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    Default The US 2nd Amendment.....



    Hi Gang,
    I think it's time for a referendum to either endorse or repeal the 2nd amendment to the US constitution.

    Now before either side of this flames me to ash, I'm not on either side here.
    I'm simply saying that it's well past time to put this question to the people and settle it once and for all.

    Cheers,
    Noel aka DuckMcF

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Interesting first post.

    The 2nd protects all the rest.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Yes, I joined a couple of years ago, but I normally hang out on fountain pen network.
    I didn't realize it was first post until you mentioned it.

    Anyway, how does the 2nd amendment protect the rest?
    I would've thought that the 1st amendment provides more protection than the 2nd, in a modern context.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonerman33 View Post
    Interesting first post.

    The 2nd protects all the rest.
    Last edited by duckmcf; September 24th, 2015 at 03:55 AM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Yes, I joined a couple of years ago, but I normally hang out on fountain pen network.
    I didn't realize it was first post until you mentioned it.

    Anyway, how does the 2nd amendment protect the rest?
    I would've thought that the 1st amendment provides more protection than the 2nd, in a modern context.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonerman33 View Post
    Interesting first post.

    The 2nd protects all the rest.
    Your "modern context" ignores the reality of the State of Nature defined by Hobbes in Leviathan

    If I have a gun and you don't, I can take away your free speech but you can't take away mine.

    It's as simple as that.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    I think it's time for a referendum to either endorse or repeal the 2nd amendment to the US constitution. Now before either side of this flames me to ash, I'm not on either side here. I'm simply saying that it's well past time to put this question to the people and settle it once and for all.
    Now wait a minute. You have only two posts total, both in this thread alone, and in a fountain pen forum that serves an international body of pen collectors, many (if not most) of whom are not even bound by American law, and suddenly you find it's "well past time" for international fountain pen collectors to vote on American constitutional law "to settle it once and for all"? Wow! Are you planning on forwarding the result to the US Congress to have them draft legislation, pointing out the finality of the "once and for all" weight carried by a Pen Geek vote?

    I am just amazed where some people think they're coming from.

    Fred

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    I think it's time for a referendum to either endorse or repeal the 2nd amendment to the US constitution. Now before either side of this flames me to ash, I'm not on either side here. I'm simply saying that it's well past time to put this question to the people and settle it once and for all.
    Now wait a minute. You have only two posts total, both in this thread alone, and in a fountain pen forum that serves an international body of pen collectors, many (if not most) of whom are not even bound by American law, and suddenly you find it's "well past time" for international fountain pen collectors to vote on American constitutional law "to settle it once and for all"? Wow! Are you planning on forwarding the result to the US Congress to have them draft legislation, pointing out the finality of the "once and for all" weight carried by a Pen Geek vote?

    I am just amazed where some people think they're coming from.

    Fred
    OK, so it's full-contact in here. Good to know.

    A few points:

    Yes, this turned out to be my first post and I apologise for that. I really thought that I'd posted here before but the number doesn't lie. Had I realised, I wouldn't have started this topic as I agree that it's really uncalled for to start a topic like this from someone with zero standing in the forum. For what ever it's worth I'm been into fountain pens ever since I tried to fix my father Parker 51 in the mid 70's. It was an epic fail, but I was recently able to buy a NOS exact version of the pen I destroyed (P51, aerometric, navy grey, B nib). That said, this off topic forum is titled, "Politics, Religion, and Society". I took that at face value as it's not a common feature of web forums such as this and so I gave the wheel a spin.

    My well-past-time reference was not aimed at this forum, but rather at the US government. Of course I don't expect these posts to be passed on to the US Congress to have them draft legislation. My point was to try and get an understanding of what people in the US think of this idea.

    Every time there's a mass shooting in the US, one side wrings their collective hands and complains that meaningful gun control is impossible to implement. Meanwhile the other side says, Yes, that's right the 2nd amendment protects us from gun control". So what's wrong with putting it to the people to decide?

    Finally, here's where I'm coming from; Australia. I and a good number of my friends were right into sports shooting until our government more or less stopped it in the wake of the Port Aurthur shooting in the mid 90's. At the time I was really torn as I really enjoyed target shooting, but I knew a couple of people that were shot at Port Aurthur and that really changed my view.

