Greg Minuskin - Quite disappointed

[pluvia]

I'll let my email exchange with him speak for itself

http://i.imgur.com/V06f1LH.png

I've been buying pens from Mr Minuskin for the last 2 years so needless to say I was quite disappointed, even offended to be treated this way. Granted, he offered a refund, but the refund was not in the line of "sorry for the trouble," but "go away I don't need your business." He has his wish, I will not return.

This is the pen in question http://gregminuskin.com/?p=14830. Notice he doesn't mention the problem anywhere in the listing. The pen is not a wet noodle either, semi flex at best, though I was aware of that at the time of purchasing.

[mhosea]

I don't want to comment on Greg's bedside manner, or lack thereof. I understand how you feel. Clearly he doesn't know how to fix the problem, and he's not aware of any defect, so regardless of how he should have handled it, there's actually nothing he can do for you except offer you a refund. I believe that's the backdrop.

It is true that the feeds of this vintage offer little protection from burps, but if you knew the pen was semi-flex, then you probably already knew that. However, a metal pen has very little insulation, and perhaps the sac is full-size for this pen. One thing you might try is replacing the sac with a smaller one. That might help, but if you tried to carry it in your pocket it probably still would burp eventually. I'm not very familiar with these pens, so I don't know what the feed looks like, but I can't imagine that Wahl pens of that era had much room in the feed to store ink, and consequently the channel is probably pretty good size as well.

[migo984]

After a recent experience of my own with Mr Minuskin, all it can say is I'm not surprised at his manner of response. I'll not be buying from him again.

[TheRealScubaSteve]

That is certainly disappointing. I've not had any dealings with him, but would expect to be spoken to with a bit more class as a new customer and certainly so as a returning customer. Speak with your wallet - it often hurts the most.

[Neo]

I've had a similar experience, he insisted I clogged the feed of the Vacumatic due to a poor choice of ink ( Diamine.). I sent it to someone else and was informed that the filling system was not in working order.

[Farmboy]

Mark,

First, welcome to FPG. I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with your new pen. I've read your post several times and I'm not put off by your inquiry nor am I put off by the response from Greg. In my view, you were not happy with a pen you purchased and the seller offered to refund your purchase and sell the pen to someone else. Returning the pen may not have been what you wanted but as you indicate, it was an option.

I will acknowledge that I have done a lot of business with Greg. In once instance I had a nib repair fail and after returning the nib to Greg, the issue was corrected promptly. I was asked how the repair failed and if I was attempting to abuse the nib but I expected that, I would have asked one of my customers the same questions and I didn't (and still don't) find this unreasonable.

In your case it seems you didn't like the after the sale service and you have chosen to not do business again. I would have taken a different approach and asked if I could return the pen to be examined/tested. If a defect was found the issue could be resolved, if unrepairable then a refund issued. Unless I'm missing something I just don't see the jump to where this seems to have ended.

In the absence of other options, you might remove the section and see if the sac is loose or bound up or something simple. It is a shame to see a nice pen not get used.

Farmboy (Todd)

[EclecticCollector]

I'll let my email exchange with him speak for itself
This is the pen in question http://gregminuskin.com/?p=14830. Notice he doesn't mention the problem anywhere in the listing. The pen is not a wet noodle either, semi flex at best, though I was aware of that at the time of purchasing.

I've been casually trying to purchase one of these famous Minuskin restored pens for a while now, and I was aware that the flexibility of those pens may sometimes be overstated, but I didn't realize the extent to which that might be the case. Describing a semi-flex as a wet noodle seems a bit much, unless "wet noodle" doesn't imply anything about the degree of flex possible? I was under the impression that wet noodle also implied full flex, but wetter.

Regardless, I do think this thread is starting to tread very close to this policy:

We don't care what you think of the person who did the work. His personality is not being reviewed, his work is.

[pluvia]

Mark,

First, welcome to FPG. I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with your new pen. I've read your post several times and I'm not put off by your inquiry nor am I put off by the response from Greg. In my view, you were not happy with a pen you purchased and the seller offered to refund your purchase and sell the pen to someone else. Returning the pen may not have been what you wanted but as you indicate, it was an option.

I will acknowledge that I have done a lot of business with Greg. In once instance I had a nib repair fail and after returning the nib to Greg, the issue was corrected promptly. I was asked how the repair failed and if I was attempting to abuse the nib but I expected that, I would have asked one of my customers the same questions and I didn't (and still don't) find this unreasonable.

In your case it seems you didn't like the after the sale service and you have chosen to not do business again. I would have taken a different approach and asked if I could return the pen to be examined/tested. If a defect was found the issue could be resolved, if unrepairable then a refund issued. Unless I'm missing something I just don't see the jump to where this seems to have ended.

In the absence of other options, you might remove the section and see if the sac is loose or bound up or something simple. It is a shame to see a nice pen not get used.

Farmboy (Todd)

Thank you. While unhappy with the pen, I'm even more unhappy with his service and the way I was treated. Returning is an option, and I chose not to take it. That, however, does not mean that I cannot comment on the quality of his service. I believe that is the spirit of market feedback as well. It is not so much about what I can get out of it, but what the community can learn from my experience.




I've been casually trying to purchase one of these famous Minuskin restored pens for a while now, and I was aware that the flexibility of those pens may sometimes be overstated, but I didn't realize the extent to which that might be the case. Describing a semi-flex as a wet noodle seems a bit much, unless "wet noodle" doesn't imply anything about the degree of flex possible? I was under the impression that wet noodle also implied full flex, but wetter.

Regardless, I do think this thread is starting to tread very close to this policy:

We don't care what you think of the person who did the work. His personality is not being reviewed, his work is.

My Pelican M400 has softer nib than that "wet noodle."

So far, we're still addressing my experience with his post-purchase service so that should be alright.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Having read the OP a couple of times from a couple of different perspectives I find that I tend to agree with Mark. The letter is discourteous and not at all how I would expect to be treated myself as a customer. In particular the second paragraph has the statement "I can quickly sell to another who will not have this issue". This is, in my opinion, a very thinly veiled insult and not acceptable. In the first paragraph Mr Minuskin also fails to appreciate - from his response - that Mark's assertion that the pen 'spews ink out when I look at it funny' is simply an expression to highlight, using hyperbole, the fact that the pen in question seems to leak rather too easily. It is not intended to be taken literally.

Of course we have to take into consideration the fact that email is not the best medium for communicating certain things, but even so, Mr Minuskin's reply comes across as disinterested and somewhat rude. He would do well to work on that aspect of his customer relationship.

Note I have commented on the quality of after sales service here, as that is why this thread exists. I am aware of Mr Minuskins reputation as a pen fiddler. However, that does not excuse poor manners.

That's my opinion on this matter. I believe Mark is right to complain about this. Take that for whatever you think it is worth.

[Cheshire]

Describing a semi-flex as a wet noodle seems a bit much, unless "wet noodle" doesn't imply anything about the degree of flex possible? I was under the impression that wet noodle also implied full flex, but wetter.

Regardless, I do think this thread is starting to tread very close to this policy:

We don't care what you think of the person who did the work. His personality is not being reviewed, his work is.

It's a bit of challenge for "wet noodle" status as the definition is really all over the place depending on who you've contacted and how long he/she have been in the FP business. Although, I'm not against OP for his complaint on Minuskin's after sales care but technically the only thing he can offer as a merchant would be a refund for the item. Is the actual email's writing unprofessional or abrasive? Yes.

[sharmon202]

Possibly a bit off specific topic but I have never seen a fp site focusing on how fast items sell like this. Binders does that somewhat but not to excite, assure quick turnover. Seemed odd to me, makes me go hmmm.

[ChrisC]

Judging flex can be quite the subjective thing. But as for actual experiences:


I had 1 good and 1 bad experience with Mr. Minuskin. A Sheaffer Snorkel 1.3 mm stub from him was the most flawless stub I've ever tried...and that's despite the fact that I'm a righty and it was a left-hand oblique nib. Seriously, that nib made my Visconti 1.3mm stub look like a joke.

But I also had a needlepoint flex nib from him whose tines were too far apart. The ink wouldn't flow all the way to the bottom of the page. I had to do a lot of adjusting just to get it to write consistently. Buying from eBay, I'd have no issue with that, but I expect a pen from a nibmeister to come to me ready to write consistently.

As it stands, I'll still buy from him if the pen and price are right. Everyone can make their own judgments.

[mhosea]

Possibly a bit off specific topic but I have never seen a fp site focusing on how fast items sell like this. Binders does that somewhat but not to excite, assure quick turnover. Seemed odd to me, makes me go hmmm.

It seems to me that Greg's business model is all about efficiency and fast turnaround. There are no seat belts on this ride, no padding, and no airbags, just an ejector seat. I think the pens he sells go quickly because he prices them that way. Binder is more about restoring the pens completely, being there for you after the sale, etc. Greg tends (at my last check, which was over a year ago) to under-price pens that have been restored to working order but are not fully-restored as compared to Richard Binder's or Ron Zorn's standards, for example. It's Richard's reputation for full restoration and after-sale service that makes a monthly feeding frenzy possible at his prices. Even so, some of the most expensive items in his tray don't sell quickly. At some price point you really need to want that pen, not just say "what the hell" and buy something that you weren't looking for.

Of course Greg's main thing is nib retipping and repair (real "repair", not "tuning").

[ainterne]

Really sorry to hear about your experience. I must say, on the odd times that I have made contact with him that I received abrupt, unhelpful responses. I think the problem is that mails very rarely demonstrate the manner in which they were written. I have worked from home in the last 3 years and 70% of the communications I have is via mail 20% by phone and the rest face to face. What I noticed very quickly after working from home permanently is that without being able to read peoples body language it become very easy indeed to misconstrue the mails content and the way it was meant to be conveyed. We all use body language much more than most people believe.

Imagine for a moment you are are standing in front of Greg Muskin and him saying the words "I have never heard of a pen spewing ink because someone looked at if funny" while laughing a little with a smile on his face. Then image him saying the same with a stern, harsh look on his face. His response takes on a completely different meanings when said with a smile or a scowl. Very busy people generally only want to deal with facts, and niceties go be the wayside or are incorrectly interpreted.

I would suggest that when he said, "I can sell to another that wont have this issue" that it means that he could sell to someone that wont carry the pen around and just keep it stored as a collectors item. If read in that way, his comment is reasonable.

The reason for the burping on that pen seems quite obvious to me. The nib and feed are not in far enough. The nib should be put in so that the bottom of the number 2 is just showing. I have about 20 of these pens with number 2 nibs in silver and gold pens. They always do the same if the nib and feed are to far out. It's an attractive look to keep the nib so far out because it enhances the look of the pen, the drawback is that you will get these floods of ink releasing because the feed is not far enough in keeping a tight seal. I know its hard, but ignore the mail, I would call him, not write. Ask if he can reset the nib and feed deeper in to the pen and test.

I must say, the nib looks really nice... That's a keeper....

[pengeezer]

Possibly a bit off specific topic but I have never seen a fp site focusing on how fast items sell like this. Binders does that somewhat but not to excite, assure quick turnover. Seemed odd to me, makes me go hmmm.

It seems to me that Greg's business model is all about efficiency and fast turnaround. There are no seat belts on this ride, no padding, and no airbags, just an ejector seat. I think the pens he sells go quickly because he prices them that way. Binder is more about restoring the pens completely, being there for you after the sale, etc. Greg tends (at my last check, which was over a year ago) to under-price pens that have been restored to working order but are not fully-restored as compared to Richard Binder's or Ron Zorn's standards, for example. It's Richard's reputation for full restoration and after-sale service that makes a monthly feeding frenzy possible at his prices. Even so, some of the most expensive items in his tray don't sell quickly. At some price point you really need to want that pen, not just say "what the hell" and buy something that you weren't looking for.

Of course Greg's main thing is nib retipping and repair (real "repair", not "tuning").

I think that Mike hit the nail on the head--Mr. Minuskin's specialty is nib re-tipping,not restoring the whole pen like Richard
Binder would do. Will he make a mistake and miss a poorly seated nib that creates a "blobbing" effect? Yep,he's no different than anyone
else. The better thing to have done(as someone has already suggested) would have been to contact him by phone before bringing this up in the
forum.




John

[pluvia]

Imagine for a moment you are are standing in front of Greg Muskin and him saying the words "I have never heard of a pen spewing ink because someone looked at if funny" while laughing a little with a smile on his face. Then image him saying the same with a stern, harsh look on his face. His response takes on a completely different meanings when said with a smile or a scowl. Very busy people generally only want to deal with facts, and niceties go be the wayside or are incorrectly interpreted.

I would suggest that when he said, "I can sell to another that wont have this issue" that it means that he could sell to someone that wont carry the pen around and just keep it stored as a collectors item. If read in that way, his comment is reasonable.



Thank you very much for the advice on how to fix the pen, I guess I will find a third party to look at this. Regarding Mr Minuskin, I agree that I might have contacted him on a bad day, or there was a bit of miscommunication. However, take a look at this follow up
http://i.imgur.com/oQloQlz.png

I think normal people would try to fix the issue, but instead Mr Minuskin decided to escalate the problem and make further insults and mockery instead, this time at my poor choice of online username. Granted, my username is indeed distasteful so I'll give him that, but I think we can safely eliminate the possibility of misunderstanding here and I don't think a smile from him would fix this at all.

[Chrissy]

Having read the OP a couple of times from a couple of different perspectives I find that I tend to agree with Mark. The letter is discourteous and not at all how I would expect to be treated myself as a customer. In particular the second paragraph has the statement "I can quickly sell to another who will not have this issue". This is, in my opinion, a very thinly veiled insult and not acceptable. In the first paragraph Mr Minuskin also fails to appreciate - from his response - that Mark's assertion that the pen 'spews ink out when I look at it funny' is simply an expression to highlight, using hyperbole, the fact that the pen in question seems to leak rather too easily. It is not intended to be taken literally.

Of course we have to take into consideration the fact that email is not the best medium for communicating certain things, but even so, Mr Minuskin's reply comes across as disinterested and somewhat rude. He would do well to work on that aspect of his customer relationship.

Note I have commented on the quality of after sales service here, as that is why this thread exists. I am aware of Mr Minuskins reputation as a pen fiddler. However, that does not excuse poor manners.

That's my opinion on this matter. I believe Mark is right to complain about this. Take that for whatever you think it is worth.

Having carefully read all of the posts I tend to agree with these comments. I would have returned the pen for a full refund.

Having had a look at his web site it seems to me that the condition of the pens for sale might not be the sellers first priority. The main point seems to be how long they actually take to sell and how many people inquire after them.

[pengeezer]

Imagine for a moment you are are standing in front of Greg Muskin and him saying the words "I have never heard of a pen spewing ink because someone looked at if funny" while laughing a little with a smile on his face. Then image him saying the same with a stern, harsh look on his face. His response takes on a completely different meanings when said with a smile or a scowl. Very busy people generally only want to deal with facts, and niceties go be the wayside or are incorrectly interpreted.

I would suggest that when he said, "I can sell to another that wont have this issue" that it means that he could sell to someone that wont carry the pen around and just keep it stored as a collectors item. If read in that way, his comment is reasonable.



Thank you very much for the advice on how to fix the pen, I guess I will find a third party to look at this. Regarding Mr Minuskin, I agree that I might have contacted him on a bad day, or there was a bit of miscommunication. However, take a look at this follow up
http://i.imgur.com/oQloQlz.png

I think normal people would try to fix the issue, but instead Mr Minuskin decided to escalate the problem and make further insults and mockery instead, this time at my poor choice of online username. Granted, my username is indeed distasteful so I'll give him that, but I think we can safely eliminate the possibility of misunderstanding here and I don't think a smile from him would fix this at all.

The point of misunderstanding really isn't the issue. The issue is: Was everything done that could be done by BOTH parties that
could be done before the issue was made public? It certainly doesn't seem that way.


We're just going to have to agree to disagree.



John

[purplepencils]

I've bought from Mr Minuskin before and thankfully had no issue.

Aside from questions of representation, I think what was offensive was the subtle implication that it's actually the OP's problem and the sense that he had done the OP a huge favour by selling to him at that price (along the lines of, look that was a great bargain how dare you complain about a non-issue?). That's not the way one treats customers.

However, maybe "looking at it funny" was not the best way to go about things. He might have thought the OP was simply trying to cause trouble. In any case, it's best to be literal and clear when corresponding with a vendor about possible issues in the product.

[Jon Szanto]

However, maybe "looking at it funny" was not the best way to go about things. He might have thought the OP was simply trying to cause trouble. In any case, it's best to be literal and clear when corresponding with a vendor about possible issues in the product.

This.

The one, true way you can come out smelling like roses in any kind of retail transaction dispute is put all emotion and drama aside, and speak in a calm and business-like manner. Especially in electronic communication, the need for leaving out any hint of irony, humor, sarcasm, etc is so important - unless the person knows you well, a phrase that would cause both of you to chuckle if you were eye-to-eye can easily be misconstrued. Be plain, speak facts, get stuff accomplished.

[pluvia]

However, maybe "looking at it funny" was not the best way to go about things. He might have thought the OP was simply trying to cause trouble. In any case, it's best to be literal and clear when corresponding with a vendor about possible issues in the product.

This.

The one, true way you can come out smelling like roses in any kind of retail transaction dispute is put all emotion and drama aside, and speak in a calm and business-like manner. Especially in electronic communication, the need for leaving out any hint of irony, humor, sarcasm, etc is so important - unless the person knows you well, a phrase that would cause both of you to chuckle if you were eye-to-eye can easily be misconstrued. Be plain, speak facts, get stuff accomplished.
All I did was asking a question though. Beside that joke, the rest was pretty much courteous IMO. And seriously, should vendors be held up to the same standards as customers? I think not.

[Jon Szanto]

Beside that joke, the rest was pretty much courteous IMO.

Well, exactly my point. Your "joke" didn't come across as such, and caused the other party to become defensive.


And seriously, should vendors be held up to the same standards as customers? I think not.

I'm not quite certain you've typed exactly what you mean to say. I will just state that I believe all parties should be held to the same, high standards. And, if you'll note, you are offering excuses for your own part in this, and I am not accepting excuses from either party. I also note that prior to this thread, you have not participated on the FPG forums, so I don't have any kind of track record of your own behavior. In the immortal words of Walter White: "Tread carefully."

[pluvia]

Well, exactly my point. Your "joke" didn't come across as such, and caused the other party to become defensive.


And seriously, should vendors be held up to the same standards as customers? I think not.

I'm not quite certain you've typed exactly what you mean to say. I will just state that I believe all parties should be held to the same, high standards. And, if you'll note, you are offering excuses for your own part in this, and I am not accepting excuses from either party. I also note that prior to this thread, you have not participated on the FPG forums, so I don't have any kind of track record of your own behavior. In the immortal words of Walter White: "Tread carefully."
I can see where you're coming from and I respect your opinion, but I cannot agree with that. Further discussion between us will certainly run in circle of us arguing back and forth about "joke" so let's cease it here and agree to disagree. I would like to keep this feedback limited to how Mr Minuskin responded to my issue. Reader of this feedback will have to decide for themselves whether his attitude was justified or not.

I posted this thread on fpgeeks per dannzeman's recommendation from a similar thread on the subreddit /r/fountainpens (of which I am an active member). You can find the thread and more opinions about this matter in the following link http://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/2maet8/so_greg_minuskin_is_kind_of_an_ass/

[Jon Szanto]

I posted this thread on fpgeeks per dannzeman's recommendation from a similar thread on the subreddit /r/fountainpens (of which I am an active member). You can find the thread and more opinions about this matter in the following link http://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/2maet8/so_greg_minuskin_is_kind_of_an_ass/

In this case, I completely rescind my comment about your 'new' status here. Obviously, I was unaware of this connection. As to the other, certainly, I won't press the matter. Do keep in mind, however, that any commentary offered up on a public forum is open game for discussion. It takes two to tango.

[mhosea]

I'm afraid I'm more interested in getting the problem fixed for the OP so that he'll be happy with the pen. Fortunately, ainterne has supplied the critical information. I'm slightly embarrassed that I didn't notice it when I looked at the pictures myself.

[pengeezer]

I'm afraid I'm more interested in getting the problem fixed for the OP so that he'll be happy with the pen. Fortunately, ainterne has supplied the critical information. I'm slightly embarrassed that I didn't notice it when I looked at the pictures myself.

My sentiments exactly. One of my bosses years ago had a plaque on his desk that read,"Failure on your part doesn't constitute
an emergency on mine" .



John

[KBeezie]

I have some doubts that customers around the time the pen was made (or nearly any time before the 90s) would have tolerated a pen just simply leaking on them. All of my restored vintage pens have not just leaked on me. If I did have a problem with a restoration Sean or anyone else I've worked with would have offered to take a look at the pen and see if they could fix the problem, which could even just be a simple nib/feed seating issue (ie: nib too far out, feed to far in, etc etc). At the very least they'd be diplomatic about it, and wouldn't start getting firm until after a few back and forths.

Being blunt or short is nothing new, I'm just concerned that a restoration 'expert' is going to blame the pen being vintage from just leaking. He does restorations, "Sometimes they just leak" isn't really an acceptable answer anymore than a modern pen just leaking (especially when I consider a number of modern pens to be inferior in workmanship to the vintage ones that have survived, and then been restored back to working condition).

[Deb]

I have some doubts that customers around the time the pen was made (or nearly any time before the 90s) would have tolerated a pen just simply leaking on them. All of my restored vintage pens have not just leaked on me. If I did have a problem with a restoration Sean or anyone else I've worked with would have offered to take a look at the pen and see if they could fix the problem, which could even just be a simple nib/feed seating issue (ie: nib too far out, feed to far in, etc etc). At the very least they'd be diplomatic about it, and wouldn't start getting firm until after a few back and forths.

Being blunt or short is nothing new, I'm just concerned that a restoration 'expert' is going to blame the pen being vintage from just leaking. He does restorations, "Sometimes they just leak" isn't really an acceptable answer anymore than a modern pen just leaking (especially when I consider a number of modern pens to be inferior in workmanship to the vintage ones that have survived, and then been restored back to working condition).

I couldn't agree more. I'm a restorer myself, and I would regard "sometimes they just leak" as an admission of failure. If they leak you fix it. Fountain pens are simple mechanisms and there are only so many causes of leaking.

[Flounder]

(God, I have to install some sort of form saving Firefox add on to get round this autologout bizney. Let's see if I can remember).

Thanks OP, informative thread.

If we separate the two issues into sales and aftersales:

Sales
It's worth bearing in mind that this particular pen doesn't fully reflect the seller's service as a restorer one way or the other; "ALL I DID WAS TO CHECK OUT THE NIB, AND PUT A NEW INK SAC IN FOR YOU!". This is a leaky pen with a fresh ink sac, not a leaky pen purported to be 'fully restored' or even 'in working order'.

Aftersales (Putting aside the tone/personality issues)

From reading his replies to the OP's emails, it is clear that Greg Minuskin's aftersales policy in this instance does not extend to repairing faulty pens, only a return & refund. I would like to ask whether this applies to all the pens he sells, for future consideration. Perhaps a clarification of this policy on his sales pages would be beneficial.




ainterne's input was a familiar read.

[Neo]

Here's my e-mail exchange from an experience from Greg....read from the bottom up for chronological order to messages (sorry) After this exchange, I felt belittled and extremely annoyed as this was literally my first vintage pen. In addition, as I had said earlier, when I set it to someone else for service, I was informed that the filling system was not in working order and Diamine is not a caustic ink. Since my rescuer is active on this forum, I will let him reveal himself if he so chooses. However, if he had not intervened, my exploration into vintage pens would have been an extremely short one. Thankfully, the many people I've had communications with on this forum since the exchange below has convinced me that Greg's behavior puts him in the minority.




