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Thread: The US 2nd Amendment.....

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    Default The US 2nd Amendment.....



    Hi Gang,
    I think it's time for a referendum to either endorse or repeal the 2nd amendment to the US constitution.

    Now before either side of this flames me to ash, I'm not on either side here.
    I'm simply saying that it's well past time to put this question to the people and settle it once and for all.

    Cheers,
    Noel aka DuckMcF

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Interesting first post.

    The 2nd protects all the rest.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Yes, I joined a couple of years ago, but I normally hang out on fountain pen network.
    I didn't realize it was first post until you mentioned it.

    Anyway, how does the 2nd amendment protect the rest?
    I would've thought that the 1st amendment provides more protection than the 2nd, in a modern context.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonerman33 View Post
    Interesting first post.

    The 2nd protects all the rest.
    Last edited by duckmcf; September 24th, 2015 at 03:55 AM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    I think it's time for a referendum to either endorse or repeal the 2nd amendment to the US constitution. Now before either side of this flames me to ash, I'm not on either side here. I'm simply saying that it's well past time to put this question to the people and settle it once and for all.
    Now wait a minute. You have only two posts total, both in this thread alone, and in a fountain pen forum that serves an international body of pen collectors, many (if not most) of whom are not even bound by American law, and suddenly you find it's "well past time" for international fountain pen collectors to vote on American constitutional law "to settle it once and for all"? Wow! Are you planning on forwarding the result to the US Congress to have them draft legislation, pointing out the finality of the "once and for all" weight carried by a Pen Geek vote?

    I am just amazed where some people think they're coming from.

    Fred

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    Senior Member pengeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    I think I have the right to bear arms every time I'm outside working.....


    John

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    I think it's time for a referendum to either endorse or repeal the 2nd amendment to the US constitution. Now before either side of this flames me to ash, I'm not on either side here. I'm simply saying that it's well past time to put this question to the people and settle it once and for all.
    Now wait a minute. You have only two posts total, both in this thread alone, and in a fountain pen forum that serves an international body of pen collectors, many (if not most) of whom are not even bound by American law, and suddenly you find it's "well past time" for international fountain pen collectors to vote on American constitutional law "to settle it once and for all"? Wow! Are you planning on forwarding the result to the US Congress to have them draft legislation, pointing out the finality of the "once and for all" weight carried by a Pen Geek vote?

    I am just amazed where some people think they're coming from.

    Fred
    OK, so it's full-contact in here. Good to know.

    A few points:

    Yes, this turned out to be my first post and I apologise for that. I really thought that I'd posted here before but the number doesn't lie. Had I realised, I wouldn't have started this topic as I agree that it's really uncalled for to start a topic like this from someone with zero standing in the forum. For what ever it's worth I'm been into fountain pens ever since I tried to fix my father Parker 51 in the mid 70's. It was an epic fail, but I was recently able to buy a NOS exact version of the pen I destroyed (P51, aerometric, navy grey, B nib). That said, this off topic forum is titled, "Politics, Religion, and Society". I took that at face value as it's not a common feature of web forums such as this and so I gave the wheel a spin.

    My well-past-time reference was not aimed at this forum, but rather at the US government. Of course I don't expect these posts to be passed on to the US Congress to have them draft legislation. My point was to try and get an understanding of what people in the US think of this idea.

    Every time there's a mass shooting in the US, one side wrings their collective hands and complains that meaningful gun control is impossible to implement. Meanwhile the other side says, Yes, that's right the 2nd amendment protects us from gun control". So what's wrong with putting it to the people to decide?

    Finally, here's where I'm coming from; Australia. I and a good number of my friends were right into sports shooting until our government more or less stopped it in the wake of the Port Aurthur shooting in the mid 90's. At the time I was really torn as I really enjoyed target shooting, but I knew a couple of people that were shot at Port Aurthur and that really changed my view.

