Nib grinding on grail pens... Your thoughts

[brewsky]

So here's my dilemma... I currently possess one of my grail pens (and have another one on the way) both of which have nib sizes I don't like.

I grind my own nibs and have done so for some time. I have owned my current one for almost a year. I originally had plans to send it off for nib work, but never did for some reason. I don't know if I'm afraid of resale value or if I just want to keep the pen "original".

I am strongly considering taking the new pen to my perfect specs but am hesitating at the same time.

Let's hear your thoughts.

[Jon Szanto]

1. If it's a grail pen, why would you ever sell it?
2. If you are voicing any hesitancy at all about self-grinding, that is a clear indication you should send it to a meister.
3. If it is truly a grail pen, it is both worthy and deserving of work done by someone who does that as their primary vocation / skill.

I guess that about sums up my thoughts.

[mhosea]

I have ground several of my own stubs and do a lot of other nib work, but I decided that I'd send a Montblanc 149 with a B or BB tip that I didn't care for to Pendleton Brown rather than do it myself. It's not that I didn't think I could handle it, rather that it was a situation where I felt that lots of experience at it would drive down the risk to almost nothing. I was very pleased with the results (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/7782-MB-149-with-Pendleton-Brown-quot-Butterline-quot-Stub-CI?). Therefore, I am supportive of the idea of grinding "grail" pens, and yet I think it is worth it, and perhaps adds value, to send it to one of the more iconic professionals. My stubs are as smooth as the Pendleton Point to write with, but I can't yet achieve his symmetry and perfection of the form. You may be better than I, however.

[tandaina]

If you are a collector and your "grail pen" is the pinnacle of your collection then don't grind it, or ink it, as that will change its value.

If you are a *user* then why would you *even consider* not making sure your grail pen is the pen you want to pick up and use constantly? I don't even understand the hesitation. I spent over $1000 on a Nakaya, it is quite probably the only pen of that caliber I will ever own. Of *course* I had John Mottishaw grind the nib to my exact preferences before it ever left his hands. He and I spent quite a while on the phone discussing my "perfect nib" and he eventually ground an oblique that matched the angle of 1950s Pelikan Obliques, that was also a cursive italic with rounded shoulders. Would anyone else care for that nib? I have no idea, nor do I care. The pen will never leave my possession until someday my will gives it to someone who will appreciate it.

They are your pens. Do what you want with them. But most especially do what will make you *use* them and enjoy them. Otherwise, what's the point of a grail pen?

(But I would most definitely want a grail pen ground by a master. I wouldn't grind it myself unless I *was* John Mottishaw.) ;)

[Chrissy]

If I wanted to use it and it had a nib I didn't like, then I would want it ground by a professional.

If I wanted to not use it and keep it as part of a collection of pens that don't get used, I would leave it alone.

Surely it's that simple?

[Silverbreeze]

I am a user of pens
I have sent all my not exactly what I want pens to people like Master Masuyama, Pendleton Brown or replaced the nib with a Binder MasterWork

My grail pen probably wouldn't count for some, as it is a gold nibbed Beaumont Pneumatic ground for Cursive Italtic by Brian Gray and therefore a Master Work in my opinion. As I am not an investor, I am really the only judge needing appeasement


So here's my dilemma... I currently possess one of my grail pens (and have another one on the way) both of which have nib sizes I don't like.

I grind my own nibs and have done so for some time. I have owned my current one for almost a year. I originally had plans to send it off for nib work, but never did for some reason. I don't know if I'm afraid of resale value or if I just want to keep the pen "original".

I am strongly considering taking the new pen to my perfect specs but am hesitating at the same time.

Let's hear your thoughts.

[ethernautrix]

If it were a minor adjustment, I would attempt doing it myself (using a nail buffer typically). If I couldn't get the nib right, then I would send it to a pro. But I would definitely want to write with the pen and be completely happy doing so.