From: greg@gregminuskin.com
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 08:08:51 -0700


Dear J,

You filled the pen with caustic, non-factory ink, and have clogged now the filling system. The pen will need to be serviced, or cleaned, depending on the damage done.

Sorry, I can’t assist you this weekend on the phone; as I suggested earlier, you need to watch a video on how to fill these pens; below is a link to a video on how to fill a Vacumatic pen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F2-Ift1mYg


Greg Minuskin


On Jul 12, 2014, at 7:39 AM, j wrote:

That's what I did.

Just curious, am I supposed to see the barrel fill with ink? That was what I was expecting and it didn't happen. I was trying to fill with Diamine Rustic Brown and a little green bubble came out of the breather hole in the nib when I pulled it out. I was then able to write about half a single spaced page in a composition notebook before needing to refill.
It may be easier to talk, if you can call me after 7PM EST or let me know that I can call you it would be very much appreciated. If this is normal then please just let me know so my expectations are more realistic. In any case, the pen writes great. It's smooth and there is no skipping.

Than you for your time,

Dear J,

You need to unscrew the back end of the pen, push the pump while having the whole black section of the nib part of the feed in the ink, pump until very little air bubbles are in the ink, screw on the back end, wipe, and you are done.

Very easy!

I suggest you look at a few You Tube videos for pen care and maintenance, plus filling instructions.

Greg Minuskin
greg@gregminuskin.com
www.gregminuskin.com


On Jul 11, 2014, at 8:33 PM, j wrote:

Early 2 banded Parker vacumatic.

Thanks for your email. Can you refresh me on what pen you bought? Thanks.

Sincerely,

Greg Minuskin
greg@gregminuskin.com
www.gregminuskin.com

On Jul 11, 2014, at 7:54 PM, j wrote:

Hello,

I received the pen and it looks great. However, this is my first vintage pen and I am wondering if you have any tips on things to do or not do that may differ from modern pens (like a TWSBI.) I am also having a bit of trouble with filling the chamber, so far it writes great as a dip pen. How far do I have to submerge the nib before pushing the plunger?

Thanks,

J

[Flounder]

Is this the verbatim exchange of emails? I find it hard to understand the basis of Mr. Minuskin's remote diagnosis based on the correspondence above.

I use Diamine ink most of the time in all of my pens, including vacumatic 51s.

I do not want "caustic, non-factory ink" near my vintage pens, they're very dear to me, so I emailed Diamine last night to ask about Rustic Brown. They've replied that Rustic Brown is "completely non-toxic and is manufactured in exactly the same way as the rest of our fountain pen inks". Nor is Rustic Brown outsourced; "All the Diamine range of fountain pen ink products are manufactured in our factory in Liverpool."

Diamine make one iron gall ink, "which is Registrar`s Ink, this is an archival ink and can be used in a fountain pen, however, extra cleaning/flushing is recommended with this ink". I don't use iron galls, but can't imagine even this would clog a vacumatic filler in the course of one day as suggested above.

Choose your truth, I suppose. Diamine have been making ink since 1864.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Mr Minuskin is not the first restorer that I have encountered who gets aggresively defensive when asked questions that may be perceived as critical. Won't be the last either I daresay.

Another thing to consider: vintage pens were - I would imagine - reasonably reliable instruments for their day. Is it reasonable to expect that reliability to be as good 50, 60, 70 or even 100 years later? I think not. That a lot of them are still fairly reliable is a testament to the quality of manufacture and, in a lot of cases, the care with which they were kept and used by earlier owners.

[Deb]

Mr Minuskin is not the first restorer that I have encountered who gets aggresively defensive when asked questions that may be perceived as critical. Won't be the last either I daresay.

Another thing to consider: vintage pens were - I would imagine - reasonably reliable instruments for their day. Is it reasonable to expect that reliability to be as good 50, 60, 70 or even 100 years later? I think not. That a lot of them are still fairly reliable is a testament to the quality of manufacture and, in a lot of cases, the care with which they were kept and used by earlier owners.

A well-restored vintage pen is completely reliable. Why wouldn't it be?

[Neo]

Is this the verbatim exchange of emails? I find it hard to understand the basis of Mr. Minuskin's remote diagnosis based on the correspondence above.

I use Diamine ink most of the time in all of my pens, including vacumatic 51s.

I do not want "caustic, non-factory ink" near my vintage pens, they're very dear to me, so I emailed Diamine last night to ask about Rustic Brown. They've replied that Rustic Brown is "completely non-toxic and is manufactured in exactly the same way as the rest of our fountain pen inks". Nor is Rustic Brown outsourced; "All the Diamine range of fountain pen ink products are manufactured in our factory in Liverpool."

Diamine make one iron gall ink, "which is Registrar`s Ink, this is an archival ink and can be used in a fountain pen, however, extra cleaning/flushing is recommended with this ink". I don't use iron galls, but can't imagine even this would clog a vacumatic filler in the course of one day as suggested above.

Choose your truth, I suppose. Diamine have been making ink since 1864.

Yes, the emails were just copied and then pasted.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

A well-restored vintage pen is completely reliable. Why wouldn't it be?

Materials age. Unless they are replaced they will eventually fail. Some quicker than others (look at Dorics for example)

[mhosea]

I find it hard to understand the basis of Mr. Minuskin's remote diagnosis based on the correspondence above.


His basis is irrelevant because his remote diagnosis proved to be completely wrong.

This ink business is tricky because there may be a kernel of truth. That is to say, there may be a list of "boutique" inks that for some particular reasons are latex-hostile, perhaps requiring certain conditions for a problem to manifest. In this matter Greg needs to take a page from Rick Propas' book (except that Rick actually likes Diamine in particular). Instead of making claims that might prove either true or false, Rick just says: "Please note: the use of Private Reserve or Noodlers' inks will void The PENguin warranty. I cannot be responsible for pens in which those inks have been used." This is a simple statement of policy. It makes no claims that might someday prove to be right or wrong. It just is.

I might add that, while I use Noodler's, Private Reserve, and Diamine inks, I know of some Noodler's and PR inks that I myself will not use in a fountain pen (e.g. Noodler's Qin Shi Huang and PR Candy Apple Red, for example). It's a short list for me, easily maintained, but being on the other side of the fence having to deal with potential warranty returns and not knowing what these ink makers are going to come up with next, I can well understand the benefit of making the policy simple and easy to follow.

[mhosea]

A well-restored vintage pen is completely reliable. Why wouldn't it be?

Materials age. Unless they are replaced they will eventually fail. Some quicker than others (look at Dorics for example)

Some parts have finite lifespans and so have to be replaced, but if the pen is "well-restored", as Deb put it, it will be "reliable" in its operation. I like cartridge-converters, but it's not like they last all that long. Same thing. The principal limitation that I see occurs when the plastics have become brittle. I've lost a couple of blue Parker VS's to this. You don't want to subject vintage pens to rough treatment because it's hard to know how resilient some of these plastics still are. Whereas once you might have been able to drop them and expect nothing more than a scratch, they might now chip and break. Yet, in most cases, with careful handling these pens will continue to work indefinitely, so long as the parts with finite lifespans are updated at the required intervals.

[Flounder]

I find it hard to understand the basis of Mr. Minuskin's remote diagnosis based on the correspondence above.


His basis is irrelevant because his remote diagnosis proved to be completely wrong.



For me, the basis of his remote diagnosis ("trying to fill with Diamine Rustic Brown and a little green bubble came out of the breather hole in the nib when I pulled it out. I was then able to write about half a single spaced page in a composition notebook before needing to refill" = "You filled the pen with caustic, non-factory ink, and have clogged now the filling system. The pen will need to be serviced, or cleaned, depending on the damage done." is relevant in terms of professional competence.

Erroneous diagnosis or not, if there's a rational basis that can be explained, fine. If it's a baseless diagnosis, as Diamine's response would indicate, that has a bearing when considering Greg's services, given this example.

[Farmboy]

Slightly off topic but I'm curious about what Diamine told you. I have asked several manufacturers of ink about the formulation and I have always been essentially told 'trade secret' in a very polished manner. Having enough analytical equipment an by disposal to run a small University, I could without a doubt confirm I was just passed off with a BS answer.

Farmboy

[mhosea]

is relevant in terms of professional competence.

I didn't quite mean it the way you took it. I meant, rather, that this line of questioning was a dry hole. Greg's been pushing the "boutique inks are evil" agenda for a long time now, and it's been discussed to death. AFAIK, Greg is an expert in nib retipping and crack repair. I have no idea whether I've pissed him off enough by the way I've responded to these things here and in the past, but I personally would NOT hesitate to have him re-tip a nib or a repair a nib crack. If I bought a vintage pen from him, however, I would only expect that the nib was in whatever condition that he said it was in. Me personally, I wouldn't think of it as a "restored" pen. I don't perceive any conflict here in the sense that I do believe a person can be one of the world's best in one thing and not in another.

[Deb]

A well-restored vintage pen is completely reliable. Why wouldn't it be?

Materials age. Unless they are replaced they will eventually fail. Some quicker than others (look at Dorics for example)

Quite so, but that's hardly relevant to the present discussion. We're not talking about a Doric or one of the more fragile celluloid Watermans. In any case, don't you think that a responsible repairer will take that into account when he decides whether or not a pen is fit to be offered for sale? Most vintage pens, of whatever age, are not in any danger of imminent materials failure.

[heraclitus682]

I bought a pen from Greg and the tipping fell off. I wouldn't buy anything from Greg.

[Farmboy]

I bought a pen from Greg and the tipping fell off. I wouldn't buy anything from Greg.

Was the nib retipped; a modified nib; or just an old nib?

Also curious how the tipping fell off. While writing or filling or ? I've had tipping pop off on more than one occasion while doing repairs, usually I can determine why the tipping weld failed but sometimes it is a mystery.

[Neo]

I bought a pen from Greg and the tipping fell off. I wouldn't buy anything from Greg.

Was this tipping that he had applied?

[mmahany]

So let’s assess the information in this thread so we can learn what to expect before you buy from him.

What you get:
-Prompt shipping times
-Prompt response times to questions or concerns
-The item you purchased, or a full refund
-Greg also seems to stay current with what his customers are saying by monitoring various web forums.

What you do not get:
-A warm and/or touchy feeling

Conclusion: You’re going to get exactly what you purchased or a full refund.

Maybe I’m crazy, but that sounds pretty dam* good to me. If every company had that return policy, I’d be a very happy man.

Now I have zero affiliation with Greg Minuskin nor do I have personal experience buying from him. However the only real negative I see from this thread is that Greg Minuskin has customers who are very high maintenance.

Now I can appreciate rapport and empathy from businesses. However, I know when or when not to expect it. Buying goods online is not one of those instances. It may be a nice touch, but I don't get angry when Amazon.com doesn't ask me about how my day is going.

Bottom line: you have every right to not be unhappy with your experience and buy from someone else in the future. However, let’s make sure people understand that it was only because you didn’t like the wording of his emails….seems petty, but that’s just me.

[pluvia]

So let’s assess the information in this thread so we can learn what to expect before you buy from him.

What you get:
-Prompt shipping times
-Prompt response times to questions or concerns
-The item you purchased, or a full refund
-Greg also seems to stay current with what his customers are saying by monitoring various web forums.

What you do not get:
-A warm and/or touchy feeling

Conclusion: You’re going to get exactly what you purchased or a full refund.

Maybe I’m crazy, but that sounds pretty dam* good to me. If every company had that return policy, I’d be a very happy man.

Now I have zero affiliation with Greg Minuskin nor do I have personal experience buying from him. However the only real negative I see from this thread is that Greg Minuskin has customers who are very high maintenance.

Now I can appreciate rapport and empathy from businesses. However, I know when or when not to expect it. Buying goods online is not one of those instances. It may be a nice touch, but I don't get angry when Amazon.com doesn't ask me about how my day is going.

Bottom line: you have every right to not be unhappy with your experience and buy from someone else in the future. However, let’s make sure people understand that it was only because you didn’t like the wording of his emails….seems petty, but that’s just me.

That's ignoring quite a lot of stuff, like:
- Misleading item description
- Shoddy restoration
- Excessive ego to the point of threatening legal ramifications for online criticism
- Lack of effort for maintaining relationship with customers
- Lazy personality with a huge tendency to jump to conclusion (often wrong)
- Waste of time on the customer's part

I'm sorry if I got spoiled by extremely good customer service offered by people like the Goulets and Brian Smith from Unique Obliques. Brian Smith once sent me detailed picture illustration to help me with adjusting my nib holder. I'd be pretty mad if he told me just return my damn holder for money back if I didn't like the way he set it instead. I'm spending money on a business, I expected to be treated with care and respect. Mr Minuskin gave me none of those.

[dannzeman]

So let’s assess the information in this thread so we can learn what to expect before you buy from him.

What you get:
-Prompt shipping times
-Prompt response times to questions or concerns
-The item you purchased, or a full refund
-Greg also seems to stay current with what his customers are saying by monitoring various web forums.

What you do not get:
-A warm and/or touchy feeling

Conclusion: You’re going to get exactly what you purchased or a full refund.

Maybe I’m crazy, but that sounds pretty dam* good to me. If every company had that return policy, I’d be a very happy man.

Now I have zero affiliation with Greg Minuskin nor do I have personal experience buying from him. However the only real negative I see from this thread is that Greg Minuskin has customers who are very high maintenance.

Now I can appreciate rapport and empathy from businesses. However, I know when or when not to expect it. Buying goods online is not one of those instances. It may be a nice touch, but I don't get angry when Amazon.com doesn't ask me about how my day is going.

Bottom line: you have every right to not be unhappy with your experience and buy from someone else in the future. However, let’s make sure people understand that it was only because you didn’t like the wording of his emails….seems petty, but that’s just me.

That's ignoring quite a lot of stuff, like:
- Misleading item description
- Shoddy restoration
- Excessive ego to the point of threatening legal ramifications for online criticism
- Lack of effort for maintaining relationship with customers
- Lazy personality with a huge tendency to jump to conclusion (often wrong)
- Waste of time on the customer's part

I'm sorry if I got spoiled by extremely good customer service offered by people like the Goulets and Brian Smith from Unique Obliques. Brian Smith once sent me detailed picture illustration to help me with adjusting my nib holder. I'd be pretty mad if he told me just return my damn holder for money back if I didn't like the way he set it instead. I'm spending money on a business, I expected to be treated with care and respect. Mr Minuskin gave me none of those.

It seems we've discovered the fence and have enough information to determine which side each of us falls on. It looks like a good stopping point to me, but if anyone needs to continue the discussion then you're more than welcome to do so.

[Flounder]

Hang on, hang on.


What you get:
-Prompt shipping times
-Prompt response times to questions or concerns
-The item you purchased, or a full refund
-Greg also seems to stay current with what his customers are saying by monitoring various web forums.

What you do not get:
-A warm and/or touchy feeling

Conclusion: You’re going to get exactly what you purchased or a full refund.

I think that's a superficial conclusion. I've read this thread and the reddit links, and cannot conclude that you're going to get "exactly what you purchased or a full refund. "

You might get an accusation of damaging the pen yourself (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/9400-Greg-Minuskin-Quite-disappointed?p=103886&viewfull=1#post103886), and a rundown of 'repairs' that need carried out - at your expense (http://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/2maet8/so_greg_minuskin_is_kind_of_an_ass/cm2pfdq).

I say 'might' because Greg has yet to respond, so I'd rather this thread was left open to give him a chance to clarify some of the points made here.

[Flounder]

Slightly off topic but I'm curious about what Diamine told you. I have asked several manufacturers of ink about the formulation and I have always been essentially told 'trade secret' in a very polished manner. Having enough analytical equipment an by disposal to run a small University, I could without a doubt confirm I was just passed off with a BS answer.

Farmboy

I was quoting directly from the email. They were pretty fast in replying, using their contact page here (http://www.diamineinks.co.uk/ContactUs.aspx).

[dannzeman]

...so I'd rather this thread was left open to give him a chance to clarify some of the points made here.
Never said I was going to close the thread.

Also, please use the quote feature, it makes the post easier to read.

[Flounder]

Glad to hear it Dan. Ive edited the post above to make use of the quote feature.

[markc]

I hate to say this, but after having read the OPs post on Reddit first and then seeing it here, it really feels like a purposeful smear job of Mr. Menuskin.

I've met him a few times, and while not always the nicest personality, it's pretty darn good at what he does and he backs his work.

Rather than smear him on all public channels, why not be responsible and let him know how you feel about the communication and return the pen letting him know that you won't be doing business with him in the future.

After all, we are only seeing one side of the conversation (who knows how many emails truly transpired?)

Just my .02

[pluvia]

I hate to say this, but after having read the OPs post on Reddit first and then seeing it here, it really feels like a purposeful smear job of Mr. Menuskin.

I've met him a few times, and while not always the nicest personality, it's pretty darn good at what he does and he backs his work.

Rather than smear him on all public channels, why not be responsible and let him know how you feel about the communication and return the pen letting him know that you won't be doing business with him in the future.

After all, we are only seeing one side of the conversation (who knows how many emails truly transpired?)

Just my .02
I did communicate with him about my disappointment and promise him I would not do business with him again. Didn't take up the refund offer because while I disdain his service, I'm rather fond of that particular pen and willing to spend more money on restoring it.

My posts of course sound like a smear job because they are criticism. While some people might not be too happy with me taking a piss on people they like, I'm quite sure a few others would appreciate my feedback. Should I just send a strongly worded letter to a bad vendor next time and shut up about it then? What then is the purpose of this subforum?

There indeed are a few more emails between the two I posted. I'll paste them below to make everything transparent (a bit too long for screenshot). Mind you, they don't make him look any better.

On Nov 14, 2014, at 07:46, Mark, Minh Bui <xxx@gmail.com> wrote:

Greg,

I'm just wondering if this is normal, that's all. I'm still new to vintage pens so I have no frame of reference. Didn't expect this kind of response though.

Mark

On 2014/11/14, at 8:14, Greg Minuskin <greg@gregminuskin.com> wrote:

Dear Mark,

Yes normal for some vintage pens depending on how the have aged but if you are not at all happy like I said a full no questions refund is an option.

Let me know. Thanks!

Sincerely,

Greg Minuskin
www.greg@gregminuskin.com
greg@gregminuskin.com

On Nov 14, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Mark, Minh Bui <xxx@gmail.com> wrote:

Greg,

Thanks, that's all I need to know. I'll keep the offer in mind.

With Best Regards,

Mark


Dear Mark,

Returns are good for about 2 weeks, so let me know by then, thanks!

I informed the second person that was interested in the pen that it might come back to me; they immediately emailed me back and will wait patiently for your decision.

Sincerely,

Greg Minuskin
greg@gregminuskin.com
www.gregminuskin.com

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I think it is right to raise issues that may be of interest to other potential customers. Knowing what to expect is part of caveat emptor.

I am in a similar position with a restorer - quite well known - who swapped out a good Estie nib for a poor one. Acknowledged it as a simple bench-top error and agreed to send it back. Despite repeated emails requesting the return of my nib it has never been returned. Now I have given the pen away as it was unusable to me. What started out as an apparent mistake is now looking like a minor case of theft. I haven't outed the restorer as I am not sure that it is anyone's best interest to do so, though I am sorely tempted. However, if someone asked me privately whether that particular restorer was worth going to I would have no hesitation in giving the full story.

EDIT:

If the restorer is on these boards and is reading this then SHAME ON YOU!
You will get no recommendations from me.

[markc]

I did communicate with him about my disappointment and promise him I would not do business with him again. Didn't take up the refund offer because while I disdain his service, I'm rather fond of that particular pen and willing to spend more money on restoring it.

My posts of course sound like a smear job because they are criticism. While some people might not be too happy with me taking a piss on people they like, I'm quite sure a few others would appreciate my feedback. Should I just send a strongly worded letter to a bad vendor next time and shut up about it then? What then is the purpose of this subforum?



I'm not criticizing you for telling people of your poor experience with him, I'm only suggesting that going to numerous outlets to post this issue seems a bit harsher than need be. I have no ball in the game as I've only met him and not had a chance to use his services, but he has a reputation for doing good work and reputation is everything in this business.

What if you were in his shoes? How would you like this handled?

He's offered to take it in return and refund your purchase price. As far as any seller is concerned this is standard operating procedure. By your refusal to return the pen, you are not giving him the chance to make it right.

Frankly, as far I can see, both parties are partially at fault and it's unfair to place all blame on one. He's right that vintage pens pose interesting problems and sometimes it takes a few trips to get the kinks worked out.

Just because you don't like how someone communicates with you, doesn't seem like a valid reason to smear their reputation.

[Farmboy]

Am I missing something in the most recent email exchange? It seems to me to be polite and business like on both sides.

I just don't get the jump from repeat customer to vitriol that seems to have occurred quickly in this case.

FB

[Jon Szanto]

We're living in a Yelp world, Farmboy. People play by Yelp's rules now. The anonymity of the glass give strength to the weakest person, and woe be to the vendor who isn't poised, 24 hours a day, to respond to... yelping.

[pluvia]

What if you were in his shoes? How would you like this handled?

He's offered to take it in return and refund your purchase price. As far as any seller is concerned this is standard operating procedure. By your refusal to return the pen, you are not giving him the chance to make it right.

Frankly, as far I can see, both parties are partially at fault and it's unfair to place all blame on one. He's right that vintage pens pose interesting problems and sometimes it takes a few trips to get the kinks worked out.

Just because you don't like how someone communicates with you, doesn't seem like a valid reason to smear their reputation.

Idk, "please send the pend back, I'll take a look at it and I'll refund if there's nothing I can do?"

Communication is part of customer service too, and I'm not sure how giving negative feedback on that is "smearing reputation."


Am I missing something in the most recent email exchange? It seems to me to be polite and business like on both sides.

I just don't get the jump from repeat customer to vitriol that seems to have occurred quickly in this case.

FB

It's quite civil, though Mr Minuskin established pretty clearly in his emails that he did not need to retain me as a customer. I was rather disappointed and offended. It's pretty hard to stay loyal to a vendor after that.

[markc]

We're living in a Yelp world, Farmboy. People play by Yelp's rules now. The anonymity of the glass give strength to the weakest person, and woe be to the vendor who isn't poised, 24 hours a day, to respond to... yelping.

At least Yelp gives the vendor the opportunity to pay them to remove a bad review. :-D

[TheRealScubaSteve]

I hate to say this, but after having read the OPs post on Reddit first and then seeing it here, it really feels like a purposeful smear job of Mr. Menuskin.

I've met him a few times, and while not always the nicest personality, it's pretty darn good at what he does and he backs his work.

Rather than smear him on all public channels, why not be responsible and let him know how you feel about the communication and return the pen letting him know that you won't be doing business with him in the future.

After all, we are only seeing one side of the conversation (who knows how many emails truly transpired?)

Just my .02

There are indeed two sides to every story, but I do not that that the OP is smearing his reputation. Let's not forget he gave Greg the links so that he could reply if he so desired. It seems there are many forums in the fountain pen world and I've only ever visited two. If this story (and the several others) were not posted on one of those two, I'd have never heard about them. Is the criticism harsh? I don't think so. It's not favorable by any stretch, but as a buyer I expect a whole lot more than snide refund offers.

His apparent gruff personality seems to be well documented by many posters here. This has nothing to do with his ability, but it does speak to his business and how he treats customers, whether he does so knowingly or not. This would not necessarily steer me away as a first time buyer so long as I knew what I was bargaining for ahead of time. However, in conjunction with his unwillingness to look into a customer's problem, I would be extremely hesitant to deal with such a seller.

