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View Full Version : Parker 51 vac. Restore



GING GING
September 27th, 2014, 07:51 PM
This is my first attempt14120

Farmboy
September 27th, 2014, 08:42 PM
I generally try to avoid soaking the filler. The different metals have favorable half-cell potentials to promote corrosion.

But sometimes you do need to get them wet.

GING GING
September 27th, 2014, 09:13 PM
Farmboy, what is the filler? No I'm not be funny. I really don't know what the filler is

Farmboy
September 27th, 2014, 09:40 PM
The filler unit is the spring loaded rod at the back end of the pen. It is threaded into the barrel with a retaining nut and is made of a celluloid rod, and usually an aluminum ferrule and steel spring. The metal parts will corrode easily. If you are blessed with a carbon steel spring, it can go to junk quickly.

Todd

pajaro
September 28th, 2014, 08:38 AM
The first time I did one of these, quite recently, I found that the filler unit unscrewed from the barrel using some rubber gripping material to grip the exposed threads on the filler unit and just unscrewing it. There is no sealant used on the threads. To make it easy, I bought a brass filler unit with the sac installed. This is not cheap, about $30. It would have been less expensive to resac the old filler unit, which is still good. I just screwed the new filler unit into the barrel. Apparently when it stops threading into the barrel it forms a seal. I filled the pen and it works, no leaks. I didn't disassemble the front end of the pen.

What I did do was to use shellac on the filler unit threads. Warned that this was not recommended, I removed the filler unit and used alcohol on a Q-tip to remove the shellac from the filler and from the barrel threads. Then I screwed the filler unit back in. I used the rubber gripping material to snug it. The pen works fine. I can't believe how simple this was.

EDIT: I forgot to put in that I used a pic to remove old sac material from the barrel before installing the new filler unit.

Laura N
September 28th, 2014, 12:52 PM
The first time I did one of these, quite recently, I found that the filler unit unscrewed from the barrel using some rubber gripping material to grip the exposed threads on the filler unit and just unscrewing it. There is no sealant used on the threads. To make it easy, I bought a brass filler unit with the sac installed. This is not cheap, about $30. It would have been less expensive to resac the old filler unit, which is still good. I just screwed the new filler unit into the barrel. Apparently when it stops threading into the barrel it forms a seal. I filled the pen and it works, no leaks. I didn't disassemble the front end of the pen.

What I did do was to use shellac on the filler unit threads. Warned that this was not recommended, I removed the filler unit and used alcohol on a Q-tip to remove the shellac from the filler and from the barrel threads. Then I screwed the filler unit back in. I used the rubber gripping material to snug it. The pen works fine. I can't believe how simple this was.

EDIT: I forgot to put in that I used a pic to remove old sac material from the barrel before installing the new filler unit.

I think this varies. I've done a few, and in most of mine found some sort of sealant used on those filler unit threads. I even had one where the mystery sealant wasn't shellac, so it was murder to remove. A tiny bit of shellac is sometimes necessary to keep the filler unit from unscrewing with the blind cap, which may account for the variation. Also these have been around for a lot of years and may have been repaired in the past.

Where did you find a brass filler unit with sac, may I ask?

pajaro
September 28th, 2014, 05:50 PM
The first time I did one of these, quite recently, I found that the filler unit unscrewed from the barrel using some rubber gripping material to grip the exposed threads on the filler unit and just unscrewing it. There is no sealant used on the threads. To make it easy, I bought a brass filler unit with the sac installed. This is not cheap, about $30. It would have been less expensive to resac the old filler unit, which is still good. I just screwed the new filler unit into the barrel. Apparently when it stops threading into the barrel it forms a seal. I filled the pen and it works, no leaks. I didn't disassemble the front end of the pen.

What I did do was to use shellac on the filler unit threads. Warned that this was not recommended, I removed the filler unit and used alcohol on a Q-tip to remove the shellac from the filler and from the barrel threads. Then I screwed the filler unit back in. I used the rubber gripping material to snug it. The pen works fine. I can't believe how simple this was.

EDIT: I forgot to put in that I used a pic to remove old sac material from the barrel before installing the new filler unit.