[Z-Tab]

If the nib size you want is something that is available commercially, then maybe you can arrange a swap with another owner and you'll both be happier. If the only way you'll get the nib you want is through a custom grind, then that is obviously the way to go.

[elderberry]

If you should ever decide to sell the pen among FP aficionados, they might even appreciate a nice italic/oblique/whatever it's going to be more than the boring stock nib, especially if the work was done by a renowned nibmeister.

Now I'm curious - what is your grail pen?

[brewsky]

The current one is a pelikan m101n lizard with an EF nib. Thinking about getting it cut down to a EF oblique cursive italic. (Just like tandaina, I LOVE old pelikan obliques). The pen is currently equipped with a wartime pelikan oblique fine nib marked "cn" it is a lovely one and an amazing nib.


The pen I have on the way is a excellent condition tortoise pelikan 400nn... I fell in love with the brown tortoise years ago.. Put off the purchase for what ever reason. This pen is coming with either a medium or bold nib. I want it to be either an xxf or an oblique as well.

[Laura N]

Now that you mention the specifics, I understand your hesitation. :)

I do think you'd make it hard to sell the pens if you make these changes. But if you are never selling it won't matter.

[mhosea]

I thought we were talking about a modern grail pen. Grinding nibs on vintage grail pens? I think it's usually a mistake when the nib is otherwise functioning properly. The m101n lizard sounds like a huge mistake to me, given that you describe the nib as "lovely" and "amazing". The 400nn might be a necessariy evil, given that you probably regard the medium or broad nib to be unusable.

[Jon Szanto]

Yeah, that would be a shame. I don't know about the Lizard, but the 400NN has a screw-in nib, and you should be able to find a way to trade/buy a nib of your choice for that pen. Altering vintage nibs is a different kettle of fish, and not one I'd ever lightly consider.

[Laura N]

Well, I don't mean to go full-on Pelikan geek, but the M101N lizard (http://www.pelikan.com/pulse/Pulsar/en_US_INTL.FWI.displayShop.114799./souveraen-m101n-lizard) is a modern pen. With a great nib that is different than the normal M400-size modern Pelikan nib. It's also a nib that I don't think Pelikan dealers sell separately, so it's possible that whatever you do to it, you're stuck with. That said, the OP indicated he has a vintage nib on the pen, so I'm not sure which nib he's thinking of altering.

If he means a vintage 101N lizard ... that's a whole different kettle of fish, in a different price range. Altering that would be hard to contemplate, for me. On the other hand, it's not my pen.

[mhosea]

Ah, now I think I understand. The proposal vis-a-vis the M101N Lizard is to grind its modern EF nib to oblique. The amazing and lovely wartime oblique fine, that just happens to be on the pen at the moment, is to be left alone. Well, that puts us back in the other context. Grind away. :)

[tandaina]

Go ahead and grind the modern Pelikan nibs. They are quite frankly nothing to write home about, nothing like their antique ancestors.

However. Here's what I've done. I have a nice modern 14k M400 nib that I had ground to my perfect grind. I just swap it from pen to pen to pen. I also have an antique 400 OBB that gets swapped between pens. All my 400 series (old or new) and my 200 series easily take these nibs. (Be careful, sometimes there are differences, but all mine swap with no issues). I have a whole collection of other Pelikan nibs that just sit in a drawer in my pen cabinet and will never be used, including old nibs that I would not grind (they are too fragile anyway, grinding an old nib can destroy the tipping which tends to be brittle).

For me, I'll pay more for a nib ground by say John, or Richard than I would for a pen with a stock nib. *Especially* if that pen is no longer in production/sold by them so you can no long get that nib ground by them. If that makes sense. ;) A nib ground by an unknown person though... that would give me pause.

[brewsky]

Thank you all for the replies.

I wanted to clear up something real quick.

The current nib unit on the lizard (the cn oblique) will not be changed. The nib i wanted to alter is the stock nib. Thinking more about this, I am going to leave the original nib stock. I want to be able to have it in original condition in twenty years.