    I was just saying and asking (in a clumsily worded kind of way), why not put this question to the people in US and have them vote on endorsing or repealing the 2nd amendment in a referendum. That would put an end to the gun control issue one way or the other, wouldn't it?

    Noel

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    I think I have the right to bear arms every time I'm outside working.....


    John

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Noel has a point. In 17 something the "right to bear arms" had a different meaning to what's available now. Not too many ( or any ? ) mass murders with a muzzle loading long gun !! Allowing "fruit cakes" access to SLRs and armour piercing ammo without any checks is stupid. Has gun control worked in Australia? Of course not...there's a massive pool of weapons out "there"...mainly in criminal hands. Still at least some control does reduce the one off mental breakdown issues. What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    This is the ridiculous argument the left uses all the time. Well the founding fathers did not envision TV, the internet or radio but we don't say obtuse things like we need to limit these. The second amendment was not designed for deer hunting, it was designed to keep the power with the people. To give them a recourse against a standing army and tyrannical gov. Those who are against the second amendment know nothing of our history or the history of man in general. The lies the left tells that they do not want our guns is so thinly veiled that any real gun owner or one who actually looks at what is going on knows its a lie. When Dian Feinstein said after passing the 94 gun ban or crime bill as it was labeled, said that some are upset it did not go far enough but if I could have passed a bill that said Mr and Mrs America turn them all in I would have done that but there was not enough votes. We know the end game. Ammo up Ammo up people before you wish you had. Blaming guns for things like Orlando is like blaming the bat for Babe Ruth for hitting home runs. Islam is the problem for a lot of this. Muslims are peaceful. Trump is correct stop them from immigrating until we know what is going on.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    The 2nd amendment was originally in place for the people to rise up against a tyrannical government, and as the governments firearms have evolved, so have "the people's."

    It's already against the law to murder someone. It's against the law to shoot up a school. It's against the law to shoot pigeons off your neighbors roof in the city limits. The laws are only useful if they are enforced and enforced consistently. Only the law abiding will bother to abide by the law, so you're "infringing" on the good people by enacting more stringent gun control laws. The bad guy who wants a gun is going to find one illegally, but we knew that would happen as the bad guy doesn't care about the law.

    Violent crime rates have DECREASED fairly dramatically since the mid 80s as concealed carry laws were enacted across the nation, despite what some anti-gun groups claim. Read the statistics for yourself, they are in black and white from the FBI.

    I grew up in a pretty safe small town in Wisconsin, the son of a career cop. Guns and hunting have always been part of my life, and remains a hobby I share with both of my parents. We also take our safety seriously. My dad has put a lot of the previously mentioned "bad guys" behind bars in his 30+ years wearing a badge. Some of them hold grudges.

    If anything is at fault in our system, it's the failure of individual states to submit mental health records to the background check system. It's hard to keep the guns away from the crazies of the state isn't submitting those records to the database.

    In the end, the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, and I refuse to hide behind a garbage can waiting for him to show up.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Yes, I understand.
    I get both sides of this, I really do.

    There's the,
    "What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?", that HughC nicely summarized.

    Verses the,
    'if guns are banned only the criminals will have them' /
    "the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that stonerman33 also nicely put forward.

    What I'm saying is that this is a never ending rhetorical argument that blows up every 6 weeks or so when there's yet another mass shooting that, I think, can be solved by a country wide referendum.

    Basically, let democracy work it out in a no holes barred, 2 go in, 1 comes out fight for gun freedom or gun control.

    Power to the people; right on.

    Cheers,
    Noel

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Yes, I understand.
    I get both sides of this, I really do.

    There's the,
    "What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?", that HughC nicely summarized.

    Verses the,
    'if guns are banned only the criminals will have them' /
    "the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that stonerman33 also nicely put forward.

    What I'm saying is that this is a never ending rhetorical argument that blows up every 6 weeks or so when there's yet another mass shooting that, I think, can be solved by a country wide referendum.

    Basically, let democracy work it out in a no holes barred, 2 go in, 1 comes out fight for gun freedom or gun control.

    Power to the people; right on.

