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Thread: The US 2nd Amendment.....

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by bamapendude View Post
    No disrespect to original poster but he has no skin in the game....
    Quite right, I have no skin in the game. It wouldn't bother me if you collectively banned every private gun in the US or if gun related death in the US went up by an order of magnitude.

    I kicked the tread off because I couldn't get my head around why, post a mass shooting, the left talks up gun reform, but then almost never talks about repealing the 2nd.

    Given that this thread has been active for around 8 months plenty of other people have been interested enough to exchange views to the point that I now have a better understanding of the body politics' view on the gun issue. As a bonus, I also have a better understanding of how your constitutional amendment process works.

    I guess, and no disrespect intended here, I was interested in US gun violence kind of like the way David Attenborough is interested in the natural world. It's just too fascinating to look away.

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    Senior Member pengeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pengeezer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    American people influence domestic policy by who they vote for, domestic policies influence foreign policies and US foreign policies affect the entire world so, to a degree, we all have a bit of "skin in the game". The shock waves Trump has sent around the world in what is a purely domestic campaign at present proves this. While the US is the world's leading power I think we all want to see good policy choices at all levels, the issue is what "good" is. On that you have to ask the question : Does a domestic pro gun policy/culture make the US more inclined to military intervention ?
    C'mon Hugh, that's some seriously tortured logic and willful ignoring of history.

    But no, I see no evidence that domestic "pro-gun" policy/culture makes the US more inclined to military intervention. Feel free to provide such.


    I was always under the impression that our gov't./military didn't intervene unless they wanted something....



    John
    It has become that way. We usually only act when it's in our national interest, and has nothing to do with a domestic gun policy/culture. But each war was fought for different reasons. The Spanish American war was whipped up by Hearst and "Yellow Journalism". The "Banana Wars" were on behalf of the United Fruit Company. America favored neutrality in the case of WWI and WWII - the opposite of Hugh's argument - but was forced into it in both cases. The Cold War that followed is its own story.


    I would personally disagree with our entrance into WW2 via Pearl Harbor(from what I've read FDR intended and
    intentionally let the Japanese attack PH),but technically you could consider that forcing us into WW2.
    In the case of the Spanish-American war,neither country wanted the Phillipine natives to have their
    own independence,so they fought a "fake" war over it,though many died in the process.



    John

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    I would personally disagree with our entrance into WW2 via Pearl Harbor(from what I've read FDR intended and
    intentionally let the Japanese attack PH),but technically you could consider that forcing us into WW2.
    In the case of the Spanish-American war,neither country wanted the Phillipine natives to have their
    own independence,so they fought a "fake" war over it,though many died in the process.
    John
    PH was a bit more subtle than that. Apparently PH was never meant to be a surprise/sneak attack. The Japanese government fully intended to let the US know about a declaration of war against the US before the attack on PH (granted, only something like a couple of hours beforehand, but still prior to the attack), but there was some screw up in the messaging between the Tokyo government, the Japanese embassy in Washington, and the US government, such that the message never arrived until after the attack.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    You guys have been reading too many internet conspiracies.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You guys have been reading too many internet conspiracies.

    Not so. In 2000,a retired US naval officer,Robert Stinnett,wrote a book showing that there was an 8-point plan
    to lure the Japanese into attacking PH(the book was archived,of course). Prior to that,John Toland wrote a
    book,Pearl Harbor: Aftermath,explaining the lengths to which the truth about the attack was taken,even to
    the destroying of two commanding officers reputations--Adm. Kimmel and Gen. Short--to cover up the de-
    bacle. Toland even points out that during WW2,even to speak about what might have happened about PH
    was a quick end to any advancement to one's military career.


    The Stinnett book is entitled Day of Deceit: The truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor.



    John
    Last edited by pengeezer; June 1st, 2016 at 05:35 AM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    If you're interested in military history, one of the best resources is the DOD itself.

    Here are some links:

    http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/
    http://usacac.army.mil/organizations...l/publications
    http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/MilitaryReview/


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Conrad Crane, Research Professor of Military Strategy, US Army War College

    Americans have always been fascinated by conspiracy theories. At the top of our pantheon of paranoia are the myriad hypotheses surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Close behind are the continuing arguments that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt deliberately provoked and allowed the destruction of the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, in order to galvanize a reluctant American public into supporting national participation in World War II. This lingering suspicion is partly responsible for the recent drive to exonerate the commanders at Pearl Harbor, Admiral Husband Kimmel and Lieutenant General Walter Short, for their responsibility in the disaster on 7 December 1941.