I think this varies. I've done a few, and in most of mine found some sort of sealant used on those filler unit threads. I even had one where the mystery sealant wasn't shellac, so it was murder to remove. A tiny bit of shellac is sometimes necessary to keep the filler unit from unscrewing with the blind cap, which may account for the variation. Also these have been around for a lot of years and may have been repaired in the past.

Where did you find a brass filler unit with sac, may I ask?

I found the brass filler unit with sac installed on ebay and also on FPN classifieds, jaxxon is the seller.

I posted that I had used a miniscule dab of shellac on the filler threads and the response was never do it, from FPN. However, you are correct to assess each pen individually for whether sealant might be needed. On two I have done it wasn't, but the first pen worked OK with a very small amount of sealant, just enough to keep the filler from unscrewing with the blind cap, as you point out. It's a judgement call, and if you are doing the repair, you make the call.

There are Vac filler removal tools, things you screw onto the exposed threads and use to unscrew the filler. I think the main advantage is leverage the tool gives, a mechanical advantage. I think they are forty or fifty bucks. You have to expect to do a number of vac filler resacs to make it worth it. Unscrewing the filler with the rubber grip aid did hurt my fingers, but I am a cheapskate. For forty or fifty bucks I could buy another pen to add to the couple of hundred I already have and leave me wondering what pen to use next.

Doing these sac R&Rs was more fun than I would have thought, and I think I now like the 51 Vacs as much as the aeros.

Laura N
September 28th, 2014, 06:54 PM
The first time I did one of these, quite recently, I found that the filler unit unscrewed from the barrel using some rubber gripping material to grip the exposed threads on the filler unit and just unscrewing it. There is no sealant used on the threads. To make it easy, I bought a brass filler unit with the sac installed. This is not cheap, about $30. It would have been less expensive to resac the old filler unit, which is still good. I just screwed the new filler unit into the barrel. Apparently when it stops threading into the barrel it forms a seal. I filled the pen and it works, no leaks. I didn't disassemble the front end of the pen.

What I did do was to use shellac on the filler unit threads. Warned that this was not recommended, I removed the filler unit and used alcohol on a Q-tip to remove the shellac from the filler and from the barrel threads. Then I screwed the filler unit back in. I used the rubber gripping material to snug it. The pen works fine. I can't believe how simple this was.

EDIT: I forgot to put in that I used a pic to remove old sac material from the barrel before installing the new filler unit.

I think this varies. I've done a few, and in most of mine found some sort of sealant used on those filler unit threads. I even had one where the mystery sealant wasn't shellac, so it was murder to remove. A tiny bit of shellac is sometimes necessary to keep the filler unit from unscrewing with the blind cap, which may account for the variation. Also these have been around for a lot of years and may have been repaired in the past.

Where did you find a brass filler unit with sac, may I ask?

I found the brass filler unit with sac installed on ebay and also on FPN classifieds, jaxxon is the seller.

I posted that I had used a miniscule dab of shellac on the filler threads and the response was never do it, from FPN. However, you are correct to assess each pen individually for whether sealant might be needed. On two I have done it wasn't, but the first pen worked OK with a very small amount of sealant, just enough to keep the filler from unscrewing with the blind cap, as you point out. It's a judgement call, and if you are doing the repair, you make the call.

There are Vac filler removal tools, things you screw onto the exposed threads and use to unscrew the filler. I think the main advantage is leverage the tool gives, a mechanical advantage. I think they are forty or fifty bucks. You have to expect to do a number of vac filler resacs to make it worth it. Unscrewing the filler with the rubber grip aid did hurt my fingers, but I am a cheapskate. For forty or fifty bucks I could buy another pen to add to the couple of hundred I already have and leave me wondering what pen to use next.

Doing these sac R&Rs was more fun than I would have thought, and I think I now like the 51 Vacs as much as the aeros.

I had the same reaction. I gained so much appreciation for the vac filler -- it's a really great mechanism, which I didn't appreciate fully until I saw it up close.