    I was just saying and asking (in a clumsily worded kind of way), why not put this question to the people in US and have them vote on endorsing or repealing the 2nd amendment in a referendum. That would put an end to the gun control issue one way or the other, wouldn't it?

    Noel

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Noel has a point. In 17 something the "right to bear arms" had a different meaning to what's available now. Not too many ( or any ? ) mass murders with a muzzle loading long gun !! Allowing "fruit cakes" access to SLRs and armour piercing ammo without any checks is stupid. Has gun control worked in Australia? Of course not...there's a massive pool of weapons out "there"...mainly in criminal hands. Still at least some control does reduce the one off mental breakdown issues. What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    The 2nd amendment was originally in place for the people to rise up against a tyrannical government, and as the governments firearms have evolved, so have "the people's."

    It's already against the law to murder someone. It's against the law to shoot up a school. It's against the law to shoot pigeons off your neighbors roof in the city limits. The laws are only useful if they are enforced and enforced consistently. Only the law abiding will bother to abide by the law, so you're "infringing" on the good people by enacting more stringent gun control laws. The bad guy who wants a gun is going to find one illegally, but we knew that would happen as the bad guy doesn't care about the law.

    Violent crime rates have DECREASED fairly dramatically since the mid 80s as concealed carry laws were enacted across the nation, despite what some anti-gun groups claim. Read the statistics for yourself, they are in black and white from the FBI.

    I grew up in a pretty safe small town in Wisconsin, the son of a career cop. Guns and hunting have always been part of my life, and remains a hobby I share with both of my parents. We also take our safety seriously. My dad has put a lot of the previously mentioned "bad guys" behind bars in his 30+ years wearing a badge. Some of them hold grudges.

    If anything is at fault in our system, it's the failure of individual states to submit mental health records to the background check system. It's hard to keep the guns away from the crazies of the state isn't submitting those records to the database.

    In the end, the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, and I refuse to hide behind a garbage can waiting for him to show up.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Yes, I understand.
    I get both sides of this, I really do.

    There's the,
    "What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?", that HughC nicely summarized.

    Verses the,
    'if guns are banned only the criminals will have them' /
    "the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that stonerman33 also nicely put forward.

    What I'm saying is that this is a never ending rhetorical argument that blows up every 6 weeks or so when there's yet another mass shooting that, I think, can be solved by a country wide referendum.

    Basically, let democracy work it out in a no holes barred, 2 go in, 1 comes out fight for gun freedom or gun control.

    Power to the people; right on.

    Cheers,
    Noel

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Yes, I understand.
    I get both sides of this, I really do.

    There's the,
    "What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?", that HughC nicely summarized.

    Verses the,
    'if guns are banned only the criminals will have them' /
    "the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that stonerman33 also nicely put forward.

    What I'm saying is that this is a never ending rhetorical argument that blows up every 6 weeks or so when there's yet another mass shooting that, I think, can be solved by a country wide referendum.

    Basically, let democracy work it out in a no holes barred, 2 go in, 1 comes out fight for gun freedom or gun control.

    Power to the people; right on.

    Cheers,
    Noel


    Wish I could agree with you Noel,but the fact is that even if it were to be put to a national vote and it
    were enacted,there would still be those that were so angry that they couldn't own guns anymore
    that if they didn't go and get a gun illegally,they would still find a way to permanently harm some-
    one in their release of anger. There are a number of reasons why gun control doesn't work:


    1) As Hugh pointed out,times back when the 2nd Amendment was first created are totally diff-
    erent than they are today. Guns were necessary for protection in a wilderness called Amer-
    ica. Neither was there any desire for warfare having just come out of the Revoluntionary
    War.

    2) If I wanted to kill someone,there are many other ways to do it--a gun just makes doing the
    job quicker.

    3) Those with authority calling for gun control are usually on the other side of protection(pol-
    ticians,gov't officials,corporate heads,those with some sort of local authority) and expect
    that protection to be there when they're threatened. John Q. Public? He's on his own.

