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Thread: Hypocrisy

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by dannzeman View Post
    Let's get one thing clear, the Andersons are not mediating. They're clearly on Eric's side defending his action.
    We anxiously await your impending video explaining your side of the situation. You seemed confident it would be released soon.

    For those that are wondering why we are so-called "meddling" we are not meddling any more than anyone else. Eric has been a very good friend of ours for many years. When he took down the entire site, in order to figure out how to separate things, including the forum, we both (separately) strongly encouraged him to get the forums back up and running first. If that is meddling, my sincere apologies.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Anderson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dannzeman View Post
    Let's get one thing clear, the Andersons are not mediating. They're clearly on Eric's side defending his action.
    We anxiously await your impending video explaining your side of the situation. You seemed confident it would be released soon.

    For those that are wondering why we are so-called "meddling" we are not meddling any more than anyone else. Eric has been a very good friend of ours for many years. When he took down the entire site, in order to figure out how to separate things, including the forum, we both (separately) strongly encouraged him to get the forums back up and running first. If that is meddling, my sincere apologies.

    Brian

    Thank you you for your "meddling," I think I wore out the F5 button on my keyboard waiting for the forum to come back online.

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Anderson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dannzeman View Post
    Let's get one thing clear, the Andersons are not mediating. They're clearly on Eric's side defending his action.
    We anxiously await your impending video explaining your side of the situation. You seemed confident it would be released soon.

    For those that are wondering why we are so-called "meddling" we are not meddling any more than anyone else. Eric has been a very good friend of ours for many years. When he took down the entire site, in order to figure out how to separate things, including the forum, we both (separately) strongly encouraged him to get the forums back up and running first. If that is meddling, my sincere apologies.

    Brian
    Thank you for contacting Eric and encouraging him to bring the forum back. I do not know anything about what is behind all of this; I'm just glad I can contact my friends and forum family members again. I was very worried about that. I hope things get back to normal so we can be one community again.
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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Drow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    What Mike said. Above everything else, until and unless the details of what has happened in the last 24 hours, and a more clear telling of just how this site is being run, and by who, any comments made, especially attributing negatives to actions one cannot pinpoint, are... less than helpful.

    Yeah. I did major in Run-on Sentences in college.
    Fair comments. I guess I am just venting at having recently discovered the nib services on the site which I felt were inappropriate. I will be quiet until we know more
    Deal with it. Nobody is forcing you to read the ads or use the service. If it seems so horribly unethical to you, nothing prevents you from starting a site of your own
    Last edited by Dreck; March 6th, 2015 at 09:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    [QUOTE=Dreck;118856]
    Quote Originally Posted by Drow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    What Mike said. Above everything else, until and unless the details of what has happened in the last 24 hours, and a more clear telling of just how this site is being run, and by who, any comments made, especially attributing negatives to actions one cannot pinpoint, are... less than helpful.

    Yeah. I did major in Run-on Sentences in college.
    Fair comments. I guess I am just venting at having recently discovered the nib services on the site which I felt were inappropriate. I will be quiet until we know more
    Deal with it. Nobody is forcing you to read the ads or use the service. If it seems so horribly unethical to you, nothing prevents you from starting a site of your own[/

    The site is down. Feedback was asked for. I responded. Deal with it!

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Drow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Perhaps we can flush out some more information by promoting misinformation. I'll start. It is all but certain at this point that Dan and Eric have been involved in a disastrous love triangle.
    Not exactly. As I posted elsewhere, the FPGeeks forum was used to pass messages between the field operatives and the central office. Dan is not just a guy in a John Deere hat and Iowa t-shirt. Like wise, Eric was not hanging out South of the boarder deep sea fishing and working on his lovely tan. When the means by which the messages were passed was decoded there was no point in using the system because the other team was able to read the correspondence.

    I really can't say more or the team I'm on will put me on the bench.
    My issue is with the proposed ethical standards that have been posted and how they are inconsistent with someone -moderator or not - promoting an aspect of the site within high- level navigation from which he promotes his own products. If he wants to do that, then fine. Just don't parade some sort of ethical doctrine in the meantime that contradicts that approach. And no, I sm not an active poster but I am an interested reader.
    Which gives you an automatic right to parade your ethical standard on dannzeman?

