Coated Nibs - Bad Luck, My wrongdoing or do they just plain suck??

[Blindspot]

Hello, everybody - I have been a long time enthusiast of fountain pens, used them all the time for note taking in college and such – but only recently have I gotten to rekindle the flames of this hobby of mine, purchasing some new pens, doing some research online and experimenting with different kinds of inks, nibs and filling mechanisms.

I decided to post this thread because no one else can clarify this issue for me, and with such a numerous community, probably one or several of you already experienced this – it´s about coated nibs.

I don´t know if it´s a curse, statistical anomaly, if I´m doing something wrong or if they just plain suck and I found out the hard way – but almost all my pens with coated nibs, with the exception of Lamy black nibs (TWSBI 580 Rose Gold, Monteverde Invicia and Impressa) have lost their coating layer: they haven’t been damaged in any way shape or form and other than the aesthetical aspect, the nibs perform with no problems at all.

It just seems the nib has been stripped of its coating - like chipped paint on an old automobile.

These are my Monteverde pens (Impressa and Invicia) – I´ve stopped using them, not because of the stripped coat thing, just because I didn’t like how the nibs performed overall…



On the Invicia it´s barely noticeable, but it´s there - and chances are it will get worse:



And this, my friends - is the trainwreck.... My TWSBI 580 Rose Gold, wich I still use on a daily basis (and cry every time I use it) –





Knowing you guys will say this is probably related to the ink or cleaning procedures, allow me to provide some background information:

Inks used: Diamine almost exclusively (Midnight, Black Blue, Oxblood, Ancient Copper, Grape); J.Herbin Perle Noire, once I used Roher and Klinger Salix on the TWSBI.

Curious fact: although I´ve been told that using iron gall ink such as the Salix might have something to do with what happened, I´ve only used it once on the TWSBI and the coat started to strip after flushing out some Diamine ink.

Furthermore, I have a Lamy Safari and Nexx (with black nibs) almost permanently inked with Salix and Scabiosa and never had a glitch – in fact I´ve had more problems with flushing and cleaning other more saturated inks (Diamine Grape, for instance) that seem to leave traces for decades no matter how thoroughly one cleans the pen / converter.

Cleaning procedures – always the same procedure: clean cold water – flush the pens by filling the converter and emptying over and over, sometimes put the nib section briefly under a running faucet (cold water).
In the trickiest of situations I´ve used a diluted vinegar or ammonia (10%) to clean particularly difficult nibs/converters.

I don´t think I´m doing anything wrong here – both in the ink usage department as well as with the cleaning procedures – so what´s happening with these coated nibs ?
(As I’ve mentioned earlier, my black Lamy nibs haven’t got a scratch on them).

Bottom Line – what do you guys think happened here? Possible explanations for this? Has anyone here been through this type of scenario before?

And – What opinions do you guys have about coated nibs?

I´m frankly not impressed – although I do love the look some of these nibs have, I don’t think I would buy another one, especially from a much more expensive range than the ones I have, like a Visconti Back to Black or a Montegrappa Fortuna.

If I ever got to buy a pen in that price range and this happened to the nib, I think I´d turn to ballpoint pens permanently – and renounce the use of the nib for all eternity.

Thanks for any help / advice you guys have to offer or just plain thoughts on the whole “coated nibs” subject.

Cheers,

[jar]

Well you are looking at cheap, low end, entry level pens. I would not expect plating or coating or materials at that price point to last. Also the things you note are minor cosmetics and not related to function.

[tandaina]

Those are pretty cheap pens (in the grand scheme of things) and the problem is solely cosmetic. I can't say I'm surprised, honestly.

Plating is a way to fancy up an otherwise cheap nib, for well, cheap.

Once you get into the realm of gold nibs, I've never had an issue. I've got numerous 50 year old two tone gold nibs, no plating loss. You really do get what you pay for I'm afraid.

[Neo]

Have you tried contacting TWSBI or Monteverde for a replacement?

[Blindspot]

Ok - Thanks for the feedback so far.