A responsible restorer in my view should have first offered to look at and rectify the problem. If that does not satisfy, then a refund would be in order. I find it interesting that his refund policy is "about two weeks," with yet another reminder that another buyer is in line. I for one appreciate the feedback. It not only speaks to Greg's business, but also outlines the importance of doing research on any restorer no matter how reputable.

[Neo]

I hate to say this, but after having read the OPs post on Reddit first and then seeing it here, it really feels like a purposeful smear job of Mr. Menuskin.

I've met him a few times, and while not always the nicest personality, it's pretty darn good at what he does and he backs his work.


Rather than smear him on all public channels, why not be responsible and let him know how you feel about the communication and return the pen letting him know that you won't be doing business with him in the future.

After all, we are only seeing one side of the conversation (who knows how many emails truly transpired?)

Just my .02


As did I and was accused of clogging the filling system.

[david i]

I'll let my email exchange with him speak for itself

http://i.imgur.com/V06f1LH.png

I've been buying pens from Mr Minuskin for the last 2 years so needless to say I was quite disappointed, even offended to be treated this way. Granted, he offered a refund, but the refund was not in the line of "sorry for the trouble," but "go away I don't need your business." He has his wish, I will not return.

This is the pen in question http://gregminuskin.com/?p=14830. Notice he doesn't mention the problem anywhere in the listing. The pen is not a wet noodle either, semi flex at best, though I was aware of that at the time of purchasing.

Hi,

While anyone-- on either side of a business dealing-- can have a huge range of personal/ethical/professional lapses, I suspect there is a bit of "internet syndrome" going on with this exchange. Tongue-in-cheek does not always convey absent inflection and expression. As one who often sees the quirky in the world around me and responds to it by poking at the quirks, I can see what is happening.

While you were-- i assume-- attempting to convey that your pen was not holding onto ink well, your verbiage no doubt generates a vision of spontaneous pen eruptions, a pen so anxious and insecure that when looked at the wrong way, it just spews. And, it likely is the case that this cannot be fixed with Valium, unlike people who have that problem.

Looking at Greg's note-- and again recognizing that graciousness in business dealings always is a good idea-- i very much envision him seeing your commentary and being distracted (as I would be) by entertaining visions of exploding anxious pens, perhaps distracted a bit from the reality that you are having actual trouble with something you'd bought from him (Hey, that indeed can happen with any pen sold. I have my share of dogs as a seller too. Everyone does).

In retrospect, and with Monday morning quarterbacking, he might have done better to acknowledge your concern rather than emphasizing ability to re-sell your pen easily. But, those of us who see the funny side to life easily could have been distracted by the-- to paraphrase-- spontaneous spewing element to your description.

As to "mentioning the problem in his listing", this is a bit of an inappropriate complaint. Unless you are asserting (feel free to do so, if you wish), that Greg sold the pen deliberately, knowing it had a problem and trying to hide that problem, he could not have cited the problem in the listing. Problems such as this often are identified post-market. Even if the pen was filled, not just dipped, for writing testing before being listed, it was not likely to be left filled for couple days, tossed about, opened and closed, on outside chance it was flooding.

regards

david

[david i]

I bought a pen from Greg and the tipping fell off. I wouldn't buy anything from Greg.

I bought an old Parker with original tipping. The tipping fell off. I'll never buy another Parker. Oh... wait... actually I will ;)

-d

[david i]

So let’s assess the information in this thread so we can learn what to expect before you buy from him.

What you get:
-Prompt shipping times
-Prompt response times to questions or concerns
-The item you purchased, or a full refund
-Greg also seems to stay current with what his customers are saying by monitoring various web forums.

What you do not get:
-A warm and/or touchy feeling

Conclusion: You’re going to get exactly what you purchased or a full refund.

Maybe I’m crazy, but that sounds pretty dam* good to me. If every company had that return policy, I’d be a very happy man.

Now I have zero affiliation with Greg Minuskin nor do I have personal experience buying from him. However the only real negative I see from this thread is that Greg Minuskin has customers who are very high maintenance.

Now I can appreciate rapport and empathy from businesses. However, I know when or when not to expect it. Buying goods online is not one of those instances. It may be a nice touch, but I don't get angry when Amazon.com doesn't ask me about how my day is going.

Bottom line: you have every right to not be unhappy with your experience and buy from someone else in the future. However, let’s make sure people understand that it was only because you didn’t like the wording of his emails….seems petty, but that’s just me.

That's ignoring quite a lot of stuff, like:
- Misleading item description
- Shoddy restoration
- Excessive ego to the point of threatening legal ramifications for online criticism
- Lack of effort for maintaining relationship with customers
- Lazy personality with a huge tendency to jump to conclusion (often wrong)
- Waste of time on the customer's part

I'm sorry if I got spoiled by extremely good customer service offered by people like the Goulets and Brian Smith from Unique Obliques. Brian Smith once sent me detailed picture illustration to help me with adjusting my nib holder. I'd be pretty mad if he told me just return my damn holder for money back if I didn't like the way he set it instead. I'm spending money on a business, I expected to be treated with care and respect. Mr Minuskin gave me none of those.


I'll offer a reality check.

"Misleading item description" in this case is irrelevant, as the issue in play generally will not be identified until a post-sales setting. Any pen sold by any retailer who has not used the pen at length is at risk for the cited problem, so any retail pen essentially is at risk for this same bit of "misleadingness' rendering that complaint pointless.

"Shoddy restoration". There is no evidence of a shoddiness. Restorations by any restorer can fail, prove insufficient, need further tweaking. I've worked with most of the great restorers, some before they became restorers to the masses, and none has avoided having had a pen here and there returned by me for a second evaluation.

"Lack of effort to maintain relationship with customers". Nonspecific. 1% of customers? All customers? How well did the customer work to maintain relationship with restorer?

"Lazy personality". Ad Hominem insult. Is your personality so good?

"Waste of time on customer's part". Well, really, too bad. We all waste time here and there. One can argue hobbies in general were developed to help us waste excess time.

"Excessive ego". Pot/Kettle. That sort?

And so forth.

I remain with notion that pen restoration is not a 100% process for anyone, that flippancy was encouraged by the original letter, that refund was promptly offered. After that, it's all Sturm und Drang.

-d

[david i]

Am I missing something in the most recent email exchange? It seems to me to be polite and business like on both sides.

I just don't get the jump from repeat customer to vitriol that seems to have occurred quickly in this case.

FB

I have both hope and expectation that this series of exchanges actually will generate more business for Greg.

regards

-david

[mhosea]

that flippancy was encouraged by the original letter


Lightness of mood was encouraged by the original letter, and Greg got it. He was light. I do not believe that any of the flippancy (vis-a-vis resell to a customer who won't have the problem) was encouraged by the OP, nor need it have been to occur.

[Cob]

Well I have read through these four pages, and for what it's worth will add my thoughts.

The original poster wrote a very silly message.

I would write:

Dear Sir,

I have received the pen; it does not work properly (details etc.).

I await your coments.

Yours &c.

However, all that stuff in the response about "I have another customer etc." is out of order. The seller has forgotten that he has completed a sale - a contract if you will - and in my view, is honour-bound to provide a satisfactory service to his customer.

This he has not done, and for those who feel that the offer of a refund is enough, well I disagree 100%.

Cob

[david i]

Offering to refund a dysfunctional item is an acceptable moral approach to dealing with that flawed sales item.

regards

david

[pengeezer]

So let’s assess the information in this thread so we can learn what to expect before you buy from him.

What you get:
-Prompt shipping times
-Prompt response times to questions or concerns
-The item you purchased, or a full refund
-Greg also seems to stay current with what his customers are saying by monitoring various web forums.

What you do not get:
-A warm and/or touchy feeling

Conclusion: You’re going to get exactly what you purchased or a full refund.

Maybe I’m crazy, but that sounds pretty dam* good to me. If every company had that return policy, I’d be a very happy man.

Now I have zero affiliation with Greg Minuskin nor do I have personal experience buying from him. However the only real negative I see from this thread is that Greg Minuskin has customers who are very high maintenance.

Now I can appreciate rapport and empathy from businesses. However, I know when or when not to expect it. Buying goods online is not one of those instances. It may be a nice touch, but I don't get angry when Amazon.com doesn't ask me about how my day is going.

Bottom line: you have every right to not be unhappy with your experience and buy from someone else in the future. However, let’s make sure people understand that it was only because you didn’t like the wording of his emails….seems petty, but that’s just me.

That's ignoring quite a lot of stuff, like:
- Misleading item description
- Shoddy restoration
- Excessive ego to the point of threatening legal ramifications for online criticism
- Lack of effort for maintaining relationship with customers
- Lazy personality with a huge tendency to jump to conclusion (often wrong)
- Waste of time on the customer's part

I'm sorry if I got spoiled by extremely good customer service offered by people like the Goulets and Brian Smith from Unique Obliques. Brian Smith once sent me detailed picture illustration to help me with adjusting my nib holder. I'd be pretty mad if he told me just return my damn holder for money back if I didn't like the way he set it instead. I'm spending money on a business, I expected to be treated with care and respect. Mr Minuskin gave me none of those.


I'll offer a reality check.

"Misleading item description" in this case is irrelevant, as the issue in play generally will not be identified until a post-sales setting. Any pen sold by any retailer who has not used the pen at length is at risk for the cited problem, so any retail pen essentially is at risk for this same bit of "misleadingness' rendering that complaint pointless.

"Shoddy restoration". There is no evidence of a shoddiness. Restorations by any restorer can fail, prove insufficient, need further tweaking. I've worked with most of the great restorers, some before they became restorers to the masses, and none has avoided having had a pen here and there returned by me for a second evaluation.

"Lack of effort to maintain relationship with customers". Nonspecific. 1% of customers? All customers? How well did the customer work to maintain relationship with restorer?

"Lazy personality". Ad Hominem insult. Is your personality so good?

"Waste of time on customer's part". Well, really, too bad. We all waste time here and there. One can argue hobbies in general were developed to help us waste excess time.

"Excessive ego". Pot/Kettle. That sort?

And so forth.

I remain with notion that pen restoration is not a 100% process for anyone, that flippancy was encouraged by the original letter, that refund was promptly offered. After that, it's all Sturm und Drang.

-d

This was what I alluded to in my previous comments.



John

[mmahany]

What then is the purpose of this subforum?

I didn't see it addressed, but this is a great question that deserves to be answered.

The purpose of this subforum is to provide facts.

We don't care what you think of the person who did the work. His personality is not being reviewed, his work is.

[Jon Szanto]

/redacted

I proffered a personal opinion that, fortunately, a good friend pointed out was in conflict with the stated rules of this sub-forum. I have left this in place to indicate I had posted, but removed the erroneous material.

[Jon Szanto]

I didn't see it addressed, but this is a great question that deserves to be answered.

From the Market Feedback Rules:
The purpose of this subforum is to provide facts. We don't care what you think of the person who did the work. His personality is not being reviewed, his work is.


It would have helped for you to place the above in a quotation, as I did for you. It appeared that you were speaking for yourself, as opposed to directly quoting the stated forum rules. Best to be clear.

[TheRealScubaSteve]

So let’s assess the information in this thread so we can learn what to expect before you buy from him.

What you get:
-Prompt shipping times
-Prompt response times to questions or concerns
-The item you purchased, or a full refund
-Greg also seems to stay current with what his customers are saying by monitoring various web forums.

What you do not get:
-A warm and/or touchy feeling

Conclusion: You’re going to get exactly what you purchased or a full refund.

Maybe I’m crazy, but that sounds pretty dam* good to me. If every company had that return policy, I’d be a very happy man.

Now I have zero affiliation with Greg Minuskin nor do I have personal experience buying from him. However the only real negative I see from this thread is that Greg Minuskin has customers who are very high maintenance.

Now I can appreciate rapport and empathy from businesses. However, I know when or when not to expect it. Buying goods online is not one of those instances. It may be a nice touch, but I don't get angry when Amazon.com doesn't ask me about how my day is going.

Bottom line: you have every right to not be unhappy with your experience and buy from someone else in the future. However, let’s make sure people understand that it was only because you didn’t like the wording of his emails….seems petty, but that’s just me.

That's ignoring quite a lot of stuff, like:
- Misleading item description
- Shoddy restoration
- Excessive ego to the point of threatening legal ramifications for online criticism
- Lack of effort for maintaining relationship with customers
- Lazy personality with a huge tendency to jump to conclusion (often wrong)
- Waste of time on the customer's part

I'm sorry if I got spoiled by extremely good customer service offered by people like the Goulets and Brian Smith from Unique Obliques. Brian Smith once sent me detailed picture illustration to help me with adjusting my nib holder. I'd be pretty mad if he told me just return my damn holder for money back if I didn't like the way he set it instead. I'm spending money on a business, I expected to be treated with care and respect. Mr Minuskin gave me none of those.


I'll offer a reality check.

"Misleading item description" in this case is irrelevant, as the issue in play generally will not be identified until a post-sales setting. Any pen sold by any retailer who has not used the pen at length is at risk for the cited problem, so any retail pen essentially is at risk for this same bit of "misleadingness' rendering that complaint pointless.

"Shoddy restoration". There is no evidence of a shoddiness. Restorations by any restorer can fail, prove insufficient, need further tweaking. I've worked with most of the great restorers, some before they became restorers to the masses, and none has avoided having had a pen here and there returned by me for a second evaluation.

"Lack of effort to maintain relationship with customers". Nonspecific. 1% of customers? All customers? How well did the customer work to maintain relationship with restorer?

"Lazy personality". Ad Hominem insult. Is your personality so good?

"Waste of time on customer's part". Well, really, too bad. We all waste time here and there. One can argue hobbies in general were developed to help us waste excess time.

"Excessive ego". Pot/Kettle. That sort?

And so forth.

I remain with notion that pen restoration is not a 100% process for anyone, that flippancy was encouraged by the original letter, that refund was promptly offered. After that, it's all Sturm und Drang.

-d

It was a misleading item description. Irrelevant is whether or not Greg knew it at the time of the listing. A restored pen is expected to function well, is it not?

If I purchased a restored pen and discovered "insufficient," restoration, I sure as heck would call that shoddy. If it how a restorer handles the news that makes this ok or not. Mistakes happen, but you can't call a poor restoration "good."

Who cares about the percentage of customers. This is his story and it reflects on Greg's business as a whole, rightly or wrongly.

There was no flippancy in the OPs first e-mail. Even if there was, I would expect a businessman to be a bit more mature about it rather than belittle a customer.

[david i]

So let’s assess the information in this thread so we can learn what to expect before you buy from him.

What you get:
-Prompt shipping times
-Prompt response times to questions or concerns
-The item you purchased, or a full refund
-Greg also seems to stay current with what his customers are saying by monitoring various web forums.

What you do not get:
-A warm and/or touchy feeling

Conclusion: You’re going to get exactly what you purchased or a full refund.

Maybe I’m crazy, but that sounds pretty dam* good to me. If every company had that return policy, I’d be a very happy man.

Now I have zero affiliation with Greg Minuskin nor do I have personal experience buying from him. However the only real negative I see from this thread is that Greg Minuskin has customers who are very high maintenance.

Now I can appreciate rapport and empathy from businesses. However, I know when or when not to expect it. Buying goods online is not one of those instances. It may be a nice touch, but I don't get angry when Amazon.com doesn't ask me about how my day is going.

Bottom line: you have every right to not be unhappy with your experience and buy from someone else in the future. However, let’s make sure people understand that it was only because you didn’t like the wording of his emails….seems petty, but that’s just me.

That's ignoring quite a lot of stuff, like:
- Misleading item description
- Shoddy restoration
- Excessive ego to the point of threatening legal ramifications for online criticism
- Lack of effort for maintaining relationship with customers
- Lazy personality with a huge tendency to jump to conclusion (often wrong)
- Waste of time on the customer's part

I'm sorry if I got spoiled by extremely good customer service offered by people like the Goulets and Brian Smith from Unique Obliques. Brian Smith once sent me detailed picture illustration to help me with adjusting my nib holder. I'd be pretty mad if he told me just return my damn holder for money back if I didn't like the way he set it instead. I'm spending money on a business, I expected to be treated with care and respect. Mr Minuskin gave me none of those.


I'll offer a reality check.

"Misleading item description" in this case is irrelevant, as the issue in play generally will not be identified until a post-sales setting. Any pen sold by any retailer who has not used the pen at length is at risk for the cited problem, so any retail pen essentially is at risk for this same bit of "misleadingness' rendering that complaint pointless.

"Shoddy restoration". There is no evidence of a shoddiness. Restorations by any restorer can fail, prove insufficient, need further tweaking. I've worked with most of the great restorers, some before they became restorers to the masses, and none has avoided having had a pen here and there returned by me for a second evaluation.

"Lack of effort to maintain relationship with customers". Nonspecific. 1% of customers? All customers? How well did the customer work to maintain relationship with restorer?

"Lazy personality". Ad Hominem insult. Is your personality so good?

"Waste of time on customer's part". Well, really, too bad. We all waste time here and there. One can argue hobbies in general were developed to help us waste excess time.

"Excessive ego". Pot/Kettle. That sort?

And so forth.

I remain with notion that pen restoration is not a 100% process for anyone, that flippancy was encouraged by the original letter, that refund was promptly offered. After that, it's all Sturm und Drang.

-d

It was a misleading item description. Irrelevant is whether or not Greg knew it at the time of the listing. A restored pen is expected to function well, is it not?

If I purchased a restored pen and discovered "insufficient," restoration, I sure as heck would call that shoddy. If it how a restorer handles the news that makes this ok or not. Mistakes happen, but you can't call a poor restoration "good."

Who cares about the percentage of customers. This is his story and it reflects on Greg's business as a whole, rightly or wrongly.

There was no flippancy in the OPs first e-mail. Even if there was, I would expect a businessman to be a bit more mature about it rather than belittle a customer.

You show poor understanding of that which you read and appear to respond to yourself rather than to others.

I never argued the description by Greg could not have been misleading. Rather, it was pointed out by me that the misleading element is utterly irrelevant to this chat and indeed that any fountain pen sold by anyone can be assumed to possibly have the same problem, independent of ad text. Whether Greg knew it at the time arguably is relevant, and I await evidence from anyone that Greg knowingly sold a pen that spews ink because anyone gives it a funny look. Just sayin'...

At root, Steve, you must never order a used/restored old pen again. Indeed, you perhaps never should order any fountain pen again. Any one of them might flood and nearly none (perhaps absolutely none) of them will cite that in the ad. You indeed are out of luck in this hobby. If you want to sell your pen collection cheaply as you leave the hobby, I likely can work out something for you. I do buy collections. Remember, no more pens for you by mail.

I care about what "percentage of customers" in the prior chat, because that is a start in the direction of allowing any import to be derived from the sentence to which it referred, which otherwise was meaningless. Go figure.

There was flippancy in the OP's first email, as well acknowledged in this discussion. Recognizing that few things are 100% or absolute, I acknowledge that the OP might not have been writing in flippant fashion, but instead simply was delusional. I find it harsh of you to suggest the OP was actively psychotic. I invite anyone to rest any pen on a flat surface with stable environmental conditions and then cause it to spew ink by looking at it. Go figure.

Good luck with your expectations.

regards

-d

[Farmboy]

It was a misleading item description. Irrelevant is whether or not Greg knew it at the time of the listing. A restored pen is expected to function well, is it not?

If I purchased a restored pen and discovered "insufficient," restoration, I sure as heck would call that shoddy. If it how a restorer handles the news that makes this ok or not. Mistakes happen, but you can't call a poor restoration "good."

Who cares about the percentage of customers. This is his story and it reflects on Greg's business as a whole, rightly or wrongly.

There was no flippancy in the OPs first e-mail. Even if there was, I would expect a businessman to be a bit more mature about it rather than belittle a customer.

Just for clarity the description in the ad for the pen does not to my reading say it is restored, it says "ALL I DID WAS TO CHECK OUT THE NIB, AND PUT A NEW INK SAC IN FOR YOU!" It doesn't say restored. For convenience the text is copied below.


ALL I DID WAS TO CHECK OUT THE NIB, AND PUT A NEW INK SAC IN FOR YOU!

Check out this genuine full sterling silver Wahl extra fine wet noodle flex set!

Excellent Greek Key design, all the patina you could love, and matching sterling silver pencil too that works!

Sure, I could have polished off the patina, but some people like it! No, that is not damaged on the section, it is just tarnished.

Better act quickly to get this amazing wet noodle set, for at just $170.00 plus shipping, it will NOT LAST BUT MAYBE 20 MINUTES ON THIS WEBSITE!

[david i]

If I purchased a restored pen and discovered "insufficient," restoration, I sure as heck would call that shoddy. If it how a restorer handles the news that makes this ok or not. Mistakes happen, but you can't call a poor restoration "good."



Todd's point about your misinterpreting Gregg's ad text is well taken. That is a beginning.

I sure as heck note that you likely will have an unhappy time in our hobby based on your rather self indulgent expectations.

There certainly is room for "to each his own", but not infinite room.

I will assert that pens indeed can undergo what an overwhelming majority of restorers, retailers of old pens, well known and not so well known experts consider a solid core restoration, with a fair percentage requiring a second look despite the pursuit of methodical, careful, well recognized restoration steps during the first round.

Having had several thousand old pens restored the past 15 years, having worked with most of the great restorers, some of whom before they began to restore widely for the general public, I've had to ask them do a second look at many pens. I never found the work to have been shoddy. I am amenable to hearing though about a trend with Greg, that a concerning portion of pens he sells as "fully restored" turn out to have grave problems. Please do provide a hefty sampling.

Note that "You can't call a poor restoration 'good'" is an example of Tactic 4 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man".


If it how a restorer handles the news that makes this ok or not.

That is a bit of an odd sentence. Still, offering promptly to refund a pen that a buyer finds to be flawed (even if buyer is psychotic as you-- but not I-- suggest), certainly is "making ok" this news.

regards

-d

[mhosea]

Whether Greg knew it at the time arguably is relevant, and I await evidence from anyone that Greg knowingly sold a pen that spews ink because anyone gives it a funny look. Just sayin'...


I'm sure Greg had no idea that it leaked.



There was flippancy in the OP's first email, as well acknowledged in this discussion. Recognizing that few things are 100% or absolute, I acknowledge that the OP might not have been writing in flippant fashion, but instead simply was delusional. I find it harsh of you to suggest the OP was actively psychotic. I invite anyone to rest any pen on a flat surface with stable environmental conditions and then cause it to spew ink by looking at it. Go figure.


Ahem. "When I look at it funny" is a common figure of speech that indicates that the event actually seems to be spontaneous or to occur with infinitesimal provocation. I've heard it many, many times in my life, and I've never been confused by its meaning, nor do I recall it ever being considered "flippant" before now.

I do think the word "spews" was an unfortunate exaggeration. It made me think of a "burp", which led me to consider heating as the cause. But I now think ainterne has the right of it, and the pen would leak without provocation due to a poor air seal.

[david i]

I'm sure Greg had no idea that it leaked.



There was flippancy in the OP's first email, as well acknowledged in this discussion. Recognizing that few things are 100% or absolute, I acknowledge that the OP might not have been writing in flippant fashion, but instead simply was delusional. I find it harsh of you to suggest the OP was actively psychotic. I invite anyone to rest any pen on a flat surface with stable environmental conditions and then cause it to spew ink by looking at it. Go figure.


