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Thread: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

  1. #21
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    For Reprieve:

    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    You can do good deeds all your life and no one will remember.
    You make one mistake... and no one will forget.

    Cryptos

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  5. #23
    Senior Member chojo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    I've never been any good with politics I always seem to vote for the wrong guy, so when things start going wrong I usually run and hide in the nearest cupboard. But I know since joining this site I've learned, I've been helped, I think I've been ridiculed but I'm not clever enough to realise it. Above all I've noticed that as others have said we seem to get along pretty well most of the time, I can't remember seeing any members ever having a real problem with the way things are done, so for what it's worth if it ain't broke don't fix it. If the site owners or managers or whoever they are have personal issues, fine, pull your heads in and sort it out without making us suffer for it. I like it here I've made some very good friends, people who I can't imagine not having in my life and I really hope to meet some more people like that But I can't if there's no forum. So, that's my two cents, take it or leave it.
    We look forward to the time when the power of love will replace the love of power. Then will our world know the blessings of peace.

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  7. #24
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    For those that have not checked the main site, it now reads.......

    Pardon our Dust


    The FPGeeks website is undergoing renovations and will return shortly.


    In the meantime, the FPGeeks Forum is fun for the whole family. Drop in. Geek out.


    so there may be a resolution soon

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  9. #25
    Senior Member sharmon202's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    "...left FPN along with others of you who are here now. I left because of a lack of transparency concerning the changes, the commercialization of the site, and the bullying of moderators towards some very gentle users who I consider pen pals in the truest sense. And so, I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commercial site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far."

    Julie, could I ask for further clarity of the bolder font statement above? Not agreeing or disagreeing just wanting to really understand what you mean here. Also, I have only been here, officially, a bit over a year and do not know what level of transparency is possible or might be desired. Maybe some discussion on the specifics of this would be helpful to the community? What exactly would it be helpful, constructive, to see and be a more integral part of?

    Reprieve, just a thought regarding your totally justified feeling copied below. The forum came back rather quickly, I thought. That made me feel a bit better, still a bit nervous but somewhat relieved. Regardless of why it did, it did. There was communication going on, a good thing, again regardless. Getting the communication going was key, what was said in the heat of a thing maybe is not so important when we are able to get some perspective, whenever that may be. It indeed may have been errant keystroke's or made in haste and temper. Are we to trust in the future of the continued culture and stability of this forum? We cannot know now I guess. I am hoping Eric and Dan will take some time to think things through what they want to do and keep us all in their considerations and do the right thing for all, even if that is different for all. I have read the many ideas submitted and there is enough experience and will to sustain, I believe. I love the forum, barely looked at the blog (all other parts). I did look at Inkcyclopedia often.

    "I hope that the past couple of days are no indication of the future: the heavy handedness and quick temper that led to a sudden shut down of the forum, without any warning whatsoever, is a bad omen"
    Sandy
    We don't know what we don't know

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  11. #26
    Senior Member klpeabody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by reprieve View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jde View Post
    I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commerical site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far.
    Julie is a voice of reason and clarity once again.

    I do note, though, that there has been little to no transparency about how this site is now being run or even about who is in charge here. I don't care about the dirty laundry and the personal disputes--I don't mean that all of the drama should be made public--but rather that Eric, or whoever is now in charge, should make some statement about his intentions regarding the future of this forum, especially, and perhaps even the main site (which I do view, as I've said in other posts, and I realize I might be mistaken in my view, as completely separate entities). Why has Dan been stripped of his moderator status at this forum? Will he be reinstated, or has he been permanently exiled? Will Eric take over Dan's moderating duties, and, if so, will he allow us the same freedoms and will he be capable of exercising the same sort of self-restraint? Will he now be a reliable presence, or might he vanish into thin air once again? I hope that the past couple of days are no indication of the future: the heavy handedness and quick temper that led to a sudden shut down of the forum, without any warning whatsoever, is a bad omen. It has led me to lose trust in this place. I no longer see this forum as a haven but as a fickle friend. It may or may not be here tomorrow, and I--or any other member here--may or may not wake up one day to find that she is on the outside looking in.

