle East.

I hope people go and read more than the media deign to tell them, and if anyone thinks the democratic process has been well served, then I must have been dreaming in a tartan haze when I took food to a rally to help the poor and elderly.

"I was hoping lots of young ill informed, people driven by emotions recalled from past tribal aggressions, would vote for independence. The ensuing collapse of the economy would have meant that I could finally afford all those nice Scottish things I have always wanted."

One of the most insulting and ill-informed pieces of typing I have had the misfortune to read.

Sir, you are a fool and an affront to humanity.

Empty_of_Clouds
September 28th, 2014, 07:02 PM
Scotland is one of the richest countries in the world

Would you care to define that for the benefit of those of us who are not as au fait with the area?

EDIT: also because, you know, facts (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/scotland-wealth-alex-salmond-study)

Ernst Bitterman
September 30th, 2014, 04:32 PM
Sadly, it seems that too many people haven't read what is happening in Scotland. Scotland is one of the richest countries in the world and yet we have a growing number of food banks. Flounder only touches on the abuse that has been metered out to Scots, mainly by Scots, who are foolish and cowardly enough to trust an un-elected Government in London that utterly fails to care about the poor, the needy, the NHS and other things that prevent them from playing at being a colonial superpower.

The media in Scotland was used to terrify old people and delude people into not noticing the TTIP treaty that will see our NHS sold off to the friends of the rich politicians. This was then followed by the timeous announcement that the UK's last three planes were being sent to help start the next war in the Middle East.

I hope people go and read more than the media deign to tell them, and if anyone thinks the democratic process has been well served, then I must have been dreaming in a tartan haze when I took food to a rally to help the poor and elderly.

Given what's going on here, I don't know that independence would have advanced you much. Resource wealth = swelling demand on food banks, social underpinnings eroded by untouchable fat cats in bed with high government, treaties concluded in dark secret-- all sounds VERY familiar in the Canadian context, and we've theoretically got direct representation in our Parliament. I think that for a successful Yes to have had real effect, some kind of semi-revolutionary disposing of all current politicians would be required.

I wonder if there's any hope of getting annexed by Sweden...?

LagNut
September 30th, 2014, 10:41 PM
So, I'm not seeing any response from beyond the Commonwealth. Obviously, you need the opinion of a Yank.

I did think, however, that if anyone should be able to identify irony, it would be a Scot. Keep in mind, I do have a sarcastic streak.

That said, I must confess a general bafflement on why Scotland is tied up with Britain still. It seems like it is the backyard with little political power tailor made for those NIMBY needs of Britain, much like the purpose Nevada serves in the US.

By the same token, I would say both Scotland and England dodged a bullet with this outcome, given the realpolitik realities. I do hope Scotland can emerge with more real power in the relationship. It will be better for both.

If not, tea parties are an option. The old school kind, not the monstrosity funded by the koch bros.

Good luck
(and keep Good writers safe!)
Mike

LagNut
October 23rd, 2014, 09:08 AM
All,

This may be off mark, as my knowledge of what's actually going on is limited, but my hopes for an enlightened response to the vote appears to be overly optimistic.

I hope I'm wrong, and the reality is better than what I hear. I really don't think breaking up the UK is a good outcome. It may serve party interests on both sides of the border, but I don't think it serves the common interest.

I can't do much more than watch from here, through a murky news system, but I really wish you folks well.

Cheers
Mike

checkrail
October 23rd, 2014, 09:48 AM
Thanks for everyone's views. For the benefit of readers whose news services are less interested now the referendum is past, all the main political parties are now represented on a commission under a neutral (I nearly said independent) convener (Sc Eng=chair [had to slip that Scotticism in!]) to come up with an agreed package of new devolved powers to Scotland that they will all commit to legislate on if they form the British government after next year's election. This should be interesting. This will have to run ahead of a new constitutional settlement for the whole UK, which the parties, particularly Labour and Conservative, are some miles apart on.
Kind regards
Timothy

snedwos
October 24th, 2014, 09:01 AM
I was pleased by the result and also the margin. Comfortable enough not to feel like Scotland will be torn apart, but with a yes vote big enough that it can't be ignored.

I hope that the increased devolution to Scotland will prompt the North of England to finally say 'us too'.

Also, can we find a way of adding the welsh dragon to the flag? Please? Who doesn't like dragons?

Scrawler
October 24th, 2014, 03:53 PM
I am happy that my new clothes arrived from Scotland yesterday, and saddened that the result of the poll did nothing to render them any less expensive.

GordonH
October 29th, 2014, 07:46 AM
I think what some people outside Scotland don't grasp is that a large section of the population feel they need to be protected against exploitation by England of Scotland's oil resources, or protected against the imposition of laws that do not have broad support here (like the Poll Tax). Also, the union with England only goes back to 1707 so all that stuff about the Battles of Hastings and Agincourt (or indeed Stonehenge) that is considered common history is actually long before the two countries were connected. It hasn't been that long since both were separate countries.

However, the reason the country voted NO is that we are all Thatcher's children now. We have been trained to vote for short term financial self interest, so when pensioners were phoned by English based activists warning them that their pensions were at risk they voted No. Same for financial service workers who voted No as they thought their jobs would disappear (although ironically lots of them are now losing their jobs). So basically its all our own fault.

Scotland will be independent one day. The day after the oil runs out.

Empty_of_Clouds
October 29th, 2014, 01:40 PM
Isn't it ironic that people trumpet the superiority of democracy over other political systems and yet fail to respect the majority vote when it does not accord with their own views.

Same for stuff like this:


I think what some people outside Scotland don't grasp is that a large section of the population feel they need to be protected against exploitation by England of Scotland's oil resources, or protected against the imposition of laws that do not have broad support here (like the Poll Tax)




We have been trained to vote for short term financial self interest, so when pensioners were phoned by English based activists warning them that their pensions were at risk they voted No.

I'd like to see some verifiable, non-anecdotal proof of this...



Mentioned in an earlier post, and offered again here (not that it'll make any difference, but anyway).

EDIT: also because, you know, facts (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/scotland-wealth-alex-salmond-study)
.

LagNut
October 31st, 2014, 07:19 PM
I'm missing something. Where is the lack of respect?

Empty_of_Clouds
October 31st, 2014, 11:49 PM
It was in the quote about a 'large section of the population'.

The promoters of independence in Scotland talk it up and put their side - all well and good - but then cry foul that, quelle surprise, there were more people who didn't want to be independent. That is a lack of respect for the process right there.

See post #2 for my actual opinion. I was trying to take a non-invested position.

LagNut
November 3rd, 2014, 10:57 AM
Thanks much. I'm learning more about your internal politics than I ever envisaged.

I do wish positive outcome for all here. I believe that is a strongly majority view here in the States.

But you folks do mystify us on a regular basis.

Mike

Ernst Bitterman
November 3rd, 2014, 12:30 PM
Also, can we find a way of adding the welsh dragon to the flag? Please? Who doesn't like dragons?

It's been there the whole time. It's just hard to make out on the horizontal bar. ;)

snedwos
November 4th, 2014, 12:19 AM
I thought the process went rather smoothly. Catalonia on the other hand...