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Given that he is a moderator of the site, "yes" and based on the ethical standards on which the site was originally conceived, "yes". We were asked to respond to the ethical standards. That's what I'm doing. If you don't want to expose yourself to feedback on your ethical standards then don't waste the time to create them in the first place:

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Drow View Post
    Given that he is a moderator of the site, .. Etc.
    But who the fuck are you?

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Really????

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Drow View Post
    Really????
    Yes, really. When people were holidaying and "reading" he was busy pumping these up https://www.google.com.au/search?q=s...ih=653#imgrc=_

    Again. Who are you, Sir?

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Being a member of this community is voluntary. We can accept how things work, with the nits, personalities, and even commercial interests, of the owners and members, or we can vote with our feet and go elsewhere. I have discovered that I have a much higher probability of meeting people here, who will accept my abrasive personality and become my friends, than any other place. I accept that I disagree on some points with every one, and that everyone will find some part of me disagreeable. However, one does not need to agree with another to like them. That would be as if I had to automatically dislike my neighbour for being a member of a different political party. Human beings, or at least the ones I know, are not shallow like this. I would like this community to survive. If anyone finds any part of how this place is run objectionable, there are alternative fora. If advertising and even selling are required to enable it to survive, I would accept that. Any of us should be able to recognize and ignore adverts and promotion. It would be nice if promotion was identified as such, but even if not, I feel that the members I have interacted with are intelligent enough to recognize it for what it is, and even call people out on it. I, like all people, put greater weight on the opinion of those I know and trust, as a result of interacting with them. There are "takers" in this world, who contribute nothing of themselves, but rather suck up what others have produced. It is difficult to have the same high regard for the opinions of such people, as it is for those we interact with frequently.

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Rex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drow View Post
    Given that he is a moderator of the site, .. Etc.
    But who the fuck are you?
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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    It seems pretty normal that people on pen sites would promote selling pens and pen services.
    JBBPensPaper an Etsy store

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by jbb View Post
    It seems pretty normal that people on pen sites would promote selling pens and pen services.
    This is true, but the context here is more complicated. We haven't heard Dan's story on what has transpired prior to the shutdown, but over the last few days, We've learned, I've learned, that the site was founded under some guiding principles that included that the site would not be selling pens and ink. There would be advertisements, but that the site would be operating as a publisher in this respect, not as a partner. It was envisioned that the site might sell things like the FPG lapel pins, coffee mugs, and whatnot, little things that promoted the site per se, and which incidentally, though this was not a stated advantage, would not put it in competition with its potential paying advertisers.

    What I did not know before was that Dan was a Pelikan dealer. Maybe he isn't. I have no direct knowledge of it. But I read that somewhere else, and it fits something. I saw his announcement that the new gray 805's were "in". I thought he might have organized a group buy or something. I didn't care. I'm thinking now that he might have been acting as a dealer. The promotion of his nib grinding services might have been OK as long as he was, in that respect, a paid advertiser. Even if he was acting as a Pelikan dealer and getting free advertising on both Pelikan sales and nib services, this is not unethical in a general way. It merely violates the site's ethical charter. But the plot thickens. If Dan unilaterally removed the provisions in the founding ethical standards of the site in order to make it possible for him to do exactly what he did without violating the ethical standards of the site, then this could be regarded as an abuse/usurpation of power. That is not an ethical action. There is some indication that Eric was angry about this, at least, so perhaps he regarded the revision as a betrayal of his trust. Clearly he regarded the commercialization of the site as a corruption of its intended purpose.

