The US 2nd Amendment.....

[jar]

Gentlemen,

On an admittedly personal note:

Most home invaders are male and the average male has 75-100 pounds on me and 17-23% more muscle fibers per ounce of muscle. That makes his uninvited presence in my home a lethal threat to me even if he is unarmed.

But he may not want to hurt me. He may want to hurt my beautiful 9 yr old boy. Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there. In these scenarios I will be on my own and I will do whatever it takes to protect that child and myself. In my case that includes a legally held and frequently drilled S&W. 9mm.

As far as the case of militias go, let's talk about the little pockets of islamicized areas pitting the face of the country. We may be grateful for those militias if things go the way they are in Europe. No one likes a warrior until the enemy is at the gates.

So many are squeamish about firearms. Of course I don't advocate their possession by the mentally ill but until we can effectively screen for those people, I don't want to give up my ability to protect myself because someone didn't get their head meds that day, swiped his brother's rifle and went looking for trouble.

What do y'all unarmed folks do in those scenarios above? How do you protect your women and your children?

And yes, my Daddy's from Texas.

The issue is to try to find balanced laws and to try to address the real problem that seems to be that many Americans are simply not civilized.

IMHO several steps really are needed. First would be an actual database of citizens; who really is here legally. The database should also contain a DNA sample from the individual.

Second is to stop using absurd and false arguments like "Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there." No laws have been passed in the US to allow a predator any new rights.

Next we need to integrate medical records as well as criminal records in the names database.

Then the sanctions for using a weapon in any crime need to be increased. I would also like to see the even bigger issue of traffic deaths addressed by first allowing an immediate stop and vehicle confiscated if someone is seen driving while using a cell phone or speeding or reckless driving. Just pull the car over, issue a ticket and put locks on the wheels until the car can be towed to the pound.

Waiting periods for pre-purchase checks need to be increased to allow accurate database searches with a requirement of at least two searches that find the individuals records and separated by at least a week.

Training in proficiency should be required with annual certification.

Medical professionals should have a means of immediately flagging an individual to require in depth investigation before a purchase or license renewal.

I would also like to see concealed carry outlawed. Let everyone know who is armed at all times.

[stonerman33]

Gentlemen,

On an admittedly personal note:

Most home invaders are male and the average male has 75-100 pounds on me and 17-23% more muscle fibers per ounce of muscle. That makes his uninvited presence in my home a lethal threat to me even if he is unarmed.

But he may not want to hurt me. He may want to hurt my beautiful 9 yr old boy. Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there. In these scenarios I will be on my own and I will do whatever it takes to protect that child and myself. In my case that includes a legally held and frequently drilled S&W. 9mm.

As far as the case of militias go, let's talk about the little pockets of islamicized areas pitting the face of the country. We may be grateful for those militias if things go the way they are in Europe. No one likes a warrior until the enemy is at the gates.

So many are squeamish about firearms. Of course I don't advocate their possession by the mentally ill but until we can effectively screen for those people, I don't want to give up my ability to protect myself because someone didn't get their head meds that day, swiped his brother's rifle and went looking for trouble.

What do y'all unarmed folks do in those scenarios above? How do you protect your women and your children?

And yes, my Daddy's from Texas.

The issue is to try to find balanced laws and to try to address the real problem that seems to be that many Americans are simply not civilized.

IMHO several steps really are needed. First would be an actual database of citizens; who really is here legally. The database should also contain a DNA sample from the individual.

Second is to stop using absurd and false arguments like "Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there." No laws have been passed in the US to allow a predator any new rights.

Next we need to integrate medical records as well as criminal records in the names database.

Then the sanctions for using a weapon in any crime need to be increased. I would also like to see the even bigger issue of traffic deaths addressed by first allowing an immediate stop and vehicle confiscated if someone is seen driving while using a cell phone or speeding or reckless driving. Just pull the car over, issue a ticket and put locks on the wheels until the car can be towed to the pound.

Waiting periods for pre-purchase checks need to be increased to allow accurate database searches with a requirement of at least two searches that find the individuals records and separated by at least a week.

Training in proficiency should be required with annual certification.

Medical professionals should have a means of immediately flagging an individual to require in depth investigation before a purchase or license renewal.

I would also like to see concealed carry outlawed. Let everyone know who is armed at all times.

I'm not so certain I'd want to live in your version of America.

[VertOlive]

---"Second is to stop using absurd and false arguments like "Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there." No laws have been passed in the US to allow a predator any new rights."---

Now that men who feel like a woman that day can share the bathroom with us, it is hardly absurd. The bathroom laws make it possible for him/her to enter without anyone questioning it, they don't legalize predation, they enable it. It's not the lame trans guy I'm worried about, it's the predator who will use the unquestioned access for no good.