    Cheers,
    Noel


    Wish I could agree with you Noel,but the fact is that even if it were to be put to a national vote and it
    were enacted,there would still be those that were so angry that they couldn't own guns anymore
    that if they didn't go and get a gun illegally,they would still find a way to permanently harm some-
    one in their release of anger. There are a number of reasons why gun control doesn't work:


    1) As Hugh pointed out,times back when the 2nd Amendment was first created are totally diff-
    erent than they are today. Guns were necessary for protection in a wilderness called Amer-
    ica. Neither was there any desire for warfare having just come out of the Revoluntionary
    War.

    2) If I wanted to kill someone,there are many other ways to do it--a gun just makes doing the
    job quicker.

    3) Those with authority calling for gun control are usually on the other side of protection(pol-
    ticians,gov't officials,corporate heads,those with some sort of local authority) and expect
    that protection to be there when they're threatened. John Q. Public? He's on his own.

    4) The guns that would be taken away would be those that belong to John Q. Public. In effect,
    no one would have a right to defend themselves in a fair manner.It's about who's doing
    the control.


    It's nice to think that we could all get along without having to arm ourselves,but there are
    those(in every country) that think they have the right to take from others as they please
    whenever they feel like it. As another member rightly pointed out,criminals don't get their
    guns in a legal manner.


    John
    Last edited by pengeezer; September 26th, 2015 at 04:27 PM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Yes, I understand.
    I get both sides of this, I really do.

    There's the,
    "What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?", that HughC nicely summarized.

    Verses the,
    'if guns are banned only the criminals will have them' /
    "the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that stonerman33 also nicely put forward.

    What I'm saying is that this is a never ending rhetorical argument that blows up every 6 weeks or so when there's yet another mass shooting that, I think, can be solved by a country wide referendum.

    Basically, let democracy work it out in a no holes barred, 2 go in, 1 comes out fight for gun freedom or gun control.

    Power to the people; right on.

    Cheers,
    Noel
    We don't do "country-wide referendums". Either you aren't American or (if you are) you didn't pay attention in civics.

    - When the Clinton administration enacted the "assault weapon" ban, the country threw out the majority party that enacted it.
    - When the issue reached the Supreme Court (several times), the intent of the wording was made perfectly clear.
    - The overwhelming majority of States have loosened restrictions on public possession (usually concealed).

    The American people have worked it out, many times. A vocal minority keeps bringing it back up as if the discussion hasn't taken place yet. That's simply not true. They just don't like the result.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    We don't do "country-wide referendums". Either you aren't American or (if you are) you didn't pay attention in civics.

    - When the Clinton administration enacted the "assault weapon" ban, the country threw out the majority party that enacted it.
    - When the issue reached the Supreme Court (several times), the intent of the wording was made perfectly clear.
    - The overwhelming majority of States have loosened restrictions on public possession (usually concealed).

    The American people have worked it out, many times. A vocal minority keeps bringing it back up as if the discussion hasn't taken place yet. That's simply not true. They just don't like the result.



    WELL SAID! The problem is the minority bring it up again and again and outsiders looking in that see our leftist media pushing the minority agenda on the subject. No disrespect to original poster but he has no skin in the game....

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by bamapendude View Post
    We don't do "country-wide referendums". Either you aren't American or (if you are) you didn't pay attention in civics.

    - When the Clinton administration enacted the "assault weapon" ban, the country threw out the majority party that enacted it.
    - When the issue reached the Supreme Court (several times), the intent of the wording was made perfectly clear.
    - The overwhelming majority of States have loosened restrictions on public possession (usually concealed).

    The American people have worked it out, many times. A vocal minority keeps bringing it back up as if the discussion hasn't taken place yet. That's simply not true. They just don't like the result.



    WELL SAID! The problem is the minority bring it up again and again and outsiders looking in that see our leftist media pushing the minority agenda on the subject. No disrespect to original poster but he has no skin in the game....
    American people influence domestic policy by who they vote for, domestic policies influence foreign policies and US foreign policies affect the entire world so, to a degree, we all have a bit of "skin in the game". The shock waves Trump has sent around the world in what is a purely domestic campaign at present proves this. While the US is the world's leading power I think we all want to see good policy choices at all levels, the issue is what "good" is. On that you have to ask the question : Does a domestic pro gun policy/culture make the US more inclined to military intervention ?