I did the sac replacements. I have to say those are challenging. Even some experienced guys I know said they mess it up every once in a while. Or maybe they were trying to make me feel better. :)

pajaro
September 29th, 2014, 01:19 AM
Which is why I bought a couple of brass filler units with sac installed. I knew I would be in over my head trying to replace the pellet cup and cementing the sac to the filler unit with a drop of cement, as the instructions that came with the brass unit said, to use a drop of cement to attach the sac. I could have used the old filler units and attached the sac, but until I had the filler units out, I didn't have any idea what was involved. If the filler unit comes out intact, all you have to do is get the sac remnants out of the pen and cement the sac to the filler unit. I am guessing that knowledgable repairers don't use super glue, probably sac cement, whatever that is, but you can buy it.

edit to add: This is a good reason to repair your own pens. If you have instructions, by repairing the pen you can get a clear picture of how the pen works, and this inspires confidence in the pen. The pen then becomes something more than a black box full of mystery.

gweddig
September 29th, 2014, 07:23 AM
I have tried the brass filling units on two occasions. They functioned well in both instances. My only complaint is that, because of their weight the throw off the balance of the pen for me.
I generally try to seek out original parts but was curious about the reproductions.

--greg

Farmboy
September 29th, 2014, 12:27 PM
I have tried the brass filling units on two occasions. They functioned well in both instances. My only complaint is that, because of their weight the throw off the balance of the pen for me.
I generally try to seek out original parts but was curious about the reproductions.

--greg

It has been my observation that the reproduction fillers have caused a price increase in good original fillers. I don't understand why but it is my observation.

I'm there with the rebuilt originals having access to new pellet cups and springs.

Farmer-

GING GING
September 29th, 2014, 10:06 PM
The filler unit is the spring loaded rod at the back end of the pen. It is threaded into the barrel with a retaining nut and is made of a celluloid rod, and usually an aluminum ferrule and steel spring. The metal parts will corrode easily. If you are blessed with a carbon steel spring, it can go to junk quickly.

Todd

Okay, great. That's what I broke earlier today. It's not a big deal just the cost of learning. I'll either have it replaced or have it fixed. But I did get it apart. APART is what broke it. Torquing worked fine in the beginning. I guess my luck ran out

Jon Szanto
September 30th, 2014, 11:23 AM
Okay, great. That's what I broke earlier today. It's not a big deal just the cost of learning. I'll either have it replaced or have it fixed. But I did get it apart. APART is what broke it. Torquing worked fine in the beginning. I guess my luck ran out

Of all the elements of repair and restoration, luck is the least. Patience, knowledge, good tools, prudence - these are all the important parts. The older the item, the more you lean on these parts of the process. Counting on luck is right up there with the Tooth Fairy: it needs to be left behind.

pajaro
September 30th, 2014, 03:10 PM
I find the brass fillers make no difference I can feel in the balance in the restored pen. I like the look of them. Theoretically the brass ought to make the pen rear heavy, but the amount of brass is small. Compare them with the amount of brass in a piston filler like the Pelikan M1000 or M800 and the result in the P51 is less pronounced. The Pelikan M200 to M600 have lighter resin piston filler mechanisms. With the Pelikan M800 and M1000 I could feel the back heaviness. I think the fact that the brass filler P51 unit is brass conditions you to think automatically that it is heavy.

The brass fillers being higher priced might be dragging the original filler prices up.

I have noted that original fillers with sac installed are more expensive: $35 and up as opposed to $28 for the brass unit with sac installed. Higher shipping costs from shippers of original fillers make the gap wider for delivered prices. It makes me think that sending the pen off for restoration might be better, but I learned something about the 51 Vac by doing this. It's no longer the 51 from hell in my view.

Having an expert restore the pen might be worthwhile, because the expert might notice any other issues with the pen, like cracks that might make the pen unrestorable.

kirchh
October 12th, 2014, 10:13 PM
Which is why I bought a couple of brass filler units with sac installed. I knew I would be in over my head trying to replace the pellet cup

Not sure why you thought you'd have to replace the pellet cup. Was it missing or badly damaged?


... and cementing the sac to the filler unit with a drop of cement, as the instructions that came with the brass unit said, to use a drop of cement to attach the sac.

Vacumatic diaphragms should not be cemented to their filler units.


I could have used the old filler units and attached the sac, but until I had the filler units out, I didn't have any idea what was involved. If the filler unit comes out intact, all you have to do is get the sac remnants out of the pen

Not quite. You have to get the old pellet out as well.