Just to address some of the points raised here:

a) No, I haven´t contacted TWSBI or Monteverde – just because in my experience, brands usually chalk up to mishandling of the object anything that isn´t a clear fabrication flaw – plus there´s no real brick and mortar reseller or dealer where I´m living (Portugal), I´ve had to order pens and supplies from the UK (Andy´s pens, CultPens,Writing Desk, etc.) – and some of the folks I´ve talked to here (only brands like Caran d´Ache, Montblanc, etc are represented) told me they wouldn´t replace the pen/nib either, if it happened with their own house brands.

b) I am aware that this is a cosmetic issue – the functionality of the pens hasn’t been compromised. But it´s a bit like buying a car (whether it´s a Bentley or a Fiat cinquecento) and after the fourth time you wash it the paint starts to strip. It doesn´t really compromise the normal use of the car (getting from point A to point B), but I´m guessing no one would be happy if this happened…

And, at least for me, working with a micro-budget, it does raise the issue of future purchases – I had a Pilot Capless with black nib on my wish list and now I just don´t know if I´m willing to take the risk -

c) While plating might be an easy option to jazz up an otherwise inexpensive nib – there are some mid-range to high level pens that offer plated nibs – my question is: is this likely to happen in a Sailor Professional gear Imperial black, Omas Arte Italiana Noir, Visconti Back to Black, Montegrappa Fortuna, Caran d´Ache RNX 316, or even the black nib version of the Pilot Capless/ Vanishing Point, among others?

Some of these nibs are gold, some of them are steel – I don´t have much experience with gold nibs (and zero with black (or other colour) plated gold nibs), but out of 5 steel nibs (TWSBI, 2 Monteverdes, 2 Lamys) only the Lamy nibs remain unscathed…

Is this less likely to happen on gold nibs?



Thanks for your thoughts and info,

[jar]

Ok - Thanks for the feedback so far.

c) While plating might be an easy option to jazz up an otherwise inexpensive nib – there are some mid-range to high level pens that offer plated nibs – my question is: is this likely to happen in a Sailor Professional gear Imperial black, Omas Arte Italiana Noir, Visconti Back to Black, Montegrappa Fortuna, Caran d´Ache RNX 316, or even the black nib version of the Pilot Capless/ Vanishing Point, among others?

Some of these nibs are gold, some of them are steel – I don´t have much experience with gold nibs (and zero with black (or other colour) plated gold nibs), but out of 5 steel nibs (TWSBI, 2 Monteverdes, 2 Lamys) only the Lamy nibs remain unscathed…

Is this less likely to happen on gold nibs?



Thanks for your thoughts and info,

Well Lamy has been doing it longer than TWSBI or Monteverde and so likely has both more experience, a longer history and higher budge for product testing.

How will other plated nibs wear? It's too early to tell. When the Sailor Professional gear Imperial black, Omas Arte Italiana Noir, Visconti Back to Black, Montegrappa Fortuna, Caran d´Ache RNX 316, or even the black nib version of the Pilot Capless/ Vanishing Point have been out in the wild for a decade or two we will possibly have enough data to make reasonable responses but I would have far higher confidence with a product from Cd'A, Sailor or Pilot than one from OMAS, Visconti or even Montegrappa.

When new technologies or products come along the early adopters need to understand they are also going to be early product testers.

[bjai]

Hi there for the Rose gold one I suggest you contact TWSBI, they will probably send you a replacement. My nib was scratchy and they sent a new one free of charge.

[Laura N]

...

If I ever got to buy a pen in that price range and this happened to the nib, I think I´d turn to ballpoint pens permanently – and renounce the use of the nib for all eternity....

First, so sorry for these troubles; I'd be very frustrated, too. I think if you look at this thread, you'll see that the issue has been reported with that TWSBI pen before. But if you email the company they will send you a replacement, which you can keep if you ever decide to sell the pen.

You'll also see that there have been reports of a few expensive pens having problems with rose-gold plating. I think if that ever happened with an expensive pen like an Omas or a Montblanc, etc., you'd be able to rely on the company's excellent customer service. I'm sure you'd find that with Pilot, too, which has had problems reported with the finish on the body of the matte black Vanishing Point.

While I sympathize with you, I think abandoning fountain pens entirely seems like it might be an overreaction. Ballpoints and rollerballs have issues, too. These are all just consumer goods, manufactured to a price, and designed by humans. A certain number of products will have flaws, and some products are released without being properly tested.

I have had problems with cars, by the way. Of the top of my head, I can think of three people, including us, who ended up with absolute lemons from Audi, BMW and Volvo, respectively, that had to be replaced by the companies. I still buy cars, and so do they.

