Flex nib FPs

[sparkinflint]

What pen would you consider a "true" flex? and why do you think that?

[pengeezer]

It's not the pen that's to be considered a "true" flex(in your words),it's the nib. A flexible nib can be found on almost
any vintage pen. I have seen various pens w/flex nibs and even have one in my stable that's so flexible as to be considered a wet noodle.



John

[tandaina]

Yup, not the pen at all. The nib is what makes something "true flex." And that can vary. I cannot tell you that a #2 Waterman nib from before 1950 will be "true flex." Some will be wet noodles, some will be full flex, some will be semi-flex, and some will be nails. The flexibility of a nib is an individual thing.

I can't even tell you: Waterman makes the most flexible, or 14k is the best flexible.

I have a steel (wartime) German nib that is a wet noodle. Matches my Waterman wet noodle (14k) 1910s era nib in all respects. (Ease of flex, springback, etc).

True flex is about how little pressure is needed to achieve tine spread. There are lots of articles out there, but the less pressure needed (in general) the most flexible the nib is considered. It's ability to bounce back to its unflexed state also figures in. But in general the more you have to PUSH a nib the less flexible it is rated. My wet noodles flex with just the weight of the pen. IE to keep them from flexing I have to keep the weight of the pen off the nib as I write, just letting the pen weigh against the nib (no pressure from me) gives flex. They require a trained hand to use properly and well!

[Cob]

Yup, not the pen at all. The nib is what makes something "true flex." And that can vary. I cannot tell you that a #2 Waterman nib from before 1950 will be "true flex." Some will be wet noodles, some will be full flex, some will be semi-flex, and some will be nails. The flexibility of a nib is an individual thing.

I can't even tell you: Waterman makes the most flexible, or 14k is the best flexible.

I have a steel (wartime) German nib that is a wet noodle. Matches my Waterman wet noodle (14k) 1910s era nib in all respects. (Ease of flex, springback, etc).

True flex is about how little pressure is needed to achieve tine spread. There are lots of articles out there, but the less pressure needed (in general) the most flexible the nib is considered. It's ability to bounce back to its unflexed state also figures in. But in general the more you have to PUSH a nib the less flexible it is rated. My wet noodles flex with just the weight of the pen. IE to keep them from flexing I have to keep the weight of the pen off the nib as I write, just letting the pen weigh against the nib (no pressure from me) gives flex. They require a trained hand to use properly and well!

That's a great summary of this famous topic!

I know what you mean regarding those very flexible nibs; I have two that are unusable in practical terms: one came on a Pitman's College pen (the other is on a miniature Unique pen): I would get it working nicely but just using some of its range for a few minutes was enough to make it necessary to bend it back again! My other Pitman's, a Fono, is not quite as bad and is usable but like other very flexible nibs I have tried, is a bit toothy - I have a Conklin No2 that is very similar, whilst on the other hand, the two very flexible Swans I have give no trouble. I would say that if one can find a flexible Ideal nib, then one is (in my opinion) pretty close to pen perfection! It is always a shock to find a nice old Ideal nib that is a nail - I have three or four of them in a plastic bag (and a spare No4 too that is very firm)!

Cob

[jar]

If you are asking to determine what to buy, my best advice is don't by brand, model or even most advertising. Instead buy the dealer, go to one of the folk that specialize in flex nib pens and communicate fully with them. Tell them what you want and how experienced you are, maybe send some samples back and forth between you and the seller.

[sparkinflint]

No, I'm just curious to see what people considered to be flex. Anyways most vintage flex nibs are probably out of my range

[ainterne]

No, I'm just curious to see what people considered to be flex. Anyways most vintage flex nibs are probably out of my range

It depends on what your range is?

What was previously said in the thread is very accurate,... My pennies worth is, the way a nib returns to normal after its been flexed (springy or not) is important if you want to write quickly and accurately.

What is also important is the width of the line the pen can produce. I have expensive pens that produce 1.4mm lines when writing... I have cheaper that can produce 2mm when writing.

e.g Here is a $35 dollar pen......great nib, not so nice pen..... it's a Wilson. I bought it because I saw the line it produced and though it could very well be put in a nicer pen to make a nice package.

That's over a 2.4mm line. But don't be fooled into thinking you could write a 2.4mm line with it and it be nice writing.


http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15056&stc=1

Dealers will show you nibs that can do the following, but as I pointed out to someone, they couldn't write like that...

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15057&stc=1

Then there is a nice pen, and nice nib that has a nice line thickness. You can tell its quite springy by the way the line changes from thick to thin and how quickly it does it in the picture.... Pictures of writing tell such a lot about a nib and what it can do.
Notice however that the down line on the L's are not smooth and the writer is struggling to keep the nib straight.... much like the X..... So it tells me that the tines are out of line on the nib and it's skirting down the page on one tine.
The right hand tine is to high because the writer puts pressure on that side. Sorry rambling.....

I wouldn't really call this super flex though.

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15058&stc=1


Anyway, what I am saying is that you don't have to pay a lot of money for a good nib that flexes well.... Only from a dealer... who will know a good nib when they see one and charge accordingly...... Even then, some dealers sell quite reasonably, so find a good one if you go that way. You can pay easily $300 for a pen that has a minimal flex that is just a really nice pen.

I have yet to figure it all out... I have pens that cost me $50 that I see dealers selling for $250..... I have pens I think are worth $250 that I have seen sell on Ebay for $150..... not as nice but still it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Either like me you buy a lot of pens and pick out the nice pens you like and get rid of the rest. I have bought pens that I think are going to be middle of the road and delighted when they arrive and vise versa.
.....or as someone said here, you have to try quite a few to get an idea of what you like....and that can't be emphasized enough.