    4) The guns that would be taken away would be those that belong to John Q. Public. In effect,
    no one would have a right to defend themselves in a fair manner.It's about who's doing
    the control.


    It's nice to think that we could all get along without having to arm ourselves,but there are
    those(in every country) that think they have the right to take from others as they please
    whenever they feel like it. As another member rightly pointed out,criminals don't get their
    guns in a legal manner.


    John
    Last edited by pengeezer; September 26th, 2015 at 04:27 PM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Yes, I understand.
    I get both sides of this, I really do.

    There's the,
    "What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?", that HughC nicely summarized.

    Verses the,
    'if guns are banned only the criminals will have them' /
    "the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that stonerman33 also nicely put forward.

    What I'm saying is that this is a never ending rhetorical argument that blows up every 6 weeks or so when there's yet another mass shooting that, I think, can be solved by a country wide referendum.

    Basically, let democracy work it out in a no holes barred, 2 go in, 1 comes out fight for gun freedom or gun control.

    Power to the people; right on.

    Cheers,
    Noel
    We don't do "country-wide referendums". Either you aren't American or (if you are) you didn't pay attention in civics.

    - When the Clinton administration enacted the "assault weapon" ban, the country threw out the majority party that enacted it.
    - When the issue reached the Supreme Court (several times), the intent of the wording was made perfectly clear.
    - The overwhelming majority of States have loosened restrictions on public possession (usually concealed).

    The American people have worked it out, many times. A vocal minority keeps bringing it back up as if the discussion hasn't taken place yet. That's simply not true. They just don't like the result.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Yes, I joined a couple of years ago, but I normally hang out on fountain pen network.
    I didn't realize it was first post until you mentioned it.

    Anyway, how does the 2nd amendment protect the rest?
    I would've thought that the 1st amendment provides more protection than the 2nd, in a modern context.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonerman33 View Post
    Interesting first post.

    The 2nd protects all the rest.
    Your "modern context" ignores the reality of the State of Nature defined by Hobbes in Leviathan

    If I have a gun and you don't, I can take away your free speech but you can't take away mine.

    It's as simple as that.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Ok, so to summarise, can't win, don't try.

    As a non-American I didn't realize that the US doesn't have country wide referenda. So I guess to get any constitutional admendments through you'd have to wrangle all of the 50 states. Now it all makes sense why it's impossible to change direction on gun control.

    I wonder how this will unfold over the next couple of hundred years as weapons become ever more sophisticated?

    I'll end all this with a quote Arnie in The Terminator film, "Plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range".

    Cheers
    Noel

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Article 5 of the U.S. Constitution describes the procedures to amend the Constitution. Congress can propose amendments (passed by a 2/3rds majority in each house), or 2/3rds of the States can call a convention for proposing amendments (this latter method has never happened). Any proposed amendment then has to be ratified by 3/4ths of the States.

    Currently there is a growing movement for the States to call a convention, to propose amendments reducing the power of the Federal government. The argument is that the Federal government has overstepped the limitations imposed upon it by the 10th amendment. The Constitution doesn't give the Federal government many powers, and the majority of Federal laws are justified under an interpretation of the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution; via the Supreme Court Case Wickard v. Filburn.

    The type of weapon doesn't really matter. Rwandans didn't need guns to kill many hundreds of thousands. What has been statistically shown to be the case is that firearms reduce crimes, and the number of crimes prevented by the presence of a firearm outnumbers deaths at an exponential rate.