    Nevertheless, all of this should be mitigated by Dan's tireless service to the site, which in no small part has kept it alive and growing so that there is anything to talk about in the first place. IMHO, Eric made a tactical error, especially given the context of him "returning". Rather than doing a combination Second-Coming and Jesus-Cleansing-the-Temple act, if he if he felt that there was no coming back from this situation with Dan as the admin, the best way of handling it was quietly, offering Dan the opportunity to resign, allowing him to give whatever public reasons he wished. It isn't about the individuals involved, rather for the benefit of the community/company/etc. I think that would still be true even if there were a great deal more to the story, and there are hints that there is more.
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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jbb View Post
    It seems pretty normal that people on pen sites would promote selling pens and pen services.
    This is true, but the context here is more complicated. We haven't heard Dan's story on what has transpired prior to the shutdown, but over the last few days, We've learned, I've learned, that the site was founded under some guiding principles that included that the site would not be selling pens and ink. There would be advertisements, but that the site would be operating as a publisher in this respect, not as a partner. It was envisioned that the site might sell things like the FPG lapel pins, coffee mugs, and whatnot, little things that promoted the site per se, and which incidentally, though this was not a stated advantage, would not put it in competition with its potential paying advertisers.

    What I did not know before was that Dan was a Pelikan dealer. Maybe he isn't. I have no direct knowledge of it. But I read that somewhere else, and it fits something. I saw his announcement that the new gray 805's were "in". I thought he might have organized a group buy or something. I didn't care. I'm thinking now that he might have been acting as a dealer. The promotion of his nib grinding services might have been OK as long as he was, in that respect, a paid advertiser. Even if he was acting as a Pelikan dealer and getting free advertising on both Pelikan sales and nib services, this is not unethical in a general way. It merely violates the site's ethical charter. But the plot thickens. If Dan unilaterally removed the provisions in the founding ethical standards of the site in order to make it possible for him to do exactly what he did without violating the ethical standards of the site, then this could be regarded as an abuse/usurpation of power. That is not an ethical action. There is some indication that Eric was angry about this, at least, so perhaps he regarded the revision as a betrayal of his trust. Clearly he regarded the commercialization of the site as a corruption of its intended purpose.

    Nevertheless, all of this should be mitigated by Dan's tireless service to the site, which in no small part has kept it alive and growing so that there is anything to talk about in the first place. IMHO, Eric made a tactical error, especially given the context of him "returning". Rather than doing a combination Second-Coming and Jesus-Cleansing-the-Temple act, if he if he felt that there was no coming back from this situation with Dan as the admin, the best way of handling it was quietly, offering Dan the opportunity to resign, allowing him to give whatever public reasons he wished. It isn't about the individuals involved, rather for the benefit of the community/company/etc. I think that would still be true even if there were a great deal more to the story, and there are hints that there is more.
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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jbb View Post
    It seems pretty normal that people on pen sites would promote selling pens and pen services.
    This is true, but the context here is more complicated. We haven't heard Dan's story on what has transpired prior to the shutdown, but over the last few days, We've learned, I've learned, that the site was founded under some guiding principles that included that the site would not be selling pens and ink. There would be advertisements, but that the site would be operating as a publisher in this respect, not as a partner. It was envisioned that the site might sell things like the FPG lapel pins, coffee mugs, and whatnot, little things that promoted the site per se, and which incidentally, though this was not a stated advantage, would not put it in competition with its potential paying advertisers.

    What I did not know before was that Dan was a Pelikan dealer. Maybe he isn't. I have no direct knowledge of it. But I read that somewhere else, and it fits something. I saw his announcement that the new gray 805's were "in". I thought he might have organized a group buy or something. I didn't care. I'm thinking now that he might have been acting as a dealer. The promotion of his nib grinding services might have been OK as long as he was, in that respect, a paid advertiser. Even if he was acting as a Pelikan dealer and getting free advertising on both Pelikan sales and nib services, this is not unethical in a general way. It merely violates the site's ethical charter. But the plot thickens. If Dan unilaterally removed the provisions in the founding ethical standards of the site in order to make it possible for him to do exactly what he did without violating the ethical standards of the site, then this could be regarded as an abuse/usurpation of power. That is not an ethical action. There is some indication that Eric was angry about this, at least, so perhaps he regarded the revision as a betrayal of his trust. Clearly he regarded the commercialization of the site as a corruption of its intended purpose.

    Nevertheless, all of this should be mitigated by Dan's tireless service to the site, which in no small part has kept it alive and growing so that there is anything to talk about in the first place. IMHO, Eric made a tactical error, especially given the context of him "returning". Rather than doing a combination Second-Coming and Jesus-Cleansing-the-Temple act, if he if he felt that there was no coming back from this situation with Dan as the admin, the best way of handling it was quietly, offering Dan the opportunity to resign, allowing him to give whatever public reasons he wished. It isn't about the individuals involved, rather for the benefit of the community/company/etc. I think that would still be true even if there were a great deal more to the story, and there are hints that there is more.
    I agree with snedwos in ^this.