    The latest book expounding this well-worn theory is Robert B. Stinnett's Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor. The author is a World War II Navy veteran who became a photographer and journalist for the Oakland Tribune. He has done some admirable and dogged primary research, filing innumerable requests under the Freedom of Information Act and spending many long hours searching in archives, and he demonstrates a journalist's knack for presenting a sensational story. The end result is an apparently damning indictment of FDR and his Cabinet, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, many naval officers above and below Admiral Kimmel, and the military intelligence community. Unfortunately the author failed to do much basic secondary historical research and has a tendency to leap to conclusions based on questionable or erroneous interpretations of evidence. This is a dangerous book that will dupe unsuspecting readers who misinterpret the author's earnestness and technical explanations as signs of balance and accuracy, and it will perpetuate myths that should have long been forgotten.

    At the core of Stinnett's case is a memorandum written by Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Naval Intelligence, in October 1940. Stinnett interprets it as outlining eight actions designed to provoke Japan into war, and while he cannot prove FDR ever saw the document, Stinnett accepts it as the blueprint for the American actions in the Pacific leading to Pearl Harbor. Once he allegedly decided to sacrifice the Pacific Fleet, FDR carefully placed fellow conspirators in key positions, such as when he sent the Director of Naval Intelligence, Rear Admiral Walter Anderson, to command the fleet battleships. Stinnett continues to weave his web of conspiracy by arguing that for decades naval and intelligence organizations have covered up the fact that key information from radio intercepts and code-breaking revealing exact Japanese intentions was withheld from Kimmel and Short to ensure their unpreparedness.

    Stinnett does provide some provocative new information about the interception of radio transmissions from Japanese ships and has uncovered a number of misstatements by witnesses in the many official hearings that have been conducted to investigate the disaster. However, this is not enough to prove the existence of a conspiracy so widespread that it included eminent senior leaders like George Marshall and Ernest King of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, distinguished intelligence officers like Edwin Layton and Joseph Rochefort, and a myriad of other naval officers including Commander Vincent Murphy, who just happened to be fleet duty officer at Pearl Harbor on the morning of the Japanese attack. Many of Stinnett's arguments are based on hindsight; for him any mistake or oversight that contributed to the surprise attack becomes part of the plot that victimized Kimmel and Short.

    A look at the McCollum memorandum in Appendix A of the book reveals more flaws in Stinnett's analysis. The author admits that he can link FDR's actions to only six of the eight items on the list, and fails to explain that those that were actually executed occurred because of Japanese provocations or from understandable diplomatic or military motivations. Stinnett would have benefited greatly from secondary research in the standard works on FDR's foreign policy. Moreover, the McCollum proposal itself was designed to prevent war, not provoke it. A close reading shows that its recommendations were supposed to deter and contain Japan, while better preparing the United States for a future conflict in the Pacific. There is an offhand remark that an overt Japanese act of war would make it easier to garner public support for actions against Japan, but the document's intent was not to ensure that event happened.

    Stinnett's technical explanations of the intricacies and revelations from code-breaking appear persuasive to those of us unfamiliar with the field, but he has not fooled the experts. Edward Drea, one of the most notable authorities on codes and code-breaking in the Pacific, recently savaged this book in the April 2000 Journal of Military History. In a detailed critique, Drea points out that Stinnett misrepresented messages decoded in 1945 as being available in 1941, erroneously assumed that just because a message was intercepted it could be and was deciphered, erred in his explanation about when the Americans broke key Japanese codes, and misquoted or distorted many messages.

    Historians should be judges and not lawyers. When the public picks up a history book, they expect thorough research, truthfulness, and a balanced assessment of the facts. That is why so many readers can be misled or fooled by flawed works like Day of Deceit. Ultimately books like this threaten the integrity of the whole historical profession, as well as the credibility of the journals and reviewers who have praised it. They should know better. Since he was also a newspaper reporter, Stinnett's many inaccuracies don't do much for the reputation of that profession, either. This is a bad book that is best ignored, but because of American fascination with the theory it propounds, it will end up getting much more attention than it deserves.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    [QUOTE=dneal;171026]
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You guys have been reading too many internet conspiracies.
    To be honest, I never believed that FDR had some conspiracy to goad the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor and trashing our fleet there. That's solidly in tin-foil-hat territory for me.