... and cement the sac to the filler unit. I am guessing that knowledgable repairers don't use super glue, probably sac cement, whatever that is, but you can buy it.

Knowledgeable repairers don't use anything.

--Daniel

pajaro
October 13th, 2014, 08:39 AM
Not sure why you thought you'd have to replace the pellet cup. Was it missing or badly damaged?

Ihe old filler unit on one of the pens had this come apart.

... and cementing the sac to the filler unit with a drop of cement, as the instructions that came with the brass unit said, to use a drop of cement to attach the sac.

Vacumatic diaphragms should not be cemented to their filler units.
The instructions with the brass filler unit said to use cement to attach the sac to the filler unit. I didn't use anything here.

I could have used the old filler units and attached the sac, but until I had the filler units out, I didn't have any idea what was involved. If the filler unit comes out intact, all you have to do is get the sac remnants out of the pen

Not quite. You have to get the old pellet out as well.

Until I got the filler unit out, I had no idea.

... and cement the sac to the filler unit. I am guessing that knowledgable repairers don't use super glue, probably sac cement, whatever that is, but you can buy it.

Knowledgeable repairers don't use anything.

--Daniel

OK. The instructions with both brass filler units did say to attach the sac to the filler unit with a bit of "cement." I wasn't sure what was meant, so I just put the sac on the end of the new filler unit, and it seemed to work OK.

kirchh
October 13th, 2014, 08:54 AM
OK. The instructions with both brass filler units did say to attach the sac to the filler unit with a bit of "cement." I wasn't sure what was meant, so I just put the sac on the end of the new filler unit, and it seemed to work OK.

That's odd. Can you post a scan or photo of the instructions?

--Daniel

pajaro
October 13th, 2014, 08:57 AM
The brass filler units seemed to work OK with the demi sacs that came with them.

I could have used the original filler units, the first one bu just buying a new sac and putting it on, the second one by fixing the unit with a new pellet cup and sac.

I gave the first filer unit away to another member. This unit will need a sac.

The second pen had problems. The hood had the point broken off. I took the hood off and found the threads were ruined, and the section was cracked on this dove gray 51. It wasn't going to go back together, so on the plus side I jave a new dove gray hood, a nice fine spare nib and breather tube, and a rhodium colored brass filler unit. I'll be able to repair the next of my three 51 Vacs that needs a resac, and there's a spare dove gray hood and fine nib and breather tube. From the experience and the help from everybody, I now have a much better idea of how to resac a 51 Vac.

I found it easier to unscrew the filler unit than to get the hood off of any 51.

Then, if the filler unit is intact, from all the help here, it appears all you have to do is positiion the new demi sac on the filler unit and screw it back in. When the filler unit seemed to get stuck going back in, I pushed slithtly on the filler rod to extend the sac and kept screwing it in until it was seated fully. Then it worked and didn't leak.

pajaro
October 13th, 2014, 09:02 AM
OK. The instructions with both brass filler units did say to attach the sac to the filler unit with a bit of "cement." I wasn't sure what was meant, so I just put the sac on the end of the new filler unit, and it seemed to work OK.

That's odd. Can you post a scan or photo of the instructions?

--Daniel

OK, I'll take a picture of the instructions and post them later, after breakfast and taking meds. Thanks for all your clarifications and help. I hope this helps someone else to have the confidence to tackle this repair. It's not as daunting as I had thought.

pajaro
October 13th, 2014, 12:54 PM
http://fpgeeks.com/forum/album.php?albumid=91&attachmentid=14344

If you click on the above link, you will get the picture of the instructions that came with the brass filler unit.

I uploaded the pic to an album here, and the best I could figure was to post a link to it.

kirchh
October 13th, 2014, 01:54 PM
I don't see the following:


The instructions with both brass filler units did say to attach the sac to the filler unit with a bit of "cement."

There is only a note regarding securing a diaphragm if the pellet pocket is loose (presumably because of damage sustained while removing a previous pellet).

--Daniel

pajaro
October 13th, 2014, 04:17 PM
It said, "If the diaphragm is loose in the pellet holder add one tiny drop of instant glue."

Pellet pocket loose? It didn't say that. Maybe the instruction was too vague. At any rate, it all came attached and fitted in and worked.