My version of America comes from 27 years' work with the local Medical Examiner. Maybe others dwell in Disneyland or have the benefit of those extra 75 pounds. I'm grateful to have means to defend myself and I'm satisfied to have no one know I'm carrying.

[jar]

---"Second is to stop using absurd and false arguments like "Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there." No laws have been passed in the US to allow a predator any new rights."---

Now that men who feel like a woman that day can share the bathroom with us, it is hardly absurd. The bathroom laws make it possible for him/her to enter without anyone questioning it, they don't legalize predation, they enable it. It's not the lame trans guy I'm worried about, it's the predator who will use the unquestioned access for no good.

My version of America comes from 27 years' work with the local Medical Examiner. Maybe others dwell in Disneyland or have the benefit of those extra 75 pounds. I'm grateful to have means to defend myself and I'm satisfied to have no one know I'm carrying.

Predators have always had the ability to dress as a woman and enter women's bathrooms.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

As naive as this may sound, I have to ask: what is it about American society and its values that leads to incidences that appear to require a firearm to address, and which makes it different to (say) New Zealand or Australia?

[heymatthew]

The 2nd amendment was originally in place for the people to rise up against a tyrannical government, and as the governments firearms have evolved, so have "the people's."

It's already against the law to murder someone. It's against the law to shoot up a school. It's against the law to shoot pigeons off your neighbors roof in the city limits. The laws are only useful if they are enforced and enforced consistently. Only the law abiding will bother to abide by the law, so you're "infringing" on the good people by enacting more stringent gun control laws. The bad guy who wants a gun is going to find one illegally, but we knew that would happen as the bad guy doesn't care about the law.

Violent crime rates have DECREASED fairly dramatically since the mid 80s as concealed carry laws were enacted across the nation, despite what some anti-gun groups claim. Read the statistics for yourself, they are in black and white from the FBI.

I grew up in a pretty safe small town in Wisconsin, the son of a career cop. Guns and hunting have always been part of my life, and remains a hobby I share with both of my parents. We also take our safety seriously. My dad has put a lot of the previously mentioned "bad guys" behind bars in his 30+ years wearing a badge. Some of them hold grudges.

If anything is at fault in our system, it's the failure of individual states to submit mental health records to the background check system. It's hard to keep the guns away from the crazies of the state isn't submitting those records to the database.

In the end, the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, and I refuse to hide behind a garbage can waiting for him to show up.

THIS. ALL DAY LONG. THIS.

Thank God someone has some common sense in regards to gun laws. I don't even need to read the rest.

[Terie_Benjamin]

As naive as this may sound, I have to ask: what is it about American society and its values that leads to incidences that appear to require a firearm to address, and which makes it different to (say) New Zealand or Australia?

It's my right to bear arms. I learned to shoot when I was 6 yrs old. I will defend myself and family. You break into my home god help you. I will shoot without hesitation. God bless America and our rights. I'm actually going for my ccl very soon.
And yes that's me and a lapua sniper

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Obviously you didn't understand my question, or didn't want to.

[Terie_Benjamin]

Obviously you didn't understand my question, or didn't want to.

Why don't you ask the criminals? Maybe they could tell you why they feel the need to rob, beat up, and or kill people

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I wasn't asking why criminals do what they do, I am asking about the kind of situations in which a regular US person feels a gun is the solution. I want to know the statistics that show the levels of those situations by country. I haven't been able to dig up a definition of such situations nor the statistics.

The thing is, there are many countries in the world where public gun ownership is not permitted except under very strict controls. In those countries I daresay they have the same types of incidence for which you feel a gun is the only answer. However, in those countries there is generally no public demand for self-arming. So I wonder if the overall level of that TYPE of crime is different across nations on a per population level.


VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: I understand this is a potentially emotive issue, and that some people think that even being asked a question about it means that their rights are being impugned and thus get unnecessarily dramatic about it. I am ex-mil so it's not like I am unfamiliar with these tools.

[VertOlive]

---"Second is to stop using absurd and false arguments like "Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there." No laws have been passed in the US to allow a predator any new rights."---

Now that men who feel like a woman that day can share the bathroom with us, it is hardly absurd. The bathroom laws make it possible for him/her to enter without anyone questioning it, they don't legalize predation, they enable it. It's not the lame trans guy I'm worried about, it's the predator who will use the unquestioned access for no good.

My version of America comes from 27 years' work with the local Medical Examiner. Maybe others dwell in Disneyland or have the benefit of those extra 75 pounds. I'm grateful to have means to defend myself and I'm satisfied to have no one know I'm carrying.

