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Thread: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

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    Default Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    I'm fairly new to the hobby (4 months) and have learned a few things about nib adjustments by using a couple of cheap Chinese pens. I have replaced nibs a few times on Jinhao pens and have pulled nibs/feeds for cleaning a few times. The first time a nib/feed is pulled from the section it is usually pretty hard to pull it out. But the second or third time, it's noticeably easier.

    Here's my question: Is there a generally accepted limit to how many times a nib/feed may be pulled from a pen? I'm guessing that at some point there could be enough wear on the parts that a leak could develop and/or the nib/feed just may not be held securely within the section.

    Any comments will be appreciated.

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    Senior Member gbryal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    That's a good question for the repair people I guess. I suppose there is always the possibility with friction fitted parts. On one hand, that part of the pen is presumably designed for the stress of having a feed/nib packed into it, but on the other, not to have it pulled out and jammed in repeatedly. A lot depends on the materials; I imagine ebonite feeds and sections probably can take a lot of that, and can be heated to sort of bounce back, but certain kinds of plastic will wear more easily than others.

    It's kind of a hypothetical, right? If you are doing 20 nib changes on one pen in a year, maybe you need more pens to hold all those cool nibs...

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    The answer is: 42

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    I don't know about any hard and fast numerical limit. However, I have observed over the years the same thing you mention: that pulling a friction-fit nib and feed results in those parts loosening. I just wouldn't pull a friction-fit nib and feed for routine cleaning. There is no need, really, in normal circumstances. A pen can be cleaned by flushing. If I keep using the same ink, and I haven't let the ink dry out, I don't even clean a pen before refilling.

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    From an engineering standpoint, you get the largest reduction in friction the first time you remove and re-insert. The next time, it gets a little looser, but not as much as so. Third time, a little less. Eventually, this kind of wear in a friction fit will remove enough material to make things loose, but even then you can simply add material, not necessarily glue, to restore the fit. There are viscous fillers designed for the job, although I can't think of one off the top of my head. It wouldn't take much filler for most pens, and while I can't say how many remove/install cycles a pen might tolerate, I have pens 100+ years old that are still fine. Today's materials may be a different story, of course.

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    The thing is: with proper pen hygiene keeping the system of the pen clean, and with a good setting of the adjustment of nib (and feed), you shouldn't have to remove them at all after your initial setup. I have pens that have gone for years never having been touched. I have vintage pens that may never have had the nibs and/or feeds popped. This is an anomaly of modern pens, pen forums, and the cult of tinkering.

    If you buy a pen that doesn't work right from the start, do what you need to do to get it writing, and then leave it alone. It shouldn't need any further pulling.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    My position, in a nutshell, is only remove a nib when you need to remove it, and then don't worry. Where you get into trouble is removing nibs when they don't need to be removed. Regular, periodic cleaning is a great example of a non-need-based reason to remove a friction-fit nib.
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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    My position, in a nutshell, is only remove a nib when you need to remove it, and then don't worry. Where you get into trouble is removing nibs when they don't need to be removed. Regular, periodic cleaning is a great example of a non-need-based reason to remove a friction-fit nib.
    I understand, especially with more expensive pens. I've been playing around with pens that are $5 or less, some less that $1.00 with free shipping from China, trying to learn a bit about "tuning" a pen for better performance. And to swap a nib you've got to pull the nib and feed out of the pen. I'm pretty sure once or twice is no problem, but how about ten times?

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    10 times should be fine for a Jinhao.

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillPorter View Post
    I'm pretty sure once or twice is no problem, but how about ten times?
    Like I said, if, because you are in a learning and experimentation mode, you need to remove a nib ten times, remove it ten times. I don't expect it to get that loose. If it's a $5 pen, then who cares? With steel nibs and plastic feed collars, it might get a little looser over time, but the effect isn't usually that severe. ... I just took a cheap pen out and removed and replaced its nib 10 times. It had been removed once or twice before. Nothing bad happened. Still seems pretty snug.

    It's much more important with vintage pens, actually, whether or not they are "expensive". With vintage gold nibs, each removal risks cracking the nib.
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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    It's much more important with vintage pens, actually, whether or not they are "expensive". With vintage gold nibs, each removal risks cracking the nib.
    Yes. Or cracking the feed or section.