GING GING
October 13th, 2014, 09:19 PM
This is the end result of my Resto attempt. This is a crack you're looking at. Can this be repaired or do I have to buy another barrel?

pajaro
October 14th, 2014, 05:42 AM
It it's cracked through and leaks, you can solvent weld it or buy another barrel. Solvent welding with something like methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) is best left to someone who is experienced with it. It's toxic. On parker51.com I think you can buy a new barrel in that color.

kirchh
October 14th, 2014, 08:13 AM
It said, "If the diaphragm is loose in the pellet holder add one tiny drop of instant glue."

Pellet pocket loose? It didn't say that. Maybe the instruction was too vague. At any rate, it all came attached and fitted in and worked.

Right -- it said if the pellet pocket was loose (that is, not holding the pellet securely, as a loose glove will fall off your hand), the diaphragm could be secured there with "instant glue." The point is that the instructions did not say that as a normal step in the filler installation procedure, the diaphragm should be cemented to the filler, as you'd stated. In general, no adhesive is involved in installing a Vac diaphragm.

--Daniel

kirchh
October 14th, 2014, 08:14 AM
It it's cracked through and leaks, you can solvent weld it or buy another barrel. Solvent welding with something like methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) is best left to someone who is experienced with it. It's toxic. On parker51.com I think you can buy a new barrel in that color.

MEK would not be the solvent of choice for this repair, but I second the recommendation for professional assistance or a barrel replacement.

--Daniel

GING GING
October 14th, 2014, 01:50 PM
Thanx every body. Whether it's in a week or 6 months. I'll keep you updated on what I do

pajaro
October 14th, 2014, 09:26 PM
It it's cracked through and leaks, you can solvent weld it or buy another barrel. Solvent welding with something like methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) is best left to someone who is experienced with it. It's toxic. On parker51.com I think you can buy a new barrel in that color.

MEK would not be the solvent of choice for this repair, but I second the recommendation for professional assistance or a barrel replacement.

--Daniel

I don't care what the solvent of choice is, just an example to illustrate that it is easier and cheaper to buy a new old barrel than to fix this. So, go on and pick that apart, if you will, but there's little useful purpose in it.

pajaro
October 14th, 2014, 09:32 PM
It said, "If the diaphragm is loose in the pellet holder add one tiny drop of instant glue."

Pellet pocket loose? It didn't say that. Maybe the instruction was too vague. At any rate, it all came attached and fitted in and worked.

Right -- it said if the pellet pocket was loose (that is, not holding the pellet securely, as a loose glove will fall off your hand), the diaphragm could be secured there with "instant glue." The point is that the instructions did not say that as a normal step in the filler installation procedure, the diaphragm should be cemented to the filler, as you'd stated. In general, no adhesive is involved in installing a Vac diaphragm.

--Daniel

Keep picking it apart, but it was vague to me and I used nothing anyway.

Rather than a continuing pick apart, why not just clarify the procedure?

I am quite sure I will not do another of these, so I care nothing about it. By the time all the pick-aparts are done the result will be confusing.

Laura N
October 14th, 2014, 10:06 PM
Good idea, Pajaro. Maybe this would be a good place to link to some general guidance for those considering this repair in the future. I think these online sources are good places to start: Parker51.com provides some brief instructions here (http://parker51.com/repairs.html), and Richard Binder has more detailed ones here (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/repair/vac_diaphragm.htm) for all Parker vacumatics.

I have to admit that I don't find this repair very easy. Maybe it's just me. But I think many people would find it easier, better and even cheaper to send these pens off to a professional. I've used Danny Fudge, for just one name, and I think he might handle vacs.

mhosea
October 15th, 2014, 04:45 AM
It it's cracked through and leaks, you can solvent weld it or buy another barrel. Solvent welding with something like methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) is best left to someone who is experienced with it. It's toxic. On parker51.com I think you can buy a new barrel in that color.

MEK would not be the solvent of choice for this repair, but I second the recommendation for professional assistance or a barrel replacement.

--Daniel

I don't care what the solvent of choice is, just an example to illustrate that it is easier and cheaper to buy a new old barrel than to fix this. So, go on and pick that apart, if you will, but there's little useful purpose in it.

Daniel is an expert, and his post was useful.