    I would just like to add one bit to the statement if I may without overstepping bounds. I got the impression from other posts on this site that Eric had moved on and was no longer participating in FPGeeks. If that impression is correct and that was how things were left then he really has no say in the direction that Dan went with the site. In fact I would say that if that was the case then the "jesus cleansing the temple" thing (which I totally agree with the phrasing you used) is completely out of bounds. You don't get to abdicate your controlling interest then dislike how things went and snatch it back and still be the returning savior. If you were that concerned in the first place abdicating your controlling interest shouldn't have happened.

    But again the standard disclaimer prevails. I am only going on the little I have seen, I don't know any involved personally, I'm just put off by the whole scenario and the more I think about it the more I'm coming down on the side of it was a fucked up way to handle a person who ran your site for years, if in fact you retained controlling interest in the site. Excuse the language but that's about the only way I can express what I'm thinking about it.

    I would also like to point out that the innuendoes thrown out by those involved are also not doing anything to incur favorable views from this direction. The blatant innuendo that struck me was that Eric is reachable and implying that Dan wasn't trying to reach him. If it wasn't intended to suggest this then it shouldn't have been stated as such. But again as I stated in a different post, I find a lot of irony that a pen business is one of the big players in a squabble over conflicts of interests with pen businesses.
    Last edited by Quantum Sailor; March 7th, 2015 at 02:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    I don't know Dan nor Eric, I haven't been here that long. But I know that when a big rift opens suddenly between two people who consider themselves a team, it's a no-man's land of emotional turmoil. It is very hard to navigate, to figure out what to do about it. In these situations, people very often make decisions that are baffling to people outside their heads and hearts. Think about the first time someone dumped you with no warning, for instance. Did you do nice, rational things in those hours right afterwards? I know I didn't. I hadn't a clue how to respond and did some pretty dumb things in a sad attempt to fix things and find some balance.

    Now of course whatever rift happened between Dan and Eric, it's not the same as getting dumped, but I'm sure it was still pretty emotional for them. Their sense of team had been damaged, after all. That's hard for anyone. So I'm not going to voice criticism over lack of judgement or behavioral decisions made in the wake of getting blindsided by conflict. I am sure that both Dan and Eric were doing the very best they could at the time. I have my own pile of stupid things done with great sincerity at the wrong time. It's part of being human, and these are the things that we, as friends, can simply let flow into the past.

    I applaud how many people here have shown restraint and respect over these past days. This kind of tolerance speaks to the maturity of this forum, and is a good indicator that FPGeeks isn't going to break apart and go away any time soon. I am very glad that I have found you guys.
    Last edited by elaineb; March 7th, 2015 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    I missed the event it seems. All I can say is Eric I like this site. Dan you have been a good steward of the site over the past couple of years. I truly hope you both resolve the issues and we can continue to enjoy all things about pens and ink .

    I don't mind some commercial aspects to the site. The quality of videos and reviews on the forum has been excellent since the podcasts stopped. I do like the after sale ads and have bought from a few people thanks to this forum. Finally, I don't mind Dan marketing his nib work. Eric I suspect you built and financed this site. Thank you also.
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    Default Re: Hypocrisy

    I don't have an issue with people who own/run sites such as this having some commercial focus, money is a fact of life. I have no issue with Wim over at FPN taking a clearly commercial approach to fund his forum and if he makes a few dollars well and good. The issue only becomes problematic (imo) if it becomes a prominent part of the site and starts to affect the non-commercial sections such as this forum, the effects are obvious on FPN where the commercial aspect makes it unappealing to a lot. I see no real commercialization of this forum, the moderation didn't reflect it and the sales section is small and far from prominent and seems to operate as intended. I disagree with the OP.

    At the end of the day any issues here simply reflect differences between Eric and Dan.

    Regards
    Hugh

  33. The Following User Says Thank You to HughC For This Useful Post:

    welch (March 9th, 2015)

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