Ahem. "When I look at it funny" is a common figure of speech that indicates that the event actually seems to be spontaneous or to occur with infinitesimal provocation. I've heard it many, many times in my life, and I've never been confused by its meaning, nor do I recall it ever being considered "flippant" before now.

I do think the word "spews" was an unfortunate exaggeration. It made me think of a "burp", which led me to consider heating as the cause. But I now think ainterne has the right of it, and the pen would leak without provocation due to a poor air seal.

Hi Mike

Based on my acquaintanceship with Greg I quite agree he did not sell the pen expecting it to leak, but in the context of clarifying some folks' bleats about "misleading sales", I figured best to keep that which is possible under consideration, as a courtesy to the conversation. Really I wasn't doing that though as any favor to any actual person in the chat.

As to "Ahem"... ;)

If we take your interpretation of "when I look at it funny", as a given, it is clear that the OP's colloquial vernacular invited a sub-formal reply. He invested then hefty effort copiously caterwauling about having received a sub-formal reply. Sturm und drang... indeed.

Greg did what the facts (or at least the claim) involved made reasonable. He promptly offered refund. Good on him.

To the degree that "'spews' was an unfortunate exaggeration', well, this returns me to core point that the letter had an element of flippancy and grandiosity to it. It wasn't a good, thoughtful or succinct request for refund or for repair. It set the tone for the subsequent dialogue, which I believe I suggested earlier.

Really, whatever physically was awry with the pen does not matter. That you are speculating on what really happened based on the OP's note shows that you too experience ambiguity trying to interpret the OP's letter, whether we deem it flippancy or figure-of-speech that compromised its coherence.

In any case, five pages of Sturm und drang because someone received an imperfect pen for which he received offer of refund very promptly is... interesting.
Regards

David

[mhosea]

If we take your interpretation of "when I look at it funny", as a given, it is clear that the OP's colloquial vernacular invited a sub-formal reply.

Hmmm. Well, just as a PSA then, I'm pretty sure the "never seen that happen if you just look at it funny" reply is always going to come across as obnoxious, not a reply "in kind". Ironically, this matter didn't bother me at all because for some reason, Greg's reply reminded me of this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v2exWrsGOc

[david i]

That's a classic ;)

Honestly, a bit of obnoxiousness-- if we take that view of the response as a given-- is a fairly trivial thing. Indeed, looking at Greg's quick solution to the problem along with the "obnoxiousness" in his note, and given the silliness and immaturity of the complaint on this board, were I coming to this situation without knowledge of the two players, I would proceed to do business with Greg, but have great hesitation to ever accept an order from the complainant. Actually, having knowledge of one of the participants, I believe that conclusion still holds.


regards

david


-d

[Cob]

It seems that I may be (once again) a minority of one, in having rather old-fashioned views about how customers and clients should be treated.

I have been on both sides - and I know how infuriatingly stupid, unreasonable and dense customers and clients can be, but the old saying "The customer is always right" still holds water in my view and should do, however tedious the process may be for the trader.

Cob

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Just a small point: in a professional environment my manner of response is not dictated by the mode of address made to me. If a client or customer is flippant. I remain professional. If a patient assumes an overly familiar tone. I remain professional. I do have to deal with people who are less than happy. I remain professional, courteous and attentive. Perhaps I set my own bar too high?

[david i]

It seems that I may be (once again) a minority of one, in having rather old-fashioned views about how customers and clients should be treated.

I have been on both sides - and I know how infuriatingly stupid, unreasonable and dense customers and clients can be, but the old saying "The customer is always right" still holds water in my view and should do, however tedious the process may be for the trader.

Cob

Actually, it is quite clear that the customer is not always right.

regards

David

[sharmon202]

Mhosea--thanks so much for the YouTube link. I enjoyed the 3 minutes and your humor in your interpretation in this continuing argument.

[Deb]

It seems that I may be (once again) a minority of one, in having rather old-fashioned views about how customers and clients should be treated.

I have been on both sides - and I know how infuriatingly stupid, unreasonable and dense customers and clients can be, but the old saying "The customer is always right" still holds water in my view and should do, however tedious the process may be for the trader.

Cob

I don't think you are. Apart from anything else it's sound business practice to be courteous and to ensure that the customer goes away satisfied. To put it another way, it isn't sensible to antagonise your customer, as is made clear by this thread.

[View from the Loft]

Actually, it is quite clear that the customer is not always right.

regards

David

While I concur that the customer may not always be factually correct, the customer should always be treated courteously. And the customer should reciprocate in treating the trader with courtesy.

I think that reasonable people will accept that there will be the odd transaction that does not go as expected first time, it is how the trader responds that determines whether the transaction is a good one or not.

In my personal opinion - and I accept that this will not be shared by others - neither party to this transaction covered themselves in glory with this one.

[sharmon202]

Actually, it is quite clear that the customer is not always right.

regards

David

While I concur that the customer may not always be factually correct, the customer should always be treated courteously. And the customer should reciprocate in treating the trader with courtesy.

I think that reasonable people will accept that there will be the odd transaction that does not go as expected first time, it is how the trader responds that determines whether the transaction is a good one or not.

In my personal opinion - and I accept that this will not be shared by others - neither party to this transaction covered themselves in glory with this one.

Amen to that!

[david i]

Situations such as this actually serve as great public service, to warn many who sell and trade in pens and related material and services as to which rare customer to avoid.

Everyone should be treated courteously. First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm. Pithy bromides often have value pretty much only for their pith, and "the customer is always right" is pretty pithy.

regards

-d

[ksh]

The customer may not always be right, but that is not an excuse for a merchant to treat a customer like garbage -- which also has been my experience with Mr. Minuskin. Polite inquiries met with abrupt, who needs you, responses. I will spend my money elsewhere.

[Deb]

Situations such as this actually serve as great public service, to warn many who sell and trade in pens and related material and services as to which rare customer to avoid.

Everyone should be treated courteously. First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm. Pithy bromides often have value pretty much only for their pith, and "the customer is always right" is pretty pithy.

regards

-d

I admire your loyalty to your friend, David, but I find your point of view doesn't reflect the facts as we have them.

First, turn out a decent product. Second, put it right if it's wrong. Third, why would a seller be unpleasant to a customer? They're the guys who put bread on your table. Unless the seller has developed an aversion to eating, it's a good idea to ensure that the customer is not only happy with what he has bought this time, it would be nice if he came back for more.

[Farmboy]

I recall a sign that hung in the shop long ago. On one side "The customer is always right" was printed in large bold print, printed on the other side was "It just costs some customers more". This has always worked for me though I don't advertise.

To David's point, as a merchant, sometimes you choose to not do business.

FarmBoy

[Jon Szanto]

Bear in mind, we all view these things through the lens of our own perspectives. David is no different in this sense, and I suspect that the way he interacts with people, on both a professional and non-professional level, as well as his relationships to vendors/businesses (such as Greg, in this case), colors his analysis. In the end, it boils down to how each of us would choose to transact business: does being pleasant and somewhat conciliatory facilitate better service? can treating even an abrasive customer generously yield benefits? I know how *I* act in both guises, and I just read all of these posts for future information, because I can't change anyone else.

[david i]

Situations such as this actually serve as great public service, to warn many who sell and trade in pens and related material and services as to which rare customer to avoid.

Everyone should be treated courteously. First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm. Pithy bromides often have value pretty much only for their pith, and "the customer is always right" is pretty pithy.

regards

-d

I admire your loyalty to your friend, David, but I find your point of view doesn't reflect the facts as we have them.

First, turn out a decent product. Second, put it right if it's wrong. Third, why would a seller be unpleasant to a customer? They're the guys who put bread on your table. Unless the seller has developed an aversion to eating, it's a good idea to ensure that the customer is not only happy with what he has bought this time, it would be nice if he came back for more.

First. Loyalty is irrelevant, indeed a Straw Man.

Second. "Decent product" is irrelevant, as per my prior posts. We can work through them again slowly if necessary.

Third, "Facts as we have them" often merely are opinions.

Fourth, "Unpleasant" is subjective.

Fifth, "Ensure the customer is happy" indeed is an element-- but not an absolute-- of the Game Theory of business.

Sixth, "nice to come back for more", very much is not always the case.

regards

-david

[david i]

The customer may not always be right, but that is not an excuse for a merchant to treat a customer like garbage -- which also has been my experience with Mr. Minuskin. Polite inquiries met with abrupt, who needs you, responses. I will spend my money elsewhere.

Note that KSH engages in slander.

Entertaining, at least.

regards

david

[mhosea]

I recall a sign that hung in the shop long ago. On one side "The customer is always right" was printed in large bold print, printed on the other side was "It just costs some customers more". This has always worked for me though I don't advertise.


That must explain why I paid Greg $99 (plus shipping both ways, of course) to grind a modern 18K western fine nib to a 0.4mm (he insists on this kind of precision) round nib . My alternative was to pay return shipping and get nothing for my trouble. It seemed a little high to me. Still does. I figured it might be because I had openly criticized his position on "boutique" inks, though I might rather have tried his patience when I attempted to emphasize that the precise width did not matter. The problem I was needing to solve was that the tipping had a flat foot on it put there by some previous owner trying to smooth it, and I wasn't even sure that I cared what usable nib shape it should have. If it was the latter, I'm not the only one who has tried his patience in the matter (google "nibadonnas"). I had a couple of other matters that made me go "hmmm", but it is not my intention to complain about it.

Rather, my takeaway from everything I experienced and from some of the similar stories I've read, rightly or wrongly--this is just my impression, is that Greg is sort of the flip side of a high-maintenance customer. That is to say, if you are a customer, you may need to try harder to please this vendor than you normally would. This may be true only for us nobodies out here on the internet. I certainly would have no trouble believing that David I. and Todd E. are given an extra measure of respect. I don't know if he would accept an order from me at this point (probably not now, anyway :) ), but if I were to ask him to do a crack repair or retipping job, I would be very precise, very brief, and I would not complain about anything after the fact unless the weld flat failed during a time frame in which I was, in fact, still treating it with kid gloves. If I bought a pen from his little marketplace, I would consider it an as-is or return-for-refund sale, i.e. troubleshooting and repair (the restoration "process" that David mentions) not being included in the price. This would not be hard for me to swallow, since I think his prices on that marketplace actually are unrestored prices. This is the kind of customer that I think would make Greg happy, and if you need Greg's skills, you probably want to make him happy because there aren't many viable options for retipping in particular.

I'm just not sure his marketplace a good place for newbies to go when they want to get into vintage pens. For that, I'd tend to recommend a full-service restorer who won't mind helping you troubleshoot issues you have afterwards, whether those issues turn out to require your own adaptation to the pen or are part of the "process" of restoration that David alluded to. I assume that hypochondriacs acquire real diseases at about the same rate as the general population, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you, etc. For the same reasons I think it's only appropriate for a vendor to take the problems that newbies have just as seriously as the problems that experienced people have and to make a good-faith effort to determine if there is anything the vendor should do for the customer. Now if Greg's terms really are "as-is or return for a full-refund, no troubleshooting included", then it would behoove him to make that crystal clear. I don't think it would hurt sales any at his prices, but it might calibrate customer expectations better, and it would give him something to point to on his web site. I think it might have averted this whole incident.

[pajaro]

I have a couple of things that came from Greg Minuskin, and these simple transactions were businesslike.

If I bought something that presented an issue to me, and if the vendor replied to my query that he could sell the product to any number of others, so return it for a refund, I would indeed return it for a refund, and I might well feel that the vendor had been arrogant with the implication that he could sell it to plenty of others. That part of the vendor communication could well and wisely have been omitted by the vendor. It was a dig at the customer, and the result was predictable. Vendors don't have to be courteous or even considerate in the least, but draw your own conclusions about which golden rule was followed, "He who has the gold makes the rules" or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[Deb]

First, you do love your Straw Man, David - you drag the poor soul out at every opportunity.
Second, no need to go through your prior posts - they have no greater validity than anyone else's. A pen that "spews ink out" and fills the cap with ink isn't a product that I would be happy to offer to a customer.
Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary.
Fourth, I agree that "unpleasant" is subjective. Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid.
Fifth, I have - very rarely - found a customer who was impossible to deal with. In such a case, I would politely withdraw from the sale. Otherwise, I would do my utmost to ensure that the customer is happy with his purchase. Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer.
Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

In my personal experience of a limited selection of restorers I do note a certain prima donna-esque quality can be present, and I have been put off by a one with a real attitude problem. When a customer questions the quality of a sale or a service it is probably a poor decision on the part of the provider to immediately assume a defensive position. While I agree with some of what David I. has posited I have to remind myself that his views are just that, views, and do not represent any absolute truth in these matters. And of course, despite protestations, his views are very nicely coloured by his own perceptions and experiences of delaing with Mr Minuskin. This is quite natural, but should be noted for fairness.

The question I think is relevant here is: If someone is rude to you does that give you explicit permission to reflect that rudeness with your own? Or should you seek to rise above it and present yourself as professional (in the context of a business setting like the OP complaint)?

I am of the mind that one should try to be polite irrespective of what the other guy says. Clearly that is beyond some people - and admittedly I struggle with it myself at times and with particularly awkward people. The other thing is that this thread shows just one example of a less-than-polite response. It's hardly statistically significant.

[david i]

First, you do love your Straw Man, David - you drag the poor soul out at every opportunity.
Second, no need to go through your prior posts - they have no greater validity than anyone else's. A pen that "spews ink out" and fills the cap with ink isn't a product that I would be happy to offer to a customer.
Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary.
Fourth, I agree that "unpleasant" is subjective. Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid.
Fifth, I have - very rarely - found a customer who was impossible to deal with. In such a case, I would politely withdraw from the sale. Otherwise, I would do my utmost to ensure that the customer is happy with his purchase. Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer.
Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think.



Let's start with First:

Straw Man is a very useful notion for clarifying discussion. It removes quickly distractions. The position which is argued as if it matters even though it doesn't. One can toss out a straw man, successfully argue it, but still it doesn't matter. The linkage of it to what is of concern is why it is dangerous and should not go unpersecuted ;)


Imaginary Example:

Greg sold Plotnik a resaced but not-formally-restored fountain pen. The pen did not work well. Greg accepted it for return.

Plotnick, in a discussion about the process, in an attempt to condemn Greg, wrote, " "You can't call a poor restoration 'good'""

-----

From a logic/debate standpoint, Plotnick's comment has some merit. While of course "you" can do many things (I can call a cat a pink elephant, though I'd be in error), his core thesis-- even if poorly stated-- that one ought not to call a poor restoration a good restoration is completely true, yet utterly irrelevant to analysis of Greg's business situation. Greg did not call a "poor restoration 'good'". So, Plotnick's argument, though true, is a Straw Man in the conversation. If he can get away with linking it successfully to the debate, however, he can make a point he really doesn't deserve. It behooves the observer (and the opposition in discussion) to call out the STraw.


Indeed, whether the restoration was poor or not is something of a tangent, as what makes a good restoration and how many fail even when good technique was applied is a non-trivial discussion.

And, further indeed, that the pen was not sold as fully restored makes "good vs bad restoration" even more irrelevant.

[david i]

First, you do love your Straw Man, David - you drag the poor soul out at every opportunity.
Second, no need to go through your prior posts - they have no greater validity than anyone else's. A pen that "spews ink out" and fills the cap with ink isn't a product that I would be happy to offer to a customer.
Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary.
Fourth, I agree that "unpleasant" is subjective. Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid.
Fifth, I have - very rarely - found a customer who was impossible to deal with. In such a case, I would politely withdraw from the sale. Otherwise, I would do my utmost to ensure that the customer is happy with his purchase. Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer.
Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think.

Moving on.

It's clear my posts do have greater validity than some, as I address issues and avoid straw men. Of greater merit would be to weigh the content of any given post against any other in conflict to see where the chips fall.

Whether you would be happy to sell a spewing pen also is a straw man.

"Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary." Note that his is a straw man. Whether or not facts and opinions are never the same has nothing to do anything I wrote.

I'd written, "Fourth, "Unpleasant" is subjective." You appear to have responded, "Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid." This is Straw Man. Whether or not something being subjective still permits validity has nothing to do with my point.

I am happy for you that you have never found a customer who is impossible to deal with. I also know people who like baked beans. So?

"Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer." Indeed, I believe I never suggested it did.

"Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think". I'd think it obvious. Cost-benefit analysis by individual sellers is the basis for my observation.

regards

-d

[Deb]

First, you do love your Straw Man, David - you drag the poor soul out at every opportunity.
Second, no need to go through your prior posts - they have no greater validity than anyone else's. A pen that "spews ink out" and fills the cap with ink isn't a product that I would be happy to offer to a customer.
Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary.
Fourth, I agree that "unpleasant" is subjective. Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid.
Fifth, I have - very rarely - found a customer who was impossible to deal with. In such a case, I would politely withdraw from the sale. Otherwise, I would do my utmost to ensure that the customer is happy with his purchase. Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer.
Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think.

Moving on.

It's clear my posts do have greater validity than some, as I address issues and avoid straw men. Of greater merit would be to weigh the content of any given post against any other in conflict to see where the chips fall.

Whether you would be happy to sell a spewing pen also is a straw man.

"Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary." Note that his is a straw man. Whether or not facts and opinions are never the same has nothing to do anything I wrote.

I'd written, "Fourth, "Unpleasant" is subjective." You appear to have responded, "Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid." This is Straw Man. Whether or not something being subjective still permits validity has nothing to do with my point.

I am happy for you that you have never found a customer who is impossible to deal with. I also know people who like baked beans. So?

"Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer." Indeed, I believe I never suggested it did.

"Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think". I'd think it obvious. Cost-benefit analysis by individual sellers is the basis for my observation.

regards

-d

My goodness, what a proliferation of straw men! Where do you find all the straw, and the time to make them?

As I've noticed before, you have little interest in debate but are quite keen on point-scoring. Any time you feel like discussing something sensibly, give me a shout and we can have at it.

[david i]

In my personal experience of a limited selection of restorers I do note a certain prima dona-esque quality can be present, and I have been put off by a one with a real attitude problem. When a customer questions the quality of a sale or a service it is probably a poor decision on the part of the provider to immediately assume a defensive position. While I agree with some of what David I. has posited I have to remind myself that his views are just that, views, and do not represent any absolute truth in these matters. And of course, despite protestations, his views are very nicely coloured by his own perceptions and experiences of delaing with Mr Minuskin. This is quite natural, but should be noted for fairness.

The question I think is relevant here is: If someone is rude to you does that give you explicit permission to reflect that rudeness with your own? Or should you seek to rise above it and present yourself as professional (in the context of a business setting like the OP complaint)?

I am of the mind that one should try to be polite irrespective of what the other guy says. Clearly that is beyond some people - and admittedly I struggle with it myself at times and with particularly awkward people. The other thing is that this thread shows just one example of a less-than-polite response. It's hardly statistically significant.


I invite evidence my views of this exchange are coloured by any element of my interaction with Greg.

I note that the position I take in this exchange is consistent with exchanges I've had over the years regarding what I see as over-the-top pen customers in their interactions with pen restorers. Indeed, I engage in chats as much because they offer excellent opportunities to engage pen people in a dissection of both arguments and style of argumentation.

I would suggest sometime engaging in chat with Ron, Joel or Richard about some of the charms in dealing with pen people ;)

"The question I think is relevant here is: If someone is rude to you does that give you explicit permission to reflect that rudeness with your own? Or should you seek to rise above it and present yourself as professional (in the context of a business setting like the OP complaint)?"

This is a bit of a tangent in this case, as rudeness is somewhat subjective. As for me? I try maintain a stable level of rudeness in all interactions.

As to rising above it, I believe each of us should do what works for him. "Works" of course is the kicker, as defining the financial, emotional, and philosophical/ethical components for each "him" could take some doing.

I do agree that isolated anecdotes should be taken with grain of salt. Perhaps not all customers are as high strung as the OP ;)

regards

d

[david i]

First, you do love your Straw Man, David - you drag the poor soul out at every opportunity.
Second, no need to go through your prior posts - they have no greater validity than anyone else's. A pen that "spews ink out" and fills the cap with ink isn't a product that I would be happy to offer to a customer.
Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary.
Fourth, I agree that "unpleasant" is subjective. Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid.
Fifth, I have - very rarely - found a customer who was impossible to deal with. In such a case, I would politely withdraw from the sale. Otherwise, I would do my utmost to ensure that the customer is happy with his purchase. Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer.
Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think.

Moving on.

It's clear my posts do have greater validity than some, as I address issues and avoid straw men. Of greater merit would be to weigh the content of any given post against any other in conflict to see where the chips fall.

Whether you would be happy to sell a spewing pen also is a straw man.

"Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary." Note that his is a straw man. Whether or not facts and opinions are never the same has nothing to do anything I wrote.

I'd written, "Fourth, "Unpleasant" is subjective." You appear to have responded, "Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid." This is Straw Man. Whether or not something being subjective still permits validity has nothing to do with my point.

I am happy for you that you have never found a customer who is impossible to deal with. I also know people who like baked beans. So?

"Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer." Indeed, I believe I never suggested it did.

"Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think". I'd think it obvious. Cost-benefit analysis by individual sellers is the basis for my observation.

regards

-d

My goodness, what a proliferation of straw men! Where do you find all the straw, and the time to make them?

As I've noticed before, you have little interest in debate but are quite keen on point-scoring. Any time you feel like discussing something sensibly, give me a shout and we can have at it.


Call me Rumplestiltskin . ;)

Note that Tactic 15 from the LDM notes that "when you are not up to engage the discussion, bow out and note that your opponent does not debate in a manner that facilitates your process".

-d

[david i]

This pen should head out to Greg during the next week or two. He is one of a handful of artisans on the planet doing nib retipping.

Duofold Senior 1930 or so, black-and-pearl Celluloid with better than average color. I bought it at the Chicago Pen Show last year knowing it had a flawed nib. The tipping is gone. With Dufold Senior Nibs trading $100-125+ (not to mention becoming difficult to find), far better to re-tip than to scrap. Now, whether this pen should have a nib with "Duofold Deluxe" markings is a separate issue, though I do have a pen that would allow a kosher swap.



http://vacumania.com/penteech2/parkerduofoldsenior_blackpearl_badnib950a.jpg

regards

David

[Jon Szanto]

This pen should head out to Greg during the next week or two.

I guessed that when you posted on FB, but I would never assume. Nonetheless, this entire conversation, such as it is, has a fairly obvious underlying bias built into it, and should be taken with a moderately large mound of salt. I am certain Greg will do a bang-up job for you.

[david i]

Hi Jon,

Conversations of this sort indeed tend to have multiple vectors of bias. Keeps 'em interesting. Care to discuss, say, Ferguson? ;)

-d

[Jon Szanto]

To the latter, no. To the former, certainly, and wise to not overlook the fact.

BTW, posted a question about the DF on FB for you...

[david i]

To the latter, no. To the former, certainly, and wise to not overlook the fact.

BTW, posted a question about the DF on FB for you...

Already addressed.

Weird to have conversations moving across sites essentially in real time.

-d

[david i]

To the latter, no. To the former, certainly, and wise to not overlook the fact.

BTW, posted a question about the DF on FB for you...

Overlook the fact? I rather revel in the fact ;)

-d

[Jon Szanto]

Weird to have conversations moving across sites essentially in real time.

Indeed. Please promise me you'll never dive into Twitter. ;)


Overlook the fact? I rather revel in the fact ;)

My comment was more for others reading the thread, though I'm certain that many routinely catch our biases, or at least note that they exist.