    Although you claim otherwise, you seem to be advocating the repeal of the 2nd Amendment.
    Last edited by dneal; September 26th, 2015 at 09:45 PM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    If I read the US stats correctly the majority of gun related deaths are suicides and hand guns the favoured weapon in all instances. Mass shootings are percentage wise very small, again hand guns feature prominently. There are also stats that break down down race , gender, socio economic background etc. On a cursory take mental illness , people with a violent past and substance abuse seem to feature highly ( hardly surprising...). All of which are issues that can (possibly) be addressed with earlier intervention to reduce the risks. It would appear reducing gun access to certain people and addressing the underlying problems would reap benefits.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Can I go on an English language forum without being bothered with the American politics on firearms please? I think this is the third time I stumble across this topic this month. I'm even being spammed on it on mailing lists.

    This is an international community (just like most other English language boards I frequent), and wouldn't it be a great idea to keep weapons and politics discussions on American boards instead?

    My apologies for the rant, but this is getting very frustrating for us non-Americans. I have no idea what's going on in the USA, or in what way they threaten to limit your rights. But that's national politics, in my opinion, and on a topic that Americans probably have a different viewpoint on than the rest of the world anyway.

    Thank you!

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    The title of the thread was perfectly clear, and it's in the Politics, Religion and Society sub-forum. You didn't have to click on it or read it, so any "bother" you experienced is of your own making.

    Complaining about political topics in a political forum is like going into a church and being bothered by all the religion.
    Last edited by dneal; September 27th, 2015 at 10:00 AM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Yes, you are right, and I should apologise, I guess. It's just that Tapatalk presented it as the first unread post to me ... unfortunately you cannot filter out subforums.

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Although you claim otherwise, you seem to be advocating the repeal of the 2nd Amendment.
    Hi dneal,
    Yes, I think you're probably right.

    If the government loosened our gun laws over here, I'd probably get back into target / yippee shooting as there really isn't anything like a centre-fire repeating riffle for dusting off the cobwebs. However, if they had a popular vote on going back to the guns laws we had before the Port Aurthur shooting, I'd have to vote, "No".

    In the late 80's and early 90's we had quite a few mass shootings at regular intervals. Since the ban on any type of self loading rifle (including .22 semis like the Ruger 1022 if you can believe that) and the heavily restricted and monitored availability of hand guns, mass shootings have all but stopped.

    Thinking it through that probably wouldn't be the same if the US adopted Australian style laws as gun culture in the US is far more widespread and mainstream there than it is here, but I guess what I'm asking is, isn't it worth a try just to see what happens?

    Cheers
    Noel

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    No, it isn't worth a try to see what happens.

    Gary Kleck (a self avowed "tree-hugging, Obama voting liberal") is the criminology professor who estimated U.S. defensive gun uses at 2.5M. His critics claim that number is grossly overestimated, and that it should be only around 800K. Even if we disregarded Kleck's work (and if you read his paper and methodology, his estimates are probably low) and go with the naysayers 800K number, would we be better off letting those crimes (that were prevented) happen?

    John Lott was a University of Chicago professor who compiled crime statistics for every county in the United States, and found that more guns do indeed make for less crime. He continues to update his data, and as more states have passed concealed carry laws, crime has fallen. Those who do not choose to carry a weapon still benefit from those who choose to, because would-be criminals can't tell the difference. The places with the highest violent crime rates are urban areas with strict gun control (Chicago, Washington D.C., Baltimore, etc...).

    Neither of those academic papers, submitted for peer review, have been refuted. There have been a few pseudo-refutations published (and perpetuated) by the anti-gun side, and they get cited a lot as all-encompassing invalidations of Kleck's and Lott's work; but if you do the homework and look at it objectively you'll find that those refutations don't hold water.

    Mass shootings in the U.S. are tragic, but statistically insignificant (as an aside, they almost always happen in gun-free zones. Coincidence?). Should we ban commercial flights because some crash or are hijacked? We would never have another Malaysia 370, Pan Am 103 or 9/11 incident if we stopped flying aircraft.

    In the case of your country - mass shootings have stopped, but what has happened with other violent crime? Have home break-ins increased (particularly those occurring when the occupant is home)? Have criminals simply resorted to other weapons?

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