    Repreive, you have accurately articulated the very thoughts that have been brewing in my mind since this issue surfaced. Thank you for taking the time to speak up, and for your transparency.

    Julie, once again, you are a breath of fresh air. I appreciate your remarks as well, and would like to note that I have enjoyed the very same qualities you've mentioned about this forum. I have appreciated it so much, that I've been willing to put my money where my mouth is and hit the donate button in order to support it.
    Beware of oblique conclusions.

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  13. #27
    Junior Member BK_Starkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    I think, for me at least, the fact that all of this happened over disagreements and anger, is kind of silly.
    While I agree with the commercialization issue (one of the reasons I have not visited in quite some time) every forum ends up with issues like this because someone, somewhere, feels that they have the only true opinion, idea, whatever. Someone's ego (and I don't know who and will not speculate on any of it) will always get in the way. It's sad really.
    I thank those that started this whole endeavour. When I first started visiting, I could find out all about new info and pens. Then, rather quickly, it seemed to become an expensive site. Meaning that that was the only topic of interest and, much like other forums of similar nature, if you were to say something to that effect, you could be put down and told to shut up (for lack of a better term). Fortunately the latter happened far less here, but the principle remains. Maybe I'm babbling, but that's my $.02.

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  15. #28
    Senior Member jde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by reprieve View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jde View Post
    I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commerical site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far.
    I do note, though, that there has been little to no transparency about how this site is now being run or even about who is in charge here.
    Yes! Thank you for that. I'm looking for it, too. Certainly, it was here once upon a time, long ago. And then something happened.

    But I still prefer to exercise trust and patience that more will be revealed to us. It's not easy, I know. Yet, there has been a stated willingness to have community involvement in the stakes of the forum.

    I've been taken aback in other threads by the outrage and virtual pitchforks being displayed. And so I find my trust in the community a little shaky as well. For me, it's not just the Eric/Dan thing, it's how we respond in kind that determines, at least for me, how "we" live on and if I want to be here myself.

    If we cannot take on the responsibility of the forum, then it may very likely die. I for one can contribute a few dollars now and then, but more than that may be difficult. I'm not a daily forum person, as many well know, but when I'm here I try to give something of what's been shared with me, or what I've experienced. As well as given small donations in what I can kinda afford.

    Each of us who cares has to ask, "Do I want my forum served up for me, or can I take a broader role in helping it live on?"

    I like the idea of nominating some folks to participate in the forum oversight, and I can think of at least four people I'd throw into the hat.

    Ultimately, we need this Eric fella to 'splain something to us, and open the door to our involvement. That'll either happen or it won't.

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  17. #29
    Senior Member jde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by sharmon202 View Post
    "...left FPN along with others of you who are here now. I left because of a lack of transparency concerning the changes, the commercialization of the site, and the bullying of moderators towards some very gentle users who I consider pen pals in the truest sense. And so, I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commercial site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far."

    Julie, could I ask for further clarity of the bolder font statement above? Not agreeing or disagreeing just wanting to really understand what you mean here. Also, I have only been here, officially, a bit over a year and do not know what level of transparency is possible or might be desired. Maybe some discussion on the specifics of this would be helpful to the community? What exactly would it be helpful, constructive, to see and be a more integral part of?
    Surely, sorry to be obtuse. "Commercialization" in the meaning that someone or group is profiting off their goods or services. There are many ways that can occur. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm just saying what my preference is. I heartily support user donations for the forum specifically rather than by pen companies or vendors. The front page/whateverwecallit is a different issue, in my mind, than the forum.

    The classifieds, historically, in many pen forums has been the place where pen geeks buy/sell/trade. Among us also are vendors, repairers, and the like. For example, we wouldn't see Stipula coming into our classifieds to sell us something. But Susana of Italia Giardiono might show up to tell us about her latest Stipula sale. (Talking about the forum here.)

    Re. transparency: What we've known about FPGeeks has come from the published "Statement of Ethics" which specifically stated... well, read it yourself in the attached PDF link (taken of the "FPGeeks Time Out"), specifically in the column on the left in red. The fact that the statement was changed without any notification as such, well, personally I find that questionable. But then I miss a lot so if someone could correct me if I'm wrong??