[ksh]

Slander? The first essential element of slander is that the statement must be demonstrably false. My statement that I was treated like garbage can't be a basis of slander because it's inherently subjective. You can't be the target of a slander claim by asserting that someone is a jerk. Juries don't get to decide whether someone is really an ass. (Yes, I'm a lawyer in my spare time.) Moreover, David, how exactly are you in a position to have an opinion one way or another as to whether my assertion that i was treated like garbage is true or not? I don't recall sharing my email exchanges with you. I have dealt with dozens of professional pen dealers, including you, and no one has ever treated me the way I was treated by Mr. Minuskin. More slander?
You suggest that it is somehow inappropriate for a customer to say bad things about a seller, because the intention is to cause harm. This logic would eliminate providing critical feedback as a means of warning and assisting others. You don't want to be criticized and harmed by a customer saying bad things? Then treat customers the way that you would want to be treated.



The customer may not always be right, but that is not an excuse for a merchant to treat a customer like garbage -- which also has been my experience with Mr. Minuskin. Polite inquiries met with abrupt, who needs you, responses. I will spend my money elsewhere.

Note that KSH engages in slander.

Entertaining, at least.

regards

david

[david i]

Always entertaining to watch someone defend slander.

But, don't treat us like garbage now. Do explain how you treat your garbage.

Just sayin'...

-d

[david i]

Slander? The first essential element of slander is that the statement must be demonstrably false. My statement that I was treated like garbage can't be a basis of slander because it's inherently subjective. You can't be the target of a slander claim by asserting that someone is a jerk. Juries don't get to decide whether someone is really an ass. (Yes, I'm a lawyer in my spare time.) Moreover, David, how exactly are you in a position to have an opinion one way or another as to whether my assertion that i was treated like garbage is true or not? I don't recall sharing my email exchanges with you. I have dealt with dozens of professional pen dealers, including you, and no one has ever treated me the way I was treated by Mr. Minuskin. More slander?
You suggest that it is somehow inappropriate for a customer to say bad things about a seller, because the intention is to cause harm. This logic would eliminate providing critical feedback as a means of warning and assisting others. You don't want to be criticized and harmed by a customer saying bad things? Then treat customers the way that you would want to be treated.




Do explain how I suggest that it is somehow inappropriate for a customer to say bad things about a seller, because the intention is to cause harm.

Don't want to be harmed by people saying bad things, change your race/religion/whatever. Or sumthin'...

I do suspect the upshot of this thread though will be more business for Greg. Time will tell.

regards

David

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I invite evidence my views of this exchange are coloured by any element of my interaction with Greg.

I note that the position I take in this exchange is consistent with exchanges I've had over the years regarding what I see as over-the-top pen customers in their interactions with pen restorers. Indeed, I engage in chats as much because they offer excellent opportunities to engage pen people in a dissection of both arguments and style of argumentation.

I would suggest sometime engaging in chat with Ron, Joel or Richard about some of the charms in dealing with pen people

"The question I think is relevant here is: If someone is rude to you does that give you explicit permission to reflect that rudeness with your own? Or should you seek to rise above it and present yourself as professional (in the context of a business setting like the OP complaint)?"

This is a bit of a tangent in this case, as rudeness is somewhat subjective. As for me? I try maintain a stable level of rudeness in all interactions.

As to rising above it, I believe each of us should do what works for him. "Works" of course is the kicker, as defining the financial, emotional, and philosophical/ethical components for each "him" could take some doing.

I do agree that isolated anecdotes should be taken with grain of salt. Perhaps not all customers are as high strung as the OP


I don't need to provide evidence. That you have engaged in various exchanges with Mr Minuskin means that, one way or another, your opinion of him is coloured. You may claim otherwise I guess, but you would be fundamentally incorrect. Unless you are not human and are in fact a robot... :) I am not saying that your points about this thread's complaint are invalid, just that it should be noted that you are a clearly supporter of the Mr Minuskin and therefore more likely to grant benefit of doubt in his direction. Once again I am not saying this is wrong in and of itself, just worth bearing in mind. Particularly when assigning bias with a free hand to other participants here.


As for rudeness being subjective, well, I wonder where that comes from because it sounds to me like a blanket excuse for poor bahaviour. Generally, if someone was offended and thought you were rude you can lay that at the door of subjectivity. How convenient. However, in the real world, there are accepted, though undefined, levels of courtesy - even if they are insincerely used.

Regarding 'rising above it', I come from the school of self-improvement. I am also a follower of the dharma (which no doubt will raise a few hackles, but there it is). I believe that we could all do more to make our interactions smoother and more pleasurable. However, the only person we can actually change is ourselves, so... draw your own conclusion.


I do also note the constant references to the LDM. Perhaps there is a rule that mentions logic-chopping?

[Jon Szanto]

I do suspect the upshot of this thread though will be more business for Greg. Time will tell.

Fascinating.

[david i]

I invite evidence my views of this exchange are coloured by any element of my interaction with Greg.

I note that the position I take in this exchange is consistent with exchanges I've had over the years regarding what I see as over-the-top pen customers in their interactions with pen restorers. Indeed, I engage in chats as much because they offer excellent opportunities to engage pen people in a dissection of both arguments and style of argumentation.

I would suggest sometime engaging in chat with Ron, Joel or Richard about some of the charms in dealing with pen people

"The question I think is relevant here is: If someone is rude to you does that give you explicit permission to reflect that rudeness with your own? Or should you seek to rise above it and present yourself as professional (in the context of a business setting like the OP complaint)?"

This is a bit of a tangent in this case, as rudeness is somewhat subjective. As for me? I try maintain a stable level of rudeness in all interactions.

As to rising above it, I believe each of us should do what works for him. "Works" of course is the kicker, as defining the financial, emotional, and philosophical/ethical components for each "him" could take some doing.

I do agree that isolated anecdotes should be taken with grain of salt. Perhaps not all customers are as high strung as the OP


I don't need to provide evidence. That you have engaged in various exchanges with Mr Minuskin means that, one way or another, your opinion of him is coloured. You may claim otherwise I guess, but you would be fundamentally incorrect. Unless you are not human and are in fact a robot... :) I am not saying that your points about this thread's complaint are invalid, just that it should be noted that you are a clearly supporter of the Mr Minuskin and therefore more likely to grant benefit of doubt in his direction. Once again I am not saying this is wrong in and of itself, just worth bearing in mind. Particularly when assigning bias with a free hand to other participants here.


As for rudeness being subjective, well, I wonder where that comes from because it sounds to me like a blanket excuse for poor bahaviour. Generally, if someone was offended and thought you were rude you can lay that at the door of subjectivity. How convenient. However, in the real world, there are accepted, though undefined, levels of courtesy - even if they are insincerely used.

Regarding 'rising above it', I come from the school of self-improvement. I am also a follower of the dharma (which no doubt will raise a few hackles, but there it is). I believe that we could all do more to make our interactions smoother and more pleasurable. However, the only person we can actually change is ourselves, so... draw your own conclusion.


I do also note the constant references to the LDM. Perhaps there is a rule that mentions logic-chopping?

Hey whichever colour is my conversation, your point is Straw Man, because everyone's conversation is coloured.

It is presumptuous of you to give me permission to claim anything, but hey, at least I find presumption to be entertaining.

Straw everywhere, but nothing to eat.

If I am a supporter of Greg, it is only because in chats of this sort I tend to support the wronged party. Claiming otherwise is a tactic from the LDM

Well, since you appear to agree Greg has been treated like garbage, this conversation takes an odd direction.

You may follow Dharma if you want, Invoking it here is a bit... odd. I used to watch Dharma though.

The LDM indeed is a powerful tool. It lets us dismiss distractions readily.

-d

[ksh]

What am I missing, David? Are you not suggesting that the dissatisfied customer should keep his mouth shut lest he cause harm?
Rather than just repeating your nonsensical accusation of "slander," maybe you could answer my question -- how the hell do you know how I was treated?

My first job out of law school, for several years, was doing airplane crash litigation. Fascinating little fact -- of all the various types of professionals who are pilots of small planes, the most accidents by far involve physician pilots. They think they know everything.


First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm.
regards

-d

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Hey whichever colour is my conversation, your point is Straw Man, because everyone's conversation is coloured.

It is presumptuous of you to give me permission to claim anything, but hey, at least I find presumption to be entertaining.

Straw everywhere, but nothing to eat.

If I am a supporter of Greg, it is only because in chats of this sort I tend to support the wronged party. Claiming otherwise is a tactic from the LDM

Well, since you appear to agree Greg has been treated like garbage, this conversation takes an odd direction.

You may follow Dharma if you want, Invoking it here is a bit... odd. I used to watch Dharma though.

The LDM indeed is a powerful tool. It lets us dismiss distractions readily.



It appears you take umbrage even at reasoned responses.

I was being literal about the 'colouring'. You have decided to interpret it as something else. I wasn't 'invoking' the dharma. That is your term, a pejorative one in my view. I mentioned the dharma to clarify why I support the notion of self-improvement. Thought that was obvious but apparently not. So consider this a clarification.

I wasn't giving you permission at all. I was stating a possibility. Thought that was kind of obvious too. However, it is becoming clear that you are interpreting to suit yourself instead of actually considering the words and context. Good luck with that.

Do I think Mr Minuskin was spoken to harshly? Perhaps, though mildly. Yet that does not mean that he should automatically respond 'in kind'. I wouldn't. Perhaps you would?

[david i]

Hey whichever colour is my conversation, your point is Straw Man, because everyone's conversation is coloured.

It is presumptuous of you to give me permission to claim anything, but hey, at least I find presumption to be entertaining.

Straw everywhere, but nothing to eat.

If I am a supporter of Greg, it is only because in chats of this sort I tend to support the wronged party. Claiming otherwise is a tactic from the LDM

Well, since you appear to agree Greg has been treated like garbage, this conversation takes an odd direction.

You may follow Dharma if you want, Invoking it here is a bit... odd. I used to watch Dharma though.

The LDM indeed is a powerful tool. It lets us dismiss distractions readily.



It appears you take umbrage even at reasoned responses.

I was being literal about the 'colouring'. You have decided to interpret it as something else. I wasn't 'invoking' the dharma. That is your term, a pejorative one in my view. I mentioned the dharma to clarify why I support the notion of self-improvement. Thought that was obvious but apparently not. So consider this a clarification.

I wasn't giving you permission at all. I was stating a possibility. Thought that was kind of obvious too. However, it is becoming clear that you are interpreting to suit yourself instead of actually considering the words and context. Good luck with that.

Do I think Mr Minuskin was spoken to harshly? Perhaps, though mildly. Yet that does not mean that he should automatically respond 'in kind'. I wouldn't. Perhaps you would?


Appearances often reflect individual bias, no doubt.

I appreciate the wish of luck, but I don't need luck. As long as we have words to explore...

I concede lack of clarity regarding why one would see suggestion of invocation of something one follows to be pejorative.

I accept your revocation of the context of "permission"

I do note that the sturm und drang here has warranted an appropriate slap down, which I have to some degree given it.

-d

[david i]

What am I missing, David? Are you not suggesting that the dissatisfied customer should keep his mouth shut lest he cause harm?
Rather than just repeating your nonsensical accusation of "slander," maybe you could answer my question -- how the hell do you know how I was treated?

My first job out of law school, for several years, was doing airplane crash litigation. Fascinating little fact -- of all the various types of professionals who are pilots of small planes, the most accidents by far involve physician pilots. They think they know everything.


First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm.
regards

-d

I don't know what you are missing. Why would I know or care about what you are missing? Are you worried you are missing something? I merely have poked at the straw men and the hyperbole bouncing around this gripe fest, poking at what I deem an inappropriate hue and cry by overly sensitive pen collectors.

Fascinating little fact... docs making poor pilots is old news. We have military in our hospital. Go figure. Doctors flying is an engaging Straw Man, revealing something I daresay about someone who finds it relevant to a pen repair discussion.


-d

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Appearances often reflect individual bias, no doubt.

I appreciate the wish of luck, but I don't need luck. As long as we have words to explore...

I concede lack of clarity regarding why one would see suggestion of invocation of something one follows to be pejorative.

I accept your revocation of the context of "permission"

I do note that the sturm und drang here has warranted an appropriate slap down, which I have to some degree given it.


Then we have a dialogue. 'Invocation' has overtones that the word 'mention' does not, and is why I find it perjorative. This is subjective, but it is how I find it and why I brought it up.

I have spoken to, but not done business with, Mr Minuskin on exactly one occasion (an email exchange) and found that his response to a simple query about how to use his website was along the lines of a brusque "That's the website, you figure it out". Can't say I was too impressed but I wasn't bothered about it enough to rattle the bars. I think the same of the issue in this thread (from the OP). I thought Mr Minuskin's response could have been better, but hardly worth making a song and dance over.

It has been (mostly) entertaining to discuss the various perspectives though. And I agree. Sturm und drang really.

[david i]

Invocation does not mean same thing as mention, nor was it meant to.

I have no real concern about whether anyone does or does not do business with anyone else. Any permutation is fine. But, I will endeavor to maintain proportionality in discussion of this sort.

If all the great restorers got online to discuss customers...

regards

-d

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Invocation does not mean same thing as mention, nor was it meant to.

I am aware of that, though from this comment assume that you deliberately used the term, and were thus attempting to provoke. Is that a fair assessment of what to all intents and purposes looks like trolling? Quite why you would do this I don't know. Unless you get some small thrill from trying to rile people up. Each to their own I suppose.


I have no real concern about whether anyone does or does not do business with anyone else. Any permutation is fine. But, I will endeavor to maintain proportionality in discussion of this sort.

Kind of missed my point, which wasn't really a point beyond saying that the whole issue here seemed a bit inflated.

Anyway. In my opinion you are not maintaining proportionality but demonstrating bias for a fellow restorer with whom you are apparently on good terms. However, that is just an opinion. Generally of the same worth as most others!


I would like to hear that discussion from the restorers side of the fence (no pun intended), though I am now getting bored of this one. This doesn't fit into the fabled LDM as I am genuinely bored.

EDIT: Incidentally, David I. did you know that your avatar image bears an uncanny likeness to Dave Hester?

[ksh]

This thread stopped being about pen repair about a dozen of your posts ago. The pilot reference -- no relevance to pen repair, only to your arrogance and know-it-allism. Don't take up flying.





What am I missing, David? Are you not suggesting that the dissatisfied customer should keep his mouth shut lest he cause harm?
Rather than just repeating your nonsensical accusation of "slander," maybe you could answer my question -- how the hell do you know how I was treated?

My first job out of law school, for several years, was doing airplane crash litigation. Fascinating little fact -- of all the various types of professionals who are pilots of small planes, the most accidents by far involve physician pilots. They think they know everything.


First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm.
regards

-d

I don't know what you are missing. Why would I know or care about what you are missing? Are you worried you are missing something? I merely have poked at the straw men and the hyperbole bouncing around this gripe fest, poking at what I deem an inappropriate hue and cry by overly sensitive pen collectors.

Fascinating little fact... docs making poor pilots is old news. We have military in our hospital. Go figure. Doctors flying is an engaging Straw Man, revealing something I daresay about someone who finds it relevant to a pen repair discussion.


-d

[david i]

I fly monthly. No crashes yet.

And, yes, meta-discussion offers charms.

I really like it when people engage in Tactic 1 from the LDM.

regards

-d

[david i]

I am aware of that, though from this comment assume that you deliberately used the term, and were thus attempting to provoke. Is that a fair assessment of what to all intents and purposes looks like trolling? Quite why you would do this I don't know. Unless you get some small thrill from trying to rile people up. Each to their own I suppose.


I have no real concern about whether anyone does or does not do business with anyone else. Any permutation is fine. But, I will endeavor to maintain proportionality in discussion of this sort.

Kind of missed my point, which wasn't really a point beyond saying that the whole issue here seemed a bit inflated.

Anyway. In my opinion you are not maintaining proportionality but demonstrating bias for a fellow restorer with whom you are apparently on good terms. However, that is just an opinion. Generally of the same worth as most others!


I would like to hear that discussion from the restorers side of the fence (no pun intended), though I am now getting bored of this one. This doesn't fit into the fabled LDM as I am genuinely bored.

EDIT: Incidentally, David I. did you know that your avatar image bears an uncanny likeness to Dave Hester?

I have never heard that suggesting the notion of invoking what one follows constitutes a provocation.

Note that Tactic 2 from the LDM involves assertions of "trolling" by one's opposition in discussion. I can further specify.

Inflated. Hmmm... one might almost call it Strum und drang. I can't imagine...

You are welcome to assert bias. My position here is consistent with prior chats on same subject involving different people. I thus can assert controls in place. I invite the opposite.

You likely won't hear much of this from the restorers, barring shlepping to a pen show and engaging acquaintanceships that result in open conversation. The many I know won't bother with you on boards about this sort. They do cancel business with folks when necessary.

Boredom is cool. That's a fair part of why I engage in these chats at all.

Hester? Yeeeyuuuup! You should see how I bid at pen auctions at the Shows.

-d

[Jon Szanto]

Note that Tactic 2 from the LDM involves assertions of "trolling" by one's opposition in discussion.

Of course, it doesn't mean that trolling has not occurred. After all, an assertion can be true. ;)

[david i]

Note that Tactic 2 from the LDM involves assertions of "trolling" by one's opposition in discussion.

Of course, it doesn't mean that trolling has not occurred. After all, an assertion can be true. ;)

That is quite true, but the formality of the tactic goes, "In order to distract form a position without substance, cry 'troll'"

-d

[Jon Szanto]

That is quite true, but the formality of the tactic goes, "In order to distract form a position without substance, cry 'troll'"

Then, clearly, an updated version of the LDM is long-overdue, as there are certainly other circumstances where trollishness occurs, and those exceptions should be noted. In footnotes, at the very least.

Not to mention that pointing out trolling behavior does not only occur from the direction of an insubstantial position, nor is it an indicator of such a position.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

And it wasn't in my case. Merely an observation. I was interested in the semi-ethical part of this discussion. Not so much interested in the point scoring part. Different folks and all that.

[david i]

The ethics and principles elucidated are what it is all about. Cutting the chaff from the wheat is important.

-d

[david i]

That is quite true, but the formality of the tactic goes, "In order to distract form a position without substance, cry 'troll'"

Then, clearly, an updated version of the LDM is long-overdue, as there are certainly other circumstances where trollishness occurs, and those exceptions should be noted. In footnotes, at the very least.

Not to mention that pointing out trolling behavior does not only occur from the direction of an insubstantial position, nor is it an indicator of such a position.

Nah, the LDM is pretty solid. Besides trollishness, a great many things can occur outside a set of prescribed circumstances. That this is so has little impact on those circumstances.

For example, "Hitting someone in the head with a cricket bat is a poor way to win a debate" is a notion of merit that stands by itself even though one might imagine other circumstances (say, when one is being robbed by a thief who has threatened his family) when applying cricket back to head makes good sense. I believe one need not add that as a footnote.

regards

-d

[Jon Szanto]

I still see too much wiggle-room. But I'm outta here for now.

[Farmboy]

How is the pen; Is it fixed? Has it been restored, returned, evaluated, neglected, banished to the junk drawer?

Just curious.

Farmboy

[Cob]

How is the pen; Is it fixed? Has it been restored, returned, evaluated, neglected, banished to the junk drawer?

Just curious.

Farmboy

It should have been fixed - promptly by the vendor.

Cob

[david i]

How is the pen; Is it fixed? Has it been restored, returned, evaluated, neglected, banished to the junk drawer?

Just curious.

Farmboy

It should have been fixed - promptly by the vendor.

Cob

The vender did fix the problem promptly. He refunded the pen. The buyer then whined about it.

-d

[Cob]

How is the pen; Is it fixed? Has it been restored, returned, evaluated, neglected, banished to the junk drawer?

Just curious.

Farmboy

It should have been fixed - promptly by the vendor.

Cob

The vender did fix the problem promptly. He refunded the pen. The buyer then whined about it.

-d

The buyer, quite reasonably in my view, wanted the pen he bought, in working order. He did not want the dealer telling him that he could sell it anytime etc., etc.

The correct procedure in this case would be that the dealer offers either to put the pen in working order (which it should have been to start with) or offers a refund, the latter of which he did of course. So I would say a 50% score for customer service, discounting any other aspects.

Cob

[Chris Pen]

After reading all of these pages, and hoping I never hear the words straw man again ( it's become comparable to Chinese water torture, it's been brought up so much ) I'm of the opinion that there were mistakes on both sides. Whether or not the OP should have made it public is understandably up for debate, but what's done is done.

Should Greg have commented on the OP's e-mail the way he did? IMO, no, but i don't think the OP did himself any favors by wording it the way he did. The old saying "kill them with kindness" may have worked better to at least get off on the right foot, for both parties involved. JMO of course.

[Jon Szanto]

The vender did fix the problem promptly.

The question was whether the pen, itself, was fixed. That the vendor made his own life easier is not in question, but he did so by fixing his "problem", not the pen.

[david i]

The vender did fix the problem promptly.

The question was whether the pen, itself, was fixed. That the vendor made his own life easier is not in question, but he did so by fixing his "problem", not the pen.

Jon raises an interesting question, moving beyond the parsing of the word "fix".

What obligation does anyone have who sells a product that turns out to be defective?

I'm not an attorney, but I believe we can explore a rudimentary legal interpretation and certainly can explore the philosophical interpretation.

For the sake of this mini-discussion, I will assert the following given. If these givens were not to hold, this conversation likely could not proceed.


The Seller was unaware the item was flawed
The Buyer is correct that the item actually is flawed
The item was not sold "as is"
The seller and the buyer both wish to be reasonable regarding the item




For a truly flawed item, three options appear to be in play.



Fix the flawed item
Refund the flawed item
Refund the flawed item (or fix it) AND pay for peripheral damages (to be explored below)




For the moment I will skip the who pays postage and other trivia.

When something is purchased that does not function properly, I see two types of damages in play.



Loss of the value of the item, were it not flawed
Injury/Damage to life or property due to the flawed function of purchased item




In the case of an item that is flawed but which has done no harm to person or property due to the flaw, refund or repair are valid remediations. If the flawed item, causes harm, more remediation might be in play.

If I buy a fountain pen that won't write right, there is no peripheral damage barring, say, my being poisoned by toxic ink spilling on my hand or by having the pen blot an important contract costing me my first big business deal (and that latter case can be hard to prove). I thus am out only the value of pen, of shipping cost, and a very hard to prove opportunity cost of the time spent dealing with the dealer to solve the problem. On other hand, if I have an epidural injection with pre-packaged steroid that turns out to be contaminated by fungus, and I die of fungal meningitis, then the "fix" for the flawed item likely will be more substantial.

In the case of this flawed pen, the buyer never asserted peripheral damages. Refund or repair both are ethical solutions. I further assert it is the seller's right to opt not to pursue a physical repair of item if he favors refund, as there are limits to how and when he must invest extra time in a flawed pen. If he chooses, after refund, to let it lie about for a month before getting to it, or offering it again "as is", that is his choice once he has refunded the pen.

regards

-d

[mmahany]

I didn't see it addressed, but this is a great question that deserves to be answered.

From the Market Feedback Rules:
The purpose of this subforum is to provide facts. We don't care what you think of the person who did the work. His personality is not being reviewed, his work is.


It would have helped for you to place the above in a quotation, as I did for you. It appeared that you were speaking for yourself, as opposed to directly quoting the stated forum rules. Best to be clear.

I'm glad it worked because I did that intentionally to prove a point.

The point is: it's very easy to misinterpret responses over the internet.

I'm sure on first impression, I came off rude and harsh. However, in context, you now know that all I did was take a direct quote from the rules of this forum.

Hopefully, you see the correlation to the topic of this thread.