Predators have always had the ability to dress as a woman and enter women's bathrooms.

This will bring more out of the woodwork and now they don't have to dress as a woman. Doubt the gents have to worry much about women crashing the men's room.

EoC: Those statistics would be interesting indeed. For me they would be academic. There is no home on my cul de sac that has not been broken into (except mine, pure luck) in the past five years, there was an armed standoff with the police on the street behind us this spring, and an armed assailant who had shot a young man in front of our rectory caught by the police outside our parish chapel the same week. And ours is a solidly middle class neighborhood. I'm not naive enough to think my 9mm is the sole solution, but it's an option I intend to keep on my person at all times.

[jar]

---"Second is to stop using absurd and false arguments like "Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there." No laws have been passed in the US to allow a predator any new rights."---

Now that men who feel like a woman that day can share the bathroom with us, it is hardly absurd. The bathroom laws make it possible for him/her to enter without anyone questioning it, they don't legalize predation, they enable it. It's not the lame trans guy I'm worried about, it's the predator who will use the unquestioned access for no good.

My version of America comes from 27 years' work with the local Medical Examiner. Maybe others dwell in Disneyland or have the benefit of those extra 75 pounds. I'm grateful to have means to defend myself and I'm satisfied to have no one know I'm carrying.

Predators have always had the ability to dress as a woman and enter women's bathrooms.

This will bring more out of the woodwork and now they don't have to dress as a woman. Doubt the gents have to worry much about women crashing the men's room.

EoC: Those statistics would be interesting indeed. For me they would be academic. There is no home on my cul de sac that has not been broken into (except mine, pure luck) in the past five years, there was an armed standoff with the police on the street behind us this spring, and an armed assailant who had shot a young man in front of our rectory caught by the police outside our parish chapel the same week. And ours is a solidly middle class neighborhood. I'm not naive enough to think my 9mm is the sole solution, but it's an option I intend to keep on my person at all times.

Nonsense. Someone who looks like a man in a woman's restroom will still raise eyes and likely result in at least intervention.

And until there is some evidence your fears are not simply fantasy there is no reason to worry about any changes in restroom policy unless of course you really enjoy worrying.

Look, I'm a strong supporter of gun rights but I am also not so foolish as to believe we do not need to address the issue.

And I will match my arsenal against your arsenal anyday.

[Quantum Sailor]

As naive as this may sound, I have to ask: what is it about American society and its values that leads to incidences that appear to require a firearm to address, and which makes it different to (say) New Zealand or Australia?

I actually had a few responses typed out and deleted all of them. I settled on stating that the topic is completely toxic in the U.S. and I don't think you'll find one answer to that question. Gun ownership here is pretty much a religion. The beliefs are just as deep rooted usually.

As for your second statement I don't think you'll find concrete statistics here. There's a very vested interest on both sides to keep the statistics as skewed as possible, even government statistics are skewed in some studies.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

You're probably right, on all counts. It would have been nice to be able to discuss the issue as paper problem.

[jar]

You're probably right, on all counts. It would have been nice to be able to discuss the issue as paper problem.

Discussions like that can continue with the hope that others reading the discussions may learn stuff. But I'm not sure there is an answer to the specific question you asked that has much real validity or use. In the US firearms are pervasive and relatively easy to get. But the US is not as violent as it seems. Compared to the area just south of the Rio Grande, where I live in Texas is considerably less violent than the northern border of Mexico.

The question is "What has changed in the last quarter century to create a situation where guns are a problem?"

When I was younger guns in the US were ubiquitous. Most every house even in town I went to had a gun rack with a couple shotguns and several rifles, ammo on the shelf, often a hand gun just sitting out in the open and in the country the varment gun standing by the back door. Pickups all had a gun rack in the rear window usually with a Winchester 30-30 or a Browning Sweet Sixteen in residence and the truck doors would be unlocked and if summer, windows rolled down. Guns in a pickup would of course be loaded; pretty useless if empty.

But from an early age kids were taught that those guns were NOT toys and that you simply did not touch them and if one was found where it should not be to tell an adult. But kids, elementary school level kids also likely had a pocket knife with them at all times, boys and girls, and they were used during class to sharpen pencils and at recess to play mumbley-peg or whittle. That culture of taught behavior is significant.

Yet I don't remember many instances of guns stolen or fights ending up in shootings.

Guns were used by criminals in robberies, it was true, but even there shootings were the exception.

So what has changed?

Second, what are the issues faced in the US.

First is the matter of that 2nd. Amendment. It's vague and open to interpretation but it is there.