    When I ask for transparency it's about the governance of the site. Do I need the home address of the owners of the site? No. I just want to know how the site is run, and then I can make my own decisions about participation or no.

    FPGeeks has always had a policy of taking in advertising for the front page, alongside a policy of stating that the advertising shall not rule the front page reviews of pen merchandise. That was part of the "Statement of Ethics." A very high bar, IMHO, and one I applaud.

    What I'd like to know: how much does it cost to sustain the forum? Can there be a statement of ethics that governs the forum that may be different from the front page? Do we have enough among us to sustain the forum financially? I suspect so, but don't know without facts. What does it mean that the "forum belongs to the community?" On the surface, perhaps, it might mean we have to pay for it, and figure out how to oversee it? Or, is the consensus that we just want Dan back and let things go as they were?

    Money is necessary, clearly, to keep a site going. And I'm in that camp of "follow the money" and you learn who is in charge. If it's the advertisers, one individual, or a community of users, each form has its potential for both corruption and responsibility.

    What FPGeeks wants to do with its front page is up to them, IMHO. I'm concerned specifically about that page only in how it affects us here on the forum, however myopic that might seem to some.

    I'm sorry if this is rambling.

    Some of this discussion is moot until we know what, if anything, we will be allowed to contribute to.

    --Julie

    P.S. Re. the bullying by moderators (which I've never seen Dan do!): I'm against bullying by anyone. But I repeat myself endlessly.

    P.S.S. If anyone has trouble with the PDF link, pls talk to me via PM to sort it out.

    P.S.S.S. Of course just stating my opinions, ay?
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by jde; March 8th, 2015 at 02:08 PM. Reason: because I always edit

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  19. #30
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    My thanks go out to everyone who is participating in the threads pertaining to the FPGeeks Forum and its future. I have read every word of every post. I'd like to especially thank those who, even under great stress, are still capable of speaking rational thought in calm voices.

    First and foremost, let me clarify my motivation with regard to FPGeeks - both the website and the forum. My only vision has been and remains a sort of non-commercial virtual pen show environment where "pen people" can gather, chat, exchange information, share knowledge, hang out, learn, get ideas, and ultimately - bond and feel a sense of community. For anyone who has ever attended a pen show, you likely know what I mean. Sure, there's a large room of people buying and selling and trading (much like the classifieds section in this forum). But over at a table in the bar is a group of people passing around a bottle of ink and describing how it will change their lives forever. Perched upon a group of chairs in the lobby is an eclectic trio, each enthusiastically defending the virtues of his preferred nib width. Huddled around an ashtray outside is a group analyzing, in great detail, the design and characteristics of a new pen just announced by a favorite manufacturer. Fluffing their hair in front of the mirrors in a nearby restroom are Sue and Janet, talking about which particular tea seems to improve the beauty of their cursive writing. Pen shows... are amazing places.

    We come from enormously different backgrounds, hold amazingly disparate political, religious, and life views, sometimes we don't even share the same language - but we are brought together by a mutual love of all things fountain pens - and nothing else seems to matter. And let's face it, regardless of our differences, we somehow find a way to care for one another. That feeling of community, that sense of belonging, is what I would hope everyone could experience at FPGeeks.

    I should also clarify that I agree: The FPGeeks Website and the FPGeeks Forum are two separate entities. There are people, I'm sure, who would never dream of visiting a forum that regularly visit(ed) the FPGeeks Website. Judging by some forum posts, there are active users of the FPGeeks Forum who were oblivious to the presence of the FPGeeks Website util I so rudely and erroneously forced them to visit the site's home page.

    The much discussed FPGeeks Ethics Statement has always pertained solely to the FPGeeks Website. An umbrella-type code of ethics or standards for the FPGeeks Forum itself has never been put in writing. Perhaps it's time for that - you all can let me know.

    Never did I imagine that my statement, "The FPGeeks Forum belongs to the community," would be interpreted as "so the community should pay for it." That is absolutely not what I meant and I think my request that the donate button not be utilized should have made that clear. Since day one of FPGeeks and this forum, I have covered all associated costs without assistance and without complaint. From the opening paragraphs of this post you should gather that supporting this forum is something from which I receive great joy and satisfaction. That will not change.