You know Lamy has good quality. I can attest that they have good service, too. It sounds like QC is very important to you -- and I feel the same way. So maybe you should vote with your wallet, as it were, and in the future stick with companies that are known to be extra-reliable or have great service. So, what do you do on a limited budget? You buy fewer but more expensive pens, maybe. You live without a $50 piston filler until you can afford a Pelikan, perhaps. Or you buy vintage pens like Sheaffers or Parkers or Pelikans that are known to be robust. Or maybe you buy from local stores, develop a relationship with them, and then rely on them to help you if a problem develops. Sorry that's such boring advice.

[tandaina]

Here's the thing. Plating has been around for a long time, and it is never forever. Never.

My wedding ring was once my Grandmother's. It is "white gold," which means it's gold plated with rhodium to make it pretty and silvery. That plating wears off. The speed at which it wears off has to do with how high quality the plating job was. But no matter what, it will *eventually* wear off and have to be replated. (My grandparents replated it at least once, and before our wedding my Mom got it replated for me. I imagine in 20 or so years it'll need another go.) The white gold plating process is pretty well established at this point, we know how to do it well and make it last, and even it doesn't last forever. Many of the plating, or coatings, we see on lower tier pens today are far less established processes, or use far less durable materials.

When buying a plated pen you just sort of have to know that you are taking a chance, especially with modern pens that haven't been around long. There just isn't a track record, and ink is nasty corrosive stuff, so those plating jobs have a lot to deal with. Obviously some plating holds up better than others. There are lots of 2 tone vintage nibs still in circulation, the rhodium plating on those gold nibs is in it for the long haul (probably because it isn't reactive with ink, and since nibs don't get rubbed the way jewelry does it lasts longer). But you will find formerly two tone nibs that are plain gold now, it happens.

I doubt people will stop buying white gold jewelry just because the plating eventually wears off. (Obviously, we're still doing it.) I agree that those nibs didn't last long. But TWSBI has a history of quality control problems (they make good on them, but still have a history). I don't know what companies use to "black" nibs but I suspect it is closer to paint than a true plating job, so it just won't last as long.

[sharmon202]

"These are my Monteverde pens (Impressa and Invicia) – I´ve stopped using them, not because of the stripped coat thing, just because I didn’t like how the nibs performed overall…"

Just wondering your thoughts and actions on these pens you quit using due to performance...

[gbryal]

Thanks for any help / advice you guys have to offer or just plain thoughts on the whole “coated nibs” subject.
,

I had heard of these problems with the nibs you mentioned and have avoided them for that very reason. I don't think your inks are to blame. These pens may be "low end" but at ~$70 they are not inexpensive and their good qualities shouldn't be temporary. For a $10 pen, sure, but as you approach $100, come on. As mentioned, TWSBI has good post-sale support and Philip Wang has personally taken care of anything I've asked about, and has sent me a replacement for a non-working nib. I don't know what their policy is on worn plating, but it's worth checking. As I've learned with my vintage pens, sometimes plating (especially on less expensive pens) can be very thin indeed, anything but a light touch can remove it. You don't mention polishing the nibs. An abrasive can remove the plating, but I think you should be able to expect more from these TWSBIs. Unfortunately from what I've read these particular nibs lose their plating quickly.

The black coating on the Monteverde seemed too good to be true to me. It doesn't look the same as the black nibs Lamy uses; there must be a different process. If you think about what a nib goes through, a coating doesn't seem like it's going to be very effective. I haven't had good luck with Yafa's support (no response), so I hope you have better luck.

[mmahany]

The issue has nothing to do with how you care for your pens, the inks you use, or your budget. The issue is your taste (I say that facetiously with a bit of hidden truth).

You seem to like steel plated nibs. Unfortunately, that's not a good thing to like (in this case).

-Nibs, in general, are very thin pieces of metal (no matter what type).
-Plating is an even thinner layer of metal.
-The plating process involves bonding them together (usually with heat)
-Steel (generally) is not a very porous metal. That's why people like stainless steel sinks....they're easy to clean.
-Steel is also not especially pliable

Considering all of those variables, you have an extremely difficult task in creating a finished product with much durability.

Long story short- stop buying plated nibs. You're setting yourself up for disappointment. The only exception would be older pens with plated nibs. Generally speaking, the plating thickness has decreased over time (with respect to cost).