As for the 400nn. I might just look for someone to trade me. Or keep the nib unit and search for another to purchase. All of this is under the speculation that the picture appears to be a medium or b. The actual size was not posted on the listing.

[brewsky]

Go ahead and grind the modern Pelikan nibs. They are quite frankly nothing to write home about, nothing like their antique ancestors.

However. Here's what I've done. I have a nice modern 14k M400 nib that I had ground to my perfect grind. I just swap it from pen to pen to pen. I also have an antique 400 OBB that gets swapped between pens. All my 400 series (old or new) and my 200 series easily take these nibs. (Be careful, sometimes there are differences, but all mine swap with no issues). I have a whole collection of other Pelikan nibs that just sit in a drawer in my pen cabinet and will never be used, including old nibs that I would not grind (they are too fragile anyway, grinding an old nib can destroy the tipping which tends to be brittle).

For me, I'll pay more for a nib ground by say John, or Richard than I would for a pen with a stock nib. *Especially* if that pen is no longer in production/sold by them so you can no long get that nib ground by them. If that makes sense. ;) A nib ground by an unknown person though... that would give me pause.
I really like the idea of getting a modern 400 ground down and use that

[Tony Rex]

Thinking more about this, I am going to leave the original nib stock. I want to be able to have it in original condition in twenty years.

That's the way. Grind the CN instead if you want to. Because a factory Rhodinized 400 size nib cost $250, so they easily cost more than a complete vintage pen. I got that quote when I was looking for an 18C with a scroll imprint logo, which was rarer, but I'd imagine the lizard nib shouldn't be too far off that ballpark. So I'd wanna keep it pristine if I were you.

That setup with the CN as a daily user is already optimal, and I reckon you did extremely well; it matches the trims and cheap enough to replace etc. and maybe If you really wanna get over the top, you could get a vintage 400 nib and Rhodinize that. :)

Moral of the story: Special modern Pelikan nibs can cost a lot. Trust me. I'm currently staring at one that cost more than an M101N... Some things are better enjoyed as original as possible.

[brewsky]

Thinking more about this, I am going to leave the original nib stock. I want to be able to have it in original condition in twenty years.

That's the way. Grind the CN instead if you want to. Because a factory Rhodinized 400 size nib cost $250, so they easily cost more than a complete vintage pen. I got that quote when I was looking for an 18C with a scroll imprint logo, which was rarer, but I'd imagine the lizard nib shouldn't be too far off that ballpark. So I'd wanna keep it pristine if I were you.

That setup with the CN as a daily user is already optimal, and I reckon you did extremely well; it matches the trims and cheap enough to replace etc. and maybe If you really wanna get over the top, you could get a vintage 400 nib and Rhodinize that. :)

Moral of the story: Special modern Pelikan nibs can cost a lot. Trust me. I'm currently staring at one that cost more than an M101N... Some things are better enjoyed as original as possible.
Thanks for your input Tony Rex.

It is crazy how much some modern nibs cost..

The lizard is amazing with the cn nib.. Maybe I'll just buy another off eBay since I like it do much :)

[brewsky]

Well I made this post prematurely... My pelikan 400nn came in today. The nib is more than I could have ever asked for. A superb semi flex EF which puts down a finer line than my modern Pelikan EF nibs. Just stunning. Thanks to all who responded. And here is a pic for good measure :) http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/08/ffb8eaf31538bdb6c7d7718c22d6465a.jpg

[bluefeathers]

The gold in the M101N nib is so soft, I would send it to a nibmeister to grind it if you decide to. I made a small scratch in mine just trying to align the tines.
Re: grinding nibs on grail pens, I find it risky getting nibs ground since you never know what you're going to get or if you'll like it, but theoretically you're supposed to be
getting exactly what you want!

[Woody]

If your confident in your work Brewsky I'd give it a go