    But while I might be paying the bills, little that they are, I do not feel any sort of outright "ownership" of the FPGeeks Forum. As previously stated, the FPGeeks Forum belongs to the community. The community should tell me what they'd like to do with the forum.

    For the moment, I see no need to change anything about the forum. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Yes, there's been a change in moderators with little to practically no information as to the whys and wherefores provided. For that lack of information I take full responsibility and you may continue to sharpen pitchforks at your leisure. It will not change the fact that I know I am doing the right thing. I have explained myself and my actions fully to my father, as he was as shocked as anyone to find the forum nonfunctional, and he concurs that my silence is mandatory.

    So let's move on. I am currently acting as the forum moderator. As such I have deleted each reported spam post and banned each spam-posting user. Aside from that, the only other change I have made was to remove the donate button. I believe it to be gone but if you find differently, please let me know.

    I've come across one post that asked, not to me but to another forum member, "Who the fuck are you?" I felt that question was rude in both tone and vocabulary, but as no other forum member seemed to take umbrage - at least publicly - I took no action.

    I've certainly come across posts that were, shall we say, blunt, directed at me. I have taken no action. Rumors of me having a heavy hand are based on nothing but assumption. I realize I opened myself up to backlash and I am standing here, on the carpet, taking it.

    With regard to spam, the posts are generally (or always) submitted by a new user as a first (and last) post. We could, I believe, change things so that every new user's first post is moderated. This, as with everything in life, has its pros and its cons.

    On the plus side, moderating every new user's first post would unquestionably reduce the amount of spam being posted.

    On the minus side, Maryanne.

    Maryanne lives in Oberlin, Kansas, and I've been in her shoes. It was not a pretty sight.

    Maryanne is in her fifties and has had a lifelong love of fountain pens. She has always felt an outcast for this peculiar interest. Then one day while surfing the interwebs she came across an unknown entity. Something called a forum filled with people who called themselves fountain pen geeks. Browsing through the chapters (she didn't know they were called threads), she began to realize that there were other fountain pen people in the world. When she realized that there were actually hundreds, perhaps thousands, of like minded individuals, she became giddy.

    She wanted to reach out. She wanted to introduce herself. She wanted to partake.

    She painstakingly figured out how to become a registered user. She jumped through the email verification hoop. She found a chapter where new users could make their debuts.

    She poured her heart out. She listed all her pens. She expressed her joy in having found a fountain pen community. She clicked "post."

    Then... nothing. She was moderated. Yes, her post was eventually approved and a happy future was ensured, but the initial barricade was heartbreaking.

    So, what do we want? Shall we continue to abide a small amount of spam so that the Maryanne's of the world can join the tribe more easily or have we had it up to the proverbial "here" with spam?

    I'm going to leave things as they are until and unless a majority of users convince me to make a change.

    For anyone who may not know exactly who this "Eric fella" is, I'm difficult to explain. But if it makes anyone feel any better, here are my contact details:

    Eric Schneider
    7902 Camino Cielo
    Highland, CA 92346

    email: eric@fpgeeks.com
    cell: 909-647-5056

    From the beautiful eighty degree sunshine of Southern California,
    I remain,
    yrs. truly,

    Eric

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  21. #31
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    If the Spam vs MaryAnne is up for a vote

    I vote for new member can post without mods needing to work hard as long as the Spam report function is working

    You may of noticed we sometimes are in the mood to poke fun at spam here
    Tom
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    Default Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    ...
    Last edited by lsmith42; March 12th, 2015 at 09:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbreeze View Post
    You may of noticed we sometimes are in the mood to poke fun at spam here
    I have noticed that. Seems almost like a separate hobby =)

    Wouldn't want to take that away from anybody.

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  27. #34
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by lsmith42 View Post
    In what way was the forum nonfunctional? It was perfectly functional until it wasn't.
    And you were completely understandably until you weren't.

    Ball. Your court.

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    Default Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    ...
    Last edited by lsmith42; March 12th, 2015 at 09:19 PM.