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by bamapendude View Post
    No disrespect to original poster but he has no skin in the game....
    Quite right, I have no skin in the game. It wouldn't bother me if you collectively banned every private gun in the US or if gun related death in the US went up by an order of magnitude.

    I kicked the tread off because I couldn't get my head around why, post a mass shooting, the left talks up gun reform, but then almost never talks about repealing the 2nd.

    Given that this thread has been active for around 8 months plenty of other people have been interested enough to exchange views to the point that I now have a better understanding of the body politics' view on the gun issue. As a bonus, I also have a better understanding of how your constitutional amendment process works.

    I guess, and no disrespect intended here, I was interested in US gun violence kind of like the way David Attenborough is interested in the natural world. It's just too fascinating to look away.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Yes, I understand.
    I get both sides of this, I really do.

    There's the,
    "What should come first, personal rights or community rights ?", that HughC nicely summarized.

    Verses the,
    'if guns are banned only the criminals will have them' /
    "the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that stonerman33 also nicely put forward.

    What I'm saying is that this is a never ending rhetorical argument that blows up every 6 weeks or so when there's yet another mass shooting that, I think, can be solved by a country wide referendum.

    Basically, let democracy work it out in a no holes barred, 2 go in, 1 comes out fight for gun freedom or gun control.

    Power to the people; right on.

    Cheers,
    Noel
    We are not a Democracy

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by stonerman33 View Post
    The 2nd amendment was originally in place for the people to rise up against a tyrannical government, and as the governments firearms have evolved, so have "the people's."

    It's already against the law to murder someone. It's against the law to shoot up a school. It's against the law to shoot pigeons off your neighbors roof in the city limits. The laws are only useful if they are enforced and enforced consistently. Only the law abiding will bother to abide by the law, so you're "infringing" on the good people by enacting more stringent gun control laws. The bad guy who wants a gun is going to find one illegally, but we knew that would happen as the bad guy doesn't care about the law.

    Violent crime rates have DECREASED fairly dramatically since the mid 80s as concealed carry laws were enacted across the nation, despite what some anti-gun groups claim. Read the statistics for yourself, they are in black and white from the FBI.

    I grew up in a pretty safe small town in Wisconsin, the son of a career cop. Guns and hunting have always been part of my life, and remains a hobby I share with both of my parents. We also take our safety seriously. My dad has put a lot of the previously mentioned "bad guys" behind bars in his 30+ years wearing a badge. Some of them hold grudges.

    If anything is at fault in our system, it's the failure of individual states to submit mental health records to the background check system. It's hard to keep the guns away from the crazies of the state isn't submitting those records to the database.

    In the end, the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, and I refuse to hide behind a garbage can waiting for him to show up.
    THIS. ALL DAY LONG. THIS.

    Thank God someone has some common sense in regards to gun laws. I don't even need to read the rest.
    Three old hunters were walking through the woods one day. One looks over and says, "Windy, isn't it?" Another says, "I thought it was Thursday." The third says, "Me too! The heck with hunting, let's go grab a beer!"

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Ok, so to summarise, can't win, don't try.

    As a non-American I didn't realize that the US doesn't have country wide referenda. So I guess to get any constitutional admendments through you'd have to wrangle all of the 50 states. Now it all makes sense why it's impossible to change direction on gun control.

    I wonder how this will unfold over the next couple of hundred years as weapons become ever more sophisticated?

    I'll end all this with a quote Arnie in The Terminator film, "Plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range".

    Cheers
    Noel

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by duckmcf View Post
    Ok, so to summarise, can't win, don't try.

    As a non-American I didn't realize that the US doesn't have country wide referenda. So I guess to get any constitutional admendments through you'd have to wrangle all of the 50 states. Now it all makes sense why it's impossible to change direction on gun control.

    I wonder how this will unfold over the next couple of hundred years as weapons become ever more sophisticated?

    I'll end all this with a quote Arnie in The Terminator film, "Plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range".

    Cheers
    Noel
    I thought you didn't have a side in this issue

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