[Jon Szanto]

I'm glad it worked because I did that intentionally to prove a point.

The point is: it's very easy to misinterpret responses over the internet.

I'm sure on first impression, I came off rude and harsh. However, in context, you now know that all I did was take a direct quote from the rules of this forum.

Hopefully, you see the correlation to the topic of this thread.

Your point failed: I'm well aware that responses typed into messages electronically can be misinterpreted, and that lesson was learned years and years ago, long before your post.

[mhosea]

Actually where is the evidence that anything was misinterpreted by either party? David and I were discussing an idiom and its possible effects, but that it even had an effect on the substance of the communication remains speculative. To me the exchange makes perfect sense assuming everybody is perfectly in tune with the best possible interpretation of what the other person meant. The customer has a problem and expects the vendor to want to help him solve it. He is disappointed to learn that the vendor is not willing to help him solve the problem, which the vendor blames entirely on the customer. Returning the merchandise for a refund doesn't solve the problem, rather works around it. The customer feels slighted. Is that not the story here? Is there some other interpretation where if you take the best possible tone and meaning of what was said, everybody would be happy?

[Waski_the_Squirrel]

I can count on one hand the number of times I have either had my mind changed or have changed a mind on a forum.

[Farmboy]

This is interesting. At the risk of being somewhat derivative of the original discussion, I think this observation fits. The 'fix-it' vs 'refund-it' doesn't always translate. If I was purchasing a new TV, a new car, a new washing machine, (or any other consumer good) fix-it, refund-it, replace-it are all an option noting that for many consumer goods fix-it = replace-it since there are ample supplies of new and identical replacements available. If I'm talking about a 70 year old fountain pen, a 80 year old cast iron toy tractor, a 100 year old Mission oak table, or any other of what I'll call a one-of-a-kind item, repair may not be possible, replacement isn't an option so we are left with refund it.

Sometimes you just send the item back and start the hunt over. It has happened where I have been on the short end not getting what I wanted out of a sale (buy or purchase). I don't think any of the email exchanges are that bad though I'll agree some wordsmithing could have improved the situation.

[Farmboy]

I can count on one hand the number of times I have either had my mind changed or have changed a mind on a forum.

I like riddles. Two?

[Jon Szanto]

I can count on one hand the number of times I have either had my mind changed or have changed a mind on a forum.

Then again, you can only be certain about the first part of your statement.

[mhosea]

It depends on your personality. I think, as a rule, INTPs will change their minds easily if you have a compelling argument. I know I do. What's the big deal about changing your mind? You don't get any points for being consistent and wrong unless you're a politician.

[Waski_the_Squirrel]

It depends on your personality. I think, as a rule, INTPs will change their minds easily if you have a compelling argument. I know I do. What's the big deal about changing your mind? You don't get any points for being consistent and wrong unless you're a politician.

I think INTPs are also less likely to take public, vocal stands (though they may very well have very strong, deeply held beliefs). This makes them likely to have the problem in the first place.

I guess what bothers me about these kinds of arguments takes me back to an experience I had in high school while I worked in a pizza restaurant. We had a coupon. I don't even remember what was on it. But, a customer came in and wanted to use it in a different way which was not on the coupon. I tried to politely say no, but he wasn't having it and started arguing with me. Instead of doing the smart thing and apologizing and walking away, I tried to reason with him.

As a result, he got angrier and angrier and so did I. Now, I don't often raise my voice (and that is one line I didn't cross that time), but he did. And then a customer at the back of the restaurant yelled out, "Why don't you two just shut the F up and let the rest of us eat in peace?" Talk about a wake-up call. As crudely as that other customer put it, he was right. I wasn't going to convince this customer about the coupon, and he wasn't going to convince me. There was one way we were interpreting the coupon at the restaurant, and that was that. I had been sucked into a ridiculous argument that should never have happened and should have taken the high road.

And that was the feeling I got from visiting this thread today. I should not have commented since I really have no dog in this fight (I've never done business with Mr. Minuskin, and probably never will: he offers nothing of interest to me). But, since I did intrude with an idiotic comment, I thought I might as well try to explain it.

[Jon Szanto]

But, since I did intrude with an idiotic comment, I thought I might as well try to explain it.

Whoa, hold up there! I don't think your statement merits that demerit, just that it needed some tweaking. And I think - and I can only guess at this, obviously - that you may be selling yourself short in having helped other people alter their thoughts on things. Of course, I'm thinking of the various Noodler's products you have been quite involved with; one can but assume that you've had some impact on that front.

[ethernautrix]

The customer has a problem and expects the vendor to want to help him solve it. He is disappointed to learn that the vendor is not willing to help him solve the problem, which the vendor blames entirely on the customer. Returning the merchandise for a refund doesn't solve the problem, rather works around it. The customer feels slighted. Is that not the story here?

That's the story I read.

[Chrissy]

The customer has a problem and expects the vendor to want to help him solve it. He is disappointed to learn that the vendor is not willing to help him solve the problem, which the vendor blames entirely on the customer. Returning the merchandise for a refund doesn't solve the problem, rather works around it. The customer feels slighted. Is that not the story here?

That's the story I read.

That is also the story that I read

[david i]

Suspect some of you should opt not to buy old and perhaps new pens anymore.

regards

-d

[Chris Pen]

Suspect some of you should opt not to buy old and perhaps new pens anymore.

regards

-d

Not the conclusion I came to, but to each his own....

[Neo]

Suspect some of you should opt not to buy old and perhaps new pens anymore.

regards

-d

Not the conclusion I came to, but to each his own....

Perhaps he meant not from him...

[pengeezer]

Suspect some of you should opt not to buy old and perhaps new pens anymore.

regards

-d

I have no problem buying old or new,as long as I read everything before jumping in......



John

[Jon Szanto]

Suspect some of you should opt not to buy old and perhaps new pens anymore.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbq4gjDB921qe0eclo1_r8_500.gif

[pengeezer]

It depends on your personality. I think, as a rule, INTPs will change their minds easily if you have a compelling argument. I know I do. What's the big deal about changing your mind? You don't get any points for being consistent and wrong unless you're a politician.


As an INFP,I would hope that I read everything and even asked questions about the pen I was looking at before I decided to jump
on it. Better to have asked questions and lost the chance to buy the pen than to jump and find out there were problems. And if the seller's answer
to my questions was snappy,then I guess I didn't need the pen all that much--there are still enough of them around that I could find one elsewhere.


John

[pajaro]

There you go, thinking again.

[david i]

Suspect some of you should opt not to buy old and perhaps new pens anymore.

regards

-d

Not the conclusion I came to, but to each his own....

Perhaps he meant not from him...

Oh, by all means not from me.

I'm weeks behind confirming availability on requested pens, a week or more behind shipping pens already purchased and months behind updating the website. Had Paul Erano (Author of Fountain Pens Past and Present and Editor Emeritus of PENnant) down in NYC for three days helping me assemble the secret 3500-pen storage case I doped out from non-pen case materials sold online after a month of research, in order to try to get control of a truly metastatic pen spread around my tiny NYC apartment.. Realized I have five Empire-cap 51's I don't know what to do with and 1500 pens in the restoration/sales pipeline I can't get to the website efficiently. And... this chat made me realize I have one or two customers who had function flaws turn up on pens I sold who I also forgot to invite to return the pens for the second time... from two months ago or so.

Hell, if you are unhappy that Greg refunded a flawed pen in, like, a few hours, you are going to hate buying from me, save of course the the amazing pens and baby step into the world of old pens and the culture of the hobby that such a purchase will offer you.

But, if you're looking for oh-so-warm-and-fuzzy, I'm probably not the fellow to buy from. But, as history shows, I will be happy to do CPR on you at a pen show if you need it.

Perhaps one day we should talk about the dealer-restorers "won't do business with" list.

regards

-d

[Empty_of_Clouds]

... baby step into the world of old pens and the culture of the hobby...

(Sorry David, that is just too funny to pass up)

That kind of thing always makes me laugh. It's not some arcane area of interest. Any 'culture' associated with them is a purely modern invention - probably to fuel exclusivity and boost prices.They weren't a mystery to our forbears, they aren't a mystery to us now. They are merely pens. Tools to be used as intended. They can be frustrating at times, but then what in life isn't, hmm?

The vintage pen cult is not really any different or any less a product of artifice than that found around moleskine notebooks or blackwing pencils (to name but two examples).

That's all just my opinion of course. I am not one to be swayed by hype on such matters is all.

[migo984]

... baby step into the world of old pens and the culture of the hobby...

(Sorry David, that is just too funny to pass up)

That kind of thing always makes me laugh. It's not some arcane area of interest. Any 'culture' associated with them is a purely modern invention - probably to fuel exclusivity and boost prices.They weren't a mystery to our forbears, they aren't a mystery to us now. They are merely pens. Tools to be used as intended. They can be frustrating at times, but then what in life isn't, hmm?

The vintage pen cult is not really any different or any less a product of artifice than that found around moleskine notebooks or blackwing pencils (to name but two examples).

That's all just my opinion of course. I am not one to be swayed by hype on such matters is all.

Well said. There are always people who benefit from maintaining some artificial mystique around things, for example computer/IT "experts". They like to make people feel dependent on them, and to disempower users. I once considered vintage pens to be scary, sacred things that plebs like me shouldn't mess with. Now I've seen the insides of many pens, seen nibs swapped about, replaced, smoothed, stubbed, frankenpens created, etc etc, and I realise that only a minority are the complicated pieces of equipment I once thought they were. The main benefit of vintage pen sellers is that they have good networks, affording access to supplies of great old pens.

[purplepencils]

Here's my opinion (and no one should take it as fact, before logic police come out raging):
- the OP should have been precise and literal (as I said way earlier before this thread devolved into whether people should or should not buy vintage pens, and whether vendors are correct in treating their customers in a brusque manner, and who exactly enjoys using straw men arguments);
- the vendor should not have assumed that it's the customer's fault but worked to try to discover what exactly might be the issue, and fix it to the customer's wishes.

In addition to all that, it is apparent to me that David is essentially the man who thinks Greg can do no wrong, perhaps because he has experienced horrible customers before. Note that I am not saying that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong. What I'm saying is that David's highly obvious biases are just that: biases. Just as the OP refuses to see how he might have contributed to and indeed exacerbated the ugly situation. Indeed, what was offensive about the last series of communications posted? Virtually nothing. However, for most reasonable souls on this board, it is entirely possible to take the vendor, the OP and David with large mounds of salt (as I have). Insulting the vendor to no end -- and in the case of David, insulting everyone who does not agree with him -- simply reflects very badly on them. If anything, all three come out (again, my opinion, no one has to like or share it) smelling like rubbish.

One thing David is correct about, though: vendors have a right to back out of a sale (except, you know, where the sale is completed) and buyers have a choice not to buy. That is a choice I highly value, and I know which "vintage pen sellers" I won't be buying from. Too many beautiful pens in this world to savour as it is; why subject the self to rudeness and condescension? And of course, these vendors should perhaps make a note on their respective websites: I won't sell to anyone who wants to be handled with professionalism.

As for vintage pens, the idea that vintage pens is some kind of hallowed club only for the elite and exclusive -- or those willing to be brutalized in a transaction -- is not something I can get behind. No doubt there are technical aspects to it, as there are to a good many things, but why should that lead to the creation of some mythical world full of culture and good pens? To be blunt, I roll my eyes.

[Farmboy]

I guess this applies to most "worlds".

15094

[mhosea]

I haven't bought from David's restored pens because his prices are usually too high for me (since low cache, user-grade pens tend to satisfy my vintage pen interests), but I wouldn't hesitate to do so if there was something I wanted for the price. David is meticulous in his examinations, exacting in his descriptions, and he employs the services of the best professional pen restorers. However, because selling pens isn't his "day job", I wouldn't expect snappy customer service, and because he doesn't restore the pens himself, I wouldn't expect him to diagnose and solve technical problems such as the one that started this incident. David, what is your process if there is a failure that the restorer would take under his warranty? Let us suppose that the OP's pen just needed the nib and feed reset to completely solve his problem. How would it have played out if he had bought the pen from you?

[ethernautrix]

Suspect some of you should opt not to buy old and perhaps new pens anymore.

regards

-d

Not the conclusion I came to, but to each his own....

Yeah. My interpretation of the story doesn't mean I fully supported the OP's position.

While I would have been satisfied with the option of a full refund, I would have appreciated the offer more without the "I can quickly sell to another who will not have this issue" remark. However, I also would have been more precise about describing the problem, that is, I would not have resorted to exaggeration.

But, you know. People. Whaddya gonna do?

[pengeezer]

Suspect some of you should opt not to buy old and perhaps new pens anymore.

regards

-d

Not the conclusion I came to, but to each his own....

Yeah. My interpretation of the story doesn't mean I fully supported the OP's position.

While I would have been satisfied with the option of a full refund, I would have appreciated the offer more without the "I can quickly sell to another who will not have this issue" remark. However, I also would have been more precise about describing the problem, that is, I would not have resorted to exaggeration.

But, you know. People. Whaddya gonna do?

Treat `em with grace and kindness.


John

[pengeezer]

There you go, thinking again.


I know......:(



John

[david i]

... baby step into the world of old pens and the culture of the hobby...

(Sorry David, that is just too funny to pass up)

That kind of thing always makes me laugh. It's not some arcane area of interest. Any 'culture' associated with them is a purely modern invention - probably to fuel exclusivity and boost prices.They weren't a mystery to our forbears, they aren't a mystery to us now. They are merely pens. Tools to be used as intended. They can be frustrating at times, but then what in life isn't, hmm?

The vintage pen cult is not really any different or any less a product of artifice than that found around moleskine notebooks or blackwing pencils (to name but two examples).

That's all just my opinion of course. I am not one to be swayed by hype on such matters is all.

All culture is an invention.

You can choose which culture matters to you.

And... here you are.

And... pens don't have a culture. The people are what make pens a hobby, and they have a culture.

-d

[Hawk]

Well said Purplepencils.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

All culture is an invention.

You can choose which culture matters to you.

And... here you are.

And... pens don't have a culture. The people are what make pens a hobby, and they have a culture.


True, but not any different from what I previously stated. When some people try to elevate their chosen 'culture' into something more than it is though that is when the eyes start rolling. And I see a more of that attempted elevation from dealers than from buyers. Perhaps that is to be expected but it doesn't make it valid.


And anyway, my point was that the 'culture' around vintage pens is a recent invention. There was a time when these vintage pens weren't vintage and people saw them as nothing more than tools to write with. They still are. Nothing has really changed. Old is just old. It doesn't imply greatness or exclusivity. There are many more terrible vintage pens available than good ones.

[Jon Szanto]

There are many more terrible vintage pens available than good ones.

And, in a nutshell, you've implied a hierarchy, and a value. The good ones are worth more, and we're off to the races...

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Yes, but they are still only pens, not the lost grimoires of Merlin the Magician. That kind of was the point about the 'culture'. As I have experienced it the 'culture' around good vintage pens suggests that they are somehow the exclusive provenance of the favoured few, that they are somehow devices of special complexity that cannot be understood by ordinary folks. Clearly this totally absurd as they were all used by ordinary folks with no special knowledge back in their day. Of course, because of their dwindling supply and this artificial 'club culture' the prices are rocketing beyond the point where most people can comfortably afford them. Being wealthy does not make a person a better recipient for a decent vintage pen. It doesn't exclude them either, but the prices have effectively excluded most everyone else. Not a special moment really.

[Jon Szanto]

"Back in their day" there were all manner of writing instruments, from the very common and pedestrian models (for the "ordinary folk", as you call them), all the way up to very fancy, bespoke items. Even when they were currently the common tool, there was a range of real and perceived values. To expect this to no longer exist or to have abated seems odd. I don't quite see the caste system of pen ownership that you do, any more than I see it everywhere else: there are people who can, and do, purchase things that are more expensive than I could ever afford. I don't expect that to change.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I see. Well I was not talking about whether one can afford to buy or not. I was talking about the deliberately cultured perception that one needs to be an initiate to use what were, in their day, nothing more than tools to write with. Hell, I picked up a dip pen for the first time ever just a few weeks ago, dipped it, wrote with it. No problem. So much for it being an arcane practice. And I am not exceptional by any standard.

How a pen works and how it should be used are not mysteries of exclusivity. I feel that some vendors promote it that way though.

[Jon Szanto]

How a pen works and how it should be used are not mysteries of exclusivity. I feel that some vendors promote it that way though.

I apologize if I somehow didn't fully catch the main point you were making. I have to say, though, I don't really observe that, at least to any great extent. That a vendor (or art dealer, or performer, etc) would engage in that manner of promotion, though, I don't find surprising. There is value, and then there is perceived value, and the altering of other's perceptions is a very old game, is it not?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

No apology necessary, I was simply replying for clarity. And yes, the altering of others' perceptions is indeed a very old game! :) One that I fight against all the time.

[Cob]

I see. Well I was not talking about whether one can afford to buy or not. I was talking about the deliberately cultured perception that one needs to be an initiate to use what were, in their day, nothing more than tools to write with. Hell, I picked up a dip pen for the first time ever just a few weeks ago, dipped it, wrote with it. No problem. So much for it being an arcane practice. And I am not exceptional by any standard.

How a pen works and how it should be used are not mysteries of exclusivity. I feel that some vendors promote it that way though.

Well done you: I am absolutely fed up with trying to write with a dip pen - two or three letters - maybe a whole (small) word and then another dip, another blot and off we go again.

I have washed nibs in acetone, daubed them with saliva, all to no avail. No more dipping for me - unless I am actually seeking a seizure!

Cob

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Oh it was nothing really. I just treated them as if they were fountain pen nibs. There's the purely technical aspect of getting the ink to stay on the nib of course. Beyond that, for normal writing I didn't find they were that much different from anything else. I'm not talking about any kind of special script here though, as that takes practice irrespective of the instrument. Not for everyone perhaps, but not the big mystery it's made out to be either.

[david i]

Here's my opinion (and no one should take it as fact, before logic police come out raging):

In addition to all that, it is apparent to me that David is essentially the man who thinks Greg can do no wrong, perhaps because he has experienced horrible customers before.

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: Lie.

I do invite evidence that I am essentially the man who thinks anyone (subset, "Greg") can do no wrong.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debaters Manual: The Telepath: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent.



Note that I am not saying that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong.

Hmmm... one wonders if anyone would say that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong. What a weird thing to have to deny.



What I'm saying is that David's highly obvious biases are just that: biases.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent"


Just as the OP refuses to see how he might have contributed to and indeed exacerbated the ugly situation. Indeed, what was offensive about the last series of communications posted? Virtually nothing. However, for most reasonable souls on this board, it is entirely possible to take the vendor, the OP and David with large mounds of salt (as I have).


Tactic 48 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, invest in salt.



Insulting the vendor to no end -- and in the case of David, insulting everyone who does not agree with him -- simply reflects very badly on them. If anything, all three come out (again, my opinion, no one has to like or share it) smelling like rubbish.

Tactic 41 from the LDM: "When you having nothing of substance to offer in debate, bleat about insults"

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Ad Hominem insult"


And of course, these vendors should perhaps make a note on their respective websites: I won't sell to anyone who wants to be handled with professionalism.


Tactic 23 from the LDM: When you have nothing to substance to offer in debate, profess to instruct your opponents on how they should conduct themselves. Excellent.



As for vintage pens, the idea that vintage pens is some kind of hallowed club only for the elite and exclusive -- or those willing to be brutalized in a transaction -- is not something I can get behind.

Tactic 4 from the LDM: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, attempt to distract via the Straw Man.

(Whether or not vintage pens are a hallowed club only for the exclusive or elite, no one has asserted this and no one has provided evidence for it, and even if someone had -- which I did not-- this has nothing to do with Original Post writer's situation).

Too, I invite evidence that anyone has been brutalized ever via the process of doing a pen transaction. Hospital records are invited.



No doubt there are technical aspects to it, as there are to a good many things, but why should that lead to the creation of some mythical world full of culture and good pens? To be blunt, I roll my eyes.

I invite evidence that creation of a mythical world has been asserted in this conversation. Just sayin'...

regards

-d

[david i]

... baby step into the world of old pens and the culture of the hobby...

(Sorry David, that is just too funny to pass up)

That kind of thing always makes me laugh. It's not some arcane area of interest. Any 'culture' associated with them is a purely modern invention - probably to fuel exclusivity and boost prices.They weren't a mystery to our forbears, they aren't a mystery to us now. They are merely pens. Tools to be used as intended. They can be frustrating at times, but then what in life isn't, hmm?

The vintage pen cult is not really any different or any less a product of artifice than that found around moleskine notebooks or blackwing pencils (to name but two examples).

That's all just my opinion of course. I am not one to be swayed by hype on such matters is all.

Funnier still is that you think any culture of our hobby has much of anything to do with pens per se.

And also funny is anyone thinking that any culture is not an invention.

Also funny is thinking that it matters if our culture is different from that found around any other object of interest.

Perhaps we can explore meaning of words, if this remains unclear to any reader.

regards

-d

[david i]

... baby step into the world of old pens and the culture of the hobby...

(Sorry David, that is just too funny to pass up)

That kind of thing always makes me laugh. It's not some arcane area of interest. Any 'culture' associated with them is a purely modern invention - probably to fuel exclusivity and boost prices.They weren't a mystery to our forbears, they aren't a mystery to us now. They are merely pens. Tools to be used as intended. They can be frustrating at times, but then what in life isn't, hmm?

The vintage pen cult is not really any different or any less a product of artifice than that found around moleskine notebooks or blackwing pencils (to name but two examples).

That's all just my opinion of course. I am not one to be swayed by hype on such matters is all.

Well said. There are always people who benefit from maintaining some artificial mystique around things, for example computer/IT "experts". They like to make people feel dependent on them, and to disempower users. I once considered vintage pens to be scary, sacred things that plebs like me shouldn't mess with. Now I've seen the insides of many pens, seen nibs swapped about, replaced, smoothed, stubbed, frankenpens created, etc etc, and I realise that only a minority are the complicated pieces of equipment I once thought they were. The main benefit of vintage pen sellers is that they have good networks, affording access to supplies of great old pens.


I do find it fascinating that those who do not connect with the notion of culture-of-hobby seem so focused on mysticism.

Excellent.

-d

[david i]

When some people try to elevate their chosen 'culture' into something more than it is though that is when the eyes start rolling. And I see a more of that attempted elevation from dealers than from buyers. Perhaps that is to be expected but it doesn't make it valid.

A nonsense statement.

No evidence has been presented in this discussion defining "what it is" or that anyone has elevated anything into "more than what it is".

Eye rolling though is a charming and entertaining response by those without issues-oriented material to present.



And anyway, my point was that the 'culture' around vintage pens is a recent invention.

An irrelevancy. The hobby of vintage pens is a recent invention. Any activity or view of it by necessity will be a recent invention.

Or, as great men have said... "So?"


There was a time when these vintage pens weren't vintage and people saw them as nothing more than tools to write with.


So?


They still are. Nothing has really changed. Old is just old. It doesn't imply greatness or exclusivity.

So?



There are many more terrible vintage pens available than good ones.

So?

regards

-d

[david i]

The vender did fix the problem promptly.

The question was whether the pen, itself, was fixed. That the vendor made his own life easier is not in question, but he did so by fixing his "problem", not the pen.

Jon raises an interesting question, moving beyond the parsing of the word "fix".

What obligation does anyone have who sells a product that turns out to be defective?

I'm not an attorney, but I believe we can explore a rudimentary legal interpretation and certainly can explore the philosophical interpretation.

For the sake of this mini-discussion, I will assert the following given. If these givens were not to hold, this conversation likely could not proceed.