  29. #36
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by eriquito View Post
    The much discussed FPGeeks Ethics Statement has always pertained solely to the FPGeeks Website. An umbrella-type code of ethics or standards for the FPGeeks Forum itself has never been put in writing. Perhaps it's time for that - you all can let me know.
    I think stated rules should be kept at a minimum in all cases. I don't think there have been many instances of ethical misconduct here (except in occasions like this one, which have nothing to do with the purpose of the site), and in this way a 'set rule' only would stifle people's interest and reduce the feeling of open communication, something I believe you to understand well based from what you said about Maryanne.
    Last edited by fountainpenkid; March 8th, 2015 at 06:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    I think this may be my first or second post on the FPGeeks forum - I was a very frequent visitor to the main website [I think I consumed pretty much every podcast and video, and a fair few of the reviews!], but not so much these forum pages, until the closure of the former forced me over here to find out what was going on.

    I find this whole scenario deeply disappointing - not knowing what's going on behind the scenes, I can only hope that the 'players' are willing to find whatever degree of reconciliation and/or accommodation is possible. I also wish the original 'time-out' message had been a little less inflammatory - it may not have been intended that way, but it's how it came across to me. As uninformative as it is, I think the current splash screen does a better job of informing us that the site is down, without pointing fingers.

    Eric, I accept that you (and Dan, and any others involved) may not feel it's appropriate to disclose what's transpired out of our line of sight. I appreciate your partial explanation for the action you've taken. I've never met Dan, but had a few interactions with him via email (I was thinking about a custom ground nib, would you believe?), and found him very approachable - so it makes me sad that that (on the face of it) there's little likelihood the two of you can contribute together to the revitalising of the FPGeeks 'brand'. I would love to see the FPGeeks main site rebuilt, incorporating as much of the old as possible - and in such a way as to encourage a flesh 'flowering' of informative content. I don't know if it's going to be possible for such a vision to arise from the ashes of the old - but I guess time will tell.

    In answer to lsmith42's question, I don't think Eric has any issues with the forum - it was taken down inadvertently when the main site was switched off (collateral damage?), and reactivated as soon as he became aware of the problem. The forum was perfectly functional until it became nonfunctional (i.e. was switched off) - and is perfectly functional again now.

  32. #38
    Senior Member Laura N's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by eriquito View Post
    I've come across one post that asked, not to me but to another forum member, "Who the fuck are you?" I felt that question was rude in both tone and vocabulary, but as no other forum member seemed to take umbrage - at least publicly - I took no action.
    Thank you for your post.

    About this quoted part, can I stick my neck out and say that I think that's the sort of directness we're used to here. I mean, yes, blunt, and not language you'd use to your grandmother, but not calling names. And let's remember the context: that comment was in response to someone complaining about Dan, a person the community here is pretty fond of. I felt the original post starting the thread was rude, actually. If an OP dishes it out, he or she probably should expect to take it. So I'm glad you sat back on this one. I am glad you didn't censor (or moderate) either the original post or this response.

    If we're talking about the future of the forum, it hasn't historically been a place where moderators take action on posts on the grounds of rudeness. I think the members sort of self-police. It's more an arena or marketplace of competing ideas -- more Roman forum than nanny state. Now, some people no doubt feel more comfortable in a highly moderated environment. Possibly these days, you would. And it's to your credit you are being so open to challenging posts, just like Dan has been. But there's already a forum that's highly moderated. FPG has been filling a different niche, and I hope it stays there.

    I try to be careful with word choice when I type. But it doesn't bother me to read adult language here. To the contrary. Sometimes, as in that post you quoted, it makes my day.

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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    Eric, I am one of those who had been unaware of the main FP Geeks webpage. By all accounts there were good things there. Will this resource become once again available?

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    Senior Member jde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the FP Geeks Forum

    For those of us (me among them) who for one reason or another can't get to pen shows, a friendly forum is the best we got.

    Thank you for reading through all the posts. (I couldn't.) And thanks for clarifying the future of the forum.

    I am bouyed by your post. I hope others are as well.

    —Julie

    Quote Originally Posted by eriquito View Post
    So, what do we want? Shall we continue to abide a small amount of spam so that the Maryanne's of the world can join the tribe more easily or have we had it up to the proverbial "here" with spam?
    I've never been put off by a forum that moderated my first post. But making fun of spammers is not my hobby.

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