    Anyway, I did a bit more quick research on the whole "Japan meant to declare war before Pearl Harbor, but screwed up in notifying the US" thing... and well, it turns out even the Japanese were kinda fuzzy about it:

    http://faculty.virginia.edu/setear/s.../japanwc/2.htm

    The message that was late was not a formal declaration of war, but some in the Japanese government thought it was enough "fair warning" before the actual attack. They also felt giving some sort of warning (even if it was only 30 minutes before the attack was supposed to commence) was the honorable (and required under the terms of international law) thing to do, and honor is a big deal in Japanese culture going back to ancient times.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    [QUOTE=Dragonmaster Lou;172391]
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You guys have been reading too many internet conspiracies.
    Anyway, I did a bit more quick research on the whole "Japan meant to declare war before Pearl Harbor, but screwed up in notifying the US"
    For what ever it's worth I've always taken the view that if the choice is between, a deep seeded conspiracy or a screw up, it's more likely to be the screw up.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    For what ever it's worth I've always taken the view that if the choice is between, a deep seeded conspiracy or a screw up, it's more likely to be the screw up.
    Same here. It's a corollary to the old "Never attributed to malice what can be attributed to stupidity" saying.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Erm, warning, stupid question inbound!

    Could someone who has a more than passing acquaintance with the US Constitution please explain to me what the word "regulated" means in respect of the 2nd Amendment?

    Many thanks.



    ps: I just noticed - being somewhat dim - that the Declaration of Independence is based on an unproven assumption that cannot actually be proved. Wonder how that slipped through.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; June 13th, 2016 at 03:48 AM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Erm, warning, stupid question inbound!

    Could someone who has a more than passing acquaintance with the US Constitution please explain to me what the word "regulated" means in respect of the 2nd Amendment?

    Many thanks.



    ps: I just noticed - being somewhat dim - that the Declaration of Independence is based on an unproven and assumption that cannot actually be proved. Wonder how that slipped through.
    Henry VIII could do without the pope and the Roman church but couldn't do without God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

    Regulated I would assume to mean disciplined and ordered, as used in the former name for the Royal Navy Police - "The Royal Navy Regulating Branch", and, of course, "The Queen's Regulations"
    Last edited by SIR; June 13th, 2016 at 03:41 AM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Erm, warning, stupid question inbound!

    Could someone who has a more than passing acquaintance with the US Constitution please explain to me what the word "regulated" means in respect of the 2nd Amendment?

    Many thanks.



    ps: I just noticed - being somewhat dim - that the Declaration of Independence is based on an unproven assumption that cannot actually be proved. Wonder how that slipped through.
    Well regulated explained

    As to the assumption that hasn't been proven... Well, that is why it is an assumption. It is a perfectly valid form of inductive logic. But to be honest, it's not clear which phrase you're referring to.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    A useful little link, thanks!

    Here is something from across the pond to add historical context;
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689
    Note well the right of protestants to bear arms for their defence as permitted by law.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    This is the ridiculous argument the left uses all the time. Well the founding fathers did not envision TV, the internet or radio but we don't say obtuse things like we need to limit these. The second amendment was not designed for deer hunting, it was designed to keep the power with the people. To give them a recourse against a standing army and tyrannical gov. Those who are against the second amendment know nothing of our history or the history of man in general. The lies the left tells that they do not want our guns is so thinly veiled that any real gun owner or one who actually looks at what is going on knows its a lie. When Dian Feinstein said after passing the 94 gun ban or crime bill as it was labeled, said that some are upset it did not go far enough but if I could have passed a bill that said Mr and Mrs America turn them all in I would have done that but there was not enough votes. We know the end game. Ammo up Ammo up people before you wish you had. Blaming guns for things like Orlando is like blaming the bat for Babe Ruth for hitting home runs. Islam is the problem for a lot of this. Muslims are peaceful. Trump is correct stop them from immigrating until we know what is going on.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    [QUOTE=Dragonmaster Lou;172391]
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You guys have been reading too many internet conspiracies.
    To be honest, I never believed that FDR had some conspiracy to goad the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor and trashing our fleet there. That's solidly in tin-foil-hat territory for me.