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    I know some people remove nib and feed all the time. But unless there is a significant issue I do not remove the nib or feed, even when restoring a vintage pen. Best to leave well enough alone unless there is a reason not too. That's just me. Most of my pens have never had nib or feed messed with while in my possession.
    ---
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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    I'm with those who aren't fond of removing the feed & nib every time I clean my pens, but I find when cleaning a pen even after a short soaking and/or running a few bulbfuls of cool water through a nib & section, there still seems to be ink caked on the backside of the nib. When the water runs clear, I'll hole a paper towel to the tip or the breather hole ink will bleed out. I feel like I should be letting the nibs soak overnight?

    Pax,
    John

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    My impression is that many modern pens tend to be more obviously modular than vintage pens. I have few qualms switching out #6 nibs or feeds, because it is about the highest level of tweaking I can manage with any grace. I learned a while ago that I am not meant to do that with vintage pens, but I do worry less about modern ones, or that is, modern ones with obviously modular parts.
    But other people here are more sensible than I am, and if I ever make a dumb mistake, I run off to the Fountain Pen Shop and beg for help.
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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    Quote Originally Posted by JFB View Post
    I'm with those who aren't fond of removing the feed & nib every time I clean my pens, but I find when cleaning a pen even after a short soaking and/or running a few bulbfuls of cool water through a nib & section, there still seems to be ink caked on the backside of the nib. When the water runs clear, I'll hole a paper towel to the tip or the breather hole ink will bleed out. I feel like I should be letting the nibs soak overnight?

    Pax,
    John
    You can leave them to soak in water, or pen flush overnight, but the liquid level that is safe to use depends on the pen. For example, a Lamy Al-Star, Nexx or Safari, as well as several modern Parkers and Watermans can safely have liquid around the grip section, while most vintage pens can't. Generally speaking, if your pens are fairly modern and have plastic sections then you should be safe to leave them to soak overnight.

    I also tend to not soak sections overnight when they have gold plated bands next to the nib.

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    I guess the world of fountain pen users is split between soakers and non-soakers. The only time I ever soak pen parts is when restoring a vintage pen that has had dried ink caked in it for several decades, and then only when the material is safe for that. I've never seen a non-restoration cleaning situation where I was remotely tempted to soak anything. Either I flush alone or I use an inexpensive ultrasonic (often with the pen suspended over it and only the nib and feed + 1mm of grip section in the water) for a few minutes in a water with a half eyedropper's worth of Kodak Photo Flo in it. There's flushing before and after that. It's all done in 10 minutes or less. If the nib unit unscrews from a piston filler, I'll unscrew it and flush the ink reservoir with ordinary water in a large syringe because that's a lot faster and easier. I also partially fill it with water, hold my thumb over the hole where the nib unit screws in, and shake it like a big converter. I'd need a reason to pull the nib off the feed, and I rarely have one.
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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    There is no good reason to pull a nib and feed unless there are absolutely no other options.

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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    You can leave them to soak in water, or pen flush overnight, but the liquid level that is safe to use depends on the pen. For example, a Lamy Al-Star, Nexx or Safari, as well as several modern Parkers and Watermans can safely have liquid around the grip section, while most vintage pens can't. Generally speaking, if your pens are fairly modern and have plastic sections then you should be safe to leave them to soak overnight.

    I also tend to not soak sections overnight when they have gold plated bands next to the nib.
    Yes thanks-I should have been more specific; The pens I'm talking about are mostly modern Chinese friction fit pens, but also some "plastic age" pens. With something like an Estie I would unscrew & soak only the nib unit. Bakelite should be able to stand a soaking if it isn't cracked? But for the most part I'd stand an older pen up in a small amount of water covering the nib and feed only.

    I find the little plastic scoops that come with my laundry soap work great for cleaning my pens.

    I used an old bottle of Waterman ink from probably the later 80's-when I got my first Waterman and I think it's caused me a lot of my pen troubles.

    Pax,
    John


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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    The problem is lack of replacement parts.
    With a vintage pen, if you crack the nib, feed, or section while knocking the nib out, you cannot get a replacement from the factory. The factory is long gone.
    So even with restorations, I would not knock out the nib, as the downside risk is too great.
    USC and soaking is as far as I will go. Sometimes a pen will need a LOT of cleaning to get the old ink out.
    The only times I knock out the nib is to replace/repair a damaged nib, or if the feed is HARD CLOGGED after a week or more of cleaning and soaking.

    John,
    Old ink is not a problem, as long as it does not have stuff growing in it or has started to develop hard particles.
    And as long as you did not let the ink dry out in the pen.
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    Default Re: Removing Nib/feed - How Many Times Is Too Many Times?

    Quote Originally Posted by JFB View Post
    Bakelite should be able to stand a soaking if it isn't cracked?
    Bakelite?
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