The Seller was unaware the item was flawed
The Buyer is correct that the item actually is flawed
The item was not sold "as is"
The seller and the buyer both wish to be reasonable regarding the item




For a truly flawed item, three options appear to be in play.



Fix the flawed item
Refund the flawed item
Refund the flawed item (or fix it) AND pay for peripheral damages (to be explored below)




For the moment I will skip the who pays postage and other trivia.

When something is purchased that does not function properly, I see two types of damages in play.



Loss of the value of the item, were it not flawed
Injury/Damage to life or property due to the flawed function of purchased item




In the case of an item that is flawed but which has done no harm to person or property due to the flaw, refund or repair are valid remediations. If the flawed item, causes harm, more remediation might be in play.

If I buy a fountain pen that won't write right, there is no peripheral damage barring, say, my being poisoned by toxic ink spilling on my hand or by having the pen blot an important contract costing me my first big business deal (and that latter case can be hard to prove). I thus am out only the value of pen, of shipping cost, and a very hard to prove opportunity cost of the time spent dealing with the dealer to solve the problem. On other hand, if I have an epidural injection with pre-packaged steroid that turns out to be contaminated by fungus, and I die of fungal meningitis, then the "fix" for the flawed item likely will be more substantial.

In the case of this flawed pen, the buyer never asserted peripheral damages. Refund or repair both are ethical solutions. I further assert it is the seller's right to opt not to pursue a physical repair of item if he favors refund, as there are limits to how and when he must invest extra time in a flawed pen. If he chooses, after refund, to let it lie about for a month before getting to it, or offering it again "as is", that is his choice once he has refunded the pen.

regards

-d


Hi Jon,

I thought we'd have some follow up to this analysis.

regards

-David

[Hawk]

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: Lie.

I do invite evidence that I am essentially the man who thanks anyone (subset, "Greg") can do no wrong.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debaters Manual: The Telepath: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent.



Note that I am not saying that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong.

Hmmm... one wonders if anyone would say that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong. What a weird thing to have to deny.



What I'm saying is that David's highly obvious biases are just that: biases.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent"


Just as the OP refuses to see how he might have contributed to and indeed exacerbated the ugly situation. Indeed, what was offensive about the last series of communications posted? Virtually nothing. However, for most reasonable souls on this board, it is entirely possible to take the vendor, the OP and David with large mounds of salt (as I have).


Tactic 48 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, invest in salt.



Insulting the vendor to no end -- and in the case of David, insulting everyone who does not agree with him -- simply reflects very badly on them. If anything, all three come out (again, my opinion, no one has to like or share it) smelling like rubbish.

Tactic 41 from the LDM: "When you having nothing of substance to offer in debate, bleat about insults"

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Ad Hominem insult"


And of course, these vendors should perhaps make a note on their respective websites: I won't sell to anyone who wants to be handled with professionalism.


Tactic 23 from the LDM: When you have nothing to substance to offer in debate, profess to instruct your opponents on how they should conduct themselves. Excellent.



As for vintage pens, the idea that vintage pens is some kind of hallowed club only for the elite and exclusive -- or those willing to be brutalized in a transaction -- is not something I can get behind.

Tactic 4 from the LDM: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, attempt to distract via the Straw Man.

(Whether or not vintage pens are a hallowed club only for the exlusive or elite, or whether, no one has asserted this and no one has provided evidence for it, and in any case it has nothing to do with Original Post writer's situation).

Too, I invite evidence that anyone has been brutalized ever via the process of doing a pen transaction. Hospital records are invited.



No doubt there are technical aspects to it, as there are to a good many things, but why should that lead to the creation of some mythical world full of culture and good pens? To be blunt, I roll my eyes.

I invite evidence that creation of a mythical world has been asserted in this conversation. Just sayin'...

regards

-d

Where can one get a copy of the Losing Debater's Manual?

[david i]

I haven't bought from David's restored pens because his prices are usually too high for me (since low cache, user-grade pens tend to satisfy my vintage pen interests), but I wouldn't hesitate to do so if there was something I wanted for the price. David is meticulous in his examinations, exacting in his descriptions, and he employs the services of the best professional pen restorers. However, because selling pens isn't his "day job", I wouldn't expect snappy customer service, and because he doesn't restore the pens himself, I wouldn't expect him to diagnose and solve technical problems such as the one that started this incident. David, what is your process if there is a failure that the restorer would take under his warranty? Let us suppose that the OP's pen just needed the nib and feed reset to completely solve his problem. How would it have played out if he had bought the pen from you?

Hi Mike,

Spent the day sorting about 2000 fountain pens with help from Erano. Should be an interesting year on the old-pens front. I'm catching up now on posts here before I head out to dinner in sunny NYC. I dispensed first with the silly posts and now see you had a post of substance. Excellent. I'm happy to explore the issues you raise. I can't promise the answers/observations will satisfy.

Though I have sound knowledge of many aspects of grading, market value, collecting context for many series of old pens-- still with more to learn than I know already no doubt-- I do try to be careful in examining pens and describing them for sale (or for the hobby academic articles). I do try to be accurate, but even in describing pens I have in the past missed things. I also don't do my own restorations for the most part. And, I admit with wry resignation (amusement? bemusement?) that service from my website has been fairly poor of late. I have had heavy exposure to advanced restorers, and I often have a sense at least of what might be wrong with a pen based on description/observation of problems.

My process for failure of a pen under warranty by one of "my" restorers? It is an issue that does not arise often, in no small part (seriously) because I generally have not been getting pens to the website within a year of getting them back from the restorers, such that the warranty I have from my restorers is no longer in play. Oh... the pain. That said, in some cases I get a bit of extra wiggle, what with having had hundreds of pens (or more) done by each of a number of nice people who do pen restorations, people I have met in many cases dozens of time (or had dinner with weekly for ten years), with whom I have shared meals at pen shows, who have variably educated me and been educated by me over the years regarding various nuances of collecting, with whom I have shared the setting of scotch and philosophy while exploring the culture of collectable pendom (which actually has quite little to do with pens).

So, my situation is a bit atypical. Most of the people who fix pens for me are either personal friends or friendly acquaintances. And, I do give them a great deal of business. Even if a pen utterly fails to write or fill when I send to a customer at 1.3 years (pen unused during the gap), those restorers will often take look and do tweak as courtesy, though I don't expect that as given and though I certainly don't insist on it.

And the circumstances are a bit different from that of the OP's case (Pen sold as "with a new sac", not per se fully restored), in that what I am buying from my restorers is... go figure... restoration. Pens that have problem within the year window, they take care of for me in one of a couple-few ways. Get ready for it.

Since the service provided by them was restoration, the flawed pen typically is addressed again, the flaw identified, and the flaw fixed. Yay.

If the restorer cannot fix the flaw simply because he cannot find it or properly execute the repair or finds it would destroy his business model requiring (I imagine for this case) 5 hours work, he will typically credit me the value of the repair as refund or against future work (essentially what Greg did in refunding the flawed pen). Happens rarely, and I express understanding.

If restorer can't fix pen but believes another restorer might have better luck (again, rare problem), I'd use the credit to send pen elsewhere, often with plea to one of my other regular restorers for a fast fix, since pen already was sold to eager customer.

Along with all this, I generally offer to my customer the option of refund instead of delay for repair, since I figure he wanted to buy a working pen and might not be happy waiting 2 weeks to a couple months to get his pen back again and might prefer to use the cash to buy another pen from me or from someone else.

If ultimately I cannot get the pen fixed, even if customer was not eager for refund and didn't mind delay for the attempt, I of course refund the pen.


Let us suppose that the OP's pen just needed the nib and feed reset to completely solve his problem. How would it have played out if he had bought the pen from you?

There are nuances. In general case I would inform customer pen will be sent to a restorer for re-tweak. I generally would try to get the problem solved and the pen returned. I might be biased by prior interactions, sense of worry based on verbiage from customer about likelihood of meeting expectations and that sort. My views of the time vs money interaction of course are not those of everyone. A tough re-restoration for "me" just involves sending the pen out to someone else.

As an aside, I can tell you some very funny stories about restoration gone awry. I've worked with exactly no restorer who has not had pens occasionally back for second go. On occasion when I've had emergency re-repair necessary I've sometimes gone to local restorer despite pen having been under warranty from restorer far away, simply for convenience.

And, all this is tip of iceberg. Join us at pen show again for evening "culture of pendom", and we'll share some more stories.

regards

d

[david i]

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: Lie.

I do invite evidence that I am essentially the man who thanks anyone (subset, "Greg") can do no wrong.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debaters Manual: The Telepath: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent.



Note that I am not saying that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong.

Hmmm... one wonders if anyone would say that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong. What a weird thing to have to deny.



What I'm saying is that David's highly obvious biases are just that: biases.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent"


Just as the OP refuses to see how he might have contributed to and indeed exacerbated the ugly situation. Indeed, what was offensive about the last series of communications posted? Virtually nothing. However, for most reasonable souls on this board, it is entirely possible to take the vendor, the OP and David with large mounds of salt (as I have).


Tactic 48 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, invest in salt.



Insulting the vendor to no end -- and in the case of David, insulting everyone who does not agree with him -- simply reflects very badly on them. If anything, all three come out (again, my opinion, no one has to like or share it) smelling like rubbish.

Tactic 41 from the LDM: "When you having nothing of substance to offer in debate, bleat about insults"

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Ad Hominem insult"


And of course, these vendors should perhaps make a note on their respective websites: I won't sell to anyone who wants to be handled with professionalism.


Tactic 23 from the LDM: When you have nothing to substance to offer in debate, profess to instruct your opponents on how they should conduct themselves. Excellent.



As for vintage pens, the idea that vintage pens is some kind of hallowed club only for the elite and exclusive -- or those willing to be brutalized in a transaction -- is not something I can get behind.

Tactic 4 from the LDM: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, attempt to distract via the Straw Man.

(Whether or not vintage pens are a hallowed club only for the exlusive or elite, or whether, no one has asserted this and no one has provided evidence for it, and in any case it has nothing to do with Original Post writer's situation).

Too, I invite evidence that anyone has been brutalized ever via the process of doing a pen transaction. Hospital records are invited.



No doubt there are technical aspects to it, as there are to a good many things, but why should that lead to the creation of some mythical world full of culture and good pens? To be blunt, I roll my eyes.

I invite evidence that creation of a mythical world has been asserted in this conversation. Just sayin'...

regards

-d

Where can one get a copy of the Losing Debater's Manual?


People seem to keep asking that. ;)

Perhaps one day soon...

regards

-David

[david i]

Yes, but they are still only pens.

Yet, here you are...

regards

d

[david i]

I see. Well I was not talking about whether one can afford to buy or not. I was talking about the deliberately cultured perception that one needs to be an initiate to use what were, in their day, nothing more than tools to write with. Hell, I picked up a dip pen for the first time ever just a few weeks ago, dipped it, wrote with it. No problem. So much for it being an arcane practice. And I am not exceptional by any standard.

How a pen works and how it should be used are not mysteries of exclusivity. I feel that some vendors promote it that way though.

I invite evidence.

regards

David

[gbryal]

What remains to be discussed on this transaction between pluvia and Greg Minuskin? First-hand relevant information isn't being produced anymore and the thread is now analysis and analysis of that analysis and its analyzers. If the purpose of this thread is to help other buyers (and sellers) make a choice regarding who gets their business, I think everything we needed to make a choice was posted pages ago.

Is there new information or is this thread done?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

It's done for me.


I invite evidence.

My 'evidence' for vendors pushing the 'mystique' of vintage fountain pens is purely anecdotal. That, however, does not make it invalid. This is a conversation after all and not a scientific debate. Some people appear to have some difficulty in distinguishing which is which. Oh, and by the way, David I. bringing up the Loser's Debating Manual at each and every opportunity is probably covered by one of its own rules... perhaps something about shouting the loudest?

Have fun peeps!

[david i]

What remains to be discussed on this transaction between pluvia and Greg Minuskin? First-hand relevant information isn't being produced anymore and the thread is now analysis and analysis of that analysis and its analyzers. If the purpose of this thread is to help other buyers (and sellers) make a choice regarding who gets their business, I think everything we needed to make a choice was posted pages ago.

Is there new information or is this thread done?

I'm enjoying it...

regards

-d

[david i]

It's done for me.


I invite evidence.

My 'evidence' for vendors pushing the 'mystique' of vintage fountain pens is purely anecdotal. That, however, does not make it invalid. This is a conversation after all and not a scientific debate. Some people appear to have some difficulty in distinguishing which is which. Oh, and by the way, David I. bringing up the Loser's Debating Manual at each and every opportunity is probably covered by one of its own rules... perhaps something about shouting the loudest?

Have fun peeps!


So... you have your belief system.

Excellent.

Your acknowledgement of the LDM is your first step to embracing the wisdom of the LDM, but prepare for a long path...

regards

david

[Hawk]

s

It's done for me.


I invite evidence.

My 'evidence' for vendors pushing the 'mystique' of vintage fountain pens is purely anecdotal. That, however, does not make it invalid. This is a conversation after all and not a scientific debate. Some people appear to have some difficulty in distinguishing which is which. Oh, and by the way, David I. bringing up the Loser's Debating Manual at each and every opportunity is probably covered by one of its own rules... perhaps something about shouting the loudest?

Have fun peeps!


So... you have your belief system.

Excellent.

Your acknowledgement of the LDM is your first step to embracing the wisdom of the LDM, but prepare for a long path...

regards

david

If the manual is not in print or eprint form, my brain finds it difficult to embrace the wisdom.
Maybe this is off topic and better served as its own topic. I observe more than I comment so I don't feel I can make that determination.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

You know, just address one point. If I see something happen and report it, that is anecdotal evidence. It does not constitute a 'belief system'. That is all.

[david i]

s

It's done for me.


I invite evidence.

My 'evidence' for vendors pushing the 'mystique' of vintage fountain pens is purely anecdotal. That, however, does not make it invalid. This is a conversation after all and not a scientific debate. Some people appear to have some difficulty in distinguishing which is which. Oh, and by the way, David I. bringing up the Loser's Debating Manual at each and every opportunity is probably covered by one of its own rules... perhaps something about shouting the loudest?

Have fun peeps!


So... you have your belief system.

Excellent.

Your acknowledgement of the LDM is your first step to embracing the wisdom of the LDM, but prepare for a long path...

regards

david

If the manual is not in print or eprint form, my brain finds it difficult to embrace the wisdom.
Maybe this is off topic and better served as its own topic. I observe more than I comment so I don't feel I can make that determination.


I respect that your brain finds difficult it to embrace wisdom that is found only in print or eprint form.

Weird thing is, most of my collecting wisdom has come from a master-journeyman dynamic in which I gained knowledge and insight from people via a transmission process involving mainly conversation. But, to each his own.

regards

david

[david i]

You know, just address one point. If I see something happen and report it, that is anecdotal evidence. It does not constitute a 'belief system'. That is all.

It is a happy thing for you, i suppose, that you believe what you see.

-d

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Crass, much?

[Hawk]

e

s

It's done for me.


I invite evidence.

My 'evidence' for vendors pushing the 'mystique' of vintage fountain pens is purely anecdotal. That, however, does not make it invalid. This is a conversation after all and not a scientific debate. Some people appear to have some difficulty in distinguishing which is which. Oh, and by the way, David I. bringing up the Loser's Debating Manual at each and every opportunity is probably covered by one of its own rules... perhaps something about shouting the loudest?

Have fun peeps!


So... you have your belief system.

Excellent.

Your acknowledgement of the LDM is your first step to embracing the wisdom of the LDM, but prepare for a long path...

regards

david

If the manual is not in print or eprint form, my brain finds it difficult to embrace the wisdom.
Maybe this is off topic and better served as its own topic. I observe more than I comment so I don't feel I can make that determination.


I respect that your brain finds difficult it to embrace wisdom that is found only in print or eprint form.

Weird thing is, most of my collecting wisdom has come from a master-journeyman dynamic in which I gained knowledge and insight from people via a transmission process involving mainly conversation. But, to each his own.

regards

david

Pardon me, I thought the LDM had to do with debating.... Since it appears that there are over 40 tactics to study and understand, visual help, especially when the tactics are numbered, would help me embrace the wisdom of the LDM and not wisdom in general.
In collecting, interacting with people in the business/work world, I understand the M-J dynamics because I have experienced both, I call that learning. Yes, there is often healthy questioning, debating in the business/work world as well as in the hobby/collecting arena which increases ones knowledge and or wisdom. In that relm, I also use conversation in the verbal as well as the visual processes. I remember blackboards, but I digress....

[david i]

e

s

It's done for me.


I invite evidence.

My 'evidence' for vendors pushing the 'mystique' of vintage fountain pens is purely anecdotal. That, however, does not make it invalid. This is a conversation after all and not a scientific debate. Some people appear to have some difficulty in distinguishing which is which. Oh, and by the way, David I. bringing up the Loser's Debating Manual at each and every opportunity is probably covered by one of its own rules... perhaps something about shouting the loudest?

Have fun peeps!


So... you have your belief system.

Excellent.

Your acknowledgement of the LDM is your first step to embracing the wisdom of the LDM, but prepare for a long path...

regards

david

If the manual is not in print or eprint form, my brain finds it difficult to embrace the wisdom.
Maybe this is off topic and better served as its own topic. I observe more than I comment so I don't feel I can make that determination.


I respect that your brain finds difficult it to embrace wisdom that is found only in print or eprint form.

Weird thing is, most of my collecting wisdom has come from a master-journeyman dynamic in which I gained knowledge and insight from people via a transmission process involving mainly conversation. But, to each his own.

regards

david

Pardon me, I thought the LDM had to do with debating.... Since it appears that there are over 40 tactics to study and understand, visual help, especially when the tactics are numbered, would help me embrace the wisdom of the LDM and not wisdom in general.
In collecting, interacting with people in the business/work world, I understand the M-J dynamics because I have experienced both, I call that learning. Yes, there is often healthy questioning, debating in the business/work world as well as in the hobby/collecting arena which increases ones knowledge and or wisdom. In that relm, I also use conversation in the verbal as well as the visual processes. I remember blackboards, but I digress....

LDM does have to do with debating. Too, eating has to do with avoiding malnutrition, but dinner at my favorite steakhouse has elements that transcend that specific.

I believe no one claimed the wisdom of the LDM is wisdom in general, though there might be merit in exploring whether wisdom in specific arenas indeed can/does offer wisdom in general.

I'm not sure why you request pardon regarding your notion that visual help would aid with embracing the wisdom of the LDM. No one previously had suggested that visual help would not aid with embracing the wisdom of the LDM.

If the pressure to publish grows, I will give greater consideration to that process.

-d

[david i]

Crass, much?


Poprocks much?

[Farmboy]

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: Lie.

I do invite evidence that I am essentially the man who thanks anyone (subset, "Greg") can do no wrong.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debaters Manual: The Telepath: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent.



Note that I am not saying that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong.

Hmmm... one wonders if anyone would say that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong. What a weird thing to have to deny.



What I'm saying is that David's highly obvious biases are just that: biases.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent"


Just as the OP refuses to see how he might have contributed to and indeed exacerbated the ugly situation. Indeed, what was offensive about the last series of communications posted? Virtually nothing. However, for most reasonable souls on this board, it is entirely possible to take the vendor, the OP and David with large mounds of salt (as I have).


Tactic 48 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, invest in salt.



Insulting the vendor to no end -- and in the case of David, insulting everyone who does not agree with him -- simply reflects very badly on them. If anything, all three come out (again, my opinion, no one has to like or share it) smelling like rubbish.

Tactic 41 from the LDM: "When you having nothing of substance to offer in debate, bleat about insults"

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Ad Hominem insult"


And of course, these vendors should perhaps make a note on their respective websites: I won't sell to anyone who wants to be handled with professionalism.


Tactic 23 from the LDM: When you have nothing to substance to offer in debate, profess to instruct your opponents on how they should conduct themselves. Excellent.



As for vintage pens, the idea that vintage pens is some kind of hallowed club only for the elite and exclusive -- or those willing to be brutalized in a transaction -- is not something I can get behind.

Tactic 4 from the LDM: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, attempt to distract via the Straw Man.

(Whether or not vintage pens are a hallowed club only for the exlusive or elite, or whether, no one has asserted this and no one has provided evidence for it, and in any case it has nothing to do with Original Post writer's situation).

Too, I invite evidence that anyone has been brutalized ever via the process of doing a pen transaction. Hospital records are invited.



No doubt there are technical aspects to it, as there are to a good many things, but why should that lead to the creation of some mythical world full of culture and good pens? To be blunt, I roll my eyes.

I invite evidence that creation of a mythical world has been asserted in this conversation. Just sayin'...

regards

-d

Where can one get a copy of the Losing Debater's Manual?


People seem to keep asking that. ;)

Perhaps one day soon...

regards

-David
I have tracked down what I believe to be a first or second printing of the first edition in fairly good condition in a dusty used bookstore in the Southwest. Because the asking price is substantial, I need to go see the book before I purchase it. Rest assured, you will not find the store where this treasure is located. Once I have it, I may post scans though the book has undergone many editions since the first.

[david i]

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: Lie.

I do invite evidence that I am essentially the man who thanks anyone (subset, "Greg") can do no wrong.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debaters Manual: The Telepath: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent.



Note that I am not saying that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong.

Hmmm... one wonders if anyone would say that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong. What a weird thing to have to deny.



What I'm saying is that David's highly obvious biases are just that: biases.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent"


Just as the OP refuses to see how he might have contributed to and indeed exacerbated the ugly situation. Indeed, what was offensive about the last series of communications posted? Virtually nothing. However, for most reasonable souls on this board, it is entirely possible to take the vendor, the OP and David with large mounds of salt (as I have).


Tactic 48 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, invest in salt.



Insulting the vendor to no end -- and in the case of David, insulting everyone who does not agree with him -- simply reflects very badly on them. If anything, all three come out (again, my opinion, no one has to like or share it) smelling like rubbish.

Tactic 41 from the LDM: "When you having nothing of substance to offer in debate, bleat about insults"

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Ad Hominem insult"


And of course, these vendors should perhaps make a note on their respective websites: I won't sell to anyone who wants to be handled with professionalism.


Tactic 23 from the LDM: When you have nothing to substance to offer in debate, profess to instruct your opponents on how they should conduct themselves. Excellent.



As for vintage pens, the idea that vintage pens is some kind of hallowed club only for the elite and exclusive -- or those willing to be brutalized in a transaction -- is not something I can get behind.

Tactic 4 from the LDM: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, attempt to distract via the Straw Man.

(Whether or not vintage pens are a hallowed club only for the exlusive or elite, or whether, no one has asserted this and no one has provided evidence for it, and in any case it has nothing to do with Original Post writer's situation).

Too, I invite evidence that anyone has been brutalized ever via the process of doing a pen transaction. Hospital records are invited.



No doubt there are technical aspects to it, as there are to a good many things, but why should that lead to the creation of some mythical world full of culture and good pens? To be blunt, I roll my eyes.

I invite evidence that creation of a mythical world has been asserted in this conversation. Just sayin'...

regards

-d

Where can one get a copy of the Losing Debater's Manual?


People seem to keep asking that. ;)

Perhaps one day soon...

regards

-David
I have tracked down what I believe to be a first or second printing of the first edition in fairly good condition in a dusty used bookstore in the Southwest. Because the asking price is substantial, I need to go see the book before I purchase it. Rest assured, you will not find the store where this treasure is located. Once I have it, I may post scans though the book has undergone many editions since the first.