    Anyway, I did a bit more quick research on the whole "Japan meant to declare war before Pearl Harbor, but screwed up in notifying the US" thing... and well, it turns out even the Japanese were kinda fuzzy about it:

    http://faculty.virginia.edu/setear/s.../japanwc/2.htm

    The message that was late was not a formal declaration of war, but some in the Japanese government thought it was enough "fair warning" before the actual attack. They also felt giving some sort of warning (even if it was only 30 minutes before the attack was supposed to commence) was the honorable (and required under the terms of international law) thing to do, and honor is a big deal in Japanese culture going back to ancient times.
    The A-Bomb built by lazy Americans Tested in Japan. Lest you forget the Japanese went into China and Korea and raped and murdered hundreds of thousands. We owe nothing to the Japanese concerning the war. War is the medicine they chose and we gave them all that was needed to cure them. The Japanese took women of China and Korea and made them comfort women forced prostitution for the Japanese soldiers. They used Chinese citizens tied to post for bayonet practice and to test new land mines effectiveness. Not to mention Unit 731 in China where they did horrible testing medically on Chinese that made Mangle look like a Dr without boarders. We owe nothing to the Japanese for the war and after we were very magnanimous with the Marshall plan.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Erm, warning, stupid question inbound!

    Could someone who has a more than passing acquaintance with the US Constitution please explain to me what the word "regulated" means in respect of the 2nd Amendment?

    Many thanks.



    ps: I just noticed - being somewhat dim - that the Declaration of Independence is based on an unproven assumption that cannot actually be proved. Wonder how that slipped through.
    The founding fathers knew the power was a very dangerous thing. That the power should rest with the people, I.E you and me. They knew that a standing army is very dangerous and could be used against the people. To counter balance this a militia made up of citizens I.E you and me should have the ability to defend against a tyrannical government from taking power away form the people. If the people were armed and had the ability to fight against a hostile government it would put a check and balance to this possibility. It would make anyone in power think twice before trying this. Many Americans have become so mentally lazy they want every thing for free or given to them and love the idea of a Government that is a nanny state. The Bill of rights the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution are all rights of the individual not some right of the state or any other group. None have ever been repealed or even tried to be repealed. Only one amendment has ever been repealed. That is the 18th the Volstead act. The one making it illegal to make and or use Alcohol.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by edteach View Post
    The A-Bomb built by lazy Americans Tested in Japan. Lest you forget the Japanese went into China and Korea and raped and murdered hundreds of thousands. We owe nothing to the Japanese concerning the war. War is the medicine they chose and we gave them all that was needed to cure them. The Japanese took women of China and Korea and made them comfort women forced prostitution for the Japanese soldiers. They used Chinese citizens tied to post for bayonet practice and to test new land mines effectiveness. Not to mention Unit 731 in China where they did horrible testing medically on Chinese that made Mangle look like a Dr without boarders. We owe nothing to the Japanese for the war and after we were very magnanimous with the Marshall plan.
    Wait, wait, wait, what what?! Where are you getting any commentary about "owing" anything to the Japanese. I was simply stating that Pearl Harbor was not intended to be a pure unprovoked attack -- there was supposed to be at least some sort of warning, from the Japanese to the US, about it, although there was debate among Japanese officials as to whether the "we're pissed at you for doing x, y, and z" letter that was supposed to be delivered prior to Pearl Harbor was sufficient vs. a formal declaration of war.

    That is an entirely separate issue from the barbarism of the Japanese actions in carrying out the war itself, whether against the Chinese and Koreans, POWs, and so on, let alone the issue as to whether the use of the atom bomb was justified (which, to be fair, I think probably was justified given both the alternatives and the fact that knowledge of what the long term ramifications of using such a weapon would be was very limited at the time).

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    I was not accusing you, You brought up how some feel. I was just responding to that liberal rant about we were the aggressors in WW2 which is a fantasy.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SIR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    A useful little link, thanks!

    Here is something from across the pond to add historical context;
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689
    Note well the right of protestants to bear arms for their defence as permitted by law.
    I'm not sure I understand your emphasis on 'permitted by law'. Just to be clear, 'well regulated' in the context of the 2nd amendment means well equipped and trained.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your emphasis on 'permitted by law'. Just to be clear, 'well regulated' in the context of the 2nd amendment means well equipped and trained.
    My emphasis is on the fact that since that UK bill of rights was enacted in 1689, the British population has progressively lost 'permission in law' to bear arms for their own defence, though largely this has been within the last hundred or so years.

    I would agree that "well regulated" should be interpreted as training and by extension equipment, but an essential part of training is order and discipline.

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