Second is the simply matter that there is a stockpile of a hundreds of years of gun accumulation. There are just a bunch of guns out there in the wild.

Third is the fact that the gun itself is not the problem but rather the person who might be using the gun. In the US we have almost no legal or social controls over people. We don't even have a list of who is a US Citizen.

We passed a few laws that were supposed to help regulate who bought a gun and they did help a little, but not much. We simply do not have the information needed to even try to determine if an individual is qualified to own or use a gun.

So there are a bunch of facets that do need discussing but there is also a lot of ignorance about the subject out there as well as just plain propaganda. The discussion will be difficult and nothing will happen quickly or without pain but fortunately the issue really is not as big or important as the media frenzy seems to indicate.

In the US you need to fear our drivers, our pedestrians, our sue crazy public, the errors made by our medical profession, the quality of our air and water, the infrastructure you drive on and rely on far more than guns.

[VertOlive]

"Nonsense. Someone who looks like a man in a woman's restroom will still raise eyes and likely result in at least intervention."

--That's right, they'll raise my eyes and I will be ready. Certainly store management cannot intervene if they have a policy of "anything goes restrooms".

"And until there is some evidence your fears are not simply fantasy..."

--Did you miss the concrete description of what I have done for a living and the conditions in my neighborhood?

"And I will match my arsenal against your arsenal anyday."

--Well heck, lets get out to the gun range and have some fun, my friend!

[jar]

"Nonsense. Someone who looks like a man in a woman's restroom will still raise eyes and likely result in at least intervention."

--That's right, they'll raise my eyes and I will be ready. Certainly store management cannot intervene if they have a policy of "anything goes restrooms".

"And until there is some evidence your fears are not simply fantasy..."

--Did you miss the concrete description of what I have done for a living and the conditions in my neighborhood?

"And I will match my arsenal against your arsenal anyday."

--Well heck, lets get out to the gun range and have some fun, my friend!

Yes I do miss any concrete evidence based on what you have done for a living and the conditions in your neighborhood. In fact I can see absolutely no connection between this topic and those assertions. I certainly see no relationship between your assertions and recent laws concerning restrooms and certainly no support that "anything goes restrooms" exist anywhere other than some folks imagination.

Anytime we are in the same area a range day would be fun. I was exercising my S&W Model 3 Improved 38S&W just the other day. Still find it a near perfect design.

[bluesea]

[bluesea]

My version of America comes from 27 years' work with the local Medical Examiner. Maybe others dwell in Disneyland or have the benefit of those extra 75 pounds. I'm grateful to have means to defend myself and I'm satisfied to have no one know I'm carrying.

The knowledge gleaned there and in Emergency Rooms is not reflected by statistics or the news.

[duckmcf]

Hi Gang,
Here in Oz, we had a series of mass shootings up until a big one in '96 when our government shut down the gun party with a massive buy-back scheme of semi automatic rifles and shot guns. The general population (including me) was all for it and the lawful shooters couldn't stop it because there is nothing in our constitution that they could use to prevent it. Since then, touch wood, there hasn't been another mass shooting in Australia. There's been plenty of individual underworld and other single person shootings, but no AR-15 style shootings with dozens shot.

As an outsider I originally kicked this thread off to try get an understanding of the mentality behind gun ownership in the US and if there's any merit in your government re-examining the 2nd amendment to either endorse it or repeal it. As we've gone down this long and winding thread, it's become clear that there's just no point discussing it. It's like arguing religion or politics; no one wins. All that said there are a few points that really kill this whole debate stone dead:

A gun buy-back wont work in the US because:

- There are just too many unregistered guns in circulation in the US. Some guns are owned by criminals, some by law abiding citizens. If the general population thinks that the crims are hanging on to their guns, they wont give theirs back either. It's the, if-we-give-our-guns-back-only-the-criminals-will-have-them defence, which is hard to argue with.

- It'd be just too damn expensive. I'm assuming that the US government couldn't seize currently legal property without compensation and I would also guess that the budget for any significant buy-back proposal would be so large as to be not reasonably viable. Especially given that those dollars would probably be better spent in other areas and potentially deliver a greater number of lives saved (if lives saved is the actual goal of gun-control; I sometime wonder if that's the true agenda).

- The gun culture in the US seams to be so pervasive that you can't imagine it not being there. That may or may not be a bad thing, but I think we can all agree it to be true.

- It may just not be the right thing to do, the unintended consequences may be worse than the cure.


Anyway, this topic causes more angst than it solves and so I really do apologise for starting it last year.

Cheers
Noel
- Aussie non-gun owner who is still free to use the horn in his car when someone cuts him off in traffic. ;-)