You can buy a nice pen from Ebay for $100 and be pretty sure you are going to get a good pen and nib, if you use a good reputable seller. Don't expect the good ones to go for nothing very often. You can get the same pen for $40 from a person that just buys lots of different things at Estate sales and doesn't know what they are worth.... probably picked up the pen for $20 and wants to sell for $50. You have to look every day and watch very carefully.

Some of the dealers are quite obnoxious because they have a web site and some expensive pens. I have had a couple say right off the bat, unless you are going to spend $200 and pick out a pen straight away, get lost.... It nearly put me off getting into pens.....

I think there a some very experienced pen users on this web site (not dealers) that could offer you just as good advice and it would be impartial and accurate. They might even tell you to go to a specific dealer, but at least they would have some experience of the dealer.

I could suggest some if that's what you wanted but I don't go to dealers very often... I can tell you what's a good flex pen, but I don't have enough dealer experience to steer you in the right direction.

I pointed out to a dealer today they had a crack in the nib on their website that they didn't know about ...!!!?#@ At least that's what they said :-).

Good luck....

[AZBennett]

Lots of awesome summary on this thread!

User grade vintage "flex" does not have to cost a lot. The bigger issue is whether you are looking for full flex to wet noodle in your definition of "true" flex. As has been said flex is a combination of pressure required to flex the nib and what I would say is responsiveness, the pens ability to return to its unflexed form quickly.

I find full flex to wet noodles almost impossible to use mostly due to my speed of writing and my terrible penmanship. That being said, I have found several user grade vintage pens that are semi-flex that I enjoy writing with. The pen manufacturers vary from no name BCHR pens to Watermans Commandos and a lot of brands in between.

I recently picked up a few Wahl ringtops, three to be exact, all of them have nice flex capabilities. All they need are new sacs, they cost me about 15 USD a peice and once rhey have new sacs they will be good to go.

From a buyers perspective flex can be infuriating since the prices can be so large and without actually writing with them you don't kniw what yoy are getting. I always look for pens with writing samples but even that can be deceiving. This is why I no longer purchase pens based on nib performance. If I like a pen or think I can repair a pen and receive a decent return on my investment I will purchase the pen. There are too many unknown factors in purchasing just for flex. The only way to get around that is to pay the extra $ and purchase from a well known pen restorer that KNOWS what they are selling. I learned the hard way with the one "wet noodle" I purchased that wasn't even a full flex pen. That was also the reason I got intonpen repair because I bought a few beater pens that ended up having amazingly flexible nibs.

Best of luck on your quest to find flex. It cam be a bit frustrating but if you are intent on vintage flex you can find them out there for reasonable prices.

[gbryal]

If you want super flex, like, the nib flexes basically by blowing on it, you can get good deals on vintage dip pens. I have a couple that make my very flexy Waterman 94 look like a nail. Unfortunately you can't tell how flexible something is by looking at a picture of it on ebay. I know the topic says "FPs", but just for a comparison, the dip pens don't need to interact with a feed or have some of the other structural requirements of an FP nib, and can be awfully flexible.

[sparkinflint]

lets say if i was to buy a nib from ebay. how would i know what kind of pen it would fit? are there different sizes of nibs?

[AZBennett]

Yes there are different sizes of nibs. And nib sizing can be very difficult to track, or it is for me. I may be mistaken but there was no "standardization" of nib sizes across manufacturers. Although internally a Watermans 5 would be the same size from one pen to the other if I am not mistaken. One big thing I have noticed even among nibs of the same size from the same manufacturer is that over time, minute changes to the feed and section can cause a vintage nib to be almost unswappable into/onto a feed and section that shoukd be able to accept the nib. Ideally you would want to put the nib you purchase into a pen it was designed for. But I have l purchased Packards with Waterman nibs, a Moore with a no name nib and a Sheaffer with a Belmont nib. I myself have moved a Watermans nib into an unmarked BCHR eyedropper and it worked quite well. But you have to be careful as the curvature of the nib, feed and section might seem the same but might be off slightly and you can cause undue stress on the tines and damage to the nib, or at least I have.

[tandaina]

lets say if i was to buy a nib from ebay. how would i know what kind of pen it would fit? are there different sizes of nibs?

Matching a nib to a pen body and feed isn't trivial. And setting up a vintage flex nib really well isn't trivial either. You are much better buying a nib with pen. In the case of very rare nibs it can be worth it to buy a nib separately and have it set, but that isn't cheap.

For example, I wanted a vintage, full flex, music nib. They are rare, very rare. I'd have loved to have found one in its original body, but what I found was an orphan nib. So I bought it, and sent it to an expert who had *one* body it would work in. One, of the huge stock he had on hand. His services weren't cheap but it is set up to write properly and well and such a valuable nib isn't worth playing around with.

There really is no way to be sure what pen a nib will fit in until you have it in hand and start trying. Old nibs were not all made ot standard sizes, and neither were bodies. Not like modern #5 or #6 replaceable nib units.

[Cob]

Some good information here.

I have discovered various sizes of "No 2" nibs from Mabie Todd and worse still, a lot of variation in feed sizes; rather like AZBennett above, I have built a number of "Frankenpens"; in some cases it was easier to use an entire nib/feed/section assembly, though I have just done a Swan Leverless with a French Waterman's No2 nib; this is a success, but I had to rummage for a while before I found a suitable feed - I have about ten that are too small... Typical!

Cob