Hey as long as it's in the public domain, please do share. It'll spare me some work. Besides... i'm a big believer in distributing public domain material :)

-d

[Deb]

Stop. feeding. the. troll.

[Neo]

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

George Bernard Shaw

[Finalist]

Tactic 254 from the Winner's Debating Manual:

Sometimes you have to shout loudly only one time, and people will get your point.

[mhosea]

After a quarter century of this online discussion nonsense, I've developed some informal guidelines when I'm engaged in internet debates. They developed as defensive mechanisms to keep me from being emotionally consumed. Unfortunately, I've never bothered to formalize them, but anyway, mine might not work for everyone. It seems to me that there might be a market for a book that studies effective strategies for communicating in internet forums. One of the things that I'm sure would be in there is avoiding more than two quotes from the same response. Point-counterpoint style debating in batch mode is too tedious for most onlookers and frequently, I fear, even for some of those participating in the debate. I stopped doing it when I realized that even the person I was arguing with was not taking the time to read my responses. You really don't want to start writing things that nobody (else) reads.

[david i]

Stop. feeding. the. troll.

Where?

-d

[david i]

Tactic 254 from the Winner's Debating Manual:

Sometimes you have to shout loudly only one time, and people will get your point.

Actually, that's not Tactic 254, but it is grand to see the word getting out :)

-d

[david i]

After a quarter century of this online discussion nonsense, I've developed some informal guidelines when I'm engaged in internet debates. They developed as defensive mechanisms to keep me from being emotionally consumed. Unfortunately, I've never bothered to formalize them, but anyway, mine might not work for everyone. It seems to me that there might be a market for a book that studies effective strategies for communicating in internet forums. One of the things that I'm sure would be in there is avoiding more than two quotes from the same response. Point-counterpoint style debating in batch mode is too tedious for most onlookers and frequently, I fear, even for some of those participating in the debate. I stopped doing it when I realized that even the person I was arguing with was not taking the time to read my responses. You really don't want to start writing things that nobody (else) reads.

That could well be true, but then often those who don't want to step up to the plate are welcome not to.

I'm ready though for someone to use Tactic 2 from the LDM. A bit surprised no one went there.

regads

-d

[Finalist]

This isn't even fun anymore. I miss the Greg talk.

[david i]

This isn't even fun anymore. I miss the Greg talk.


Greg talk it is...

This one soon will go to Greg, one of just a handful of nib retippers on the planet.

Parker Duofold Senior. 1930-ish. Well preserved black-and-pearl color. Big Duofold nib that has lost it "iridium" tipping.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/parkerduofoldsenior_blackpearl_badnib950a.jpg

regards

-d

[david i]

So, "Greg Talk"

Someone had mentioned anecdotes.

Ok.

Anecdote.

So, I was at the Los Angeles Pen Show this year. Hack-Amateur-Newbie Davey. 15th year there. My status of wee dabbler in pendom notwithstanding, I do pretty big business at LA. Tends to be in my top couple sales shows each year, and with careful buying, usually en masse, the last couple years I've dropped $15k or so on up to 200 pens each year. I've picked up everything from prototype Parker Vacumatics to Sheaffer Levenger transparent Connaisseurs, the latter by the fistful. It's one of the best shows for the culture-of-pendom: nice climate, great food in walking distance, huge lounge with couches and adjacent bar, the works.

I tend to get a bit discombobulated at the shows. Lack of sleep. Kid in candy store. Sensory overload. Zillions of pens to screen to find a few for my collection and a hundred for the website. A wonderful thing, truly.

So. I had bought fifteen pens from a collector who was liquidating. As we were wrapping up, I spotted a Wahl-Eversharp Skyline Executive set in box. The Executive is the oversized Skyline. It is scarce, more scarce in general than period Parker and Sheaffer oversized pens. Often it is missed as it looks very similar to the standard model. I asked price and he tossed it in at $100. The set is a $400+ item. I bought it.

Few hours later, I was sitting at my table, next to Mike Dvoretz, with whom I've roomed at the show since 2000. I was sharing the finds from the last few hours and realized I could not find the Executive set. Checked "everywhere". No luck. Not first time I've lost something at a pen show. I have habit of-- even with my battle vest in play, loaded with pens-- carrying pens, sets, loupes in hand, putting them down at sales tables when looking at fresh pens, then forgetting them.

So, I made an announcement overhead about the missing set.

Figure 10 minutes later Doug Berg pops over to my table. Figure earlier in the day we'd been discussing leaving pens at tables at pen shows. I've bought some great pens from Doug over the years, and he manages even now to come up with killer pens. He grins and makes an appropriately sarcastic comment about discombobulation at pen shows, then notes that an hour earlier his tablemate- Greg- said, "Hey, what's this Wahl set. Is it yours?". Doug and Greg realized neither of them had brought the set. Doug knew enough about Wahl to identify it as an Executive, not just a typical Skyline. I'd been there hours earlier gabbing about collecting/repairing/dealing in old pens.

Greg could have kept the set. No one would have known.

And, now, damnit, I need to find and photograph that set, to lend image to story. But, with arranging thousands of pens in the new cabinet this week, not sure I can find it.

regards

-d

[Jon Szanto]

At the SF Pen Show in August, I was making my last rounds before getting in the car and hitting the road for 7 hours. This included a last chat with Paul Erano, with whom I had a number of good visits during the 3 days. I soon left, and was about 2 hours out, partway down I-5 in the Central Valley, when a text came in...

Good friend Loren asking "Are you missing a pen case... with 3 pens in it?"

Yes, I had left my Nock case with three of the purchases from the show (new Skyline from Syd, killer 51 from John Strother, a wild Ranga/Sheaffer hybrid from Teri Morris) sitting on Paul's table. He started asking around, eventually landing both Greg W. and (I believe) Gary N., who then got to Loren (these three are all good friends from the Pen Posse). They hung onto it. They took all my pens to a Posse and everyone played with them... but in doing so, completely filled a Steve Curnow "Backpocket Journal" with birthday wishes for me! After that, dear Loren mailed it appropriately, only to have the idiots in one of the LA USPS distribution centers send it to... Madison, WI. A *very* helpful local USPS manager stopped what he was doing, went into his office and emailed Madison, they located it, and got it going back in the right direction. Including showing up while I was out of town, and we managed to get them to hold it (instead of having a few hundred dollars in pens sitting on my porch). I got home, collected the package, and saw the wonderful booklet and greetings.

They are all good people. There are a lot of good people out there, and many of them are involved in pens.

[pengeezer]

This isn't even fun anymore. I miss the Greg talk.


Greg talk it is...

This one soon will go to Greg, one of just a handful of nib retippers on the planet.

Parker Duofold Senior. 1930-ish. Well preserved black-and-pearl color. Big Duofold nib that has lost it "iridium" tipping.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/parkerduofoldsenior_blackpearl_badnib950a.jpg

regards

-d

So are you keeping this one,or will it be up for sale?


John

[david i]

HI John,

I'm keeping that one until the if/when I manage to score one with even better color, which might be a bit. I have a couple of this sort in the pipeline though, a bit darker but still ok, for what will be well lower cost.

regards

david

[pengeezer]

HI John,

I'm keeping that one until the if/when I manage to score one with even better color, which might be a bit. I have a couple of this sort in the pipeline though, a bit darker but still ok, for what will be well lower cost.

regards

david




I figured as much. Any Chilton Long Island pens in the bunch you have to go thru?



John

[david i]

HI John,

I'm keeping that one until the if/when I manage to score one with even better color, which might be a bit. I have a couple of this sort in the pipeline though, a bit darker but still ok, for what will be well lower cost.

regards

david




I figured as much. Any Chilton Long Island pens in the bunch you have to go thru?



John

Yep. Very clean pen in black celluloid. That one can be available.

regards

david

[welch]

However, maybe "looking at it funny" was not the best way to go about things. He might have thought the OP was simply trying to cause trouble. In any case, it's best to be literal and clear when corresponding with a vendor about possible issues in the product.

This.

The one, true way you can come out smelling like roses in any kind of retail transaction dispute is put all emotion and drama aside, and speak in a calm and business-like manner. Especially in electronic communication, the need for leaving out any hint of irony, humor, sarcasm, etc is so important - unless the person knows you well, a phrase that would cause both of you to chuckle if you were eye-to-eye can easily be misconstrued. Be plain, speak facts, get stuff accomplished.


We used to say, "Electronic communication is a high-contrast medium", and our division of GE (Information Services) probably invented email and a few other things: time-sharing, global data networks, "networked based computing" -- now called "cloud computing". Our rule was to write in a neutral tone, especially since we were a global corporation.

Greg is among the very best nib-artisans. Example: I sent him a Parker 100 after I dropped it, nib down, on a hard floor. Greg examined it, and refused to repair it, saying, "The nib is too damaged. I can't fix it in a way that would make you happy". Anyone who turns down business has a high ethical standard. I have used Mike Masuyama, Tim Girdler, Greg, Pendleton Brown, and Richard Binder. They are all very good.

[kirchh]

...our division of GE (Information Services) probably invented email and a few other things: time-sharing, global data networks, "networked based computing" -- now called "cloud computing".

Not my understanding, though support for these claims is welcomed.

--Daniel
P.S. Still have the Parker 100?

[pengeezer]

HI John,

I'm keeping that one until the if/when I manage to score one with even better color, which might be a bit. I have a couple of this sort in the pipeline though, a bit darker but still ok, for what will be well lower cost.

regards

david




I figured as much. Any Chilton Long Island pens in the bunch you have to go thru?



John

Yep. Very clean pen in black celluloid. That one can be available.

regards

david



Saw your previous post here about a lot of things you have to do to play catch up. How long do you figure before you
can get to it(Will probably need time to pull $$$ together)?



John

[welch]

Daniel, yhes, I still have the Parker 100 with an 'S' shaped nib. Also have a replacement P100 that jumped out of my hand and onto a carpeted office floor. I am not meant to write with the 100: only conclusion.

On GE Information Services (GEIS): see the oral history from Warner Sinback in 2004: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/Sinback_Warner/Sinback_Warner_1.oral_history.2004.102658003.pdf

Warner was an "executive consultant", a permanent advisor to the GEIS division president when I started. Chris Brook write the data network, using a GE DPS 6 for what a Cisco router now does. Pete Lovell, Roger Dyer, and a few others wrote the email system: GE Cross-file, about 1970. Commercialized as Quick*Comm. I think Norm Harbvey and Roger worked on the commercialization of the Dartmouth Time Sharing Operating System (DTSS) toward what eventually because GE's Mark III. The trick was that two Dartmouth professors had written DTSS on the only hardware on campus: a GE 625 mainframe and a GE communications computer. GE commercialized the 635 as a combination of the 625 and the comms device; Kemeny and Kurts at Dartmouth got all the GE hardware they wanted.

[david i]

HI John,

I'm keeping that one until the if/when I manage to score one with even better color, which might be a bit. I have a couple of this sort in the pipeline though, a bit darker but still ok, for what will be well lower cost.

regards

david




I figured as much. Any Chilton Long Island pens in the bunch you have to go thru?



John

Yep. Very clean pen in black celluloid. That one can be available.

regards

david



Saw your previous post here about a lot of things you have to do to play catch up. How long do you figure before you
can get to it(Will probably need time to pull $$$ together)?



John

Potentially this week.

regards

d

[david i]

Saw your previous post here about a lot of things you have to do to play catch up. How long do you figure before you
can get to it(Will probably need time to pull $$$ together)?



John

Not sure this is quite on-topic to the overall thread, but since you asked... ;)

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/chilton_longisland_black950a.jpg

Might be a good one for the Black Pen Society.


-d

[Flounder]

Here's a link to the "Lounge (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/5-The-Lounge)".

Here's a link to "For Sale (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/8-For-Sale)".

This is the "Market Feedback" section.

[david i]

Here's a link to the "Lounge (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/5-The-Lounge)".

Here's a link to "For Sale (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/8-For-Sale)".

This is the "Market Feedback" section.


Here's a link to McDonalds.

http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/home.html

Hmmm....

[Chris Pen]

What does McDonalds have to do with anything?

Me thinks Aunt Sally has made a visit.

[david i]

What does McDonalds have to do with anything?

Me thinks Aunt Sally has made a visit.

McDonalds makes lard shakes, or so the story went.

regards

-d

[Jon Szanto]

I love the smell of thread drift in the morning.

Having said that, if people cared, they would actually say "well, this is getting too far off-topic, so I'll post this elsewhere". But, no.

[david i]

"Cared" offers many nuances.

And, perhaps off-topic to that claim about nuances-- or perhaps not-- I do tend to address what pops up where it pops up. People deserve responses. It shows... eep(!)... caring ;)

regards

-d

[Farmboy]

"Cared" offers many nuances.

And, perhaps off-topic to that claim about nuances-- or perhaps not-- I do tend to address what pops up where it pops up. People deserve responses. It shows... eep(!)... caring ;)

regards

-d

Must be the doctor in you.

[david i]

"Cared" offers many nuances.

And, perhaps off-topic to that claim about nuances-- or perhaps not-- I do tend to address what pops up where it pops up. People deserve responses. It shows... eep(!)... caring ;)

regards

-d

Must be the doctor in you.

Perhaps. I tend to try to keep the medical thing and the pen collecting thing a bit separate. The doctor-patient relationship requires a bit more graciousness than dealing with some of the... stuff... that goes on in pen collecting ;) Of course there also is the teaching thing. A fair bit of my medical time is spent doing clinical instruction with students and Residents.

regards

-d

[pengeezer]

My apologies for temporarily pulling the topic off-topic. David,can you PM me about the particulars on the Chilton?


John

[Farmboy]

Must be the doctor in you.

Perhaps. I tend to try to keep the medical thing and the pen collecting thing a bit separate. The doctor-patient relationship requires a bit more graciousness than dealing with some of the... stuff... that goes on in pen collecting ;) Of course there also is the teaching thing. A fair bit of my medical time is spent doing clinical instruction with students and Residents.

regards

-d
Good thing. I don't know if we could afford the co-pay...

T

[david i]

Must be the doctor in you.

Perhaps. I tend to try to keep the medical thing and the pen collecting thing a bit separate. The doctor-patient relationship requires a bit more graciousness than dealing with some of the... stuff... that goes on in pen collecting ;) Of course there also is the teaching thing. A fair bit of my medical time is spent doing clinical instruction with students and Residents.

regards

-d
Good thing. I don't know if we could afford the co-pay...

T

I'm inexpensive ;)

-d

[kirchh]

Daniel, yhes, I still have the Parker 100 with an 'S' shaped nib. Also have a replacement P100 that jumped out of my hand and onto a carpeted office floor. I am not meant to write with the 100: only conclusion.

On GE Information Services (GEIS): see the oral history from Warner Sinback in 2004: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/Sinback_Warner/Sinback_Warner_1.oral_history.2004.102658003.pdf

Warner was an "executive consultant", a permanent advisor to the GEIS division president when I started. Chris Brook write the data network, using a GE DPS 6 for what a Cisco router now does. Pete Lovell, Roger Dyer, and a few others wrote the email system: GE Cross-file, about 1970. Commercialized as Quick*Comm. I think Norm Harbvey and Roger worked on the commercialization of the Dartmouth Time Sharing Operating System (DTSS) toward what eventually because GE's Mark III. The trick was that two Dartmouth professors had written DTSS on the only hardware on campus: a GE 625 mainframe and a GE communications computer. GE commercialized the 635 as a combination of the 625 and the comms device; Kemeny and Kurts at Dartmouth got all the GE hardware they wanted.

But you'd said GEIS had probably invented email; all that says is that some folks there wrote *an* email system in about 1970, but by then, email was already in use in several widely-deployed systems for almost a decade.

I'd be happy to take a look at your specially-crafted "S" nib if you'd like.

--Daniel

[New York Scribbler]

Hi Guys. First post. I found this thread in a google search for Greg Minuskin. I was trying to figure out why he keeps blocking my email address every time I ask him a question... I first asked him a question about a repair. Here are the questions and responses copy/pasted:

$65.00 plus postage.


Greg Minuskin
greg@gregminuskin.com
www.gregminuskin.com


On Dec 22, 2014, at 7:55 AM, jay####@###### wrote:


Any rough guess as to what it would it would cost to get the Sheaffer white dot lifetime vacuum filler working, assuming it needs the typical internal gaskets etc?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Greg Minuskin" <greg@gregminuskin.com>
To: "jays###" <jays#########>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:22:01 AM
Subject: Re: possible refurb on a Sheaffer white dot lifetime pen I won on eBay



Thanks for your email!


All pens are sold on a first come, first served basis. Just keep checking my website www.gregminuskin.com and if you see something you like, let me know asap. I hope to make you a customer soon!


Sincerely,


Greg Minuskin
greg@gregminuskin.com
www.gregminuskin.com





<CatHaveANiceDay.gif>


On Dec 22, 2014, at 7:20 AM, jays######### wrote:


Hello Greg. I am a lifelong fountain pen enthusiast turned recent collector. I've only recently really been able to spare a little extra money to acquire some pens that are "nicer" than the Lamys and Chinese pens that make up most of my collection. I recently won an auction for a vintage Sheaffer white dot lifetime pen. I'm not used to winning any of the gold-nibbed vintage pens and was surprised that I won it. Specifically this pen http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sheaffer-White-Dot-Lifetime-Fountain-Pen-14k-Gold-Nib-/231420142935?ssPageName=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBSA%3AUS%3A1 120&nma=true&si=8WEHQOXESyIJIPzVycqjop8xNns%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I'm reasonably handy and have tinkered with pens nibs, but it looks like I'm in over my head on vacuum fillers. I was just curious if you work on these pens and if so what a rough estimate on cost would be to get a pen like this working. I'm assuming it's going to need work, but won't know until it arrives.

PS: I only found your site yesterday and think I will get pens from you instead of eBay from now on :D. You sell working pens at very reasonable prices, and I have just a little spare Christmas money left over..


Then he blocked my email address as I found out a few days later when I tried to buy a pen that he posted. So I logged in to my work email address and bought the pen. Sent emails back and forth until the eBay transaction was complete in less than 30 minutes. Received the pen, it's okay aside from the nib slipping around, whatever I still like the pen as my first "working" vintage pen with a gold nib. So tonight he posted a needle point "wet noodle" pen and I sent him a question from my work email as I know people's definition of "wet noodle" can vary. Copy/paste:

Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 6:22 PM
To: Jason #####



It is easy to flex, with lots of flow, no scale.




Greg Minuskin
greg@gregminuskin.com
www.gregminuskin.com


On Jan 5, 2015, at 3:21 PM, Jason Urton <jason@flemingleeshue.com> wrote:


Curious as to what your definition of a wet noodle is? Does that mean that it flexes very easily to 3 times it's un-flexed line length, ie from a F to BB?

Then I sent him an email to thank him for explaining his definition and.. Copy/Paste:

Undeliverable: RE: flex pen for sale
Microsoft Outlook

Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 7:08 PM
To: Jason #####


smtp11.gate.ord1a.rsapps.net rejected your message to the following e-mail addresses:

Greg Minuskin (greg@gregminuskin.com)


smtp11.gate.ord1a.rsapps.net gave this error:
<Jason########>: Sender address rejected: Blocked by this recipient


Your message wasn't delivered due to a permission or security issue. It may have been rejected by a moderator, the address may only accept e-mail from certain senders, or another restriction may be preventing delivery.

He blocked my work email too. I've already bought one of his pens and paid promptly (les than 30 minutes). Am I doing something wrong? I'm so confused! I'm just trying to expand my collection into vintage pen territory at what seemed like good prices, but I somehow managed to get myself blocked with 2 email addresses. Do I just make a google or Hotmail address the next time he posts something I want to buy? Sigh...

Jason
New York Scribbler

[mhosea]

Am I doing something wrong? I'm so confused! I'm just trying to expand my collection into vintage pen territory at what seemed like good prices, but I somehow managed to get myself blocked with 2 email addresses. Do I just make a google or Hotmail address the next time he posts something I want to buy?

You want my opinion? Don't fret about it. Don't try to figure it out. If you ask the girl to dance, and she says no, just bounce off. She wasn't the one. Keep your eyes peeled for Rick Krantz's sales. He used to post them here and may still, but my recollection is that he was struggling with the "Panjo" sales system that we started using here. You can also find his sales on www.fountainpenboard.com, which is a very collector-oriented board. If you need some help with repairing a Sheaffer vac filler, try Ron Zorn at www.mainstreetpens.com. If you want my opinion, that's who you should have been talking to in the first place for that sort of thing. Now if you need a nib retipped or nib crack repaired, then Greg would have been the guy to talk to. Again, this is my opinion.

[Cob]

Well, I have no experience with Mr Minuskin, but if you would like what I suppose I could describe as a more"communicative" service then there are plenty of other dealers.

If you are willing to buy from the UK you could do not better than deal with Deb at Goodwriter's Pens (http://www.goodwriterssales.com/) Addiitonally Deb runs an excellent and informative blog; you'll find the link on her pages. I and a number of fellow geeks have bought from her and have had absolutely first-class pens and first-class service.

Cob

[Rick Krantz]

Thanks for the nice comment. However, i'm not looking for any new customers... LOL... j/k

just look for my sale posts on the boards. I unfortunately tried to work with the Panjo system, to no success. I regrettably cannot get it to do what I want it to do, but once in a while, I will try to list. Your best luck if you want to see my wares is to just do a search for my name on any of the other sites. What I sell I try to typically price reasonable, and with very few exceptions, I offer a 1 year warranty on the stuff I sell, typically that it will successfully write and function properly for a year. If you find issue or even break it, i certainly will do my best to help you, and for the most part, even outside the 1 year time period.

As for Greg, I dunno, all of my interactions have been good with him, not sure I'm just hoping it was a miscommunication between you both, or some software glitch. Greg's a cool guy, and does expert work. I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think he does Sheaffer Vac fill repair. YOur repairers for these are Gerry Berg, or Mike and Linda Kennedy of Indy Pen Dance.

[New York Scribbler]

Thanks for the advice. I will check the venders/sites provided and hopefully have better luck with my repairs and purchases.

Jason
New York Scribbler

[david i]

Thanks Greg for aiming this truly rare post-war 1940s Sheaffer my way. Fewer than 10 known so far to the hobby, an esoteric variant. Condition just as nice as Greg described.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/sheaffer_1940s_solidgold_autograph_brown.jpg



regards

david

[Farmboy]

Am I allowed to say why it is rare?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Why does it say 2000 on the barrel?

[Jon Szanto]

Why does it say 2000 on the barrel?

I believe that is the original MSRP of $20.00.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Wouldn't have killed them to stick a dollar sign on it, or even a decimal point come to think of it.

You sure it's not a limited run number?

[Jon Szanto]

Wouldn't have killed them to stick a dollar sign on it, or even a decimal point come to think of it.

You sure it's not a limited run number?

I think if you do just the smallest amount of reading up on Sheaffer pens, from possibly the 1930s through the 1950s (the true experts can dial that in better than I), you'll see that most of the pens sported these numbers by the imprint. Why or how they chose to do it this way, I don't know, but this is my understanding. The number referred to the price.

[Farmboy]

Jon, you are to kind.

A leading $ engraved on the barrel would look stupid.

FarmBoy

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Okay, just thought I'd ask, it's sometimes easier than trying to find books on the subject in a backwater country. The downside is of course it is often accompanied by insult.

[mhosea]

Engraving the price, regardless of the format, was a weird thing to do. Perhaps it was less about helping retailers remember how much to charge than helping retailers remember how much they were supposed to charge, vis-a-vis Sheaffer's attempts to control retail pricing.