My advice: avoid modern steel-plated nibs like the plague. There are plenty of cost-effective pens on the market with bare steel nibs that still look excellent and will write just as good.

[AndrewG]

The issue has nothing to do with how you care for your pens, the inks you use, or your budget. The issue is your taste (I say that facetiously with a bit of hidden truth).

You seem to like steel plated nibs. Unfortunately, that's not a good thing to like (in this case).

-Nibs, in general, are very thin pieces of metal (no matter what type).
-Plating is an even thinner layer of metal.
-The plating process involves bonding them together (usually with heat)
-Steel (generally) is not a very porous metal. That's why people like stainless steel sinks....they're easy to clean.
-Steel is also not especially pliable

Considering all of those variables, you have an extremely difficult task in creating a finished product with much durability.

Long story short- stop buying plated nibs. You're setting yourself up for disappointment. The only exception would be older pens with plated nibs. Generally speaking, the plating thickness has decreased over time (with respect to cost).

My advice: avoid modern steel-plated nibs like the plague. There are plenty of cost-effective pens on the market with bare steel nibs that still look excellent and will write just as good.

Your post raises an interesting question for me; being that steel is so prone to corrosion are there any manufacturers offering stainless nibs, or is there an inherent problem with using this material in a nib?

[mmahany]

Your post raises an interesting question for me; being that steel is so prone to corrosion are there any manufacturers offering stainless nibs, or is there an inherent problem with using this material in a nib?

Unless you’re talking about 100 year old pens, nearly every “steel” nib is, in fact, stainless steel. That information was sourced from several trusted sources including Richard Binder, one of the most respected professionals in the fountain pen world.

With that said, there are many different types of stainless steel. A company offering cost-effective fountain pens may be more inclined to use the cheaper grade rather than the most appropriate grade for its intended use.

Furthermore, companies offering coated/plated nibs may use cheaper grades “hoping” the plating doesn’t chip.

You brought up an excellent comparison with cars. If a car is painted and the prep work is not properly performed, the paint will eventually chip, flake, bubble or deteriorate. In addition, most paints aren’t able to keep rust at bay. It’s the primer that helps keep rust from forming. Primer also keeps the paint from chipping (along with a good adhesion promoter). Primer also can seal existing rust from spreading further in many cases.

Long story short: If you’re buying a brand new pen, there’s almost nothing to worry about with modern (stainless) steel nibs.

[Ted A]

I'm not sure about your nibs, but I had a Monteverde with a black section and the black paint/plating, whatever came off. I contacted Monteverde, they had me send them the pen and replaced the section in about 10 days. my only cost was postage to return the pen.

I think "...in my experience, brands usually chalk up to mishandling of the object ..." may not relate to pens. Both TWSBI and Yafa (Monteverde distributor in the US, at least) have been quite fair.

[welch]

Your post raises an interesting question for me; being that steel is so prone to corrosion are there any manufacturers offering stainless nibs, or is there an inherent problem with using this material in a nib?

I agree with MMAHANY: steel nibs will last a long time. In 1930, pen-makers used gold for high-quality pens because the inks tended to corrode steel. By 1950, steel nibs had become good enough that the typical Parker 51 Special or Esterbrook nib will have deteriorated only if users wrote on bricks or asphalt, dropped them point down, or pounded them with a hammer.

In fact, I'd suggest that users new to fountain pens start with an Estie or a Parker 45. Both pens can be had for $30 or less, and both have easy-to-replace nibs. Just unscrew the old one, screw in the new one. Esterbrook pens had glorious swirls of color, and the pen-bodies seem almost indestructible. In fact, people sometimes find their pen has an original Esterbrook sac. Parker made a variety of nibs for the 45, but the unusual nibs are hard to find...probably because people were less interested in oblique/italic etc nibs after 1960, when the Parker 45 was released.

People were less interested in fountain pens in general, and with a smaller market there was less reason to make unusual nibs. I don't think a US company made a truly flex nib after about 1945, or whenever US Waterman collapsed. People were in a hurry. Eversharp made soft nibs, but nothing as flexible as the Mabie Todds.

(OK...the Estie has a lever-filler, but plenty of sellers seem now to be restoring their Esterbrooks before putting them on Ebay. The great Parker 45 will use any Parker filler, new or old, and any Parker-format cartridge.)